2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Why not? It could potentially be a good method for us to catch scum. And besides, just saying the generation of you pokemon wouldn't reveal anything about your role or put you in any danger. There are over 100+ pokemon from each generation.!
For one thing, we have no reason to believe our generations matter. The flavor post makes no indication that we're not from the full 'dex.
:sneaky:unless you and your scumbuddies are the same generation!!!
- hansanator: What was up with that mass softclaim nonsense? How would it help catch scum if it wouldn't reveal anything about anyone's roles? You made assertions without evidence for a bad idea. What were you thinking when you made that suggestion, and why did you get so defensive when pressed about it?
- KoolKoal: Saying that Arcadic's first vote was serious is pretty weak, but what really raises a red flag for me is how he handled his mistaken vote for hans. He voted hans for not knowing how RVS tells work, despite later saying that, "I don't think RVS tells are very reliable, but they catch scum once in a while and give us a good jump-off point to get into the real meat of the game." This is what's known as special pleading: He's acknowledging the general case that RVS tells aren't reliable, while not giving justification to the claim that this case is exceptional—he restates his premises at one point, but he doesn't make the connection to how hans' lack of voting isn't a null tell. Oh, and the whole "laughing at tinypic" thing reeks of deflection. He looks very much like scum who got caught making a bad case and is now fumbling around trying to justify it.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
despite later saying that, "I don't think RVS tells are very reliable, but they catch scum once in a while and give us a good jump-off point to get into the real meat of the game." This is what's known as special pleading: He's acknowledging the general case that RVS tells aren't reliable, while not giving justification to the claim that this case is exceptional—he restates his premises at one point, but he doesn't make the connection to how hans' lack of voting isn't a null tell.
Why should I point out the various ways it could be a null tell for hans, the guy who's ignored the whole thing thus far rather than respond to me? In fact, I'd say by this point the fact that he's ignoring the point about his RVS posting and instead pushing for a useless mass-soft-flavorclaim is fairly damning.
lol, that's an excellent misread of why I voted for hansanator. Excellently humorous at least.
You said he "certainly should know how RVS works by now" and, more clearly, that "My reason for voting hans was that he's an experienced player who knows what rvs is, but doesn't join in on the voting. This could be a mindset tell of not wanting to stick his neck out or get on someone's bad side." In other words, you're voting him because you think he should've known better.
Why should I point out the various ways it could be a null tell for hans, the guy who's ignored the whole thing thus far rather than respond to me? In fact, I'd say by this point the fact that he's ignoring the point about his RVS posting and instead pushing for a useless mass-soft-flavorclaim is fairly damning.
1) That's the opposite of what I asked. I said that you acknowledged the general case of RVS tells not being reliable, but you aren't saying why this instance is reliable.
2) So you respond to my case on you by trying to deflect onto hans? Get lynched.
Please tell me what I was deflecting from, as deflecting has to do avoiding a line of questioning you should have a specific example for this.
Iso asked you if you're scum, and you laughed at the source of his picture. In other words, trying to use apparent humour to make the whole thing seem more humorous and deflect suspicion away from you.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
My reason for voting hans was that he's an experienced player who knows what rvs is, but doesn't join in on the voting. This could be a mindset tell of not wanting to stick his neck out or get on someone's bad side. My reasoning for bringing up the abbreviations (if I wasn't misremembering who asked for them) was that its an obvious noob tell, and if he actually had made that post, then that was a potential reason he wouldn't have known about rvs.
Show me 3 games in which some players were around for RVS but did not vote. Mark how many were town and how many are scum.
Why not? It could potentially be a good method for us to catch scum. And besides, just saying the generation of you pokemon wouldn't reveal anything about your role or put you in any danger. There are over 100+ pokemon from each generation.
This is completely relevant! I don't know how I could talk about anything more relevant!
hansanator doesn't make me feel good but I'm not sure yet.
- hansanator: What was up with that mass softclaim nonsense? How would it help catch scum if it wouldn't reveal anything about anyone's roles? You made assertions without evidence for a bad idea. What were you thinking when you made that suggestion, and why did you get so defensive when pressed about it?
- KoolKoal: Saying that Arcadic's first vote was serious is pretty weak, but what really raises a red flag for me is how he handled his mistaken vote for hans. He voted hans for not knowing how RVS tells work, despite later saying that, "I don't think RVS tells are very reliable, but they catch scum once in a while and give us a good jump-off point to get into the real meat of the game." This is what's known as special pleading: He's acknowledging the general case that RVS tells aren't reliable, while not giving justification to the claim that this case is exceptional—he restates his premises at one point, but he doesn't make the connection to how hans' lack of voting isn't a null tell. Oh, and the whole "laughing at tinypic" thing reeks of deflection. He looks very much like scum who got caught making a bad case and is now fumbling around trying to justify it.
