Hi all, I've been playing Bogles for a while now and want to switch up to zoo with no goyfs. I like the idea of small zoo the best utilizing Experiment One and burning tree emissary. This is what I have so far...can you help me out?
First off I would *not* recommend playing Zoo without Goyf. With that out of the way I highly suggest you cut all the BTEs for Ghor-Clan Rampager as that guy is the only way you're getting through anything big. Flinthoof Boar is also pretty sweet and I can guarantee it will do more work that Hellspark Elemental. Finally cut one of the Paths (you almost never want the fourth Path, it's not Swords to Plowshares) and the Lightning Helix for Boros Charm; this card is 4 damage for two mana and occasionally you'll tyrannosaurus wreck people with Rampager + Charm.
I have a few thoughts on this, which for brevity I've listed in point for below:
1. Voice of Resurgence is garbage. You're better off burning it for warmth in the winter than playing it in a game of Magic. Compare it to Qasali Pridemage, which is a better attacker (especially in multiples) and helps with Blood Moon. Or compare it to Tarmogoyf - which if we go by TCGplayer mid price - is around 13.333 times better.
2. Where are your Wild Nacatls? Nacatl is *the* Zoo card. There is no reason not to run her.
3. You shouldn't be playing Doran and Anafenza is kind of bad right now as well. You'll be better off with Loxodon Smiter as he is a beating against UWR control and BGx decks.
4.Your mana base seems really off to me. You don't need so much black and I'd hesitate to play any less than 12 fetch lands in a Dark or Domain Zoo right now.
This is my current Zoo list I'm playing at the moment. I need to get Goyfs and Hierarch's but I'm hoping they'll get reprinted soon and then I'll pick them up. Any suggestions or advice would be helpful. Turn 3 Siege Rhino is always fun.
Anafenza is just better than Doran. The incidental graveyard hate and +1/+1 counters you get off her let your Goyfs and Rhinos always win in combat and means you don't have to fetch a lot of green for ScOoze. It also makes the exalted from the Noble Hierarchs matter a little less and opens up spots to run Abrupt Decays in the main deck by cutting them. I'm also curious as to the sideboard Choke, I'm more of a fan of Boil myself since it can't really get removed.
Yea, unfortunately I don't have access to Goyf or Hierarch...I'm not trying to do budget but those are too much...I thought smiters would be an appropriate substitute...would cutting 4 voices for 3 huntmasters and another land make sense?
And besides Hierarchs exalted trigger, are mana dorks even necessary?
If you want a four drop splash black off Godless Shrine and Blood Crypt to play Siege Rhino. This also opens you up to Abrupt Decay which is very good.
I don't think you really want BBE in this deck. a 3/2 haste that probably cascades into a 1 drop for 4 mana isn't good value to me. You're also on 21 lands and could have a hard time casting her.
Hey guys! I piloted the Siege Zoo deck to a Top 8 finish at a prePTQ in Edmonton, AB last night (Jan 3 2015). It was a 5 round, 30 player event where I went 3-1-1 in the Swiss, losing to UW control round 4 and drawing in round 5. Decklist and round results follow:
Round 1: 2-0 Against UWR Geist/Delver
I don't even remember game one, he didn't cast anything other than serum visions until turn four and I had two Rhinos in hand. In game two I stuck a turn 3 Anafenza who beat in for 16 damage over the next four turns while he again just cantripped. After he got a Young Pyromancer out and doubled bolted Anafenza I cast Rhino and he scooped.
Round 2; 2-1 Against Affinity
This matchup is pretty good for the deck. We have enough interaction that if they don't get the nuts draw we'll win by beating in with one or two creatures. Won game one on the play, keeping a hand with Kird Ape, Stomping Grounds, and 5 removal spells. Game two I brought in Abrupt Decay, Wear // Tear, and Stony Silence. Never saw them and lost turn three to the nuts draw. Game three I kept my boarding the same and kept a hand of Wild Nacatl, 2 Helixs, Bolt, Decay, Wooded Foothills. Drew a land turn two, and then drew mostly removal spells and goyfs before he scooped.
