What about Wrath of God or their variants? I havent tried a sweeper yet but I dont know if anyone else has (Pyroclasm doesnt count).
My early builds did, but the more I tested the more I realized they are superfluous in all but the most niche points of a duel.
Ensnaring Bridge is a catch all artifact. It is the most important thing in the deck. It is this card for why Wraths aren't needed. Pyroclasm wipes away most small creatures that get in the way until Bridge gets online.
Also Zero, sorry I haven't been around. I've updated my build because some of the ideas since I've been gone are great. Plus that new legend rule means 4 Moxes all day every day.
1. Its a creature, it will be easily taken care off without doing much.
2. It has a 2mana activation cost which means it will slow you down the rest of your game.
@Biefall
Yeah I tried some in the beginning too, specially Supreme Verdict for the uncounterability. But at 4cc you'll die to fast aggro more often than not holding it in hand. Most games I don't have more than 3 lands until after turns 6-8.
@Spage
Looks good.You gave up the dispatches for the extra bridge and 2 lands, I would cut 1 Tutor and 1 Bauble for the second needle and the 4th duress or a 3rd faithless. I am actually trying a no bauble's list and its doing good. In the SB I'd switch 2 BW with 2 Wear/Tear, things like Kataki and stoney Silence drop too early to wait for the 3rd land for beast within.
@Everyone: I recently started playing on cockatrice, love the replay function. If anyone has a tutorial on how to upload replays in here I'll gladly upload some replays instead of game pics.
Also, has anyone seen anything remotely useful in M14? I haven't seen anything worth a test so far.
EDIT: I signed up for this month's Lantern IQ. Just lost in the first round, don't want to give details on the opponent's deck as Lantern is still going. Game 1 he won due to having a really good hand (Game 1 on this matchup is about 50/50), game 2 I locked fast and went on till he conceded, game 3 I made a rookie mistake, I kept a hand with leyline only to notice in my draw step that I had NO LANDS in hand (Felt kinda stupid). I had everything else, mox, lantern, codex, pyroclasm, duress, stirrings, just not a freaking land... My next 2 draws weren't lands either and he destroyed my leyline... Sucks for being my first attempt at lantern, we'll see on the next one.
taking out the baubles may require to up the lands to 16-17. I'll keep an eye on that.
Based on both my testing results from last month, the MTGO stats I am compiling, and the results of GP Portland and GP Kansas City, you really need to maindeck that 4th Bridge. There are just so many dang creatures in this format right now that you can't justify not doing it. Twin needs to attack around it. So does Living End. So does Affinity and Burn and Zoo. So do all the Midrange decks. It's just such a live card in these matchups that you can't afford to not use it.
If I were taking this deck to a tournament, I would want to hedge my bets against the creature-based archetypes (i.e. run the 4th Bridge and lots of removal) and not worry too much about Scapeshift and Storm and other combo decks were Bridge won't be as useful.
Based on both my testing results from last month, the MTGO stats I am compiling, and the results of GP Portland and GP Kansas City, you really need to maindeck that 4th Bridge. There are just so many dang creatures in this format right now that you can't justify not doing it. Twin needs to attack around it. So does Living End. So does Affinity and Burn and Zoo. So do all the Midrange decks. It's just such a live card in these matchups that you can't afford to not use it.
If I were taking this deck to a tournament, I would want to hedge my bets against the creature-based archetypes (i.e. run the 4th Bridge and lots of removal) and not worry too much about Scapeshift and Storm and other combo decks were Bridge won't be as useful.
Seems reasonable and I could cut the dispatches back down to 3, it would also free up a slot on the SB since I wouldn't put a 4th dispatch in there.
Are those MTGO stats looking good? I'm interested, I just started playing on cockatrice and I'm trying to figure out how to get some replays on here. I have played some games on cockatrice, won every single one except the match for the lantern IQ, which made me feel stupid for keeping a no land hand, should have been an easy match otherwise.
I'm actually not missing the baubles, but I certainly miss dropping both lantern and a miller on turn 1 every now and then.
EDIT: @Everyone
I've been thinking on how to drop the combo on turn 1 and can only think of Simian Spirit Guide. To drop both pieces along with a land. It can also serve to play a combo piece and a lootings or something else turn 1 and it sort of ramps a bridge or anything. Copies can be dumped to lootings and it could serve as a chump blocker in the worst case scenario.
I just can't imagine what to cut for some of these. Anyone got an idea or are these shenanigans not worth it? Is there another way other than simian or baubles to drop a combo turn 1?
There's no real point in going to extra lengths just so we might be able to drop a combo on turn one instead of turn 2. The odds of you drawing both combo pieces in your opening hand plus other relevant stuff already isn't that great, throwing in spirit guides on the off chance that we might get to have a say on one extra draw isn't worth cutting reliable digging power or removal.
I figure that playing green feels absolutely necessary for this deck, due to Ancient Stirrings. The combo defends both the player and itself, aside from being the win condition. This means that everything else would have to be a way to get the combo online as soon as possible, and to take care of what is in the opp's opening hand. In this version there are 8 free cantrips, and 13 more cantrips along side it (counting Stirrings as a cantrip, as it replaces itself with the card you choose). This should allow the deck to be as reliable as it's going to get to have the combo online as fast as possible.
The Nodes would take out the creatures the opp does draw or get in their opening hand. Pithing Needle, Relic of Progenitus, and Nature's Claim are maindeck answers that aren't mana intensive. Sun Droplet can help turn back the clock that the opp might be able to put on us, and works great with Brushland and Canopy in multiples.
I also found an additional card for the goal, Lammastide Weave. It works as a one-time Shredder, a cantrip, and life gain, all for 1G.