Vote KoolKoal
Oh sweet Teia is scum. Unvote, Vote: Teia Rabishu.
I'll come back to KoolKoal later, after we lynch Teia.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
lol, that's an excellent misread of why I voted for hansanator. Excellently humorous at least.
You said he "certainly should know how RVS works by now" and, more clearly, that "My reason for voting hans was that he's an experienced player who knows what rvs is, but doesn't join in on the voting. This could be a mindset tell of not wanting to stick his neck out or get on someone's bad side." In other words, you're voting him because you think he should've known better.
You said I "voted him for not knowing how rvs tells work" which is not at all the same as "voted him for committing an rvs tell"(<- actual reason) When I talk about his experience, I'm saying he has to know that rvs includes voting so inexperience isn't an excuse for the tell.
Why should I point out the various ways it could be a null tell for hans, the guy who's ignored the whole thing thus far rather than respond to me? In fact, I'd say by this point the fact that he's ignoring the point about his RVS posting and instead pushing for a useless mass-soft-flavorclaim is fairly damning.
1) That's the opposite of what I asked. I said that you acknowledged the general case of RVS tells not being reliable, but you aren't saying why this instance is reliable.
2) So you respond to my case on you by trying to deflect onto hans? Get lynched.
1) Oh, I got confused because I certainly did say how it could be a scum tell.
Iso asked you if you're scum, and you laughed at the source of his picture. In other words, trying to use apparent humour to make the whole thing seem more humorous and deflect suspicion away from you.
First of all, I answered Iso's question :B.
Secondly, why would I be deflecting to direct suspicion away from me and simultaneously asking Iso to get more specific on his question to me multiple times, culminating in not even answering his question to his satisfaction? That's the opposite of deflecting.
You of all people should recognize that this is town Teia. (Though I'm agreeing with Void so far, probably because I took my only successful method of reading him from Dietryp. You're going to need to help me on GM though.)
@Wheat: *sigh* homework? fine I'll get on it.
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I'll bet you wish you had a non-unglued/unhinged card that shared your first name.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
- hansanator: What was up with that mass softclaim nonsense? How would it help catch scum if it wouldn't reveal anything about anyone's roles?
I did, and still do, think that it was a brilliant idea. I guess everyone is adamantly against it, so I might as well share my thoughts about it. Keep in mind that if I had stated my precise reasons for proposing the softclaim, the mafia would have learned how to avoid/mislead us.
I said it could potentially help us because there may or may not be patterns in the generations each of our pokemon are from. The best case scenario would be that the mod made it so that there were an equal number from each generation. I know that this would be unlikely, but I figured that it was worth a shot to find out.
Reason 1. The paramount way this could help us is if there was a mafia janitor in this game. I don't know how common they are on this site (I haven't seen one yet in my 3 games here), but they were quite common on the site that I used to play on. This softclaim method would thin the number of people that the scum could be. Consider this example to hopefully explain the phenomenon better:
Ex: There are 12 people in the game and we softclaim by generation. Results:
Generation I: 4 people
Generation II: 4 people
Generation IV: 4 people
Now after night 1, a person from generation II is killed by a janitor attack. The town, therefore, doesn't know what that person's role is. However, since we softclaimed, it would be logical to assume that there was at least 1 member of the mafia in the group of generation II people because they killed that person to use his/her role as a false claim. Since there were 4 people to begin with in generation II and 1 was killed, it can be inferred that one of the remaining 3 people is scum. That 1 in 3 chance of lynching scum is significantly better than a 1 in 11 chance.
Reason 2. This is definitely not as influential, and probably less likely, as reason 1, but it is still worth noting. The softclaim would put an early lock on the mafia. It's probably unlikely that this would happen, but the mafia could potentially be caught offguard. A member of the scum could do quick research on pokemon and find out that there are 5 generations, and quickly choose one in fear that going last would make them appear more scummy. But it could turn out that everyone claims into even groups, except the scum who jumped the gun. In would then make that person stand out like a green whale in the middle of the desert. Again, consider this example for a better explanation:
Ex: There are 12 people in the game and we softclaim by generation. Results:
Generation I: 4 people
Generation II: 3 people
Generation III: 1 person
Generation IV: 4 people
It wouldn't really confirm anything because nobody knows how the mod set up the game, but it certainly would look like a major scum slip for the person who softclaimed early as generation III and was the only one. It's worth noting that it would be quite foolish for scum to lie about their softclaim to begin with (especially since there are over 100+ choices per generation), but it is possible and I'm relatively sure that I have seen it happen in the past.
