Actually I have been keeping those lieges for a long, long time in the SB without almost never finding them useful even vs Jund. Sad but true.
I actually mainboard the lieges and they are certainly useful for me against Jund, but not so much against other matchups especially those requiring me to race with. Usually I noticed in my games, a liege is usually smaller than a Goyf, and vialing a liege also does not save our Knight Exemplar from Lightning Bolt/Lightning Helix. I did drop down a Liege in response to Liliana of the Veil's first ability but by and large having the Liege definitely improves my chances against Jund since Liege does increase Tribal Knights power level with its body and anthem effect thus working better against mid-range decks.
So, Heliod, God of the Sun. Not a knight and doesn't make knight tokens but he is still a 5/6 indestructible Serra's Blessing for 4 mana. Five devotion is super easy to hit in a knight deck. Playable?
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MODERN - WUB Gifts - W Knights - W Soul Sisters - WR Land Destruction - B Mono Black Control
That's the point. I used to maindeck them too once, but then I realized they were too much of a heavy stone (italian MTG expression meaning that you have an unplayable card in hand). VS Jund Leyline of Sanctity has been way more useful and I could only seldom exploit Liege vs Liliana's + ability.
Only Kibler's Deathbears can maindeck them imho
Do you play Paladin en-Vec or Fiendslayer Paladin? What I encounter against Junk or decks with hand discard is they will usually remove them and add in more creature removal thus reducing the effectiveness of Leyline of Sanctity. They usually remove their hand discard when they realise we don't have combo card or big bombs they cannot handle.
So, Heliod, God of the Sun. Not a knight and doesn't make knight tokens but he is still a 5/6 indestructible Serra's Blessing for 4 mana. Five devotion is super easy to hit in a knight deck. Playable?
I hate to refer to a new or potential card as ‘win more’ since it is akin to writing a card off immediately, that said I look at Heliod, God of the Sun more like a card to break a stalemate. As usual, to determine if the new white God is worthy of a chance to lead Modern Knights we will compare with other 4cc spells at the moment such as the likes of Elspeth, Knight-Errant, Wilt-leaf Liege or Kinsbaile Cavalier – or even another 3cc Knight or equipment Sword. Although I do agree it seems quite easy to achieve Devotion as most of the knights requires WW, personally I think the other 4cc spells are better from a situational and consistency viewpoint :-/.
I don't, but I don't usually see Lilianas using their +1 ability first hehehe
Anyway you just gave me a nice idea for sb, never thought about the Vec, really
I actually maindecked a few Paladin en-Vec. At 2/2 for 3 mana, they are pretty underwhelming from a power/toughness perspective, but with Rancor they do pack a punch from there. I had to play Paladin en-Vec simply because red removal are just so rampant in my UWR, Jund and Burn meta :-/.
I actually maindecked a few Paladin en-Vec. At 2/2 for 3 mana, they are pretty underwhelming from a power/toughness perspective, but with Rancor they do pack a punch from there. I had to play Paladin en-Vec simply because red removal are just so rampant in my UWR, Jund and Burn meta :-/.
Lightning bolt/red damage spells are a major part of my meta too. I wish Wizards would reprint Silver Knight.
Does anyone think that Spear of Heliod could possibly replace Honor the Pure in a mono-white build? I was thinking of going for 2 of each instead of 4 HtP (I run 4 HtP since I have no Aether Vials as of yet). Any thoughts would be great!
Does anyone think that Spear of Heliod could possibly replace Honor the Pure in a mono-white build? I was thinking of going for 2 of each instead of 4 HtP (I run 4 HtP since I have no Aether Vials as of yet). Any thoughts would be great!
I think there's a chance of playing Spear of Heliod. Personally I do not even run Honor of the Pure due to the lack of space in the deck (I would play anthem spells if there is no Vial though ;)). The spear has its merits even when you ended up creatureless because you could still use your mana to kill off opponent's attackers therefore it is not as useless as the typical anthem when no creature is in play. As a legendary permanent, and because of it's mana cost I think 2 Heliod + 2 Honor or 1 Heliod + 3 Honor type of combinations should be worth testing around and might just be viable.
Spear of Heliod could have been nice, actually, but too situational imho. Just like Giltspire Avenger.
What I really do NOT like from Theros is Stormbreath Dragon. That is a thorn in the chest (because PITA is too mainstream) for my knights. Should I begin sideboarding Dismember?
Yes I mostly agree on Spear of Heliod being too situational, should be worth testing out though, it might be useful on a slower meta I guess .
Stormbreath Dragon is pretty scary, with its pro white (which is literally in anti-Knight color) :(. I think Decks with red splash might be tempted to play him especially since he dodges Path to Exile and requires 2 burn spells to take him out, it seems like only Black has a better answer against it. If you expect to see this dragon, sideboarding Dismember shouldn't be a bad idea at all. Dismember can also serve as additional removals after the usually mandatory 4 PtE.
Yes, it would be great if we could have Silver Knight in Modern, he would be perfectly placed as a 2 drop creature in our meta :).
Silver Knight is a reprint we could VERY much use. The Pro-Red would allow us to have a beater that can dodge the annoying Lightning Bolts and Helixi. Hell it DID get a reprint in the Duel Deck (with *****in' art), even though THAT reprint is only playable in legacy. It just makes my blood boil.
As for Stormbreath Dragon: this is the one guy we are really going to have a problem with. Getting Dismember for your sideboard is a very good idea. The only problem is I'm not sure how many I should put in the sideboard. I feel with this guy going to be extremely relevant in the meta, a singleton may not be enough.
Yeah, definitely Dismember has to find a place. But now I am seriously thinking about concocting some more tricks by removing the now useless green splash. Maybe a red splash with main deck Boros Charm? If only it dealt 4 damage to creatures instead of players...:(
Honesty green gives us Rancor, Knight of Reliquary and Qasali Pridemage, which I find them very good for the existing meta. I don't think Boros Charm is really suitable in my meta filled with Path to Exile, and I also do not like making space in the deck for more non-creature spells.
Silver Knight is a reprint we could VERY much use. The Pro-Red would allow us to have a beater that can dodge the annoying Lightning Bolts and Helixi. Hell it DID get a reprint in the Duel Deck (with *****in' art), even though THAT reprint is only playable in legacy. It just makes my blood boil.
As for Stormbreath Dragon: this is the one guy we are really going to have a problem with. Getting Dismember for your sideboard is a very good idea. The only problem is I'm not sure how many I should put in the sideboard. I feel with this guy going to be extremely relevant in the meta, a singleton may not be enough.