For my version (irl), I'd have to give up on the Canopy, as I can't afford them, but otherwise the deck is rather affordable, and I am anxious to playtest it. For anyone else working with budget constraints, I've been using Edge of Autumn instead. I've considered Restore Balance in place of the Sun Droplet, but I'm not sure if the deck can wait that long for a wipe. It seems like it would work wonderfully, otherwise.
I figure that playing green feels absolutely necessary for this deck, due to Ancient Stirrings. The combo defends both the player and itself, aside from being the win condition. This means that everything else would have to be a way to get the combo online as soon as possible, and to take care of what is in the opp's opening hand. In this version there are 8 free cantrips, and 13 more cantrips along side it (counting Stirrings as a cantrip, as it replaces itself with the card you choose). This should allow the deck to be as reliable as it's going to get to have the combo online as fast as possible.
The Nodes would take out the creatures the opp does draw or get in their opening hand. Pithing Needle, Relic of Progenitus, and Nature's Claim are maindeck answers that aren't mana intensive. Sun Droplet can help turn back the clock that the opp might be able to put on us, and works great with Brushland and Canopy in multiples.
I also found an additional card for the goal, Lammastide Weave. It works as a one-time Shredder, a cantrip, and life gain, all for 1G.
For my version (irl), I'd have to give up on the Canopy, as I can't afford them, but otherwise the deck is rather affordable, and I am anxious to playtest it. For anyone else working with budget constraints, I've been using Edge of Autumn instead. I've considered Restore Balance in place of the Sun Droplet, but I'm not sure if the deck can wait that long for a wipe. It seems like it would work wonderfully, otherwise.
No bridge or discard? Thats interesting, I had nodes in the first list, it was good, Forbidden Orchard was tested to keep nodes alive. I'm trying to imagine how it would play and I think it will be risky trying to stabilize thorugh nodes and droplet. Do let us know how it does, some people suggested droplet from the beginning but I don't think anyone tested it.
Lammastide looks awesome, hadn't seen that card. Its a creature but it does its work upon entering the battlefield so it shouldn't be a problem to lose it after. I saw a player playing a variant of top control on cockatrice, he had 2 lingering souls main, might help you to block and keep nodes alive too. He had an interesting list with Lillianas, DRS and Lingering Souls, I got the decklist, I'll post it after I ask him if theres no problem with it.
Wouldn't Grafdigger's Cage work better than Progenitus? or are you playing that one mainly for the cantrip?
What will you do with late game unused mana? This seems like the deck to fit in Timesifter, you got little control without bridge and discard. Your plan is to drop the combo ASAP, if you could stall with nodes and droplet until you land a sifter its over.
Ya, I was wondering about that "creature" thing, too.
I couldn't think of a better all-around option other than Sun Droplet. I needed something that could help me recover from any opening hand creatures and/or burn, or for anything that happened to get by the combo. I also happened to notice how well Brushland and Horizon Canopy worked with two Sun Droplets out (life gain engine), so there was synergy with the mana fixing, early recovering, and setting up a padding of life as the game went on, just in case. Sun Droplet might seem slow, but really, you're gaining a life at every upkeep.
I playtested my build and randomly got matched up with Ad Nauseum combo and some random green build with elves and Vigor. I went 1-2 with ANC, winning the first game, but losing the 2nd and 3rd (18 cantrips in the deck and couldn't find a single Nature's Claim to take out a Leyline of Sanctity in both games). I figure that this calls for a Leyline of my own in my sideboard. He ended up winning through my Pithing Needles and Grafdigger's Cage due to EOT Hurkyl's Recall. I only started the game with the Vigor deck, as my wife had just finished dinner. I could have probably sided in all of my Relics to win the subsequent games, but had to go.
Ooohhh... Well I told you I had never payed attention to the card before, I read the text and asumed it was a creature because of the image, lol. From the beginning I have tried keeping the deck creatureless, but in this case I actually would have prefer it to be a creature and not an instant for the extra chump block. Its still a very useful card though we still need lantern before using it. You could also main some Oust and you can use Lammastide without lantern, or codex/bell as well. Oust was also in the first list, you bounce a creature to their library, let them draw and then you can mill the creature (or use lammastide) without looking at the top.
Sun Droplet looks slow, but it also stacks. Would you be able to fit some Manabarbs? You could win though that and sun droplet would regain any life lost to it, which would be minimal with so low cc cards. Its in red though, but sounds interesting. At one point I was also playing Pulse of the fields as a lifegain spell that keeps coming back to the hand, which wouldn't be a problem because you have no bridge. Saved me a couple times until I could wipe the field with nodes, and it laughs at any red deck.
Timesifter is indeed too costly, though its just 1 more mana than tezz (the wincon of choice) but the plan is to stall with droplet so you'll eventually reach 5 mana and at that moment timesifter could end the game on the spot. Otherwise the opponent might have some tricks up their sleeves before you mill them. I look at it as a guarantee, you could also play Ajani Veangant and use his +1 for control until you blow their lands. It also has a burn ability. Just giving ideas.
Deathrite Shaman is also an idea, as it has burn, lifegain, ramp, graveyard hate and it can block, its also within your colors.
I had a match last night vs Ad Nauseum, won game 1 easy, had control early and he never drew the card, game 2 I had lantern on turn 1 but Ad Nauseum was his top deck and I didn't want to waste my lantern shuffling it away, I ended up using Wear/Tear on his Phyrexian Unlife in response to Nauseum, he had to stop drawing before he could find a second simian to go off. Had it gone to game 3 I would have sided in leylines, didn't do it on game 2 because I didn't recognize the deck on game 1.
