I will add these clips to the mix for your consideration. They show who put what in Jesus' mouth and how Christianity has been manipulated. The first which is part of the second speaks to my Gnostic Christian label and the second shows my view of religions overall and the Noble Lie that I think we and our governments should rescind. The third clip speaks to the reason that religions were invented in the first place as it shows why social control was required for city states that had to deal with the reality of finite resources. I see these city states as led by a timocratic king who through the religion that he would have created, also realized that there had to be a tyrannical part to his benevolent duty and created a religion to be just that.
He would have to create his religion as expressed through his high priest/tyrant who would live by the first commandment of God, place no one above me as the enforcer of his King/God's rules and laws while still obeying his King. The larger Roman system would later assume the same system through the Noble Lie. First through Flavian and later through Constantine.
Again--in your arrogance--you use the words of man to try and divine the mind of God?
Look to His creation, not only to man.
I have.
I conclude that we live in the best of all possible worlds given all the conditions and getting better without God.
There's some interpretations that Hell doesn't exist, or that Satan will be redeemed in the end of days. Those tend to be newer groups and Adventists. But it does provide a framework for some people's thinking.
Also, you have to look at ha-Satan is literally translated as the accuser, and his traditional role can be explicitly seen in the Book of Job. You really have to look into the history of Satan, and jaunt even into the Islamic tradition to get a firm grasp on the character. There's really no definitive view of "Satan," sans there's a lot of mystery on the big "why's" when you look into such arguments.
Yes. It is harder to get a handle on any of the biblical characters nowadays.
Speaking of Job. You reminded me to put this up. I would have done it sooner by the ban clan was on me for a bit.
Christians are too religious to follow their moral sense and spiritual natures. Religion is directing your morals instead of your God given intelligence, moral sense and spiritual nature. I urge you to follow the teachings of spiritual teachers like Bishop Spong. A moral man.
Galileo -- "I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use."
Job 2; 3 And the LORD said unto Satan: 'Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a whole-hearted and an upright man, one that feareth God, and shunneth evil? and he still holdeth fast his integrity, although thou didst move Me against him, to destroy him without cause.
Fellow believers and Gnostic Christians like me; if you are a literalist or fundamental Christian or idol worship the God you have found in the Bible, I urge you to think of the story of Job and note from the wording that God is being manipulated by Satan. Satan bid God to move against Job without just cause and God did just that. God let Satan manipulate him.
I know that your mind set is to think that God is controlling Satan but as the wording and God’s actions clearly shows, this is not so. Satan ruled God that day.
Psa 5: 5 For Thou art not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness; evil shall not sojourn with Thee. 6 The boasters shall not stand in Thy sight; Thou hatest all workers of iniquity. 4 For you are not a God who delights in wickedness; evil may not dwell with you.
As Job 2;3 shows, evil definitely dwells in God and definitely sojourn.
Some of you will say that regardless of the immorality of God’s actions, you can ignore them as you have a new covenant with Jesus. I see this as a cop out on your part. Jesus was not born divine. He had to become divine as we all must according to scriptures. These say he was a Rabbi only and had to force his apotheosis the way we all must through seeking God.
Job 25; 4 How then can man be just with God? Or how can he be clean that is born of a woman?
Hebrew 5; 8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
If a man did what God did to Job, Christians would soundly condemn that man yet you elevate God for doing the same immoral actions. You do so because your fear death and crave heaven but your poor moral position insures that hell will be your end result as immoral souls do not earn heaven. Let evil be in your heart as God does but remember that recognizing it is what is important. Not the fact that it is there.
Do you realize that your morality has been compromised by religion and that you are not following the law of God that is written on your heart?
You are giving God a pass when you should be giving him a fail, ---- just as you would give an evil man?
Let your spiritual nature guide you. Not a corrupted religion.
Why does Jesus the shepherd leave his flock at the mercy of a Super Wolf?
Scriptures say that God gave Satan/Super Wolf dominion over the earth and the power to deceive all of us on this world.
Jesus often used the shepherd and sheep analogy in scriptures.
Following that analogy and the fact that Jesus has been gone for some time now, one must wonder why, if our souls are so important to Jesus, he has left us and past generations at Satan’s mercy.
No shepherd I ever heard of would be so irresponsible to his duty to his flock.
Especially since scriptures tell us that more sheep will be taken by Satan than protected by the shepherd.
Another breach of duty, FMPOV, is that Satan has been sentenced to hell by God, yet justice delayed is considered justice denied by most and God is denying mankind that justice.
