Progenitor Mimic is more for Reanimator than Geist. Like LordGrimpow talked on, it's way too slow for Geist. Clone is better served for that purpose, but Renounce the Guilds is the best option, since you can hit it off Augur and Snap it back.
Pitching Needle isn't a bad idea. I may try running it as well, it seems to hit a lot of cards that give us trouble, and can deal with utility lands if we don't get a Ghost Quarter.
Silklash Spider, as we discussed before, doesn't seem very good. Against most Aggro decks, its too slow, and against Souls, they usually have other avenues of attacking aside from that card. But it'll depend on your meta. I haven't had a match so far that I've thought 'I wish I had packed a Silklash Spider on my sideboard...'. If you want to stop Aggro, I would just pack an extra Trostani.
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I make art!
Sorry for any grammar/spelling errors, I mostly post from my tablet/smartphone.
Currently playing: Standard: UBRControl
Commander:
White Makes Right (Mikaeus, The Lunarch)
Izzet Fun Yet? (Jhoira of the Ghitu)
The Perfect Storm (Jeleva, Nephalia's Scourge)
Dead Grave Walking (Skullbriar, the Walking Grave)
How Could You Be So Heartless? (Heartless Hidetsugu)
Progenitor Mimic is more for Reanimator than Geist. Like LordGrimpow talked on, it's way too slow for Geist. Clone is better served for that purpose, but Renounce the Guilds is the best option, since you can hit it off Augur and Snap it back.
Pitching Needle isn't a bad idea. I may try running it as well, it seems to hit a lot of cards that give us trouble, and can deal with utility lands if we don't get a Ghost Quarter.
Silklash Spider, as we discussed before, doesn't seem very good. Against most Aggro decks, its too slow, and against Souls, they usually have other avenues of attacking aside from that card. But it'll depend on your meta. I haven't had a match so far that I've thought 'I wish I had packed a Silklash Spider on my sideboard...'. If you want to stop Aggro, I would just pack an extra Trostani.
Yeah, I agree on the Mimic, at least in faster Geist builds. I haven't had a chance to play it yet so I can't say for certain.
I really like Pithing Needle as a card. It's good against a lot, I mainboarded it in Modern at one point. I absolutely love it and I'm willing to try playing it again in this deck.
I'll probably end up cutting the Silklash Spider at this rate. I haven't really seen much Lingering Souls and like, I think a Trostani or even other random aggro hate would be better. There really aren't a lot of fliers in the format as far as I can see, and Silklash Spider is a bit of a let down since I really don't want to play things on my turn.
Speaking of which, what's the best way to deal with Voice of Resurgence? I'm not quite sure since I don't want to tap out on my turn but those Elementals creep up quickly. Just cast Supreme Verdict?
Voice is an interesting card, but not very backbreaking for us. We just cast stuff on our turn, and that's really it. Our win cons go over Voice and getting a 5/5 Wurm with trample lets us race them efficiently, as does Resto Angel. We basically lean on the plan of not casting counterspells unless we peel a Verdict first, and just worry about pummeling them head on, which is something our deck can d that a lot of other Control esque decks can't. We start using Azorius Charms to put back blockers instead of attacks and use Selesnya Charm as pumps instead. We just shift our battle plan is all.
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I make art!
Sorry for any grammar/spelling errors, I mostly post from my tablet/smartphone.
Currently playing: Standard: UBRControl
Commander:
White Makes Right (Mikaeus, The Lunarch)
Izzet Fun Yet? (Jhoira of the Ghitu)
The Perfect Storm (Jeleva, Nephalia's Scourge)
Dead Grave Walking (Skullbriar, the Walking Grave)
How Could You Be So Heartless? (Heartless Hidetsugu)
You may notice a little less support for aggro, that is because so far I have only seen one boros aggro deck in my area and I don't think it's fast enough to be called blitz. I see a bit of midrange, reanimator, and control though so I've focused my build for those slower match-ups while still being competent in the aggro matchup.
I'm thinking of a 2nd SB Runechanter's Pike. It's been performing very well and usually ending the game in 1-2 turns of entering play. I would probably side it in against the reanimator and control. I've really seen power plays like that perform very well in those slower match ups. Thoughts?
I'm still testing Purify vs Deathrite. I like that I can play Purify off a Thought Scour. On the other hand, I can pike up a Deathrite, but adding creatures (when I already have Clone) reduces the effectiveness of pike unless I remove probably Augur. It's a toss up. Thoughts?
My latest list:
I'm still testing Purify vs Deathrite. I like that I can play Purify off a Thought Scour. On the other hand, I can pike up a Deathrite, but adding creatures (when I already have Clone) reduces the effectiveness of pike unless I remove probably Augur. It's a toss up. Thoughts?
In my area, a lot of the Rites decks side out their Unburial Rites in anticipation of graveyard hate, so it makes it harder to make Purify effective. This is probably meta dependent, But I've found that Deathrite is probably more useful. Even if we only get to use 2/3 abilities, it gives us a way to gain life (which is nice), and helps us accelerate, something we don't natively run. And if they don't side out Rites, it just makes exiling creatures that much more useful.
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I make art!
Sorry for any grammar/spelling errors, I mostly post from my tablet/smartphone.
