From Iso: "Occam's Razor says you're the last scum, Voxx.
Period.
You're asking me to modgame to account for how you could be town.
And yet you're telling me not to modgame.
Double standard = no."
A No lynch would loose the game for the town:
1.) Voxx is scum and since he is an experienced player managed to convince Zindabad that he's town behaviorally. He's lying about being vanilla town. He was unchecked last night, and the mafia kill was preformed. It's the simplest answer, and the best answer.
If he's unblockable and the jail doesn't effect him, he kills me and convinces Zinda to lynch seppel for the win tomorrow.
2.) Seppel is scum and has an unblockable kill that works through the jailer. Zinda is saying he's going to jail either me or Voxx, and Seppel knows I think Voxx is scum: He kills Zinda, and we lynch Voxx tomorrow for the scum win. Or he submits no kill, then when we start the day with no deaths whoever Zinda blocked is considered scum and lynched.
Regardless of which one of the two of you is scum, the town can't win with a no lynch.
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The problem is that we can't actually learn anything from a no lynch at this point.
Seppel's scum. If you block him and there's no kill, he'll claim that I just no-killed.
If you block myself or WoLG, he won't kill, and will attempt to pin it on us. Or he might kill, and will just claim that we're the unblockable ones, clearly.
It's WiFOM, and the only thing it will accomplish is either getting you killed, or being right back here tomorrow with four alive.
If we lynch today, there's at least the outside chance that you can jail Seppel tonight if you're forced to lynch me.
Realistically I don't think you'll be able to. I think he's probably permanently unblockable - but there's at least the chance that he just had a 1-shot ninja kill as part of his Mafia JoaT role.
Seppel needs to be the lynch today.
The logic against lynching him and jailing me is so circular that it hurts my brain.
'But what if you're unblockable!!1!'
If you're acknowledging that there could be an unblockable role, why are people assuming it's me, instead of the person only being cleared because he was just jailed?
I don't understand it. Iso in particular is just being terrible.
If you're acknowledging that there could be an unblockable role, why are people assuming it's me, instead of the person only being cleared because he was just jailed?
Except I was jailed after Stardust was lynched, and you were jailed before Stardust was lynched. You keep trying to say that we're alike, but we aren't.
You also seem to have all the night actions plotted out, showing that a NL results in a NK. You keep talking about some sort of unblockability to push that we need to lynch today, which makes me think that it's a passive ability you have. You're sticking to the story that you're vanilla, and with the tracker and watcher in the setup, I can believe that you don't have an activated ability, and instead, you have an unblockable kill.
But regardless of your abilities, I don't believe WoLG could be mafia, and Zindabad is clear.
I don't believe that you missed the unvote. You were doing the thing where you were all 'LOOK HOW TOWN I AM'. But it's not exactly something that can be proven, so whatever.
I'm talking about unblockability, because you have it, in some form.
I'm town. WoLG is probably town. Zindabad is confirmed town.
That means that last night, you were both jailed, AND still committed the kill. There are a couple ways that could happen, with a passive unblockability as part of your role being the most likely. A 1-shot ninja kill would also work, as part of your Scum!JoaT role.
In a vacuum, you are the most likely scum remaining just from behavior and voting analysis.
So the only thing keeping you from being lynched today is the jail. Literally, that's the only thing in your favor.
So I suggest lynching you, and jailing me tonight.
If you try to shoot that down as 'Voxx could be unblockable', I'm pointing out that it is terrible, circular logic. If you admit that unblockability could exist, then you have to acknowledge that the person only cleared from the jail is much more likely to have it.
That's what I was trying to explain to WoLG/Iso/Zindabad. That the logic being used there was terrible.
From my perspective, you /have/ to have some way to circumvent the jailing, hence wanting you lynched. It's basic logic.
The only real hope is that it was only a one-shot, and Zinda can stop your kill tonight, if he goes through with lynching me.
Because this is stupid.
It's simple risk aversion - lynch Seppel, since in the worlds where he is scum, he's already shown that he can bypass the jail, and jail me tonight if it gets that far.
But it won't get that far, and Seppel knows it.
Because he'll flip scum, and end the game.
He's so quick to point out that it says 'end game', when the obvious interpretation there is that he can't be blocked.
If people want to try and fearmonger about 'oh no, then Voxx could be unblockable', then you have to consider that Seppel could be, as well - and you need to go back to behavior.
There is nothing Seppel has done this game that is remotely town, and it's stupid and frustrating and exasperating that people are dismissing his god awful behavior based on the jail.
Then trying to use the logic where Seppel can't be unblockable, but I could be is even more exasperating.
I don't understand why not lynch Seppel and end the game. The only reason I even mention being able to jail me afterwards is because it gives them some peace of mind, and a backup plan (from their perspective).
Like, think it through logically:
If Seppel is scum, he has already shown that he can bypass the jail and make the night kill. So he would have to be the lynch, today.
But if he flips town, you can still jail me afterwards. (He won't flip town).
If your reaction to that is 'but what if you are unblockable', then I simply ask you what keeps Seppel from being unblockable.
The only thing clearing Seppel /is/ the roleblock.
This is probably the last post I'm going to bother to make, because I'm getting the feeling that it's pointless. I'm town, Seppel's scum, but no one is bothering to actually re-read and look at the behavior, or use a single grain of logic.
(And yes, this post is oddly formatting, and jumps between addressing Seppel and adressing the people that actually matter, but it's 3 am and I'm ticked off, frustration, and exhausted. Articulation isn't my strong suit at the moment).
You keep talking bringing up WIFOM and "awful behavior," which is just garbage and so vague that you're not actually coming up with anything I can defend against, respectively. And the things I can talk about are things we've already talked about, and that just promotes circular discussion.
You haven't made an attempt to rebut anything I've said in defense, and when a point is brought up against you, you just ignore it and shout SEPPEL SEPPEL SEPPEL.
From Iso: "Honestly, with the way he's throwing appeal to emotion, modgaming, and other such laughable defenses at us, even if he is town, he's not doing himself or the town any favors. It's just "guys look at how town I've been, Seppel is totally scum" which is what he's accusing Seppel of doing. He's not highlighting any of the interactions that he claims there are an abundance of that could potentially damn Seppel or clear himself. It's like he thinks yelling at us and insulting us will get us to change our minds - no wonder that never worked when I tried it. It's so...uncompelling. So what exactly is his angle?
For what it's worth, he's starting to defend his posts instead of actually substantiating a case against Seppel - he did something similar in FHF at the end where he basically made a terrible case on Void and said, "I know this is a bad case, but come on, look how pro-town I've been!" (which incidentally didn't matter as he was the SK.)"
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I'll have a huge post up about Seppel's behavior this game in a day or two.
I just want to point out a piece of circular logic that is hurting my brain. Let me break it down into bulletpoints.
-Seppel's behavior has been worse than mine in a vacuum.
-Seppel is being 'cleared' because he was roleblocked last night.
-You don't want to lynch him, and block me, because I could be unblockable.
Do you seriously not see a huge problem with that logic?
If you acknowledge the possibility of unblockability, you have to also acknowledge that Seppel can't be cleared because he was blocked.
Logic just doesn't work that way, and it's beyond frustrating.
If you want to do a form of modgaming, and assume that the fact that the day title says 'Endgame' then that means that the jail tonight has no chance of stopping the night kill, if we lynch town.
So if that's the case, why are you clearing Seppel because he was jailed?
It makes no sense, and it's just stupid and frustrating, like I'm talking at a brick wall.
If you refuse to lynch Seppel and jail me, then you cannot clear Seppel based on the jail.
It's why I'm asking you to look at the behavior alone, instead of relying on Occam's Razor when it isn't taking the circumstances or overall game balance into account.
Drop the ego, drop the stubborness, and actually think, and evaluate rationally.
Explain why you will not lynch Seppel and lynch me.
After that, explain how that logic can possibly be reconciled with clearing Seppel because he was jailed.
Once you do that and realize it can't clear him, go back and look at Seppel's actions - the replace in post, trying to clear Stardust based on Meta, writing Caex off as the Cop, leading that lynch on Cyouni, targeting and wasting the town vig's shot, pushing hard for a mass claim that would have outed the jailer, trying to lynch WoLG for being neutral, after Scum!Caex had tried to paint WoLG for being neutral, the desperation deflection at DYH at the end of yesterday, the kill targets.
Everything points at Seppel being scum except the jail - and using a bit of logic and critical thinking means that the jail can't clear him.
Voxx: Citing Che's play as an example of how you're town is a bad call. Che was ridiculously scummy, and his scummy play is why you were brought into claim range to begin with. The only reason that you weren't lynched that day is because you came into the game looking like you were scum hunting, which was a lot more than Che had done up to that point.
If you're trying to say that Che's attacks on Caex make you look town, you're wrong there too. His refusal to actually make any kind of case or do anything than repeatedly state that Caex should die is one of the reasons that I, and others, wanted to lynch him. He could have easily been bussing his scum buddy.
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I've been working for 15-16 hours straight, and not thinking all that clearly, but I'm just blinking at the screen and trying to figure out where that post came from.
I re-read my last few posts, and I don't think I even mentioned Che.
Going to sleep, and have to be up again in 4-5 hours - I have Tuesday off of work, though, so I'm guaranteed to get posts up then if I don't have any time free tomorrow.
But at least read my last few posts, and try to evaluate the mindset I have to be coming from.
Put yourself in my position as a vanilla town with a jail on Seppel, and evaluate if my posts read genuine.
The simplest scenario when the day started was that WoLG had to be scum, but once I was certain you weren't faking the mason chat, the only explanation was that it had to be Seppel. I don't understand how you can see anything other than frustrated town from my posts, where Seppel is just pure dismissive scum.
His last post in particular is terrible: 'there's nothing I can defend myself against' is a scum mindset, where he is scum, he knows he's scum, but he can't prove that he isn't scum because.... he is scum.
I have no idea if that's going to make any sense to anyone else, or to me, even, once I get some sleep, heh.
@Voxx: You mentioned it in 1176 that we should look back at Che's play and your interactions to determine your alignment. I've been re-reading your posts since this day started, and your recent posts don't sound like "frustrated town." They read like you know that you've been PoE'd and you've been backed into a corner. You're calling upon Zinda and me to stretch our imaginations to "clear" you. Most of it has been conjecture about "ninja kills" and "semi-unblockability" and all kinds of other modgaming you're asking us to do to see you as town. That, and a lot of "Woe is me, the town is going to loose because you guys are going to lynch me and the mod gave Seppel a crazy role."
You keep saying that it's "basic logic" from your point of view that Seppel has to be scum, as if that's not something that you would have to say as either alignment. WHen all four of the living players say 2 of them are for sure town, you absolutely HAVE to attack the remaining one, regardless of your alignment if you want to win.
Your posts read forced, you're grasping at straws trying to find any piece of wording that will "prove" to us that Seppel somehow perpetrated the kill while jailed, when the simplest answer is that you're scum and committed the kill. Constantly shouting "I'm Town, Seppel is scum" isn't going to convince anyone, especially when you're constantly having this defeatist attitude towards this entire game. It's like you already knew you lost when Zinda confirmed Seppel was jailed last night, and you're going through the motions to look exasperated with this game.
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The simplest scenario when the day started was that WoLG had to be scum, but once I was certain you weren't faking the mason chat, the only explanation was that it had to be Seppel. I don't understand how you can see anything other than frustrated town from my posts, where Seppel is just pure dismissive scum.
Because it's obviously not frustrated scum / dismissive town?
His last post in particular is terrible: 'there's nothing I can defend myself against' is a scum mindset, where he is scum, he knows he's scum, but he can't prove that he isn't scum because.... he is scum.
I've already proven to the best of my ability that I'm not scum. There's nothing left to defend against because you're just re-wording your previous attacks and hoping they'll stick this time.
Here's why Voxx is scum:
* Che plays poorly, buses Caex (to the point of coaching), sets up lynches, then as soon as DRey becomes an option, he 180s to DRey in #308 (and slips in #309, calling DRey town, then tries to save face in #310), then disappears after people put DRey off the table.
* Che interacts with Stardust only once, and it goes nowhere.
What I'm having trouble understanding is that Voxx knew I was going to jail Seppel last night - I told him as much. So he knew that if he killed, it would become very difficult to convince me or anyone that Seppel was scum. The optimal play there, if he was dead-set on using a kill last night, would be to kill DYH, then "confirm" Seppel and try to pin all the blame on WoLG. But meanwhile Voxx has barely said a word about WoLG and continues to attack the more difficult target.
Also, why not kill me last night if he was scum? He knew I was the jailer, but nobody else did. Oh, that's right, because he had already claimed my role. Why would he do that as scum? He volunteered to take on that gambit. All he had to do was go, "Oh, yes, you're town jailer, yes, jailing Seppel? Oh, excellent plan, of course" and then kill me.
Possible explanation for his behavior? I'd especially like to hear from WoLG as I'm getting something of a paranoid feeling about him.
Trying to come up with reasons behind nightkill choices is a shaky area, but let's try to get into the mind of a scum. I found this near the end of D3:
Recently we've agreed that Wessel is probably telling the truth, but that there exists the possibility that he's scum and WoLG is neutral. If Wessel doesn't remove himself from the game tonight, he'll be dealt with tomorrow.
It looks like Voxx believed Wessel's role completely and that he was planning on there being 5 players left alive today, meaning he had to get two mislynches off. The early day push on WoLG makes me think that WoLG was supposed to be the first mislynch. Without knowing what abilities they have, it's impossible to know what their plan was, or even if they had a plan beyond spray and pray.
I was getting jailed last night regardless of whether Zindabad was alive or dead in the morning. Voxxicus announced it at the end of D3, meaning I'd still be clear. With WoLG acting protown nearly the entire game, and DYH being the Gov, I'm fairly certain a Zindabad kill would result in Voxxicus's immediate loss of the game. But with DYH out of the way, I see how he was trying to argue WoLG and I to be scum.
What I'm having trouble understanding is that Voxx knew I was going to jail Seppel last night - I told him as much. So he knew that if he killed, it would become very difficult to convince me or anyone that Seppel was scum. The optimal play there, if he was dead-set on using a kill last night, would be to kill DYH, then "confirm" Seppel and try to pin all the blame on WoLG. But meanwhile Voxx has barely said a word about WoLG and continues to attack the more difficult target.
Voxx started off today trying to do exactly that: His first three posts today were him saying that I'm scum and faking the mason claim. I shut that down pretty quickly by offering proof to both you and Seppel. He realized that there's no way he could push a "Scum with out of game mason" lynch, especially after both you and Seppel were already pretty convinced I was town. (At least after Wessel flipped Gollum, anyway. You two were doubters for a day or so there.)
