Call me traditional, but should we really be basing a lynch off "Please confirm via PM"? Even if Megiddo is scum, I'd rather nail him with something a little more tangible.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Call me traditional, but should we really be basing a lynch off "Please confirm via PM"? Even if Megiddo is scum, I'd rather nail him with something a little more tangible.
It's the fact that Meg said he'd be speculating to say if the town pm had that line.
False claims being provided seems likely given the freedom to quote role PMs, so this claim should be treated like any other vanilla claim. I still think Sir Karn isn't a good lynch though.
Call me traditional, but should we really be basing a lynch off "Please confirm via PM"? Even if Megiddo is scum, I'd rather nail him with something a little more tangible.
What are you trying to say with these two posts? They seem to be going in different directions.
I had an inkling after the "please confirm" thing (which I still think is valid); it was solidified by his interactions with Megiddo just now. Simply put, the vote doesn't make sense except from a player who's totally blind with OMGUS-fever, which (a) suggests a lack of calculation one would expect of a scum mindset, and (b) especially seems inconsistent with him faking a townie PM based on the first post. (And there's nothing in that post to suggest he should expect every role to have the "please confirm" part, either.)
Admittedly, he could have been given a full fake PM from the mod, but barring that I think it's reasonable to conclude Karn is just foolish.
@Wheat: Do the scum have fake PMs? I don't think we get an unfair advantage by knowing the answer to that question.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
False claims being provided seems likely given the freedom to quote role PMs, so this claim should be treated like any other vanilla claim. I still think Sir Karn isn't a good lynch though.
Call me traditional, but should we really be basing a lynch off "Please confirm via PM"? Even if Megiddo is scum, I'd rather nail him with something a little more tangible.
What are you trying to say with these two posts? They seem to be going in different directions.
I'm saying that it's likely the scum were given false PMs to quote for claiming. In light of that, we can't depend on role speculation to solve our problems. Karn should be treated like any other vanilla role claim. That said, I don't want to lynch him.
Following the same logic, I don't think we can use role speculation to lynch Megiddo either. This game is going to take traditional behavioral analysis to crack open, as a Basic should be.
To elaborate more on Arian: He's just lazily trying to hop onto the biggest wagon to try and get through the Day without much effort. Hence why he can't even explain why his vote is there.
This is why the Karn wagon is bad. As plagued by brevity as this post is, it reads as good faith scum-hunting (coincidentally a read of Sihhe that matches my own).
Saying "I'm town" isn't going to change your opinion of me. I want to know your thought process / reasoning.
It's not about my opinion. The strongest argument you could make is to say you have empirical evidence to the effect that I'm wrong, i.e. you're a townie. That's the first thing a townie would say. Asking "What is your reasoning behind this?" is a dodge. Why do you care what my reasoning is if I'm wrong? That's like checking the citations on a treatise on UFO abductions.
My strongest argument is to just say "I'm town"? ****, this Mafia thing is much easier than I thought it was.
Xyre, you never got back to this topic.
Are you saying that if I would have just said "I'm town. You're wrong." you would have dropped the subject and unvoted me? That's what it sounds like you're trying to say, and that's awful play if you really believe that.
Not quite. It's possible a scum would recognize that argument and make it, and I'd have to consider both possibilities.
My point is a townie definitely would NOT have posted what you did. My argument hinged on an absolutist notion - "townies would never do X". The easiest way to disprove that, of course, is to be a townie doing X. And a townie doing X would say so.
Xyre, this doesn't follow. You're creating a case without a logical foundation.
Let's play this out:
--> Player takes an action that "no townie would ever do"
--> They are town or they are not.
--> The way for a town player to prove they are town is by responding with a tautology "I am town" and have their role be town
--> According to your description of the scenario, the only way for a town player to respond to your case is for you to already know that they are town.
Why are you backing off (per your posts #189 and #211) of a case on a player when you have established that they can only make a compelling case to scum and/or a cop (people who already know their alignment)?
I had an inkling after the "please confirm" thing (which I still think is valid); it was solidified by his interactions with Megiddo just now. Simply put, the vote doesn't make sense except from a player who's totally blind with OMGUS-fever, which (a) suggests a lack of calculation one would expect of a scum mindset, and (b) especially seems inconsistent with him faking a townie PM based on the first post. (And there's nothing in that post to suggest he should expect every role to have the "please confirm" part, either.)
