Just a quick question regarding to Sygg, River Cutthroat in 2-headed giant.
The only post I could find was from back in 2009 and the rules got updated a couple times, hence
Question (with example) :
Does Sygg, River Cutthroat trigger when the two opposing players both lost ~2 life in a turn? (which means their team lost 4)
Effectively having "their" life totals drop more than 3.
How many non-rocks are you running in the deck? Because all this does is turn non-rocks into rocks that tap for 1.
That seems sub-par except for the synergy with Blinkmoth Urn or Winter Orb style things.
One quarter of the deck is non-rock artifacts.
Even if you're playing a vastly different list than mine, you'll have a lot of non-rock artifacts. (which doesn't even mean non-mana producing. Example: Krark-Clan Ironworks, Helm of Awakening, Ashnod's Altar)
And I didn't even count fringe-applications like an untapped LED or Myr Battlesphere tokens.
I'm unsure in which situations you find it bad, but at it's worst it's a rock that only taps 1 for Kozilek, not even including that the next Tormod's Crypt you play is a Mox. The only situations I can think of where it's truly horrible, are ones where most cards are. E.g Topdeck mode
Oh right, EDIT:
I'm playtesting Static Orb right now, and it's proven better than expected. With all the new toys we have it's really proving worthy.
I'd actually prefer them to bring 30 life total to the whole of commander. Not competitive only. I feel aggro is always getting the low end.
What's the reason for 40 life total anymore nowadays? Other than cushion control and combo? I'm sure bringing it to 30 would enhance casual play as well as competitive.
As for splitting banlists, no thanks and good luck with that.
I mean you guys are making it too easy for me. First ban tuck now 18 commander damage.
If I get a perfect hand in Scion someone dies turn 3-4 right now. How much easier does it need to be?
Saying stuff like this proves you don't understand competitive play and destroys your whole argument. If you have an urge to be arrogant, think twice.
Currently looking at adding Static Orb (and Blinkmoth Well, and perhaps re-add Blinkmoth Urn) to the list after testing as some cards are proving not as good. Static Orb could perfectly act as a second Winter Orb, whereas if casted post-kozilek can seal the game. (with or without 3-mana tap artifacts).
Also might re-enter Skullclamp into testing as I haven't played it since the tuck rule change and it weirdly works with our commander now. (Albeit you do have to shuffle your grave but that's ok)
But I have a feeling it might still be too weak.
I personally don't have that.
For cards that are obviously in your own favor, I find it easy to asses the value.
I actually have a little pet peeve that when people purposely don't play great cards in their deck because "they might help opponents more than me 1 chance in a 1000". But yeah, yolo right?
Warping Wail is an essential part of my deck. I've played it since its release, and it's one of those cards that comes out of left field in a colorless deck. The countering sorceries has been enough to justify its continuing inclusion.
The only other card I have experience with is Cloudpost. Don't play it unless you are on a budget. Even with the ability to copy it, there's neither enough Locus/copy lands in Commander nor plentiful colorless tutors to assemble them consistently. Even then, with all the other mana we can generate, Glimmerpost's life gain is more handy.
A card that's been useful for me lately is Walking Atlas... although it's more useful to me because I play with Kozilek, the Great Distortion at the helm... mainly because I like having friends... and I need to clear my hand often to keep up with its cast trigger.
As for Cloudpost, I tried running UrzaTron inthisdeck just in case I got lucky enough to land all 3 (or 2 and Map for the third). Never happened, so I took them out and put them in a green deck that can do it consistently. Scorched Ruins and Lotus Vale work fine, however.
Ok, so I havce playtested Warping Wail a little, and here is what it allowed me to do over a couple games:
- Was playing against Sedris Twin (or Grixis Twin if you prefer), he was about to enchant Deceiver Exarch with Splinter Twin for the combo win, I was the only one able to stop him by exiling the creature. The same would also work for Pestermite, so this card can be useful against Twin Combo.
- Counter many relevant sorceries: Exsanguinate against Black Big Mana, Tooth and Nail against a Jarad deck (he clearly was going for Mike and Trike), and many, many Wrath of God have been countered.