Currently playing: Standard: UBRControl
Commander:
White Makes Right (Mikaeus, The Lunarch)
Izzet Fun Yet? (Jhoira of the Ghitu)
The Perfect Storm (Jeleva, Nephalia's Scourge)
Dead Grave Walking (Skullbriar, the Walking Grave)
How Could You Be So Heartless? (Heartless Hidetsugu)
You may notice a little less support for aggro, that is because so far I have only seen one boros aggro deck in my area and I don't think it's fast enough to be called blitz. I see a bit of midrange, reanimator, and control though so I've focused my build for those slower match-ups while still being competent in the aggro matchup.
I'm thinking of a 2nd SB Runechanter's Pike. It's been performing very well and usually ending the game in 1-2 turns of entering play. I would probably side it in against the reanimator and control. I've really seen power plays like that perform very well in those slower match ups. Thoughts?
I'm still testing Purify vs Deathrite. I like that I can play Purify off a Thought Scour. On the other hand, I can pike up a Deathrite, but adding creatures (when I already have Clone) reduces the effectiveness of pike unless I remove probably Augur. It's a toss up. Thoughts?
If the description of your meta is accurate I would consider the second pike main. Pike is really only bad against aggro and in my playing I've always wanted two against both mid and control
after 2-2ing twice in dailies with this deck, I think I've put my finger on the problem. It can't beat thragtusk or cavern of souls (and especially not one naming "beast" or "ooze"). Thragtusk was designed to be a super good hoser of UW tempo decks, and this deck is trying to be a UW based tempo deck in a thragtusk meta. Nothing we have interracts favourably with it and it's not like it's a rarely played card. I'm happy to play against aggro with this deck all day long, but anything bigger is going to be playing thragtusks and it's just a crapshoot whether we can have the counter, and they don't have the cavern, at the right time. Because if it resolves, it's pretty much gg.
I played against a deck running 4x Thragtusk main and didn't have a single problem. Of course I run 4x Selesnya Charm main and am not afraid of a 3/3 token I can unsummon or block with a wurm.
As for cavern, the deck only runs 4x counterspells main and never sides counters in against cavern-using decks. So typically your solutions come from other spells anyway.
i'm not talking about beating a single thragtusk deck - I beat 3 over those 4 wins - I'm talking about a meta where the second most popular creature is just inherently good against us. If it resolves and you charm it you're down 5 damage and a card, that's bad and especially so for a tempo deck which we are. Then you need to deal with the token which can be annoying because our worms aren't very resilient and so a fair bit of the time you're going to have to spend another card on it.
It's not that it's impossible to beat, but we aren't a deck that goes under it in terms of aggro, we aren't a deck that goes over it in terms of late game control (we have no lifegain outside of rev so we can't just ignore it unlike a bant control deck) and we have no good single card answers to it in the form of a big flying threat (hellkite, aristocrat), or a blocker that interracts favourably with it (reckoner).
idk, i like the archetype, but being weak to the second most popular creature in the format doesn't seem like a good place to be really. I'm pretty sure this is why the deck is putting up almost no numbers on mtgo.
Maybe not on MTGO but its been doing pretty well at States getting into the top 8 in several of them:
Bant Flash, Skyler Stewart, 2013 Spring States - Utah, 5th - 8th, 5/21/2013
Bant Flash, Matt Oldaker, 2013 Spring States - West Virginia, 2nd, 5/21/2013
Bant Flash, William Rosario, 2013 Spring States - Delaware, 1st, 5/20/2013
Bant Flash, Andy Schott, 2013 Spring States - Florida, 5th - 8th, 5/20/2013
Bant Flash, Sean Collins, 2013 Spring States - Oregon, 2nd, 5/19/2013
Bant Flash, Grant Little, 2013 Spring States - Nebraska, 2nd, 5/19/2013
Bant Flash, Zachery Byrd, 2013 StarCity Open Standard - Charlotte - 5/11, 5th - 8th, 5/13/2013
Bant Flash, Joey Emmert, 2013 StarCity Open Standard - Charlotte - 5/11, 9th - 16th, 5/13/2013
I ended up cutting the Silklash Spider and Trostani for 2 Heroes' Reunion. I was having trouble against Naya aggro, or even just RG aggro. They often went too fast for me to stabilize and get to late game, hopefully that makes the matchup a bit better. I just want something to help me get to late game, 7 life is actually a decent amount I think.
how many unsummons are you playing? unsummon, snapcaster, unsummon into wrath when you're ready is basically unbeatable by most aggro decks. I don't think pure lifegain is the way to go, especially not for 2 mana. I'd think you should look at fog before that if you want to go deep vs aggro, it's way easier to snapcaster back and will gain you a similar if not greater amount of life.
I'm playing 3 Unsummons and 4 Snapcasters, but I don't always draw them. I really need ways to interact with them or stem the bleeding. Every time it was like I'm just like making Wurms, block a guy, they trade it with a Searing Spear or something. I find that against those decks, I'm always just going deep and hoping the game lasts so long that I get to big Revelations and get the game out of hand. I suppose I've got about 7 spells to interact with them early, but outside of that I don't have a lot. It could be that I am not exactly drawing well though, that wouldn't surprise me. I did draw 9 lands 1 spell against reanimator on a mull to 5.