Also, why not kill me last night if he was scum? He knew I was the jailer, but nobody else did. Oh, that's right, because he had already claimed my role. Why would he do that as scum? He volunteered to take on that gambit. All he had to do was go, "Oh, yes, you're town jailer, yes, jailing Seppel? Oh, excellent plan, of course" and then kill me.
Possible explanation for his behavior? I'd especially like to hear from WoLG as I'm getting something of a paranoid feeling about him.
I'm assuming he didn't kill you for two reasons.
1.) He already had you 100% convinced that he was behaviorally town, even with his shady vanilla claim and Che's awful behavior.
2.) Going into an endgame situation like this, there's no way he could have left DYH (a claimed governor) alive.
As for why he volunteered to take on that gambit, I posit two reasons:
1.) He's an experienced player and taking on that gambit while leaving you alive would give him an ally in the end game.
2.) He's cocky.
Yeah, WoLG is town. He impressed me with his early-game play. Plus I have no idea what sort of bad guy would flavorfully be a hydra. Also I just realized that WoLG is, mechanically, a vanilla townie, superseding Voxx's claim. Behavior, flavor, and mechanics are on WoLG's side.
From Iso: "@zindabad: You can have your paranoia - Voxx had made it clear that his anti-town modus operandi is to make endgame difficult for himself and out-WIFOM the remaining players. Just go see Vocx's explanation for his sub-par kill choices post-game in FHF."
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Having some medical issues, probably out of commission for a day or three. Heavily medicated and can barely see straight.
Sorry.
Would obviously prefer you not hammer, but if you do, don't let the paranoia about WoLG get to you - Seppel is scum, and you need to jail him for us to have any chance to win.
@Zinda: What makes you think that Voxx is town? All you've said so far is that you believe he is. Can you elaborate and explain to me why you think he's town?
How do you feel about my response to your questions?
How do you feel about how much Voxx is mod gaming and appeals to emotion?
Can you at least say something besides "It's a tough decision and we have time."
Seppel, Voxx, Iso, and I have all pretty much exhausted every line of inquiry and questions that we can without your participation in this game. There's nothing else I can think of that we can say, and it's not fair to Asian, any spectators, or the dead players of the game to sit around and wait for days without you posting something that will move the game along.
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Should have a large post up late tonight or in morning. Feeling a little better, but taking one more heavy dose and sleeping it off to complete things.
Seppel's still scum, and his recent posts are just an attempt to get Zindabad to act rashly, which will lose the game.
Just lost the post I've spent ~4 hours working on =/
I'd been hitting ctrl + c obsessively, but when I hit submit, I'd been logged out. I logged back in, post was gone. No big deal. Pasted what I had copied and... it was just the last quote. =/
I know pretty much what I'd said and what I quoted though, should have it back up in an hour or two. Just this site is terrible about logging you out randomly.
@Voxx: You mentioned it in 1176 that we should look back at Che's play and your interactions to determine your alignment. I've been re-reading your posts since this day started, and your recent posts don't sound like "frustrated town." They read like you know that you've been PoE'd and you've been backed into a corner. You're calling upon Zinda and me to stretch our imaginations to "clear" you. Most of it has been conjecture about "ninja kills" and "semi-unblockability" and all kinds of other modgaming you're asking us to do to see you as town. That, and a lot of "Woe is me, the town is going to loose because you guys are going to lynch me and the mod gave Seppel a crazy role."
You keep saying that it's "basic logic" from your point of view that Seppel has to be scum, as if that's not something that you would have to say as either alignment. WHen all four of the living players say 2 of them are for sure town, you absolutely HAVE to attack the remaining one, regardless of your alignment if you want to win.
Your posts read forced, you're grasping at straws trying to find any piece of wording that will "prove" to us that Seppel somehow perpetrated the kill while jailed, when the simplest answer is that you're scum and committed the kill. Constantly shouting "I'm Town, Seppel is scum" isn't going to convince anyone, especially when you're constantly having this defeatist attitude towards this entire game. It's like you already knew you lost when Zinda confirmed Seppel was jailed last night, and you're going through the motions to look exasperated with this game.
There's some truth in this post by WoLG. I do feel like people that are town (you, Zindabad) are using PoE, and have focused on me as the only logical remaining option. I'm frustrated because I'm town, and I know that it means that Seppel has to be the remaining scum.
But I can't easily explain how he can be scum, and still have made the kill - so the only option is to do what I have been doing - make intelligent guesses based on claims and game design, and encourage you two to not fixate on one world.
Unless I've been wasting all of my energy on Seppel and it's actually WoLG, then he's scum. I don't think WoLG is scum, though. The role is proven, and doesn't logically make sense as scum. The only way it'd work is if Iso himself is somehow scum attached to Town!WoLG, but that's just not realistically feasible. Caex trying to push WoLG as a neutral, WoLG's push on Stardust, I'm pretty confident in WoLG being town.
Quite literally the only thing that could give me the slightest bit of hesitation there is DYH being shot over him, but that's so minor that it's not worth consideration. Plus, WiFOM.
The only thing that's really wrong about the post I quoted up there is that anything I've done or said is 'forced'. I'm town, and I'm genuinely frustrated at the fact that we're going to lose, because Seppel has some form of kill piercing or is flat up unblockable.
You're just looking at it from one side, and trying to fit my actions into a scum mindset, when they fit all the same into that of town that is resigned to losing.
WoLG completely ignored the posts I had when I thought I was hammered and the game was over. You can try to say that I'm unsportsmanlike enough to fake that if you wish, but that's not the case. I genuinely believed I'd been hammered, and Zindabad had lost us the game with the hammer. I couldn't fathom that Seppel hadn't cast a vote on me by that point, given that from his 'town' perspective, I was the remaining scum.
And everyone has ignored this bit of reasoning:
If you refuse to lynch Seppel, and then jail me, why are you clearing Seppel because he was jailed?
If you choose to believe that the title text saying [End Game] means that the jail cannot stop the final kill, why are you refusing to consider Seppel as scum, because in order for him to be scum, he would have to be able to bypass the jail?
The refusal to think logically regarding that is why I'm so frustrated.
@WoLG - outline to me precisely why YOU are not willing to lynch Seppel and jail me.
Once you've done that, explain how that same logic enables you to clear Seppel based on the jail from last night.
You've correctly identified my mindset, that I'm frustrated and defeated, but you're incorrectly assigning that as a scum mindset instead of town. It's probably mostly Iso's doing, because of his general refusal to accept that he could be wrong, but please clear your misconceptions and think things through.
Going to go back through and quote some things from Seppel, to remind people of how terrible his behavior has been this game. Quite literally the only thing in his favor is that he was jailed last night, and I've outlined the faulty logic being used in clearing him due to that jail above.
The game starts, and a wagon is borne on Zionite mostly out of RVS.
Zionite points out that Cropcircles had hopped on him for 'breaking RVS', here:
Quote from Zionite »
CropCircles' vote masquerades as a random vote despite RVS being over, and even acknowledges this fact. No reasons given, and the 3rd vote on a single target in a mini. Even if it were RVS, that's an indication of scum opportunism with no interest in scum hunting.
WoLG even acknowledged that, and voted for CC shortly after:
Quote from WoLG »
I agree with your assessment of CC's vote, and his lack of posting and willingness to contribute worries me. I'd like to see some more substance from him.Vote: CropCircles
Plus, check out the wagon as a whole:
Zionite (5): Che Guevera, Wessel, CropCircles, DRey, Xyre
Zionite is town, I'm town, Wessel was...not-mafia, Drey is town, Xyre is town.
It's mafia inflating a wagon after town (for vote analysis purposes, neutrals are town) start it, and enticing other town to join.
Quote from Zionite »
Thanks for the breakdown.
I'm analyzing the first wagon of the game since it's the only thing going on. I know I'm town, so I have a unique perspective no one else has at this point. I'm also confident I will not be today's lynch.
Che's vote on me was random, and he later cited reasons for leaving it there. This effort is a town tell.
Wessel's vote was not random and did not have reasons attached. When called out, reasons were given. Town tell.
CropCircles' vote masquerades as a random vote despite RVS being over, and even acknowledges this fact. No reasons given, and the 3rd vote on a single target in a mini. Even if it were RVS, that's an indication of scum opportunism with no interest in scum hunting.
DRey's vote does not cite reasons and ignores the call out for it. I suspect it was a knee-jerk reaction to his first post catching interest. His first post is a town tell for ending RVS, and his vote is a town tell for following through on his own setup. He's clearly scum hunting.
Here's Zionite reaching the same conclusion that I've outlined. I somehow managed to scroll back, WoLG's vote came after this.
In post #93, Stardust asks for a prod on CC - and Drey points this out shortly after:
Quote from Drey »
@Star Why you so concerned about CC when Zinda is also MIA for as long as him?
I think that's fairly telling. I can't imagine why CC's absence would be on his mind, and Zinda's...not. Maybe because one is his scumbuddy, imagine that.
Stardust's response was:
Quote from Stardust »
Zinda...bad! Yeah, he's in this game apparently. I want CC to join in because he's involved with Zionite. I feel like Zionite is probably town, but I'm not really too sure. Getting a feel for the person Zionite is gunning for would go a long way.
zindabad should post too, but I hadn't looked back at the player list to search for people to prod. And as I preview post here, it looks like he already did.
This is borderline panicking and flailing, trying to explain why his scumbuddies absence was on his mind, but he glossed over a town person not posting in the same townframe.
CC finally posts with:
Quote from CC »
Apologies for the absence, it's been a long couple of days. I almost got caught up, until I got to...that. That right up there. Holy tl;dr man, I just worked a 14 hour shift, and it's time for bed. I'll finish reading and make a real post in the morning.
Also Unvote zionite, FTR it was a joke. It's been years since I've played and I wasn't about to miss RVS.
Writes off the Zionite vote as a joke, which... it's possible it was at least partially joking. But it still doesn't change the fact that he made the vote, after two others, and is the only possible scum inflating the wagon in the middle/back end.
The Xyre/Zionite back and forth feels like a dead end. I think Xyre is relying far too heavily on meta and establishing connections before we even have a scum corpse to go off of. Far too flimsy for the conviction behind this wagon, imo, or for the call for a claim. Not reading scum vibes from his approach, but I doubt this will bear fruit, and the extent of the back and forth just makes it hard to follow.
I like Drey and kpaca for town. Active scum hunting, pushing for reactions, etc. Same general vibe from Che, but to a lesser extent for sure.
Also, Stardust: how many games have you played before?
Quote from Caex Kothar »
You've got my attention with your case on Zionite, though. I'd be willing to vote Zionite or Stardust, along with Xyre obviously.
So far, this stuck out to me the most. On top of his own personal target (Xyre), he lists the current wagon as well as Stardust, who is reading newb to me more than anything else, without even giving a reason for the suspicion for the last one. This looks like he's testing the waters more than hunting scum.
Vote Caex Kothar on that note.
Asks Stardust how many games he's played, to establish the newb handwave.
The vote on Caex initially looked pretty decent to me, which is why I put Wessel and Stardust as more likely scum than Seppel. But knowing that Wessel was town and Stardust scum, this reads as CC creating a dichotomy of sorts - where if Caex is scum, he's attacking Stardust, who is surely town, then.
He was lurking, and needed to do something to get that stigma off him, so the best thing was to bus/distance, and attempt to clear his third teammate in the process. Good play, generally speaking.
Also, Stardust answers the question about his experience in #160, but CC never follows up on that, or even acknowledges it. Minor, but worth mentioning.
Game trudges along, and Caex makes his claim, blah, blah.
CC pops in with:
Quote from CC »
Unvote Caex for the moment, because I want to make sure I have time to go back and reread his posts before a lynch happens, but i would like to hear that passive ability. At work now, substainial post to follow.
He needs to re-read the posts of someone that he was voting? Eh. If you're voting for someone, you aren't exactly indecisive about what you think, regarding them. Dislike.
Quote from Caex »
My passive is called Bull-Headed. I can't be roleblocked, but I also can't be protected. I'll get around to answering all the stuff aimed at me later.
I still have trouble seeing Caex come up with this on his own. It's why I think it's at least possible that Seppel has this as a passive with his role.
Quote from Stardust »
Also, after thinking about it for a bit, CropCircles' logic in 272 looks spot on for dealing with Caex. If he's town, the scum need to kill him. If he doesn't die after a day or two, we lynch him. At least then we've got the chance to get some cop targets, and like Caex himself suggested, he'll be more likely to incriminate his scum buddies anyway. Win win!
Stardust piggybacking his scumbuddy's reasoning. Again, not exactly conclusive, but worth posting.
But then even after that logic that Stardust mentions, CC comes in with:
Quote from CC »
Reading Drey's most recent response along with zindabad's analysis is making me reconsider things. Drey isn't my fav, but that looks like pretty genuine analysis of Caex.
I hate the idea of lynching a claimed cop without trying to get some use out of him, but at this point, I think knowing his alignment will be the more useful info to have now, rather than waiting for potential investigations that we won't even be able to trust until he flips.
Ultimately, he is the scummier of the two. I'd rather just get it done then have it possibly still hanging over our head in the morning.
Unvote, Vote Caex
It's like he knows Caex will flip scum eventually, and he's a goon, so there's no real value in leaving him alive vs. getting the town credit for attacking him, here. Can't imagine how he could know these things, though. :eyeroll:
Quote from CC »
I think we need to direct Drey's kill. If he is scum with an extra shot, he'll just use it to kill a townie, and then come back tomorrow saying that he thought they were scum. If the town agrees on a target for him, it will insure that his shot is directed by the town.
Or it ensures that scum can help steer it to town, rather than him randomly sniping scum!
Quote from Stardust »
CC is town. I've liked his questions and I think he's working in the right direction.
Uh. What questions? CC had been gone 95% of the game at this point, and only asked about 2 questions total, one of which was asking Stardust how many games he had played. How is asking that heading in the 'right direction'? Making up BS reasons to mark his buddy as town. But I acknowledge that he could have just been making up BS reasons to call town, town - as he did Che in that same batch. Whatever. Still worth pointing out.
Quote from Stardust »
Huh, CropCircles votes Caex after the claim. Decent reasons for doing so (more information for Day 2), though I can't agree that Caex's case is open and shut enough to turn down the chance of a confirmed townie for tomorrow.
This is a telling quote. Look at him setting up CC to be town after Caex flips scum. CC is scum.
In post #430, Stardust 'cases' CC, and flat out says that he...
Quote from Stardust »
So CC felt pretty good until those last few posts. He's been involved and making decent posts, but not really asking questions and really hunting as much as he could be. Could be scum, but I'll wait to hear his replies to my questions and maybe a response to my findings here.
Isn't really asking questions.
After he'd just said he was asking good ones.