Admittedly, he could have been given a full fake PM from the mod, but barring that I think it's reasonable to conclude Karn is just foolish.
@Wheat: Do the scum have fake PMs? I don't think we get an unfair advantage by knowing the answer to that question.
I don't buy the role claim analysis. Don't get me wrong, I think Karn is town (albeit somewhat fumbling town), but I don't see any reasonable way that a false role claim would be identifiable by not having that clause. (Or are you saying scum wouldn't need to confirm? :confused:)
Like, if some player's PMs (or false PMs) exclude that clause, I have to think it would have been caught in review enough to not totally blow open the game by mass claim on Day 1 --> lynch all roles that didn't need to confirm. Which means that it would at the very least include some town players, but more likely wouldn't be the case at all, since intentionally bad scum falseclaims in a full-quoting game feels really bastardy for a basic.
I'm just gonna kinda leave the set-up analysis there. Most of that was "it doesn't make sense to be gaming the set-up", but still.
False claims being provided seems likely given the freedom to quote role PMs, so this claim should be treated like any other vanilla claim. I still think Sir Karn isn't a good lynch though.
Call me traditional, but should we really be basing a lynch off "Please confirm via PM"? Even if Megiddo is scum, I'd rather nail him with something a little more tangible.
What are you trying to say with these two posts? They seem to be going in different directions.
I'm saying that it's likely the scum were given false PMs to quote for claiming. In light of that, we can't depend on role speculation to solve our problems. Karn should be treated like any other vanilla role claim. That said, I don't want to lynch him.
Following the same logic, I don't think we can use role speculation to lynch Megiddo either. This game is going to take traditional behavioral analysis to crack open, as a Basic should be.
Just got to say, you've definitely earned distinction as an MTGS hero
Quote from Stardust »
Because he's the hero MTGS deserves, and the one it needs right now. So we'll global him. Because he can take it. Because he's not just our hero. He's a silent guardian, a watchful protector. An expired rascal.
Quote from LuckNorris »
ExpiredRascals you sir are a god-like hero.
Quote from Lanxal »
ER is a masterful god who cannot be beaten in any endeavour.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I generally use Arianrhod there was as well -- I think my phone is retarded and still uses SilverSihhe, but otherwise I changed that when I aligned all of my online forum user-names. Why do you ask?
@Megiddo, I probably should have unvoted Karn when I acknowledged that I wasn't going to do the meta research. My gut still said he's scum, though, and I elected to leave my vote on there as a wait-and-see. If that makes me scum in your book, then I can live with that.
That said, Unvote. Karn looks befuddled, but it appears genuine. Guess my gut is off =/
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I don't think being bad at the game constitutes a tell either way.
@ER: I also believe Sir Karn is trying his best; unless his scum and town metas are nearly identical (if anyone could provide examples of both I would appreciate that) since I'm going off only half of a game of experience which I can't even use to justify my thoughts.
maybe the false claims had that line and the real PMs didn't
This is either a slip or an attempt to get a slip in reaction. Unfortunately it's impossible to tell, but based on Meggido's posting so far I hardly believe it's a slip but a peculiar post nonetheless. Unfortunately Karn is falling for it all over the place.
1: I don't dislike your posts or think OMGUS, they just give me chills. Non-game related kinda, hence them being above the first set of dashes with the road test comment.
Any reason why?
Quote from JeY k »
2:I weighed my options and said that I don't quite have enough info to make a heartfelt decision, however I am still suspicious of you regardless. The three you initially pegged as scum all flipping would shed insight on your alignment. It's not that I dislike your posts, I just can't help but raise an eyebrow, but I can't justify anything about Sir Karn.
So...you want you, Karn, and ER dead?
Because your Iso/Batman/Snugglebutt von Penispoker. I don't know.
I never said anything about wanting them dead; it was a just a comment. I'm seriously wondering what information you could possibly be after asking me these questions. I feel like you're looking for me to give you an easy way to get me lynched based on nonsense questions; this point being void if you explain a decent thought process of course.
Xyre, this doesn't follow. You're creating a case without a logical foundation.