So I've been playtesting this list alot lately and i found that certain matchups really just ran my ass over. SO the obvious solution was to tweak the board. What myself and my shop owner came up with a conversion board.
So it's as follows:
3x Centaur healer
3x Thragtusk
2x Rhox Faithmender
1x Trostani, Selesnya's Voice
3x Terminus
1 Supreme Verdict
2x Curse of Echoes
I am normally an Esper Control player who in the last few months made the switch to UWR Flash which ultimately lead to UWR Tempo Midrange. I liked the deck and had a lot of success but really loved this deck list both playing against it and watching it on Starcity etc.
Any tips are welcome, going to play a few more weeks in tourneys and some TCG events and IQ Qualifiers etc in the local area before I report anything back or any theory.
The main deck looks decent, however there are a few things in your sideboard that do not fit the style of this deck:
What you have:
-Terminus. This is a toss-up. The downside is that you may end up having to tap out on your turn to cast this. The upside is you can cast this off an Azorius Charm/Thought Scour draw during your opponent's turn. Risky with Sphinx's Revelation.
- Curse of Echoes. Another toss-up. It really depends on the meta you're going into. Personally I never had any luck with this, but it may be different for others so I will hold my judgement until you give us your feedback on it.
- Jace, Memory Adept. Good in control, not so good in flash. We seldom want to tap out on our turn and this guy just doesn't seem worth it. You can't dig for it with Augur either, it will just end up on the bottom of your library when you hit it. What was your reason for including him?
What you don't have:
Ray of Revelation: There are several enchantments that hurt us... a lot. Nevermore, Curse of Echoes, and the Bant Hexproof deck in general are difficult for us to deal with. Nevermore naming Advent of the Wurm without running a Runechanter's Pike can ruin our day. Curse of Echoes copies our... almost everything including Sphinx's Revelation, counters, and Advent of the Wurm. Bant Hexproof is very resilient to our charms and Unsummons.
Runechanter's Pike (main or side depending on meta): Without this we pretty much rely on Advent of the Wurm and Restoration Angel to bring home the bacon mmm bacon! It also allows our other creatures to become threats (Augur, Snapcaster, knight token), thus giving us a well-rounded balance of threats. Also scary on wurm or angel
The main deck looks decent, however there are a few things in your sideboard that do not fit the style of this deck:
What you have:
-Terminus. This is a toss-up. The downside is that you may end up having to tap out on your turn to cast this. The upside is you can cast this off an Azorius Charm/Thought Scour draw during your opponent's turn. Risky with Sphinx's Revelation.
- Curse of Echoes. Another toss-up. It really depends on the meta you're going into. Personally I never had any luck with this, but it may be different for others so I will hold my judgement until you give us your feedback on it.
- Jace, Memory Adept. Good in control, not so good in flash. We seldom want to tap out on our turn and this guy just doesn't seem worth it. You can't dig for it with Augur either, it will just end up on the bottom of your library when you hit it. What was your reason for including him?
What you don't have:
Ray of Revelation: There are several enchantments that hurt us... a lot. Nevermore, Curse of Echoes, and the Bant Hexproof deck in general are difficult for us to deal with. Nevermore naming Advent of the Wurm without running a Runechanter's Pike can ruin our day. Curse of Echoes copies our... almost everything including Sphinx's Revelation, counters, and Advent of the Wurm. Bant Hexproof is very resilient to our charms and Unsummons.
Runechanter's Pike (main or side depending on meta): Without this we pretty much rely on Advent of the Wurm and Restoration Angel to bring home the bacon mmm bacon! It also allows our other creatures to become threats (Augur, Snapcaster, knight token), thus giving us a well-rounded balance of threats. Also scary on wurm or angel
Okay I changed up the list a bit to meet a halfway point of two decision I was making with the deck. Going up to 3 augurs, down to 3 thought scours and adding 1 Pike for a Supreme Verdict Main board.
The reason I put in Jace, Memory Adept, was from my time with UWR Midrange Tempo deck which plays a lot like this deck, Jace was amazing to drop on 5 against Jund or something after countering turn 4/5 thrag/huntsmaster etc. I would generally either Rewind/Angel into turn 5 Jace or just straight Dissipate, Turn 5, Jace into Turn 6 reckonor/Supreme etc.
I figured a Rewinded/wurm on 4 into turn 5 jace was pretty backbreaking for them plus the psuedo thought scour card advantage on the plus+1 would work well with Snap and Pike. If you're telling me it doesn't seem to fit I will probably shy away but still sneak it into the sideboard for some events to test it depending on the store I go to in my area.
As far as Curse of Echoes when I played UWR Tempo I played this deck a lot (Bant Flash) Resolving Curse of Echoes was just GG against it. It is also pretty GG against the UWR deck (I was playing) and Control decks. A decent number of players locally are playing the Bant Flash and UWR Flash Variants as well as the decent stream of Control Shells. Which is the main reason I kept it as a 1 of. It may not fit this style of deck because in my UWR deck I could threaten turn 5/6 Thundermaw/Aurelia and then when they tap out to deal with that, I would then drop Curse on the following turn. Maybe with the lack of snap threats in this deck (aka Hasted/Cavern guy) it may not fit. I shall test.
Yeah on Curse of Echoes it sounds like your meta gives you plenty of reason to use a slot for it. Mine doesn't (at least not anymore, more people moving to midrange style decks over control) which is why I said it's a toss-up.