Slots him into third place on his 'to lynch' list, but leaves CC an out by saying he 'could' be scum, pending his responses. Just textbook clumsy distancing.
#441 from Stardust:
Quote from Stardust »
"Note for later". I don't trust DRey, but I'm willing to give him the chance at a shot. If he later flips scum (for example, if the real vig kills him), that post will look pretty bad on CC. I didn't want to forget that.
Tying CC to scum!Drey. Except, well. Drey wasn't scum.
But he drops CC out of his top 3 here, regardless, in favor of Cyouni.
Annnnd I'm up to where Seppel and I replace in.
CC really didn't do much, but Stardust's interactions with him make him scum, and CC set up a dichotomy between Caex and Stardust, where if Caex was scum, it made Stardust town.
Quote from Seppel »
Quick 5 minute glance gives me a townread on DRey, which should be great for breaking this game open. More after I've read.
I really dislike 'breaking this game open'. It feels so forced, like he's shouting LOOK HOW TOWN I AM DOING TOWN THINGS AND FIGURING OUT THE SCUM BECAUSE I'M TOWN. I acknowledge that town have said it before, but then he does it again:
Quote from Seppel »
Let's break this game open. This was going to be a review by player starting with Stardust but Xyre just went and derailed my sled into a straight up PBPA:
So forced. He's trying to alter the mindset of the person reading it, painting himself as town trying to solve the game.
#456 is his big catch up post, and I encourage you two go re-read it.
Points from it:
-Gives a thumbs up to Caex attacking Xyre
-Asks Caex why he's suspicious of Stardust
-Posts this at Caex, doing the first of multiple 'clears' on Stardust
Quote from Seppel »
What games have you seen scumStardust? I have yet to play with a scumStardust. How does it differ from a townStardust?
Not buying it.
Then again right after, he confirms Stardusts' self-meta, calling him town due to him...being scummy in another game as town? I mean, what.
Quote from Seppel »
Fellow Giant Robot player checking in. I support the fact that Stardust slipped left and right. It made it so hard to believe he was town.
Stardust is likely town, Caex is likely scum.
Quote from Seppel »
CC sees the same thing I do about Caex.
How convenient.
Has this to say about Stardust:
Quote from Seppel »
Stardust is being a good bee.
Because of...
Quote from Stardust »
Reading through again, I'm convinced that Caex is scum and Zionite is bussing him. DRey as the third makes this all work quite nicely! Interactions are there, but obviously we'll need a flip to prove it out.
*throws it in the oven*
and then this:
Quote from Seppel »
...
Oh what the **** caex
the ****
are you for real
and you can't be protected what the hell
welp
Fake, forced, a farce, you name it. This is not a genuine reaction at all.
Quote from Zionite »
One town tell does not erase dozens of scum tells.
Him quoting this kind of cracks me up, because it's exactly what I've been trying to say about Seppel himself - one thing that points towards him town (the jail) doesn't override the multiple scummy things he's done this game, especially when the other circumstances mean you can't clear him for it (his claimed role, the action of redirecting the vig, the 'endgame' when there's a jailer alive, etc).
Here's the T/S list from Seppel at start of his next post:
Quote from Seppel »
Seppel (r. CropCircles) - Still has one transformation left
Caex Kothar - Turned out to be one of the worst cops ever
Zionite - Posting with intent. I haven't seen anything that mirrors Cyberspace play.
DRey - Seems to be playing his towngame.
DYH (r. kpaca) - Kpaca was acting town and hasn't been replaced yet.
Stardust - Actively scumhunting. Don't like the continued push on Caex, though.
WellOfLostGnomes - I remember liking what he had to say, but can't remember any of it.
Wessel - Needs to say something that can give me a strong read on him.
Cyouni (r. Deaths_Vampire) - Said nothing notable.
Voxxicus (r. Che Guevera) - Hasn't been participating.
zindabad - No content.
Xyre - Hypocritical statement against Kpaca. Ending his "pro/joke" post with a question mark. A confusingly aggressive attempt to call DRey scum with Kpaca. An accusation of Zionite coaching out in the open. Something that seems like an appeal to DRey to vote Caex.
The only negative he points out regarding Stardust is that he's pushing Caex. Convienent, given, y'know. Caex will flip scum, making Stardust look better.
Quote from Seppel »
Oh neat, a PBPA of Stardust. Zionite says, "It's practically impossible that I'm bussing Caex." Why "practically?" Eh, I'm just going to reread Stardust myself.
Going to re-read Stardust despite constantly defending him based on meta, which implies that he's read his posts in the first place. Zzzzz.
Quote from Seppel »
Reading each of Stardust's posts individually makes him look like he's coming out of nowhere, but if you read them in order, you see how his stream of consciousness flows. He's kind of like Void. Each time I think he's saying something out of nowhere, it makes sense from his mindset.
More clearing of Stardust.
Quote from Seppel »
First thought is self-deprecation. Town.
In regards to Stardust asking Wessel if his 'Stardust seems to have an eye on everything' was sarcastic.
It's like he's trying to beat. It. Into. Our. Heads. That. Stardust. Is. Town. By repeatedly mentioning it, with the flimsiest reasoning on the planet.
Quote from Seppel »
Oh neat, a PBPA of Stardust. Zionite says, "It's practically impossible that I'm bussing Caex." Why "practically?" Eh, I'm just going to reread Stardust myself.
Bolded. Where's the town mindset behind going 'oh neat, a pbpa of someone I've been repeatedly saying is town'? There's not one.
Quote from Seppel »
Seppel (r. CropCircles) - Still has one transformation left
Caex Kothar - Turned out to be one of the worst cops ever
DYH/Kpaca - Kpaca was acting town and DYH is good.
Zionite - Posting with intent. I haven't seen anything that mirrors Cyberspace play.
DRey - Seems to be playing his towngame.
Stardust - Actively scumhunting. Don't like the continued push on Caex, though.
WellOfLostGnomes - I remember liking what he had to say, but can't remember any of it.
Wessel - Need answers.
Cyouni (r. Deaths_Vampire) - Need content.
zindabad - One post of content. Voxx favoritism.
Xyre - Hypocritical statement against Kpaca. Ending his "pro/joke" post with a question mark. A confusingly aggressive attempt to call DRey scum with Kpaca. An accusation of Zionite coaching out in the open. Something that seems like an appeal to DRey to vote Caex.
Voxxicus (r. Che Guevera) - As Che, bad participation, mindset is off, and he called Caex the cop. Voxx's entrance was mud.
Still the same blurb on Stardust, despite apparently reading a PBPA of him, and re-reading all his posts to be able to call him town on meta, and mention how stream of consciousness and therefore town he is.
Conveniently, that's a subtle way to call himself town, given his 'catch up' posting style. Imagine that.
Accuses me of being scum because...Che called Caex the cop?
When his own blurb on Caex is that he's the cop.
Heh.
Quote from Seppel »
I've made like three posts. What reasons did you have for me being one of your top suspects? And why add the "now" qualifier to the end?
Where's the motivation to claim vanilla, as scum? Especially after Caex claimed cop and made himself a dead man walking. By claiming vanilla, I resigned myself to being the lynch D1, and Caex would have clearly been the D2 lynch. Can you seriously see me leaving the entire game up to Stardust alone? I claimed vanilla because I AM vanilla, and kept slogging through the game because I wanted to help town before I bit the dust. It was just hard to sustain motivation, given that it felt like I was reading all the massive walls of text only to die, heh.
---
#519-526 is my catch up stuff. Re-read it if you wish.
I'm kind of cringing at how wrong I was, but I maintain it made sense from a 'alright, so we have two PR claims in Drey and Caex, who is scum if they are town?' perspective I had at the time.
I guess this is interesting, though. Look at the Drey wagon. If I was scum, all three of us would have had to have piled onto a lynch consecutively. On day one. I highly encourage anyone to go and look at other minis/basics, and try to find an occurance of three scum voting in a row on a 4-5 man lynch wagon on D1. It just doesn't happen.
But I recognize that it's a type of analysis that most people handwave, so whatever, moving on.
Quote from Seppel »
Xyre it is, then.
Unvote, vote Xyre
Hops on the wagon.
---
Posts #541-553 by me are something that people should go back and re-read. It's my back and forth with Xyre, trying to figure out why he was acting the way he did as a town watcher.
I still have trouble believing he was town, because his actions make no sense.
Also, Caex buddying to me hardcore is kind of funny in retrospect, when it was to help generate a mislynch on Xyre.
Quote from Seppel »
Voxx is sounding better. Vanilla claim is meh (wasn't this labeled as a high-power game?), but I'm much more interested in Cyouni and Zindabad now.
Convenient that I'm sounding better after 3-4 people in a row say that they like my line of questioning on Xyre. :eyeroll:
Stardust is worth looking into - I really don't like the 'I'll respond to your case tomorrow' back and forth with Zionite. It reads like he knows he'll be alive tomorrow.
Oh man, if I was killed tonight I would be super proud. There is no way I'm the right choice for a nightkill with claimed PR's and lots of vets in this game. So, yes, I'm assuming I'll be alive Day 2.
Just kind of pointing at this in hindsight how quickly Stardust should have been lynched because of the bulletproof claim, heh. He couldn't have been shot N1, so his response here shows that he wasn't posting with the mindset of a town with a bulletproof.
I think it also shows that I didn't know he had a bulletproof, and therefore wasn't scum with him, but WiFOM, blah, blah.
I had another big post at #573. Don't think there's anything interesting in there, but you can try to get my mindset behind it I guess?
Oh, hm.
Here's an interesting bit from Xyre that I think is worth reading:
I mean, I get that the people bulldogging into me are just going to say it's bussing, but pull heads out of rectums, acknowledge that bad play does not equal scum, and let's actually lynch someone who has a chance to be scum.
Since that's not me.
"Are going to say" = future, meaning "After Xyre is lynched (and flips scum), people will say I bussed my scumbuddy." He genuinely believes I'll flip scum and that he'll pay for such a play; I don't see a scum thinking of a player he'd know to be a townie like this. (And while I know we can't be scumbuddies, also note that this would be a really stupid thing for someone to openly acknowledge about their bussing.)
He's town, people.
That's actually pretty astute on Xyre's part, and I somehow missed that first couple times through.
He's right - my mindset was that Xyre was scum, and that I was going to be lynched/attacked afterwards, for bussing him. That's not remotely a scum mindset when I'd know that Xyre would flip town. Reconcile that with lynching me, please.
Quote from Seppel »
I'm only moving from Xyre if we lynch Zindabad. DYH nailed it perfectly.
'I'm only moving from this mislynch if we go to that mislynch and get another claim. And here, let me pin any accountability on that to DYH'
Scum.
Post #631 is Seppel attacking Zindabad for referincing previous scum games? Weak.
#638 should mesh with my town meta, I guess, if you care about such things - that's how I am generally on D1's - I need some confirmed flips to figure out other alignments, and PoE the game down.
Conveniently, that happened, when Caex, Wessel, Stardust and Seppel were my four scum reads on D2. And oh, look, those are the four scum. :eyeroll:
Seppel's #640-643 are more weak meta attacks on Zinda.
Quote from Seppel »
I say play it as if AsianInvasion counts the intent of my unvote, until otherwise notified.
Unvote, vote Cyouni
And then a no-reasoning hop on Cyouni.
Quote from Voxxicus »
Like, if Xyre flips town, I'm not opposed to you vigging Caex - but not tonight. If we leave him alive, we either get a check, or force the mafia to shoot him to prevent a check.
If he's scum, we'll find out n2 or n3 when you do vig him.
This is all moot if Xyre flips scum of course, but it doesn't seem that he will from his recent posts.
Caex should check one of DYH or Seppel, if Xyre flips town. Cyouni/Zindabad are reasonable checks too, but if he's only going to get one check (if town) I'd rather it be on someone that isn't likely to be lynched, but is twigging me the wrong way.
This is an awkward thing to propose if Caex is scum, and a goon. What purpose would I have as scum to leave him alive for one more day, when he has no powers? Eh. Just another mindset thing to consider.
Quote from Seppel »
After that, Stardust comes in and lets the cat out of the bag (reads to be unintentional), making any further posts tainted.
My read on DRey may be off. His eagerness to call for a flip on either of the two investigative roles is getting excessive. But then I remember Zindabad calling for DRey's death and that fully cements DRey as town.
I'm going to put off the whole DRey/Xyre/Caex thing until tomorrow. Let the mafia deal with that overnight.
WoLG is still a solid town read. I'm liking Stardust more and more. DYH and Zionite are still good leaning-town reads. Voxx is ok so far.
I'm content with Cyouni or Zindabad.
Vote Cyouni
The bolded things. Clarifying that Stardust's interference wasn't intentional, and saying he likes him 'more and more' despite already having spent half the game repeatedly saying how town Stardust was.
The only way I can see it as is trying to hammer that read into everyone's subconscious by repeating it over and over.
Quote from Voxx »
Unless they're both town and Caex ends up being scum. Which would be kind of hilarious, but I don't really think that's the case.
Heh. Oops.
It is kind of funny in retrospect I guess, but yeah.
Question for the town: If you remove Caex's claim from the equation, how would you describe his behavior?
Terrible, illogical, but also brazen. The ease of which he's abandoned wagons and just not thought things through doesn't remind me of the Ataghan scumCakes who, when pushed for answers, either fought stronger for what he "believed" in or ignored the questions.
Throw in the claim, and he is what he says he is.
Force the scum to have to kill him.
Not conclusive by itself, but just another notch in the scumpost.
Quote from WoLG »
Cyouni: You should track me. It'll will prove that I don't do any night actions, and let me and Iso each have our own votes!
Meh. I'd forgotten about WoLG's fixation with an extra vote. That's probably only thing that would have me paranoid about him being scum - extra vote for a town mason is whatever, not amazingly useful. Extra vote for scum would be amazingly powerful.
Still think he's 99% town and Seppel scum, though.
Look at this. 6-man wagon run up on Cyouni, and the final 5 people on it have all flipped town.
If nothing else, this should basically confirm Seppel as scum, especially when Caex was still an alternative lynch.
Caex quickhammered it from there, of course, but I challenge you to /ever/ find a day one lynch in a mini or basic on town, where the first six people were all town.
Ever.
I'll wait.
Seppel is scum, and the votal analysis there backs it /hard/.
Quote from Drey »
Things I discovered in my rereads.
a)Well is town beyond doubt. I have no doubt's he's with Iso, there's some things he said only Iso could have know. b)Stardust is very, very likely scum, if he's scum Seppel is scum with him.
c)Voxx is likely scum. d)Caex is scum, but everyone knew that already.
I wonder why Drey got shot N2? :eyeroll:
Quote from Seppel »
Vote Caex.
Out the jailer.