Round 3: 2-1 Against UWR Control
This deck can't deal with Anafenza and Geist on the board at the same time, which happened games one and three. Smiter also did some heavy lifting when it was obvious he was holding up counter magic. On game two I got beat to death with a Snap as I flooded out. I didn't side for game two thinking he was UWR Geist as well, but sided in Abrupt Decays and one Stubborn denial for game three after I caught on.
Round 4: 1-2 Againt UW Control
Won game one on the play, mull to five with a turn one Kird Ape, turn two Tarmogoyf, turn three Geist. Game two I flooded out completely and never saw anything other than one Nacatl and some burn. Died to Colonnade. Game three went better, but I drew every land in the deck when he was at 3 and never saw a burn spell or Rhino. Four copies of Finks were his best friend game three, gaining him 10 life.
Round 5: Drew in to Top 8 with Affinity
It was almost 8:30 pm at this point so we did the math and decided to draw in to the top 8 so we could go get some food. We played a game one anyway, and I'm still confident the matchup is very good for us.
Top 8 Round 1: 0-2 vs UW Control
Lost game one on the play to flooding out. Three times in game two I brainfarted and forgot to fetch black mana to cast Anafenza and Rhino. The third time this happened I just conceded because it was 10:00 pm and I wanted to go home.
Overall Thoughts:
This has been my favourite version of zoo to play. There is not much more fun than having your opponent Probe or Thoughtseize you and seeing a bunch of Geists and Rhinos. For my next event I would take Stubborn Denial and Ajani Vengeant out of the Sideboard and put in two Loxodon Smiters. He is the best creature against the control decks. There was another player there playing Domain/Siege Zoo as well with Ghor-Clan Rampagers and Noble Hierarchs and from the games I saw they were pretty underwhilming.
That's the reason I run 11 removal spells. I've found that Deathrite Shaman and Scavenging Ooze are not a big deal if they get Pathed or Bolted turn 1 or turn 2. It's also part of the reason why I have my own Oozes in the sideboard. If my opponent is putting in all the effort to devolve my KotR, I'm going to use my own Ooze(s) to exile their graveyard and grow my own. And should the KotR be left alone, I'm happy to fight them over creatures in the graveyard with my own Ooze where I'm not losing too many resources with a Vial up.
On another note, having a Mirran Crusader and an Ooze out is backbreaking to the guy playing 'Goyf if they can't remove either of them.
I've also been wondering if Sublime Archangel has a place in Knights deck over Elsepth if she's out of your budget. Obviously she's not as good but provides a similar effect with exalted the turn she comes out and the next turn it's bonkers when she flies in. If you're playing Wilt-Leaf Liege and having a Vial up to 4 you can Vial her in EoT for pseudo-haste.
I'm honoured you want to add my deck to the primer. Of course you can :).
Hey guys just wanted to jump in on the discussion regarding Boros Knights. My experience with a Boros list has always been the lack of powerful knights in R/W aside from Hero of Oxid Ridge and Hero of Bladehold (which can be played in GW or Mono White). I've found the Red splash most useful in a GW Vial based deck (i.e. my Naya Knights list) for the Bolt and the Helix. I've also found Bolt and Helix to be much more reliable removal over Chained to the Rocks as it does not restrict which lands I'm unable to sac to the Knight of the Reliquary.
I also have some more match up results for my Naya Knights vs. Merfolk:
Game 1: This one is easy. If you can play a Vial turn one and it goes uncountered you'll probably win. Spend your mana on removal spells to deal with Lords as they come out and use Qasali Pridemage aggressively to remove their Vials. Avoid tutoring up non-Plains and non-Forest cards (ie don't play them unless you absolutely need to) so you don't die to a Spreading Seas. Cards to watch out for: Counter spells.