Silver Knight will be very useful in the current meta, so hopefully we'll see a reprint in standard somewhere down the road ;).
For Dismember in sideboard, probably 3 for me, which means there is still some space in the sideboard for other meta decks etc.
We seldom discuss on Boros Knights here, but the more I look at Chained to the Rocks the more I felt it might just be the best 5th to 8th creature removal spell we could play after the 4 Path to Exile. Heck it might even be better than PtE in some matchups.
We seldom discuss on Boros Knights here, but the more I look at Chained to the Rocks the more I felt it might just be the best 5th to 8th creature removal spell we could play after the 4 Path to Exile. Heck it might even be better than PtE in some matchups.
The problem here is whether we can play enough Mountains to use the spell effectively :-/.
I had thought of this as well. But if we are already considering this card should we not be considering Helix and Bolt in a R/W deck before it? If it WERE to be run in a modern boros knights deck I would say it should be a 1-2 of (probably safe with 2) given the mountain requirement. The land filtering issue, aside from regular fetchlands, can be helped a bit with a set of Flagstones of Trokair instead of some plains (to tutor Sacred Foundry).
There is some potential to be had here. This card deserves some playtesting.
On a side note, a R/W boros knights deck offers up some nice options for card advantage that we don't normally have in WW and GW, such as Magma Jet and Dangerous Wager.
I also think Heliod is worth a bit of playtesting - it's easy to underestimate him but in reality a knights deck satisfies his devotion cost EASILY when nearly every permanent has :symw::symw: in its mana cost. To this end I think we can often count on seeing a 5/6 indestructible creature hit the field, or be ready to attack by turn 5; he supplies a sorely needed ability for our knights (vigilance); he can be cheated out with Vial, and he can poop out tokens at the end of the opponent's turn if we didn't have to use our mana for removal. For the most part, though, I think we can count on him actually playing as a 5/6 creature. This counts for huge, huge board presence in the early game. The :symw::symw: reality on nearly every permanent in our decks is just too good to pass up. I will be trying out a singleton at my next FNM modern night.
I had thought of this as well. But if we are already considering this card should we not be considering Helix and Bolt in a R/W deck before it? If it WERE to be run in a modern boros knights deck I would say it should be a 1-2 of (probably safe with 2) given the mountain requirement. The land filtering issue, aside from regular fetchlands, can be helped a bit with a set of Flagstones of Trokair instead of some plains (to tutor Sacred Foundry).
There is some potential to be had here. This card deserves some playtesting.
On a side note, a R/W boros knights deck offers up some nice options for card advantage that we don't normally have in WW and GW, such as Magma Jet and Dangerous Wager.
I also think Heliod is worth a bit of playtesting - it's easy to underestimate him but in reality a knights deck satisfies his devotion cost EASILY when nearly every permanent has :symw::symw: in its mana cost. To this end I think we can often count on seeing a 5/6 indestructible creature hit the field, or be ready to attack by turn 5; he supplies a sorely needed ability for our knights (vigilance); he can be cheated out with Vial, and he can poop out tokens at the end of the opponent's turn if we didn't have to use our mana for removal. For the most part, though, I think we can count on him actually playing as a 5/6 creature. This counts for huge, huge board presence in the early game. The :symw::symw: reality on nearly every permanent in our decks is just too good to pass up. I will be trying out a singleton at my next FNM modern night.
Yup, maybe it's time to try out a Boros Knight list, you are right though - the usual burn package (Lightning Helix, Lightning Bolt) is always the choice cards in almost all Boros list. I agree on the potential of playing 2 Chained to the Rocks though :nod:, that seems about the right number.
Heliod does look like a playable 4-drop in Modern Knights, can he dislodge Elspeth, Wilt-leaf Liege etc from the decklist?
Not reliable in a deck that can play Bolt, Helix & Path to Exile.
Bolt and Helix may miss out on many creatures too aka Tarmogoyf,Restoration Angel as well...sometimes the 3 damage is not enough to take a creature out. I agree though about the unreliability. Plus I'm scared of Teutonic Edge or Ghost Quarter lolzzzz:rolleyes:
Hey guys just wanted to jump in on the discussion regarding Boros Knights. My experience with a Boros list has always been the lack of powerful knights in R/W aside from Hero of Oxid Ridge and Hero of Bladehold (which can be played in GW or Mono White). I've found the Red splash most useful in a GW Vial based deck (i.e. my Naya Knights list) for the Bolt and the Helix. I've also found Bolt and Helix to be much more reliable removal over Chained to the Rocks as it does not restrict which lands I'm unable to sac to the Knight of the Reliquary.
I also have some more match up results for my Naya Knights vs. Merfolk:
Game 1: This one is easy. If you can play a Vial turn one and it goes uncountered you'll probably win. Spend your mana on removal spells to deal with Lords as they come out and use Qasali Pridemage aggressively to remove their Vials. Avoid tutoring up non-Plains and non-Forest cards (ie don't play them unless you absolutely need to) so you don't die to a Spreading Seas. Cards to watch out for: Counter spells.
Game 2: This is essentially Game 1 again where you side out your equipment, your Elspeth and a Knight of the White Orchid for a fourth Pridemage and 2 Brave the Elements. If they board in counter spells don't be afraid to tutor a Cavern of Souls. Spreading Seas is probably gone. Vapor Snag is pretty painful so keep a Vial set to 2 and another set to 3. Cards to watch out for: Vapor Snag, counter spells.
Game 3: Side your Knight of the White Orchid back in over a Brave the Elements and bring in your Thalias. Avoid playing non-Plains, non-Forest lands again but don't be afraid if you need to. Get your Knight Exemplars out fast and build up board presence. As long as you remove the merfolk lords as they are summoned, kill their Vials and keep Spreading Seas off your lands you're golden. This might sound like a lot but the deck can do it. Cards to watch out for: Vapor Snag, counter spells, Spreading Seas.
The mana base while ambitious, is fantastic at hitting the correct mana when I need it and the Lightning Helices/SoLaS do a fantastic job at recouping lost life from shocking myself on land.
Hey guys just wanted to jump in on the discussion regarding Boros Knights. My experience with a Boros list has always been the lack of powerful knights in R/W aside from Hero of Oxid Ridge and Hero of Bladehold (which can be played in GW or Mono White). I've found the Red splash most useful in a GW Vial based deck (i.e. my Naya Knights list) for the Bolt and the Helix. I've also found Bolt and Helix to be much more reliable removal over Chained to the Rocks as it does not restrict which lands I'm unable to sac to the Knight of the Reliquary.