Let's play this out:
--> Player takes an action that "no townie would ever do"
--> They are town or they are not.
--> The way for a town player to prove they are town is by responding with a tautology "I am town" and have their role be town
--> According to your description of the scenario, the only way for a town player to respond to your case is for you to already know that they are town.
Why are you backing off (per your posts #189 and #211) of a case on a player when you have established that they can only make a compelling case to scum and/or a cop (people who already know their alignment)?
I don't need to know he's town. What I'm saying is his reaction is one I would expect a townie not to have. Which isn't to say I would have completely believed him had he said "I'm a townie", but it would have been a more genuine response than what he posted, and that would have given me pause.
But I suppose I was wrong about what townies will or won't say. Karn's recent posts (that moment where he lashed out at Megiddo shortly before I unvoted him) suggested less a player overreacting to being outed early as a scum (which would put anyone on tilt) and more a player who just overreacts to anything, or who has elevated his tiff with Megiddo to mortal grudge, which casts his previous behavior in a different light - one that indicates he's probably just a weak player.
I don't buy the role claim analysis. Don't get me wrong, I think Karn is town (albeit somewhat fumbling town), but I don't see any reasonable way that a false role claim would be identifiable by not having that clause. (Or are you saying scum wouldn't need to confirm? :confused:)
Like, if some player's PMs (or false PMs) exclude that clause, I have to think it would have been caught in review enough to not totally blow open the game by mass claim on Day 1 --> lynch all roles that didn't need to confirm. Which means that it would at the very least include some town players, but more likely wouldn't be the case at all, since intentionally bad scum falseclaims in a full-quoting game feels really bastardy for a basic.
I'm just gonna kinda leave the set-up analysis there. Most of that was "it doesn't make sense to be gaming the set-up", but still.
The main reason sample PMs are given in the first posts of games is to give the mafia something they can use to create their false claims - so they now exactly what a real PM looks like and can mimic its formatting/style/etc. The first post's PM doesn't have that clause that is in every player's PM, but is a detail that could be overlooked or explained away - maybe only the scum need to confirm via PM for... whatever reason. Or maybe only my PM has it and the mod overlooked that detail. etc. A clever player would include it, but a weak player might miss that detail in assembling his/her fake.
Since I don't think Karn is clever (as noted above), I don't think he would have had the presence of mind to include something the mod didn't indicate was important to include.
I don't remember ever reading a game with townKarn in it. But Karn was scum in The Legend of Lucian. And I'm not saying him being bad means he's town or scum. I'm saying that I can't write his actions off as any particular alignment due to his level of play - it's based on his behavior and motive.
Why is it unfortunate that Karn is "falling for it all over the place"? What if Karn is scum?
Your response to my question as to why you feel chills from my posts is unsatisfactory.
The information I am trying to garner from asking you these questions is clearly related to your mindset, and an attempt to follow your thought process. The fact that your instant reaction to being questioned is to become hyper-defensive and attempt to flip my questioning around on me does not speak well of you.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
@Megiddo, I probably should have unvoted Karn when I acknowledged that I wasn't going to do the meta research. My gut still said he's scum, though, and I elected to leave my vote on there as a wait-and-see. If that makes me scum in your book, then I can live with that.
That said, Unvote. Karn looks befuddled, but it appears genuine. Guess my gut is off =/
This whole role PM discussion makes my head spin.
This feels wholly inauthentic; it reads like a scum trying to give a decent reason to get off the Karn wagon now that the momentum's shifting and only coming up with vagueries.
I don't remember ever reading a game with townKarn in it. But Karn was scum in The Legend of Lucian. And I'm not saying him being bad means he's town or scum. I'm saying that I can't write his actions off as any particular alignment due to his level of play - it's based on his behavior and motive.
Why is it unfortunate that Karn is "falling for it all over the place"? What if Karn is scum?
Karn's PoV; regardless of town or scum he would consider it bad for him. Bad phrasing I suppose, as I meant something like "Unfortunately for Karn". While I still believe he's town, that may not be so true when I'm not so suspicious of you anymore.
The information I am trying to garner from asking you these questions is clearly related to your mindset, and an attempt to follow your thought process. The fact that your instant reaction to being questioned is to become hyper-defensive and attempt to flip my questioning around on me does not speak well of you.