Game 2: This is essentially Game 1 again where you side out your equipment, your Elspeth and a Knight of the White Orchid for a fourth Pridemage and 2 Brave the Elements. If they board in counter spells don't be afraid to tutor a Cavern of Souls. Spreading Seas is probably gone. Vapor Snag is pretty painful so keep a Vial set to 2 and another set to 3. Cards to watch out for: Vapor Snag, counter spells.
Game 3: Side your Knight of the White Orchid back in over a Brave the Elements and bring in your Thalias. Avoid playing non-Plains, non-Forest lands again but don't be afraid if you need to. Get your Knight Exemplars out fast and build up board presence. As long as you remove the merfolk lords as they are summoned, kill their Vials and keep Spreading Seas off your lands you're golden. This might sound like a lot but the deck can do it. Cards to watch out for: Vapor Snag, counter spells, Spreading Seas.
The mana base while ambitious, is fantastic at hitting the correct mana when I need it and the Lightning Helices/SoLaS do a fantastic job at recouping lost life from shocking myself on land.
Some recent results from playing my Naya Knights deck against BUG Midrange.
Game 1 is a breeze. Resolving an Aether Vial or Mirran Crusader is basically game over. The eleven removal spells eat away any board opposition. Watch out for Engineered Explosives and Thoughtseize.
Game 2 is mostly the same. Bringing in Thalia and Gaddock Teeg hurt pretty hard and Mirran Crusader seals the deal. Watch out for Engineered Explosives, Thoughtseize and only make sure you get both Knight Exemplars in while they're tapped out. Cavern of Souls is an all-star here.
Well, technically Humans, but mostly Knights. It's meant to be Knights and it came mostly from the Primer here, so I'm hoping this is the place to get a little fine-tuning advice.
The Champ isn't a knight but the only issue is he doesn't benefit from the Exemplar's good offices, but he can still be a beast.
Some of the deck reflects the limitations of my collection; I actually bought a few of the cards at the Store just before I sleeved it up for FNM. I'd like to play at least one more Aether Vial.
The 'board is a bit janky, in part because I had to grab a card from another deck to fill it up. The Bombs are primarily for token decks. The Flares proved useful but Oust might be better. Flare does work against Hexproof, it must be said.
First post on MTG Salvation, try to be kind.
You definitely want to be running 4 AEther Vials. As I've learned you want 4 or 0 of it. Also, why are you running Flagstones? Unless you have Knight of the Reliquary or multiples of it to Legend rule yourself, it doesn't do anything in the deck. I would suggest running the full 4 Cavern of Souls. 4 Stony Silence is a lot of sideboard hate for Affinity. Maybe go down to 2 and look at including Leonin Arbiter or Aven Mindcensor.
You make very good points. I will drop the two Lorwyn/Shadowmoor-block filter lands for another Flagstones of Trokair and a fourth AEther Vial. I will try and get some more fetch lands but they're not easy to come by where I live (they sell out the day an LGS takes them in) and are quite expensive. Sadly, the same goes for Horizon Canopy.
I have a sideboard consideration as well. Do you think Boros Charm would do well in there? Indestructibility to your team when lacking a Knight Exemplar at instant speed and has two kinda-relevant abilities: It's a pretty decent punch to the dome; and granting double strike to a potentially massive Knight of the Reliquary and/or Lorded/Exalted-out knight. This talk about indestructibility leads me to...
Sidenote question to people: What are your thoughts on running either Rootborn Defenses or Ready (Ready/Willing) in the board against the controlling board-wipes that hurt so badly?
Rootborn Defenses is far better than Ready (Ready/Willing). At the same CMC its coloured mana cost is less restrictive and if playing a Voice of Resurgence in the deck , or even making a 2/2 Knight with a Selesnya Charm, the populate mechanic is quite handy.
I'd also imagine the untap part of Ready is not-so-relevant in a Knights deck that doesn't want to swing in with everything every turn, and if you are you are probably indestructible to begin with thanks to Knight Exemplar.