So I had legitimate reasons for wanting a softclaim, but I wasn't jeopardizing anyone's sensitive role information in the process. I figured that the info claimed would either help point out some potential scum, or do nothing at all to help our cause while not harming it either. I assumed that we had absolutely nothing to lose by trying it, but its already too late for it to work since I just explained exactly how it could help the town. At this point, I feel like the softclaim would do harm because the mafia could now create a whole bunch of WIFOM since they know exactly what I am looking for.
You made assertions without evidence for a bad idea. What were you thinking when you made that suggestion, and why did you get so defensive when pressed about it?
Now that I got to this point in the post, I forgot why I split up the quote in the first place. If you still don't what I was thinking, just reread the wall of text above. I'm not entirely sure what "assertions without evidence" you are talking about, but to me, it seemed like a great idea. I wouldn't say that I got "so defensive," but to answer your question, I just really wanted this softclaim to work.
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"I'm a compulsive liar no matter what team I play on, but I'm trying to get better about it."
I don't care if you keep talking about it, but you need to pay attention to the rest of the game at the same time. You've been ignoring everything else discussed thus far in the game and some of it is about you directly.
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I'll bet you wish you had a non-unglued/unhinged card that shared your first name.
I haven't been ignoring it; I just didn't have anything that I thought was relevant to say about it.
I didn't realize that you were expecting me to comment about the whole RVS thing, but I suppose I can if it will humor you.
I've never been a big proponent of randomly voting people at the start of a game*, but I have been known to go along with it on some occasions, provided that I can find some witty/humorous way to go about doing it. In this game, however, I saw that no other player had yet posted, so I saw it as a golden opportunity to drop the perfect line of motivation, and I did that as quickly as possible so that I wouldn't miss my chance. I'm sorry for breaking your cherished norm, but quite frankly, I see the RVS as something trivial. Why bother randomly voting for someone if the odds are greatly against you actually picking scum?
*I did not know what RVS actually stood for until I opened up that link earlier. I had seen it referenced in other games 'round these parts, and I had deduced that it had something to do with randomly voting people at the beginning of a game to spark discussion, but I wan't sure of the precise words that made up the acronym.
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"I'm a compulsive liar no matter what team I play on, but I'm trying to get better about it."
I fully expected to remove my vote here but you know what I still think you are scum.
Why I applied my vote: I thought you thought Arcadic's vote on BlackVise was serious, which would have been a slip on what you know. If it was the other vote, there was still the odd thing about the second vote invalidating the first.
Also, pressure. I figured pressure would do some of my job for me, and that's why I didn't say my reason for voting you immediately.
You answered that okay enough, except that there's a contradiction in your thinking, you recognize that contradiction is there, but you are pushing a serious vote anyway despite that contradiction.
Finally, I know you have experience. There is no way you actually think people not voting in RVS indicates scum because you have to know some people don't vote in RVS as town for one reason or another.
IGMEOY. (Which means i'm actually watching korean TV because quantum)
Why not? It could potentially be a good method for us to catch scum. And besides, just saying the generation of you pokemon wouldn't reveal anything about your role or put you in any danger. There are over 100+ pokemon from each generation.
This is completely relevant! I don't know how I could talk about anything more relevant!
Are you imploding because i caught you with 1 post? Why have you refused to talk about anything posted and simply ignored the posts in the thread? Why would you ever think a claim of that nature is a good idea? Why does my thumb hurt?
Jeez, i caught scum on the FIRST POST after a log hiatus.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
This post is the first problem post. GM makes a comment like he's surprised that his vote target was voted prior but the surprise is clearly artificial. If he were genuinely surprised, why wouldn't he have removed his vote right then? I can see no townie reasoning for doing this. However, the scum motivation is simple: See if a wagon festers, then call it bad (because 2 RVS votes on it) and try to gain town credit for it. This sort of behavior is also in line with GM's scum meta, IIRC. He's being too cautious/self-conscious with what he's doing (such as the above quote) for townGM.
UNVOTE
pretty sure KK's main strategy is to implode on Day 1 every game, hasn't had any bearing on his alignment yet
I'm moving this weekend and I'm actually not positive how the internet situation will shake up, I'll stay afloat at work as much as possible
Only comments on the KoolKoal situation when there's much more to talk about...such as hansanator's suggestion and the Teia wagon that was beginning to develop. In addition, the drive-by nature of the KoolKoal comment is another distancing attempt from a wagon, whether it's a bad one or one of a scumbuddy's. Hey GM, when do you think RVS ended and why?
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Answering Wheat's request for research: Chime Mafia had two people post non-voting rvs votes. Cyouni was town, Archmage Eternal was that game's equivalent of scum.
Hobbit: AUJ Mafia DRey didn't vote in rvs, he was town. Being DRey might make this an outlier rather than a good example.
