Nice to see you're still with us on this Carlos, your opinions are always welcome!
Quote from cag08055 »
It's been awhile since I've gotten to play with the deck, but I do have some quick thoughts.
Everyone's running Altar's Reap since it's obviously insane, but no one else seems to be running Skulltap or Primal Growth, the sorcery-speed equivalents. The fact that they can't counter your "removal spell" for Child is a pretty high upside, and getting the extra cards/lands is just pure value. They're cheap enough that you can easily leave up countermagic and have utility outside of killing Child.
Bold underline is my emphasis and the major stumbling block. With this issue we're talking about the difference between a sledgehammer and a scalpel. You're getting a strong, nigh-unstoppable, sweeper effect in exchange for political leverage. I get really cautious about these because I can longer play politician during other peoples turns with instant speed sweeping. That being said, these might honestly have a place in cutthroat meta-games where no one is paying attention to table politics, but my meta-game isn't that and I suspect the majority are the same.
Quote from cag08055 »
For people looking for life gain, I've been playing with Kabira Crossroads for awhile, and Capsizing that has won me a ton of games without taking up a spell slot. I really wanted Wandering Stream to be good, but I just haven't liked it. Maybe Gnaw to the Bone is a reasonable thing to try? Seems like on average it'd gain as much or more life as Wandering Stream, with flashback and at instant speed.
I've really been wrestling with the slot I use to gain life. I know Overrule is too costly to fill it. The main reason I went away from Kabira Crossroads is because of the card heavy nature of Trinket Mage and artifact lands. Gnaw to the Bone is a great idea that will probably be going in, thanks!
@TheOrangePet
Quote from cag08055 »
Have you considered Deprive or Syncopate instead of Cancel or Stoic Rebuttal? I haven't seen too many people playing with either of those two counters, but they've both been very good for me, especially Deprive. Because of the spell-lands like Halimar Depths and Bojuka Bog, Deprive often feels like a 2-for-1, and seems much better than Cancel, at the least.
Syncopate has the same issues as Overrule and Condescend, this deck is clearly mana hungry and leaving up half-a-dozen mana for a counter really kills your lines of play until you've already got the game in the bag. Deprive has been in the deck from time to time. Its not in now because, just like above, my ETB land count is low because of the resiliency of artifact lands and Panoramas.
Quote from cag08055 »
I also want to know how the Blue Blasts have been. I really like having as many one-mana ways to kill Child as possible, and the REBs are sweet because they hate on the best color, but the blue blasts just seem excessive. How good are they if people are only playing red as a secondary or tertiary color? That just seems a little too narrow to me.
They seem narrow, but really help add consistency to an inconsistent constructed deck type. If we assume our opponent is playing red as tertiary, the worst thing they'll ever do is counter a commander, which is actually the most threatening thing many decks can muster after a few Child of Alara triggers. In a different deck these are certainly too narrow to be played given the power level and frequency of good targets, but Child of Alara always provides a perfect target. Having so many instant speed 1cc ways to suicide the angry baby lets you play table politics like no ones business.
Quote from cag08055 »
I like the idea of Scrivener and Vedalken AEthermage. The biggest problem I see is that you're making room for that by cutting all of the utility spells like Qasali Pridemage and Rend Flesh. Can you deal with problematic permanents without Child of Alara or Capsize? What do you do if you have to Wrath early and then someone casts another threat that must be dealt with? The card selection and additional recursion is nice, but doesn't seem like it does much if all you can find is more card selection.
I feel like the best counter opinion to your very relevant points is that Child of Alara should be popped again. Even in the mid-game, with so much draw filtering, tutoring, and recursion finding another way to cast and again stomp out the baby is almost trivial.
It seems like theres a perception among us that frequently triggering Child of Alara is socially taboo, almost like Armageddon effects. Don't get me wrong here, I enjoy socially acceptable lines of play, but if your opponents allow you to ramp out of control through land-based and graveyard-based resources it simply invokes them to increase the resiliency of their decks to remain competitive. I really felt that every time I casted those pinpoint utility spells I was giving up card economy and tempo compared to simply wiping the slate clean again.
Sasaya is fantastic, but easily polarizes a meta. Save the cheap shenanigans for side events if you want to be successful with it. Spend a little more money if you want to have more fun while you do it.
Removal spells like Unmake, Terminate, Rend Flesh, and Wrecking Ball usually create branching lines of play. That is, destroying something other than Child of Alara. Streamlining is good! Replacing them with 1cc removal in the form of blasts and Skred has to be optimal.
Drawing cards is nowhere near as important as increasing card quality when playing "pillow fort" like this. Rush of Knowledge is included as a returnable refill button, but everything else is instant speed draw filtering. We don't need tons of extra cards...we need the correct ones.
Every playable tutor is included (some marginal). Dizzy Spell is actually pretty clutch with an assortment of blasts and Reclaim available.
Condescend and Overrule are way too restrictive on the cost and are much better as Cancel and Stoic Rebuttal. Wandering Stream is a shotgun blast of life that fills that hole, costs very little, and is easily returnable. Its also easier to play with than Sylvok Lifestaff while wiping the board.
Cycling lands are quaint, but always lackluster. The combination of Trinket Mage for lands plus Panoramas makes landing Child of Alara early and through LD much easier.
This is going very well indeed. Thoughts welcome of course.
I'm somewhat artifact averse as they can't get copied by Riku.
Gotcha, makes good sense. Have you made any changes in the last few weeks? Perhaps something else from Innistrad has wow'd you? In your experience how many times do you need to recast Riku to get the game state to the point where you start X'ing people out of the game? Also, have you played against other pauper or non-pauper commander decks and how did it compare against whichever?