Trying to get Caex to out the jailer was terrible, and I guess shows that they don't have daychat? Or maybe they do, because of the Bullheaded thing. I dunno.
Quote from Caex »
Unvote
Vote: Caex Kothar
I wasn't kidding about WoLG being the neutral. Look at how Iso jumped on me for mentioning a neutral (not even the neutral in this game). He's overdefensive and wanted to cut down any neutral discussion before it got started.
This was almost certainly discussed overnight - him coming up with guns blazing and trying to paint WoLG as neutral with his cop-ness. With them knowing a watcher and tracker existed, they probably thought there /was/ no cop.
And since Stardust had the ring bearer stuff with his name, Seppel probably came up with the plan to get 'Gollum' lynched as the neutral he thought he was, and clear Caex as the cop in the process.
It was a stroke of genius, really, so props, Seppel.
Except town still did have a 1-shot cop.
Oops.
Quote from Seppel »
I wasn't expecting that.
I need to go to bed, but here's some quick points and reminders for me:
* Scum apparently have falseclaims. Potentially have false-ability-claims too.
* I want a massclaim. It should have happened yesterday.
* @Mod: Please update the first page.
* I don't like that Zionite came out as a cop CC and pushed Caex to L-1 for a quicklynch before we could do anything. I have more to say about this, but massclaim first.
* One or two other things contingent on what comes out during a massclaim.
'Look how town I am, not expecting the person I shot to get shot!' Puh-lease.
And here he starts the mass claim push, which was a terrible idea.
Quote from DYH »
Thirdly, Seppel's continued defense of me via my role (the questions about scum governor to Zindabad) - which I never explicitly stated, DRey assumed what it is - has me wary of him.
Reminder about how Seppel kept defending DYH because of his role. Only to try and deflect onto him later.
Quote from Stardust »
Because it felt overtly scummy. Like asking a scum buddy to out a PR before he dies.
Quote from Seppel »
Lining up lynches.
(in response to Stardust)
Distancing wheeeeee.
Quote from Seppel »
A quick review of Caex makes me feel a lot better about Stardust and Zionite, particularly this post:
And he quotes a bunch of terrible stuff where he tries to meta defend Stardust against Caex.
Distancing against each other only to rapidly call him town afterwards is just blatant scum.
The three scum are the three not voting, the three people being voted are the three scum.
Quote from Seppel »
Hypothesis X) WoLG is Gollum as previously expected. Caex was neutral hunting because his team is underpowered(?), his role PM doesn't even say he can perform the mafia kill. No need to worry about this until there are no more kills or the game suddenly ends.
Combine Caex's Neutral push on WoLG with this, and I mean..Seppel was pretty clearly the mastermind behind that.
Quote from Seppel »
N1: Redirected DRey to myself. (Reasoning: With Xyre/Caex/Cyouni all likely town after D1, I convinced myself that DRey was a toughguy and that I needed to stop his shot somehow. When he came in D2 asking me what happened to his shot, I knew that he knew perfectly well what happened to it, so I ignored the fishing attempt.)
No way.
I don't know how I didn't see this before, but no way.
The entire D1 Seppel kept spouting his town read on Drey, from his very first post of the game.
There's just no way Seppel is town and his thought process went from 'Cyouni is town' to 'Drey is scum', instead of 'Caex or Xyre is scum'.
This should be grounds to lynch him alone, because he's claiming to directly interfere with the town vig shot.
Plus, look at the game and setup balance as a whole.
Full watcher, full tracker, jailer. 1-shot cop, because other info roles. And he's claiming to both be bulletproof (untargetable), and have a 1-shot doc, and a 1-shot redirect?
That's a huge chunk of the game that can't be shot late in the game, due to him, and it just makes no sense on town with the other roles we have available.
Plus, don't forget that he lied about the extra vote.
So he only has 3 shots, all protective, with a town Jailer, just... no.
He lied about the votes to 'catch a Gollum', in WoLG.
The fixation on the neutral just exacerbates the fact that he's scum.
Stardust had the ring-bearer stuff in his name, so he figured that had to be in the game. So he had Caex try to pin WoLG as Gollum on D2, and when that failed, tried to push the mass claim and lead the lynch on WoLG on D3.
I mean, open your eyes and think about what an amazing coincidence it'd have to be for Caex to be pushing WoLG as a neutral completely separately from Seppel. Spoiler: It wasn't a coincidence, and it wasn't separate.
Quote from Zindabad »
I now do suspect that WoLG is a neutral, but I also think that we shouldn't be wasting time on voting him at present. The whole thing feels like a smokescreen spat out by Seppel in order to obscure the wagon on his floundering scumbuddy (Stardust.) Scum would love us to lynch WoLG now - pressure's off for a while, free night when most of our power roles are dead or have used up their one-shots - it just seems like a bad idea.
Yup.
Quote from Seppel »
Or we could lynch WoLG and not potentially lose the game now that Zionite's provided the last piece of the puzzle.
Scum fearmongering, fixation on neutral because...he's scum. Everything points to it.
Quote from Stardust »
God damnit. That's why I was waiting, Zionite. I wanted to hear WoLG's explanation. Because I'm a ring-bearer too.
Elrond Half-elven, Town Ring-bearer Unkillable. I can't be killed at night, though I won't say how many shots. I'm almost sure that DRey shot me last night.
@Zindabad - Reconcile Stardust claiming to be shot by Drey with my post(s) in our Jailer chat. Where I pointed out the inconsistency in his claim to you, but didn't bother to do so in the thread. Where's the scum mindset there? Why wouldn't have I tried to get universal town credit for it, when you were positive I was town, anyways?
Like, oh...Seppel did:
Quote from Seppel »
There are so many things wrong with Stardust's claim. It's like he hasn't even been paying attention. So beautiful.
It's worth a read, and Seppel kind of imploded right afterwards, as his carefully crafted WoLG-neutral scheme fell down around his eyes.
Quote from DYH »
Well this explains Wessel's odd behavior; I believe the claim.
Thinking on it further, someone had to mastermind the Caex cop claim (probably daychat since WoLG apparently has it with Iso), the "jailer" shenanigans, the "neutral" read on WoLG by Caex, as well as the night choices.
I can definitely see that person being Seppel or Voxx. I don't see it being Stardust. I would put the latter back on the table if there are indeed three scum.
As much as I'd like to be stubborn and see if I was right from the get-go, I'm going to give Voxx the benefit of the doubt on these two because of Che's vote for Caex, even though it could've been dismissive scum distancing and looking for major townie points.
Seppel's "trap" sprung on WoLG in hindsight and some sleep looks pretty awful - trying to get focus on a neutral party rather than finding the mafia. (And as mentioned above, spear-headed by WIFOM from the dying scum). I'm not real fond of the JOAT claim, either.
Vote: Seppel
PWE: And it continues. For kicks, what exactly do you think Wessel's WC is, Seppel?
I wonder why DYH was shot over WoLG or Zinda? Maybe because... he has full control of the lynch, and thought Seppel was scum? Shocker.
Seppel: It's like Stardust doesn't even acknowledge my existence.
Stardust: Did you even ask me any questions? If you're going to mudsling, at least have something to back it up.
Seppel: Thank you.
Vote Stardust
Quick back and forth between Seppel and Stardust that is quite possibly the worst distancing attempt I've ever seen.
They were trapped, panicking, and flailing.
Quote from Seppel »
Actually, if DYH is a scum governor, then I'm fairly certain that we've already lost. In which case, it doesn't matter who we lynch.
But if you guys can't figure it out that I'm town and Stardust is scum, then I suggest we lynch Voxx and save the dichotomy for tomorrow.
Quote from Stardust »
You know what, I had this basically typed up since 9:15, but had to leave it to go to work. Now that Seppel's jumped on Voxx instead of wanting to clear this dichotomy, I think I'll just
Vote Seppel.
Both of them trying to paint it as a dichotomy is surrreeeeely a complete coincidence, right? :eyeroll:
Quote from Seppel »
There isn't a town Jailer.
Unvote, Vote Stardust.
Take it away, DYH.
I claimed Jailer, and Seppel's instinct was to lynch Stardust, and hope DYH would hijack the lynch onto me.
I mean, I'm not the jailer, but his reasoning wasn't 'Voxx isn't the jailer' it was that 'There is no town jailer', which has been proven to be 100% false. If there's any town dichotomy, it's between Zindabad and Seppel, as both protectives, but he's convienently not mentioning that, after trying to hammer home the dichotomy between himself and Stardust.
Then this:
Quote from Voxx »
Nothing earthshattering, but Zinda's town, I'm town, and scum reside in the Wessel/Stardust/Seppel cluster.
Barring DYH (mostly Kpaca) or WoLG playing an amazing scum game, I guess.
Quote from Seppel »
DYH's game has been abysmal. The only thing you could have going for DYH is his claim, which is not at all "amazing scum play."
Trapped, panicking, flailing.
This has been a recurring thing on D3 with Seppel and Stardust.
Consider at this point, he couldn't have known that Wessel would actually kill Zionite:
That means that he thought it would be Jailer!Voxx, Cop!Zionite, Townfirmed!Zindabad, Governer!DYH, Seppel (with him shooting one of those) on the final day.
So he feels pinned and cornered, and the only option he sees as that moment is to try and deflect onto DYH.
I'm guessing that overnight he realized that if Zionite didn't die via Wessel, that he couldn't win, so he shot DYH and hoped that it'd come down to 4 remaining.
It worked out in his favor.
Quote from Zindabad »
This coming from the guy who just kept going "Have you ever seen a scum governor?" over and over again? That's rich. DYH was town when it suited you, but now that your options are rapidly diminishing, all he's got going for him is his claim. Yeah, OK.
Seppel seems to be just looking for a target at the moment. WoLG is off the menu, so he moved on to Voxxicus, but then he claimed, so DYH is the latest to come under fire. Wessel was also in there as well. I'd say he was trying to avoid having to vote for his scumbuddy for a while, but then gave up on Stardust and began trying to prepare the way for a possible mislynch tomorrow.
Is spot on.
And then we get to the final day.
Convienently, after I point out that the game is solvable by lynching Seppel, and jailing whichever of WoLG or myself Zinda finds more likely scum, Seppel points this out:
Quote from Seppel »
Notable: Today is listed as "Endgame" and Voxx keeps wanting us to get to tomorrow.
Annnnd we're back to the logic that I've been trying to exasperatedly point out all day.
If you have any reason to believe that jailing someone tonight will not stop the kill, then you cannot clear Seppel based on the jail.
I've spent like, I dunno, 8 or 9 hours today working on this stupid thing, and I'm more convinced than ever that Seppel is scum.
I do feel like people that are town (you, Zindabad) are using PoE, and have focused on me as the only logical remaining option. I'm frustrated because I'm town, and I know that it means that Seppel has to be the remaining scum.
Unless I've been wasting all of my energy on Seppel and it's actually WoLG, then he's scum. I don't think WoLG is scum, though. The role is proven, and doesn't logically make sense as scum. The only way it'd work is if Iso himself is somehow scum attached to Town!WoLG, but that's just not realistically feasible. Caex trying to push WoLG as a neutral, WoLG's push on Stardust, I'm pretty confident in WoLG being town.
If you choose to believe that the title text saying [End Game] means that the jail cannot stop the final kill, why are you refusing to consider Seppel as scum, because in order for him to be scum, he would have to be able to bypass the jail?
The more you bring this up, the more I'm convinced you have that ability.
Going to go back through and quote some things from Seppel, to remind people of how terrible his behavior has been this game. Quite literally the only thing in his favor is that he was jailed last night, and I've outlined the faulty logic being used in clearing him due to that jail above.
These are just old, re-hashed arguments that I've already quashed.
In post #93, Stardust asks for a prod on CC - and Drey points this out shortly after:
Quote from Drey »
@Star Why you so concerned about CC when Zinda is also MIA for as long as him?
I think that's fairly telling. I can't imagine why CC's absence would be on his mind, and Zinda's...not. Maybe because one is his scumbuddy, imagine that.
Stardust's response was:
Quote from Stardust »
Zinda...bad! Yeah, he's in this game apparently. I want CC to join in because he's involved with Zionite. I feel like Zionite is probably town, but I'm not really too sure. Getting a feel for the person Zionite is gunning for would go a long way.
zindabad should post too, but I hadn't looked back at the player list to search for people to prod. And as I preview post here, it looks like he already did.
This is borderline panicking and flailing, trying to explain why his scumbuddies absence was on his mind, but he glossed over a town person not posting in the same townframe.
Or he was poking a townie and got tripped up when another townie was doing the same thing. It's a fairly common thing to do. I believe I called out a hypocrisy like that later on in this very game.
Apologies for the absence, it's been a long couple of days. I almost got caught up, until I got to...that. That right up there. Holy tl;dr man, I just worked a 14 hour shift, and it's time for bed. I'll finish reading and make a real post in the morning.
Also Unvote zionite, FTR it was a joke. It's been years since I've played and I wasn't about to miss RVS.
Writes off the Zionite vote as a joke, which... it's possible it was at least partially joking. But it still doesn't change the fact that he made the vote, after two others, and is the only possible scum inflating the wagon in the middle/back end.
The Xyre/Zionite back and forth feels like a dead end. I think Xyre is relying far too heavily on meta and establishing connections before we even have a scum corpse to go off of. Far too flimsy for the conviction behind this wagon, imo, or for the call for a claim. Not reading scum vibes from his approach, but I doubt this will bear fruit, and the extent of the back and forth just makes it hard to follow.
I like Drey and kpaca for town. Active scum hunting, pushing for reactions, etc. Same general vibe from Che, but to a lesser extent for sure.
Also, Stardust: how many games have you played before?
Quote from Caex Kothar »
You've got my attention with your case on Zionite, though. I'd be willing to vote Zionite or Stardust, along with Xyre obviously.
So far, this stuck out to me the most. On top of his own personal target (Xyre), he lists the current wagon as well as Stardust, who is reading newb to me more than anything else, without even giving a reason for the suspicion for the last one. This looks like he's testing the waters more than hunting scum.
Vote Caex Kothar on that note.
Asks Stardust how many games he's played, to establish the newb handwave.
The vote on Caex initially looked pretty decent to me, which is why I put Wessel and Stardust as more likely scum than Seppel. But knowing that Wessel was town and Stardust scum, this reads as CC creating a dichotomy of sorts - where if Caex is scum, he's attacking Stardust, who is surely town, then.
Game trudges along, and Caex makes his claim, blah, blah.
CC pops in with:
Quote from CC »
Unvote Caex for the moment, because I want to make sure I have time to go back and reread his posts before a lynch happens, but i would like to hear that passive ability. At work now, substainial post to follow.