Vanilla Mafia 2 Archmage Eternal doesn't vote in RVs again, town this time.
I tried to stick with people who made rvs quality but still non-voting posts. I skipped over examples that could be considered caused by other posts when either responding to or joining in on another player's rvs post as that is different from hansanator's post.
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I'll bet you wish you had a non-unglued/unhinged card that shared your first name.
This post is the first problem post. GM makes a comment like he's surprised that his vote target was voted prior but the surprise is clearly artificial. If he were genuinely surprised, why wouldn't he have removed his vote right then?
And you can't think of a reason why town wouldn't unvote here? C'mon, Iso, even Occam's points to the town reason.
It's too bad I've let my Mafia Guide to Iso languish but I'm pretty sure if I hadn't you'd be turning up scum on two separate lines.
Answering Wheat's request for research: Chime Mafia had two people post non-voting rvs votes. Cyouni was town, Archmage Eternal was that game's equivalent of scum.
Hobbit: AUJ Mafia DRey didn't vote in rvs, he was town. Being DRey might make this an outlier rather than a good example.
Vanilla Mafia 2 Archmage Eternal doesn't vote in RVs again, town this time.
I tried to stick with people who made rvs quality but still non-voting posts. I skipped over examples that could be considered caused by other posts when either responding to or joining in on another player's rvs post as that is different from hansanator's post.
Like I said, its not some reliable way to catch scum, but a starting point, and in this case he handled the pressure by using his mass claim idea to basically active lurk rather than talk about anything relevant to the game until he got called on it.
Plenty of reason to keep the vote on him.
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I'll bet you wish you had a non-unglued/unhinged card that shared your first name.
Like I said, its not some reliable way to catch scum, but a starting point, and in this case he handled the pressure by using his mass claim idea to basically active lurk rather than talk about anything relevant to the game until he got called on it.
Plenty of reason to keep the vote on him.
That's reasonable.
I'm still watching both you and hansanator though.
This post is the first problem post. GM makes a comment like he's surprised that his vote target was voted prior but the surprise is clearly artificial. If he were genuinely surprised, why wouldn't he have removed his vote right then?
And you can't think of a reason why town wouldn't unvote here? C'mon, Iso, even Occam's points to the town reason.
It's too bad I've let my Mafia Guide to Iso languish but I'm pretty sure if I hadn't you'd be turning up scum on two separate lines.
Really? Because from what I recall, you've never played with GM before, and I've been in a game with scumGM at least twice now.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
And it still doesn't make sense to me why you think that if he was genuinely surprised he would unvote. Hell, if he DID unvote under that circumstance it'd look shiftier than if he hadn't.
This could be a mindset tell of not wanting to stick his neck out or get on someone's bad side.
You're still special pleading. If RVS tells are generally unreliable, how is this specific case reliable?
2) Deflecting assumes I avoid other questions at the same time, which I'm not. This is the second time you've misused the term.
Deflection isn't so narrow. When the subject is about oneself, attempting to shift the subject onto another is deflecting. But I'm not going to let this get dragged down by semantics so I'll shut up about it now.
I'm not entirely sure what "assertions without evidence" you are talking about, but to me, it seemed like a great idea. I wouldn't say that I got "so defensive," but to answer your question, I just really wanted this softclaim to work.
You were insisting, "This is completely relevant! I don't know how I could talk about anything more relevant!" Shouting it makes you seem defensive, and simply asserting its relevance does not back up an argument that it is indeed relevant.
Anyway, setup speculation aside, I don't see any actual scumhunting from you. So, let's see if we can kick something off: What reads do you have so far and why? How have you been trying to catch scum so far beyond this softclaim idea? What are your views on others' reads and actions?
-
I don't like Jay13x's posting so far. Granted, it's his first game, which makes him slightly harder to read, but this post looks like buddying. His other posting tends to look like activelurking. That said, it could just be a case of a newbie getting lost in his first game. Not enough to go on to establish a solid read yet. So, to you, I also ask what reads you have so far and why you have them. Also, what are your views on others' reads and actions?
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Actually, on a second read, it looks like I missed the quotes around "good." Although the point still stands that it's an unnecessary comment in that it's basically a way of saying "look at me, I'm town."
I'm not entirely sure what "assertions without evidence" you are talking about, but to me, it seemed like a great idea. I wouldn't say that I got "so defensive," but to answer your question, I just really wanted this softclaim to work.
You were insisting, "This is completely relevant! I don't know how I could talk about anything more relevant!" Shouting it makes you seem defensive, and simply asserting its relevance does not back up an argument that it is indeed relevant.
Fair enough. I now see how my inclusion of exclamation points could have that effect.