I also have some more match up results for my Naya Knights vs. Merfolk:
Game 1: This one is easy. If you can play a Vial turn one and it goes uncountered you'll probably win. Spend your mana on removal spells to deal with Lords as they come out and use Qasali Pridemage aggressively to remove their Vials. Avoid tutoring up non-Plains and non-Forest cards (ie don't play them unless you absolutely need to) so you don't die to a Spreading Seas. Cards to watch out for: Counter spells.
Game 2: This is essentially Game 1 again where you side out your equipment, your Elspeth and a Knight of the White Orchid for a fourth Pridemage and 2 Brave the Elements. If they board in counter spells don't be afraid to tutor a Cavern of Souls. Spreading Seas is probably gone. Vapor Snag is pretty painful so keep a Vial set to 2 and another set to 3. Cards to watch out for: Vapor Snag, counter spells.
Game 3: Side your Knight of the White Orchid back in over a Brave the Elements and bring in your Thalias. Avoid playing non-Plains, non-Forest lands again but don't be afraid if you need to. Get your Knight Exemplars out fast and build up board presence. As long as you remove the merfolk lords as they are summoned, kill their Vials and keep Spreading Seas off your lands you're golden. This might sound like a lot but the deck can do it. Cards to watch out for: Vapor Snag, counter spells, Spreading Seas.
The mana base while ambitious, is fantastic at hitting the correct mana when I need it and the Lightning Helices/SoLaS do a fantastic job at recouping lost life from shocking myself on land.
That's a solid Naya Knight list :thumbsup:. I just wish to discuss regarding Knight of Reliquary, sure she is definitely an amazing creature (amazing art too;)), but has her importance been diminished in recent days? Deathrite Shaman in RTR followed by Scavenging Ooze in M14 seems to have somehow reduced her importance and impact in Modern (legacy too). KotR does not seem to be as good as before sad to say. That said, I usually play 2 pieces in my deck, maybe 3 in your list if I really want to get her :-/.
Yes, the manabase is quite some concern here, stuffs like Cavern of Souls makes it even tougher, for example Qasali Pridemage and KotR both needs G but we could only name either Cat or Knight lolz...
Yup I agree there is a lack of power knights for Boros, even Hero of Oxid Ridge is underpowered...and Hero of Bladehold does not really require us to go Boros. It used to be because of Lightning Bolt and Lightning Helix which is why we splashes red, rather than strong Boro knights being the factor. But I also like that playing Helix means we do not need to have Knight of Meadowgrain, personally I always felt some sort of lifelink is always good, allowing us to race against Burn and Tempo decks which are rampant in the meta.
I read through your matchup, nice write up here :thumbsup:, I played against Merfolk before (that was in Legacy though), and pretty much had a positive matchup against them. I'm thinking of adding a link to your post (with Naya decklist/ matchups) in the main primer, do you mind? Let me know if you are fine with this :).
That's the reason I run 11 removal spells. I've found that Deathrite Shaman and Scavenging Ooze are not a big deal if they get Pathed or Bolted turn 1 or turn 2. It's also part of the reason why I have my own Oozes in the sideboard. If my opponent is putting in all the effort to devolve my KotR, I'm going to use my own Ooze(s) to exile their graveyard and grow my own. And should the KotR be left alone, I'm happy to fight them over creatures in the graveyard with my own Ooze where I'm not losing too many resources with a Vial up.
On another note, having a Mirran Crusader and an Ooze out is backbreaking to the guy playing 'Goyf if they can't remove either of them.
I've also been wondering if Sublime Archangel has a place in Knights deck over Elsepth if she's out of your budget. Obviously she's not as good but provides a similar effect with exalted the turn she comes out and the next turn it's bonkers when she flies in. If you're playing Wilt-Leaf Liege and having a Vial up to 4 you can Vial her in EoT for pseudo-haste.
I'm honoured you want to add my deck to the primer. Of course you can :).
I'm not super keen on Aether Vial in this deck, though I know its good and it accelerates aggro deck. I might give it a shot if what I have already doesn't pan out, but my reluctance comes from watching a guy at my shop lose too many games with his mono-white Blink/Golem deck having Aether Vials in his hand and the board, but nothing to play them with. Aether Vial is staple in Merfolks because it lets you play creatures while keeping mana open for counterspells, which is kind of what we're trying to do too, but with Paths and Swords instead of counters. However, what blue has that white doesn't is card-draw, and without it, I think Aether Vial runs the risk of too often being a dead draw.
So instead, I want to try something different, just for the sake of experimentation. I really love Raise the Alarm, and in this deck I plan to use it to support my knights, especially my Mirran Crusaders when playing against Rock. The value it gives you only gets better with Honor of the Pure, and having added bodies helps enable Windbrisk Heights. Elspeth, Knight-Errant is a fantastic card-advantage-generating-engine that hard-counters Liliana of the Veil and allows our doublestrikers to swing for huge amounts of damage. Flavorly, she's also a knight, so why exclude her?
Anyway, just something I wanted to share. I like Aether Vial and I run in my Merfolk deck, but I THINK its a lot better there than it is here, so I wanted to try something else. White offers a lot of utility, so I wanted to focus on that instead of relying on artifacts.
VVriter47 that is an interesting choice on using Raise the Alarm. You should let us know how it works out. It's a good choice of yours to include BtE in the sideboard, that will help a lot versus pyroclasm and the like, or swinging in unblocked with lots of bodies for critical. You should replace Disenchant with Sundering Growth as it is strictly better for your strategy. Depending on your local meta Leyline of Sanctity may be a better choice than Supression Field, especially vs. sac, burn and discard outlets.
This is just my take but I think 4 Elspeth is too many. I would cut her to two and look to include Hero of Bladehold with those other two slots. At 22 land and 4 Orchid knights you should be able to manage having her in play. She seems to synergize with your field a bit better by providing additional tokens, the battle-cry ability, and she becomes Goyf-size with HotP.
I am glad you have also identified the perils of Aether Vial in a mono-white deck. I wrote a rather long post about it on page 94 which no one really seemed to notice.
In regards to your primer update, I think you should emphasize how knights excel in combat efficiency (first strike, double strike, pro-colour), which as cheap creatures give us an edge in locking down the early game. Complimenting this efficiency with a strategy that produces enough combat power to push the early game over the edge should be where the locus of discussion and innovation happens. Knights currently lack a strong enough trick toolbox for Tier 1 and 1.5. They must make up for it by 1) optimizing as much "2 for 1" card advantage as they can (especially with little to no draw engines), 2) focusing on what they excel most in (combat) and capitalizing on it, and 3) reacting properly with builds and SB reference to the meta of the given player. You should also note the fantastic SB options white has can and how it can dramatically alter rounds 2 and 3.