He needs to re-read the posts of someone that he was voting? Eh. If you're voting for someone, you aren't exactly indecisive about what you think, regarding them. Dislike.
My passive is called Bull-Headed. I can't be roleblocked, but I also can't be protected. I'll get around to answering all the stuff aimed at me later.
I still have trouble seeing Caex come up with this on his own. It's why I think it's at least possible that Seppel has this as a passive with his role.
Also, after thinking about it for a bit, CropCircles' logic in 272 looks spot on for dealing with Caex. If he's town, the scum need to kill him. If he doesn't die after a day or two, we lynch him. At least then we've got the chance to get some cop targets, and like Caex himself suggested, he'll be more likely to incriminate his scum buddies anyway. Win win!
Stardust piggybacking his scumbuddy's reasoning. Again, not exactly conclusive, but worth posting.
But then even after that logic that Stardust mentions, CC comes in with:
Quote from CC »
Reading Drey's most recent response along with zindabad's analysis is making me reconsider things. Drey isn't my fav, but that looks like pretty genuine analysis of Caex.
I hate the idea of lynching a claimed cop without trying to get some use out of him, but at this point, I think knowing his alignment will be the more useful info to have now, rather than waiting for potential investigations that we won't even be able to trust until he flips.
Ultimately, he is the scummier of the two. I'd rather just get it done then have it possibly still hanging over our head in the morning.
Unvote, Vote Caex
It's like he knows Caex will flip scum eventually, and he's a goon, so there's no real value in leaving him alive vs. getting the town credit for attacking him, here. Can't imagine how he could know these things, though. :eyeroll:
There's no real value either way, after Caex claimed.
CC is town. I've liked his questions and I think he's working in the right direction.
Uh. What questions? CC had been gone 95% of the game at this point, and only asked about 2 questions total, one of which was asking Stardust how many games he had played. How is asking that heading in the 'right direction'? Making up BS reasons to mark his buddy as town. But I acknowledge that he could have just been making up BS reasons to call town, town - as he did Che in that same batch. Whatever. Still worth pointing out.
What? You edited out a quote where he said the same thing about you as he did about me and you're using that as an attack on me.
Huh, CropCircles votes Caex after the claim. Decent reasons for doing so (more information for Day 2), though I can't agree that Caex's case is open and shut enough to turn down the chance of a confirmed townie for tomorrow.
This is a telling quote. Look at him setting up CC to be town after Caex flips scum. CC is scum.
In post #430, Stardust 'cases' CC, and flat out says that he...
Quote from Stardust »
So CC felt pretty good until those last few posts. He's been involved and making decent posts, but not really asking questions and really hunting as much as he could be. Could be scum, but I'll wait to hear his replies to my questions and maybe a response to my findings here.
Isn't really asking questions.
After he'd just said he was asking good ones.
Slots him into third place on his 'to lynch' list, but leaves CC an out by saying he 'could' be scum, pending his responses. Just textbook clumsy distancing.
Truncated. You're repeatedly saying Stardust completely forgot what he said about CC, and tries to set up a lynch for D2.
I'm really amazed at how you're twisting things that show how I'm town into scumtells. If you were trying to get someone besides me lynched, it might just work.
Quick 5 minute glance gives me a townread on DRey, which should be great for breaking this game open. More after I've read.
I really dislike 'breaking this game open'. It feels so forced, like he's shouting LOOK HOW TOWN I AM DOING TOWN THINGS AND FIGURING OUT THE SCUM BECAUSE I'M TOWN. I acknowledge that town have said it before, but then he does it again:
Quote from Seppel »
Let's break this game open. This was going to be a review by player starting with Stardust but Xyre just went and derailed my sled into a straight up PBPA:
So forced. He's trying to alter the mindset of the person reading it, painting himself as town trying to solve the game.
#456 is his big catch up post, and I encourage you two go re-read it.
Points from it:
-Gives a thumbs up to Caex attacking Xyre
-Asks Caex why he's suspicious of Stardust
-Posts this at Caex, doing the first of multiple 'clears' on Stardust
Quote from Seppel »
What games have you seen scumStardust? I have yet to play with a scumStardust. How does it differ from a townStardust?
Not buying it.
Then again right after, he confirms Stardusts' self-meta, calling him town due to him...being scummy in another game as town? I mean, what.
Giant Robot Mafia. Practically a repeat of Stardust's behavior here.
Reading through again, I'm convinced that Caex is scum and Zionite is bussing him. DRey as the third makes this all work quite nicely! Interactions are there, but obviously we'll need a flip to prove it out.
*throws it in the oven*
and then this:
Quote from Seppel »
...
Oh what the **** caex
the ****
are you for real
and you can't be protected what the hell
welp
Fake, forced, a farce, you name it. This is not a genuine reaction at all.
Uh, yes it is. I had just spent hours reading the game and I was all set to windmill slam the scumteam and suddenly my entire world flips on its head.
If you can't understand the frustration I felt after all that, then you must've known Caex was going to flip town.
Who the **** falseclaims unroleblockable AND unprotectable? In four years and over 50 games, I've never seen something so... ballsy.
One town tell does not erase dozens of scum tells.
Him quoting this kind of cracks me up, because it's exactly what I've been trying to say about Seppel himself - one thing that points towards him town (the jail) doesn't override the multiple scummy things he's done this game, especially when the other circumstances mean you can't clear him for it (his claimed role, the action of redirecting the vig, the 'endgame' when there's a jailer alive, etc).
There you go again, turning towntells into scumtells.
Here's the T/S list from Seppel at start of his next post:
Quote from Seppel »
Seppel (r. CropCircles) - Still has one transformation left
Caex Kothar - Turned out to be one of the worst cops ever
Zionite - Posting with intent. I haven't seen anything that mirrors Cyberspace play.
DRey - Seems to be playing his towngame.
DYH (r. kpaca) - Kpaca was acting town and hasn't been replaced yet.
Stardust - Actively scumhunting. Don't like the continued push on Caex, though.
WellOfLostGnomes - I remember liking what he had to say, but can't remember any of it.
Wessel - Needs to say something that can give me a strong read on him.
Cyouni (r. Deaths_Vampire) - Said nothing notable.
Voxxicus (r. Che Guevera) - Hasn't been participating.
zindabad - No content.
Xyre - Hypocritical statement against Kpaca. Ending his "pro/joke" post with a question mark. A confusingly aggressive attempt to call DRey scum with Kpaca. An accusation of Zionite coaching out in the open. Something that seems like an appeal to DRey to vote Caex.
The only negative he points out regarding Stardust is that he's pushing Caex. Convienent, given, y'know. Caex will flip scum, making Stardust look better.
Oh neat, a PBPA of Stardust. Zionite says, "It's practically impossible that I'm bussing Caex." Why "practically?" Eh, I'm just going to reread Stardust myself.
Going to re-read Stardust despite constantly defending him based on meta, which implies that he's read his posts in the first place. Zzzzz.
Reading each of Stardust's posts individually makes him look like he's coming out of nowhere, but if you read them in order, you see how his stream of consciousness flows. He's kind of like Void. Each time I think he's saying something out of nowhere, it makes sense from his mindset.
More clearing of Stardust.
So I was wrong. I happen to be wrong a lot. I'm also right a lot.
You're not even paying attention to everything I was right about. And when you do, you're like "oh Seppel is scum for being right." This is just as disappointing as your FHF casing of Void.
In regards to Stardust asking Wessel if his 'Stardust seems to have an eye on everything' was sarcastic.
It's like he's trying to beat. It. Into. Our. Heads. That. Stardust. Is. Town. By repeatedly mentioning it, with the flimsiest reasoning on the planet.
Quote from Seppel »
Oh neat, a PBPA of Stardust. Zionite says, "It's practically impossible that I'm bussing Caex." Why "practically?" Eh, I'm just going to reread Stardust myself.
Bolded. Where's the town mindset behind going 'oh neat, a pbpa of someone I've been repeatedly saying is town'? There's not one.
"Oh neat" because I was starting the game by reading Stardust first, then got derailed by Xyre.
Seppel (r. CropCircles) - Still has one transformation left
Caex Kothar - Turned out to be one of the worst cops ever
DYH/Kpaca - Kpaca was acting town and DYH is good.
Zionite - Posting with intent. I haven't seen anything that mirrors Cyberspace play.
DRey - Seems to be playing his towngame.
Stardust - Actively scumhunting. Don't like the continued push on Caex, though.
WellOfLostGnomes - I remember liking what he had to say, but can't remember any of it.
Wessel - Need answers.
Cyouni (r. Deaths_Vampire) - Need content.
zindabad - One post of content. Voxx favoritism.
Xyre - Hypocritical statement against Kpaca. Ending his "pro/joke" post with a question mark. A confusingly aggressive attempt to call DRey scum with Kpaca. An accusation of Zionite coaching out in the open. Something that seems like an appeal to DRey to vote Caex.
Voxxicus (r. Che Guevera) - As Che, bad participation, mindset is off, and he called Caex the cop. Voxx's entrance was mud.
Still the same blurb on Stardust, despite apparently reading a PBPA of him, and re-reading all his posts to be able to call him town on meta, and mention how stream of consciousness and therefore town he is.
Conveniently, that's a subtle way to call himself town, given his 'catch up' posting style. Imagine that.
I'm swapping Seppel for Wessel now, and for reasons on Voxx, see below.
I've made like three posts. What reasons did you have for me being one of your top suspects? And why add the "now" qualifier to the end?
You dirty little snake.
Cyouni was hopping off me. He hadn't explained why he was on me, so the abrupt hop off was confusing, and notably the beginning of my suspicion on Cyouni.
You're trying to say I was defensive about someone dropping suspicion of me.
Stardust is worth looking into - I really don't like the 'I'll respond to your case tomorrow' back and forth with Zionite. It reads like he knows he'll be alive tomorrow.
Oh man, if I was killed tonight I would be super proud. There is no way I'm the right choice for a nightkill with claimed PR's and lots of vets in this game. So, yes, I'm assuming I'll be alive Day 2.
Just kind of pointing at this in hindsight how quickly Stardust should have been lynched because of the bulletproof claim, heh. He couldn't have been shot N1, so his response here shows that he wasn't posting with the mindset of a town with a bulletproof.
I think it also shows that I didn't know he had a bulletproof, and therefore wasn't scum with him, but WiFOM, blah, blah.
Let's just ignore the part where he says your towniness forgives Che's scumminess. Smooth.
I mean, I get that the people bulldogging into me are just going to say it's bussing, but pull heads out of rectums, acknowledge that bad play does not equal scum, and let's actually lynch someone who has a chance to be scum.
Since that's not me.
"Are going to say" = future, meaning "After Xyre is lynched (and flips scum), people will say I bussed my scumbuddy." He genuinely believes I'll flip scum and that he'll pay for such a play; I don't see a scum thinking of a player he'd know to be a townie like this. (And while I know we can't be scumbuddies, also note that this would be a really stupid thing for someone to openly acknowledge about their bussing.)
He's town, people.
That's actually pretty astute on Xyre's part, and I somehow missed that first couple times through.
He's right - my mindset was that Xyre was scum, and that I was going to be lynched/attacked afterwards, for bussing him. That's not remotely a scum mindset when I'd know that Xyre would flip town. Reconcile that with lynching me, please.
You believed Xyre was your scumbuddy, and you made that post. I've tried gambits like that before. Can't remember where off the top of my head.
Look at this. 6-man wagon run up on Cyouni, and the final 5 people on it have all flipped town.
If nothing else, this should basically confirm Seppel as scum, especially when Caex was still an alternative lynch.
Caex quickhammered it from there, of course, but I challenge you to /ever/ find a day one lynch in a mini or basic on town, where the first six people were all town.
Ever.
Improbable, but it happened in this game. And I'm certain I've been in a basic where that's happened. I recall scumTCM throwing on the hammer vote.
Things I discovered in my rereads.
a)Well is town beyond doubt. I have no doubt's he's with Iso, there's some things he said only Iso could have know. b)Stardust is very, very likely scum, if he's scum Seppel is scum with him.
c)Voxx is likely scum. d)Caex is scum, but everyone knew that already.
I wonder why Drey got shot N2? :eyeroll:
OMG I CAN DO THAT TOO:
Quote from Drey »
Things I discovered in my rereads.
a)Well is town beyond doubt. I have no doubt's he's with Iso, there's some things he said only Iso could have know. b)Stardust is very, very likely scum, if he's scum Seppel is scum with him. c)Voxx is likely scum. d)Caex is scum, but everyone knew that already.
I now do suspect that WoLG is a neutral, but I also think that we shouldn't be wasting time on voting him at present. The whole thing feels like a smokescreen spat out by Seppel in order to obscure the wagon on his floundering scumbuddy (Stardust.) Scum would love us to lynch WoLG now - pressure's off for a while, free night when most of our power roles are dead or have used up their one-shots - it just seems like a bad idea.
Yup.
Quote from Seppel »
Or we could lynch WoLG and not potentially lose the game now that Zionite's provided the last piece of the puzzle.
Scum fearmongering, fixation on neutral because...he's scum. Everything points to it.
God damnit. That's why I was waiting, Zionite. I wanted to hear WoLG's explanation. Because I'm a ring-bearer too.
Elrond Half-elven, Town Ring-bearer Unkillable. I can't be killed at night, though I won't say how many shots. I'm almost sure that DRey shot me last night.
@Zindabad - Reconcile Stardust claiming to be shot by Drey with my post(s) in our Jailer chat. Where I pointed out the inconsistency in his claim to you, but didn't bother to do so in the thread. Where's the scum mindset there? Why wouldn't have I tried to get universal town credit for it, when you were positive I was town, anyways?
Like, oh...Seppel did:
Quote from Seppel »
There are so many things wrong with Stardust's claim. It's like he hasn't even been paying attention. So beautiful.
I wasn't jailed that night so how could I have spoken in private?
And telling one townie is a lot less damaging than telling all the townies. Especially if you see Stardust going down and want to look town for it. Which is another good reason Zindabad is alive: you thought you had him in your pocket.
The simple fact of the matter is that you believed Wessel's role as claimed and you were planning on having an extra mislynch day.
Quick back and forth between Seppel and Stardust that is quite possibly the worst distancing attempt I've ever seen.
They were trapped, panicking, and flailing.
Quote from Seppel »
Actually, if DYH is a scum governor, then I'm fairly certain that we've already lost. In which case, it doesn't matter who we lynch.
But if you guys can't figure it out that I'm town and Stardust is scum, then I suggest we lynch Voxx and save the dichotomy for tomorrow.
Quote from Stardust »
You know what, I had this basically typed up since 9:15, but had to leave it to go to work. Now that Seppel's jumped on Voxx instead of wanting to clear this dichotomy, I think I'll just
Vote Seppel.