- The Eldrazi Scion may seem to be the least useful effect, but I have found it pretty handy in times. I used it once to prevent Metalworker dying from an edict effect so I had another creature to sacrifice instead, next turn I tapped Metalworker to cast Paradox Engine and won the game by drawing my entire deck with Kozilek and Ashnoid's Altar. I also used it many times EOT to create the token and get the 1 extra mana I needed on my turn to cast something, most of the time Kozilek himself.
Also, it may seem irrelevant (not tested yet), but it could make for a possible 1 mana less to cast Emrakul the Promised End by being an instant in the graveyard. Also, people won't be suspecting us to counter a spell in a colorless deck. I would say this is a really powerful and versatile card that would be worth a slot mainboard.
Thanks guys- I agree with pretty much all your comments, but I like to test cards I'm skeptical of just to make sure I'm not missing something. More than likely *posts, Arbiter, Crawlspace will get the chop, but always worth testing over a few games.
And you should test! It's really the only way to accurately measure card's power.
I wanted to run more combos, and a bit more stax than Juwdah's build.
There's a fairly long list of things I'm testing in this list:
Shimmer Myr - will see if its impactful enough. Iffy on it.
Silent Arbiter / Crawlspace - will depend whether any aggro decks come out. From what I've seen of my competitive meta its more than likely combo kills so these guys might come out.
Emrakul, the Promised End - Replaced Mindslaver.
Warping Wail - shuts down Mike and Trike and counters T&N, plus a lot of other terrifying Sorcery spells.
Glimmerpost/Cloudpost - Just testing these at this stage. Might not be worth it because I don't run Vesuva.
Ward of Bones - This just seems unreal in the deck.
Karn, Silver Golem - Adds a few infinites and brings some utility to stall up other peoples rocks.
Voltaic Construct - combos with Karn, Metalworker. Might not be enough to justify a slot on its own.
I'd like to add Cavern of Souls and Vesuva- might add them to my next order. My copy of Paradox Engine is already in the mail- will probably replace Storm Cauldron, but I like what Storm Cauldron does with Ward of Bones.
I haven't tested Ward of Bones in ages, tell me how that went!
And Warping Wail, as I keep getting closer and closer to including it. I'm always overlooking making an eldrazi token EOT to have that extra mana for a Kozi cast.
I really like Emrakul the Promised End. It's tutorable by Eye of Ugin/Sanctum of Ugin/Conduit of Ruin, and it's often been the only answer to some dire situations. It generally costs as much as Kozilek to cast and the 13/13 flyer is some really nice gravy in addition to the Mindslaver effect. You can get rid of troublesome generals (Maelstrom Wanderer, Memnarch, Leovold, Sigarda etc, etc) by attacking into Emrakul and choosing to letting it hit the graveyard. ...and of course the other evil things you can accomplish with Mindslaver. The extra turn is generally of little consequence, after the Mindslaver ravaging.
Personally, I don't run Blightsteel or Mindslaver anymore, but to each their own. They're very strong, I've just been eliminating the top of my curve wherever possible.
I'm glad I'm not the only one playing Magnifying Glass! Thought I might be crazy as players occasionally poke fun at what seems like an out of place card. It's been quite good for me. The flexibility of ramp or card draw, whatever the situation calls for, is really nice. I once went infinite with Basalt Monolith/Rings of Brighthearth without a wincon and the Magnifying Glass let me dig 4 cards deeper and I found it! Works well with Unwinding Clock and will of course play nicely with Paradox Engine.
Some of your cuts I disagree with, but nothing too shocking, just personal preferences. The only addition I find somewhat controversial is Scrap Trawler. I'm thinking it'll be very disappointing without Krark-Clan Ironworks and merely okay with it.
Alright, you convinced me to test Emrakul for sure.
As for Magnifying Glass, yeah it definitely has it's moments, but on average I feel like it's a 3-mana tap for 1, which isn't anything near good. I will keep testing it though, as it does surprise often.
As for the cuts, which ones do you disagree with the most and why? They can come back, some often do. I'm curious to your opinion on the matter.
I haven't drawn Scrap Trawler too many times yet so I'm still a bit uncertain, but analyzing different board states I had while testing I couldn't imagine getting enough out of it without Krark-Clan, so you might be right. I will continue testing it though.