However, unless your deck can support Rootborn Defenses to great success. I would play Gaddock Teeg because he straight up stops Wrath spells from being cast.
I started playing Magic in April of 2012 and I'm only now getting into Modern after playing a bit of Elf ramp decks. I've put together this Naya Knights deck after cracking a few Knights of the Reliquary in some old boosters I bought at a LGS. From playtesting it I've found it to be pretty decent but my playgroup is fairly casual so I'd like some advice on how to make it better. I'm aware that Naya is not optimal colours for a Knights deck but I'm quite fond of the red splash for Bolt and Helix as creature removal runs rampant in my playgroup and the direct damage to the dome polishes off nicely.
My end goal with this deck is to get it to a point where it performs/could perform decently at FNM while staying in Naya colours.
First off I would *not* recommend playing Zoo without Goyf. With that out of the way I highly suggest you cut all the BTEs for Ghor-Clan Rampager as that guy is the only way you're getting through anything big. Flinthoof Boar is also pretty sweet and I can guarantee it will do more work that Hellspark Elemental. Finally cut one of the Paths (you almost never want the fourth Path, it's not Swords to Plowshares) and the Lightning Helix for Boros Charm; this card is 4 damage for two mana and occasionally you'll tyrannosaurus wreck people with Rampager + Charm.
I have a few thoughts on this, which for brevity I've listed in point for below:
1. Voice of Resurgence is garbage. You're better off burning it for warmth in the winter than playing it in a game of Magic. Compare it to Qasali Pridemage, which is a better attacker (especially in multiples) and helps with Blood Moon. Or compare it to Tarmogoyf - which if we go by TCGplayer mid price - is around 13.333 times better.
2. Where are your Wild Nacatls? Nacatl is *the* Zoo card. There is no reason not to run her.
3. You shouldn't be playing Doran and Anafenza is kind of bad right now as well. You'll be better off with Loxodon Smiter as he is a beating against UWR control and BGx decks.
4.Your mana base seems really off to me. You don't need so much black and I'd hesitate to play any less than 12 fetch lands in a Dark or Domain Zoo right now.
Anafenza is just better than Doran. The incidental graveyard hate and +1/+1 counters you get off her let your Goyfs and Rhinos always win in combat and means you don't have to fetch a lot of green for ScOoze. It also makes the exalted from the Noble Hierarchs matter a little less and opens up spots to run Abrupt Decays in the main deck by cutting them. I'm also curious as to the sideboard Choke, I'm more of a fan of Boil myself since it can't really get removed.
If you want a four drop splash black off Godless Shrine and Blood Crypt to play Siege Rhino. This also opens you up to Abrupt Decay which is very good.
I don't think you really want BBE in this deck. a 3/2 haste that probably cascades into a 1 drop for 4 mana isn't good value to me. You're also on 21 lands and could have a hard time casting her.
2 Anafenza, the Foremost
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Geist of Saint Traft
1 Loxodon Smiter
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Kird Ape
4 Siege Rhino
4 Tribal Flames
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lightning Helix
3 Path to Exile
4 Windswept Heath
3 Arid Mesa
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Stomping Grounds
1 Temple Garden
1 Godless Shrine
1 Blood Crypt
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Breeding Pool
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Stony Silence
1 Wear//Tear
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Swan Song
1 Stubborn Denial
1 Timely Reinforcements
3 Aven Mindcensor
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Path to Exile
Round Results
Round 1: 2-0 Against UWR Geist/Delver
I don't even remember game one, he didn't cast anything other than serum visions until turn four and I had two Rhinos in hand. In game two I stuck a turn 3 Anafenza who beat in for 16 damage over the next four turns while he again just cantripped. After he got a Young Pyromancer out and doubled bolted Anafenza I cast Rhino and he scooped.