Both of them trying to paint it as a dichotomy is surrreeeeely a complete coincidence, right? :eyeroll:
I call it a dichotomy and Stardust grasps the language and runs with it.
I mean, I'm not the jailer, but his reasoning wasn't 'Voxx isn't the jailer' it was that 'There is no town jailer', which has been proven to be 100% false. If there's any town dichotomy, it's between Zindabad and Seppel, as both protectives, but he's convienently not mentioning that, after trying to hammer home the dichotomy between himself and Stardust.
OH MY GOD HOW MANY TIMES DO I HAVE TO SAY THAT ZINDABAD WAS WHERE MY PARANOIA WAS BEFORE HE DIDN'T HAMMER YOU?
OH WOW IT'S SO ****ING CONVENIENT THAT I'M NOT SHOWING A DICHOTOMY BETWEEN MYSELF AND THE CONFIRMED TOWN JAILER.
Consider at this point, he couldn't have known that Wessel would actually kill Zionite:
That means that he thought it would be Jailer!Voxx, Cop!Zionite, Townfirmed!Zindabad, Governer!DYH, Seppel (with him shooting one of those) on the final day.
So he feels pinned and cornered, and the only option he sees as that moment is to try and deflect onto DYH.
I'm guessing that overnight he realized that if Zionite didn't die via Wessel, that he couldn't win, so he shot DYH and hoped that it'd come down to 4 remaining.
It worked out in his favor.
That's your explanation for pinning the kill on me?
Convienently, after I point out that the game is solvable by lynching Seppel, and jailing whichever of WoLG or myself Zinda finds more likely scum, Seppel points this out:
Quote from Seppel »
Notable: Today is listed as "Endgame" and Voxx keeps wanting us to get to tomorrow.
Annnnd we're back to the logic that I've been trying to exasperatedly point out all day.
But I highly encourage reading through that game a bit, and looking at the differences between Seppel's play there, and his play here.
He felt off to me immediately upon replacing in, and that's mostly where the feeling came from, when he replaced in, in that game.
And I'm out. 9-10 hours is too many sitting here playing mafia.
In FHF the circumstances were different: I had a daykill, and I wanted to use it in my first post. Therefore I spent more time than I normally do catching up. I probably reread that game 5 or 6 times upon replacing in, compared to this one where I read once upon replacing in.
Also, looking back on it, I was in fact going to read through the same way as I did in FHF. Right here from the beginning of my replace-in post:
This was going to be a review by player starting with Stardust but Xyre just went and derailed my sled into a straight up PBPA
Okay, done.
ITT: Voxx is scum and just repeats the same arguments over and over, and even lies to try to push for my lynch.
We have until Thursday. I intend to make every minute of it count. In all probability, we lose if we make the wrong decision.
I have read all of the back and forth between Voxx and Seppel and would like to see Voxx's response. At present all I'm ready to say is that I'm no longer putting any stock in the fact that Seppel was jailed last night. I'm going to cast my vote on behavior alone.
You still have done nothing to explain to me why you think voxx is town or responded to what I've asked you. If you decide to vote for seppel, then it's 2v2 and we no lynch, potentially putting us in the exact same situation tomorrow. Where is the "making every minute count" when you're not actually participating?
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You still have done nothing to explain to me why you think voxx is town or responded to what I've asked you. If you decide to vote for seppel, then it's 2v2 and we no lynch, potentially putting us in the exact same situation tomorrow. Where is the "making every minute count" when you're not actually participating?
Should I take this to mean you certainly will not vote Seppel?
(I've been out of state and only got back late last night. I've been reading posts on an ipod but I certainly wasn't going to try to contribute anything from that.)
Period.
You're asking me to modgame to account for how you could be town.
And yet you're telling me not to modgame.
Double standard = no."
A No lynch would loose the game for the town:
1.) Voxx is scum and since he is an experienced player managed to convince Zindabad that he's town behaviorally. He's lying about being vanilla town. He was unchecked last night, and the mafia kill was preformed. It's the simplest answer, and the best answer.
If he's unblockable and the jail doesn't effect him, he kills me and convinces Zinda to lynch seppel for the win tomorrow.
2.) Seppel is scum and has an unblockable kill that works through the jailer. Zinda is saying he's going to jail either me or Voxx, and Seppel knows I think Voxx is scum: He kills Zinda, and we lynch Voxx tomorrow for the scum win. Or he submits no kill, then when we start the day with no deaths whoever Zinda blocked is considered scum and lynched.
Regardless of which one of the two of you is scum, the town can't win with a no lynch.
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Here's hoping the jail on Seppel works, and that it was just a 1-shot that let him kill through it.
If people refuse to actually look at behavior, there's no point in me even wasting time and energy typing at the brick wall.
Christ this has been frustrating, might be time to take a mafia break.
"...a talisman against all evil, so long as you obey me."
Seppel's scum. If you block him and there's no kill, he'll claim that I just no-killed.
If you block myself or WoLG, he won't kill, and will attempt to pin it on us. Or he might kill, and will just claim that we're the unblockable ones, clearly.
It's WiFOM, and the only thing it will accomplish is either getting you killed, or being right back here tomorrow with four alive.
If we lynch today, there's at least the outside chance that you can jail Seppel tonight if you're forced to lynch me.
Realistically I don't think you'll be able to. I think he's probably permanently unblockable - but there's at least the chance that he just had a 1-shot ninja kill as part of his Mafia JoaT role.
Seppel needs to be the lynch today.
The logic against lynching him and jailing me is so circular that it hurts my brain.
'But what if you're unblockable!!1!'
If you're acknowledging that there could be an unblockable role, why are people assuming it's me, instead of the person only being cleared because he was just jailed?
I don't understand it. Iso in particular is just being terrible.
Except I was jailed after Stardust was lynched, and you were jailed before Stardust was lynched. You keep trying to say that we're alike, but we aren't.
You also seem to have all the night actions plotted out, showing that a NL results in a NK. You keep talking about some sort of unblockability to push that we need to lynch today, which makes me think that it's a passive ability you have. You're sticking to the story that you're vanilla, and with the tracker and watcher in the setup, I can believe that you don't have an activated ability, and instead, you have an unblockable kill.
But regardless of your abilities, I don't believe WoLG could be mafia, and Zindabad is clear.
Vote Voxxicus
I'm talking about unblockability, because you have it, in some form.
I'm town. WoLG is probably town. Zindabad is confirmed town.
That means that last night, you were both jailed, AND still committed the kill. There are a couple ways that could happen, with a passive unblockability as part of your role being the most likely. A 1-shot ninja kill would also work, as part of your Scum!JoaT role.
In a vacuum, you are the most likely scum remaining just from behavior and voting analysis.
So the only thing keeping you from being lynched today is the jail. Literally, that's the only thing in your favor.
So I suggest lynching you, and jailing me tonight.
If you try to shoot that down as 'Voxx could be unblockable', I'm pointing out that it is terrible, circular logic. If you admit that unblockability could exist, then you have to acknowledge that the person only cleared from the jail is much more likely to have it.
That's what I was trying to explain to WoLG/Iso/Zindabad. That the logic being used there was terrible.
From my perspective, you /have/ to have some way to circumvent the jailing, hence wanting you lynched. It's basic logic.
The only real hope is that it was only a one-shot, and Zinda can stop your kill tonight, if he goes through with lynching me.
Because this is stupid.
It's simple risk aversion - lynch Seppel, since in the worlds where he is scum, he's already shown that he can bypass the jail, and jail me tonight if it gets that far.
But it won't get that far, and Seppel knows it.
Because he'll flip scum, and end the game.
He's so quick to point out that it says 'end game', when the obvious interpretation there is that he can't be blocked.
If people want to try and fearmonger about 'oh no, then Voxx could be unblockable', then you have to consider that Seppel could be, as well - and you need to go back to behavior.
There is nothing Seppel has done this game that is remotely town, and it's stupid and frustrating and exasperating that people are dismissing his god awful behavior based on the jail.
Then trying to use the logic where Seppel can't be unblockable, but I could be is even more exasperating.
I don't understand why not lynch Seppel and end the game. The only reason I even mention being able to jail me afterwards is because it gives them some peace of mind, and a backup plan (from their perspective).
Like, think it through logically:
If Seppel is scum, he has already shown that he can bypass the jail and make the night kill. So he would have to be the lynch, today.
But if he flips town, you can still jail me afterwards. (He won't flip town).
If your reaction to that is 'but what if you are unblockable', then I simply ask you what keeps Seppel from being unblockable.
The only thing clearing Seppel /is/ the roleblock.
This is probably the last post I'm going to bother to make, because I'm getting the feeling that it's pointless. I'm town, Seppel's scum, but no one is bothering to actually re-read and look at the behavior, or use a single grain of logic.
(And yes, this post is oddly formatting, and jumps between addressing Seppel and adressing the people that actually matter, but it's 3 am and I'm ticked off, frustration, and exhausted. Articulation isn't my strong suit at the moment).
You haven't made an attempt to rebut anything I've said in defense, and when a point is brought up against you, you just ignore it and shout SEPPEL SEPPEL SEPPEL.
So I'm done with you.
For what it's worth, he's starting to defend his posts instead of actually substantiating a case against Seppel - he did something similar in FHF at the end where he basically made a terrible case on Void and said, "I know this is a bad case, but come on, look how pro-town I've been!" (which incidentally didn't matter as he was the SK.)"
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I'll have a huge post up about Seppel's behavior this game in a day or two.
I just want to point out a piece of circular logic that is hurting my brain. Let me break it down into bulletpoints.
-Seppel's behavior has been worse than mine in a vacuum.
-Seppel is being 'cleared' because he was roleblocked last night.
-You don't want to lynch him, and block me, because I could be unblockable.
Do you seriously not see a huge problem with that logic?
If you acknowledge the possibility of unblockability, you have to also acknowledge that Seppel can't be cleared because he was blocked.
Logic just doesn't work that way, and it's beyond frustrating.
If you want to do a form of modgaming, and assume that the fact that the day title says 'Endgame' then that means that the jail tonight has no chance of stopping the night kill, if we lynch town.
So if that's the case, why are you clearing Seppel because he was jailed?
It makes no sense, and it's just stupid and frustrating, like I'm talking at a brick wall.
If you refuse to lynch Seppel and jail me, then you cannot clear Seppel based on the jail.
It's why I'm asking you to look at the behavior alone, instead of relying on Occam's Razor when it isn't taking the circumstances or overall game balance into account.
Drop the ego, drop the stubborness, and actually think, and evaluate rationally.
Explain why you will not lynch Seppel and lynch me.
After that, explain how that logic can possibly be reconciled with clearing Seppel because he was jailed.
Once you do that and realize it can't clear him, go back and look at Seppel's actions - the replace in post, trying to clear Stardust based on Meta, writing Caex off as the Cop, leading that lynch on Cyouni, targeting and wasting the town vig's shot, pushing hard for a mass claim that would have outed the jailer, trying to lynch WoLG for being neutral, after Scum!Caex had tried to paint WoLG for being neutral, the desperation deflection at DYH at the end of yesterday, the kill targets.
Everything points at Seppel being scum except the jail - and using a bit of logic and critical thinking means that the jail can't clear him.
Therefore Seppel is scum.
It's 3:40 am and I'm exhausted. Fingers and brain had a 'moment' there, heh.
If you're trying to say that Che's attacks on Caex make you look town, you're wrong there too. His refusal to actually make any kind of case or do anything than repeatedly state that Caex should die is one of the reasons that I, and others, wanted to lynch him. He could have easily been bussing his scum buddy.
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I re-read my last few posts, and I don't think I even mentioned Che.
Going to sleep, and have to be up again in 4-5 hours - I have Tuesday off of work, though, so I'm guaranteed to get posts up then if I don't have any time free tomorrow.
But at least read my last few posts, and try to evaluate the mindset I have to be coming from.
Put yourself in my position as a vanilla town with a jail on Seppel, and evaluate if my posts read genuine.
The simplest scenario when the day started was that WoLG had to be scum, but once I was certain you weren't faking the mason chat, the only explanation was that it had to be Seppel. I don't understand how you can see anything other than frustrated town from my posts, where Seppel is just pure dismissive scum.
His last post in particular is terrible: 'there's nothing I can defend myself against' is a scum mindset, where he is scum, he knows he's scum, but he can't prove that he isn't scum because.... he is scum.
I have no idea if that's going to make any sense to anyone else, or to me, even, once I get some sleep, heh.
You keep saying that it's "basic logic" from your point of view that Seppel has to be scum, as if that's not something that you would have to say as either alignment. WHen all four of the living players say 2 of them are for sure town, you absolutely HAVE to attack the remaining one, regardless of your alignment if you want to win.
Your posts read forced, you're grasping at straws trying to find any piece of wording that will "prove" to us that Seppel somehow perpetrated the kill while jailed, when the simplest answer is that you're scum and committed the kill. Constantly shouting "I'm Town, Seppel is scum" isn't going to convince anyone, especially when you're constantly having this defeatist attitude towards this entire game. It's like you already knew you lost when Zinda confirmed Seppel was jailed last night, and you're going through the motions to look exasperated with this game.
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Because it's obviously not frustrated scum / dismissive town?
I've already proven to the best of my ability that I'm not scum. There's nothing left to defend against because you're just re-wording your previous attacks and hoping they'll stick this time.
Here's why Voxx is scum:
* Che plays poorly, buses Caex (to the point of coaching), sets up lynches, then as soon as DRey becomes an option, he 180s to DRey in #308 (and slips in #309, calling DRey town, then tries to save face in #310), then disappears after people put DRey off the table.
* Che interacts with Stardust only once, and it goes nowhere.
* Voxx replaces in and immediately complains about the walls of posts and mudslings me. Then he just starts talking about Xyre for nearly the rest of D1.
* This recap post is the only mention of Stardust in the entire D1/D2 history. And it goes nowhere. Stardust never replies and Voxx never follows up.
* He tells DRey not to shoot Caex, even if Xyre flips town.
* Roughly two-thirds of Voxx's posts for the entire game have been made in the past week. And how quickly things change. Early D3 Voxx was pushing for a Wessel lynch, and I was off the table. So was DYH (for his play??? What??). DYH being dead makes a lot of sense.
The rest of Voxx's posts were all in the past week, and have been covered extensively.
Also, why not kill me last night if he was scum? He knew I was the jailer, but nobody else did. Oh, that's right, because he had already claimed my role. Why would he do that as scum? He volunteered to take on that gambit. All he had to do was go, "Oh, yes, you're town jailer, yes, jailing Seppel? Oh, excellent plan, of course" and then kill me.
Possible explanation for his behavior? I'd especially like to hear from WoLG as I'm getting something of a paranoid feeling about him.