As for Jace, if it is working well for you, by no means remove it. Its just my preference of very rarely ever tapping out on my turn for anything unless my opponent gives me a reason to (ex. Voice) or an opportunity for something like pike/augur/verdict.
Yeah on Curse of Echoes it sounds like your meta gives you plenty of reason to use a slot for it. Mine doesn't (at least not anymore, more people moving to midrange style decks over control) which is why I said it's a toss-up.
As for Jace, if it is working well for you, by no means remove it. Its just my preference of very rarely ever tapping out on my turn for anything unless my opponent gives me a reason to (ex. Voice) or an opportunity for something like pike/augur/verdict.
Yep Yep, Figured as much. I will keep it out until I find a slack sideboard card aka if Terminus doesn't help I will add 1 Jace and 1 Verdict etc.
I'm using 2x Feeling of Dread in the SB against the Aggro Match-Up and it works very well.
Togehter with 2x Unsummon and 1x Simic Charm MB it mostly gives enough time to find a Supreme Verdict...
I've played with x2 feeling of dread in the sb and I would have to agree its pretty effective agaisnt aggro.
I've played with x2 feeling of dread in the sb and I would have to agree its pretty effective agaisnt aggro.
It's a good card against aggro but in a deck that doesn't play 4 + sweepers its primary purpose is often never utilized to the fullest.
The idea is too stall the board for 2/3 turns or so and augur to one of your 4 verdicts. At least that's how the card started seeing a rise in Esper Decks pre GTC/DGM/Reanimator Take over.
While it is possible to execute this play with 2 verdicts and 2 Feeling of Dread after Sideboard, the number density is just not there. While it is not a bad plan, it just isn't a stable one.
And Vero how do you feel about Heroes' Reunion vs Feeling of Dread. Is there a reason you run HR instead? Both can be flashed back, but only Feeling of Dread can be flashed back on its own.
I guess one upside is that against Bant Hexproof, Heroes's Reunion has the advantage of being able to stall damage from hexproof creatures. That's why I run it.
But if you don't see much hexproof, it seems Feeling of Dread has more advantages.
EDIT: I've also been considering trying Fog over Heroes' Reunion. Thoughts? It's like Psychobabble said, could save you more life and is easier to snap back.
How I look at it, if both decks are in magical christmasland.
Lets use Naya Humans as an example Our Deck is on the play:
A= Heroes' Reunion
B= Feeling of Dread
Turn 2:
they get a 3/3 Champion Mauler and BTE.
They Swing 7
A) You Heroes Reunion for 7 = 0 effective Damage.
B) You Feeling of Dread = 2 effective Damage.
A = 20
B= 18
Turn 3
They Drop SilverBlade Bound with 4/4 Champion
A) You Selesyna Charm Block the Mauler and Unsummon The Champion Effective Damage = 2
B) You Feeling of Dread The Mauler and Bte and Unsummon the Champion Effective Damage = 0
A= 18
B= 18
Seems Pretty Straightforward comes down to preference really.
Now Lets look at Naya Humans on the play
Turn 2
Swing 7
A) Unsummon Champion Take 4
B) Unsummon Champion Take 4
A=16 Hp
B=16 Hp
Turn 3
Silverblade Paladin
A) Heroes Reunion = Gain 3 Health
B) Feeling of Dread = Take 0 Damage
A= 19 HP
B= 16 Hp
Turn 4
Hellrider
A) Selesyna Charm the Mauler and Unsummon Hellrider PreCombat = Take 4 Damage or Azorius Charm and Thought Scour = Also Gaining us a card
B) Feeling of Dread and Unsummon Hellrider = Take 2 Damage
A= 15
B=14
After Turn 4 Health Totals will be
A= 15
B= 14
Boards States will be
A = Burning Tree and Silverblade ***If we chose Thought Scour we will have dug and have effectivly "Cycled" our charm.
B= Burning Tree , Mauler and Silverblade
If we assume that both A and B Hit Verdict on Turn 4
A=15 Hp
B= 14 Hp
Naya Turn 5
Hellrider Swing for 4
A= 11
B= 10
A= Now Going Into our Turn 5 we have the ability To flashback Heroes Reunion but only in Conjunction with a Snapcaster which we play as a 3/4 of. If done it will effectively gain us 7 hp and save us another 2/3 via Snapcaster Blocking.
Putting our effective health to 19/21 and our actual health at 18 We can do this on either our turn or our opponents turn.
B= Now Going into our Turn 5 we have the option of drawing another Verdict, 1 was already used so we have 2 of those left, we also have another shot of drawing our other Feeling of Dread to stall creatures up to another 2 turns.
Because our Feeling of Dreads are reactive spells we can not do anything on our turn with a hellrider and anywhere from 2 to 3 more creatures on our opponents side of the field come their turn. In almost any scenario we pass the turn holding 5 mana.
Naya Humans Turn 6 is when we have to start accounting for Searing Spears and Boros Charms which can deal us anywhere from 3 to 8 damage on turn 6
Naya Turn 6 =
Hellrider, Burning Tree and Lightning Mauler Swing
A= Take 8
B= Feeling of Dread = Take 2
A=10 Hp
B= 10 Hp
Board State =
A) Hellrider and Burning Tree
B) Hellrider Burning Tree and Lightning Mauler
Ending Notes:
Now I know this is looking at it ALL in a vacuum and as I said Magical Christmasland.
