I have a feeling that that Flash+Hulk combo is just trying to be forced to make it work. I mean, if it does work, it's all well and good, but it needs a lot of effort and mana to get it to go. I think it might be worth just going for the Ezuri+Sage combo because it's consistent and reliable to get off of the Flash+Hulk.
Hey there! Just wanted to post in this thread about how much I love Vannifar and that I'm working on a decklist myself for her. But I've also found a silly combo that kills opponents through direct damage and is loopable.
It requires Vannifar and either an equipped Thornbite Staff or Intruder Alarm to keep untapping her.
The Tracer and Shaman are good for putting combo pieces in graveyard back into your deck should they somehow end up there. Since 5 CMC is open, you can get any utility creature desired at the time. Hulk is an auto include in the deck obviously. The Doom Engine is just your source of damage while the Strider gets around no damage clauses like Glacial Chasm.
What do you think? Just thought I'd put this out there for anyone else who wants to try it out instead of another combo.
Her +2 is obviously built for Madness and is a very red mechanic. Her -2 is your standard white "remove tapped thing" or enchantment removal. Her -8 is Sneak Attack with the Unsummon clause because they don't want Sneak Attack in standard. Being able to fetch and dump a creature into your yard is a stupid high power level. Keeping it on the battlefield is even more so. So they went with the last option, which was to bounce it, despite that not being super red. I agree with Wizards on that cause tossing an Eldrazi into your yard only to reanimate it next turn is bad for everyone.
Modern probably won't play her as she doesn't do all that much relevant to the format. Then again, it's broken at the moment.
Legacy is Legacy.
EDH will play her cause you can whip Blightsteels and such at your opponents, and having a repeatable draw engine that isn't the "special kid" Daretti, is always good since her other abilities are more relevant to a generic deck.
And please stop comparing her to Jace in any way. He is a blue card. She is not. I could say more, but that's really all that needs to be said.
Hey all! Quick little update. Of the many games I played this weekend, I had one in particular of interest for here. I've been still using new Kozi as my general and had cast him twice already in the game, both getting >4 cards. The third time I cast him, I got 4 cards exactly. But this point is where his card draw ability failed compared to old Kozi's. I had enough mana in my pool using Doubling Cube shenanigans, along with Krark-Clan Ironworks and Mycosynth Lattice, to sac and recast him over and over. I got stuck with 6 cards in my hand for a while and was only drawing 1 card a cast. This is obviously a problem. I won the game since I was able to eventually draw into Staff of Domination to draw out my deck, but the lack of cards after I was able to loop-cast him made things a bit scary.
This though is one instance of many games I've used New Kozi and had his draw effect be less effective than old Kozi. It's something to be concerned about but not enough to get all up in arms and dump New Kozi to the side.
Great report,
Did you add a % of more rocks to the deck to compensate? It seems that new-kozilek would thrive more with a small addition of extra rocks to truly capitalize on it's ability to draw 7.
What personally holds me back is that we would not be able to draw cards when we're already at a full hand. How has the experience been in that case?
I'm (probably) only going to test New-Kozi post-release so whoever does test him, be sure to provide more playtesting experiences
Not really. I only added Thought Vessel and still run the normal compliment of usual mana rocks, minus Mana Crypt. I've just been finding that I empty my hand fairly often right before I cast him, giving me more cards than old Kozi. And having a full hand isn't a bad thing. If new-Kozi gets removed, you're still loaded with a mitt full of cards to do something with next turn. The other big bonus is if there's a board wipe and your hand isn't loaded with bad cards (which is a rarity in most cases), you can come right back by dumping your new hand then casting Kozi the following turn. In the games in which I've casted him multiple times, the lowest I've drawn was 4. The one case of drawing 3 was when I was stuck with a hand full of land from bad draws prior to casting him. I do see a potential issue of people over-extending to empty their hand to draw more cards, but I find that for the first cast of either Kozi, your hand is gonna be near empty, giving the edge to new-K.
I'll keep this thread apprised of any new developments and will have to work on a detailed workup for an overhaul when OGW comes out. Thanks Juwdah.
So I built Mizzix in similar fashion to most. But like a bad Magic player, I added every Time Walk effect I could. She is evil when casting Time Warp for Time Walk mana. Also running the standard blue Palinchron combo stuff for added ickyness. Also, I've found the best way to protect her is not counterspells but giving her flash. EOT casting makes it harder for others to respond before she goes off.
So I've done a decent amount of testing with new Kozilek as the general and old Kozi in the 99. The counterspell ability is usually enough to protect him from one spell, sometimes two. It's effective in stopping others from going off too. Menace has done a lot more work than I thought it would. I've won games with general damage because they can't block him. The biggest boon has been the fill to 7 cards. I've drawn ~6 cards with him on an average cast. I've had numerous times of 7 and 5, with one case so far of 3. The sheer card advantage has been ridiculous and can't be easily dealt with.