"...a talisman against all evil, so long as you obey me."
It looks like Voxx believed Wessel's role completely and that he was planning on there being 5 players left alive today, meaning he had to get two mislynches off. The early day push on WoLG makes me think that WoLG was supposed to be the first mislynch. Without knowing what abilities they have, it's impossible to know what their plan was, or even if they had a plan beyond spray and pray.
I was getting jailed last night regardless of whether Zindabad was alive or dead in the morning. Voxxicus announced it at the end of D3, meaning I'd still be clear. With WoLG acting protown nearly the entire game, and DYH being the Gov, I'm fairly certain a Zindabad kill would result in Voxxicus's immediate loss of the game. But with DYH out of the way, I see how he was trying to argue WoLG and I to be scum.
Or it was completely improvised.
Voxx started off today trying to do exactly that: His first three posts today were him saying that I'm scum and faking the mason claim. I shut that down pretty quickly by offering proof to both you and Seppel. He realized that there's no way he could push a "Scum with out of game mason" lynch, especially after both you and Seppel were already pretty convinced I was town. (At least after Wessel flipped Gollum, anyway. You two were doubters for a day or so there.)
I'm assuming he didn't kill you for two reasons.
1.) He already had you 100% convinced that he was behaviorally town, even with his shady vanilla claim and Che's awful behavior.
2.) Going into an endgame situation like this, there's no way he could have left DYH (a claimed governor) alive.
As for why he volunteered to take on that gambit, I posit two reasons:
1.) He's an experienced player and taking on that gambit while leaving you alive would give him an ally in the end game.
2.) He's cocky.
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Also i found this in early #492:
...which I can only assume is a breadcrumb referencing the end of Kill Bill Mafia, as proof that Iso was hiding within WoLG.
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Sorry.
Would obviously prefer you not hammer, but if you do, don't let the paranoia about WoLG get to you - Seppel is scum, and you need to jail him for us to have any chance to win.
I don't think we'll hit the deadline (in 8 days), and unless Zindabad has found something groundbreaking about WoLG, we're pretty much good to go.
zindabad last posted on 5-20-2013 at 6:26 AM, so he is not yet due for a prod.
An overall increase in activity would be nice, though.
"...a talisman against all evil, so long as you obey me."
The game is very straightforward from my PoV:
1) Lynch Voxx.
2) If the game isn't over, jail WoLG and lynch him.
"...a talisman against all evil, so long as you obey me."
How do you feel about my response to your questions?
How do you feel about how much Voxx is mod gaming and appeals to emotion?
Can you at least say something besides "It's a tough decision and we have time."
Seppel, Voxx, Iso, and I have all pretty much exhausted every line of inquiry and questions that we can without your participation in this game. There's nothing else I can think of that we can say, and it's not fair to Asian, any spectators, or the dead players of the game to sit around and wait for days without you posting something that will move the game along.
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Seppel's still scum, and his recent posts are just an attempt to get Zindabad to act rashly, which will lose the game.
ZZZZZZZZZZ.
...which doesn't even make sense. You've somehow mentally cornered yourself into calling me scum instead of WoLG, yet Zindabad is paranoid of WoLG.
And the fearmongering that it'll "lose the game," just sends it on home.
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
Apologies for the absence, was extremely ill and on meds that just knocked me for a loop.
Have a few hours free, will focus on this game.
I'd been hitting ctrl + c obsessively, but when I hit submit, I'd been logged out. I logged back in, post was gone. No big deal. Pasted what I had copied and... it was just the last quote. =/
I know pretty much what I'd said and what I quoted though, should have it back up in an hour or two. Just this site is terrible about logging you out randomly.
save your work next time
There's some truth in this post by WoLG. I do feel like people that are town (you, Zindabad) are using PoE, and have focused on me as the only logical remaining option. I'm frustrated because I'm town, and I know that it means that Seppel has to be the remaining scum.
But I can't easily explain how he can be scum, and still have made the kill - so the only option is to do what I have been doing - make intelligent guesses based on claims and game design, and encourage you two to not fixate on one world.
Unless I've been wasting all of my energy on Seppel and it's actually WoLG, then he's scum. I don't think WoLG is scum, though. The role is proven, and doesn't logically make sense as scum. The only way it'd work is if Iso himself is somehow scum attached to Town!WoLG, but that's just not realistically feasible. Caex trying to push WoLG as a neutral, WoLG's push on Stardust, I'm pretty confident in WoLG being town.
Quite literally the only thing that could give me the slightest bit of hesitation there is DYH being shot over him, but that's so minor that it's not worth consideration. Plus, WiFOM.
The only thing that's really wrong about the post I quoted up there is that anything I've done or said is 'forced'. I'm town, and I'm genuinely frustrated at the fact that we're going to lose, because Seppel has some form of kill piercing or is flat up unblockable.
You're just looking at it from one side, and trying to fit my actions into a scum mindset, when they fit all the same into that of town that is resigned to losing.
WoLG completely ignored the posts I had when I thought I was hammered and the game was over. You can try to say that I'm unsportsmanlike enough to fake that if you wish, but that's not the case. I genuinely believed I'd been hammered, and Zindabad had lost us the game with the hammer. I couldn't fathom that Seppel hadn't cast a vote on me by that point, given that from his 'town' perspective, I was the remaining scum.
And everyone has ignored this bit of reasoning:
If you refuse to lynch Seppel, and then jail me, why are you clearing Seppel because he was jailed?
If you choose to believe that the title text saying [End Game] means that the jail cannot stop the final kill, why are you refusing to consider Seppel as scum, because in order for him to be scum, he would have to be able to bypass the jail?
The refusal to think logically regarding that is why I'm so frustrated.
@WoLG - outline to me precisely why YOU are not willing to lynch Seppel and jail me.
Once you've done that, explain how that same logic enables you to clear Seppel based on the jail from last night.
You've correctly identified my mindset, that I'm frustrated and defeated, but you're incorrectly assigning that as a scum mindset instead of town. It's probably mostly Iso's doing, because of his general refusal to accept that he could be wrong, but please clear your misconceptions and think things through.
Going to go back through and quote some things from Seppel, to remind people of how terrible his behavior has been this game. Quite literally the only thing in his favor is that he was jailed last night, and I've outlined the faulty logic being used in clearing him due to that jail above.
The game starts, and a wagon is borne on Zionite mostly out of RVS.
Zionite points out that Cropcircles had hopped on him for 'breaking RVS', here:
WoLG even acknowledged that, and voted for CC shortly after:
Plus, check out the wagon as a whole:
Zionite (5): Che Guevera, Wessel, CropCircles, DRey, Xyre
Zionite is town, I'm town, Wessel was...not-mafia, Drey is town, Xyre is town.
It's mafia inflating a wagon after town (for vote analysis purposes, neutrals are town) start it, and enticing other town to join.
Here's Zionite reaching the same conclusion that I've outlined. I somehow managed to scroll back, WoLG's vote came after this.
In post #93, Stardust asks for a prod on CC - and Drey points this out shortly after:
I think that's fairly telling. I can't imagine why CC's absence would be on his mind, and Zinda's...not. Maybe because one is his scumbuddy, imagine that.
Stardust's response was:
This is borderline panicking and flailing, trying to explain why his scumbuddies absence was on his mind, but he glossed over a town person not posting in the same townframe.
CC finally posts with:
Writes off the Zionite vote as a joke, which... it's possible it was at least partially joking. But it still doesn't change the fact that he made the vote, after two others, and is the only possible scum inflating the wagon in the middle/back end.
Asks Stardust how many games he's played, to establish the newb handwave.
The vote on Caex initially looked pretty decent to me, which is why I put Wessel and Stardust as more likely scum than Seppel. But knowing that Wessel was town and Stardust scum, this reads as CC creating a dichotomy of sorts - where if Caex is scum, he's attacking Stardust, who is surely town, then.
He was lurking, and needed to do something to get that stigma off him, so the best thing was to bus/distance, and attempt to clear his third teammate in the process. Good play, generally speaking.
Also, Stardust answers the question about his experience in #160, but CC never follows up on that, or even acknowledges it. Minor, but worth mentioning.
Game trudges along, and Caex makes his claim, blah, blah.
CC pops in with:
He needs to re-read the posts of someone that he was voting? Eh. If you're voting for someone, you aren't exactly indecisive about what you think, regarding them. Dislike.
I still have trouble seeing Caex come up with this on his own. It's why I think it's at least possible that Seppel has this as a passive with his role.
Stardust piggybacking his scumbuddy's reasoning. Again, not exactly conclusive, but worth posting.
But then even after that logic that Stardust mentions, CC comes in with:
It's like he knows Caex will flip scum eventually, and he's a goon, so there's no real value in leaving him alive vs. getting the town credit for attacking him, here. Can't imagine how he could know these things, though. :eyeroll:
Or it ensures that scum can help steer it to town, rather than him randomly sniping scum!
Uh. What questions? CC had been gone 95% of the game at this point, and only asked about 2 questions total, one of which was asking Stardust how many games he had played. How is asking that heading in the 'right direction'? Making up BS reasons to mark his buddy as town. But I acknowledge that he could have just been making up BS reasons to call town, town - as he did Che in that same batch. Whatever. Still worth pointing out.
This is a telling quote. Look at him setting up CC to be town after Caex flips scum. CC is scum.
In post #430, Stardust 'cases' CC, and flat out says that he...
Isn't really asking questions.
After he'd just said he was asking good ones.
Slots him into third place on his 'to lynch' list, but leaves CC an out by saying he 'could' be scum, pending his responses. Just textbook clumsy distancing.
#441 from Stardust:
Tying CC to scum!Drey. Except, well. Drey wasn't scum.
But he drops CC out of his top 3 here, regardless, in favor of Cyouni.
Annnnd I'm up to where Seppel and I replace in.
CC really didn't do much, but Stardust's interactions with him make him scum, and CC set up a dichotomy between Caex and Stardust, where if Caex was scum, it made Stardust town.
I really dislike 'breaking this game open'. It feels so forced, like he's shouting LOOK HOW TOWN I AM DOING TOWN THINGS AND FIGURING OUT THE SCUM BECAUSE I'M TOWN. I acknowledge that town have said it before, but then he does it again:
So forced. He's trying to alter the mindset of the person reading it, painting himself as town trying to solve the game.
#456 is his big catch up post, and I encourage you two go re-read it.
Points from it:
-Gives a thumbs up to Caex attacking Xyre
-Asks Caex why he's suspicious of Stardust
-Posts this at Caex, doing the first of multiple 'clears' on Stardust
Then again right after, he confirms Stardusts' self-meta, calling him town due to him...being scummy in another game as town? I mean, what.
How convenient.
Has this to say about Stardust:
Because of...
and then this:
Fake, forced, a farce, you name it. This is not a genuine reaction at all.
Him quoting this kind of cracks me up, because it's exactly what I've been trying to say about Seppel himself - one thing that points towards him town (the jail) doesn't override the multiple scummy things he's done this game, especially when the other circumstances mean you can't clear him for it (his claimed role, the action of redirecting the vig, the 'endgame' when there's a jailer alive, etc).
Here's the T/S list from Seppel at start of his next post:
The only negative he points out regarding Stardust is that he's pushing Caex. Convienent, given, y'know. Caex will flip scum, making Stardust look better.
Going to re-read Stardust despite constantly defending him based on meta, which implies that he's read his posts in the first place. Zzzzz.
More clearing of Stardust.
In regards to Stardust asking Wessel if his 'Stardust seems to have an eye on everything' was sarcastic.
It's like he's trying to beat. It. Into. Our. Heads. That. Stardust. Is. Town. By repeatedly mentioning it, with the flimsiest reasoning on the planet.
Bolded. Where's the town mindset behind going 'oh neat, a pbpa of someone I've been repeatedly saying is town'? There's not one.
Still the same blurb on Stardust, despite apparently reading a PBPA of him, and re-reading all his posts to be able to call him town on meta, and mention how stream of consciousness and therefore town he is.
Conveniently, that's a subtle way to call himself town, given his 'catch up' posting style. Imagine that.
Accuses me of being scum because...Che called Caex the cop?
When his own blurb on Caex is that he's the cop.
Heh.
Defensiveness.
---
And now for some WiFOM, I guess.
Go back and look at my post here:
I'd just seen this while skimming through the recent posts:
and figured I was done for.
Where's the motivation to claim vanilla, as scum? Especially after Caex claimed cop and made himself a dead man walking. By claiming vanilla, I resigned myself to being the lynch D1, and Caex would have clearly been the D2 lynch. Can you seriously see me leaving the entire game up to Stardust alone? I claimed vanilla because I AM vanilla, and kept slogging through the game because I wanted to help town before I bit the dust. It was just hard to sustain motivation, given that it felt like I was reading all the massive walls of text only to die, heh.
---
#519-526 is my catch up stuff. Re-read it if you wish.
I'm kind of cringing at how wrong I was, but I maintain it made sense from a 'alright, so we have two PR claims in Drey and Caex, who is scum if they are town?' perspective I had at the time.
Vote Count 5
Drey (5): WellOfLostGnomes, Xyre, Caex Kothar, Stardust, Che Guevera
Caex Kothar (3): CropCircles, kpaca, Zionite
Xyre (2): Wessel, Drey
WellOfLostGnomes (1): Zindabad
Not Voting (1): Cyouni
I guess this is interesting, though. Look at the Drey wagon. If I was scum, all three of us would have had to have piled onto a lynch consecutively. On day one. I highly encourage anyone to go and look at other minis/basics, and try to find an occurance of three scum voting in a row on a 4-5 man lynch wagon on D1. It just doesn't happen.
But I recognize that it's a type of analysis that most people handwave, so whatever, moving on.
Hops on the wagon.
---
Posts #541-553 by me are something that people should go back and re-read. It's my back and forth with Xyre, trying to figure out why he was acting the way he did as a town watcher.
I still have trouble believing he was town, because his actions make no sense.
Also, Caex buddying to me hardcore is kind of funny in retrospect, when it was to help generate a mislynch on Xyre.
Convenient that I'm sounding better after 3-4 people in a row say that they like my line of questioning on Xyre. :eyeroll:
Just kind of pointing at this in hindsight how quickly Stardust should have been lynched because of the bulletproof claim, heh. He couldn't have been shot N1, so his response here shows that he wasn't posting with the mindset of a town with a bulletproof.
I think it also shows that I didn't know he had a bulletproof, and therefore wasn't scum with him, but WiFOM, blah, blah.
I had another big post at #573. Don't think there's anything interesting in there, but you can try to get my mindset behind it I guess?
Oh, hm.
Here's an interesting bit from Xyre that I think is worth reading:
That's actually pretty astute on Xyre's part, and I somehow missed that first couple times through.