But what I have seen in my personal history and just in a theory perspective that Feeling of Dread and Heroes Reunion will close to always leave you at the same HP on their respective turns in a perfect world.
Pros of Heroes:
-Heroes will gain/loss you the same amount of effective health as Feeling of Dread will.
-Heroes allows you to effectively kill off 1 or 2 creature on your opponents board by freeing up your turn 3 . Also allows you to Azorius charm/thought scour indestructible etcs ie More Flexibility on Turn 3
- Heroes with snapcaster mage can effectively timewalk a lot of Naya Humans turn 4/5 plays it also allows you to be proactive as compared to being reactive.
Cons of Heroes Reunion:
-Requires an extra piece in Snapcaster Mage and Thought Scour Combos on Turn 3
-Does not fully protect against Hellrider or Silverblade Paladin
Pros of Feeling of Dread:
-Allows you to stop hasted creatures such as Hellrider to avoid ping damage effectively timewalking their turn 4 play.
-Can be Flashbacked on its own ie Requires Less Pieces
Cons of Feeling of Dread:
-Does not effectively Protect against Burn spells ie Searing Spear/Boros Charm
-Is a reactive spell and is not proactive
-Effectively negates damage and attacks but does not actually remove any creature.
-Relies more on Verdict in Comparison
You guys are forgetting 1 crucial thing, the main reason I mentioned heroes reunion many pages ago, instead of fog and I suppose feeling of dread now, is that we can cast it on our own turn against VoR. Fog and feeling of dread are much worse when you are adding damage to your opponents board, and I've personally never cared much for feeling of dread when I wasn't using it to force through damage. Plus reunion is better if we are ahead because we can cast it whenever.
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Pitching Needle isn't a bad idea. I may try running it as well, it seems to hit a lot of cards that give us trouble, and can deal with utility lands if we don't get a Ghost Quarter.
Silklash Spider, as we discussed before, doesn't seem very good. Against most Aggro decks, its too slow, and against Souls, they usually have other avenues of attacking aside from that card. But it'll depend on your meta. I haven't had a match so far that I've thought 'I wish I had packed a Silklash Spider on my sideboard...'. If you want to stop Aggro, I would just pack an extra Trostani.
Sorry for any grammar/spelling errors, I mostly post from my tablet/smartphone.
Currently playing:
Standard:
UBRControl
Commander:
White Makes Right (Mikaeus, The Lunarch)
Izzet Fun Yet? (Jhoira of the Ghitu)
The Perfect Storm (Jeleva, Nephalia's Scourge)
Dead Grave Walking (Skullbriar, the Walking Grave)
How Could You Be So Heartless? (Heartless Hidetsugu)
Yeah, I agree on the Mimic, at least in faster Geist builds. I haven't had a chance to play it yet so I can't say for certain.
I really like Pithing Needle as a card. It's good against a lot, I mainboarded it in Modern at one point. I absolutely love it and I'm willing to try playing it again in this deck.
I'll probably end up cutting the Silklash Spider at this rate. I haven't really seen much Lingering Souls and like, I think a Trostani or even other random aggro hate would be better. There really aren't a lot of fliers in the format as far as I can see, and Silklash Spider is a bit of a let down since I really don't want to play things on my turn.
Speaking of which, what's the best way to deal with Voice of Resurgence? I'm not quite sure since I don't want to tap out on my turn but those Elementals creep up quickly. Just cast Supreme Verdict?
Grixis Death's Shadow, Jund, UW Tron, Jeskai Control, Storm, Counters Company, Eldrazi Tron, Affinity, Living End, Infect, Merfolk, Dredge, Ad Nauseam, Amulet, Bogles, Eldrazi Tron, Mono U Tron, Lantern, Mardu Pyromancer
Sorry for any grammar/spelling errors, I mostly post from my tablet/smartphone.
Currently playing:
Standard:
UBRControl
Commander:
White Makes Right (Mikaeus, The Lunarch)
Izzet Fun Yet? (Jhoira of the Ghitu)
The Perfect Storm (Jeleva, Nephalia's Scourge)
Dead Grave Walking (Skullbriar, the Walking Grave)
How Could You Be So Heartless? (Heartless Hidetsugu)
3x Augur of Bolas
2x Restoration Angel
3x Snapcaster Mage
Instant (25)
4x Advent of the Wurm
4x Azorius Charm
2x Rewind
4x Selesnya Charm
3x Simic Charm
3x Sphinx's Revelation
2x Syncopate
3x Thought Scour
1x Supreme Verdict
Artifact (1)
1x Runechanter's Pike
Land (25)
4x Breeding Pool
1x Ghost Quarter
4x Glacial Fortress
4x Hallowed Fountain
4x Hinterland Harbor
1x Island
1x Plains
2x Sunpetal Grove
4x Temple Garden
2x Clone
1x Dissipate
3x Heroes' Reunion
2x Negate
2x Purify the Grave
1x Ray of Revelation
3x Renounce the Guilds
1x Supreme Verdict
You may notice a little less support for aggro, that is because so far I have only seen one boros aggro deck in my area and I don't think it's fast enough to be called blitz. I see a bit of midrange, reanimator, and control though so I've focused my build for those slower match-ups while still being competent in the aggro matchup.