Anyway, setup speculation aside, I don't see any actual scumhunting from you. So, let's see if we can kick something off: What reads do you have so far and why? How have you been trying to catch scum so far beyond this softclaim idea? What are your views on others' reads and actions?
With all due respect, I'm not going to jump through hoops because you ask me to. I'm not going to try to fool anyone into thinking that I am scum hunting because I don't need to. I know that I'm playing my usual town game, and that's good enough for me. I'll openly admit that I suck at analyzing behavior, so I'm just not going to do it. But also, I'm not convinced that behavioral analysis actually works: in my brief experience here, not a single person has actually caught scum based on their actions or supposed "scum tells," yet I have seen numerous innocent people get mislynched due to these reasons. I don't intend on pressuring people to slip up, because that's not how I catch scum. But to answer your question, nobody has really jumped out at me as scum, so I haven't said anything in regards to that. If you just be patient, I'll let you know when I get some prominent reads. I feel that in time, they'll make themselves apparent.
I don't like Jay13x's posting so far. Granted, it's his first game, which makes him slightly harder to read, but this post looks like buddying. His other posting tends to look like activelurking. That said, it could just be a case of a newbie getting lost in his first game. Not enough to go on to establish a solid read yet. So, to you, I also ask what reads you have so far and why you have them. Also, what are your views on others' reads and actions?
That being said, I do have to disagree with you on Jay. At this point, he has been one of the only people that I consider leaning town. I feel that some of his noob posts could not easily be faked by scum. Of course my views are subject to change, but I feel that he has been kinda genuine so far.
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"I'm a compulsive liar no matter what team I play on, but I'm trying to get better about it."
OK. So. It's RVS, you decide to vote for one guy. Upon doing so, you see that someone else voted for that guy at the exact same time.
That's pretty surprising, right? I mean, it's pretty uncommon for that to happen. So you make a comment of being surprised, but because it's uncommon, and/or the guy has no danger of being lynched anyway, you leave it. This can happen for scum as well, but it's definitely not something to incriminate him over.
On the other hand, if you see someone else vote at the exact same time as scum you might go "whoa can't let too many RVS votes get on this guy or I may be noticed, better vote someone else".
As I think about it more there are some town motivations for unvoting too, such as worrying about the guy accidentally getting quicklynched if an actual wagon crops up behind the RVS votes.
But overall, I think Occam's doesn't point to your interpretation of events. Therefore, GM is not scum for this. And I have to say, I'm really worried that you're stretching this far to say that he is.
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Vote Count
hansanator (2): Jay13x, KoolKoal
Iso (1): kaburi
KoolKoal (3): BlackVise, Gerrard's Mom, Wheat_Grinder
BlackVise (1): Arcadic
Gerrard's Mom (1): Iso
Not Voting: hansanator, rianalnn, Teia Rabishu, void
Let me know if there are any issues with this count.
Reminder: Please bold both your votes and unvotes.
Ed: And one more reminder added regarding spectators.
Take a look at GM's posts and see what you find. He has a total of 2 posts.
I understand the vote for what I believe it is.
I'm pretty sure this is scum Void but I want to lynch GM first.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
For one thing, we have no reason to believe our generations matter. The flavor post makes no indication that we're not from the full 'dex.
:sneaky:unless you and your scumbuddies are the same generation!!!
@_kaburi_ on Twitter
Special thanks to Serrot_29 for Catbug'mrakul!
@_kaburi_ on Twitter
Special thanks to Serrot_29 for Catbug'mrakul!
- hansanator: What was up with that mass softclaim nonsense? How would it help catch scum if it wouldn't reveal anything about anyone's roles? You made assertions without evidence for a bad idea. What were you thinking when you made that suggestion, and why did you get so defensive when pressed about it?
- KoolKoal: Saying that Arcadic's first vote was serious is pretty weak, but what really raises a red flag for me is how he handled his mistaken vote for hans. He voted hans for not knowing how RVS tells work, despite later saying that, "I don't think RVS tells are very reliable, but they catch scum once in a while and give us a good jump-off point to get into the real meat of the game." This is what's known as special pleading: He's acknowledging the general case that RVS tells aren't reliable, while not giving justification to the claim that this case is exceptional—he restates his premises at one point, but he doesn't make the connection to how hans' lack of voting isn't a null tell. Oh, and the whole "laughing at tinypic" thing reeks of deflection. He looks very much like scum who got caught making a bad case and is now fumbling around trying to justify it.