He's right - my mindset was that Xyre was scum, and that I was going to be lynched/attacked afterwards, for bussing him. That's not remotely a scum mindset when I'd know that Xyre would flip town. Reconcile that with lynching me, please.
'I'm only moving from this mislynch if we go to that mislynch and get another claim. And here, let me pin any accountability on that to DYH'
Scum.
Post #631 is Seppel attacking Zindabad for referincing previous scum games? Weak.
#638 should mesh with my town meta, I guess, if you care about such things - that's how I am generally on D1's - I need some confirmed flips to figure out other alignments, and PoE the game down.
Conveniently, that happened, when Caex, Wessel, Stardust and Seppel were my four scum reads on D2. And oh, look, those are the four scum. :eyeroll:
Seppel's #640-643 are more weak meta attacks on Zinda.
And then a no-reasoning hop on Cyouni.
This is an awkward thing to propose if Caex is scum, and a goon. What purpose would I have as scum to leave him alive for one more day, when he has no powers? Eh. Just another mindset thing to consider.
The bolded things. Clarifying that Stardust's interference wasn't intentional, and saying he likes him 'more and more' despite already having spent half the game repeatedly saying how town Stardust was.
The only way I can see it as is trying to hammer that read into everyone's subconscious by repeating it over and over.
Heh. Oops.
It is kind of funny in retrospect I guess, but yeah.
Something about this reads off. Especially given how intensely he's been defending Stardust.
Not conclusive by itself, but just another notch in the scumpost.
Meh. I'd forgotten about WoLG's fixation with an extra vote. That's probably only thing that would have me paranoid about him being scum - extra vote for a town mason is whatever, not amazingly useful. Extra vote for scum would be amazingly powerful.
Still think he's 99% town and Seppel scum, though.
Here's another big post by me.
Like I said, I don't see anything interesting in these, but just pointing them out if you want to look for mindset.
My point on Cyouni was that... extra vote is confirmable, and seems town-sided.
Despite that, his vote stays on Cyouni.
While a ton of posts pass.
He gets the lynch rolling back on Cyouni here, with that bit of...ability gaming? Modgaming? Whatever.
Cyouni (6): Seppel, DYH, Xyre, DRey, Zionite, Zindabad
Look at this. 6-man wagon run up on Cyouni, and the final 5 people on it have all flipped town.
If nothing else, this should basically confirm Seppel as scum, especially when Caex was still an alternative lynch.
Caex quickhammered it from there, of course, but I challenge you to /ever/ find a day one lynch in a mini or basic on town, where the first six people were all town.
Ever.
I'll wait.
Seppel is scum, and the votal analysis there backs it /hard/.
I wonder why Drey got shot N2? :eyeroll:
Trying to get Caex to out the jailer was terrible, and I guess shows that they don't have daychat? Or maybe they do, because of the Bullheaded thing. I dunno.
This was almost certainly discussed overnight - him coming up with guns blazing and trying to paint WoLG as neutral with his cop-ness. With them knowing a watcher and tracker existed, they probably thought there /was/ no cop.
And since Stardust had the ring bearer stuff with his name, Seppel probably came up with the plan to get 'Gollum' lynched as the neutral he thought he was, and clear Caex as the cop in the process.
It was a stroke of genius, really, so props, Seppel.
Except town still did have a 1-shot cop.
Oops.
'Look how town I am, not expecting the person I shot to get shot!' Puh-lease.
And here he starts the mass claim push, which was a terrible idea.
Reminder about how Seppel kept defending DYH because of his role. Only to try and deflect onto him later.
(in response to Stardust)
Distancing wheeeeee.
And he quotes a bunch of terrible stuff where he tries to meta defend Stardust against Caex.
Distancing against each other only to rapidly call him town afterwards is just blatant scum.
Wessel (2): WellOfLostGnomes, Voxxicus
Stardust (2): zindabad, Zionite
Seppel (1): DYH
Not Voting (3): Seppel, Stardust, Wessel
This vote count is still hilarious.
The three scum are the three not voting, the three people being voted are the three scum.
Combine Caex's Neutral push on WoLG with this, and I mean..Seppel was pretty clearly the mastermind behind that.
No way.
I don't know how I didn't see this before, but no way.
The entire D1 Seppel kept spouting his town read on Drey, from his very first post of the game.
There's just no way Seppel is town and his thought process went from 'Cyouni is town' to 'Drey is scum', instead of 'Caex or Xyre is scum'.
This should be grounds to lynch him alone, because he's claiming to directly interfere with the town vig shot.
Plus, look at the game and setup balance as a whole.
Full watcher, full tracker, jailer. 1-shot cop, because other info roles. And he's claiming to both be bulletproof (untargetable), and have a 1-shot doc, and a 1-shot redirect?
That's a huge chunk of the game that can't be shot late in the game, due to him, and it just makes no sense on town with the other roles we have available.
Plus, don't forget that he lied about the extra vote.
So he only has 3 shots, all protective, with a town Jailer, just... no.
He lied about the votes to 'catch a Gollum', in WoLG.
The fixation on the neutral just exacerbates the fact that he's scum.
Stardust had the ring-bearer stuff in his name, so he figured that had to be in the game. So he had Caex try to pin WoLG as Gollum on D2, and when that failed, tried to push the mass claim and lead the lynch on WoLG on D3.
I mean, open your eyes and think about what an amazing coincidence it'd have to be for Caex to be pushing WoLG as a neutral completely separately from Seppel. Spoiler: It wasn't a coincidence, and it wasn't separate.
Yup.
Scum fearmongering, fixation on neutral because...he's scum. Everything points to it.
@Zindabad - Reconcile Stardust claiming to be shot by Drey with my post(s) in our Jailer chat. Where I pointed out the inconsistency in his claim to you, but didn't bother to do so in the thread. Where's the scum mindset there? Why wouldn't have I tried to get universal town credit for it, when you were positive I was town, anyways?
Like, oh...Seppel did:
:eyeroll:
WellOfLostGnomes (3): Zionite, Seppel, Stardust
Stardust (2): zindabad, WellOfLostGnomes
Wessel (1): Voxxicus
Not Voting (2): DYH, Wessel
This drives home the point that it's a co-ordinated effort of Seppel/Stardust to mislynch WoLG due to the neutral fearmongering.
This. Whole. Post. By Wessel points out why Seppel is scum.
It's worth a read, and Seppel kind of imploded right afterwards, as his carefully crafted WoLG-neutral scheme fell down around his eyes.
I wonder why DYH was shot over WoLG or Zinda? Maybe because... he has full control of the lynch, and thought Seppel was scum? Shocker.
Quick back and forth between Seppel and Stardust that is quite possibly the worst distancing attempt I've ever seen.
They were trapped, panicking, and flailing.
Both of them trying to paint it as a dichotomy is surrreeeeely a complete coincidence, right? :eyeroll:
I claimed Jailer, and Seppel's instinct was to lynch Stardust, and hope DYH would hijack the lynch onto me.
I mean, I'm not the jailer, but his reasoning wasn't 'Voxx isn't the jailer' it was that 'There is no town jailer', which has been proven to be 100% false. If there's any town dichotomy, it's between Zindabad and Seppel, as both protectives, but he's convienently not mentioning that, after trying to hammer home the dichotomy between himself and Stardust.
Then this:
Trapped, panicking, flailing.
This has been a recurring thing on D3 with Seppel and Stardust.
Consider at this point, he couldn't have known that Wessel would actually kill Zionite:
That means that he thought it would be Jailer!Voxx, Cop!Zionite, Townfirmed!Zindabad, Governer!DYH, Seppel (with him shooting one of those) on the final day.
So he feels pinned and cornered, and the only option he sees as that moment is to try and deflect onto DYH.
I'm guessing that overnight he realized that if Zionite didn't die via Wessel, that he couldn't win, so he shot DYH and hoped that it'd come down to 4 remaining.
It worked out in his favor.
Is spot on.
And then we get to the final day.
Convienently, after I point out that the game is solvable by lynching Seppel, and jailing whichever of WoLG or myself Zinda finds more likely scum, Seppel points this out:
Annnnd we're back to the logic that I've been trying to exasperatedly point out all day.
If you have any reason to believe that jailing someone tonight will not stop the kill, then you cannot clear Seppel based on the jail.
I've spent like, I dunno, 8 or 9 hours today working on this stupid thing, and I'm more convinced than ever that Seppel is scum.
TL;DR - There is no TL;DR, read my post.
He was town, and it just reads so, so, so differently from this game.
Here's the catchup post
But I highly encourage reading through that game a bit, and looking at the differences between Seppel's play there, and his play here.
He felt off to me immediately upon replacing in, and that's mostly where the feeling came from, when he replaced in, in that game.
And I'm out. 9-10 hours is too many sitting here playing mafia.
Don't skim.
That's not even what Zindabad is saying.
Parroting me.
Zindabad as scum was still a serious possibility to me at that time.
Why would we jail you after lynching you?
The more you bring this up, the more I'm convinced you have that ability.
...about the title of the day?
The same can be said for you.
I'm just repeating myself now.
These are just old, re-hashed arguments that I've already quashed.
Or mafia / non-town starting a wagon, enticing town to join.
Or he was poking a townie and got tripped up when another townie was doing the same thing. It's a fairly common thing to do. I believe I called out a hypocrisy like that later on in this very game.
Or Caex fooled him.
Or it's a logical post considering a cop claim.
Or you have it.
There's no real value either way, after Caex claimed.
What? You edited out a quote where he said the same thing about you as he did about me and you're using that as an attack on me.
You even call it a BS reason to call Che town!
Truncated. You're repeatedly saying Stardust completely forgot what he said about CC, and tries to set up a lynch for D2.
I'm really amazed at how you're twisting things that show how I'm town into scumtells. If you were trying to get someone besides me lynched, it might just work.
SPOILERS: I'm town.
"Break"ing is part of my lexicon:
Giant Robot Mafia. Practically a repeat of Stardust's behavior here.
Iso can verify; he was the mod.
Oh hey I say it right here:
How accurate.
I liked his pressure on Caex.
Uh, yes it is. I had just spent hours reading the game and I was all set to windmill slam the scumteam and suddenly my entire world flips on its head.
If you can't understand the frustration I felt after all that, then you must've known Caex was going to flip town.
Who the **** falseclaims unroleblockable AND unprotectable? In four years and over 50 games, I've never seen something so... ballsy.
There you go again, turning towntells into scumtells.
Hypocrite.
Read != reread.
So I was wrong. I happen to be wrong a lot. I'm also right a lot.
You're not even paying attention to everything I was right about. And when you do, you're like "oh Seppel is scum for being right." This is just as disappointing as your FHF casing of Void.
"Oh neat" because I was starting the game by reading Stardust first, then got derailed by Xyre.
I have no idea what you're trying to convey here.
It was the way he said it. "Lynch the cop" or something like that.
HEY LET'S QUOTE THE WHOLE THING
You dirty little snake.
Cyouni was hopping off me. He hadn't explained why he was on me, so the abrupt hop off was confusing, and notably the beginning of my suspicion on Cyouni.
You're trying to say I was defensive about someone dropping suspicion of me.
Idiocy for not seeing that game was branded as high-powered. WoLG is the closest to a vanilla this game has.
Sure. You just have a few passives.
And it was good. It was the only good thing you had done, which is why, if you'll notice, I didn't call you town.
Let's just ignore the part where he says your towniness forgives Che's scumminess. Smooth.
You believed Xyre was your scumbuddy, and you made that post. I've tried gambits like that before. Can't remember where off the top of my head.
Really? I don't even remember calling DYH scum once all game.
I don't really have time for all this garbage. Let's get to the big bold lines.
Improbable, but it happened in this game. And I'm certain I've been in a basic where that's happened. I recall scumTCM throwing on the hammer vote.
I really don't have the time to try to find it.
Not a real word.
OMG I CAN DO THAT TOO:
WOW
Except WESSEL WAS GOLLUM AND HE KILLED ZIONITE.
I wasn't jailed that night so how could I have spoken in private?
And telling one townie is a lot less damaging than telling all the townies. Especially if you see Stardust going down and want to look town for it. Which is another good reason Zindabad is alive: you thought you had him in your pocket.
The simple fact of the matter is that you believed Wessel's role as claimed and you were planning on having an extra mislynch day.
And it turned out there was a neutral. What was so "carefully crafted" about what I believe was true and turned out to be almost-fully-true?
Blah blah blah...
I call it a dichotomy and Stardust grasps the language and runs with it.
Either way would result in a dead scum.
OH MY GOD HOW MANY TIMES DO I HAVE TO SAY THAT ZINDABAD WAS WHERE MY PARANOIA WAS BEFORE HE DIDN'T HAMMER YOU?
OH WOW IT'S SO ****ING CONVENIENT THAT I'M NOT SHOWING A DICHOTOMY BETWEEN MYSELF AND THE CONFIRMED TOWN JAILER.
How in the world do you get from SEPPEL IS POINTING OUT AN INCONSISTENCY IN VOXX'S STORY to SEPPEL IS TRAPPED PANICKING AND FLAILING.
I am absolutely astounded at the levels of BS you can come up with.
That is insane. You're a liar.
I've never deflected anything onto DYH.
That's your explanation for pinning the kill on me?
I'm done with this garbage.
...that you probably have an unblockable kill.
But you can clear me on 10,000 other things.
Whoop de ****ing doo.
I wasted like 3 hours replying to this.
In FHF the circumstances were different: I had a daykill, and I wanted to use it in my first post. Therefore I spent more time than I normally do catching up. I probably reread that game 5 or 6 times upon replacing in, compared to this one where I read once upon replacing in.
Also, looking back on it, I was in fact going to read through the same way as I did in FHF. Right here from the beginning of my replace-in post:
Okay, done.
ITT: Voxx is scum and just repeats the same arguments over and over, and even lies to try to push for my lynch.
-[thread=14456]The [Untitled] Avatar and Sig shop![/thread] Avatar from:[thread=25376] [Epic Graphics][/thread]
Awards:
Elegant Mafia: The Joker, Mafia MVP
I have read all of the back and forth between Voxx and Seppel and would like to see Voxx's response. At present all I'm ready to say is that I'm no longer putting any stock in the fact that Seppel was jailed last night. I'm going to cast my vote on behavior alone.
"...a talisman against all evil, so long as you obey me."
-[thread=14456]The [Untitled] Avatar and Sig shop![/thread] Avatar from:[thread=25376] [Epic Graphics][/thread]
Awards:
Elegant Mafia: The Joker, Mafia MVP
Should I take this to mean you certainly will not vote Seppel?
(I've been out of state and only got back late last night. I've been reading posts on an ipod but I certainly wasn't going to try to contribute anything from that.)
"...a talisman against all evil, so long as you obey me."