I'm thinking of a 2nd SB Runechanter's Pike. It's been performing very well and usually ending the game in 1-2 turns of entering play. I would probably side it in against the reanimator and control. I've really seen power plays like that perform very well in those slower match ups. Thoughts?
I'm still testing Purify vs Deathrite. I like that I can play Purify off a Thought Scour. On the other hand, I can pike up a Deathrite, but adding creatures (when I already have Clone) reduces the effectiveness of pike unless I remove probably Augur. It's a toss up. Thoughts?
C Kozilek C
GB Gitrog GB
G Titania G
WU Brago WU
GB MerenGB
Duel Commander Decks
UR Keranos UR
BRG Jund BRG
GR Tron GR GW Tron GW
C Eldrazi Tron (SB) C
BG Lantern Control BG
UW Control (SB) UW
In my area, a lot of the Rites decks side out their Unburial Rites in anticipation of graveyard hate, so it makes it harder to make Purify effective. This is probably meta dependent, But I've found that Deathrite is probably more useful. Even if we only get to use 2/3 abilities, it gives us a way to gain life (which is nice), and helps us accelerate, something we don't natively run. And if they don't side out Rites, it just makes exiling creatures that much more useful.
Sorry for any grammar/spelling errors, I mostly post from my tablet/smartphone.
Currently playing:
Standard:
UBRControl
Commander:
White Makes Right (Mikaeus, The Lunarch)
Izzet Fun Yet? (Jhoira of the Ghitu)
The Perfect Storm (Jeleva, Nephalia's Scourge)
Dead Grave Walking (Skullbriar, the Walking Grave)
How Could You Be So Heartless? (Heartless Hidetsugu)
If the description of your meta is accurate I would consider the second pike main. Pike is really only bad against aggro and in my playing I've always wanted two against both mid and control
As for cavern, the deck only runs 4x counterspells main and never sides counters in against cavern-using decks. So typically your solutions come from other spells anyway.
C Kozilek C
GB Gitrog GB
G Titania G
WU Brago WU
GB MerenGB
Duel Commander Decks
UR Keranos UR
BRG Jund BRG
GR Tron GR GW Tron GW
C Eldrazi Tron (SB) C
BG Lantern Control BG
UW Control (SB) UW
It's not that it's impossible to beat, but we aren't a deck that goes under it in terms of aggro, we aren't a deck that goes over it in terms of late game control (we have no lifegain outside of rev so we can't just ignore it unlike a bant control deck) and we have no good single card answers to it in the form of a big flying threat (hellkite, aristocrat), or a blocker that interracts favourably with it (reckoner).
idk, i like the archetype, but being weak to the second most popular creature in the format doesn't seem like a good place to be really. I'm pretty sure this is why the deck is putting up almost no numbers on mtgo.
The MTGO meta is its own and isnt indictive of the rea live meta at all. Aggro is far more prevalent and push in MTGO
Bant Flash, Skyler Stewart, 2013 Spring States - Utah, 5th - 8th, 5/21/2013
Bant Flash, Matt Oldaker, 2013 Spring States - West Virginia, 2nd, 5/21/2013
Bant Flash, William Rosario, 2013 Spring States - Delaware, 1st, 5/20/2013
Bant Flash, Andy Schott, 2013 Spring States - Florida, 5th - 8th, 5/20/2013
Bant Flash, Sean Collins, 2013 Spring States - Oregon, 2nd, 5/19/2013
Bant Flash, Grant Little, 2013 Spring States - Nebraska, 2nd, 5/19/2013
Bant Flash, Zachery Byrd, 2013 StarCity Open Standard - Charlotte - 5/11, 5th - 8th, 5/13/2013
Bant Flash, Joey Emmert, 2013 StarCity Open Standard - Charlotte - 5/11, 9th - 16th, 5/13/2013
What the ninja said
C Kozilek C
GB Gitrog GB
G Titania G
WU Brago WU
GB MerenGB
Duel Commander Decks
UR Keranos UR
BRG Jund BRG
GR Tron GR GW Tron GW
C Eldrazi Tron (SB) C
BG Lantern Control BG
UW Control (SB) UW
Grixis Death's Shadow, Jund, UW Tron, Jeskai Control, Storm, Counters Company, Eldrazi Tron, Affinity, Living End, Infect, Merfolk, Dredge, Ad Nauseam, Amulet, Bogles, Eldrazi Tron, Mono U Tron, Lantern, Mardu Pyromancer
Grixis Death's Shadow, Jund, UW Tron, Jeskai Control, Storm, Counters Company, Eldrazi Tron, Affinity, Living End, Infect, Merfolk, Dredge, Ad Nauseam, Amulet, Bogles, Eldrazi Tron, Mono U Tron, Lantern, Mardu Pyromancer
So it's as follows:
3x Centaur healer
3x Thragtusk
2x Rhox Faithmender
1x Trostani, Selesnya's Voice
3x Terminus
1 Supreme Verdict
2x Curse of Echoes
Decks:
Standard:
Nope
Modern:
Mono-Green Nykthos
Gifts Tron
Melira Pod
Legacy:
Maverick (retired)
4 Glacial Fortress
4 Breeding Pool
3 Hinterland Harbor
3 Temple Garden
3 Sunpetal Grove
1 Forest
2 Island
1 Ghost Quarter
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Restoration Angel
3 Augur of Bolas
4 Advent of the Wurm
3 Thought Scour
1 Rewind
2 Syncopate
1 Dissipate
4 Azorius Charm
2 Selesnya Charm
3 Unsummon
1 Renounce the Guilds
3 Sphinx's Revelation
1 Runechanter's Pike
2 Negate
2 Purify the Grave
2 Clone
1 Renounce the Guilds
1 Selesnya Charm
2 Heroes' Reunion
1 Curse of Echoes
2 Terminus
1 Ray of Revelation
I am normally an Esper Control player who in the last few months made the switch to UWR Flash which ultimately lead to UWR Tempo Midrange. I liked the deck and had a lot of success but really loved this deck list both playing against it and watching it on Starcity etc.