I've also done a little testing with Null Brooch and it's been effective as a counter to control decks, though I haven't done too many games with it. It did empty my hand for a 7 card draw from new Kozi.
I'll be adding some more new stuff this week and will playtest more, but I'm loving new Kozi and my playgroup both loves and hates him. Love because he's so good, and hate for the very same reason. Keep testing everyone! And here's hoping for more insane support for our colorless brethren!
I could see Grave Pact in there too. And I saw you wanted to avoid win combos, but Spike Breeder with Ashnod's Altar and the general make an infinite sac loop, something like Ghave. It might be useful to have just to end a game, or could help with keeping the board clear with Grave Pact/Dictate.
Haven't posted here in forever. Been modding Kozy as cards come out and BFZ added some okay stuff. But as a comment on Scorched Ruins, the card is phenomenal. Yes, you risk getting Strip Mine'd, but the amount of mana it gives consistently is better than any mana rock. It also really hurts opponents when you have a Winter Orb and 4-mana land untapping while they get 1 mana. On Void Winnower, I've only had him down once and got killed that turn. He seems mostly irrelevant after looking at how he impacts the board versus Kozy. I would rather have another mana rock, but I'll give him a few more test runs before I made a definitive cut or not.
Still glad to see this deck and thread getting lots of love and attention cause Kozy loves to be warm and cozy.
If I lose my early mana rocks, I have some trouble getting the engine restarted, but otherwise, I just roll. Today I was able to infinite with Myr Turbine and yet still had to rely on being able to deck my opponent cause he got a nutty combo of cards (Avacyn, Asceticism, Sigarda, and Blazing Archon) leaving me unable to touch his board. So eventually I was just content to infinite Mindslaver him while I kept cycling my deck with Ulamog and Helm of Possession. Still loving this deck.
Been playing with this deck for a week now and it's just devastating. Multiple times I've gotten turn 4 Kozy. I've had tons of mana rocks thanks to Mirrorworks. It's just so much fun. Any changes you think might be beneficial would be appreciated, with the exception of super expensive cards like Mana Crypt and/or Mishra's Factory.
So I got the cards for my Kozy deck on Saturday and I quick threw it together to give it a test run. OMG! I LOVE THIS DECK!! It reinvigorated my love for EDH. The first game I played without going infinte, I was able to get a porn horn up to 11 counters and do obscene things. I played another game and crushed the two people I was playing with. Then yesterday (Sunday) I played another game and went infinite and was giggling like a schoolgirl after the win. It was just amazing.
Juwdah, thank you for the primer and the nudging towards Kozy. I appreciate it and I am a fan. I hope we can spread the glory of Kozilek, Butcher with Juice to the world.
It requires Vannifar and either an equipped Thornbite Staff or Intruder Alarm to keep untapping her.
Say we start at 4 CMC, but the loop can be begun at any from 2CMC-Protean Hulk.
1)Sac 4 CMC, fetch any 5 CMC.
2)Sac 5 CMC, fetch Scuttling Doom Engine.
3)Sac Scuttling Doom Engine (dealing 6 to an opponent), fetch Protean Hulk.
4)Sac Protean Hulk, fetch any 8 drop (if wanted). Use Protean Hulk's ability to fetch Nantuko Tracer only. Put one card on bottom of library.
5)Sac Nantuko Tracer, fetch Loaming Shaman. Put at least Scuttling Doom Engine, Protean Hulk, and Nantuko Tracer back into the deck.
6)Sac Loaming Shaman, fetch Pierce Strider (having an opponent losing 3 life).
7)Sac Pierce Strider, fetch any 5 CMC.
8)Sac 5 CMC, fetch Scuttling Doom Engine.
9)Sac Scuttling Doom Engine, fetch Protean Hulk.
10)Sac Protean Hulk, fetch nothing. Use Hulk's ability to fetch Nantuko Tracer only. Put Loaming Shaman on the bottom of your library.
11)Sac Nantuko Tracer to fetch Loaming Shaman. Put in everything fetched 2,4-7 CMC back into the deck.
12)Repeat to kill opponents.
The Tracer and Shaman are good for putting combo pieces in graveyard back into your deck should they somehow end up there. Since 5 CMC is open, you can get any utility creature desired at the time. Hulk is an auto include in the deck obviously. The Doom Engine is just your source of damage while the Strider gets around no damage clauses like Glacial Chasm.
What do you think? Just thought I'd put this out there for anyone else who wants to try it out instead of another combo.
Modern probably won't play her as she doesn't do all that much relevant to the format. Then again, it's broken at the moment.
Legacy is Legacy.
EDH will play her cause you can whip Blightsteels and such at your opponents, and having a repeatable draw engine that isn't the "special kid" Daretti, is always good since her other abilities are more relevant to a generic deck.
And please stop comparing her to Jace in any way. He is a blue card. She is not. I could say more, but that's really all that needs to be said.
This though is one instance of many games I've used New Kozi and had his draw effect be less effective than old Kozi. It's something to be concerned about but not enough to get all up in arms and dump New Kozi to the side.
Not really. I only added Thought Vessel and still run the normal compliment of usual mana rocks, minus Mana Crypt. I've just been finding that I empty my hand fairly often right before I cast him, giving me more cards than old Kozi. And having a full hand isn't a bad thing. If new-Kozi gets removed, you're still loaded with a mitt full of cards to do something with next turn. The other big bonus is if there's a board wipe and your hand isn't loaded with bad cards (which is a rarity in most cases), you can come right back by dumping your new hand then casting Kozi the following turn. In the games in which I've casted him multiple times, the lowest I've drawn was 4. The one case of drawing 3 was when I was stuck with a hand full of land from bad draws prior to casting him. I do see a potential issue of people over-extending to empty their hand to draw more cards, but I find that for the first cast of either Kozi, your hand is gonna be near empty, giving the edge to new-K.
I'll keep this thread apprised of any new developments and will have to work on a detailed workup for an overhaul when OGW comes out. Thanks Juwdah.
I've also done a little testing with Null Brooch and it's been effective as a counter to control decks, though I haven't done too many games with it. It did empty my hand for a 7 card draw from new Kozi.
I'll be adding some more new stuff this week and will playtest more, but I'm loving new Kozi and my playgroup both loves and hates him. Love because he's so good, and hate for the very same reason. Keep testing everyone! And here's hoping for more insane support for our colorless brethren!
Still glad to see this deck and thread getting lots of love and attention cause Kozy loves to be warm and cozy.
This is the decklist I made with it.
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
Creatures:8
1 Kuldotha Forgemaster
1 Duplicant
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Thopter Assembly
1 Myr Battlesphere
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 It That Betrays
Spells:56
1 Astral Cornucopia
1 Everflowing Chalice
1 Mox Opal
1 Expedition Map
1 Mana Vault
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sol Ring
1 Voltaic Key
1 Doubling Cube
1 Grim Monolith
1 Helm of Awakening
1 Lightning Greaves
1 Scroll Rack
1 Strionic Resonator
1 Swiftfoot Boots
1 Torpor Orb
1 Winter Orb
1 Basalt Monolith
1 Chromatic Lantern
1 Cloud Key
1 Coalition Relic
1 Crawlspace
1 Mimic Vat
1 Rings of Brighthearth
1 Sculpting Steel
1 Semblance Anvil
1 Staff of Domination
1 Worn Powerstone
1 Clock of Omens
1 Helm of Possession
1 Krark-Clan Ironworks
1 Nevinyrral's Disk
1 Sisay's Ring
1 Thran Dynamo
1 Tower of Fortunes
1 Trading Post
1 Unwinding Clock
1 Ur-Golem's Eye
1 Vedalken Orrery
1 Blinkmoth Urn
1 Gilded Lotus
1 Memory Jar
1 Mind's Eye
1 Mirrorworks
1 Myr Matrix
1 Myr Turbine
1 Predator, Flagship
1 Dreamstone Hedron
1 Mindslaver
1 Soul Conduit
1 Staff of Nin
1 Akroma's Memorial
1 All Is Dust
1 Karn Liberated
1 Spine of Ish Sah
1 Darksteel Forge
1 Ancient Tomb
1 Blasted Landscape
1 Blinkmoth Nexus
1 Buried Ruin
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Crystal Vein
1 Darksteel Citadel
1 Deserted Temple
1 Eldrazi Temple
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Gemstone Caverns
1 Ghost Quarter
1 High Market
1 Homeward Path
1 Inkmoth Nexus
1 Maze of Ith
1 Mikokoro, Center of the Sea
1 Miren, the Moaning Well
1 Mutavault
1 Mystifying Maze
1 Petrified Field
1 Phyrexia's Core
1 Reliquary Tower
1 Rogue's Passage
1 Scorched Ruins
1 Springjack Pasture
1 Strip Mine
1 Tectonic Edge
1 Temple of the False God
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Tower of the Magistrate
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Vesuva
1 Winding Canyons
1 Zoetic Cavern
Juwdah, thank you for the primer and the nudging towards Kozy. I appreciate it and I am a fan. I hope we can spread the glory of Kozilek, Butcher with Juice to the world.