I appreciate the free will argument that some might put but our free will was rescinded by God the moment he gave Satan the power to deceive us against our will. That situation is depicted somewhat in this clip which speaks to God letting Satan have his way with us.
Your choice seems to be secular law over God's so we have no argument.
My choice is not to have men making the laws of God.
That is not man's place.
Yet God is not around to make any new laws. Cloning and stem cell research being two areas that have come up lately.
The latest research also confirms that most of what is in scriptures are not from God in the first place.
I will add these clips to the mix for your consideration. They show who put what in Jesus' mouth and how Christianity has been manipulated. The first which is part of the second speaks to my Gnostic Christian label and the second shows my view of religions overall and the Noble Lie that I think we and our governments should rescind. The third clip speaks to the reason that religions were invented in the first place as it shows why social control was required for city states that had to deal with the reality of finite resources. I see these city states as led by a timocratic king who through the religion that he would have created, also realized that there had to be a tyrannical part to his benevolent duty and created a religion to be just that.
He would have to create his religion as expressed through his high priest/tyrant who would live by the first commandment of God, place no one above me as the enforcer of his King/God's rules and laws while still obeying his King. The larger Roman system would later assume the same system through the Noble Lie. First through Flavian and later through Constantine.
Depends on how you define "moral." Is goodness loved by God because it is good or is it good because it is loved by God? If God loved raping babies, would it be amoral to not rape babies?
This is mostly done by non-believers and secular law makers and even many believers. The whole world has rejected the morality of God’s law.
It's true that people not of a religion are more apt to criticize it. You don't see many Muslims saying all of Islam is immoral, for example. But, I don't see why this fact is anything other than self-evident.
Believers say that God’s laws are moral; yet very few believers are trying to push for adoption of God’s laws by secular governments.
I am not sure how you define "few." That fact that prostitution is illegal in the US, for example, is do primarily to its Jedo-Christ heritage. Secular laws of a society tend to reflect its moral values.
If believers believed that God’s laws are moral, it follows that they would be trying to have them implemented by governments. Strangely, they do not.
Well, some "believes" feel it is amoral to force others to be moral. I think it depends on what kind of believer they are, the kind that would want to indoctrinate others at sword point or not.
Should believers demand that secular law use God’s punishments where those few laws are basically identical?
Are we talking about God's laws or the laws of believers? Shouldn't God be enforcing His own laws? Why does He need believers to do it for Him?
Seems to me God should enforce God's laws, and man should enforce man's laws.
I agree with your last.
The fact that God does not speaks volumes as to his sense of justice.
Your choice seems to be secular law over God's so we have no argument.
Person A believes it is right to tell a lie that will prevent someone from being hurt. Person B believes truth more important, regardless of the trauma it may cause.
Person A believes people should have freedoms even if they endanger themselves. Person B believes that people need to be denied freedom to protect them.
Who is moral in each of these situations? Everybody. They are making decisions based on their morals.
Our literature is rife with criticisms of God’s laws denouncing them as immoral.
This is mostly done by non-believers and secular law makers and even many believers. The whole world has rejected the morality of God’s law.
Satan shall deceive the whole world. That is scripture.
Yeah, this isn't trying to incite a flame war at all.
Laws cannot be moral. The OT laws are extreme and the punishments are at times barbaric. The "laws" I obey are the two set forth in the NT, and from those I derive my morals.
If believers believed that God’s laws are moral, it follows that they would be trying to have them implemented by governments.
Unless they also believe, as scripture tells us, that the laws of man are separate from the laws of God.
Sounds like you believe that secular laws are superior to God's laws and punishments so we have no argument. Nice.
You say you follow the two of the many laws in the N T.
Place no one above me would be your first law then.
Who is " me "?
Is naming a God not idol worship?
The Jews and others seem to think it is and if all you have done is past the bible pages on a golden calf, you may have hidden the calf but it's shape is quite apparent and that is idol worship in my book.
Seeking and demanding sanctity is one of the main five best rules of morality.
Where are you getting this stuff? Are you making it up? It's as if you just decided from nowhere "there are five best rules of morality".
In another thread, you stated the thread with God does not follow the "first principle of morality."
How can people even engage you, when you're so deep in your own ideology, people can't even address the starting point of your positions.
I don't what the five best rules of morality are, so you lost me right there. You probably lost the rest of your audience as well because they don't know the "five best rules of morality." My position is that there are no best rules of morality, and there certainly aren't five esteemed ones.
What if I wrote to you, there are
---three basic rules of thought?