Any tips are welcome, going to play a few more weeks in tourneys and some TCG events and IQ Qualifiers etc in the local area before I report anything back or any theory.
What you have:
-Terminus. This is a toss-up. The downside is that you may end up having to tap out on your turn to cast this. The upside is you can cast this off an Azorius Charm/Thought Scour draw during your opponent's turn. Risky with Sphinx's Revelation.
- Curse of Echoes. Another toss-up. It really depends on the meta you're going into. Personally I never had any luck with this, but it may be different for others so I will hold my judgement until you give us your feedback on it.
- Jace, Memory Adept. Good in control, not so good in flash. We seldom want to tap out on our turn and this guy just doesn't seem worth it. You can't dig for it with Augur either, it will just end up on the bottom of your library when you hit it. What was your reason for including him?
What you don't have:
Ray of Revelation: There are several enchantments that hurt us... a lot. Nevermore, Curse of Echoes, and the Bant Hexproof deck in general are difficult for us to deal with. Nevermore naming Advent of the Wurm without running a Runechanter's Pike can ruin our day. Curse of Echoes copies our... almost everything including Sphinx's Revelation, counters, and Advent of the Wurm. Bant Hexproof is very resilient to our charms and Unsummons.
Runechanter's Pike (main or side depending on meta): Without this we pretty much rely on Advent of the Wurm and Restoration Angel to bring home the bacon mmm bacon! It also allows our other creatures to become threats (Augur, Snapcaster, knight token), thus giving us a well-rounded balance of threats. Also scary on wurm or angel
C Kozilek C
GB Gitrog GB
G Titania G
WU Brago WU
GB MerenGB
Duel Commander Decks
UR Keranos UR
BRG Jund BRG
GR Tron GR GW Tron GW
C Eldrazi Tron (SB) C
BG Lantern Control BG
UW Control (SB) UW
Okay I changed up the list a bit to meet a halfway point of two decision I was making with the deck. Going up to 3 augurs, down to 3 thought scours and adding 1 Pike for a Supreme Verdict Main board.
The reason I put in Jace, Memory Adept, was from my time with UWR Midrange Tempo deck which plays a lot like this deck, Jace was amazing to drop on 5 against Jund or something after countering turn 4/5 thrag/huntsmaster etc. I would generally either Rewind/Angel into turn 5 Jace or just straight Dissipate, Turn 5, Jace into Turn 6 reckonor/Supreme etc.
I figured a Rewinded/wurm on 4 into turn 5 jace was pretty backbreaking for them plus the psuedo thought scour card advantage on the plus+1 would work well with Snap and Pike. If you're telling me it doesn't seem to fit I will probably shy away but still sneak it into the sideboard for some events to test it depending on the store I go to in my area.
As far as Curse of Echoes when I played UWR Tempo I played this deck a lot (Bant Flash) Resolving Curse of Echoes was just GG against it. It is also pretty GG against the UWR deck (I was playing) and Control decks. A decent number of players locally are playing the Bant Flash and UWR Flash Variants as well as the decent stream of Control Shells. Which is the main reason I kept it as a 1 of. It may not fit this style of deck because in my UWR deck I could threaten turn 5/6 Thundermaw/Aurelia and then when they tap out to deal with that, I would then drop Curse on the following turn. Maybe with the lack of snap threats in this deck (aka Hasted/Cavern guy) it may not fit. I shall test.
As for Jace, if it is working well for you, by no means remove it. Its just my preference of very rarely ever tapping out on my turn for anything unless my opponent gives me a reason to (ex. Voice) or an opportunity for something like pike/augur/verdict.
C Kozilek C
GB Gitrog GB
G Titania G
WU Brago WU
GB MerenGB
Duel Commander Decks
UR Keranos UR
BRG Jund BRG
GR Tron GR GW Tron GW
C Eldrazi Tron (SB) C
BG Lantern Control BG
UW Control (SB) UW
Yep Yep, Figured as much. I will keep it out until I find a slack sideboard card aka if Terminus doesn't help I will add 1 Jace and 1 Verdict etc.
I've played with x2 feeling of dread in the sb and I would have to agree its pretty effective agaisnt aggro.
It's a good card against aggro but in a deck that doesn't play 4 + sweepers its primary purpose is often never utilized to the fullest.
The idea is too stall the board for 2/3 turns or so and augur to one of your 4 verdicts. At least that's how the card started seeing a rise in Esper Decks pre GTC/DGM/Reanimator Take over.