Just won a LGS tournament. Played against 2 precons, then splinter twin in the finals. I have to say, splinter twin has to be one of this deck's best matchups. Especially post-board, when I bring in my pithing needles and surgical extractions. Milling them constantly, even without the lantern, just gives me more targets for my surgical extractions.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern: UR storm
Legacy: dragon stompy
Pauper: UG madness
MTGO: big_hat
So I just playtested some on Cockatrice with a MartinMcFly. Awesome person, by the way. He was patient enough to play quite a few games and give some advice, which ended up working well for the deck. So, here's the current (budget) list that I'm running:
First, the Nodes and the Dispatch were essential, I found. Nodes are good for long term creature control, but Dispatch was absolutely necessary for instant speed removal.
zerodown: I use the Bauble as single-use Lantern 5-8. That, and they are free cantrips.
And Lammastride Weave. That single card got me so much life. I would use the Bells and Shredders to get rid of the small stuff, and use Weave to ditch the big stuff (Boom//Bust = 8 life!).
I found that Edge of Autumn was useful enough. They allowed me to make use of lands that were going to be taken out by Boom//Bust and the like, and gave me use of lands that I would topdeck that I didn't need. Since you can sac a tapped land, this is yet another free cantrip. You can do some neat tricks with this to get the mana you need when you know you have a land on top of your library. I imagine this would only matter much to others who run 13 land, like myself.
The sideboard probably needs a ton of work. I just threw in random stuff for now, until I find the biggest weaknesses. Leylines seem necessary for now, as Hurkyl's Recall just blows us out. Has plenty of good uses otherwise, too, and it's in color (in my build) so I can actually hardcast it. I really kind of want to find some room for Spreading Algae. That card plays perfectly into the mana denial control route.
I found that I wanted Relics main for now. That might fluctuate with Grafdigger's Cage, as the meta changes.
NICE!!! At last this is starting to show results at events. Keep it up!
@thnkr
I met Martin, had a game with him too a few days ago. Only 1 game though, he was using a UWR list with counterbalance, I won. I actually tested the deck vs counterbalance, I had control already and let him draw balance so I could test if I could manipulate the tops to evade balance's trigger. Worked like a charm, he didn't want to play game 2 because he said his deck was a very bad matchup against this since he needs to rely on topdecks to work. Nice person indeed, he posts here in MTGSal and is participating in the Lantern IQ.
Anyways, how did the new decklist do in testing? I tried a modified list with lammastide but never got to play it in the few games I tested. I'll have to give it a few more test runs though, its really interesting but I think you'll still benefit from the bridges.
@Everyone
Updated the member's list section in the primer. Added a lot of decklists from the last pages, if I missed any let me know.
@Roozle, send me your decklist to plug it in the primer with your event report.
zerodown: The Lammastide Weave worked great in the matches that I played with Martin. I used them only when I'd manipulated a high cmc card to the top of his deck (Boom/Bust each time, netting me 8 life, a card draw, and a mill per Weave). I still need to playtest a good amount more, but it's been difficult lately. Refrigerator died, lots going on
Has anyone tried out defense grid? From my experiences, playing through countermagic is a pain in the ass and is the biggest problem in a lot of matchups (esper teachings, twin, scapeshift, eternal command, etc). Top doesn't really cast spells on other players turns much, and as a 2 cost artifact we can get it out and protect it fairly effectively. Seems like it could be solid sideboard material.
Played another, bigger tournament last night. Ended up going 2-1-1.
Win 2-1 vs gb deathcloud: first game I didn't have my welding jars mb, and he had maelstrom pulse and abrupt decay in opening hand. Duress took the abrupt decay, but he started pumping out beast tokens with garruk, and maelstrom pulsed my ensnaring bridge for an alpha strike. Games 2 and 3 I sb in pithing needle, welding jars, and a 4th surgical extraction. Duress+surgical (and welding jars) took care of his permanent destruction spells, and pithing needle neutered garruk. Hid behind a bridge until a win.
Lost 1-2 vs storm: Very close match. I scooped turn 5 in the first match (mull to 5, no lands, 5 turns and two ancient stirrings later, still no lands), won the second via scoop, and lost the third. So many draw spells, plus so little lands made this a tough matchup.
Win 2-0 vs mono-black control: managed to bypass his discard to drop an early ensnaring bridge both games. He had no answer and scooped a few turns later.
Draw 1-1 vs rb goblins: game 1 had me down to 9 before an ensnaring bridge hit the field. Stalled for a while, but he ultimated Liliana of the Veil, putting bridge in one pile and everything else in another. I had to keep the bridge (he had a goblin army). I stalled while he kept on ultimating Liliana, doing the same thing to rid me of permanents, before he hit me with burn spells ftw. I was hoping for a mill win there, but it didn't happen. Game 2: turn 2 pithing needle took out LotV, and a quick lock afterwords followed by an eventual tezz finished the game. Then we ran out of time.
Overall an average night. I didn't get any tier 1 matchups, but no precons this time, either. I think I'm going to mb a pithing needle or two.
I'll make more comments on it when I get a couple more test games with it.
@Mawootad
No one has tried it to my knowledge. I don't think it will save you as you will have to slow your game down to drop that before you drop the combo. Are you having trouble playing your cards or keeping control after? I don't have much trouble playing the pieces, but keeping control can be hard with things like teachings (the game I watched you play is proof of it, teaching sucks like bloodbraid used to suck). My thinking is that late game grid won't save you much as you'll be supplying them extra lands, and early game I would rather go for the combo than grid. Discard spells help with that. What is your current list? Post it to plug it in the primer.
@Big Hat
Why do you not have leyline in the SB? Seems you could have won that match with it pretty easy.
Your unfinished match was unlucky as I feel you would have won game 3 from your narration. Hell why weren't you packing those needles on game 1? I've been a mayor advocate for needle main, it WILL get you out of a lot of weird situations.
I would play 1 beast within main at least too, you can cut 1 surgical. But I wouldn't put the surgical on the SB, I would leave it out and I would cut 1 needle, 1 dispatch and 1 jar for those leylines. Then again this is a paper list, maybe you just don't have leylines.
Anyways congrats, you seem to be doing really good at events, I'll plug your new list with this results too later in the night (Im at work now).
@Everyone
Since I started playing on cockatrice I've been joining random games as spectator to see if I catch people playing the deck, so far I've seen Mawootad playing it and a fellow by the name of FornoRamone. He is italian and doesn't have an account, however his list is different from the lists posted so far (kind of a jund-ish mix) so I asked him for the list to post it. He wrote some comments with it. (I corrected some of the spelling)
By FornoRamone:
Hi guys, i'm Forno Ramone, from Italy.
Some time ago i read a thread about TopControl on an italian forum and i suddenly thought "hey, 2 cc1 artifact to lock my opponent draw... it's insane! this must deserve a well built deck".
After that moment of excitment i read ur topic here on MTGSalvation and i took some advice.
First i played an EsperTopControl: dispatch and some goodies from the board. But i feel like i was missing something.
I feel heavy aggro a bad MU and dispatch was not what i was looking for. Then i thought to u and feel like a red splash was necessary. Pyroclasm is definitively what i was lacking in my last version of deck. Red also allows Faithless Looting (i tried 4 but was really too much, now i play 2 with good results) and some other.
The next step was the addition of some recurring card. Up to this time milling myself was not a good option in each game and a blind Ghoulcaller's bell could take out some key card.
I thought i want some card that milled or discarded would remain quite good. I found 3 good cards:
- faithless loothing (a good 2of)
- darkblast (a really keycard, take care of some pericolous creature and dredge help to dig the library)
- lingering souls (chumpblock, wincon, everything in one card )
After approfondite test i took a satifying version, here the list:
The deck is structured this way:
12 lock artifact (bell, codex and lantern, if i see multiple i'm happy almost every time)
a lot of creature hate (4 pyroclasm, 4 liliana, 1 spellbomb, 1 explosives, 4 bridge, 1 darkblast)
4 deathrite (winning condition, ramp, grave hate, filling the curve)
4 trinket and his toolbox (ee, spellbomb, mox, combo pieces, needle)
18 land (2 ruins)
this set up gives me hope when paired with aggro MU.
also control decks are not so difficult, due to needle and ruin and codex.
combo is quite disappeared in modern meta.
The side would change the main vs problematic deck.
4 nature's claim to deal affinity, stony silence and this kind of things. Also board in vs burnlikedeck to break some our pieces and gain 4 lifes.
4 duress. Main lack of discard (only 4 lily) 'cause i rarely feel like was necessary. I want things that does something when cast, not conditional card,
so i have quite never death draws
3 surgical. To take care of the few combo. Powerful the combination with miller, liliana and duress.
1 grafdigger's cage. Toolbox for trinet, take care of pod.
2 needle. Vs deck with a lot of problematic permanent (like walkers and so on)
1 relic. Versatile grave hate (the weaker slot in the 75)
i would run aven mindcensor and meddling mage but for now they are out. I think surgical and dures fill those spaces better.
Feel free to disrupt my list, but i would suggest u to try it.
To conclude this tome (xD) i would beg u to not stop developing this deck. I feel there is a lot of potential in this 12 artifact.
Try a strange version, try something unconventional. Try everything and this could become a competitive deck!!
Greetings from Italy!
And i beg your pardon for my poor english.
Cy on cockatrice ^^
Forno Ramone
The defense grids are completely experimental, currently sitting in over welding jars. The one game I've had a chance to use them in (against twin) they did a ton of work, but that was only one game so I'm still not sold on them. Other than that, the only big difference from zerodown's list (after he dropped the baubles) is a single tormod's crypt in the sideboard that I pull in for both the matchups that need grave hate as well as matchups like living end and U tron where grave hate helps but grafdiggers is ineffective. I've also been considering switching the mana base from RW fetches and a plains to GB fetches and a forest so that I can run nature's claim in the sideboard instead of wear // tear. It doesn't have the 2 for 1 potential of wear // tear, but the life gain and lower mana cost makes it a superior option as long as the mana base will support it. After I play some more with the defense grids it'll probably be the next thing I check out.
@zerodown: I completely forgot about the leylines. Unfortunately, I don't have any, but I'll see if I can pick some up soon.
I much prefer surgical extraction to beast within. Every game I've had a beast within I've wished it was either a pithing needle, dispatch, or surgical. Surgicals allow me to neuter a deck without a lantern in play. I've found it to be one of the most useful cards mainboard, while beast within has been the least useful. I'll keep them sideboard just in case, though. There are absolutely no leylines of sanctity in my metagame, which is the only reason I can think of for beast within.
Private Mod Note
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Modern: UR storm
Legacy: dragon stompy
Pauper: UG madness
MTGO: big_hat
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http://www.mtgsalvation.com/trading-post/details/805-w-underground-sea-h-revised-lands
My early builds did, but the more I tested the more I realized they are superfluous in all but the most niche points of a duel.
Ensnaring Bridge is a catch all artifact. It is the most important thing in the deck. It is this card for why Wraths aren't needed. Pyroclasm wipes away most small creatures that get in the way until Bridge gets online.
Also Zero, sorry I haven't been around. I've updated my build because some of the ideas since I've been gone are great. Plus that new legend rule means 4 Moxes all day every day.
1 Stomping Ground
1 Overgrown Tomb
4 Glimmervoid
3 Darksteel Citadel
2 Academy Ruins
1 Temple Garden
1 Breeding Pool
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Forest
1 Island
Lock
4 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Ghoulcaller's Bell
4 Codex Shredder
4 Lantern of Insight
4 Mox Opal
3 Ancient Stirrings
3 Duress
4 Mishra's Bauble
2 Faithless Looting
Alternate Win Con
1 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
Main Board Hate Cards
2 Beast Within
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Pithing Needle
2 Infernal Tutor
4 Pyroclasm
u/Anon_Amarth - Fun as a zero sum game: If my opponent is having none of it, then by extension I must be having all of it.
Current Top Control Decklist
Cockatrice: Spage
1. Its a creature, it will be easily taken care off without doing much.
2. It has a 2mana activation cost which means it will slow you down the rest of your game.
@Biefall
Yeah I tried some in the beginning too, specially Supreme Verdict for the uncounterability. But at 4cc you'll die to fast aggro more often than not holding it in hand. Most games I don't have more than 3 lands until after turns 6-8.
@Spage
Looks good.You gave up the dispatches for the extra bridge and 2 lands, I would cut 1 Tutor and 1 Bauble for the second needle and the 4th duress or a 3rd faithless. I am actually trying a no bauble's list and its doing good. In the SB I'd switch 2 BW with 2 Wear/Tear, things like Kataki and stoney Silence drop too early to wait for the 3rd land for beast within.
@Everyone: I recently started playing on cockatrice, love the replay function. If anyone has a tutorial on how to upload replays in here I'll gladly upload some replays instead of game pics.
Also, has anyone seen anything remotely useful in M14? I haven't seen anything worth a test so far.
EDIT: I signed up for this month's Lantern IQ. Just lost in the first round, don't want to give details on the opponent's deck as Lantern is still going. Game 1 he won due to having a really good hand (Game 1 on this matchup is about 50/50), game 2 I locked fast and went on till he conceded, game 3 I made a rookie mistake, I kept a hand with leyline only to notice in my draw step that I had NO LANDS in hand (Felt kinda stupid). I had everything else, mox, lantern, codex, pyroclasm, duress, stirrings, just not a freaking land... My next 2 draws weren't lands either and he destroyed my leyline... Sucks for being my first attempt at lantern, we'll see on the next one.
"When you get your opponent down to 0 sanity, you win the game!"
Based on both my testing results from last month, the MTGO stats I am compiling, and the results of GP Portland and GP Kansas City, you really need to maindeck that 4th Bridge. There are just so many dang creatures in this format right now that you can't justify not doing it. Twin needs to attack around it. So does Living End. So does Affinity and Burn and Zoo. So do all the Midrange decks. It's just such a live card in these matchups that you can't afford to not use it.
If I were taking this deck to a tournament, I would want to hedge my bets against the creature-based archetypes (i.e. run the 4th Bridge and lots of removal) and not worry too much about Scapeshift and Storm and other combo decks were Bridge won't be as useful.
Seems reasonable and I could cut the dispatches back down to 3, it would also free up a slot on the SB since I wouldn't put a 4th dispatch in there.
Are those MTGO stats looking good? I'm interested, I just started playing on cockatrice and I'm trying to figure out how to get some replays on here. I have played some games on cockatrice, won every single one except the match for the lantern IQ, which made me feel stupid for keeping a no land hand, should have been an easy match otherwise.
I'm actually not missing the baubles, but I certainly miss dropping both lantern and a miller on turn 1 every now and then.
EDIT: @Everyone
I've been thinking on how to drop the combo on turn 1 and can only think of Simian Spirit Guide. To drop both pieces along with a land. It can also serve to play a combo piece and a lootings or something else turn 1 and it sort of ramps a bridge or anything. Copies can be dumped to lootings and it could serve as a chump blocker in the worst case scenario.
I just can't imagine what to cut for some of these. Anyone got an idea or are these shenanigans not worth it? Is there another way other than simian or baubles to drop a combo turn 1?
"When you get your opponent down to 0 sanity, you win the game!"
4 Brushland
4 Ghost Quarter
3 Horizon Canopy
1 Forest
1 Plains
4 Lantern of Insight
4 Codex Shredder
4 Ghoulcaller's Bell
4 Lammastide Weave
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ancient Stirrings
4 Sun Droplet
4 Porphyry Nodes
2 Pithing Needle
2 Relic of Progenitus
3 Nature's Claim
I figure that playing green feels absolutely necessary for this deck, due to Ancient Stirrings. The combo defends both the player and itself, aside from being the win condition. This means that everything else would have to be a way to get the combo online as soon as possible, and to take care of what is in the opp's opening hand. In this version there are 8 free cantrips, and 13 more cantrips along side it (counting Stirrings as a cantrip, as it replaces itself with the card you choose). This should allow the deck to be as reliable as it's going to get to have the combo online as fast as possible.
The Nodes would take out the creatures the opp does draw or get in their opening hand. Pithing Needle, Relic of Progenitus, and Nature's Claim are maindeck answers that aren't mana intensive. Sun Droplet can help turn back the clock that the opp might be able to put on us, and works great with Brushland and Canopy in multiples.
I also found an additional card for the goal, Lammastide Weave. It works as a one-time Shredder, a cantrip, and life gain, all for 1G.
For my version (irl), I'd have to give up on the Canopy, as I can't afford them, but otherwise the deck is rather affordable, and I am anxious to playtest it. For anyone else working with budget constraints, I've been using Edge of Autumn instead. I've considered Restore Balance in place of the Sun Droplet, but I'm not sure if the deck can wait that long for a wipe. It seems like it would work wonderfully, otherwise.
Lantern Control
(with videos)
Uc Tron
Netdecking explained
Netdecking explained, Part 2
On speculators and counterfeits
On Interaction
Every single competitive deck in existence is designed to limit the opponent's ability to interact in a meaningful way.
Record number of exclamation points on SCG homepage: 71 (6 January, 2018)
"I don't want to believe, I want to know."
-Carl Sagan
Thats why I can't fit it in, nothing is worth cutting for that. Is there no other way to drop a turn 1 combo?
No bridge or discard? Thats interesting, I had nodes in the first list, it was good, Forbidden Orchard was tested to keep nodes alive. I'm trying to imagine how it would play and I think it will be risky trying to stabilize thorugh nodes and droplet. Do let us know how it does, some people suggested droplet from the beginning but I don't think anyone tested it.
Lammastide looks awesome, hadn't seen that card. Its a creature but it does its work upon entering the battlefield so it shouldn't be a problem to lose it after. I saw a player playing a variant of top control on cockatrice, he had 2 lingering souls main, might help you to block and keep nodes alive too. He had an interesting list with Lillianas, DRS and Lingering Souls, I got the decklist, I'll post it after I ask him if theres no problem with it.
Whats the purpose of Nature's Claim? Lifegain?
Wouldn't Grafdigger's Cage work better than Progenitus? or are you playing that one mainly for the cantrip?
What will you do with late game unused mana? This seems like the deck to fit in Timesifter, you got little control without bridge and discard. Your plan is to drop the combo ASAP, if you could stall with nodes and droplet until you land a sifter its over.
Let us know how testing goes, interesting list.
"When you get your opponent down to 0 sanity, you win the game!"
I couldn't think of a better all-around option other than Sun Droplet. I needed something that could help me recover from any opening hand creatures and/or burn, or for anything that happened to get by the combo. I also happened to notice how well Brushland and Horizon Canopy worked with two Sun Droplets out (life gain engine), so there was synergy with the mana fixing, early recovering, and setting up a padding of life as the game went on, just in case. Sun Droplet might seem slow, but really, you're gaining a life at every upkeep.
I playtested my build and randomly got matched up with Ad Nauseum combo and some random green build with elves and Vigor. I went 1-2 with ANC, winning the first game, but losing the 2nd and 3rd (18 cantrips in the deck and couldn't find a single Nature's Claim to take out a Leyline of Sanctity in both games). I figure that this calls for a Leyline of my own in my sideboard. He ended up winning through my Pithing Needles and Grafdigger's Cage due to EOT Hurkyl's Recall. I only started the game with the Vigor deck, as my wife had just finished dinner. I could have probably sided in all of my Relics to win the subsequent games, but had to go.
Lantern Control
(with videos)
Uc Tron
Netdecking explained
Netdecking explained, Part 2
On speculators and counterfeits
On Interaction
Every single competitive deck in existence is designed to limit the opponent's ability to interact in a meaningful way.
Record number of exclamation points on SCG homepage: 71 (6 January, 2018)
"I don't want to believe, I want to know."
-Carl Sagan
Sun Droplet looks slow, but it also stacks. Would you be able to fit some Manabarbs? You could win though that and sun droplet would regain any life lost to it, which would be minimal with so low cc cards. Its in red though, but sounds interesting. At one point I was also playing Pulse of the fields as a lifegain spell that keeps coming back to the hand, which wouldn't be a problem because you have no bridge. Saved me a couple times until I could wipe the field with nodes, and it laughs at any red deck.
Timesifter is indeed too costly, though its just 1 more mana than tezz (the wincon of choice) but the plan is to stall with droplet so you'll eventually reach 5 mana and at that moment timesifter could end the game on the spot. Otherwise the opponent might have some tricks up their sleeves before you mill them. I look at it as a guarantee, you could also play Ajani Veangant and use his +1 for control until you blow their lands. It also has a burn ability. Just giving ideas.
Deathrite Shaman is also an idea, as it has burn, lifegain, ramp, graveyard hate and it can block, its also within your colors.
I had a match last night vs Ad Nauseum, won game 1 easy, had control early and he never drew the card, game 2 I had lantern on turn 1 but Ad Nauseum was his top deck and I didn't want to waste my lantern shuffling it away, I ended up using Wear/Tear on his Phyrexian Unlife in response to Nauseum, he had to stop drawing before he could find a second simian to go off. Had it gone to game 3 I would have sided in leylines, didn't do it on game 2 because I didn't recognize the deck on game 1.
"When you get your opponent down to 0 sanity, you win the game!"
Legacy: dragon stompy
Pauper: UG madness
MTGO: big_hat
4 Brushland
4 Ghost Quarter
1 Forest
4 Lantern of Insight
4 Mishra's Bauble
4 Codex Shredder
4 Ghoulcaller's Bell
4 Lammastide Weave
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Edge of Autumn
4 Poryphyry Nodes
4 Dispatch
3 Nature's Claim
2 Pithing Needle
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Relic of Progenitus
3 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Pithing Needle
1 Nature's Claim
2 Sun Droplet
4 Leyline of Sanctity
First, the Nodes and the Dispatch were essential, I found. Nodes are good for long term creature control, but Dispatch was absolutely necessary for instant speed removal.
zerodown: I use the Bauble as single-use Lantern 5-8. That, and they are free cantrips.
And Lammastride Weave. That single card got me so much life. I would use the Bells and Shredders to get rid of the small stuff, and use Weave to ditch the big stuff (Boom//Bust = 8 life!).
I found that Edge of Autumn was useful enough. They allowed me to make use of lands that were going to be taken out by Boom//Bust and the like, and gave me use of lands that I would topdeck that I didn't need. Since you can sac a tapped land, this is yet another free cantrip. You can do some neat tricks with this to get the mana you need when you know you have a land on top of your library. I imagine this would only matter much to others who run 13 land, like myself.
The sideboard probably needs a ton of work. I just threw in random stuff for now, until I find the biggest weaknesses. Leylines seem necessary for now, as Hurkyl's Recall just blows us out. Has plenty of good uses otherwise, too, and it's in color (in my build) so I can actually hardcast it. I really kind of want to find some room for Spreading Algae. That card plays perfectly into the mana denial control route.
I found that I wanted Relics main for now. That might fluctuate with Grafdigger's Cage, as the meta changes.
Lantern Control
(with videos)
Uc Tron
Netdecking explained
Netdecking explained, Part 2
On speculators and counterfeits
On Interaction
Every single competitive deck in existence is designed to limit the opponent's ability to interact in a meaningful way.
Record number of exclamation points on SCG homepage: 71 (6 January, 2018)
"I don't want to believe, I want to know."
-Carl Sagan
NICE!!! At last this is starting to show results at events. Keep it up!
@thnkr
I met Martin, had a game with him too a few days ago. Only 1 game though, he was using a UWR list with counterbalance, I won. I actually tested the deck vs counterbalance, I had control already and let him draw balance so I could test if I could manipulate the tops to evade balance's trigger. Worked like a charm, he didn't want to play game 2 because he said his deck was a very bad matchup against this since he needs to rely on topdecks to work. Nice person indeed, he posts here in MTGSal and is participating in the Lantern IQ.
Anyways, how did the new decklist do in testing? I tried a modified list with lammastide but never got to play it in the few games I tested. I'll have to give it a few more test runs though, its really interesting but I think you'll still benefit from the bridges.
@Everyone
Updated the member's list section in the primer. Added a lot of decklists from the last pages, if I missed any let me know.
@Roozle, send me your decklist to plug it in the primer with your event report.
@Spage, updated your decklist in the primer.
"When you get your opponent down to 0 sanity, you win the game!"
Lantern Control
(with videos)
Uc Tron
Netdecking explained
Netdecking explained, Part 2
On speculators and counterfeits
On Interaction
Every single competitive deck in existence is designed to limit the opponent's ability to interact in a meaningful way.
Record number of exclamation points on SCG homepage: 71 (6 January, 2018)
"I don't want to believe, I want to know."
-Carl Sagan
Lost 1-2 vs storm: Very close match. I scooped turn 5 in the first match (mull to 5, no lands, 5 turns and two ancient stirrings later, still no lands), won the second via scoop, and lost the third. So many draw spells, plus so little lands made this a tough matchup.
Win 2-0 vs mono-black control: managed to bypass his discard to drop an early ensnaring bridge both games. He had no answer and scooped a few turns later.
Draw 1-1 vs rb goblins: game 1 had me down to 9 before an ensnaring bridge hit the field. Stalled for a while, but he ultimated Liliana of the Veil, putting bridge in one pile and everything else in another. I had to keep the bridge (he had a goblin army). I stalled while he kept on ultimating Liliana, doing the same thing to rid me of permanents, before he hit me with burn spells ftw. I was hoping for a mill win there, but it didn't happen. Game 2: turn 2 pithing needle took out LotV, and a quick lock afterwords followed by an eventual tezz finished the game. Then we ran out of time.
Overall an average night. I didn't get any tier 1 matchups, but no precons this time, either. I think I'm going to mb a pithing needle or two.
My current decklist (post-tournament):
4 Glimmervoid
4 Gemstone Mine
1 Godless Shrine
1 Watery Grave
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Temple Garden
1 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Academy Ruins
1 Forest
Artifacts:
4 Lantern of Insight
4 Codex Shredder
4 Ghoulcaller's bell
4 Mishra's Bauble
4 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Mox Opal
2 Pithing Needle
4 Ancient Stirrings
4 Duress
3 Dispatch
3 Pyroclasm
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Infernal Tutor
Planeswalkers:
1 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
4 Welding Jar
3 Beast Within
3 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Pithing Needle
1 Dispatch
1 Pyroclasm
1 Surgical Extraction
I just wish I had fetches. The color requirements for the first couple turns can be a bit wonky.
Legacy: dragon stompy
Pauper: UG madness
MTGO: big_hat
I'll make more comments on it when I get a couple more test games with it.
@Mawootad
No one has tried it to my knowledge. I don't think it will save you as you will have to slow your game down to drop that before you drop the combo. Are you having trouble playing your cards or keeping control after? I don't have much trouble playing the pieces, but keeping control can be hard with things like teachings (the game I watched you play is proof of it, teaching sucks like bloodbraid used to suck). My thinking is that late game grid won't save you much as you'll be supplying them extra lands, and early game I would rather go for the combo than grid. Discard spells help with that. What is your current list? Post it to plug it in the primer.
@Big Hat
Why do you not have leyline in the SB? Seems you could have won that match with it pretty easy.
Your unfinished match was unlucky as I feel you would have won game 3 from your narration. Hell why weren't you packing those needles on game 1? I've been a mayor advocate for needle main, it WILL get you out of a lot of weird situations.
I would play 1 beast within main at least too, you can cut 1 surgical. But I wouldn't put the surgical on the SB, I would leave it out and I would cut 1 needle, 1 dispatch and 1 jar for those leylines. Then again this is a paper list, maybe you just don't have leylines.
Anyways congrats, you seem to be doing really good at events, I'll plug your new list with this results too later in the night (Im at work now).
@Everyone
Since I started playing on cockatrice I've been joining random games as spectator to see if I catch people playing the deck, so far I've seen Mawootad playing it and a fellow by the name of FornoRamone. He is italian and doesn't have an account, however his list is different from the lists posted so far (kind of a jund-ish mix) so I asked him for the list to post it. He wrote some comments with it. (I corrected some of the spelling)
By FornoRamone:
Hi guys, i'm Forno Ramone, from Italy.
Some time ago i read a thread about TopControl on an italian forum and i suddenly thought "hey, 2 cc1 artifact to lock my opponent draw... it's insane! this must deserve a well built deck".
After that moment of excitment i read ur topic here on MTGSalvation and i took some advice.
First i played an EsperTopControl: dispatch and some goodies from the board. But i feel like i was missing something.
I feel heavy aggro a bad MU and dispatch was not what i was looking for. Then i thought to u and feel like a red splash was necessary.
Pyroclasm is definitively what i was lacking in my last version of deck. Red also allows Faithless Looting (i tried 4 but was really too much, now i play 2 with good results) and some other.
The next step was the addition of some recurring card. Up to this time milling myself was not a good option in each game and a blind Ghoulcaller's bell could take out some key card.
I thought i want some card that milled or discarded would remain quite good. I found 3 good cards:
- faithless loothing (a good 2of)
- darkblast (a really keycard, take care of some pericolous creature and dredge help to dig the library)
- lingering souls (chumpblock, wincon, everything in one card )
After approfondite test i took a satifying version, here the list:
4 Codex Shredder
4 Ghoulcaller's Bell
4 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Trinket Mage
1 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Mox Opal
1 Pithing Needle
4 Liliana of the Veil
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Lingering Souls
2 Faithless Looting
4 Pyroclasm
1 Darkblast
1 Pyrite Spellbomb
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Island
1 Mountain
1 Blood Crypt
1 Steam Vents
4 Glimmervoid
2 Academy Ruins
1 Watery Grave
Side
4 nature's claim
4 duress
3 surgical extraction
1 grafdigger's cage
2 pithing needle
1 relic of progenitus
The deck is structured this way:
12 lock artifact (bell, codex and lantern, if i see multiple i'm happy almost every time)
a lot of creature hate (4 pyroclasm, 4 liliana, 1 spellbomb, 1 explosives, 4 bridge, 1 darkblast)
4 deathrite (winning condition, ramp, grave hate, filling the curve)
4 trinket and his toolbox (ee, spellbomb, mox, combo pieces, needle)
18 land (2 ruins)
this set up gives me hope when paired with aggro MU.
also control decks are not so difficult, due to needle and ruin and codex.
combo is quite disappeared in modern meta.
The side would change the main vs problematic deck.
4 nature's claim to deal affinity, stony silence and this kind of things. Also board in vs burnlikedeck to break some our pieces and gain 4 lifes.
4 duress. Main lack of discard (only 4 lily) 'cause i rarely feel like was necessary. I want things that does something when cast, not conditional card,
so i have quite never death draws
3 surgical. To take care of the few combo. Powerful the combination with miller, liliana and duress.
1 grafdigger's cage. Toolbox for trinet, take care of pod.
2 needle. Vs deck with a lot of problematic permanent (like walkers and so on)
1 relic. Versatile grave hate (the weaker slot in the 75)
i would run aven mindcensor and meddling mage but for now they are out. I think surgical and dures fill those spaces better.
Feel free to disrupt my list, but i would suggest u to try it.
To conclude this tome (xD) i would beg u to not stop developing this deck. I feel there is a lot of potential in this 12 artifact.
Try a strange version, try something unconventional. Try everything and this could become a competitive deck!!
Greetings from Italy!
And i beg your pardon for my poor english.
Cy on cockatrice ^^
Forno Ramone
"When you get your opponent down to 0 sanity, you win the game!"
4 Glimmervoid
4 Arid Mesa
2 Academy Ruins
1 Temple Garden
1 Stomping Ground
1 Plains
1 Godless Shrine
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Blood Crypt
1 Steam Vents
Artifacts
4 Lantern of Insight
4 Codex Shredder
4 Ghoulcaller's Bell
3 Mox Opal
4 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Pithing Needle
1 Grafdigger's Cage
4 Ancient Stirrings
3 Faithless Looting
3 Dispatch
3 Pyroclasm
3 Duress
2 Beast Within
2 Infernal Tutor
1 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
4 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Thoughtseize
1 Pithing Needle
1 Grafdigger's Cage
3 Wear // Tear
1 Tormod's Crypt
3 Defense Grid
The defense grids are completely experimental, currently sitting in over welding jars. The one game I've had a chance to use them in (against twin) they did a ton of work, but that was only one game so I'm still not sold on them. Other than that, the only big difference from zerodown's list (after he dropped the baubles) is a single tormod's crypt in the sideboard that I pull in for both the matchups that need grave hate as well as matchups like living end and U tron where grave hate helps but grafdiggers is ineffective. I've also been considering switching the mana base from RW fetches and a plains to GB fetches and a forest so that I can run nature's claim in the sideboard instead of wear // tear. It doesn't have the 2 for 1 potential of wear // tear, but the life gain and lower mana cost makes it a superior option as long as the mana base will support it. After I play some more with the defense grids it'll probably be the next thing I check out.
I much prefer surgical extraction to beast within. Every game I've had a beast within I've wished it was either a pithing needle, dispatch, or surgical. Surgicals allow me to neuter a deck without a lantern in play. I've found it to be one of the most useful cards mainboard, while beast within has been the least useful. I'll keep them sideboard just in case, though. There are absolutely no leylines of sanctity in my metagame, which is the only reason I can think of for beast within.
Legacy: dragon stompy
Pauper: UG madness
MTGO: big_hat