---five basic tenants of philosophy?
---seven principles of hope?
---ten methodologies of love?
---four rules of dying?
Do you have a clue as to what any of these are? You shouldn't, because I just made them up.
But if I expounded personally on each of those strands of thought, and pursued my own line of reasoning for years and years, I might be so deep in my own ideologies, I neglect to realize:
"Oh wait, people don't even understand my starting positions"
Like I wrote before, I don't believe there are five rules of morality anymore than I believe there are two types of hope. I anticipate this is true for pretty much the rest of your audience on this site.
So if the rest of your thoughts/analysis is based on the sacred "five best rules of morality" that your audience doesn't know, you can be sure you won't get good quality debate on these forums.
Yes and should all be venerated by their hierarchical value to the survival of the species and that means putting women ahead of men regardless of color.
There's that assumption again, that we should do what leads to a greater perpetuation of the species. That's an important factor in moral decision making, but it's not the only one. Quality of life, for instance, of the people who have to live as a part of that species is a major factor, and the quality of life of a group of people who are considered second class citizens is usually not as good as it should be.
Correct yet that is what religions and government have put in place.
We are losing our role as hunter and provider and you would also give up your role as protector.
Yes I would, because the world has changed. Hunter, provider, gatherer, protector are all roles that are no longer necessary in this world. There is nothing moral about clinging to traditions. What is moral is the equal treatment of all human beings. Women deserve every right that men have, and it is the antiquated opinion that you are displaying that is preventing it.
Simply put: Gender roles, as defined by tradition and tradition alone, are obsolete.
Would you have women give up their place in the lifeboats to men?
Would you have white people give up their place in the lifeboats for black people? Equal treatment is equal. People are people.
Yes and should all be venerated by their hierarchical value to the survival of the species and that means putting women ahead of men regardless of color.
Thanks for the red hearing and deflection. The mark of someone who has lost the argument.
Women are persons ("animal with reason") and should be treated as such, and should have the same duties (and rights) as men.
As for the lifeboat hypothetical situation, treat the persons in the situation as persons, and not as men, women, children, black, asian, beautiful, rich, etc. What applies to a man applies to a woman when it comes to moral, because it applies to every person. You don't throw a man out of a lifeboat to make room for a woman as much as you don't throw a woman or a children out to make room for anyone else.
You must be Italian and related to that ferry captain whose ship is still aground.
I have.
I conclude that we live in the best of all possible worlds given all the conditions and getting better without God.
Is that what you see?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jbkSRLYSojo
BTW, I did not claim to know the laws of God.
Regards
DL
Yes. It is harder to get a handle on any of the biblical characters nowadays.
Speaking of Job. You reminded me to put this up. I would have done it sooner by the ban clan was on me for a bit.
Have a peek and see what you think.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=9441315#post9441315
Regards
DL
Christians are too religious to follow their moral sense and spiritual natures. Religion is directing your morals instead of your God given intelligence, moral sense and spiritual nature. I urge you to follow the teachings of spiritual teachers like Bishop Spong. A moral man.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6AfFcAmx-Ro&feature=relmfu
Galileo -- "I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use."
Job 2; 3 And the LORD said unto Satan: 'Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a whole-hearted and an upright man, one that feareth God, and shunneth evil? and he still holdeth fast his integrity, although thou didst move Me against him, to destroy him without cause.
Fellow believers and Gnostic Christians like me; if you are a literalist or fundamental Christian or idol worship the God you have found in the Bible, I urge you to think of the story of Job and note from the wording that God is being manipulated by Satan. Satan bid God to move against Job without just cause and God did just that. God let Satan manipulate him.
I know that your mind set is to think that God is controlling Satan but as the wording and God’s actions clearly shows, this is not so. Satan ruled God that day.
Psa 5: 5 For Thou art not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness; evil shall not sojourn with Thee. 6 The boasters shall not stand in Thy sight; Thou hatest all workers of iniquity. 4 For you are not a God who delights in wickedness; evil may not dwell with you.
As Job 2;3 shows, evil definitely dwells in God and definitely sojourn.
Some of you will say that regardless of the immorality of God’s actions, you can ignore them as you have a new covenant with Jesus. I see this as a cop out on your part. Jesus was not born divine. He had to become divine as we all must according to scriptures. These say he was a Rabbi only and had to force his apotheosis the way we all must through seeking God.
Job 25; 4 How then can man be just with God? Or how can he be clean that is born of a woman?