Other than theory, I think you should also discuss with detail the pros and cons of non-staple cards and how/why they should be considered for deckbuilding. These include cards like Thalia, Brave the Elements, Basilisk Collar, Elspeth, Angelic Destiny, etc.
In my personal opinion, I don't necessarily think Aether Vial should be an auto-include for every knight deck, and I will explain why. I know all of the Vial's pros, I have owned a playset for years, and I fully understand their potential; however after lots of play I have learned to view this card differently, and I will endeavor to show you my reasoning why. First, and foremost, it is only a 4-of card that MUST be drawn in your opening hand, or your first or second turns. Mulliganing to 6 or 5 to get ahold of this card is not acceptable, and without draw to pad this you are especially losing card advantage to your opponent. Drawing into your first Aether Vial on turn 3+ for our aggro-style of play is a lost draw and can be fatal. The first few turns of the game are critical for us. And having not drawn one in your opening hand or opening turns means that there are 4 potential awkward/dead draws to be had. There is just less than a 40% chance to draw one Aether Vial in an opening hand of 7 cards in a 60 card deck, and this chance decreases drastically (next to I think ~33%) with each mulligan.
Now in lets say, a Death and Taxes list, or Brian Kibler's Junk, Aether Vial is an auto-include because the game is meant to be dragged out, and a turn or two lost drawing a late vial will not set you back enough to devalue its inclusion. In a knights deck, however, we are looking to win the game as quickly as possible. This can be accomplished by most lists posted here as early as T4 or T5. We don't want matches to go longer than T6 or T7, because we will be outpaced by our opponents at this point as they cast larger and more powerful spells than us. Having a dead draw of this card show up on T4, T5, or T6, etc. when we could have drawn something like a BTE, sword, enchantment, or other non-creature utility spell may cost us the tempo we have built up.
The second reason is that by not emptying your hand of all your creatures so quickly you have potential to stay in the game if your board gets wiped/controlled. Losing a Student, KoM and Mirran Crusader with AD attached during your opponent's phase is much less crushing than losing those AND the 1 or 2 other creatures you could have potentially kept in your hand. Sad to say it a simple, well-placed Pyroclasm or Volcanic Fallout can still break our decks. Keeping a couple of options in hand while simultaneously commanding a strong board presence is (in my opinion) a core part of playing smart in the volatility of removal in the current meta.
Yes, I know that the payoff of a T1 play of Vial is very rewarding. You can actively do combat tricks with Exemplar, Silverblade Paladin and others. There is no discounting the creature flexibility that it grants. To some, this is worth the risk of a ~40% draw chance. And for that reason, I urge that you consider using Aether Vial to literally be a deal with the devil. Players need to know this and keep it in mind as they build. If you luck out, draw one early and play it right you can win big, but if you draw it late, well, you can also potentially lose big. Try drawing into this card on T4 during a high blood-pressure match when you needed something - anything - else and watch it cost you the game. For me, I have been frustrated with the odds of drawing into it and having it show up at inconvenient times later in the match. We have no tutor, effective card draw (other than a small pinch from Horizon Canopy) or control/security setting to fortify ourselves for a longer game to (IMO) fully justify using it here.
Please note I am not saying DON'T use Vial, but rather be cautious of what you are playing and what it might mean for you later in the match. I would be much more comfortable seeing Vial in a Puresteel or UW build than in a Mono-White build.
Other than Vial, some things + inconsistencies in other decks I wanted to point out:
Cavern of Souls: I have seen a lot of people running a full set of this. Why would you run 4 of this and then run 4 Student of Warfare, any non-knight creature and W instants like Path to Exile or BtE? You can't level a student with a Cavern and running 4 of them only can harm your early game more. Also doesn't help Stillmoon Cavalier if you choose to use one. You should run no more than 2, maybe MAX 3 if control is that prevalent in your meta. If you do this you should scale down SoW to 3. Nothing against running a set of 4 Caverns (by all means it helps versus UWR control) but it doesn't make sense to do it with numerous W mana-dependant spells/abilities.
Flagstones of Trokair: Not only security against land sacrifice (i.e. Smallpox) but helps with a bit of deck thinning. And with the new legend rule there is no reason why you shouldn't run 4.
Eiganjo Castle: If you are running Thalia, you should be running one of these.
Thalia: A strong contender for us in the current meta. Absolutely vital versus some of the shenanigans out there, like UWR control and putting a bit of a slowdown on Jund. We will win our matchups against other creatures so this helps even the playing field versus control/combo and a bit of midrange. Even hits Snapcaster for flashback. Will nearly always soak up a killspell for an exemplar and can keep hitting well if you have to play defensively. Combos with Basilisk Collar and Silverblade Paladin.
Potential Strategies: For the primer update, why not include a list of cards that have potential to make a splash but right now are better assigned to budget/casual/alternative play, such as Light from Within, Lightning Greaves, Angelic Overseer, etc.?
Sideboard: Nabby for the primer update you should really detail SB material and how we should respond/side out versus other popular meta decks. I have justified my choices on my TappedOut Knight deck found via the link above (in my previous comment), but i'll also post them here for convenience. I think that the Leyline and RIP should be auto-included for everyone. Maybe Pithing Needle too. They are:
Leyline of Sanctity - Instantly shuts down a number of strategies, including Storm, Seismic Assault , RDW, discard, sacrifice/sucide, Melira Pod's Muderous Redcap, recurring Mindslaver, etc. You either sub in 4 or none of these as you want one in your opening hand.
Oblivion Ring - Classic "catch-all" spot removal that solves almost any problem. The issues it has resolved for my knights deck time and time again has earned it a few permanent SB slots. Always a welcome sight in your hand, it has saved me from numerous, horrific Phyrexian Obliterator, Liliana of the Veil and Seismic Assault shenanigans.
Pithing Needle - Excellent for shutting down specific cards regardless of what zone they are in. Primarily useful against planeswalkers, equipment, some creatures, and some enchantments that knights are weak against like Seismic Assault. Not as strong as O-ring but coming in Round 2 is a very efficient answer to threats, allowing you to save your O-rings for other things that the needle cannot target.