Playtesting proved that Paradox Engine is insane (big surprise)
Had a Sol Ring turn one, Hedron Archive turn two, Paradox Engine turn three followed up by a Mox Opal and I had Spine of Ish-Sah and Krark-Clan Ironworks in my hand, ready to win the game. Someone cast Beast Within on it in response to Mox Opal though so big bummer. What I love about it is that with a great-but-not-magical christmas land hand like that it can easily flat out win the game and that's amazing.
I had two games where I drew Staff of Domination and in both it was sub-par and I always had better options available. I still don't get the hype. And at this point some amazing synergies need to start happenning with it (that don't include Metalworker) for me to keep it in. But hey, in it's defence, I only drew it in two games so I definitely need to playtest it way more.
Hey Juwdah, you mentioned earlier you were playing an updated version of the deck, and I am highly interested in seeing the list you play... Would you mind updating it here/sending a link? Or at least listing the changes you have done??
Sure thing, I'll post my list I'm going to test next week.
-1 Wayfarer's Bauble:
Simply not good enough, too much investment for too little/slow ramp.
-1 Blinkmoth Urn:
Acting a bit slow lately, have found it to be an easy target for opponents as well. Sits dead in hand on occassion when other artifact decks are around. Currently replaced by Paradox Engine (which will undoubtably do better)
-1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre:
He's been great for a long while, but this deck was in high need of cutting more big fat mana. His newer self is better at removal, where Ulamog was used most for. (besides his pressuring presence, ofcourse)
A sad cut, he might come back some day.
-1 Loreseeker's Stone
Has been bad too often. Has overstayed it's time in the main deck for far too long.
-1 Crucible of Worlds
A very sad cut. An engine piece for infinite Mindslavers, Strip mine locks, etc,.. GREAT card. But, slow. Decks are getting faster and better and we need to keep up. This is an endgame card that does it job well, but we have different options for the endgame that help us along the road more. Could possibly see a comeback.
-1 Storm Cauldron
Great cards against some decks. However green has become more resilient with cards like Splendid Reclamation etc. An influx in elfball/mana dork Gaea's Cradle is shaping green a bit and is slowly but surely diminishing this card's overall power level. Unfortunate.
Additions:
+1 Haunted Cloak: Haunted Cloak is one of the newer additions of the deck. After the cut of Akroma's Memorial I felt a lack of haste enablers, while Akroma's still proved too high in mana cost I tested other options and Haunted Cloak was great in what it does! This came along with the addition of Palladium Myr and it's main goal is to have more early haste enablers for him, Metalworker and ofcourse Kozilek when he hits the field. Cheap equipments are great for cards like Clock of Omens and Tangle Wire as well. Trample and Vigilance should not be underestimated either.
+1 Palladium Myr
With the addition of Haunted Cloak it's proven itself a solid and reliable mana rock. Nothing too fancy, great that it taps for two!
Testing:
+1 Magnifying Glass:
A mana rock with potentional draw ability. The few games I had it on the field I didn't utilize the draw ability too much, could be cut for Mind Stone but it's too soon to tell. Might just give me the game with Clock of Omens someday. (or hey, with Paradox Engine now?)
Lands Cuts
-1 Dust Bowl:
Great land. Saw most of it's play in endgame though. Has currently been removed from the main list together with Crucible of Worlds to test different, new options.
-1 Winding Canyons:
Great with Unwinding Clock, but often not much of use. Newer options provided either tutoring, mana or card draw and as such this card had to go.
-1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale:
This card has been cut because I feel it's monetary value has a problematic nature for a primer. The card is good, great, but not for it's price. I personally want people to be able to play the primer without serious investments. The deck is already worth a lot, adding a 1.000$ card could just prevent people from playing it as they might feel that it's needed for this deck to reach 100% potentional. Which is not the case.
As such, it has been removed from the list. People who have the card can obviously still slot this in, but the main decklist here will not play it nor will it base any synergies on it.
-1 Rishadan Port
Great card, a bit lacking in multiplayer. Unfortunare cut, might come back.
Lands Additions
+1 Homeward Path:
It returns! Had multiple occassions where I wanted to tutor this with Expedition Map, when I couldn't. Clearly shows that it earns it's spot.
+1 Blinkmoth Nexus:
Back as well! Needed more cheap hard to remove sudden chump blockers for clutch cases.
+1 Inventor's Fair:
Won the game multiple times with this card by tutoring the last engine/combo piece. Amazing card.
Just a quick question regarding to Sygg, River Cutthroat in 2-headed giant.
The only post I could find was from back in 2009 and the rules got updated a couple times, hence
Question (with example) :
Does Sygg, River Cutthroat trigger when the two opposing players both lost ~2 life in a turn? (which means their team lost 4)
Effectively having "their" life totals drop more than 3.
One quarter of the deck is non-rock artifacts.
Even if you're playing a vastly different list than mine, you'll have a lot of non-rock artifacts. (which doesn't even mean non-mana producing. Example: Krark-Clan Ironworks, Helm of Awakening, Ashnod's Altar)
And I didn't even count fringe-applications like an untapped LED or Myr Battlesphere tokens.
I'm unsure in which situations you find it bad, but at it's worst it's a rock that only taps 1 for Kozilek, not even including that the next Tormod's Crypt you play is a Mox. The only situations I can think of where it's truly horrible, are ones where most cards are. E.g Topdeck mode
Oh right, EDIT:
I'm playtesting Static Orb right now, and it's proven better than expected. With all the new toys we have it's really proving worthy.
I loved it every time.
It's a great enabler for Kozilek, and actually a high priority target for my opponents so far.
The core of the deck, recasting Kozilek over and over, really appreciates Inspiring Statuary.
Sah-weet!
What's the reason for 40 life total anymore nowadays? Other than cushion control and combo? I'm sure bringing it to 30 would enhance casual play as well as competitive.
As for splitting banlists, no thanks and good luck with that.
Saying stuff like this proves you don't understand competitive play and destroys your whole argument. If you have an urge to be arrogant, think twice.
Static Orb could perfectly act as a second Winter Orb, whereas if casted post-kozilek can seal the game. (with or without 3-mana tap artifacts).
Also might re-enter Skullclamp into testing as I haven't played it since the tuck rule change and it weirdly works with our commander now. (Albeit you do have to shuffle your grave but that's ok)
But I have a feeling it might still be too weak.
Does your deck want Asmire in the graveyard? Because Pattern won't trigger on going to Command zone.
Ba-dum-tss
For cards that are obviously in your own favor, I find it easy to asses the value.
I actually have a little pet peeve that when people purposely don't play great cards in their deck because "they might help opponents more than me 1 chance in a 1000". But yeah, yolo right?
Lovely insight on Warping Wail!
Definitely feel I've overlooked the card too much.
And you should test! It's really the only way to accurately measure card's power.
I haven't tested Ward of Bones in ages, tell me how that went!
And Warping Wail, as I keep getting closer and closer to including it. I'm always overlooking making an eldrazi token EOT to have that extra mana for a Kozi cast.
Personally I have sub-par experiences with Silent Arbiter, Crawlspace, Cloudpost Combo (mainly due to the tapped clause) and Karn, Silver Golem (usually useless)
Alright, you convinced me to test Emrakul for sure.
As for Magnifying Glass, yeah it definitely has it's moments, but on average I feel like it's a 3-mana tap for 1, which isn't anything near good. I will keep testing it though, as it does surprise often.
As for the cuts, which ones do you disagree with the most and why? They can come back, some often do. I'm curious to your opinion on the matter.
I haven't drawn Scrap Trawler too many times yet so I'm still a bit uncertain, but analyzing different board states I had while testing I couldn't imagine getting enough out of it without Krark-Clan, so you might be right. I will continue testing it though.
Playtesting proved that Paradox Engine is insane (big surprise)
Had a Sol Ring turn one, Hedron Archive turn two, Paradox Engine turn three followed up by a Mox Opal and I had Spine of Ish-Sah and Krark-Clan Ironworks in my hand, ready to win the game. Someone cast Beast Within on it in response to Mox Opal though so big bummer. What I love about it is that with a great-but-not-magical christmas land hand like that it can easily flat out win the game and that's amazing.
Inspiring Statuary carried more than it's weight, great mana enabler.
I had two games where I drew Staff of Domination and in both it was sub-par and I always had better options available. I still don't get the hype. And at this point some amazing synergies need to start happenning with it (that don't include Metalworker) for me to keep it in. But hey, in it's defence, I only drew it in two games so I definitely need to playtest it way more.
Sure thing, I'll post my list I'm going to test next week.
10 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
The Mana Rocks:
0 Everflowing Chalice
0 Lion's Eye Diamond
0 Mana Crypt
0 Mox Opal
1 Mana Vault
1 Sol Ring
2 Doubling Cube
2 Grim Monolith
2 Helm of Awakening
3 Ashnod's Altar
3 Basalt Monolith
3 Burnished Hart
3 Chromatic Lantern
3 Coalition Relic
3 Kyren Toy
3 Metalworker
3 Semblance Anvil
3 Worn Powerstone
3 Palladium Myr (new)
3 Magnifying Glass (testing)
3 Inspiring Statuary (testing)
4 Hedron Archive
4 Krark-Clan Ironworks
4 Sisay's Ring
4 Solemn Simulacrum
4 Thran Dynamo
4 Ur-Golem's Eye
5 Gilded Lotus
6 Dreamstone Hedron
6 Oblivion Sower
The Untappers:
1 Voltaic Key
4 Clock of Omens
4 Unwinding Clock
5 Paradox Engine (testing)
2 Lightning Greaves
2 Swiftfoot Boots
3 Haunted Cloak (new)
The Beatdown:
10 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
12 Blightsteel Colossus
Extra Draw, Filters and Tutoring:
1 Expedition Map
1 Sensei's Divining Top
5 Kuldotha Forgemaster
5 Mind's Eye
6 Staff of Nin
6 Conduit of Ruin
10 Kozilek, the Great Distortion
Grave-Hate:
0 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
The Utility, The Machine:
2 Strionic Resonator
2 Torpor Orb
2 Winter Orb
3 Rings of Brighthearth
3 Sculpting Steel
3 Tangle Wire
3 Scrap Trawler (testing)
3 Staff of Domination (testing)
6 Duplicant
6 Mindslaver
7 All is Dust
7 Karn Liberated
7 Myr Battlesphere
7 Spine of Ish Sah
8 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
Mana-Lands:
0 Ancient Tomb
0 Crystal Vein
0 Eldrazi Temple
0 Mage-Ring Network
0 Shrine of the Forsaken Gods
0 Temple of the False God
0 Eye of Ugin
0 Sanctum of Ugin
Strip-Lands:
0 Strip Mine
0 Tectonic Edge
0 Wasteland
Sac-lands:
0 High Market
0 Miren, the Moaning Well
Mazes:
0 Maze of Ith
Copy Lands:
0 Thespian's Stage
0 Vesuva
Man-Lands / Token Lands:
0 Inkmoth Nexus
0 Blinkmoth Nexus (back)
Extra good for Kozilek-Lands:
0 Cavern of Souls
0 Rogue's Passage
Utility Lands:
0 Buried Ruin
0 Blasted Landscape
0 Darksteel Citadel
0 Mikokoro, Center of the Sea
0 Sea Gate Wreckage
0 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
0 Homeward Path (back)
0 Inventor's Fair (new)
0 Geier Reach Sanitarium (new)
0 Command Beacon (new)
0 Drownyard Temple (new)
Basics:
0 Wastes
0 Wastes
0 Wastes
0 Wastes
0 Wastes
Changes
Cuts
-1 Wayfarer's Bauble:
Simply not good enough, too much investment for too little/slow ramp.
-1 Blinkmoth Urn:
Acting a bit slow lately, have found it to be an easy target for opponents as well. Sits dead in hand on occassion when other artifact decks are around. Currently replaced by Paradox Engine (which will undoubtably do better)
-1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre:
He's been great for a long while, but this deck was in high need of cutting more big fat mana. His newer self is better at removal, where Ulamog was used most for. (besides his pressuring presence, ofcourse)
A sad cut, he might come back some day.
-1 Loreseeker's Stone
Has been bad too often. Has overstayed it's time in the main deck for far too long.