Cool! Just what I wanted really. Less suspicious overall now =) I suppose I have some really bad mafia habits I need to work on fleshing out over time but there's nothing malicious about this line of text at all.
I also forgot to address 'flip questioning' as I meant to do. It was a bit of a reversal to understand the same exact things (thought process etc) about you and a bit of a reaction gauge, to which everything from you flowed naturally.
@Megiddo, I probably should have unvoted Karn when I acknowledged that I wasn't going to do the meta research. My gut still said he's scum, though, and I elected to leave my vote on there as a wait-and-see. If that makes me scum in your book, then I can live with that.
That said, Unvote. Karn looks befuddled, but it appears genuine. Guess my gut is off =/
This whole role PM discussion makes my head spin.
This feels wholly inauthentic; it reads like a scum trying to give a decent reason to get off the Karn wagon now that the momentum's shifting and only coming up with vagueries.
Which you would be saying if I had unvoted immediately, regardless. One thing I -have- learned in seven games is that bad votes happen, and attempting to justify them only makes it worse. If you think I'm scum because of that vote, then I can't help that. I can change your mind with time, but if you think I'm going to fall backwards over myself because I made a mistake, you'll be mistaken.
I do like your line of questioning, though -- feels very townie to me, unlike your reactions to the Karn wagon in the first place.
False claims being provided seems likely given the freedom to quote role PMs, so this claim should be treated like any other vanilla claim. I still think Sir Karn isn't a good lynch though.
Call me traditional, but should we really be basing a lynch off "Please confirm via PM"? Even if Megiddo is scum, I'd rather nail him with something a little more tangible.
What are you trying to say with these two posts? They seem to be going in different directions.
I'm saying that it's likely the scum were given false PMs to quote for claiming. In light of that, we can't depend on role speculation to solve our problems. Karn should be treated like any other vanilla role claim. That said, I don't want to lynch him.
Following the same logic, I don't think we can use role speculation to lynch Megiddo either. This game is going to take traditional behavioral analysis to crack open, as a Basic should be.
How is this contradictory?
I find it weird how your tone seems to imply that you are "ok with lynching Karn for other reasons" but you state outright "I don't want to lynch him". Overall, it reads strongly of Nis(scum)'s reaction to Asenion(town)'s explanation for voting me day 1 of Mafia Redux 2. He attacked Asenion's reasons and told Asenion to find better reasons.
@Megiddo, I probably should have unvoted Karn when I acknowledged that I wasn't going to do the meta research. My gut still said he's scum, though, and I elected to leave my vote on there as a wait-and-see. If that makes me scum in your book, then I can live with that.
That said, Unvote. Karn looks befuddled, but it appears genuine. Guess my gut is off =/
This whole role PM discussion makes my head spin.
This feels wholly inauthentic; it reads like a scum trying to give a decent reason to get off the Karn wagon now that the momentum's shifting and only coming up with vagueries.
I agree.
@whoever asked:
I've been in once game with AGod, in which he replaced out.
@JeY:
You admit the possibility that Meg could have slipped, but then say I'm falling all over the place for his 'trap'. Why do you think I'm falling for a trap if you think it's possible that it was a legitimate slip?
Does anyone else not understand why town! Meg would refuse to answer my questions multiple times?
False claims being provided seems likely given the freedom to quote role PMs, so this claim should be treated like any other vanilla claim. I still think Sir Karn isn't a good lynch though.
Call me traditional, but should we really be basing a lynch off "Please confirm via PM"? Even if Megiddo is scum, I'd rather nail him with something a little more tangible.
What are you trying to say with these two posts? They seem to be going in different directions.
I'm saying that it's likely the scum were given false PMs to quote for claiming. In light of that, we can't depend on role speculation to solve our problems. Karn should be treated like any other vanilla role claim. That said, I don't want to lynch him.
Following the same logic, I don't think we can use role speculation to lynch Megiddo either. This game is going to take traditional behavioral analysis to crack open, as a Basic should be.
How is this contradictory?
I find it weird how your tone seems to imply that you are "ok with lynching Karn for other reasons" but you state outright "I don't want to lynch him". Overall, it reads strongly of Nis(scum)'s reaction to Asenion(town)'s explanation for voting me day 1 of Mafia Redux 2. He attacked Asenion's reasons and told Asenion to find better reasons.
The problem with this is that I'm Zionite, not Nis. And these are bad reasons to base a lynch on.
I never said nor implied that I'm okay with lynching Karn. Please show me where this happened.
The point I'm trying to make is that the "implied" part you're reading is canceled by the frank statement that I'm not willing to lynch him. That's the whole reason it's there.
And we are talking about Karn, right? Because the Megiddo topic is quoted as well as part of the "contradiction", but you didn't follow up on it.
@Iso:
I've likely read a page here or there in my random browsings, but I definitely haven't read the whole game and I can't recall anything about the game.
Just got to say, you've definitely earned distinction as an MTGS hero
Quote from Stardust »
Because he's the hero MTGS deserves, and the one it needs right now. So we'll global him. Because he can take it. Because he's not just our hero. He's a silent guardian, a watchful protector. An expired rascal.
Quote from LuckNorris »
ExpiredRascals you sir are a god-like hero.
Quote from Lanxal »
ER is a masterful god who cannot be beaten in any endeavour.
The point I'm trying to make is that the "implied" part you're reading is canceled by the frank statement that I'm not willing to lynch him. That's the whole reason it's there.
And we are talking about Karn, right? Because the Megiddo topic is quoted as well as part of the "contradiction", but you didn't follow up on it.
Oh wow, I thought both were about Karn for some reason. That explains why it seemed weird.
@Iso:
I've likely read a page here or there in my random browsings, but I definitely haven't read the whole game and I can't recall anything about the game.
Why?
Quote from Lanxal »
Also, plaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaanes.
Did you read the scumchat? Yes or no will suffice.
I feel weird about Jey's response but can't quantify why.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Just got to say, you've definitely earned distinction as an MTGS hero
Quote from Stardust »
Because he's the hero MTGS deserves, and the one it needs right now. So we'll global him. Because he can take it. Because he's not just our hero. He's a silent guardian, a watchful protector. An expired rascal.
Quote from LuckNorris »
ExpiredRascals you sir are a god-like hero.
Quote from Lanxal »
ER is a masterful god who cannot be beaten in any endeavour.
So, the reason I was asking you about reading Ataghan, ER, was because I thought I had both you and Silver/Arian in a "gotcha" because it was strange to me that you would call him "Silver" over "Arian" given that I don't recall you ever interacting with him before this game, which was explainable by Arian possibly still using the name SilverSihhe in QuickTopic (which he said he did when he was on his phone). Of course, it occurred to me through the questioning process that such knowledge would be explainable through other reasons, including the initial "did you read Ataghan?" question.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
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Answer the question.
not interested in speculating on PM formatting, since it's a rabbit hole I don't want to go down.
You wouldn't have to speculate if you were town.
Vote Megiddo
Let's lynch Karn.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
It's the fact that Meg said he'd be speculating to say if the town pm had that line.
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
This isn't really a valid argument, Xyre.
What are you trying to say with these two posts? They seem to be going in different directions.
Admittedly, he could have been given a full fake PM from the mod, but barring that I think it's reasonable to conclude Karn is just foolish.
@Wheat: Do the scum have fake PMs? I don't think we get an unfair advantage by knowing the answer to that question.
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I'm saying that it's likely the scum were given false PMs to quote for claiming. In light of that, we can't depend on role speculation to solve our problems. Karn should be treated like any other vanilla role claim. That said, I don't want to lynch him.
Following the same logic, I don't think we can use role speculation to lynch Megiddo either. This game is going to take traditional behavioral analysis to crack open, as a Basic should be.
How is this contradictory?
Agreed.
Megiddo has the right of it. Lanxal ended up doing an incredibly amusing parallel retelling of KS as he played through. Expect small snippets as we go
They won't always be able to be on-point though, so don't read too much into them.
This is why the Karn wagon is bad. As plagued by brevity as this post is, it reads as good faith scum-hunting (coincidentally a read of Sihhe that matches my own).
Xyre, this doesn't follow. You're creating a case without a logical foundation.
Let's play this out:
--> Player takes an action that "no townie would ever do"
--> They are town or they are not.
--> The way for a town player to prove they are town is by responding with a tautology "I am town" and have their role be town
--> According to your description of the scenario, the only way for a town player to respond to your case is for you to already know that they are town.
Why are you backing off (per your posts #189 and #211) of a case on a player when you have established that they can only make a compelling case to scum and/or a cop (people who already know their alignment)?
Let's not.
I don't buy the role claim analysis. Don't get me wrong, I think Karn is town (albeit somewhat fumbling town), but I don't see any reasonable way that a false role claim would be identifiable by not having that clause. (Or are you saying scum wouldn't need to confirm? :confused:)
Like, if some player's PMs (or false PMs) exclude that clause, I have to think it would have been caught in review enough to not totally blow open the game by mass claim on Day 1 --> lynch all roles that didn't need to confirm. Which means that it would at the very least include some town players, but more likely wouldn't be the case at all, since intentionally bad scum falseclaims in a full-quoting game feels really bastardy for a basic.
I'm just gonna kinda leave the set-up analysis there. Most of that was "it doesn't make sense to be gaming the set-up", but still.
I forgot why I had this quoted.
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oh karn
this is probably the extend of my contributions for today given that I need to put a bunch of time into my other two games.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I generally use Arianrhod there was as well -- I think my phone is retarded and still uses SilverSihhe, but otherwise I changed that when I aligned all of my online forum user-names. Why do you ask?
@Megiddo, I probably should have unvoted Karn when I acknowledged that I wasn't going to do the meta research. My gut still said he's scum, though, and I elected to leave my vote on there as a wait-and-see. If that makes me scum in your book, then I can live with that.
That said, Unvote. Karn looks befuddled, but it appears genuine. Guess my gut is off =/
This whole role PM discussion makes my head spin.
@Karn, have you ever played with AGod before?
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Thank you for this.
Care to explain?
I don't think being bad at the game constitutes a tell either way.
@ER: I also believe Sir Karn is trying his best; unless his scum and town metas are nearly identical (if anyone could provide examples of both I would appreciate that) since I'm going off only half of a game of experience which I can't even use to justify my thoughts.
---
This is either a slip or an attempt to get a slip in reaction. Unfortunately it's impossible to tell, but based on Meggido's posting so far I hardly believe it's a slip but a peculiar post nonetheless. Unfortunately Karn is falling for it all over the place.
Because your Iso/Batman/Snugglebutt von Penispoker. I don't know.
I never said anything about wanting them dead; it was a just a comment. I'm seriously wondering what information you could possibly be after asking me these questions. I feel like you're looking for me to give you an easy way to get me lynched based on nonsense questions; this point being void if you explain a decent thought process of course.
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I don't need to know he's town. What I'm saying is his reaction is one I would expect a townie not to have. Which isn't to say I would have completely believed him had he said "I'm a townie", but it would have been a more genuine response than what he posted, and that would have given me pause.
But I suppose I was wrong about what townies will or won't say. Karn's recent posts (that moment where he lashed out at Megiddo shortly before I unvoted him) suggested less a player overreacting to being outed early as a scum (which would put anyone on tilt) and more a player who just overreacts to anything, or who has elevated his tiff with Megiddo to mortal grudge, which casts his previous behavior in a different light - one that indicates he's probably just a weak player.
The main reason sample PMs are given in the first posts of games is to give the mafia something they can use to create their false claims - so they now exactly what a real PM looks like and can mimic its formatting/style/etc. The first post's PM doesn't have that clause that is in every player's PM, but is a detail that could be overlooked or explained away - maybe only the scum need to confirm via PM for... whatever reason. Or maybe only my PM has it and the mod overlooked that detail. etc. A clever player would include it, but a weak player might miss that detail in assembling his/her fake.
Since I don't think Karn is clever (as noted above), I don't think he would have had the presence of mind to include something the mod didn't indicate was important to include.
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
Why is it unfortunate that Karn is "falling for it all over the place"? What if Karn is scum?
Your response to my question as to why you feel chills from my posts is unsatisfactory.