Rest in Peace - The amazing, near OP, single White answer to any graveyard-focused decks. This shuts down the Morbid trigger, Blood Artist trigger, Undying trigger, Zombies, Reanimator, Flashback, Golgari guild abilities (Scavenge and Dredge), and anything non-reanimator that uses the graveyard. Extremely harmful against most combo decks, including the likes of Storm, Retrace-Loam, Melira Pod, etc.
Wrath of God - The shock and awe of the deck, erases all non-indestructible creatures from the field, other than knights made indestructible by one or two Knight Exemplar. As a one-sided boardwipe this card can be devastating, but it has its place in matches. It is subbed in against any other deck that focuses on creature combos and/or creature firepower as a wincon. A cure-all versus tokens, bogle/bant hexproof, naya, and any difficult-to-dislodge creatures.
As you said, it is a risky card when you play it in a deck without card draw. I don't think it should ever be discluded from knight lists, however I don't think it should be auto-included either. Each deck that uses it should build around it somewhat to appropriate for how it might slow down your tempo if the stars don't align... It should never just be thrown in for the sake of it being an aggro knights list.
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Standard WRG Naya Blitz WR Boros Aggro W White Lightning
Modern W Death and Taxes WKnights R Red Deck Wins RG Zoo WG Hatebears WG Aura Hexproof WU Luminarch Ascension WB Tokens WUB Esper Control
'Tact' is the art of making a point without making an enemy. - Sir Isaac Newton
And as water has no constant form, there are in war no constant conditions. - Sun Tzu, The Art of War
Suppression Field is more to counter Splinter Twin and Birthing Pod decks, since they both rely on activated abilities to function (right?). Annoyingly, they're both played in my local meta. Sundering Growth is a good idea and I will probably take your advice on that. Concerning four Elspeth's, I ran two before but found that I was missing her presence either in my hand or on the board, so after seeing Craig Wescoe get a Top 8 at a Standard Pro Tour with a playset in his White Weenie deck, I decided to up her count as well. White offers some of the most efficient small creatures in the game, and being able to consistently give your knights +3/+3 and flying is solid and powerful. Admittedly, Mr. Wescoe also ran a playset of Day of Judgment, 2 main and 2 board, which I suppose strengthens Elspeth's presence on the board. I might consider running a couple Wrath's and an Emeria, the Sky Ruin for late game as well if I find that my creature presence isn't enough to protect Elspeth.
That's the reason I run 11 removal spells. I've found that Deathrite Shaman and Scavenging Ooze are not a big deal if they get Pathed or Bolted turn 1 or turn 2. It's also part of the reason why I have my own Oozes in the sideboard. If my opponent is putting in all the effort to devolve my KotR, I'm going to use my own Ooze(s) to exile their graveyard and grow my own. And should the KotR be left alone, I'm happy to fight them over creatures in the graveyard with my own Ooze where I'm not losing too many resources with a Vial up.
On another note, having a Mirran Crusader and an Ooze out is backbreaking to the guy playing 'Goyf if they can't remove either of them.
I've also been wondering if Sublime Archangel has a place in Knights deck over Elsepth if she's out of your budget. Obviously she's not as good but provides a similar effect with exalted the turn she comes out and the next turn it's bonkers when she flies in. If you're playing Wilt-Leaf Liege and having a Vial up to 4 you can Vial her in EoT for pseudo-haste.
I'm honoured you want to add my deck to the primer. Of course you can :).
I ever thought about playing some Scavenging Ooze in my sideboard, however I had some reservations about the consistency of G in my deck so I eventually didn't. My purpose of running Ooze was more because of graveyard shenanigans rather than fighting off another Ooze or having a big beater myself. I'm prepared to use the Knights to grind them out via protection, indestructibility or KotR's brute strength lolzzz :D.
I'm only playing 1x Mirran Crusader in my GW Vial lists lately, no thanks to all those Bolts and Helix running around. I like Mirran Crusader very much but he can be so fragile it is infuriating :-/.
At the moment I still think either Wilt-Leaf Liege or Elspeth, Knight-Errant is the better 4 drops for knights, or even Heliod, the new white god, which has not been tested yet thus far.
Sure, I'll look into adding the Naya list in my new round of updates ;).
I am glad you have also identified the perils of Aether Vial in a mono-white deck. I wrote a rather long post about it on page 94 which no one really seemed to notice.
I noticed! You reasoned your arguments in such a way that I feel confident that I don't absolutely need them now in my own mono-white list! Not including them also has the lovely effect of bringing the overall price of the deck down a few notches for those of us who don't/can't spend all of our disposable income on Magic
I've also been noticing that quite a few of the newer decklists have been moving more towards Elspeth, Knight-Errant and Angelic Destiny as the main T4 plays over swords of x & y and Kinsbaile Cavalier (I know its not until T5 you can play and equip a sword). I guess I've just been wondering if the Cavalier has become obsolete in light of the newer 4-drops (Heliod, God of the Sun included) as well as the swords being relegated to possible SB options or removed completely? My current setup runs 1 SoF&I and 1 SoL&S as well as 2 Cavaliers.
*Note- I run mono-white, so Wilt-Leaf Liege isn't an option I'm considering atm
I think since Green (offering Tarmogoyf) and Black (offering Bob) are the two most powerful colors in the format, Mirran Crusader is an auto 4-of in the deck, and he already comes with doublestrike. Cavalier is good, but I don't think he's good enough; at 4cmc, I'd rather have some very powerful utility. I'd rather play either Elspeth to strengthen my board position or a Wrath to reset it, in-case I've lost it. You could also play Wilt-Leaf or Hero of Bladehold at 4cmc, but I'm reluctant to use any creature above 3cmc in a mono-white deck; I prefer the white weenie approach.
I haven't had a chance to test my Knight deck at a tourney yet because I was sick, but as soon as I can, I will.
Best way to refill our hand? I'm trying some tweeks to Mono-W knights and would love some help. I'm finding that this is the biggest issue for our deck. We can't refill our hand once we've dumped it like Merfolk can. Thoughts?
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You might want to try mentor of the meek, although that gives a heavy reliance on aether vial so you can have spare mana to draw. In using the puresteel knights version I can usually draw plenty of cards with the paladin online but in those cases I'm usually already ahead.
You could also try the now expensive horizon canopy.
Best way to refill our hand? I'm trying some tweeks to Mono-W knights and would love some help. I'm finding that this is the biggest issue for our deck. We can't refill our hand once we've dumped it like Merfolk can. Thoughts?