Round 2; 2-1 Against Affinity
This matchup is pretty good for the deck. We have enough interaction that if they don't get the nuts draw we'll win by beating in with one or two creatures. Won game one on the play, keeping a hand with Kird Ape, Stomping Grounds, and 5 removal spells. Game two I brought in Abrupt Decay, Wear // Tear, and Stony Silence. Never saw them and lost turn three to the nuts draw. Game three I kept my boarding the same and kept a hand of Wild Nacatl, 2 Helixs, Bolt, Decay, Wooded Foothills. Drew a land turn two, and then drew mostly removal spells and goyfs before he scooped.
Round 3: 2-1 Against UWR Control
This deck can't deal with Anafenza and Geist on the board at the same time, which happened games one and three. Smiter also did some heavy lifting when it was obvious he was holding up counter magic. On game two I got beat to death with a Snap as I flooded out. I didn't side for game two thinking he was UWR Geist as well, but sided in Abrupt Decays and one Stubborn denial for game three after I caught on.
Round 4: 1-2 Againt UW Control
Won game one on the play, mull to five with a turn one Kird Ape, turn two Tarmogoyf, turn three Geist. Game two I flooded out completely and never saw anything other than one Nacatl and some burn. Died to Colonnade. Game three went better, but I drew every land in the deck when he was at 3 and never saw a burn spell or Rhino. Four copies of Finks were his best friend game three, gaining him 10 life.
Round 5: Drew in to Top 8 with Affinity
It was almost 8:30 pm at this point so we did the math and decided to draw in to the top 8 so we could go get some food. We played a game one anyway, and I'm still confident the matchup is very good for us.
Top 8 Round 1: 0-2 vs UW Control
Lost game one on the play to flooding out. Three times in game two I brainfarted and forgot to fetch black mana to cast Anafenza and Rhino. The third time this happened I just conceded because it was 10:00 pm and I wanted to go home.
Overall Thoughts:
This has been my favourite version of zoo to play. There is not much more fun than having your opponent Probe or Thoughtseize you and seeing a bunch of Geists and Rhinos. For my next event I would take Stubborn Denial and Ajani Vengeant out of the Sideboard and put in two Loxodon Smiters. He is the best creature against the control decks. There was another player there playing Domain/Siege Zoo as well with Ghor-Clan Rampagers and Noble Hierarchs and from the games I saw they were pretty underwhilming.
On another note, having a Mirran Crusader and an Ooze out is backbreaking to the guy playing 'Goyf if they can't remove either of them.
I've also been wondering if Sublime Archangel has a place in Knights deck over Elsepth if she's out of your budget. Obviously she's not as good but provides a similar effect with exalted the turn she comes out and the next turn it's bonkers when she flies in. If you're playing Wilt-Leaf Liege and having a Vial up to 4 you can Vial her in EoT for pseudo-haste.
I'm honoured you want to add my deck to the primer. Of course you can :).
I also have some more match up results for my Naya Knights vs. Merfolk:
Game 1: This one is easy. If you can play a Vial turn one and it goes uncountered you'll probably win. Spend your mana on removal spells to deal with Lords as they come out and use Qasali Pridemage aggressively to remove their Vials. Avoid tutoring up non-Plains and non-Forest cards (ie don't play them unless you absolutely need to) so you don't die to a Spreading Seas. Cards to watch out for: Counter spells.
Game 2: This is essentially Game 1 again where you side out your equipment, your Elspeth and a Knight of the White Orchid for a fourth Pridemage and 2 Brave the Elements. If they board in counter spells don't be afraid to tutor a Cavern of Souls. Spreading Seas is probably gone. Vapor Snag is pretty painful so keep a Vial set to 2 and another set to 3. Cards to watch out for: Vapor Snag, counter spells.
Game 3: Side your Knight of the White Orchid back in over a Brave the Elements and bring in your Thalias. Avoid playing non-Plains, non-Forest lands again but don't be afraid if you need to. Get your Knight Exemplars out fast and build up board presence. As long as you remove the merfolk lords as they are summoned, kill their Vials and keep Spreading Seas off your lands you're golden. This might sound like a lot but the deck can do it. Cards to watch out for: Vapor Snag, counter spells, Spreading Seas.