The information I am trying to garner from asking you these questions is clearly related to your mindset, and an attempt to follow your thought process. The fact that your instant reaction to being questioned is to become hyper-defensive and attempt to flip my questioning around on me does not speak well of you.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
This feels wholly inauthentic; it reads like a scum trying to give a decent reason to get off the Karn wagon now that the momentum's shifting and only coming up with vagueries.
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
Alright, I'll give you that one.
Karn's PoV; regardless of town or scum he would consider it bad for him. Bad phrasing I suppose, as I meant something like "Unfortunately for Karn". While I still believe he's town, that may not be so true when I'm not so suspicious of you anymore.
Oh well. I was never too terrific in bed anyway.
Cool! Just what I wanted really. Less suspicious overall now =) I suppose I have some really bad mafia habits I need to work on fleshing out over time but there's nothing malicious about this line of text at all.
no, I still don't agree with Karn.
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Which you would be saying if I had unvoted immediately, regardless. One thing I -have- learned in seven games is that bad votes happen, and attempting to justify them only makes it worse. If you think I'm scum because of that vote, then I can't help that. I can change your mind with time, but if you think I'm going to fall backwards over myself because I made a mistake, you'll be mistaken.
I do like your line of questioning, though -- feels very townie to me, unlike your reactions to the Karn wagon in the first place.
I find it weird how your tone seems to imply that you are "ok with lynching Karn for other reasons" but you state outright "I don't want to lynch him". Overall, it reads strongly of Nis(scum)'s reaction to Asenion(town)'s explanation for voting me day 1 of Mafia Redux 2. He attacked Asenion's reasons and told Asenion to find better reasons.
I agree.
@whoever asked:
I've been in once game with AGod, in which he replaced out.
@JeY:
You admit the possibility that Meg could have slipped, but then say I'm falling all over the place for his 'trap'. Why do you think I'm falling for a trap if you think it's possible that it was a legitimate slip?
Does anyone else not understand why town! Meg would refuse to answer my questions multiple times?
The problem with this is that I'm Zionite, not Nis. And these are bad reasons to base a lynch on.
I never said nor implied that I'm okay with lynching Karn. Please show me where this happened.
The point I'm trying to make is that the "implied" part you're reading is canceled by the frank statement that I'm not willing to lynch him. That's the whole reason it's there.
And we are talking about Karn, right? Because the Megiddo topic is quoted as well as part of the "contradiction", but you didn't follow up on it.
I've likely read a page here or there in my random browsings, but I definitely haven't read the whole game and I can't recall anything about the game.
Why?
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Oh wow, I thought both were about Karn for some reason. That explains why it seemed weird.
X captures Australia, while white gammons the knight. The boot activated the mouse trap, preventing the trade of a brick for a sheep.
Most of you eventually come to your senses and go back to finding the spies.
Most.
JeY K (1) - Ghosting
Xyre (2) - Zionite, JeY K
Megiddo (4) - ExpiredRascals, AtheistGod, Voxxicus, Megiddo
Sir Karn (3) - Iso, Xyre, Megiddo
Not Voting (5) - pikachugundam, Ghosting, Zionite, Xyre, Arianrhod
With 12 alive, it is 7 to lynch!
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
Whoops, forgot to take off most of the names of the unvoters. Let's scratch that votecount and use this one instead.
Xyre (1) - JeY K
Megiddo (4) - ExpiredRascals, AtheistGod, Voxxicus, Sir Karn
Sir Karn (2) - Iso, Megiddo
Not Voting (5) - pikachugundam, Ghosting, Zionite, Xyre, Arianrhod
With 12 alive, it is 7 to lynch!
Did you read the scumchat? Yes or no will suffice.
I feel weird about Jey's response but can't quantify why.
Also, wtf? Why is Megiddo getting run up?
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I don't know if I announced this here yet but I will be V/LA until Sunday, starting tomorrow.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
unvote.
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Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
No
Which response?
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So, the reason I was asking you about reading Ataghan, ER, was because I thought I had both you and Silver/Arian in a "gotcha" because it was strange to me that you would call him "Silver" over "Arian" given that I don't recall you ever interacting with him before this game, which was explainable by Arian possibly still using the name SilverSihhe in QuickTopic (which he said he did when he was on his phone). Of course, it occurred to me through the questioning process that such knowledge would be explainable through other reasons, including the initial "did you read Ataghan?" question.
So much for that.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player