Card draw in White is essentially nonexistent. Sure, it has a few cantrips (Wall of Omens, Niveous Wisps, Angelsong) and some gimmicks (Mentor of the Meek, Mesa Enchantress), but they're either mediocre at best or you have to build your deck around them. White's strength lies heavily in its utility, or ability to deal with almost any threat in Magic. It's got good creatures, board wipes, artifact/enchantment hate, damage prevention, etc. It even has spot removal in the form of Path to Exile, which even MTG Developer Mark Rosewater admits is a mistake for White to have. That's why Blue/White Control is such a powerful archetype in Magic; Blue, which is the strongest color for draw, fuels White's ability to deal with anything and further supports it with counterspells.
If you're going mono-White, then you don't have access to Blue's draw power, but mono-White doesn't need card draw to be strong. Card advantage can be generated in other forms that don't include the size of your hand. A lot of Knight players use equipment artifacts like the Swords of Mirrodin block, because they stay on the field even if the wielder dies and can turn even 1/1's into 3/3 threats with protection and nasty abilities. You can use other equipment cards too that are cheaper and/or more resilient. Craig Wescoe, a very successful Magic Pro Tour White Weenie player, is a huge fan of cheapies like Darksteel Axe, Trusty Machete, Civic Saber, etc, because they effectively double the power of your creatures, or as Mr. Wescoe put it, "allows your Dryad Militant to trade with a Loxodon Smiter." If you go that route, then Puresteel Paladin could even be a legitimate card-draw engine for you. Just be careful to not over-saturate your deck with too many equipments, and add cards like Steelshaper's Gift to let you fetch them. A lot of Knights already have protection, so giving say a Sword of Fire and Ice to a Mirran Crusader gives you a nigh-invincible doublestriker that can deal an additional 4 damage and draws you 2 cards whenever it turns sideways!
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I actually mainboard the lieges and they are certainly useful for me against Jund, but not so much against other matchups especially those requiring me to race with. Usually I noticed in my games, a liege is usually smaller than a Goyf, and vialing a liege also does not save our Knight Exemplar from Lightning Bolt/Lightning Helix. I did drop down a Liege in response to Liliana of the Veil's first ability but by and large having the Liege definitely improves my chances against Jund since Liege does increase Tribal Knights power level with its body and anthem effect thus working better against mid-range decks.
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[Deck/Primer] Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Darth Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Casual Knights in Legacy
[Deck/Primer] Modern Knights
[Deck/Primer] Modern Ninjas
LEGACY
Legacy Knights Variants WG,WU,WR,WB,W,B
Soldiers Stompy W
NinjaStill UB
FOWless Merfolk UW
Aggro Elves G
MODERN
Modern Knights Variants WG,BR
Modern Ninjas Variants UB,UG,UW,UWR
Modern Kithkins WR,W
Do you play Paladin en-Vec or Fiendslayer Paladin? What I encounter against Junk or decks with hand discard is they will usually remove them and add in more creature removal thus reducing the effectiveness of Leyline of Sanctity. They usually remove their hand discard when they realise we don't have combo card or big bombs they cannot handle.
I hate to refer to a new or potential card as ‘win more’ since it is akin to writing a card off immediately, that said I look at Heliod, God of the Sun more like a card to break a stalemate. As usual, to determine if the new white God is worthy of a chance to lead Modern Knights we will compare with other 4cc spells at the moment such as the likes of Elspeth, Knight-Errant, Wilt-leaf Liege or Kinsbaile Cavalier – or even another 3cc Knight or equipment Sword. Although I do agree it seems quite easy to achieve Devotion as most of the knights requires WW, personally I think the other 4cc spells are better from a situational and consistency viewpoint :-/.
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[Deck/Primer] Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Darth Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Casual Knights in Legacy
[Deck/Primer] Modern Knights
[Deck/Primer] Modern Ninjas
LEGACY
Legacy Knights Variants WG,WU,WR,WB,W,B
Soldiers Stompy W
NinjaStill UB
FOWless Merfolk UW
Aggro Elves G
MODERN
Modern Knights Variants WG,BR
Modern Ninjas Variants UB,UG,UW,UWR
Modern Kithkins WR,W
I actually maindecked a few Paladin en-Vec. At 2/2 for 3 mana, they are pretty underwhelming from a power/toughness perspective, but with Rancor they do pack a punch from there. I had to play Paladin en-Vec simply because red removal are just so rampant in my UWR, Jund and Burn meta :-/.
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[Deck/Primer] Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Darth Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Casual Knights in Legacy
[Deck/Primer] Modern Knights
[Deck/Primer] Modern Ninjas
LEGACY
Legacy Knights Variants WG,WU,WR,WB,W,B
Soldiers Stompy W
NinjaStill UB
FOWless Merfolk UW
Aggro Elves G
MODERN
Modern Knights Variants WG,BR
Modern Ninjas Variants UB,UG,UW,UWR
Modern Kithkins WR,W
Lightning bolt/red damage spells are a major part of my meta too. I wish Wizards would reprint Silver Knight.
Yes, it would be great if we could have Silver Knight in Modern, he would be perfectly placed as a 2 drop creature in our meta :).
I think there's a chance of playing Spear of Heliod. Personally I do not even run Honor of the Pure due to the lack of space in the deck (I would play anthem spells if there is no Vial though ;)). The spear has its merits even when you ended up creatureless because you could still use your mana to kill off opponent's attackers therefore it is not as useless as the typical anthem when no creature is in play. As a legendary permanent, and because of it's mana cost I think 2 Heliod + 2 Honor or 1 Heliod + 3 Honor type of combinations should be worth testing around and might just be viable.
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[Deck/Primer] Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Darth Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Casual Knights in Legacy
[Deck/Primer] Modern Knights
[Deck/Primer] Modern Ninjas
LEGACY
Legacy Knights Variants WG,WU,WR,WB,W,B
Soldiers Stompy W
NinjaStill UB
FOWless Merfolk UW
Aggro Elves G
MODERN
Modern Knights Variants WG,BR
Modern Ninjas Variants UB,UG,UW,UWR
Modern Kithkins WR,W
Yes I mostly agree on Spear of Heliod being too situational, should be worth testing out though, it might be useful on a slower meta I guess .
Stormbreath Dragon is pretty scary, with its pro white (which is literally in anti-Knight color) :(. I think Decks with red splash might be tempted to play him especially since he dodges Path to Exile and requires 2 burn spells to take him out, it seems like only Black has a better answer against it. If you expect to see this dragon, sideboarding Dismember shouldn't be a bad idea at all. Dismember can also serve as additional removals after the usually mandatory 4 PtE.
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[Deck/Primer] Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Darth Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Casual Knights in Legacy
[Deck/Primer] Modern Knights
[Deck/Primer] Modern Ninjas
LEGACY
Legacy Knights Variants WG,WU,WR,WB,W,B
Soldiers Stompy W
NinjaStill UB
FOWless Merfolk UW
Aggro Elves G
MODERN
Modern Knights Variants WG,BR
Modern Ninjas Variants UB,UG,UW,UWR
Modern Kithkins WR,W
Silver Knight is a reprint we could VERY much use. The Pro-Red would allow us to have a beater that can dodge the annoying Lightning Bolts and Helixi. Hell it DID get a reprint in the Duel Deck (with *****in' art), even though THAT reprint is only playable in legacy. It just makes my blood boil.
As for Stormbreath Dragon: this is the one guy we are really going to have a problem with. Getting Dismember for your sideboard is a very good idea. The only problem is I'm not sure how many I should put in the sideboard. I feel with this guy going to be extremely relevant in the meta, a singleton may not be enough.
RWGisela, Blade of Explosions
Honesty green gives us Rancor, Knight of Reliquary and Qasali Pridemage, which I find them very good for the existing meta. I don't think Boros Charm is really suitable in my meta filled with Path to Exile, and I also do not like making space in the deck for more non-creature spells.
Silver Knight will be very useful in the current meta, so hopefully we'll see a reprint in standard somewhere down the road ;).
For Dismember in sideboard, probably 3 for me, which means there is still some space in the sideboard for other meta decks etc.
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[Deck/Primer] Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Darth Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Casual Knights in Legacy
[Deck/Primer] Modern Knights
[Deck/Primer] Modern Ninjas
LEGACY
Legacy Knights Variants WG,WU,WR,WB,W,B
Soldiers Stompy W
NinjaStill UB
FOWless Merfolk UW
Aggro Elves G
MODERN
Modern Knights Variants WG,BR
Modern Ninjas Variants UB,UG,UW,UWR
Modern Kithkins WR,W
We seldom discuss on Boros Knights here, but the more I look at Chained to the Rocks the more I felt it might just be the best 5th to 8th creature removal spell we could play after the 4 Path to Exile. Heck it might even be better than PtE in some matchups.
We could also play Naya Knights for the Mountain/ Sacred Foundry or have Knight of Reliquary tutor out a Sacred Foundry in a GW Knights deck.
The problem here is whether we can play enough Mountains to use the spell effectively :-/.
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[Deck/Primer] Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Darth Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Casual Knights in Legacy
[Deck/Primer] Modern Knights
[Deck/Primer] Modern Ninjas
LEGACY
Legacy Knights Variants WG,WU,WR,WB,W,B
Soldiers Stompy W
NinjaStill UB
FOWless Merfolk UW
Aggro Elves G
MODERN
Modern Knights Variants WG,BR
Modern Ninjas Variants UB,UG,UW,UWR
Modern Kithkins WR,W
There is some potential to be had here. This card deserves some playtesting.
On a side note, a R/W boros knights deck offers up some nice options for card advantage that we don't normally have in WW and GW, such as Magma Jet and Dangerous Wager.
I also think Heliod is worth a bit of playtesting - it's easy to underestimate him but in reality a knights deck satisfies his devotion cost EASILY when nearly every permanent has :symw::symw: in its mana cost. To this end I think we can often count on seeing a 5/6 indestructible creature hit the field, or be ready to attack by turn 5; he supplies a sorely needed ability for our knights (vigilance); he can be cheated out with Vial, and he can poop out tokens at the end of the opponent's turn if we didn't have to use our mana for removal. For the most part, though, I think we can count on him actually playing as a 5/6 creature. This counts for huge, huge board presence in the early game. The :symw::symw: reality on nearly every permanent in our decks is just too good to pass up. I will be trying out a singleton at my next FNM modern night.
WRG Naya Blitz
WR Boros Aggro
W White Lightning
Modern
W Death and Taxes
W Knights
R Red Deck Wins
RG Zoo
WG Hatebears
WG Aura Hexproof
WU Luminarch Ascension
WB Tokens
WUB Esper Control
And as water has no constant form, there are in war no constant conditions. - Sun Tzu, The Art of War
Yup, maybe it's time to try out a Boros Knight list, you are right though - the usual burn package (Lightning Helix, Lightning Bolt) is always the choice cards in almost all Boros list. I agree on the potential of playing 2 Chained to the Rocks though :nod:, that seems about the right number.
Heliod does look like a playable 4-drop in Modern Knights, can he dislodge Elspeth, Wilt-leaf Liege etc from the decklist?
Bolt and Helix may miss out on many creatures too aka Tarmogoyf, Restoration Angel as well...sometimes the 3 damage is not enough to take a creature out. I agree though about the unreliability. Plus I'm scared of Teutonic Edge or Ghost Quarter lolzzzz:rolleyes:
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[Deck/Primer] Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Darth Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Casual Knights in Legacy
[Deck/Primer] Modern Knights
[Deck/Primer] Modern Ninjas
LEGACY
Legacy Knights Variants WG,WU,WR,WB,W,B
Soldiers Stompy W
NinjaStill UB
FOWless Merfolk UW
Aggro Elves G
MODERN
Modern Knights Variants WG,BR
Modern Ninjas Variants UB,UG,UW,UWR
Modern Kithkins WR,W
I also have some more match up results for my Naya Knights vs. Merfolk:
Game 1: This one is easy. If you can play a Vial turn one and it goes uncountered you'll probably win. Spend your mana on removal spells to deal with Lords as they come out and use Qasali Pridemage aggressively to remove their Vials. Avoid tutoring up non-Plains and non-Forest cards (ie don't play them unless you absolutely need to) so you don't die to a Spreading Seas. Cards to watch out for: Counter spells.
Game 2: This is essentially Game 1 again where you side out your equipment, your Elspeth and a Knight of the White Orchid for a fourth Pridemage and 2 Brave the Elements. If they board in counter spells don't be afraid to tutor a Cavern of Souls. Spreading Seas is probably gone. Vapor Snag is pretty painful so keep a Vial set to 2 and another set to 3. Cards to watch out for: Vapor Snag, counter spells.
Game 3: Side your Knight of the White Orchid back in over a Brave the Elements and bring in your Thalias. Avoid playing non-Plains, non-Forest lands again but don't be afraid if you need to. Get your Knight Exemplars out fast and build up board presence. As long as you remove the merfolk lords as they are summoned, kill their Vials and keep Spreading Seas off your lands you're golden. This might sound like a lot but the deck can do it. Cards to watch out for: Vapor Snag, counter spells, Spreading Seas.