Vote KoolKoal
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Why should I point out the various ways it could be a null tell for hans, the guy who's ignored the whole thing thus far rather than respond to me? In fact, I'd say by this point the fact that he's ignoring the point about his RVS posting and instead pushing for a useless mass-soft-flavorclaim is fairly damning. Please tell me what I was deflecting from, as deflecting has to do avoiding a line of questioning you should have a specific example for this.
lol
You said he "certainly should know how RVS works by now" and, more clearly, that "My reason for voting hans was that he's an experienced player who knows what rvs is, but doesn't join in on the voting. This could be a mindset tell of not wanting to stick his neck out or get on someone's bad side." In other words, you're voting him because you think he should've known better.
1) That's the opposite of what I asked. I said that you acknowledged the general case of RVS tells not being reliable, but you aren't saying why this instance is reliable.
2) So you respond to my case on you by trying to deflect onto hans? Get lynched.
Iso asked you if you're scum, and you laughed at the source of his picture. In other words, trying to use apparent humour to make the whole thing seem more humorous and deflect suspicion away from you.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Show me 3 games in which some players were around for RVS but did not vote. Mark how many were town and how many are scum.
Yeah no.
No.
hansanator doesn't make me feel good but I'm not sure yet.
Oh sweet Teia is scum. Unvote, Vote: Teia Rabishu.
I'll come back to KoolKoal later, after we lynch Teia.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
No.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I take it back I meant yes.
Unvote, Vote Teia
(seems legit)
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
TerribleBad at Magic since 1998.A Vorthos Guide to Magic Story | Twitter | Tumblr
[Primer] Krenko | Azor | Kess | Zacama | Kumena | Sram | The Ur-Dragon | Edgar Markov | Daretti | Marath
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
1) Oh, I got confused because I certainly did say how it could be a scum tell.
2) Deflecting assumes I avoid other questions at the same time, which I'm not. This is the second time you've misused the term.
First of all, I answered Iso's question :B.
Secondly, why would I be deflecting to direct suspicion away from me and simultaneously asking Iso to get more specific on his question to me multiple times, culminating in not even answering his question to his satisfaction? That's the opposite of deflecting.
You of all people should recognize that this is town Teia. (Though I'm agreeing with Void so far, probably because I took my only successful method of reading him from Dietryp. You're going to need to help me on GM though.)
@Wheat: *sigh* homework? fine I'll get on it.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
pretty sure KK's main strategy is to implode on Day 1 every game, hasn't had any bearing on his alignment yet
I'm moving this weekend and I'm actually not positive how the internet situation will shake up, I'll stay afloat at work as much as possible
Koolkoal beat me to it.
I know this isn't addressed to me but I wish I could read Mod Mafia 6.
But I know in my heart if I did have access to mod areas I'd just read Meg and Lanxal's liveplays of Katawa Shoujo and ignore all the mafia games.
I did, and still do, think that it was a brilliant idea. I guess everyone is adamantly against it, so I might as well share my thoughts about it. Keep in mind that if I had stated my precise reasons for proposing the softclaim, the mafia would have learned how to avoid/mislead us.
I said it could potentially help us because there may or may not be patterns in the generations each of our pokemon are from. The best case scenario would be that the mod made it so that there were an equal number from each generation. I know that this would be unlikely, but I figured that it was worth a shot to find out.
Reason 1. The paramount way this could help us is if there was a mafia janitor in this game. I don't know how common they are on this site (I haven't seen one yet in my 3 games here), but they were quite common on the site that I used to play on. This softclaim method would thin the number of people that the scum could be. Consider this example to hopefully explain the phenomenon better:
Ex: There are 12 people in the game and we softclaim by generation. Results:
Generation I: 4 people
Generation II: 4 people
Generation IV: 4 people
Now after night 1, a person from generation II is killed by a janitor attack. The town, therefore, doesn't know what that person's role is. However, since we softclaimed, it would be logical to assume that there was at least 1 member of the mafia in the group of generation II people because they killed that person to use his/her role as a false claim. Since there were 4 people to begin with in generation II and 1 was killed, it can be inferred that one of the remaining 3 people is scum. That 1 in 3 chance of lynching scum is significantly better than a 1 in 11 chance.
Reason 2. This is definitely not as influential, and probably less likely, as reason 1, but it is still worth noting. The softclaim would put an early lock on the mafia. It's probably unlikely that this would happen, but the mafia could potentially be caught offguard. A member of the scum could do quick research on pokemon and find out that there are 5 generations, and quickly choose one in fear that going last would make them appear more scummy. But it could turn out that everyone claims into even groups, except the scum who jumped the gun. In would then make that person stand out like a green whale in the middle of the desert. Again, consider this example for a better explanation:
Ex: There are 12 people in the game and we softclaim by generation. Results:
Generation I: 4 people
Generation II: 3 people
Generation III: 1 person
Generation IV: 4 people
It wouldn't really confirm anything because nobody knows how the mod set up the game, but it certainly would look like a major scum slip for the person who softclaimed early as generation III and was the only one. It's worth noting that it would be quite foolish for scum to lie about their softclaim to begin with (especially since there are over 100+ choices per generation), but it is possible and I'm relatively sure that I have seen it happen in the past.
So I had legitimate reasons for wanting a softclaim, but I wasn't jeopardizing anyone's sensitive role information in the process. I figured that the info claimed would either help point out some potential scum, or do nothing at all to help our cause while not harming it either. I assumed that we had absolutely nothing to lose by trying it, but its already too late for it to work since I just explained exactly how it could help the town. At this point, I feel like the softclaim would do harm because the mafia could now create a whole bunch of WIFOM since they know exactly what I am looking for.
Now that I got to this point in the post, I forgot why I split up the quote in the first place. If you still don't what I was thinking, just reread the wall of text above. I'm not entirely sure what "assertions without evidence" you are talking about, but to me, it seemed like a great idea. I wouldn't say that I got "so defensive," but to answer your question, I just really wanted this softclaim to work.
Previous Mafia Experience:
Mafia aligned: 2/0 -100%
Town aligned: 4/3 - 57%
I plan on discontinuing discussion on it when people stop asking questions about it.
Previous Mafia Experience:
Mafia aligned: 2/0 -100%
Town aligned: 4/3 - 57%
I didn't realize that you were expecting me to comment about the whole RVS thing, but I suppose I can if it will humor you.
I've never been a big proponent of randomly voting people at the start of a game*, but I have been known to go along with it on some occasions, provided that I can find some witty/humorous way to go about doing it. In this game, however, I saw that no other player had yet posted, so I saw it as a golden opportunity to drop the perfect line of motivation, and I did that as quickly as possible so that I wouldn't miss my chance. I'm sorry for breaking your cherished norm, but quite frankly, I see the RVS as something trivial. Why bother randomly voting for someone if the odds are greatly against you actually picking scum?
*I did not know what RVS actually stood for until I opened up that link earlier. I had seen it referenced in other games 'round these parts, and I had deduced that it had something to do with randomly voting people at the beginning of a game to spark discussion, but I wan't sure of the precise words that made up the acronym.
Previous Mafia Experience:
Mafia aligned: 2/0 -100%
Town aligned: 4/3 - 57%
Behavior analysis can find the scum almost every time when it is correctly applied. Probabilities have only a finite chance.
I want to talk about claiming, but please stop talking about claiming so i can stop talking about claiming.???
Goodnight my sweet VT.
Because quantum mafia, you are actually voting yourself and a picture of a bass signed by Maro.
Have i ever played a game of mafia with you? Have you ever read any of my games? Serious question.
IGMEOY. (Which means i'm actually watching korean TV because quantum)
Are you imploding because i caught you with 1 post? Why have you refused to talk about anything posted and simply ignored the posts in the thread? Why would you ever think a claim of that nature is a good idea? Why does my thumb hurt?
Jeez, i caught scum on the FIRST POST after a log hiatus.
unvote vote Han
My wife was on MTV with this video.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BUutIZg2EpU
This guy is scum for sure.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Nothing to see here.
This post is the first problem post. GM makes a comment like he's surprised that his vote target was voted prior but the surprise is clearly artificial. If he were genuinely surprised, why wouldn't he have removed his vote right then? I can see no townie reasoning for doing this. However, the scum motivation is simple: See if a wagon festers, then call it bad (because 2 RVS votes on it) and try to gain town credit for it. This sort of behavior is also in line with GM's scum meta, IIRC. He's being too cautious/self-conscious with what he's doing (such as the above quote) for townGM.
Only comments on the KoolKoal situation when there's much more to talk about...such as hansanator's suggestion and the Teia wagon that was beginning to develop. In addition, the drive-by nature of the KoolKoal comment is another distancing attempt from a wagon, whether it's a bad one or one of a scumbuddy's. Hey GM, when do you think RVS ended and why?
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I've never played Mafia before. I just wanted to confirm something before I decided anything for myself.
I have played Werewolf (the card version of this where you play with actual people nearby) a lot.
It's a lot harder when you can't read people.
TerribleBad at Magic since 1998.A Vorthos Guide to Magic Story | Twitter | Tumblr
[Primer] Krenko | Azor | Kess | Zacama | Kumena | Sram | The Ur-Dragon | Edgar Markov | Daretti | Marath
Chime Mafia had two people post non-voting rvs votes. Cyouni was town, Archmage Eternal was that game's equivalent of scum.
Hobbit: AUJ Mafia DRey didn't vote in rvs, he was town. Being DRey might make this an outlier rather than a good example.
Vanilla Mafia 2 Archmage Eternal doesn't vote in RVs again, town this time.
I tried to stick with people who made rvs quality but still non-voting posts. I skipped over examples that could be considered caused by other posts when either responding to or joining in on another player's rvs post as that is different from hansanator's post.
And you can't think of a reason why town wouldn't unvote here? C'mon, Iso, even Occam's points to the town reason.
It's too bad I've let my Mafia Guide to Iso languish but I'm pretty sure if I hadn't you'd be turning up scum on two separate lines.
I would but I'm only finitely sure that it's actually occurring and I don't want to tell Teia lest she stop doing it.
After a few more posts from Teia (no more than 5-10) I'll answer no problem.
And yet, still voting for hansanator.
Plenty of reason to keep the vote on him.
That's reasonable.
I'm still watching both you and hansanator though.
Really? Because from what I recall, you've never played with GM before, and I've been in a game with scumGM at least twice now.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
One, this is an odd statement coming from a fellow 'good' pokemon. And suspiciously like fishing for info.
Haha, I meant looking for non-verbal tells. Someone who thinks and is careful is a lot harder to follow in this.
TerribleBad at Magic since 1998.A Vorthos Guide to Magic Story | Twitter | Tumblr
[Primer] Krenko | Azor | Kess | Zacama | Kumena | Sram | The Ur-Dragon | Edgar Markov | Daretti | Marath
Yeah but unless one of those wasn't a mod game (and thus publicly viewable) then I don't have the luxury of knowing that and I don't trust you.
You're still special pleading. If RVS tells are generally unreliable, how is this specific case reliable?
Deflection isn't so narrow. When the subject is about oneself, attempting to shift the subject onto another is deflecting. But I'm not going to let this get dragged down by semantics so I'll shut up about it now.
You were insisting, "This is completely relevant! I don't know how I could talk about anything more relevant!" Shouting it makes you seem defensive, and simply asserting its relevance does not back up an argument that it is indeed relevant.
Anyway, setup speculation aside, I don't see any actual scumhunting from you. So, let's see if we can kick something off: What reads do you have so far and why? How have you been trying to catch scum so far beyond this softclaim idea? What are your views on others' reads and actions?
-
I don't like Jay13x's posting so far. Granted, it's his first game, which makes him slightly harder to read, but this post looks like buddying. His other posting tends to look like active lurking. That said, it could just be a case of a newbie getting lost in his first game. Not enough to go on to establish a solid read yet. So, to you, I also ask what reads you have so far and why you have them. Also, what are your views on others' reads and actions?
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Actually, on a second read, it looks like I missed the quotes around "good." Although the point still stands that it's an unnecessary comment in that it's basically a way of saying "look at me, I'm town."
Fair enough. I now see how my inclusion of exclamation points could have that effect.
With all due respect, I'm not going to jump through hoops because you ask me to. I'm not going to try to fool anyone into thinking that I am scum hunting because I don't need to. I know that I'm playing my usual town game, and that's good enough for me. I'll openly admit that I suck at analyzing behavior, so I'm just not going to do it. But also, I'm not convinced that behavioral analysis actually works: in my brief experience here, not a single person has actually caught scum based on their actions or supposed "scum tells," yet I have seen numerous innocent people get mislynched due to these reasons. I don't intend on pressuring people to slip up, because that's not how I catch scum. But to answer your question, nobody has really jumped out at me as scum, so I haven't said anything in regards to that. If you just be patient, I'll let you know when I get some prominent reads. I feel that in time, they'll make themselves apparent.
That being said, I do have to disagree with you on Jay. At this point, he has been one of the only people that I consider leaning town. I feel that some of his noob posts could not easily be faked by scum. Of course my views are subject to change, but I feel that he has been kinda genuine so far.
Previous Mafia Experience:
Mafia aligned: 2/0 -100%
Town aligned: 4/3 - 57%
OK. So. It's RVS, you decide to vote for one guy. Upon doing so, you see that someone else voted for that guy at the exact same time.
That's pretty surprising, right? I mean, it's pretty uncommon for that to happen. So you make a comment of being surprised, but because it's uncommon, and/or the guy has no danger of being lynched anyway, you leave it. This can happen for scum as well, but it's definitely not something to incriminate him over.
On the other hand, if you see someone else vote at the exact same time as scum you might go "whoa can't let too many RVS votes get on this guy or I may be noticed, better vote someone else".
As I think about it more there are some town motivations for unvoting too, such as worrying about the guy accidentally getting quicklynched if an actual wagon crops up behind the RVS votes.
But overall, I think Occam's doesn't point to your interpretation of events. Therefore, GM is not scum for this. And I have to say, I'm really worried that you're stretching this far to say that he is.