I prefer a rarity restriction, to remove any weirdness surrounding choosing a price source. Click my signature picture for a great pauper deck discussion.
Bold underline is my emphasis and the major stumbling block. With this issue we're talking about the difference between a sledgehammer and a scalpel. You're getting a strong, nigh-unstoppable, sweeper effect in exchange for political leverage. I get really cautious about these because I can longer play politician during other peoples turns with instant speed sweeping. That being said, these might honestly have a place in cutthroat meta-games where no one is paying attention to table politics, but my meta-game isn't that and I suspect the majority are the same.
I've really been wrestling with the slot I use to gain life. I know Overrule is too costly to fill it. The main reason I went away from Kabira Crossroads is because of the card heavy nature of Trinket Mage and artifact lands. Gnaw to the Bone is a great idea that will probably be going in, thanks!
@TheOrangePet
Syncopate has the same issues as Overrule and Condescend, this deck is clearly mana hungry and leaving up half-a-dozen mana for a counter really kills your lines of play until you've already got the game in the bag. Deprive has been in the deck from time to time. Its not in now because, just like above, my ETB land count is low because of the resiliency of artifact lands and Panoramas.
They seem narrow, but really help add consistency to an inconsistent constructed deck type. If we assume our opponent is playing red as tertiary, the worst thing they'll ever do is counter a commander, which is actually the most threatening thing many decks can muster after a few Child of Alara triggers. In a different deck these are certainly too narrow to be played given the power level and frequency of good targets, but Child of Alara always provides a perfect target. Having so many instant speed 1cc ways to suicide the angry baby lets you play table politics like no ones business.
I feel like the best counter opinion to your very relevant points is that Child of Alara should be popped again. Even in the mid-game, with so much draw filtering, tutoring, and recursion finding another way to cast and again stomp out the baby is almost trivial.
It seems like theres a perception among us that frequently triggering Child of Alara is socially taboo, almost like Armageddon effects. Don't get me wrong here, I enjoy socially acceptable lines of play, but if your opponents allow you to ramp out of control through land-based and graveyard-based resources it simply invokes them to increase the resiliency of their decks to remain competitive. I really felt that every time I casted those pinpoint utility spells I was giving up card economy and tempo compared to simply wiping the slate clean again.
Thanks for provoking thought!
Seconded for red.
Blue= Thada Adel, Acquisitor
Black= Shirei, Shizo's Caretaker
Green= Sasaya, Orochi Ascendant
White= Hokori, Dust Drinker (Because of the look on their faces!)
Overall= (Obviously)Child of Alara
Seconded + Mouth of Ronom for random gotchas!
Tucks? Hinder and Spell Crumple for the scoop?
+1 for Darksteel Plate
Sasaya is fantastic, but easily polarizes a meta. Save the cheap shenanigans for side events if you want to be successful with it. Spend a little more money if you want to have more fun while you do it.
Looking forward to the end of the holiday hiatus at CommanderCast!
1 Child of Alara
Creature (19)
1 Anarchist
1 Scrivener
1 Leonin Squire
1 Mulldrifter
1 Mnemonic Wall
1 Trinket Mage
1 Sea Gate Oracle
1 Drift of Phantasms
1 Gravedigger
1 Cadaver Imp
1 Dimir House Guard
1 Krosan Tusker
1 Yavimaya Elder
1 Tilling Treefolk
1 Farhaven Elf
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Izzet Chronarch
1 Dimir Infiltrator
1 Vedalken AEthermage
Instant (25)
1 Momentary Blink
1 Mystical Teachings
1 Faerie Trickery
1 Capsize
1 Muddle the Mixture
1 Counterspell
1 Arcane Denial
1 Death Denied
1 Shred Memory
1 Skred
1 Pyroblast
1 Soul Manipulation
1 Perplex
1 Altar's Reap
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Cancel
1 Dizzy Spell
1 Forbidden Alchemy
1 Hydroblast
1 Impulse
1 Reclaim
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Stoic Rebuttal
1 Worldly Counsel
1 Brainstorm
1 Brainspoil
1 Mind Extraction
1 Disturbed Burial
1 Kodama's Reach
1 Far Wanderings
1 Cultivate
1 Fireball
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Rush of Knowledge
1 Wandering Stream
Artifact (5)
1 Wayfarer's Bauble
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Horizon Spellbomb
1 Darksteel Ingot
1 Expedition Map
Land (40)
1 Command Tower
1 Rupture Spire
1 Shimmering Grotto
1 Evolving Wilds
1 Terramorphic Expanse
1 Ancient Den
1 Seat of the Synod
1 Great Furnace
1 Vault of Whispers
1 Tree of Tales
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Strip Mine
1 Bant Panorama
1 Grixis Panorama
1 Naya Panorama
1 Jund Panorama
1 Esper Panorama
2 Snow-Covered Plains
2 Snow-Covered Mountain
7 Snow-Covered Island
7 Snow-Covered Forest
5 Snow-Covered Swamp
This is my current iteration. Its a mixture of ideas presented here and elsewhere. Its very streamlined for its purpose and feels really tight.
This is going very well indeed. Thoughts welcome of course.
Prahv, Spires of Order doesn't match your color identity. Also, consider adding Treetop Bracers and/or Spirit Mantle for evasion.
Has your testing or the release of Innistrad prompted any changes to the list?
Gotcha, makes good sense. Have you made any changes in the last few weeks? Perhaps something else from Innistrad has wow'd you? In your experience how many times do you need to recast Riku to get the game state to the point where you start X'ing people out of the game? Also, have you played against other pauper or non-pauper commander decks and how did it compare against whichever?
The only thing that jumps out at me omission-wise is Cavern Harpy.