-1 Crucible of Worlds
A very sad cut. An engine piece for infinite Mindslavers, Strip mine locks, etc,.. GREAT card. But, slow. Decks are getting faster and better and we need to keep up. This is an endgame card that does it job well, but we have different options for the endgame that help us along the road more. Could possibly see a comeback.
-1 Trading Post
Good overall card, too slow. Testing Scrap Trawler in it's place now.
-1 Storm Cauldron
Great cards against some decks. However green has become more resilient with cards like Splendid Reclamation etc. An influx in elfball/mana dork Gaea's Cradle is shaping green a bit and is slowly but surely diminishing this card's overall power level. Unfortunate.
Additions:
+1 Haunted Cloak:
Haunted Cloak is one of the newer additions of the deck. After the cut of Akroma's Memorial I felt a lack of haste enablers, while Akroma's still proved too high in mana cost I tested other options and Haunted Cloak was great in what it does! This came along with the addition of Palladium Myr and it's main goal is to have more early haste enablers for him, Metalworker and ofcourse Kozilek when he hits the field. Cheap equipments are great for cards like Clock of Omens and Tangle Wire as well. Trample and Vigilance should not be underestimated either.
+1 Palladium Myr
With the addition of Haunted Cloak it's proven itself a solid and reliable mana rock. Nothing too fancy, great that it taps for two!
Testing:
+1 Magnifying Glass:
A mana rock with potentional draw ability. The few games I had it on the field I didn't utilize the draw ability too much, could be cut for Mind Stone but it's too soon to tell. Might just give me the game with Clock of Omens someday. (or hey, with Paradox Engine now?)
+1 Paradox Engine:
+1 Inspiring Statuary:
Potentionally amazing in casting and recasting Kozilek. Testing will show it's worth but I strongly believe in it's power.
+1 Scrap Trawler
Could be amazing with Krark-Clan Ironworks, Ashnod's Altar, etc. Possible sac, recur lower artifact, play, sac, recur lower artifact, etc chains. I see great synergy with cards like Mana Vault, Grim Monolith, etc. Testing will prove it's worth.
+1 Staff of Domination
As per request. I'm sure we all know the card.
Lands
Lands Cuts
-1 Dust Bowl:
Great land. Saw most of it's play in endgame though. Has currently been removed from the main list together with Crucible of Worlds to test different, new options.
-1 Tower of the Magistrate:
Fun, but sees less and less use. Easy cut.
-1 Winding Canyons:
Great with Unwinding Clock, but often not much of use. Newer options provided either tutoring, mana or card draw and as such this card had to go.
-1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale:
This card has been cut because I feel it's monetary value has a problematic nature for a primer. The card is good, great, but not for it's price. I personally want people to be able to play the primer without serious investments. The deck is already worth a lot, adding a 1.000$ card could just prevent people from playing it as they might feel that it's needed for this deck to reach 100% potentional. Which is not the case.
As such, it has been removed from the list. People who have the card can obviously still slot this in, but the main decklist here will not play it nor will it base any synergies on it.
-1 Rishadan Port
Great card, a bit lacking in multiplayer. Unfortunare cut, might come back.
-1 Wastes
5 is enough, more utility is better.
Lands Additions
+1 Homeward Path:
It returns! Had multiple occassions where I wanted to tutor this with Expedition Map, when I couldn't. Clearly shows that it earns it's spot.
+1 Blinkmoth Nexus:
Back as well! Needed more cheap hard to remove sudden chump blockers for clutch cases.
+1 Inventor's Fair:
Won the game multiple times with this card by tutoring the last engine/combo piece. Amazing card.
+1 Geier Reach Sanitarium:
Great filter for when you have too many lands in hand. If you play Ghirapur Orrery it's even better.
+1 Command Beacon:
Say no to high commander tax!
+1 Drownyard Temple:
Effectively ramp due to high amounts of Wheel of Fortune, Windfall, Memory Jar, etc being played. Also "okay" with open mana after an Armageddon. (if it's not game over)
And that's it!
Wait not really, Possibly testing Emrakul, the Promised End instead of Blightsteel Colossus. Does anyone have experience playing the Emrakul?