While it is possible to execute this play with 2 verdicts and 2 Feeling of Dread after Sideboard, the number density is just not there. While it is not a bad plan, it just isn't a stable one.
I guess one upside is that against Bant Hexproof, Heroes's Reunion has the advantage of being able to stall damage from hexproof creatures. That's why I run it.
But if you don't see much hexproof, it seems Feeling of Dread has more advantages.
EDIT: I've also been considering trying Fog over Heroes' Reunion. Thoughts? It's like Psychobabble said, could save you more life and is easier to snap back.
C Kozilek C
GB Gitrog GB
G Titania G
WU Brago WU
GB MerenGB
Duel Commander Decks
UR Keranos UR
BRG Jund BRG
GR Tron GR GW Tron GW
C Eldrazi Tron (SB) C
BG Lantern Control BG
UW Control (SB) UW
Lets use Naya Humans as an example
Our Deck is on the play:
A= Heroes' Reunion
B= Feeling of Dread
Turn 2:
they get a 3/3 Champion Mauler and BTE.
They Swing 7
A) You Heroes Reunion for 7 = 0 effective Damage.
B) You Feeling of Dread = 2 effective Damage.
A = 20
B= 18
Turn 3
They Drop SilverBlade Bound with 4/4 Champion
A) You Selesyna Charm Block the Mauler and Unsummon The Champion Effective Damage = 2
B) You Feeling of Dread The Mauler and Bte and Unsummon the Champion Effective Damage = 0
A= 18
B= 18
Seems Pretty Straightforward comes down to preference really.
Now Lets look at Naya Humans on the play
Turn 2
Swing 7
A) Unsummon Champion Take 4
B) Unsummon Champion Take 4
A=16 Hp
B=16 Hp
Turn 3
Silverblade Paladin
A) Heroes Reunion = Gain 3 Health
B) Feeling of Dread = Take 0 Damage
A= 19 HP
B= 16 Hp
Turn 4
Hellrider
A) Selesyna Charm the Mauler and Unsummon Hellrider PreCombat = Take 4 Damage or Azorius Charm and Thought Scour = Also Gaining us a card
B) Feeling of Dread and Unsummon Hellrider = Take 2 Damage
A= 15
B=14
After Turn 4 Health Totals will be
A= 15
B= 14
Boards States will be
A = Burning Tree and Silverblade ***If we chose Thought Scour we will have dug and have effectivly "Cycled" our charm.
B= Burning Tree , Mauler and Silverblade
If we assume that both A and B Hit Verdict on Turn 4
A=15 Hp
B= 14 Hp
Naya Turn 5
Hellrider Swing for 4
A= 11
B= 10
A= Now Going Into our Turn 5 we have the ability To flashback Heroes Reunion but only in Conjunction with a Snapcaster which we play as a 3/4 of. If done it will effectively gain us 7 hp and save us another 2/3 via Snapcaster Blocking.
Putting our effective health to 19/21 and our actual health at 18 We can do this on either our turn or our opponents turn.
B= Now Going into our Turn 5 we have the option of drawing another Verdict, 1 was already used so we have 2 of those left, we also have another shot of drawing our other Feeling of Dread to stall creatures up to another 2 turns.
Because our Feeling of Dreads are reactive spells we can not do anything on our turn with a hellrider and anywhere from 2 to 3 more creatures on our opponents side of the field come their turn. In almost any scenario we pass the turn holding 5 mana.
Naya Humans Turn 6 is when we have to start accounting for Searing Spears and Boros Charms which can deal us anywhere from 3 to 8 damage on turn 6
Naya Turn 6 =
Hellrider, Burning Tree and Lightning Mauler Swing
A= Take 8
B= Feeling of Dread = Take 2
A=10 Hp
B= 10 Hp
Board State =
A) Hellrider and Burning Tree
B) Hellrider Burning Tree and Lightning Mauler
Ending Notes:
Now I know this is looking at it ALL in a vacuum and as I said Magical Christmasland.
But what I have seen in my personal history and just in a theory perspective that Feeling of Dread and Heroes Reunion will close to always leave you at the same HP on their respective turns in a perfect world.
Pros of Heroes:
-Heroes will gain/loss you the same amount of effective health as Feeling of Dread will.
-Heroes allows you to effectively kill off 1 or 2 creature on your opponents board by freeing up your turn 3 . Also allows you to Azorius charm/thought scour indestructible etcs ie More Flexibility on Turn 3
- Heroes with snapcaster mage can effectively timewalk a lot of Naya Humans turn 4/5 plays it also allows you to be proactive as compared to being reactive.
Cons of Heroes Reunion:
-Requires an extra piece in Snapcaster Mage and Thought Scour Combos on Turn 3
-Does not fully protect against Hellrider or Silverblade Paladin
Pros of Feeling of Dread:
-Allows you to stop hasted creatures such as Hellrider to avoid ping damage effectively timewalking their turn 4 play.
-Can be Flashbacked on its own ie Requires Less Pieces
Cons of Feeling of Dread:
-Does not effectively Protect against Burn spells ie Searing Spear/Boros Charm
-Is a reactive spell and is not proactive
-Effectively negates damage and attacks but does not actually remove any creature.
-Relies more on Verdict in Comparison