Also an update to the list
4 Knight Exemplar
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Knight of the White Orchid
3 Mirran Crusader
3 Qasali Pridemage
4 Student of Warfare
SPELLS
4 AEther Vial
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
4 Path to Exile
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Lightning Helix
4 Temple Garden
2 Plains
3 Sacred Foundry
2 Stomping Ground
3 Arid Mesa
2 Cavern of Souls
2 Flagstones of Trokair
2 Forest
1 Gavony Township
2 Brave the Elements
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Kitchen Finks
1 Qasali Pridemage
3 Relic of Progenitus
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Stony Silence
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
The mana base while ambitious, is fantastic at hitting the correct mana when I need it and the Lightning Helices/SoLaS do a fantastic job at recouping lost life from shocking myself on land.
Game 1 is a breeze. Resolving an Aether Vial or Mirran Crusader is basically game over. The eleven removal spells eat away any board opposition. Watch out for Engineered Explosives and Thoughtseize.
Game 2 is mostly the same. Bringing in Thalia and Gaddock Teeg hurt pretty hard and Mirran Crusader seals the deal. Watch out for Engineered Explosives, Thoughtseize and only make sure you get both Knight Exemplars in while they're tapped out. Cavern of Souls is an all-star here.
Game 3 never happened.
More results to come against other decks.
You definitely want to be running 4 AEther Vials. As I've learned you want 4 or 0 of it. Also, why are you running Flagstones? Unless you have Knight of the Reliquary or multiples of it to Legend rule yourself, it doesn't do anything in the deck. I would suggest running the full 4 Cavern of Souls. 4 Stony Silence is a lot of sideboard hate for Affinity. Maybe go down to 2 and look at including Leonin Arbiter or Aven Mindcensor.
I have a sideboard consideration as well. Do you think Boros Charm would do well in there? Indestructibility to your team when lacking a Knight Exemplar at instant speed and has two kinda-relevant abilities: It's a pretty decent punch to the dome; and granting double strike to a potentially massive Knight of the Reliquary and/or Lorded/Exalted-out knight. This talk about indestructibility leads me to...
Rootborn Defenses is far better than Ready (Ready/Willing). At the same CMC its coloured mana cost is less restrictive and if playing a Voice of Resurgence in the deck , or even making a 2/2 Knight with a Selesnya Charm, the populate mechanic is quite handy.
I'd also imagine the untap part of Ready is not-so-relevant in a Knights deck that doesn't want to swing in with everything every turn, and if you are you are probably indestructible to begin with thanks to Knight Exemplar.
However, unless your deck can support Rootborn Defenses to great success. I would play Gaddock Teeg because he straight up stops Wrath spells from being cast.
I started playing Magic in April of 2012 and I'm only now getting into Modern after playing a bit of Elf ramp decks. I've put together this Naya Knights deck after cracking a few Knights of the Reliquary in some old boosters I bought at a LGS. From playtesting it I've found it to be pretty decent but my playgroup is fairly casual so I'd like some advice on how to make it better. I'm aware that Naya is not optimal colours for a Knights deck but I'm quite fond of the red splash for Bolt and Helix as creature removal runs rampant in my playgroup and the direct damage to the dome polishes off nicely.
My end goal with this deck is to get it to a point where it performs/could perform decently at FNM while staying in Naya colours.
3 Arid Mesa
2 Cavern of Souls
1 Fire-Lit Thicket
1 Flagstones of Trokair
2 Forest
1 Gavony Township
2 Plains
1 Rugged Prairie
3 Sacred Foundry
2 Stomping Ground
4 Temple Garden
4 Knight Exemplar
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Knight of the White Orchid
3 Mirran Crusader
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Student of Warfare
Artifacts
3 AEther Vial
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
Spells
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Lightning Helix
4 Path to Exile
2 Brave the Elements
2 Fiendslayer Paladin
2 Kitchen Finks
3 Relic of Progenitus
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Stony Silence
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben