the thing about scooze is that he doesnt need an established meta to be good. He becomes better in one that he can distrupt interactions but creatures will die. They will be in the graveyard. He will get bigger and net you some life. That WILL happen.
That is true. Yeah maybe I counted him out too quickly. He is really good, I'm not denying that.
I had him in my first draft list on the same premise that creatures WILL be dying, thats a fact. So maybe it's time to squeeze him back in.
Not tested much, but had nice results against Esper Control (which I think will be a strong presence in the new standard). The sideboard is still sketchy.
That is true. Yeah maybe I counted him out too quickly. He is really good, I'm not denying that.
I had him in my first draft list on the same premise that creatures WILL be dying, thats a fact. So maybe it's time to squeeze him back in.
Yea I was playing him in naya(my pet deck) and he wasnt as good there(with the amount of amazing 2 drops naya has). But I find the quality of r/g creatures def went down post-rotation. Lost Strangleroot/flinthoof/hellrider/pillar/kessig.
Im super curious about this deck and will likely be testing it this friday against naya to see how that matchup is.
It is possible that I'm going too hard on being a synergy based aggro deck and should just beef up like the other decks in this thread or go faster like the RDW lists I've been seeing, but I like the sweet spot in between where I have a good solid early game aggressive plan with Domri and Puprh to provide both card advantage and late game reach respectively. Sylvan Caryatid felt a bit out of place here, but it does evolve experiment one up to 3/3 and can get a purph into play early or simply block for a domri. Hammer has been fantastic. It is a shame that it generally does nothing in multiples.
Yo dawg Frites Player, we herd you liked getting 1 for 3'd by Angel of Serenity, so we put some Angels in your Angel (Avacyn) so you can get chained while you get exiled. ANGELCEPTION.
Thanks Cassial, I updated the primer guys. Great community effort thus far.
I'm also going to throw up a version I'm going to test, see how it works. I will keep all the versions of the deck saved on my comp, just in case we need a point of reference.
Having second thought on 4CMC Ghor-Clan Rampager, Polis Crusher, Ember Swallower, and Polukranos. I think I might go to Swallower and Polukranos on main deck instead, mainly because of a bigger body that survives from Mizzium Mortars and Warleader's Helix.
As much as I like Hammer of Purphoros, I think current creatures not suitable to pair with it.
I concur.
@Apoc It's a great card don't get me wrong but, don't feel it deserves a slot in this deck. If it were to see any play it would probably be just a 1 of. Mistcutter Hydra//Stormbreath Dragon is all the Haste I need.
BTE is a bad card imo (for the midrange), I will be replacing it with scavenging ooze, furthermore I will probably play Ghor-clan instead of polis, I've never lost a matchup against control, polis just puts that matchup over the top easy for us....useless for everything else really. I will probably be moving to another 4 drop instead of ghor clan, doesn't really fit well with the mid-range plan but he's what im putting in for now. Considering poluranous and ember swallower.
Increased number of bloodrushers for the deck using 2 each of red and green, going low on bloodrush cost for early effect, can be hardcast if needed.
Polis Crusher I know what you're thinking, why this card? I think it has the potential to be a good fit. 4/4 for cmc4 is fine, and pro-enchantments means it can dodge the gods, will need further playtesting, could be good.
Stormbreath Dragon seems a decent shoe-in for Thundermaw at this point, and the pro-white certainly helps.
Scavenging Ooze does what it does best, getting better value out of bloodrushed cards
Bow of Nylea is replacing Mizzium Mortars in the list, though Mortars will likely be sideboard. Deathtouch with trample seems pretty good to me, not to mention card utility.
Legion Loyalist plays nicely with the trample/first strike on batallion, and looks to play nicely with Xenagos, The Revellerwho will probably be in the SB to swap for game 2 with Domri Rade
Garruk, Caller of Beasts played well in my previous R/G aggressive midrange build to refill hands after bloodrushing, will keep as a 2-of for now.
Cards currently being considered for sideboard: Mizzium Mortars: Answers a lot of threats, would exchange 1:1 with Bow of Nylea game 2 if needed.
Xenagos, The Reveler: Allows for ramping, can bump up Savageborn Hydras, 2/2 tokens play nice with Legion Loyalist. Exchanges 1:1 with Domri Rade for Game 2. Swapped Xenagos with Domri. Domri is now in SB and comes in game 2.
Pithing Needle: Takes care of pesky planeswalkers, used to hose Nephalia Drownyards, glad that's gone.
Ratchet Bomb: Good vs. tokens, enchantments, really any threat without another way to answer with this deck
Destructive Revelry: RG, destroys enchantment or artifact, and shocks opponent? Yes please.
this is the list I've been testing so far, figured I should copy it over here.
Some general thoughts I've been having in testing, seeing if anybody feels the same, this is by no means "this card is bad in my build, so this card is bad", I'm really trying to do some very broad evaluations of our archetype so far. Some of these are comparisons to two totally different things, and some of them are standalone evaluations. I'm also not saying any of this to "shoot our archetype down" or anything - these are hypothetical big questions to more than anything encourage critical thinking, and getting the absolute most out of what we're doing.
Yes, I really feel the two cards want to do entirely different goals. There have been some mentions of Garruk + Xenagos, and I personally feel that may be more on the right track. My simplest reasoning for this, let's assume you T1 Elvish Mystic, T2 Domri Rade, so far a "nutdraw" right? T3 you proceed to slam down Xenagos, the Reveler and then...+1 for 1 more mana that turn? Okay, so getting 1 mana and getting to +1 this turn isn't exactly worth it, so we'll make a Satyr token. That token isn't likely going to swing in if your opponent has at least a Grizzly Bears on their side of the table, so all you've done is spent your first 3 turns "setting up". Now our T4, after all this setup, it's completely on you to resolve something with Monstrosity, and curve up into it. Or, if hypothetically we were playing Domri only, and more Bloodrush/Gruul creatures, we'd be attacking by T3 most likely, or playing more dudes.
My point is that Xenagos is wanting you to spend your *first two or three turns summoning creatures* rather than *creature + Domri Rade*. *He will have impact the turn he comes down* if you have say, a 1 drop, a Burning-Tree Emissary+another two drop on field. The ideal scenario (IMO) for utilizing Xenagos is having at least 2-3 creatures already in play *before* you drop him, and when you do, you should be able to +1 him, and still use 3-4 mana that turn from Xenagos. I'm fully aware that NOT playing Domri Rade at all, and setting up 3+ creatures on field is asking for overcommitment, but *consider the overall card flow* Xenagos is asking us to do here - he wants us to aggressively dump cards for mana early on, and then it's up to us to turn mana into more cards - enter Garruk, Caller of Beasts. It's the same principle with regular mana dorks, or playing excess mana dudes - spending cards to accelerate your mana, and then use the mana later to get more cards.
#2 - A Domri/Xenagos "Hybrid" deck -
I fully think this is another viable *route*, aka some lists with 3-4x Domri, and 2x of Xenagos. Ultimately what I'm calling to, is having an acute awareness of what your deck is focused on, if you're focused on Domri, you better get to attacking the turn after you play him. Domri really is about Gruul, and Bloodrush is the mechanic he both supports and his purpose isn't to draw a bunch of cards like Garruk, it's to keep the hits/bloodrushes coming in steadily. If the meta is right to go fast or try to go under, Domri is where you want to be, with ideally 4x of your 5 drop curve topper (Stormbreath Dragon) as the finishing hasty reach. I'm not personally a fan of this approach, but early results are definitely promising, that a "Kiblar" build could be a thing early in Theros Standard.
#3 - Building a deck for explosiveness vs consistency;
I personally don't feel like Domri Rade is where I want to be right now, for one very subtle but simple reason - playing a 2 color aggro deck is significantly slower than it used to be. If you get that T1 Elvish Mystic, how many basic Forest(s) are you having to run? Do you shock yourself T1 just to get that T2 Domri? That's if your red source isn't coming in tapped on T2. What I'm saying is, a LOT of factors need to go right for you to get an "explosive" start these days, and that's with a lot less hasty creatures than we're used to (G/R Kibler Gruul, current standard). My overall big (rhetorical) question is, if playing an explosive aggressive midrange deck, can it still get the job done on an average sequence of draws? And the real question that follows that one, if I'm trying to go faster, perhaps I should be playing Mono-Red because they are essentially doing what I'm trying to do, except more consistently/better?
#4) *MOST IDEAL* Early mana curve considerations -
If going with Xenagos, is it even worth it to have Elvish Mystic? Seriously, I can't answer this one. I know it's heresy to suggest not having them, but, my biggest reason I'm questioning this, if I'm not playing Domri Rade, a T1 mana elf does not accelerate me into any real 3 drops in a midrangier shell. Xenagos will still come down T3 at best, or T4. I've had too many games of T1 elf, T2 land go. Also, I don't like shocking for that T1 mana guy if I'm not following it up with a strong 3 drop the next turn, not to mention we have a ton of comes into play tapped lands now/getting the T1 mana guy isn't something to count on as much as it used to be. If nothing else, turn one feels like *the* turn to play your scryland, and figure out how to sculpt your hand/board the next few turns.
Yo dawg Frites Player, we herd you liked getting 1 for 3'd by Angel of Serenity, so we put some Angels in your Angel (Avacyn) so you can get chained while you get exiled. ANGELCEPTION.
Looks better and faster than the first version but Im not sure about the Ooze. What do you think duds?
I think this is on the right track of being really aggressive in this strategy. Boon Satyr is a really good card, almost close to MD him myself, though I have tested against U/W and RDW, I think I want to be more midrange aggressive in the sense I just want my guys to be huge and avoid Mizzium Mortars to be quite truthful. Without Boros Reckoner red has nothing but 2 for 1 my monster. Which is totally okay with me. Though i'm just saying what works for me, theres a more aggresive build and a more midrange build.
Some general thoughts I've been having in testing, seeing if anybody feels the same, this is by no means "this card is bad in my build, so this card is bad", I'm really trying to do some very broad evaluations of our archetype so far. Some of these are comparisons to two totally different things, and some of them are standalone evaluations. I'm also not saying any of this to "shoot our archetype down" or anything - these are hypothetical big questions to more than anything encourage critical thinking, and getting the absolute most out of what we're doing.
Yes, I really feel the two cards want to do entirely different goals. There have been some mentions of Garruk + Xenagos, and I personally feel that may be more on the right track. My simplest reasoning for this, let's assume you T1 Elvish Mystic, T2 Domri Rade, so far a "nutdraw" right? T3 you proceed to slam down Xenagos, the Reveler and then...+1 for 1 more mana that turn? Okay, so getting 1 mana and getting to +1 this turn isn't exactly worth it, so we'll make a Satyr token. That token isn't likely going to swing in if your opponent has at least a Grizzly Bears on their side of the table, so all you've done is spent your first 3 turns "setting up". Now our T4, after all this setup, it's completely on you to resolve something with Monstrosity, and curve up into it. Or, if hypothetically we were playing Domri only, and more Bloodrush/Gruul creatures, we'd be attacking by T3 most likely, or playing more dudes.
My point is that Xenagos is wanting you to spend your *first two or three turns summoning creatures* rather than *creature + Domri Rade*. *He will have impact the turn he comes down* if you have say, a 1 drop, a Burning-Tree Emissary+another two drop on field. The ideal scenario (IMO) for utilizing Xenagos is having at least 2-3 creatures already in play *before* you drop him, and when you do, you should be able to +1 him, and still use 3-4 mana that turn from Xenagos. I'm fully aware that NOT playing Domri Rade at all, and setting up 3+ creatures on field is asking for overcommitment, but *consider the overall card flow* Xenagos is asking us to do here - he wants us to aggressively dump cards for mana early on, and then it's up to us to turn mana into more cards - enter Garruk, Caller of Beasts. It's the same principle with regular mana dorks, or playing excess mana dudes - spending cards to accelerate your mana, and then use the mana later to get more cards.
#2 - A Domri/Xenagos "Hybrid" deck -
I fully think this is another viable *route*, aka some lists with 3-4x Domri, and 2x of Xenagos. Ultimately what I'm calling to, is having an acute awareness of what your deck is focused on, if you're focused on Domri, you better get to attacking the turn after you play him. Domri really is about Gruul, and Bloodrush is the mechanic he both supports and his purpose isn't to draw a bunch of cards like Garruk, it's to keep the hits/bloodrushes coming in steadily. If the meta is right to go fast or try to go under, Domri is where you want to be, with ideally 4x of your 5 drop curve topper (Stormbreath Dragon) as the finishing hasty reach. I'm not personally a fan of this approach, but early results are definitely promising, that a "Kiblar" build could be a thing early in Theros Standard.
#3 - Building a deck for explosiveness vs consistency;
I personally don't feel like Domri Rade is where I want to be right now, for one very subtle but simple reason - playing a 2 color aggro deck is significantly slower than it used to be. If you get that T1 Elvish Mystic, how many basic Forest(s) are you having to run? Do you shock yourself T1 just to get that T2 Domri? That's if your red source isn't coming in tapped on T2. What I'm saying is, a LOT of factors need to go right for you to get an "explosive" start these days, and that's with a lot less hasty creatures than we're used to (G/R Kibler Gruul, current standard). My overall big (rhetorical) question is, if playing an explosive aggressive midrange deck, can it still get the job done on an average sequence of draws? And the real question that follows that one, if I'm trying to go faster, perhaps I should be playing Mono-Red because they are essentially doing what I'm trying to do, except more consistently/better?
#4) *MOST IDEAL* Early mana curve considerations -
If going with Xenagos, is it even worth it to have Elvish Mystic? Seriously, I can't answer this one. I know it's heresy to suggest not having them, but, my biggest reason I'm questioning this, if I'm not playing Domri Rade, a T1 mana elf does not accelerate me into any real 3 drops in a midrangier shell. Xenagos will still come down T3 at best, or T4. I've had too many games of T1 elf, T2 land go. Also, I don't like shocking for that T1 mana guy if I'm not following it up with a strong 3 drop the next turn, not to mention we have a ton of comes into play tapped lands now/getting the T1 mana guy isn't something to count on as much as it used to be. If nothing else, turn one feels like *the* turn to play your scryland, and figure out how to sculpt your hand/board the next few turns.
Cassial, very good points. I would have to say these are the things I have been mulling over myself. I fully understand it's not an "end all be all" debate. This strategy is versitile in the sense if you feel you want to be a bit more aggresive you can, or more midrange you can. Theyre both using high impact creatures, just as you said. One will be more focused around Domri and the other Xenagos.
Though if we look back on page 2 and over on Magic-League, one user pulled Domri & Xenagos off in the same deck. So it can be viable. Again, it's not end all be all, but it can work. It's only one tournament but at the very least it was 5 rounds. So theres something to be pulled from.
From further testing tonight tackling what I thought would be a dreaded matchup is U/W Control. I can say that I liked Domri AND Xenagos here, because both are good in this match up. Domri feeds me creatures, Xenagos creates creatures. It's win-win. I'll post more tomorrow morning on the testing results. I will say it is a race of time until Elspeth 3.0 hits...unless you're holding the game ending Stormbreath Dragon, it's not going to be good.
**I will say this...I do like more of what your first list you posted Cassial, I felt I always wanted my creatures to only absolutely be able to get killed by Hero's Downfall or a Doom blade. I want them as resiliant as I can in combat (aggro), and for them to have to use a 1 for 1 on my creature (control). It felt that I had more threats then they had answers, especially if they need to Detention Sphere Domri.**
That being said...in the area that I live in and plan on going to 2013 States. Blue is everywhere, people just love their blue in the NY/CT/RI area. So I feel Domri/Xenagos split is maybe where I want to be. If not, then definatly Xenagos...if I decide to make that transition my list would look like this:
Thats where I would sort of want to be if I was leaning more to using Xenagos, I would just want all the great 4 drop/5 drop guys. I want all my creatures to have high P/T and while I'm more mid-range, it's still holding an aggressive playstyle and not totally "going rampy". I feel keeping an aggresive premise is where R/G wants to be. Whether it be more focused on Domri/Xenagos or Domri + Xenagos. I think there's room for all three, though one will probably end up being more favorable depending on what you feel is your specific playstyle and area of meta.
Again looking at the M-L trial 1st place list is a great starting point.
By the way, what list were you testing/testing against? Cassial?
Which build did you test? What changes did you make and why? More importantly, what did you test against?
I think this is on the right track of being really aggressive in this strategy. Boon Satyr is a really good card, almost close to MD him myself, though I have tested against U/W and RDW, I think I want to be more midrange aggressive in the sense I just want my guys to be huge and avoid Mizzium Mortars to be quite truthful. Without Boros Reckoner red has nothing but 2 for 1 my monster. Which is totally okay with me. Though i'm just saying what works for me, theres a more aggresive build and a more midrange build.
Cassial, very good points. I would have to say these are the things I have been mulling over myself. I fully understand it's not an "end all be all" debate. This strategy is versitile in the sense if you feel you want to be a bit more aggresive you can, or more midrange you can. Theyre both using high impact creatures, just as you said. One will be more focused around Domri and the other Xenagos.
Though if we look back on page 2 and over on Magic-League, one user pulled Domri & Xenagos off in the same deck. So it can be viable. Again, it's not end all be all, but it can work. It's only one tournament but at the very least it was 5 rounds. So theres something to be pulled from.
From further testing tonight tackling what I thought would be a dreaded matchup is U/W Control. I can say that I liked Domri AND Xenagos here, because both are good in this match up. Domri feeds me creatures, Xenagos creates creatures. It's win-win. I'll post more tomorrow morning on the testing results. I will say it is a race of time until Elspeth 3.0 hits...unless you're holding the game ending Stormbreath Dragon, it's not going to be good.
**I will say this...I do like more of what your first list you posted Cassial, I felt I always wanted my creatures to only absolutely be able to get killed by Hero's Downfall or a Doom blade. I want them as resiliant as I can in combat (aggro), and for them to have to use a 1 for 1 on my creature (control). It felt that I had more threats then they had answers, especially if they need to Detention Sphere Domri.**
That being said...in the area that I live in and plan on going to 2013 States. Blue is everywhere, people just love their blue in the NY/CT/RI area. So I feel Domri/Xenagos split is maybe where I want to be. If not, then definatly Xenagos...if I decide to make that transition my list would look like this:
Thats where I would sort of want to be if I was leaning more to using Xenagos, I would just want all the great 4 drop/5 drop guys. I want all my creatures to have high P/T and while I'm more mid-range, it's still holding an aggressive playstyle and not totally "going rampy". I feel keeping an aggresive premise is where R/G wants to be. Whether it be more focused on Domri/Xenagos or Domri + Xenagos. I think there's room for all three, though one will probably end up being more favorable depending on what you feel is your specific playstyle and area of meta.
Again looking at the M-L trial 1st place list is a great starting point.
By the way, what list were you testing/testing against? Cassial?
My build is in the above post #32. I tried to use a slightly different set of creatures than the common RG decks currently using. In a mirror match, if they manage to drop the dragon on turn 3, I too manage to drop colossus on turn 3 and got the advantage. I choose to run creatures that dodges miz mortars. Hydras in main is because I feel more at ease against control decks, and also it can be dropped at any turn. Want to whack early, drop it early as 2/2 or 3/3. Want to swing huge, drop it late.
@Seton - I wasn't testing any single list in particular when I made these observations - I've tinkered with the shell of the Gruul deck endlessly, but stuff like T1 checkland or T2 checkland preventing your T2 Domri (when you want it) applies to any version.
This morning I watched a SCG VS video with BBD trying a Domri/Xenagos "Hybrid", and was immediately inspired. Link:
I really think he's got the most solid curve I've seen yet. Despite how much I've tried the go big approach, it isn't consistent enough, and I don't care much for perfect BTE explosive openings either/mediocre games the rest of the time, his build really seems rock solid consistent.
Anyway, here's BBD's list, and then I'll merge it with my own and quip a little on the tighter synergies I discovered;
Noteworthy cards/interactions their video showed me:
I highly encourage anyone to watch these VS vids, while I wasn't impressed with the Jund deck at all, I think you'll see what I mean that BBD's list just flowed so well.
Strong points about their matchups;
-Boon Satyr - was perhaps one of the strongest cards, and may be one of the most important cards in any grindy/control matchup we face. Boon Satyr's obvious advantages aside, he provides 4 more cards in the deck that help you not overcommit, but also he indirectly makes Ghor-Clan Rampager MUCH BETTER in your deck again. I'm happy to hardcast Ghor-Clan if I can Bestow it later, and this allows a lot more flexibility in lines of play - sometimes you do need to hardcast that rampager, and bestowing a GCR is just so strong if you had to summon the rampager first. 8 Effective sources of Bloodrush now, and one of them is a flash creature too.
-Ruric Thar, the Unbowed - Mr. Thar being slammed down on T3 or T4 is atrocious to most any deck right now, and he is plain well positioned at the moment IMO, unless Master of Cruelties sees a massive surge in play...
-Scavenging Ooze - I want to yell at every single pro/person ever that says stuff like you're doing it wrong if you're not playing Scooze "because it's just such a good card." What about if it doesn't fit my strategy all that well? It was relevant/fine in the Jund matchup, but that's because it's going to go long/your stuffs going to die. The thing is, it's doing nothing for you until after you've applied pressure/drawn out at least some removal. I won't fault anyone for playing this, but it is a very hit or miss card in a lot of games. The more proactively and explosively you're making plays, IE you're curving out well and dropping big bombs (aka winning), you're *not* using Scooze to get there. I have another strong suggestion/alternative to the Scooze, coming up in a sec-
Anyway, I'm moving over to BBD's "shell" for now (until Kibler finally reveals to the world something even better):
I really believe this is a tough debate, but it boils down to some very subtle but powerful interactions, and that it's definitely worth having. They're both obviously bad in multiples, and would never be run as more than a 2-3 of, so they fulfill similar roles of being value Grizzly Bears later on. Let me make a giant disclaimer to anyone who has not had the enjoyment of playing the Guildmage yet - you need to be very proficient at doing combat and mana math in your head, before you even drop a land.
-He's extremely fun in that he rewards tight play/mana management - that extra 3 mana you have? Swing with an extra 4/4 this turn. Or just RG to give the whole team trample - this is on the level of Kessig Wolf Run on a stick folks, *IF* you're playing big mean green creatures. It becomes very mathematically efficient to just pay 2 for your whole team's trample, plus, we're playing creatures that really need trample (and we don't always want to blow Ghor Clan) - Ruric Thar especially, it's embarassing when he gets chumped.
- I can say he's the grizzly bear that makes the difference between an almost got there alpha strike, and one that completely obliterated the other side of the table. Board stall breaker potential, especially when you can very feasibly produce 8+ mana by T5-6 or later.
- A very powerful PROACTIVE/AGGRESSIVE mana sink with Xenagos/other mana production, instead of a reactive mana sink.
-Skarrg Guildmage is miles ahead of Scavenging Ooze vs control. He gives you a very powerful option to just sink mana and hit their face, without committing anything, considering how much of a headache 4/4's are that are immune to sorcery removal for control, I have yet to see a 2 drop that's capable of applying so much pressure, especially late game.
-Late game Guildmage vs control can be read as a 6 mana for a 4/4 with haste (2 to drop him, 3 to animate a land, the land itself attacks).
Bear with me here folks, this is where more synergy starts to kick in. What if you play Arbor Colossus instead of Stormbreath Dragon? Guildmage is a package deal -
if you want to get a lot out of him, you want to play him with giant 6/6 green dudes, not evasive fliers. Individual card analyses aside, Arbor Colossus goes from an almost "defensive" big green card, to being a very viable finisher with more sources of trample in the deck now. The single biggest advantages I see of Colossus (on his own) vs the Dragon on it's own, Colossus should be more relevant at stabilizing you vs other creature decks. It protects your walkers (from air attacks) and gives you that one extra turn to untap and make the giant swing you need to make, if you're on the backfoot in a creature stall. I'd also go so far as to say I think this will be the mirror breaker in Gruul vs Gruul, and it won't go well for the one trying to jam Dragons. This deck already owns the ground because of it's huge creatures, but having finishers with Reach can very well swing tight races with fliers.
Also, one last bit of extra synergy for this style of "ground pounder" Gruul - it's been mentioned already, but, 2x-of Hammer of Purphoros in the board. I would gladly make the obvious argument that it can only be somewhat even better in this list - the Dragons already having haste is redundant with the Hammer's benefit.
Thanks for reading if you made it this far, the whole point of this book I wrote here was to illustrate ways to focus your build/deck, and inspire critical thinking in getting the absolute most out of all the cards in our deck. We shouldn't ever play "bad" cards just because the deck makes them good, and everything is evaluated on their standalone merits, but this is an explosive deck that wins by interacting with itself at the end of the day, let's be honest. I say these card tweaks are doing nothing to drag the deck down, but synergize better with each other, while covering a new angle of defense for you (air defense). This is what ultimately leads to T1 decks, they play great standalone well positioned cards, (if this ground pounder style is sure enough well positioned in the meta), while T1 decks are usually also capable of strong interactions with their own deck.
Yo dawg Frites Player, we herd you liked getting 1 for 3'd by Angel of Serenity, so we put some Angels in your Angel (Avacyn) so you can get chained while you get exiled. ANGELCEPTION.
BBD's list looks VERY good. And it could in fact push me off of naya and back to Gruul territory.
Im still on the 2-of scooze train somewhere in the 75. Card is really good in the mid/late game
Playing naya has shown me how strong Boon Satyr is. The guy is a HOUSE at every stage of the game. Ruric Thar seems pretty damn good as well. I brough it in(its in my naya SB) and the opp just scooped.
and for every person who didnt like Ghor-clan in the deck. That is a HUGE no-no. He ends games.
@Talroma - Give Skarrg Guildmage a try as that 2-of! I promise you, if you're feeling like you want to go back into Gruul Territory, he'll make you feel Gruuler than the ooze ever could. :>
PS: How is it over there in Naya land testing? What's the best reason to go Naya over Gruul in your findings? The biggest single draw to W from playing Gruul so long has always been Loxodon Smiter to me, and Boon Satyr really does feel on the same power level. Also, Unflinching Courage vs aggro decks is also a dirty trump for playing Naya.
Yo dawg Frites Player, we herd you liked getting 1 for 3'd by Angel of Serenity, so we put some Angels in your Angel (Avacyn) so you can get chained while you get exiled. ANGELCEPTION.
Good to see BBD and us in this thread had very similar ideas!
So I guess we may be back on the route of Xenagos+Domri being a good pair? It certainly seemed that way in the videos. Like i said in my post last night I was about ready to put in Boon Satyr, so good. I think the videos may just let me pull the trigger. I'm still not sold on Ghor-Clan, I guess I'm weird? Lol, I feel i'd just want a Ember Swallower over him.
Great stuff though, thanks for posting that Cassial, I read his article on it, but didn't want to jump in on it until he posted the VS video.
Going off BBD's list this is what I would specifically change for what I feel will be better to play at states.
Good to see BBD and us in this thread had very similar ideas!
So I guess we may be back on the route of Xenagos+Domri being a good pair? It certainly seemed that way in the videos. Like i said in my post last night I was about ready to put in Boon Satyr, so good. I think the videos may just let me pull the trigger. I'm still not sold on Ghor-Clan, I guess I'm weird? Lol, I feel i'd just want a Ember Swallower over him.
Great stuff though, thanks for posting that Cassial, I read his article on it, but didn't want to jump in on it until he posted the VS video.
Going off BBD's list this is what I would specifically change for what I feel will be better to play at states.
+/- Ghor-Clan
+/- Ember Swallower *I put this here only because i'm going to test both*
Scavenging Ooze can stay I suppose, don't really know what I would want instead. Maybe a 2/1 split between 2 Scooze, 1 Gruul Guildmage?
That's a great point you bring up, about Zhur-Taa Druid vs Sylvan Caryatid. Caryatid is going to absolutely hedge for you against aggro matchups better, especially Firefist Striker. That's reason enough to consider it IMO. The thing is, you really just have to grind more matches - I strongly suggest counting how many pings a Zhur Taa Druid gets in. If you get in at least 2-3 pings, he's done his job IMO. ZTD gives you a bit more reach if you're all in on the big ground dudes because it's direct damage to the face, not to mention he just adds incidental damage as the game goes on. When you're ready to alpha strike them, it all counts in the end.
I also believe that even if Sylvan vs ZTD, if Sylvan is the better defensive option, I can somewhat compensate this by playing Colossus over the Dragon later on.
On Ghor-Clan Vs Ember Swallower, we really just need to test both. I personally think that in my "focused" ground-pounder build, Ghor-Clan is definitely 4-of again, thanks to Boon Satyr. I speak from a LOT of experience on this interaction here, I've almost always played 4-of Wolfir Silverheart and championed him a lot back in the G/R forum this past standard, because Wolfir Silverheart/Ghor Clan were that much more powerful of cards simply by being in the deck together. The two being in the deck together really add redundancy, (more sources of "bloodrush") resiliency, (flash/bestow) more/better flexible lines of play, because Ghor-Clan is worth playing as a creature now instead of always being a pump spell.
Personally, I think Ember Swallower besides being a superior 4/5 body, doesn't offer much except against control decks, the threat of nuking the lands on a game that's gone late is powerful. I'm more concerned with beating other midrange decks, if we're both having an arms race, I want more ways to punch through/trample/inevitability when *I* swing. I'm applying the same train of thinking against aggro really, assuming we both get to the fundamental turn/board stall, I don't see nuking our lands as being that desirable, it's too late to matter/doesn't impact the creatures they have already on field. And quite frankly, I'm not worried a damn bit about control with this deck, or in my state at all for that matter. I know you said up north people love their Island(s) and I take your word for it, it's a different jungle down south.
And again on the Scooze vs Guildmage thing, Guildmage really feels like a package deal to me. If you're running Dragons, I think Dragons would work better in a build that does pay attention to early ground defense, while you do the killing in the air - Sylvan Caryatid + Scavenging Ooze should be better in that regard. I would absolutely not want to lean heavily on my Dragon as the real win con if I didn't have my ground bases squared away. They help each other do their jobs better. Just like the Skarrg + Colossi.
The most important thing here is to just be aware of what each edge these card choices offer us in different matchups, and then we'll tune our lists to beat what we expect.
Yo dawg Frites Player, we herd you liked getting 1 for 3'd by Angel of Serenity, so we put some Angels in your Angel (Avacyn) so you can get chained while you get exiled. ANGELCEPTION.
Sorry to take up an entire page worth of forum space jamming ideas here, but there is one specific thing I want to bring up that may be worth testing, regardless of your Gruul version. I've harped enough about my own version, for whatever it's worth, let's talk some more generally applicable actual strategies;
More specifically, let's talk some sideboarding. For those who may be newer to Gruul,
if you're against aggro, I would love to tell you from experience that one of the best things you can do is board out your Domri Rade(s), if you're against a faster deck, Domri will not help you stabilize if they're applying reasonable pressure. You especially want to board out all of your Domri(s) if you are on the draw vs hyper-aggro. To further this train of thought, you're bringing in extra Mizzium Mortars, which are not creatures/de-synergize with Domri, so the most practical swap is Domri for utility spells that have more immediate impact, IE great burn like Mortars.
Taking that a step further though, this is where I see a *possible* good niche against aggro for Bow of Nylea.
You're bringing in a piece of "tech", it's not a creature, so it encourages you to swap it for Domri. The upside here is that your deck will (ideally) continue to ramp up/develop it's mana - that part of our game plan does not change. With that extra mana, it could very well be a thing to just sink 2 mana EoT to gain 3 life, and stay in the race. I'm not a proponent of spending cards and mana for one shot life gain either, usually, but consider how your deck *finishes* the opponent too. If you have the Bow of Nylea in play, doing it's thing, and it's bought you some time you needed to get there - you can have a Deathtouch attacking Polukranos, living the dream and monstrosity board wiping them. That's the best case scenario. What about an average one? You have big dudes with trample and deathtouch, you're that much more likely to kill them through whatever blockers they may leave back. You're also buying yourself time with the Bow in order to topdeck that Miracle Bonfire..I mean, Mizzium Mortars that you overload and win the game with that way. I could be completely wrong on this too and it may be useless durdling vs aggro, but this is probably one thing I'm going to test soon. It's also completely okay to be wrong, it's only by being wrong that we eventually get it right, and right now is crucial to experimenting and/or trying things.
What have your sideboarding *PLANS* been so far gang? Ideally, we want very specific tools for specific matchups, or various good cards / higher quantity of hedge cards depending on your build / trouble matchup. A sideboard plan is not something that is set in stone, as the pros always say they don't have "set" board swaps. I call complete BS on that one, you should have a good idea of how you can better interact with the opponent's deck post board, before you even set foot in the tournament room if you've done your homework. Unless you're playing something completely rogue and unexpected, and well, that's part of magic too.
Yo dawg Frites Player, we herd you liked getting 1 for 3'd by Angel of Serenity, so we put some Angels in your Angel (Avacyn) so you can get chained while you get exiled. ANGELCEPTION.
Personally, I think Ember Swallower besides being a superior 4/5 body, doesn't offer much except against control decks
not that it's correct to just try to convert the Kibler template into current cards but part of the allure of your four and five drops being R is avoiding Lifebane Zombie. It's also worth mentioning that Ember Swallower and Stormbreath Dragon besides trying to do so-so post-rotation impressions of Hellrider and Thundermaw Hellkite in this respect also dodge some of what should be common non-B removal in new standard:
neither of these lists is exhaustive either - that's what I could quickly think of off the top of my head ...
It pains me to say all this as someone who desperately tried to make Deadbridge Goliath work (prior to Lifebane Zombie) and doesn't want to have to pay $$$ for flying dragons again.
@Talroma - Give Skarrg Guildmage a try as that 2-of! I promise you, if you're feeling like you want to go back into Gruul Territory, he'll make you feel Gruuler than the ooze ever could. :>
PS: How is it over there in Naya land testing? What's the best reason to go Naya over Gruul in your findings? The biggest single draw to W from playing Gruul so long has always been Loxodon Smiter to me, and Boon Satyr really does feel on the same power level. Also, Unflinching Courage vs aggro decks is also a dirty trump for playing Naya.
The white thats pushing it over is the following
Smiter is REALLY good right now.
Boros is usually the literal nuts
Unflinching courage makes aggro MUs amazing.
Chain to the rocks gets rid of any creature(except BBV and Stormbreath)
Assemble the Legion is sweet
Fleecemane Lion is a great 2 drop
Voice of Resurrgence is still good because he is usually 2 bodies out of one card and that token is super serious
And selesnya kills a few creatures and makes a dude(not the best card out of white though, and sometimes a bit lackluster.)
That is true. Yeah maybe I counted him out too quickly. He is really good, I'm not denying that.
I had him in my first draft list on the same premise that creatures WILL be dying, thats a fact. So maybe it's time to squeeze him back in.
4 Elvish Mystic
2 Sylvan Caryatid
3 Domri Rade
3 Stormbreath Dragon
2 Ember Swallower
2 Polukranos, World Eater
3 Hammer of Purphoros
4 Satyr Hedonist
4 Magma Jet
4 Stomping Ground
4 Temple of Abandon
2 Ghor-Clan Rampager
9 Forest
5 Mountain
2 Gruul Guildgate
3 Mistcutter Hydra
3 Anger of the Gods
3 Destructive Revelry
3 Burning Earth
2 Pithing Needle
1 Fade into Antiquity
3 Skullcrack
Not tested much, but had nice results against Esper Control (which I think will be a strong presence in the new standard). The sideboard is still sketchy.
Yea I was playing him in naya(my pet deck) and he wasnt as good there(with the amount of amazing 2 drops naya has). But I find the quality of r/g creatures def went down post-rotation. Lost Strangleroot/flinthoof/hellrider/pillar/kessig.
Im super curious about this deck and will likely be testing it this friday against naya to see how that matchup is.
Standard:RWUJeskai WinsRWU
Modern:GWBMelira PodGWB
Legacy:WDeath & TaxesW
4x Rakdos Cackler
4x Experiment One
4x Burning-Tree Emissary
3x Sylvan Caryatid
4x Gorehouse Chainwalker
4x Boros Reckoner
3x Ghor-Clan Rampager
3x Purphoros, God of the Forge
2x Magma Jet
3x Domri Rade
1x Hammer of Purphoros
3x Mizzium Mortars
Land (22)
4x Stomping Grounds
4x Temple of Abandon
4x Temple Garden
10 Mountain
It is possible that I'm going too hard on being a synergy based aggro deck and should just beef up like the other decks in this thread or go faster like the RDW lists I've been seeing, but I like the sweet spot in between where I have a good solid early game aggressive plan with Domri and Puprh to provide both card advantage and late game reach respectively. Sylvan Caryatid felt a bit out of place here, but it does evolve experiment one up to 3/3 and can get a purph into play early or simply block for a domri. Hammer has been fantastic. It is a shame that it generally does nothing in multiples.
-Esper:
4 Omenspeaker
2 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
2 Jace, Architect of Thought
2 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
Spells: 24
4 Dissolve
4 Azorius Charm
4 Supreme Verdict
4 Sphinx's Revelation
3 Doom Blade
3 Thoughtseize
2 Detention Sphere
4 Hallowed Fountain
4 Watery Grave
4 Godless Shrine
3 Temple of Deceit
3 Azorius Guildgate
2 Orzhov Guildgate
3 Island
3 Plains
-U/W/R:
4 Omenspeaker
2 Jace, Architect of Thought
2 Aetherling
Spells: 26
4 Azorius Charm
4 Warleader's Helix
3 Anger of the Gods
3 Supreme Verdict
3 Sphinx's Revelation
3 Magma Jet
2 Steam Augury
2 Chained to the Rocks
2 Detention Sphere
4 Hallowed Fountain
4 Steam Vents
4 Sacred Foundry
3 Azorius Guildgate
2 Izzet Guildgate
3 Temple of Triumph
1 Mountain
3 Plains
2 Island
-Mono Red Blitz:
4 Firedrinker Satyr
4 Legion Loyalist
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Foundry Street Denzien
4 Ash Zealot
4 Gore-house Chainwalker
4 Firefist Striker
2 Purphoros
4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet
4 Titan's Strength
Lands: 18
18x Mountain
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=9157664&postcount=1
South Carolina State Champion: 2012
Yo dawg Frites Player, we herd you liked getting 1 for 3'd by Angel of Serenity, so we put some Angels in your Angel (Avacyn) so you can get chained while you get exiled. ANGELCEPTION.
Thanks Cassial, I updated the primer guys. Great community effort thus far.
I'm also going to throw up a version I'm going to test, see how it works. I will keep all the versions of the deck saved on my comp, just in case we need a point of reference.
4 Arbor Colossus
4 Elvish Mystic
3 Ember Swallower
4 Mistcutter Hydra
3 Nylea, God of the Hunt
3 Polukranos, World Eater
2 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
2 Savageborn Hydra
4 Sylvan Caryatid
2 Zhur-Taa Druid
4 Domri Rade
2 Xenagos, the Reveler
Lands
9 Forest
5 Mountain
1 Rogue's Passage
4 Stomping Ground
4 Temple of Abandon
The list full of hydras, I like 'em ! Sorry Kalonian Hydra, can't fit you in.
Modern : RG Titan Shift RG | RG Revolt Zoo RG | RG Ponza RG | RGW Naya Burn RGW
Legacy : RG Belcher RG
Modern : RG Titan Shift RG | RG Revolt Zoo RG | RG Ponza RG | RGW Naya Burn RGW
Legacy : RG Belcher RG
I concur.
@Apoc It's a great card don't get me wrong but, don't feel it deserves a slot in this deck. If it were to see any play it would probably be just a 1 of. Mistcutter Hydra//Stormbreath Dragon is all the Haste I need.
4x Ghor-Clan Rampager
2x Slaughterhorn
2x Rubblebelt Maaka
3x Stormbreath Dragon
3x Scavenging Ooze
3x Sylvan Caryatid
3x Elvish Mystic
3x Legion Loyalist
3x Savageborn Hydra
3x Polis Crusher
4x Xenagos, the Reveler
2x Garruk, Caller of Beasts
3x Bow of Nylea
Lands (22)
4x Stomping Ground
9x Forest
9x Mountain
Increased number of bloodrushers for the deck using 2 each of red and green, going low on bloodrush cost for early effect, can be hardcast if needed.
Polis Crusher I know what you're thinking, why this card? I think it has the potential to be a good fit. 4/4 for cmc4 is fine, and pro-enchantments means it can dodge the gods, will need further playtesting, could be good.
Stormbreath Dragon seems a decent shoe-in for Thundermaw at this point, and the pro-white certainly helps.
Scavenging Ooze does what it does best, getting better value out of bloodrushed cards
Bow of Nylea is replacing Mizzium Mortars in the list, though Mortars will likely be sideboard. Deathtouch with trample seems pretty good to me, not to mention card utility.
Legion Loyalist plays nicely with the trample/first strike on batallion, and looks to play nicely with Xenagos, The Reveller
who will probably be in the SB to swap for game 2 with Domri RadeGarruk, Caller of Beasts played well in my previous R/G aggressive midrange build to refill hands after bloodrushing, will keep as a 2-of for now.
Cards currently being considered for sideboard:
Mizzium Mortars: Answers a lot of threats, would exchange 1:1 with Bow of Nylea game 2 if needed.
Xenagos, The Reveler: Allows for ramping, can bump up Savageborn Hydras, 2/2 tokens play nice with Legion Loyalist. Exchanges 1:1 with Domri Rade for Game 2.Swapped Xenagos with Domri. Domri is now in SB and comes in game 2.Pithing Needle: Takes care of pesky planeswalkers, used to hose Nephalia Drownyards, glad that's gone.
Ratchet Bomb: Good vs. tokens, enchantments, really any threat without another way to answer with this deck
Destructive Revelry: RG, destroys enchantment or artifact, and shocks opponent? Yes please.
this is the list I've been testing so far, figured I should copy it over here.
Avatar and Sig by Xen's Inkfox Aesthetics
GWLambs and LionsWG
GMono-Green BeatsG
Testing: BGRock VariantGB
GWBJanky JunkGWB
UWGMimic BantrolUWG
BWApostleypse NowBW
Modern : RG Titan Shift RG | RG Revolt Zoo RG | RG Ponza RG | RGW Naya Burn RGW
Legacy : RG Belcher RG
Im running this now:
4x Elvish Mystic
4x Experiment One
3x Sylvan Caryatid
4x Burning-Tree Emissary
3x Scavenging Ooze
4x Boon Satyr
4x Ghor-Clan Rampager
4x Stormbreath Dragon
3x Mizzium Mortars
Planeswalker (4)
4x Domri Rade
Land (23)
11x Forest
6x Mountain
4x Stomping Ground
2x Temple of Abandon
Looks better and faster than the first version but Im not sure about the Ooze. What do you think duds?
#1 - Xenagos, the Reveler vs Domri Rade = Deckbuilding Tension?
My point is that Xenagos is wanting you to spend your *first two or three turns summoning creatures* rather than *creature + Domri Rade*. *He will have impact the turn he comes down* if you have say, a 1 drop, a Burning-Tree Emissary+another two drop on field. The ideal scenario (IMO) for utilizing Xenagos is having at least 2-3 creatures already in play *before* you drop him, and when you do, you should be able to +1 him, and still use 3-4 mana that turn from Xenagos. I'm fully aware that NOT playing Domri Rade at all, and setting up 3+ creatures on field is asking for overcommitment, but *consider the overall card flow* Xenagos is asking us to do here - he wants us to aggressively dump cards for mana early on, and then it's up to us to turn mana into more cards - enter Garruk, Caller of Beasts. It's the same principle with regular mana dorks, or playing excess mana dudes - spending cards to accelerate your mana, and then use the mana later to get more cards.
#2 - A Domri/Xenagos "Hybrid" deck -
#3 - Building a deck for explosiveness vs consistency;
#4) *MOST IDEAL* Early mana curve considerations -
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=9157664&postcount=1
South Carolina State Champion: 2012
Yo dawg Frites Player, we herd you liked getting 1 for 3'd by Angel of Serenity, so we put some Angels in your Angel (Avacyn) so you can get chained while you get exiled. ANGELCEPTION.
Which build did you test? What changes did you make and why? More importantly, what did you test against?
I think this is on the right track of being really aggressive in this strategy. Boon Satyr is a really good card, almost close to MD him myself, though I have tested against U/W and RDW, I think I want to be more midrange aggressive in the sense I just want my guys to be huge and avoid Mizzium Mortars to be quite truthful. Without Boros Reckoner red has nothing but 2 for 1 my monster. Which is totally okay with me. Though i'm just saying what works for me, theres a more aggresive build and a more midrange build.
Cassial, very good points. I would have to say these are the things I have been mulling over myself. I fully understand it's not an "end all be all" debate. This strategy is versitile in the sense if you feel you want to be a bit more aggresive you can, or more midrange you can. Theyre both using high impact creatures, just as you said. One will be more focused around Domri and the other Xenagos.
Though if we look back on page 2 and over on Magic-League, one user pulled Domri & Xenagos off in the same deck. So it can be viable. Again, it's not end all be all, but it can work. It's only one tournament but at the very least it was 5 rounds. So theres something to be pulled from.
From further testing tonight tackling what I thought would be a dreaded matchup is U/W Control. I can say that I liked Domri AND Xenagos here, because both are good in this match up. Domri feeds me creatures, Xenagos creates creatures. It's win-win. I'll post more tomorrow morning on the testing results. I will say it is a race of time until Elspeth 3.0 hits...unless you're holding the game ending Stormbreath Dragon, it's not going to be good.
**I will say this...I do like more of what your first list you posted Cassial, I felt I always wanted my creatures to only absolutely be able to get killed by Hero's Downfall or a Doom blade. I want them as resiliant as I can in combat (aggro), and for them to have to use a 1 for 1 on my creature (control). It felt that I had more threats then they had answers, especially if they need to Detention Sphere Domri.**
That being said...in the area that I live in and plan on going to 2013 States. Blue is everywhere, people just love their blue in the NY/CT/RI area. So I feel Domri/Xenagos split is maybe where I want to be. If not, then definatly Xenagos...if I decide to make that transition my list would look like this:
4x Voyaging Satyr
2x Zhur-Taa Druid
4x Ember Swallower
2x Pupheros, God of the Forge
2x Nylea, God of the Hunt
3x Polukranos
3x Stormbreath Dragon
2x Arbor Colossus
1x Polis Crusher
1x Ruric-Thar, the Unbowed
2x Garruk, Caller of beasts
3x Mizzium Mortars
1x Bow of Nylea
23 Lands
Thats where I would sort of want to be if I was leaning more to using Xenagos, I would just want all the great 4 drop/5 drop guys. I want all my creatures to have high P/T and while I'm more mid-range, it's still holding an aggressive playstyle and not totally "going rampy". I feel keeping an aggresive premise is where R/G wants to be. Whether it be more focused on Domri/Xenagos or Domri + Xenagos. I think there's room for all three, though one will probably end up being more favorable depending on what you feel is your specific playstyle and area of meta.
Again looking at the M-L trial 1st place list is a great starting point.
By the way, what list were you testing/testing against? Cassial?
My build is in the above post #32. I tried to use a slightly different set of creatures than the common RG decks currently using. In a mirror match, if they manage to drop the dragon on turn 3, I too manage to drop colossus on turn 3 and got the advantage. I choose to run creatures that dodges miz mortars. Hydras in main is because I feel more at ease against control decks, and also it can be dropped at any turn. Want to whack early, drop it early as 2/2 or 3/3. Want to swing huge, drop it late.
Modern : RG Titan Shift RG | RG Revolt Zoo RG | RG Ponza RG | RGW Naya Burn RGW
Legacy : RG Belcher RG
This morning I watched a SCG VS video with BBD trying a Domri/Xenagos "Hybrid", and was immediately inspired. Link:
Anyway, here's BBD's list, and then I'll merge it with my own and quip a little on the tighter synergies I discovered;
4x Elvish Mystic
4x Zhur-Taa Druid
3x Scavenging Ooze
4x Boon Satyr
4x Ghor-Clan Rampager
1x Polis Crusher
3x Polukranos, World Eater
4x Stormbreath Dragon
2x Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
4x Domri Rade
3x Xenagos, the Reveler
Lands: [24]
8x Forest
8x Mountain
4x Temple of Abandon
4x Stomping Ground
2x Destructive Revelry
2x Electrickery
2x Hammer of Purphoros
3x Chandra, Pyromaster
3x Mizzium Mortars
3x Peak Eruption
Noteworthy cards/interactions their video showed me:
Strong points about their matchups;
-Boon Satyr - was perhaps one of the strongest cards, and may be one of the most important cards in any grindy/control matchup we face. Boon Satyr's obvious advantages aside, he provides 4 more cards in the deck that help you not overcommit, but also he indirectly makes Ghor-Clan Rampager MUCH BETTER in your deck again. I'm happy to hardcast Ghor-Clan if I can Bestow it later, and this allows a lot more flexibility in lines of play - sometimes you do need to hardcast that rampager, and bestowing a GCR is just so strong if you had to summon the rampager first. 8 Effective sources of Bloodrush now, and one of them is a flash creature too.
-Ruric Thar, the Unbowed - Mr. Thar being slammed down on T3 or T4 is atrocious to most any deck right now, and he is plain well positioned at the moment IMO, unless Master of Cruelties sees a massive surge in play...
-Scavenging Ooze - I want to yell at every single pro/person ever that says stuff like you're doing it wrong if you're not playing Scooze "because it's just such a good card." What about if it doesn't fit my strategy all that well? It was relevant/fine in the Jund matchup, but that's because it's going to go long/your stuffs going to die. The thing is, it's doing nothing for you until after you've applied pressure/drawn out at least some removal. I won't fault anyone for playing this, but it is a very hit or miss card in a lot of games. The more proactively and explosively you're making plays, IE you're curving out well and dropping big bombs (aka winning), you're *not* using Scooze to get there. I have another strong suggestion/alternative to the Scooze, coming up in a sec-
Anyway, I'm moving over to BBD's "shell" for now (until Kibler finally reveals to the world something even better):
4x Elvish Mystic
4x Zhur-Taa Druid
3x Skarrg Guildmage
4x Boon Satyr
4x Ghor-Clan Rampager
2x Polukranos, World Eater
2x Polis Crusher
4x Arbor Colossus
2x Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
4x Domri Rade
3x Xenagos, the Reveler
Lands: [24]
9x Forest
7x Mountain
4x Stomping Ground
4x Temple of Abandon
+++Scavenging Ooze vs Skarrg Guildmage;
-He's extremely fun in that he rewards tight play/mana management - that extra 3 mana you have? Swing with an extra 4/4 this turn. Or just RG to give the whole team trample - this is on the level of Kessig Wolf Run on a stick folks, *IF* you're playing big mean green creatures. It becomes very mathematically efficient to just pay 2 for your whole team's trample, plus, we're playing creatures that really need trample (and we don't always want to blow Ghor Clan) - Ruric Thar especially, it's embarassing when he gets chumped.
- I can say he's the grizzly bear that makes the difference between an almost got there alpha strike, and one that completely obliterated the other side of the table. Board stall breaker potential, especially when you can very feasibly produce 8+ mana by T5-6 or later.
- A very powerful PROACTIVE/AGGRESSIVE mana sink with Xenagos/other mana production, instead of a reactive mana sink.
-Skarrg Guildmage is miles ahead of Scavenging Ooze vs control. He gives you a very powerful option to just sink mana and hit their face, without committing anything, considering how much of a headache 4/4's are that are immune to sorcery removal for control, I have yet to see a 2 drop that's capable of applying so much pressure, especially late game.
-Late game Guildmage vs control can be read as a 6 mana for a 4/4 with haste (2 to drop him, 3 to animate a land, the land itself attacks).
Bear with me here folks, this is where more synergy starts to kick in. What if you play Arbor Colossus instead of Stormbreath Dragon? Guildmage is a package deal -
Also, one last bit of extra synergy for this style of "ground pounder" Gruul - it's been mentioned already, but, 2x-of Hammer of Purphoros in the board. I would gladly make the obvious argument that it can only be somewhat even better in this list - the Dragons already having haste is redundant with the Hammer's benefit.
Thanks for reading if you made it this far, the whole point of this book I wrote here was to illustrate ways to focus your build/deck, and inspire critical thinking in getting the absolute most out of all the cards in our deck. We shouldn't ever play "bad" cards just because the deck makes them good, and everything is evaluated on their standalone merits, but this is an explosive deck that wins by interacting with itself at the end of the day, let's be honest. I say these card tweaks are doing nothing to drag the deck down, but synergize better with each other, while covering a new angle of defense for you (air defense). This is what ultimately leads to T1 decks, they play great standalone well positioned cards, (if this ground pounder style is sure enough well positioned in the meta), while T1 decks are usually also capable of strong interactions with their own deck.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=9157664&postcount=1
South Carolina State Champion: 2012
Yo dawg Frites Player, we herd you liked getting 1 for 3'd by Angel of Serenity, so we put some Angels in your Angel (Avacyn) so you can get chained while you get exiled. ANGELCEPTION.
Im still on the 2-of scooze train somewhere in the 75. Card is really good in the mid/late game
Playing naya has shown me how strong Boon Satyr is. The guy is a HOUSE at every stage of the game. Ruric Thar seems pretty damn good as well. I brough it in(its in my naya SB) and the opp just scooped.
and for every person who didnt like Ghor-clan in the deck. That is a HUGE no-no. He ends games.
Standard:RWUJeskai WinsRWU
Modern:GWBMelira PodGWB
Legacy:WDeath & TaxesW
PS: How is it over there in Naya land testing? What's the best reason to go Naya over Gruul in your findings? The biggest single draw to W from playing Gruul so long has always been Loxodon Smiter to me, and Boon Satyr really does feel on the same power level. Also, Unflinching Courage vs aggro decks is also a dirty trump for playing Naya.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=9157664&postcount=1
South Carolina State Champion: 2012
Yo dawg Frites Player, we herd you liked getting 1 for 3'd by Angel of Serenity, so we put some Angels in your Angel (Avacyn) so you can get chained while you get exiled. ANGELCEPTION.
So I guess we may be back on the route of Xenagos+Domri being a good pair? It certainly seemed that way in the videos. Like i said in my post last night I was about ready to put in Boon Satyr, so good. I think the videos may just let me pull the trigger. I'm still not sold on Ghor-Clan, I guess I'm weird? Lol, I feel i'd just want a Ember Swallower over him.
Great stuff though, thanks for posting that Cassial, I read his article on it, but didn't want to jump in on it until he posted the VS video.
Going off BBD's list this is what I would specifically change for what I feel will be better to play at states.
-4 Zhur-Taa Druid
+4 Sylvan Carytid (for mainly security)
+/- Ghor-Clan
+/- Ember Swallower *I put this here only because i'm going to test both*
Scavenging Ooze can stay I suppose, don't really know what I would want instead. Maybe a 2/1 split between 2 Scooze, 1 Gruul Guildmage?
That's a great point you bring up, about Zhur-Taa Druid vs Sylvan Caryatid. Caryatid is going to absolutely hedge for you against aggro matchups better, especially Firefist Striker. That's reason enough to consider it IMO. The thing is, you really just have to grind more matches - I strongly suggest counting how many pings a Zhur Taa Druid gets in. If you get in at least 2-3 pings, he's done his job IMO. ZTD gives you a bit more reach if you're all in on the big ground dudes because it's direct damage to the face, not to mention he just adds incidental damage as the game goes on. When you're ready to alpha strike them, it all counts in the end.
I also believe that even if Sylvan vs ZTD, if Sylvan is the better defensive option, I can somewhat compensate this by playing Colossus over the Dragon later on.
On Ghor-Clan Vs Ember Swallower, we really just need to test both. I personally think that in my "focused" ground-pounder build, Ghor-Clan is definitely 4-of again, thanks to Boon Satyr. I speak from a LOT of experience on this interaction here, I've almost always played 4-of Wolfir Silverheart and championed him a lot back in the G/R forum this past standard, because Wolfir Silverheart/Ghor Clan were that much more powerful of cards simply by being in the deck together. The two being in the deck together really add redundancy, (more sources of "bloodrush") resiliency, (flash/bestow) more/better flexible lines of play, because Ghor-Clan is worth playing as a creature now instead of always being a pump spell.
Personally, I think Ember Swallower besides being a superior 4/5 body, doesn't offer much except against control decks, the threat of nuking the lands on a game that's gone late is powerful. I'm more concerned with beating other midrange decks, if we're both having an arms race, I want more ways to punch through/trample/inevitability when *I* swing. I'm applying the same train of thinking against aggro really, assuming we both get to the fundamental turn/board stall, I don't see nuking our lands as being that desirable, it's too late to matter/doesn't impact the creatures they have already on field. And quite frankly, I'm not worried a damn bit about control with this deck, or in my state at all for that matter. I know you said up north people love their Island(s) and I take your word for it, it's a different jungle down south.
And again on the Scooze vs Guildmage thing, Guildmage really feels like a package deal to me. If you're running Dragons, I think Dragons would work better in a build that does pay attention to early ground defense, while you do the killing in the air - Sylvan Caryatid + Scavenging Ooze should be better in that regard. I would absolutely not want to lean heavily on my Dragon as the real win con if I didn't have my ground bases squared away. They help each other do their jobs better. Just like the Skarrg + Colossi.
The most important thing here is to just be aware of what each edge these card choices offer us in different matchups, and then we'll tune our lists to beat what we expect.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=9157664&postcount=1
South Carolina State Champion: 2012
Yo dawg Frites Player, we herd you liked getting 1 for 3'd by Angel of Serenity, so we put some Angels in your Angel (Avacyn) so you can get chained while you get exiled. ANGELCEPTION.
More specifically, let's talk some sideboarding. For those who may be newer to Gruul,
Taking that a step further though, this is where I see a *possible* good niche against aggro for Bow of Nylea.
What have your sideboarding *PLANS* been so far gang? Ideally, we want very specific tools for specific matchups, or various good cards / higher quantity of hedge cards depending on your build / trouble matchup. A sideboard plan is not something that is set in stone, as the pros always say they don't have "set" board swaps. I call complete BS on that one, you should have a good idea of how you can better interact with the opponent's deck post board, before you even set foot in the tournament room if you've done your homework. Unless you're playing something completely rogue and unexpected, and well, that's part of magic too.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=9157664&postcount=1
South Carolina State Champion: 2012
Yo dawg Frites Player, we herd you liked getting 1 for 3'd by Angel of Serenity, so we put some Angels in your Angel (Avacyn) so you can get chained while you get exiled. ANGELCEPTION.
not that it's correct to just try to convert the Kibler template into current cards but part of the allure of your four and five drops being R is avoiding Lifebane Zombie. It's also worth mentioning that Ember Swallower and Stormbreath Dragon besides trying to do so-so post-rotation impressions of Hellrider and Thundermaw Hellkite in this respect also dodge some of what should be common non-B removal in new standard:
Ember: Mizzium Mortars and Selesnya Charm (non-monstrous)
Stormbreath: Azorious Charm, Selesnya Charm, Detention Sphere, and Chained to the Rocks
neither of these lists is exhaustive either - that's what I could quickly think of off the top of my head ...
It pains me to say all this as someone who desperately tried to make Deadbridge Goliath work (prior to Lifebane Zombie) and doesn't want to have to pay $$$ for flying dragons again.
The white thats pushing it over is the following
Smiter is REALLY good right now.
Boros is usually the literal nuts
Unflinching courage makes aggro MUs amazing.
Chain to the rocks gets rid of any creature(except BBV and Stormbreath)
Assemble the Legion is sweet
Fleecemane Lion is a great 2 drop
Voice of Resurrgence is still good because he is usually 2 bodies out of one card and that token is super serious
And selesnya kills a few creatures and makes a dude(not the best card out of white though, and sometimes a bit lackluster.)
Standard:RWUJeskai WinsRWU
Modern:GWBMelira PodGWB
Legacy:WDeath & TaxesW