I don't have any hard numbers on this, but I'm targeted more often than a black guy driving a beat-up sedan with a broken tail-light and no license plate, and Cy's well aware of that.
It should be common knowledge. Ask any of the experienced players here, 12 person basic gets 3 scum. I actually caught a lot of suspicion in my last game pretending not to know that. If anyone can tell me of a game that went otherwise, I'd be happy to concede my point, but even then, I imagine such a game would definitely be rare.
Wheat has already pointed out that the question you asked was not a legitimate one. What info did you really hope to gain from it? I'm asking seriously. What did you expect?
You cast suspicion on him without merit. Twisted a post of information to be something it wasn't. I'm calling you out on it. If you think you can call that scummy, I'd like to see the justification.
I have no problem with calling out bad posts; I'm doing it now. I still fail to see how you could have thought that providing information was bad. If you wanted to call out his post, you should have called out the fact that he answered a question that wasn't meant for him. That's the only thing he did that was questionable.
None of the FAQs or info areas had 12-3 as hardset numbers. This is my first full game...if that info is not listed, no, it is not fair to assume people know that. (After this post, I won't use noob card again.) How could you possibly think a new player would know that info?
I did. I studied this game for quite a bit before I ever even considered playing, read through a few games and checked the wiki for pretty much everything that I could think of. Maybe I looked into it too much, but as far as I'm concerned, being new to the game is no excuse for not knowing things you easily could.
"If you wanted to call out his post, you should have called out the fact that he answered a question that wasn't meant for him." So,Covering for a buddy... You're right. No way that could be calling him out for answering someone else's question.
You started there, sure. But that stopped being your point of focus. you got up in arms about his information, which is nonsensical.
It's not. But, this is a basic. I still fail to see how you think all players should have knowledge already that is not listed or given out, but rather derived from playing multiple games on this site. It was a legitimate question. I guess I don't know all the things you assume all the other seasoned veterans in this basic should know. If you can't see how I saw it as a potential scumslip, you are assuming too much about the knowledge pool of this game's players.
Perhaps I do assume too much, and expect too much. I expect people to have done their homework, because I assume that anyone that wanted to win would see the benefit of gathering knowledge. I expect newbs, not noobs.
So if I lower my expectations a bit, yes, I can see how your question might be legitimate. You'd do well to word things differently in the future, because the way you worded it gives the impression of, as wheat put it, blatant mudslinging.
The reason I said it would be rare rather than impossible is because like you, I'm new to the game. I looked quite extensively, but I never found a basic that had more than 3 scum. That said, I'm human, and my knowledge is fallible. It wouldn't surprise me if somewhere out there, a 4-scum basic happened. However, I believe such an occurrence would be so rare as to be negligible when considering the setup for other games.
@ MTG~DDS: I'm having a hard time buying the way you're playing the noob card.
1. There is no hard set rule for Mafia other than you have a team of townies and a team of mafia. That's it. After that there's a plethora of rules that's considered common knowledge, but no requirement they be observed. If you've done any reading about the game (which you have all implied) then I'd like to think you'd have some inclination about that.
Vanilla Mafia = 4.5 (I have tried this several different ways. Valuing a mafia at 5 seems too high, but valuing one at 4 seems slightly low. I therefore, brilliantly, put it right in the middle. How scientific of me)
Where did I get these numbers from? I started by plugging them into some very basic Mafia set-ups (using 25% Mafia as baseline):
12 players: 9 town, 3 mafia
Emphasis, once again, added. So that's strike one against your assertion that said information isn't available. Next, why would you not take it upon yourself in your reading/digging to check out current games to see what they're like? That seems to me as if it would be common sense, and one of the first places I'd go.
That's 13 basic games, this one notwithstanding, on the first page. Two of them we cannot tell the number of mafia count, giving us 11/13 known, or 84.6% of basic games. If you looked at any basics it's extremely likely you'd have stumbled across the 9/3 basic split.
So yeah, I'm not buying your assertion you "didn't know", and I feel as if you're doing a poor job of playing dumb to try and cover the fact you're a Mafioso.
Lucy, you got some 'splainin to do.
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I don't have any hard numbers on this, but I'm targeted more often than a black guy driving a beat-up sedan with a broken tail-light and no license plate, and Cy's well aware of that.
"If you wanted to call out his post, you should have called out the fact that he answered a question that wasn't meant for him." So,Covering for a buddy... You're right. No way that could be calling him out for answering someone else's question.
You started there, sure. But that stopped being your point of focus. you got up in arms about his information, which is nonsensical.
because that was the part called into question...
You are right though. The links you sent does show that can't properly interpret what I read. Reread of the FAQ says "baseline 9-3". I just didn't jump to the assumption that all games were. I concede this point to you. I also like your defense, didn't back off and stuck to your guns. :). I had a weird vibe from Grimnar, I will reset my read and not tunnel on you.
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If the AC repair dude doesn't show up bright and early tomorrow, I'm gonna borrow some of DDS' dental tools to carve out his eye sockets like jack o lanterns.
In his first actual post of the game, he made a very large post detailing exactly why we know something we already know, even though it's pretty much a non-issue.
He then uses it to push suspicion on a player, when by far the most likely explanation is ignorance.
@ MTG~DDS: I'm having a hard time buying the way you're playing the noob card.
1. There is no hard set rule for Mafia other than you have a team of townies and a team of mafia. That's it. After that there's a plethora of rules that's considered common knowledge, but no requirement they be observed. If you've done any reading about the game (which you have all implied) then I'd like to think you'd have some inclination about that.
Vanilla Mafia = 4.5 (I have tried this several different ways. Valuing a mafia at 5 seems too high, but valuing one at 4 seems slightly low. I therefore, brilliantly, put it right in the middle. How scientific of me)
Where did I get these numbers from? I started by plugging them into some very basic Mafia set-ups (using 25% Mafia as baseline):
12 players: 9 town, 3 mafia
Emphasis, once again, added. So that's strike one against your assertion that said information isn't available. Next, why would you not take it upon yourself in your reading/digging to check out current games to see what they're like? That seems to me as if it would be common sense, and one of the first places I'd go.
That's 13 basic games, this one notwithstanding, on the first page. Two of them we cannot tell the number of mafia count, giving us 11/13 known, or 84.6% of basic games. If you looked at any basics it's extremely likely you'd have stumbled across the 9/3 basic split.
So yeah, I'm not buying your assertion you "didn't know", and I feel as if you're doing a poor job of playing dumb to try and cover the fact you're a Mafioso.
Lucy, you got some 'splainin to do.
Welcome to the game, iRebel
QFT. I've never seen a Basic with anything other than a 9/3 split. I doubt anything different would've gotten past review. I do know that gaming the mod like this is very rarely productive, especially in a Basic.
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In his first actual post of the game, he made a very large post detailing exactly why we know something we already know, even though it's pretty much a non-issue.
He then uses it to push suspicion on a player, when by far the most likely explanation is ignorance.
His post sucked and reeked of text book dumb playing to divert attention. I called him on it because I don't buy the ignorance excuse.
@ Annorax: Hi! Thank you.
Just a quick point of clarification on your post: who was this sentence directed towards? Because I can read it multiple ways and I'm a tad confused.
I do know that gaming the mod like this is very rarely productive, especially in a Basic.
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I don't have any hard numbers on this, but I'm targeted more often than a black guy driving a beat-up sedan with a broken tail-light and no license plate, and Cy's well aware of that.
His post sucked and reeked of text book dumb playing to divert attention. I called him on it because I don't buy the ignorance excuse.
Trabant777 was the only player so far to get my vote other than RVS vote. After your awful post that reeked of a text book bus job, about some non-issue, just to divert attention, he's receiving it again.
iRebel, in case you missed the case I already made on you/Trabant:
Trabant so far.