Hebrew 5; 8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
If a man did what God did to Job, Christians would soundly condemn that man yet you elevate God for doing the same immoral actions. You do so because your fear death and crave heaven but your poor moral position insures that hell will be your end result as immoral souls do not earn heaven. Let evil be in your heart as God does but remember that recognizing it is what is important. Not the fact that it is there.
Do you realize that your morality has been compromised by religion and that you are not following the law of God that is written on your heart?
You are giving God a pass when you should be giving him a fail, ---- just as you would give an evil man?
Let your spiritual nature guide you. Not a corrupted religion.
Regards
DL
Scriptures say that God gave Satan/Super Wolf dominion over the earth and the power to deceive all of us on this world.
Jesus often used the shepherd and sheep analogy in scriptures.
Following that analogy and the fact that Jesus has been gone for some time now, one must wonder why, if our souls are so important to Jesus, he has left us and past generations at Satan’s mercy.
No shepherd I ever heard of would be so irresponsible to his duty to his flock.
Especially since scriptures tell us that more sheep will be taken by Satan than protected by the shepherd.
Another breach of duty, FMPOV, is that Satan has been sentenced to hell by God, yet justice delayed is considered justice denied by most and God is denying mankind that justice.
I appreciate the free will argument that some might put but our free will was rescinded by God the moment he gave Satan the power to deceive us against our will. That situation is depicted somewhat in this clip which speaks to God letting Satan have his way with us.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z1BzP1wr234&feature=youtu.be
This clip is just to show what some think of the shepherd analogy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HFw5TsAi1Mk&feature=related
Can you shed some light on these two issues for me?
Regards
DL
Yet God is not around to make any new laws. Cloning and stem cell research being two areas that have come up lately.
The latest research also confirms that most of what is in scriptures are not from God in the first place.
I will add these clips to the mix for your consideration. They show who put what in Jesus' mouth and how Christianity has been manipulated. The first which is part of the second speaks to my Gnostic Christian label and the second shows my view of religions overall and the Noble Lie that I think we and our governments should rescind. The third clip speaks to the reason that religions were invented in the first place as it shows why social control was required for city states that had to deal with the reality of finite resources. I see these city states as led by a timocratic king who through the religion that he would have created, also realized that there had to be a tyrannical part to his benevolent duty and created a religion to be just that.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oR02ciandvg&feature=BFa&list=PLCBF574D134B912A5
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qrMtRm3b8MU&feature=autoplay&list=PLCBF574D134B912A5&playnext=1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ne1wIEGnPWo
I see the King/God as having to have the morals shown in the Haigt clip.
http://blog.ted.com/2008/09/17/the_real_differ/
He would have to create his religion as expressed through his high priest/tyrant who would live by the first commandment of God, place no one above me as the enforcer of his King/God's rules and laws while still obeying his King. The larger Roman system would later assume the same system through the Noble Lie. First through Flavian and later through Constantine.
http://www.simchajtv.com/movie-secrets-of-christianity-selling-christianity/
Regards
DL
I agree with your last.
The fact that God does not speaks volumes as to his sense of justice.
Your choice seems to be secular law over God's so we have no argument.
Regards
DL
Thanks for-------------
Regards
DL
Spam infraction.
Too hard a question for your small mind I guess and that is why you went for the person instead of the issue at hand. Can't justify your God I see.
Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt
Regards
DL
Flame infraction.
Rather semantic but ok.
So who has the best laws?
Regards
DL
Sounds like you believe that secular laws are superior to God's laws and punishments so we have no argument. Nice.
You say you follow the two of the many laws in the N T.
Place no one above me would be your first law then.
Who is " me "?
Is naming a God not idol worship?
The Jews and others seem to think it is and if all you have done is past the bible pages on a golden calf, you may have hidden the calf but it's shape is quite apparent and that is idol worship in my book.
Regards
DL
I have posted this before.
http://blog.ted.com/2008/09/17/the_real_differ/
Perhaps you missed it.
Can you come up with a better set of rules?
Regards
DL
Correct yet that is what religions and government have put in place.
That should be reversed. Right?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqN8EYIIR3g&feature=related
Regards
DL
Not even worthy of an answer.
Regards
DL
Infraction for spam and trolling.
Yes and should all be venerated by their hierarchical value to the survival of the species and that means putting women ahead of men regardless of color.
Thanks for the red hearing and deflection. The mark of someone who has lost the argument.
Regards
DL
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2087704/Costa-Concordia-Captain-Francesco-Schettino-I-left-I-FELL-lifeboat.html
Regards
DL