Post 42 - Trabant. Swish calls out bad post, or possible slip. Trabant says it looks bad for swish? Am I reading this wrong? At least that's how I read it. Someone correct me if I incorrectly interpreted this:
Thanks for confirmation, we'll lynch you on day three for the win
Hang on. How do you know there are 3 scum?
Seems like you caught on to them guessing at information you already knew.
Posts 51/52 - Trabant barns LMCD with very weak explanation. No real substance. Granted LMCDs posts to that point were scummy, but the explanation for his vote was equally poor.
unvote Honestly, this being my first game, I wasn't aware that first day lynching was taboo... Also my reasoning was a joke, but I really did think that he was acting strange but now I kind of think that wheat grinder is the try to hard type.
Post 99 - admits to lurking...This one really stuck out to me. Lurking still a scummy trait or not?
I'm still trying to get all the terms down heh, sorry! I guess barn means to agree with? Anyway, am mostly just lurking trying to figure out the dynamics :-D
.
I even gave Trabant a benefit of the doubt pass when he played the noob card. You pointed out that's a bad idea. My "noob card" play was not knowing how 'all' basics are setup...really? That's what your going with?
Honestly I really don't have much of an explanation for much of that anymore than what I already stated, which is that I really don't know what I'm doing. I think that is pretty obvious by the lack of consistancy in my posts, or the lack of motivation for anything really. I can't really seem to figure out wether anyone is scum or town.
That being said I do think that sixed and annorax have made posts that seem scummy to me. I am currently going to Vote Annorax I feel like I will get called out for bandwagoning or barning again... But at this point it seems like anything I say is under suspicion so I suppose I will do it anyway.
When you entered game WG called you out as scum, based on Trabant's play. You followed up with a bus job on me about a non-issue topic, to divert attention. Vote Trabant777 / iRebel
Another little tidbit (beating a dead horse). The same FAQ you quoted...read a little further. Not definitive, but does leave grey area. Nice of you to not quote far enough to see it though.
Vanilla Mafia = 4.5 (I have tried this several different ways. Valuing a mafia at 5 seems too high, but valuing one at 4 seems slightly low. I therefore, brilliantly, put it right in the middle. How scientific of me)
Where did I get these numbers from? I started by plugging them into some very basic Mafia set-ups (using 25% Mafia as baseline):
12 players: 9 town, 3 mafia
Town = 1
Mafia = 4.5
In this set-up, the town has 9 points (nine vanilla townies worth 1 point each.) The mafia has 13.5 points (three mafia worth 4.5 each.) Because the mafia “score” is higher, the mafia should win a majority of the games using this set-up if it's correct, and I do believe it is correct. To “balance,” change 2 of the basic townies to a Cop and Doc. Now the points are: Town 14, Mafia 13.5, which is at least close to being even.
The margin of error I decided on is +/- 1 mafia member (or 4.5 points). In other words, if the points add up so that the two sides are within 4.5 of each other, it shouldn’t play as too unbalanced. The vanilla set-up above is actually within this margin of error, and I believe you could play the vanilla set-up and no one would jump up and down at the end about how unfair it was. Similarly, adding a Vigilante role to the town in addition to the Cop and Doc. doesn’t unbalance the game, it just shifts the odds around a little.
The point isn’t to be exact, but to get things in the ballpark.. [/I]
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If the AC repair dude doesn't show up bright and early tomorrow, I'm gonna borrow some of DDS' dental tools to carve out his eye sockets like jack o lanterns.
I never said playing the noob card is a bad idea, I said I thought you did a poor job of it. There's a big difference between the two. If done properly the noob card is a fantastic play. I'm sorry, but this statement:
None of the FAQs or info areas had 12-3 as hardset numbers. This is my first full game...if that info is not listed, no, it is not fair to assume people know that. (After this post, I won't use noob card again.) How could you possibly think a new player would know that info?
Doesn't sound kosher to me, for reasons both Polski and I have outlined. I called you on it, and more specifically, said you had some explaining to do. You, however, opted to reply with an accusation and a vote because I was forceful in my post? Why? Why that when you could have simply debunked my post with an explanation?
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I don't have any hard numbers on this, but I'm targeted more often than a black guy driving a beat-up sedan with a broken tail-light and no license plate, and Cy's well aware of that.
After your awful post that reeked of a text book bus job, about some non-issue, just to divert attention, he's receiving it again.
You wouldn't know what a textbook bus job was if you were staring right at it you don't even know what words you're using!
When you entered game WG called you out as scum, based on Trabant's play. You followed up with a bus job on me about a non-issue topic, to divert attention. Vote Trabant777 / iRebel
Let's review some things that happened here.
1. Wheat said he felt good about me being town.
2. Wheat called iRebel scum.
3. When I applied pressure to you, you.. commend me on my defense (?) and decided to reassess me.
4. When iRebel applies pressure, you effectively regurgitate what WG said about his post and vote him.
This just doesn't sit right with me at all.
Vote MTG~DDS
@Incognito: can you explain your reasoning behind your vote change?
I didn't notice you'd asked a question. I was more worried about the other questions, being at L-2 at the time & all.
I'm Jafar, the evil sorcerer. I'm not sure I understand the flavor & don't want to quote it for fear of modkill, but I'm reading this as being a psychopath & not just the good, trolling kind.
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After your awful post that reeked of a text book bus job, about some non-issue, just to divert attention, he's receiving it again.
You wouldn't know what a textbook bus job was if you were staring right at it you don't even know what words you're using!
I wouldn't know a bus job if I was staring right at it. I don't know what words I'm using. But dammit, if I am not expected to know how ALL basics are set up, and have a firm understanding of all other aspects of the game. And not knowing, well that just makes you scum. Remember, your case on me to this point was that I didn't know ALL basics were set up 9-3. Seems like having less info instead of more info is a town trait not scum...how are you twisting it to that? (haha, i looked up "bus" and it does not mean the same as IRL games. "Driving the bus" or leading town down the wrong road is what its meaning held to me from real life games. So yeah, you apparently were right...I don't). I was just mirroring for ephasis. The beginning of his post was very snide and innaccurate.
1. Wheat said he felt good about me being town. I do too, or at least did, but I feel you are tunneling pretty hard and not realizing that your case is about a number that is completely null.
2. Wheat called iRebel scum. I already had too, it was due to his predecessor's play.
3. When I applied pressure to you, you.. commend me on my defense (?) and decided to reassess me. Reassess you? Grimnar made awkward posts, and he was very lurky. I dove into this with you to feel you out and see your reactions. I liked what I saw. It was not extremely high on radar, but it was a vibe.
4. When iRebel applies pressure, you effectively regurgitate what WG said about his post and vote him. Wow...other than two sentences of that long post it was all my words and quoting my posts. You are trying awfully hard to paint me in a bad light.
Doesn't sound kosher to me, for reasons both Polski and I have outlined. I called you on it, and more specifically, said you had some explaining to do.
No, actually you made a dumb reference to a crappy sitcom from the 50s that reinforces sex role stereotypes, blatant racism, and a main character that regularly "plays dumb" when she is running a gambit.
Should I call you Ricky from here on and have you dinner ready when you get home from your show?
Since you also have the habit of picking and choosing the parts of my posts you want...I already explained more than adequately. Also, as already posted:
Anyway, its a null point now. I think you're just being hard headed if you can't see legitimacy in the question (not saying you have to agree with it, not already knew it, or even like it). It would not be a legitimate question coming from a seasoned veteran, but I guess half of another game doesn't make me that. But if you can't get past that, then agree to disagree. I'm not going to waste anymore posts on this matter.
On a side note from our current duel...
Is it just me or did all the animals get quiet all-around? feels like a lot of lurking right now...I'm not liking the amount of lurking going on.
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If the AC repair dude doesn't show up bright and early tomorrow, I'm gonna borrow some of DDS' dental tools to carve out his eye sockets like jack o lanterns.
I don't have any hard numbers on this, but I'm targeted more often than a black guy driving a beat-up sedan with a broken tail-light and no license plate, and Cy's well aware of that.
More votes on Trabant please. Annorax we can deal D2, though I'll happily vote for either at this point.
I dislike the MTG~DDS wagon. I've tried to build the Trabant/iRebel wagon multiple times, each time getting shot down. Meanwhile, the Annorax/MTG~DDS wagon went super-fast. I take this as a sign that scum are shooting this wagon down.
Trabant gave me a bad feeling, but as of yet I haven't got anything strange from iRebel. On top of that, I doubt that they're both mafia. So I'm torn. I believe DDS is our best candidate, and until I see something off-putting from iRebel, I won't be voting for him.
Also: the DDS wagon has 3 votes. Do you consider that super fast?
Trabant gave me a bad feeling, but as of yet I haven't got anything strange from iRebel. On top of that, I doubt that they're both mafia. So I'm torn. I believe DDS is our best candidate, and until I see something off-putting from iRebel, I won't be voting for him.
Also: the DDS wagon has 3 votes. Do you consider that super fast?
Fair enough. Later today, I'll try to put together a case on Trabant/iRebel as to try to convince you to vote for iRebel. What do you think of Wheat's "iRebel confirms my suspicion as Trabant for scum" post?
Those three votes were made in a span of 7 hours, so yes, I consider that super fast. Compare to the Annorax quickwagon, which all the votes were made in the span of 12 hours.
Trabant gave me a bad feeling, but as of yet I haven't got anything strange from iRebel. On top of that, I doubt that they're both mafia. So I'm torn. I believe DDS is our best candidate, and until I see something off-putting from iRebel, I won't be voting for him.
Also: the DDS wagon has 3 votes. Do you consider that super fast?
/barn Incognito it was pretty fast.
That's also why I don't like the MTG~DDS wagon over the iRebel wagon. Trabant's wagon was pretty slow.
Fair enough. Later today, I'll try to put together a case on Trabant/iRebel as to try to convince you to vote for iRebel. What do you think of Wheat's "iRebel confirms my suspicion as Trabant for scum" post?
That's fair, I'll take whatever you have to say into consideration.
As for Wheat, he's a good player, and I like him, but he's fallible. Then again, so am I, but I trust my own intuition over his right now.
Those three votes were made in a span of 7 hours, so yes, I consider that super fast. Compare to the Annorax quickwagon, which all the votes were made in the span of 12 hours.
Understandable.
@DDS: What are your current reads? Who do you believe are the 3 most likely scum candidates and why?
unvote Honestly, this being my first game, I wasn't aware that first day lynching was taboo... Also my reasoning was a joke, but I really did think that he was acting strange but now I kind of think that wheat grinder is the try to hard type.
When the wagon has dissipated he quickly unvotes and has a flagrant use of the noob card.
Ok, well the reason for the barn was random in that I used a joke to explain the vote, not understanding the implications of doing so. That being said I did think that Lord McDonalds activity was suspicous... However I didn't remember what RVS even was until I looked it up just now. Taking it all into perspective however I still think Lord McD is shady, but I'm more interested in pointing a FoSat MTG~DDS
What is your thought on my alignment if LMcD is town?
Town.
Also, I don't think your defense of LMCD is anti-town (I don't want a quick lynch to turn into a mislynch either), but just a curiosity that deserves some explanation.
Something about this feels off... Like you are trying too hard to sound like you are town... Backing up Wheat Grinder and Lord McD saying you think they are both town... I think that your defense of them is a curiosity that needs further explaining.
In here he points a FoS on MTG~DDS when he still has a vote, and his explanation is that he feels "off".
That being said I do think that sixed and annorax have made posts that seem scummy to me. I am currently going to Vote Annorax I feel like I will get called out for bandwagoning or barning again... But at this point it seems like anything I say is under suspicion so I suppose I will do it anyway.
Another use of the noob card, and in here he totally switches from Lord_McdD and MTG~DDS, opting instead to add yet another vote on Annorax (whose wagon was already developing fast at the time) and mentions Sixed, who has made some bad posts.
Here he replaces out. I think replacing out under pressure is scummy.
When iRebel replaces in he makes a large post on a non-issue to justify his naked vote on MTG~DDS.
Conclusion: I think iRebel/Trabant is scum because
* Flagrant and continued use of the noob card
* bad bandwagoning on two of the major wagons so far
* constant barning and switching suspicions (from L_McD and MTG~DDS to Sixed and Annorax)
* weak justification to vote MTG~DDS
* FoSing when he still have a vote
* replacing out under pressure
Trabant's behavior was sketchy. I won't deny that. iRebel hasn't continued this behavior from my point of view, though. Granted, he hasn't posted enough content for me to get a strong read, but still. I'm not convinced.
Let me break down for you why I believe iRebel's big post about a "non-issue" was actually solid.
The whole reason I started poking DDS was to determine intent. I saw a post that I perceived to be mudslinging, and I called him on it. He tried to backpedal and say that it was a legitimate question, despite the fact that the question was immaterial and bore no weight. He tried to assert that it was possibly privileged information. I claimed that it wasn't, that it was very common knowledge. He denied it, even though he claimed to have read FAQs about it, and iRebel comes in and shows that he had to have been able to figure it out, between checking games or the FAQ. This is reason to believe that DDS lied, either about reading FAQs, or about his intent. It would be pointless to lie about reading FAQs, and so it stands to reason that he lied about intent.
So, what iRebel did reads, to me, more like catching scum and pinning them down, leaving no room to wiggle. Or, at the very least, catching someone in a lie about mudslinging, and such a person should definitely be pressured.
Keep in mind that a role doesn't change when someone replaces in. If person X was acting super scummy and replaces out, and person Y replaces in and starts acting extremely pro-town, I would still push for a lynch on person Y.
He's trying to come up with an argument to avoid being called out on barning.
I know a role doesn't change. I also know that scummy behavior =/= scum in all scenarios.
Maybe I'm just too hesitant. In my first game, I was scum and used the scummy nature of the town to my advantage. It was great, they practically did the work for me in a few cases, the first of which was a day 1 replacement, just like this one. WG should be able to remember it.
Person makes sketchy post, draws a lot of attention, replaces out.
New person joins in, minimal scummy behavior.
Lynched, flips town.
I'm not saying that's the case here, but I'd like to be more sure before we move along.
It is a valid play, but it is a easy way out as well. It is our duty to try to find the reasoning behind them. Don't you agree?
As for the underlined, on the other game I'm playing (my 1st one) I've seen scum using open statements more freely than I'd like; also I've seen other players explaining things before someone asked. Because of that I've done so to not open space to opportunist scum.
Alright then, next question. Regarding your post, it makes it sound like you did believe Annorax's claim. At the time, what reason would you have had to believe it? It's a vanilla claim from someone who hadn't done much but draw attention to himself.
We've had new ideas come in that would suggest his innocence, but not at the time. It makes no sense to have believed him. So why?
I'm sorry, what exactly in my post makes you believe that?
None of the FAQs or info areas had 12-3 as hardset numbers. This is my first full game...if that info is not listed, no, it is not fair to assume people know that. (After this post, I won't use noob card again.)
But he proved it was on the site and showed that DDS was lying.
I really don't believe that a newb wouldn't read this topic on the forum... Ignoring his confusion about the writer here, I don't like his answer at all.
"If you wanted to call out his post, you should have called out the fact that he answered a question that wasn't meant for him." So,Covering for a buddy... You're right. No way that could be calling him out for answering someone else's question.
You started there, sure. But that stopped being your point of focus. you got up in arms about his information, which is nonsensical.
because that was the part called into question...
You are right though. The links you sent does show that can't properly interpret what I read. Reread of the FAQ says "baseline 9-3". I just didn't jump to the assumption that all games were. I concede this point to you. I also like your defense, didn't back off and stuck to your guns. :). I had a weird vibe from Grimnar, I will reset my read and not tunnel on you.
He confirms that he have read it, and just make use of the newb card. I think that if a town player is wrong, he will just say it. There's no point on trying to excuse yourself with lies and plays. So DDS, what you have to say about it?
Now, presenting that, and the the fact that DDS is looking weird, there is something more alarming for me: How does an experienced player as WG has completely ignored this? I know that anybody can be wrong, but for me WG is not looking his better right now as well.
I have reread FAQ, it may be "common knowledge" that ALL basics are split 9-3, but it never says they absolutely always are. Still very confused as to why this is an issue. I have read all my medical texts, dental texts, and OMFS texts cover to cover multiple times. We keep them on hand. Know why? Reference. We don't memorize everything word for word. Same with rules in this game. I have a general understanding, but not a professional. I modkilled myself last game by accident because i was unsure about PM posting. That seems like General knowledge I should have known too, huh? I joined a basic game because it does not have prerequisite of multiple other games or extensive knowledge of the game. When LMCD intercepted someone else's question and answered with info, it looked off to me. Both because it was meant for someone else, but also, because I was not positive that 9-3 was a hardset rule or privileged info. Either way it looked like some sort of slip to me. When I was corrected, I dropped it and did not pursue it at all. The other players ran with it, not me. Why are the people who ran with that, started and pushed his wagon not being questioned. Either they didn't think 9-3 was common knowledge either, or they just wanted an easy wagon to push.
As far as me lying. Why would I lie about reading an FAQ? That is stupid. I reread FAQs PRN when clarification is needed, but I don't memorize them. I apparently didn't do enough homework though...I did not read 13 other basic games. I still feel no need to. I'm not good enough for Meta-analysis yet, and with my busy schedule it really feels like a royal waste of time. I'm not trying to earn a rent check playing a basic. I will give it my best attempt, but in the end, it's a game for fun...nothing more.
As far as claiming my vote was /barn on Trabant. He was my first and only non-RVS vote. WG, Incognito, and Swishh voted him but abandoned the wagon to switch after Annorax's weird post. I then presented my case on him and voted him. I was the only one at the time. I backed off when he played his Noobcard (I understand) but that did not mean I evacuated my suspicion on him. iRebel tunneling back to me aggressively stuck out to me as desperately trying to detract attention from him. In my head, that just confirmed suspicion I already had on Trabant. I'll post more later but I'm currently on call.
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Legacy BSpanish InquisitionB UWU/W StoneBladeWU WUGBant NOGUW BWDeadguy AleWB Modern WDeath and TaxesW EDH BBBalthor ReanimatorBB GBWThe Rock / TenebWBG BBMaralen ANT EDHBB UUHeidar, Winter Is ComingUU
If the AC repair dude doesn't show up bright and early tomorrow, I'm gonna borrow some of DDS' dental tools to carve out his eye sockets like jack o lanterns.
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
My reads on everyone so far. Questions that are directed specifically towards you are bold in your respective spoilers. Enjoy.
Scum reads: Annorax and Trabant*
Has consistent applied heat to MTG~DDS leading to a well-placed vote.
*Agrees with Wheat_Grinder's lesser scum read in 193**
**Questions Wheat_Grinder when he resumes his scum read on Trabant/iRebel in 212.
Aside from flipflopping on Trabant/iRebel, Polski seems pretty town.
The thing about the early bandwagon on you was that you had a weird post during RVS and thus served as a suitable RV magnet. This is sort of what broke us out of RVS.
I strongly dislike how you voted Annorax right after me and Wheat_Grinder in 141. It just looks like you were extremely relieved to have the heat off you and eager to wagon someone else.
You're V/LA now it seems, so it's hard to get a decent read on you.
108 is another of many times I've seen players express hesitance in voting for Trabant. I'm assuming this was because of his being new, but it's interesting that almost everyone has used some phrase along the lines of "I'm hesitant to vote Trabant." I don't really care too much about the use of FoS over voting in this post. 138 is the terrible post that made me vote you in the first place. You flat out state that you're being reckless in voting for L_McD. Bandwagon ensues. 159 is another horrifying post. Why do you feel the need to state things that seem pro-town when they should go without saying? Of course we don't want to mislynch. Of course we don't want to hand town lynches to scum. Of course we want to figure out "who is scum." Do you think saying these things makes you seem town? 191 was the first good post you've made, hence my unvote.
You've been saying Trabant is scummy the entire game. What are your reads on iRebel? 223 is the strongest piece of evidence that you're scum. You've been saying Trabant and L_McD are scummy the entire game but you here you join the bandwagon on MTG~DDS.
You entered the game in a pretty bad position. Trabant's posts were terrible, and I don't think it's a coincidence at all that you've largely ignored L_McD and Annorax. The bandwagon on MTG~DDS was pretty fast, and I also don't think it's a coincidence you've been pushing on him.
240 is the first post with real content from you. And by that I mean it's a bunch of frankly bad reasons for your eventual vote on MTG~DDS, thus putting you on the wagon as well. That doesn't look so good. You also question Wheat_Grinder here.
Not much content from you yet. You FoS Sixed but insist on voting L_McD because of that earlier post which we really have all moved past at this point. You're either a bored town or bad scum.
In 144, why is Sixed's vote on me a "weak bus job?"
In the same post, you're one of the first people who has been willing to vote Trabant.
You put a lot of pressure on Polski in 203, which continues into your later posts. Aside from that, all you do is harp on the number of scum and if we know this or not. Why is this even relevant information at this point? I want you gone.
If MTG~DDS gets lynched and flips scum, Polski will basically be confirmed town.
The only thing really going for you right now is that the wagon on you was fast and iRebel is tunneling the **** out of you. Also, Annorax has been calling Trabant scum all game but turns around and votes you.
By far the worst poster in this game. You haven't posted since in almost a week.
@Mod: Sixed hasn't posted since the 10th. Has he been prodded?
It's interesting that you point out Trabant's being on both the early bandwagons. I wouldn't say this makes him definite scum as he was a self-admitted noob.
I agree with you (and Incognito) for your case on iRebel, but how sure are you about Annorax?
Hello. You are town.
Not seeing much real content from you. What are your thoughts on the MTG~DDS/iRebel situation?
In 144, why is Sixed's vote on me a "weak bus job?" Actually as Polski pointed out in post 222, I had an erroneous definition of bus from my IRL play. Knowing the correct definition, that's not what I meant. Mudslinging would probably have been a better term to use, but not sure at this point.
In the same post, you're one of the first people who has been willing to vote Trabant.
You put a lot of pressure on Polski in 203, which continues into your later posts. Aside from that, all you do is harp on the number of scum and if we know this or not. Why is this even relevant information at this point? Believe me, I don't feel this point to be relevant either and I'm tired of writing about it. But for some reason thats what all questions directed at me at this point have been about...I feel it is beyond beating a dead horse.
I want you gone. Is that the only reason you want me gone or something else?
If MTG~DDS gets lynched and flips scum, Polski will basically be confirmed town. And what happens when I flip town? Would your read on him change?
The only thing really going for you right now is that the wagon on you was fast and iRebel is tunneling the **** out of you. Also, Annorax has been calling Trabant scum all game but turns around and votes you.
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Legacy BSpanish InquisitionB UWU/W StoneBladeWU WUGBant NOGUW BWDeadguy AleWB Modern WDeath and TaxesW EDH BBBalthor ReanimatorBB GBWThe Rock / TenebWBG BBMaralen ANT EDHBB UUHeidar, Winter Is ComingUU
If the AC repair dude doesn't show up bright and early tomorrow, I'm gonna borrow some of DDS' dental tools to carve out his eye sockets like jack o lanterns.
MTG~DDS, if you flip town, it won't effect my read on Polski too much. I would say that if you get lynched today and flip town then that will be stronger evidence that iRebel is scum, but we should lynch iRebel today and just skip what I think would be a mislynch.
I could get behind lynching either iRebel/trabant or MTG~DDS today. I'm convinced they're both scum, the one that doesn't get lynched today can easily be dealt with D2.
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Hey all... I'm retired, not dead. Check out what I'm doing these days (and beg me to come back if you want):
I don't have any hard numbers on this, but I'm targeted more often than a black guy driving a beat-up sedan with a broken tail-light and no license plate, and Cy's well aware of that.
@DDS: What are your current reads? Who do you believe are the 3 most likely scum candidates and why?
iRebel is obviously my strongest read and where my vote is now. Mainly from Trabant's play, but more recently solidified on his attack on me for a null point.
I am getting a read on Swishh as mafia too. His reads are swerving through traffic doing 180 u-turns. Seems his reads are just mirroring what seems to be group consensus. That feels pretty scummy.
Here's what I mean, his recent reads are very flipped from a few posts ago:
His case on me seems to hinge on the numbers thing, which I agree, I don't want to hear about anymore either. If that is a null point, and I was previously your "most town" read, what really changed?
I could get behind lynching either iRebel/trabant or MTG~DDS today. I'm convinced they're both scum, the one that doesn't get lynched today can easily be dealt with D2.
lynch iRebel today and me the next. That seems to be horrible logic. Why would two scum members out each other, fight each other so openly, and get the other killed on day 1? Even trying to build town cred, that seems like a horrible idea to cut your team by 1/3 on day one! Maybe I'm naive, but that seems to be trying to set up tomorrow's case on faulty logic. I also really do not like the post that started him under fire, either. It has already been discussed though.
My reads right now are: iRebel, Swishh, and Annorax as scum reads. Polski, WG, and Incognito seem pretty solidly town as of now. LMCD made bad posts and is kinda suspicious, but much lower on my radar. I think the comment that he started taking fire for was still (in his head) RVS and meant to be funny. I agree it was a horrible post, but i want some more content from him before I make up my mind more about him. Sixed is VERY lurky and I don't like that. Not much to go on there except his comment about Swishh that he did not elaborate on. Magenta seems to be going with the flow of what is popular at the time, not giving solid input. His opinion seems to sway pretty easily. Everyone else is kinda null at this point to me.
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Legacy BSpanish InquisitionB UWU/W StoneBladeWU WUGBant NOGUW BWDeadguy AleWB Modern WDeath and TaxesW EDH BBBalthor ReanimatorBB GBWThe Rock / TenebWBG BBMaralen ANT EDHBB UUHeidar, Winter Is ComingUU
If the AC repair dude doesn't show up bright and early tomorrow, I'm gonna borrow some of DDS' dental tools to carve out his eye sockets like jack o lanterns.
Sixed has been forcibly replaced out due to not responding to a prod within 48 hours. I am currently looking for a replacement and will post when such replacement has been made.
I could get behind lynching either iRebel/trabant or MTG~DDS today. I'm convinced they're both scum, the one that doesn't get lynched today can easily be dealt with D2.
This doesn't even make any sense. In what possible way do their interactions indicate they're scum partners?
The collective logic saying I'm scum quite frankly makes little sense.
1. The overwhelming drive on my suspicion as scum is based on Trabant's posts. You say they sucked. I say they sucked. We all agree they suck. The suspicion of Trabant makes sense. I am not Trabant. I am iRebel, and I cannot disown the posts of Trabant. I'm stuck with them in my history. Pushing to lynch me before I have a chance to provide solid reads to the entire town reeks of a scum agenda. Off the replacement before he can undo our frame job on Trabant! Why else would there be a strong push to get rid of me?
2. If I were scum, why on EARTH would I use my first big post to call someone out? From a scum mentality, wouldn't I want to take a lower key approach at first? Settle back and slowly work my way into the fold? Doing so would keep my profile lower. Lower profile works better, imo, for lowering scum suspicion than jumping right in like I did.
3. MTG~DDS does raise a good point: If we both were scum we'd be fools for going after one another's necks like we are. One of us was caught in a lie/misrepresentation, one of us was not (hint: I wasn't the one caught). So if we're going off scummy behaviour, I'm pretty sure MTG~DDS is displaying more scummy behaviour than I am.
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I don't have any hard numbers on this, but I'm targeted more often than a black guy driving a beat-up sedan with a broken tail-light and no license plate, and Cy's well aware of that.
#3 is why I called out Annorax for being "convinced" both of you are scum
@MTG~DDS: the only thing that has changed from that list you quoted is that you are now a potential scum read. Please show where my reads have done a "180."
Not seeing much real content from you. What are your thoughts on the MTG~DDS/iRebel situation?
This post is half-a note to remind me where I've read up to, half-I've noted your question and will answer when I wake up and get to work, and half-a 3/2 post.
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She wants a ride on the pony, dude.
Mafia Stats
Kill shot: BB
Issue with my shooting? Please visit my helpdesk and help me learn to aim!
The collective logic saying I'm scum quite frankly makes little sense.
1. The overwhelming drive on my suspicion as scum is based on Trabant's posts. You say they sucked. I say they sucked. We all agree they suck. The suspicion of Trabant makes sense. I am not Trabant. I am iRebel, and I cannot disown the posts of Trabant. I'm stuck with them in my history. Pushing to lynch me before I have a chance to provide solid reads to the entire town reeks of a scum agenda. Off the replacement before he can undo our frame job on Trabant! Why else would there be a strong push to get rid of me?
Why the coloration?
Also I want to lynch you solely because of your play. Trabant merely alerted me to you, you were the one who put down the scumposts.
2. If I were scum, why on EARTH would I use my first big post to call someone out? From a scum mentality, wouldn't I want to take a lower key approach at first? Settle back and slowly work my way into the fold? Doing so would keep my profile lower. Lower profile works better, imo, for lowering scum suspicion than jumping right in like I did.
Both cups contain iocane powder.
3. MTG~DDS does raise a good point: If we both were scum we'd be fools for going after one another's necks like we are. One of us was caught in a lie/misrepresentation, one of us was not (hint: I wasn't the one caught). So if we're going off scummy behaviour, I'm pretty sure MTG~DDS is displaying more scummy behaviour than I am.
You know I actually kinda feel like either DDS and iRebel are both town or both scum after both having posted the same idea.
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UUU Azami, Lady of Scrolls
RRR Diaochan, Artful Beauty
UR(U/R) Tibor, Lumia, & Melek (WIP)
Mafia Stats
Hello. You are scum.
I'm feeling good about Polski being town.
I did. I studied this game for quite a bit before I ever even considered playing, read through a few games and checked the wiki for pretty much everything that I could think of. Maybe I looked into it too much, but as far as I'm concerned, being new to the game is no excuse for not knowing things you easily could.
You started there, sure. But that stopped being your point of focus. you got up in arms about his information, which is nonsensical.
Perhaps I do assume too much, and expect too much. I expect people to have done their homework, because I assume that anyone that wanted to win would see the benefit of gathering knowledge. I expect newbs, not noobs.
So if I lower my expectations a bit, yes, I can see how your question might be legitimate. You'd do well to word things differently in the future, because the way you worded it gives the impression of, as wheat put it, blatant mudslinging.
The reason I said it would be rare rather than impossible is because like you, I'm new to the game. I looked quite extensively, but I never found a basic that had more than 3 scum. That said, I'm human, and my knowledge is fallible. It wouldn't surprise me if somewhere out there, a 4-scum basic happened. However, I believe such an occurrence would be so rare as to be negligible when considering the setup for other games.
Legacy
WW Death and Taxes WW
Modern
WBMartyr-Proc BW
Hello. You are a bread maker.
@ MTG~DDS:
I'm having a hard time buying the way you're playing the noob card.
1. There is no hard set rule for Mafia other than you have a team of townies and a team of mafia. That's it. After that there's a plethora of rules that's considered common knowledge, but no requirement they be observed. If you've done any reading about the game (which you have all implied) then I'd like to think you'd have some inclination about that.
2. Given you have implied you've done some reading, it's not unfair to assume you'd have read the aptly named Welcome to the Mafia Subforum! (Rules, Info, and Articles) (emphasis added). Looking at post four, we see…
Emphasis, once again, added. So that's strike one against your assertion that said information isn't available. Next, why would you not take it upon yourself in your reading/digging to check out current games to see what they're like? That seems to me as if it would be common sense, and one of the first places I'd go.
Here's a link to every basic game on the first page:
- http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=502228 (9 Town, 3 Mafia)
- http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=471500 (closed setup)
- http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=466270 (this one seems weird to me)
- http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=489524 (game over, 3 mafia)
- http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=464512 (game over, 3 mafia)
- http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=442975 (current game, 2 confirmed mafia)
- http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=438111 (game over, 3 mafia)
- http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=429863 (game over, some digging required to find out it has 3 mafia. See here then here, then lastly, here)
- http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=413812 (game over, 3 mafia)
- http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=419251 (game over, 3 mafia, see post 2)
- http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=405144 (game over, mafia win w/ 2 dead mafia, means 3 total)
- http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=406416 (game over, town victory. # of mafia to begin with not certain, then see here: click -- 3 mafia)
- http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=406167 (game over, see here for 3 mafia)
That's 13 basic games, this one notwithstanding, on the first page. Two of them we cannot tell the number of mafia count, giving us 11/13 known, or 84.6% of basic games. If you looked at any basics it's extremely likely you'd have stumbled across the 9/3 basic split.
So yeah, I'm not buying your assertion you "didn't know", and I feel as if you're doing a poor job of playing dumb to try and cover the fact you're a Mafioso.
Lucy, you got some 'splainin to do.
UUU Azami, Lady of Scrolls
RRR Diaochan, Artful Beauty
UR(U/R) Tibor, Lumia, & Melek (WIP)
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Care to explain why?
Legacy
WW Death and Taxes WW
Modern
WBMartyr-Proc BW
You are right though. The links you sent does show that can't properly interpret what I read. Reread of the FAQ says "baseline 9-3". I just didn't jump to the assumption that all games were. I concede this point to you. I also like your defense, didn't back off and stuck to your guns. :). I had a weird vibe from Grimnar, I will reset my read and not tunnel on you.
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BSpanish InquisitionB
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WUGBant NOGUW
BWDeadguy AleWB
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EDH
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GBWThe Rock / TenebWBG
BBMaralen ANT EDHBB
UUHeidar, Winter Is ComingUU
In his first actual post of the game, he made a very large post detailing exactly why we know something we already know, even though it's pretty much a non-issue.
He then uses it to push suspicion on a player, when by far the most likely explanation is ignorance.
Welcome to the game, iRebel
QFT. I've never seen a Basic with anything other than a 9/3 split. I doubt anything different would've gotten past review. I do know that gaming the mod like this is very rarely productive, especially in a Basic.
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His post sucked and reeked of text book dumb playing to divert attention. I called him on it because I don't buy the ignorance excuse.
@ Annorax: Hi! Thank you.
Just a quick point of clarification on your post: who was this sentence directed towards? Because I can read it multiple ways and I'm a tad confused.
UUU Azami, Lady of Scrolls
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Unvote, vote iRebel
Trabant777 was the only player so far to get my vote other than RVS vote. After your awful post that reeked of a text book bus job, about some non-issue, just to divert attention, he's receiving it again.
iRebel, in case you missed the case I already made on you/Trabant:
I even gave Trabant a benefit of the doubt pass when he played the noob card. You pointed out that's a bad idea. My "noob card" play was not knowing how 'all' basics are setup...really? That's what your going with?
Trabant's Noobcard that I let him use:
When you entered game WG called you out as scum, based on Trabant's play. You followed up with a bus job on me about a non-issue topic, to divert attention. Vote Trabant777 / iRebel
Another little tidbit (beating a dead horse). The same FAQ you quoted...read a little further. Not definitive, but does leave grey area. Nice of you to not quote far enough to see it though.
Where did I get these numbers from? I started by plugging them into some very basic Mafia set-ups (using 25% Mafia as baseline):
12 players: 9 town, 3 mafia
Town = 1
Mafia = 4.5
In this set-up, the town has 9 points (nine vanilla townies worth 1 point each.) The mafia has 13.5 points (three mafia worth 4.5 each.) Because the mafia “score” is higher, the mafia should win a majority of the games using this set-up if it's correct, and I do believe it is correct. To “balance,” change 2 of the basic townies to a Cop and Doc. Now the points are: Town 14, Mafia 13.5, which is at least close to being even.
The margin of error I decided on is +/- 1 mafia member (or 4.5 points). In other words, if the points add up so that the two sides are within 4.5 of each other, it shouldn’t play as too unbalanced. The vanilla set-up above is actually within this margin of error, and I believe you could play the vanilla set-up and no one would jump up and down at the end about how unfair it was. Similarly, adding a Vigilante role to the town in addition to the Cop and Doc. doesn’t unbalance the game, it just shifts the odds around a little.
The point isn’t to be exact, but to get things in the ballpark.. [/I]
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BSpanish InquisitionB
UWU/W StoneBladeWU
WUGBant NOGUW
BWDeadguy AleWB
Modern
WDeath and TaxesW
EDH
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GBWThe Rock / TenebWBG
BBMaralen ANT EDHBB
UUHeidar, Winter Is ComingUU
I never said playing the noob card is a bad idea, I said I thought you did a poor job of it. There's a big difference between the two. If done properly the noob card is a fantastic play. I'm sorry, but this statement:
Doesn't sound kosher to me, for reasons both Polski and I have outlined. I called you on it, and more specifically, said you had some explaining to do. You, however, opted to reply with an accusation and a vote because I was forceful in my post? Why? Why that when you could have simply debunked my post with an explanation?
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Mafia Stats
You wouldn't know what a textbook bus job was if you were staring right at it you don't even know what words you're using!
Let's review some things that happened here.
1. Wheat said he felt good about me being town.
2. Wheat called iRebel scum.
3. When I applied pressure to you, you.. commend me on my defense (?) and decided to reassess me.
4. When iRebel applies pressure, you effectively regurgitate what WG said about his post and vote him.
This just doesn't sit right with me at all.
Vote MTG~DDS
@Incognito: can you explain your reasoning behind your vote change?
Legacy
WW Death and Taxes WW
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That was directed at MTGDDS; you called him out & were right to do so, since IIRC there's never been a basic that wasn't 9/3.
Unvote; Vote MTG~DDS
I didn't notice you'd asked a question. I was more worried about the other questions, being at L-2 at the time & all.
I'm Jafar, the evil sorcerer. I'm not sure I understand the flavor & don't want to quote it for fear of modkill, but I'm reading this as being a psychopath & not just the good, trolling kind.
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I wouldn't know a bus job if I was staring right at it. I don't know what words I'm using. But dammit, if I am not expected to know how ALL basics are set up, and have a firm understanding of all other aspects of the game. And not knowing, well that just makes you scum. Remember, your case on me to this point was that I didn't know ALL basics were set up 9-3. Seems like having less info instead of more info is a town trait not scum...how are you twisting it to that? (haha, i looked up "bus" and it does not mean the same as IRL games. "Driving the bus" or leading town down the wrong road is what its meaning held to me from real life games. So yeah, you apparently were right...I don't). I was just mirroring for ephasis. The beginning of his post was very snide and innaccurate.
No, actually you made a dumb reference to a crappy sitcom from the 50s that reinforces sex role stereotypes, blatant racism, and a main character that regularly "plays dumb" when she is running a gambit.
Should I call you Ricky from here on and have you dinner ready when you get home from your show?
Since you also have the habit of picking and choosing the parts of my posts you want...I already explained more than adequately. Also, as already posted:
On a side note from our current duel...
Is it just me or did all the animals get quiet all-around? feels like a lot of lurking right now...I'm not liking the amount of lurking going on.
Thanks to Ace of Spades for the Sig and avatar!!
My Decks
BSpanish InquisitionB
UWU/W StoneBladeWU
WUGBant NOGUW
BWDeadguy AleWB
Modern
WDeath and TaxesW
EDH
BBBalthor ReanimatorBB
GBWThe Rock / TenebWBG
BBMaralen ANT EDHBB
UUHeidar, Winter Is ComingUU
UUU Azami, Lady of Scrolls
RRR Diaochan, Artful Beauty
UR(U/R) Tibor, Lumia, & Melek (WIP)
Mafia Stats
I dislike the MTG~DDS wagon. I've tried to build the Trabant/iRebel wagon multiple times, each time getting shot down. Meanwhile, the Annorax/MTG~DDS wagon went super-fast. I take this as a sign that scum are shooting this wagon down.
Also: the DDS wagon has 3 votes. Do you consider that super fast?
Legacy
WW Death and Taxes WW
Modern
WBMartyr-Proc BW
Fair enough. Later today, I'll try to put together a case on Trabant/iRebel as to try to convince you to vote for iRebel. What do you think of Wheat's "iRebel confirms my suspicion as Trabant for scum" post?
Those three votes were made in a span of 7 hours, so yes, I consider that super fast. Compare to the Annorax quickwagon, which all the votes were made in the span of 12 hours.
/barn Incognito it was pretty fast.
That's also why I don't like the MTG~DDS wagon over the iRebel wagon. Trabant's wagon was pretty slow.
That's fair, I'll take whatever you have to say into consideration.
As for Wheat, he's a good player, and I like him, but he's fallible. Then again, so am I, but I trust my own intuition over his right now.
Understandable.
@DDS: What are your current reads? Who do you believe are the 3 most likely scum candidates and why?
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WW Death and Taxes WW
Modern
WBMartyr-Proc BW
This is just bad bandwagoning. Keep in mind that four votes have been placed on Lord_McD prior to this.
When the wagon has dissipated he quickly unvotes and has a flagrant use of the noob card.
In here he points a FoS on MTG~DDS when he still has a vote, and his explanation is that he feels "off".
Another use of the noob card, and in here he totally switches from Lord_McdD and MTG~DDS, opting instead to add yet another vote on Annorax (whose wagon was already developing fast at the time) and mentions Sixed, who has made some bad posts.
Here he replaces out. I think replacing out under pressure is scummy.
When iRebel replaces in he makes a large post on a non-issue to justify his naked vote on MTG~DDS.
Conclusion: I think iRebel/Trabant is scum because
* Flagrant and continued use of the noob card
* bad bandwagoning on two of the major wagons so far
* constant barning and switching suspicions (from L_McD and MTG~DDS to Sixed and Annorax)
* weak justification to vote MTG~DDS
* FoSing when he still have a vote
* replacing out under pressure
Let me break down for you why I believe iRebel's big post about a "non-issue" was actually solid.
The whole reason I started poking DDS was to determine intent. I saw a post that I perceived to be mudslinging, and I called him on it. He tried to backpedal and say that it was a legitimate question, despite the fact that the question was immaterial and bore no weight. He tried to assert that it was possibly privileged information. I claimed that it wasn't, that it was very common knowledge. He denied it, even though he claimed to have read FAQs about it, and iRebel comes in and shows that he had to have been able to figure it out, between checking games or the FAQ. This is reason to believe that DDS lied, either about reading FAQs, or about his intent. It would be pointless to lie about reading FAQs, and so it stands to reason that he lied about intent.
So, what iRebel did reads, to me, more like catching scum and pinning them down, leaving no room to wiggle. Or, at the very least, catching someone in a lie about mudslinging, and such a person should definitely be pressured.
Clarification here, which do you mean is scummy? barning, or coming up with his own argument?
The scummiest thing I've seen iRebel do is jump on DDS after there were already votes on him.
Legacy
WW Death and Taxes WW
Modern
WBMartyr-Proc BW
He's trying to come up with an argument to avoid being called out on barning.
Maybe I'm just too hesitant. In my first game, I was scum and used the scummy nature of the town to my advantage. It was great, they practically did the work for me in a few cases, the first of which was a day 1 replacement, just like this one. WG should be able to remember it.
Person makes sketchy post, draws a lot of attention, replaces out.
New person joins in, minimal scummy behavior.
Lynched, flips town.
I'm not saying that's the case here, but I'd like to be more sure before we move along.
Legacy
WW Death and Taxes WW
Modern
WBMartyr-Proc BW
How "sure" would you like to be? How are you measuring this sure-ness? Are you willing to bite the bullet even if you aren't sure?
Mafia Stats
Kill shot: BB
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I'm sorry, what exactly in my post makes you believe that?
DDS has said that the info about 9-3 games wasn't available:
But he proved it was on the site and showed that DDS was lying.
I really don't believe that a newb wouldn't read this topic on the forum... Ignoring his confusion about the writer here, I don't like his answer at all.
He confirms that he have read it, and just make use of the newb card. I think that if a town player is wrong, he will just say it. There's no point on trying to excuse yourself with lies and plays. So DDS, what you have to say about it?
Now, presenting that, and the the fact that DDS is looking weird, there is something more alarming for me: How does an experienced player as WG has completely ignored this? I know that anybody can be wrong, but for me WG is not looking his better right now as well.
Also, I'd like to Vote DDS for now.
As far as me lying. Why would I lie about reading an FAQ? That is stupid. I reread FAQs PRN when clarification is needed, but I don't memorize them. I apparently didn't do enough homework though...I did not read 13 other basic games. I still feel no need to. I'm not good enough for Meta-analysis yet, and with my busy schedule it really feels like a royal waste of time. I'm not trying to earn a rent check playing a basic. I will give it my best attempt, but in the end, it's a game for fun...nothing more.
As far as claiming my vote was /barn on Trabant. He was my first and only non-RVS vote. WG, Incognito, and Swishh voted him but abandoned the wagon to switch after Annorax's weird post. I then presented my case on him and voted him. I was the only one at the time. I backed off when he played his Noobcard (I understand) but that did not mean I evacuated my suspicion on him. iRebel tunneling back to me aggressively stuck out to me as desperately trying to detract attention from him. In my head, that just confirmed suspicion I already had on Trabant. I'll post more later but I'm currently on call.
Thanks to Ace of Spades for the Sig and avatar!!
My Decks
BSpanish InquisitionB
UWU/W StoneBladeWU
WUGBant NOGUW
BWDeadguy AleWB
Modern
WDeath and TaxesW
EDH
BBBalthor ReanimatorBB
GBWThe Rock / TenebWBG
BBMaralen ANT EDHBB
UUHeidar, Winter Is ComingUU
Scum reads: Annorax and Trabant*
Has consistent applied heat to MTG~DDS leading to a well-placed vote.
*Agrees with Wheat_Grinder's lesser scum read in 193**
**Questions Wheat_Grinder when he resumes his scum read on Trabant/iRebel in 212.
Aside from flipflopping on Trabant/iRebel, Polski seems pretty town.
The thing about the early bandwagon on you was that you had a weird post during RVS and thus served as a suitable RV magnet. This is sort of what broke us out of RVS.
I strongly dislike how you voted Annorax right after me and Wheat_Grinder in 141. It just looks like you were extremely relieved to have the heat off you and eager to wagon someone else.
You're V/LA now it seems, so it's hard to get a decent read on you.
108 is another of many times I've seen players express hesitance in voting for Trabant. I'm assuming this was because of his being new, but it's interesting that almost everyone has used some phrase along the lines of "I'm hesitant to vote Trabant." I don't really care too much about the use of FoS over voting in this post.
138 is the terrible post that made me vote you in the first place. You flat out state that you're being reckless in voting for L_McD. Bandwagon ensues.
159 is another horrifying post. Why do you feel the need to state things that seem pro-town when they should go without saying? Of course we don't want to mislynch. Of course we don't want to hand town lynches to scum. Of course we want to figure out "who is scum." Do you think saying these things makes you seem town?
191 was the first good post you've made, hence my unvote.
You've been saying Trabant is scummy the entire game. What are your reads on iRebel?
223 is the strongest piece of evidence that you're scum. You've been saying Trabant and L_McD are scummy the entire game but you here you join the bandwagon on MTG~DDS.
You entered the game in a pretty bad position. Trabant's posts were terrible, and I don't think it's a coincidence at all that you've largely ignored L_McD and Annorax. The bandwagon on MTG~DDS was pretty fast, and I also don't think it's a coincidence you've been pushing on him.
240 is the first post with real content from you. And by that I mean it's a bunch of frankly bad reasons for your eventual vote on MTG~DDS, thus putting you on the wagon as well. That doesn't look so good. You also question Wheat_Grinder here.
Not much content from you yet. You FoS Sixed but insist on voting L_McD because of that earlier post which we really have all moved past at this point. You're either a bored town or bad scum.
In 144, why is Sixed's vote on me a "weak bus job?"
In the same post, you're one of the first people who has been willing to vote Trabant.
You put a lot of pressure on Polski in 203, which continues into your later posts. Aside from that, all you do is harp on the number of scum and if we know this or not. Why is this even relevant information at this point? I want you gone.
If MTG~DDS gets lynched and flips scum, Polski will basically be confirmed town.
The only thing really going for you right now is that the wagon on you was fast and iRebel is tunneling the **** out of you. Also, Annorax has been calling Trabant scum all game but turns around and votes you.
By far the worst poster in this game. You haven't posted since in almost a week.
It's interesting that you point out Trabant's being on both the early bandwagons. I wouldn't say this makes him definite scum as he was a self-admitted noob.
I agree with you (and Incognito) for your case on iRebel, but how sure are you about Annorax?
Hello. You are town.
Not seeing much real content from you. What are your thoughts on the MTG~DDS/iRebel situation?
Unvote
Vote: iRebel
Thanks to Ace of Spades for the Sig and avatar!!
My Decks
BSpanish InquisitionB
UWU/W StoneBladeWU
WUGBant NOGUW
BWDeadguy AleWB
Modern
WDeath and TaxesW
EDH
BBBalthor ReanimatorBB
GBWThe Rock / TenebWBG
BBMaralen ANT EDHBB
UUHeidar, Winter Is ComingUU
Please click here.
***
Votecount 1.6
Lord_McDonalds (2): TK-421, MRHBlue,
Magenta (1): Sixed
Annorax (1): Lord_McDonalds,
iRebel (4): Wheat_Grinder, Incognito, MTG~DDS, swishh
MTG~DDS (4): Polski, Annorax, iRebel, Magenta,
With 12 Alive, it's 7 to lynch.
I could get behind lynching either iRebel/trabant or MTG~DDS today. I'm convinced they're both scum, the one that doesn't get lynched today can easily be dealt with D2.
https://twitch.tv/annorax10 (classic retro speedruns & occasional MTGO/MTGA screwaround streams)
https://twitch.tv/SwiftorCasino (yes, my team and I run live dealer games for the baldman using his channel points as chips)
Though if you do mislynch me today, how will that effect your reads? Same question to Annorax.
UUU Azami, Lady of Scrolls
RRR Diaochan, Artful Beauty
UR(U/R) Tibor, Lumia, & Melek (WIP)
Mafia Stats
iRebel is obviously my strongest read and where my vote is now. Mainly from Trabant's play, but more recently solidified on his attack on me for a null point.
I am getting a read on Swishh as mafia too. His reads are swerving through traffic doing 180 u-turns. Seems his reads are just mirroring what seems to be group consensus. That feels pretty scummy.
Here's what I mean, his recent reads are very flipped from a few posts ago:
Annorax made a comment as well...
My reads right now are: iRebel, Swishh, and Annorax as scum reads. Polski, WG, and Incognito seem pretty solidly town as of now. LMCD made bad posts and is kinda suspicious, but much lower on my radar. I think the comment that he started taking fire for was still (in his head) RVS and meant to be funny. I agree it was a horrible post, but i want some more content from him before I make up my mind more about him. Sixed is VERY lurky and I don't like that. Not much to go on there except his comment about Swishh that he did not elaborate on. Magenta seems to be going with the flow of what is popular at the time, not giving solid input. His opinion seems to sway pretty easily. Everyone else is kinda null at this point to me.
Thanks to Ace of Spades for the Sig and avatar!!
My Decks
BSpanish InquisitionB
UWU/W StoneBladeWU
WUGBant NOGUW
BWDeadguy AleWB
Modern
WDeath and TaxesW
EDH
BBBalthor ReanimatorBB
GBWThe Rock / TenebWBG
BBMaralen ANT EDHBB
UUHeidar, Winter Is ComingUU
This doesn't even make any sense. In what possible way do their interactions indicate they're scum partners?
If you flip town I'll have to rethink Wheat_Grinder.
1. The overwhelming drive on my suspicion as scum is based on Trabant's posts. You say they sucked. I say they sucked. We all agree they suck. The suspicion of Trabant makes sense. I am not Trabant. I am iRebel, and I cannot disown the posts of Trabant. I'm stuck with them in my history. Pushing to lynch me before I have a chance to provide solid reads to the entire town reeks of a scum agenda. Off the replacement before he can undo our frame job on Trabant! Why else would there be a strong push to get rid of me?
2. If I were scum, why on EARTH would I use my first big post to call someone out? From a scum mentality, wouldn't I want to take a lower key approach at first? Settle back and slowly work my way into the fold? Doing so would keep my profile lower. Lower profile works better, imo, for lowering scum suspicion than jumping right in like I did.
3. MTG~DDS does raise a good point: If we both were scum we'd be fools for going after one another's necks like we are. One of us was caught in a lie/misrepresentation, one of us was not (hint: I wasn't the one caught). So if we're going off scummy behaviour, I'm pretty sure MTG~DDS is displaying more scummy behaviour than I am.
UUU Azami, Lady of Scrolls
RRR Diaochan, Artful Beauty
UR(U/R) Tibor, Lumia, & Melek (WIP)
Mafia Stats
@MTG~DDS: the only thing that has changed from that list you quoted is that you are now a potential scum read. Please show where my reads have done a "180."
This post is half-a note to remind me where I've read up to, half-I've noted your question and will answer when I wake up and get to work, and half-a 3/2 post.
Mafia Stats
Kill shot: BB
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This is not townie phrasing.
Why the coloration?
Also I want to lynch you solely because of your play. Trabant merely alerted me to you, you were the one who put down the scumposts.
Both cups contain iocane powder.
You know I actually kinda feel like either DDS and iRebel are both town or both scum after both having posted the same idea.