Also an update to the list
4 Knight Exemplar
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Knight of the White Orchid
3 Mirran Crusader
3 Qasali Pridemage
4 Student of Warfare
SPELLS
4 AEther Vial
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
4 Path to Exile
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Lightning Helix
4 Temple Garden
2 Plains
3 Sacred Foundry
2 Stomping Ground
3 Arid Mesa
2 Cavern of Souls
2 Flagstones of Trokair
2 Forest
1 Gavony Township
2 Brave the Elements
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Kitchen Finks
1 Qasali Pridemage
3 Relic of Progenitus
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Stony Silence
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
The mana base while ambitious, is fantastic at hitting the correct mana when I need it and the Lightning Helices/SoLaS do a fantastic job at recouping lost life from shocking myself on land.
That's a solid Naya Knight list :thumbsup:. I just wish to discuss regarding Knight of Reliquary, sure she is definitely an amazing creature (amazing art too;)), but has her importance been diminished in recent days? Deathrite Shaman in RTR followed by Scavenging Ooze in M14 seems to have somehow reduced her importance and impact in Modern (legacy too). KotR does not seem to be as good as before sad to say. That said, I usually play 2 pieces in my deck, maybe 3 in your list if I really want to get her :-/.
Yes, the manabase is quite some concern here, stuffs like Cavern of Souls makes it even tougher, for example Qasali Pridemage and KotR both needs G but we could only name either Cat or Knight lolz...
Yup I agree there is a lack of power knights for Boros, even Hero of Oxid Ridge is underpowered...and Hero of Bladehold does not really require us to go Boros. It used to be because of Lightning Bolt and Lightning Helix which is why we splashes red, rather than strong Boro knights being the factor. But I also like that playing Helix means we do not need to have Knight of Meadowgrain, personally I always felt some sort of lifelink is always good, allowing us to race against Burn and Tempo decks which are rampant in the meta.
I read through your matchup, nice write up here :thumbsup:, I played against Merfolk before (that was in Legacy though), and pretty much had a positive matchup against them. I'm thinking of adding a link to your post (with Naya decklist/ matchups) in the main primer, do you mind? Let me know if you are fine with this :).
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[Deck/Primer] Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Darth Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Casual Knights in Legacy
[Deck/Primer] Modern Knights
[Deck/Primer] Modern Ninjas
LEGACY
Legacy Knights Variants WG,WU,WR,WB,W,B
Soldiers Stompy W
NinjaStill UB
FOWless Merfolk UW
Aggro Elves G
MODERN
Modern Knights Variants WG,BR
Modern Ninjas Variants UB,UG,UW,UWR
Modern Kithkins WR,W
On another note, having a Mirran Crusader and an Ooze out is backbreaking to the guy playing 'Goyf if they can't remove either of them.
I've also been wondering if Sublime Archangel has a place in Knights deck over Elsepth if she's out of your budget. Obviously she's not as good but provides a similar effect with exalted the turn she comes out and the next turn it's bonkers when she flies in. If you're playing Wilt-Leaf Liege and having a Vial up to 4 you can Vial her in EoT for pseudo-haste.
I'm honoured you want to add my deck to the primer. Of course you can :).
4x Knight Exemplar
4x Knight of Meadowgrain
4x Knight of the White Orchid
4x Mirran Crusader
4x Student of Warfare
Instants:
4x Path to Exile
4x Raise the Alarm
4x Honor of the Pure
2x Oblivion Ring
Planeswalkers:
4x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
Lands:
20x Plains
2x Windbrisk Heights
4x Brave the Elements
4x Disenchant
1x Oblivion Ring
3x Rest in Peace
3x Suppression Field
I'm not super keen on Aether Vial in this deck, though I know its good and it accelerates aggro deck. I might give it a shot if what I have already doesn't pan out, but my reluctance comes from watching a guy at my shop lose too many games with his mono-white Blink/Golem deck having Aether Vials in his hand and the board, but nothing to play them with. Aether Vial is staple in Merfolks because it lets you play creatures while keeping mana open for counterspells, which is kind of what we're trying to do too, but with Paths and Swords instead of counters. However, what blue has that white doesn't is card-draw, and without it, I think Aether Vial runs the risk of too often being a dead draw.
So instead, I want to try something different, just for the sake of experimentation. I really love Raise the Alarm, and in this deck I plan to use it to support my knights, especially my Mirran Crusaders when playing against Rock. The value it gives you only gets better with Honor of the Pure, and having added bodies helps enable Windbrisk Heights. Elspeth, Knight-Errant is a fantastic card-advantage-generating-engine that hard-counters Liliana of the Veil and allows our doublestrikers to swing for huge amounts of damage. Flavorly, she's also a knight, so why exclude her?
Anyway, just something I wanted to share. I like Aether Vial and I run in my Merfolk deck, but I THINK its a lot better there than it is here, so I wanted to try something else. White offers a lot of utility, so I wanted to focus on that instead of relying on artifacts.
This is just my take but I think 4 Elspeth is too many. I would cut her to two and look to include Hero of Bladehold with those other two slots. At 22 land and 4 Orchid knights you should be able to manage having her in play. She seems to synergize with your field a bit better by providing additional tokens, the battle-cry ability, and she becomes Goyf-size with HotP.
I am glad you have also identified the perils of Aether Vial in a mono-white deck. I wrote a rather long post about it on page 94 which no one really seemed to notice.
WRG Naya Blitz
WR Boros Aggro
W White Lightning
Modern
W Death and Taxes
W Knights
R Red Deck Wins
RG Zoo
WG Hatebears
WG Aura Hexproof
WU Luminarch Ascension
WB Tokens
WUB Esper Control
And as water has no constant form, there are in war no constant conditions. - Sun Tzu, The Art of War
I may even try droping 1 Raise the Alarm and 1 Honor of the Pure for 2 Wrath of God's. But that will be later, because all I have is Day of Judgment and Wrath of the God is obviously better.
I ever thought about playing some Scavenging Ooze in my sideboard, however I had some reservations about the consistency of G in my deck so I eventually didn't. My purpose of running Ooze was more because of graveyard shenanigans rather than fighting off another Ooze or having a big beater myself. I'm prepared to use the Knights to grind them out via protection, indestructibility or KotR's brute strength lolzzz :D.
I'm only playing 1x Mirran Crusader in my GW Vial lists lately, no thanks to all those Bolts and Helix running around. I like Mirran Crusader very much but he can be so fragile it is infuriating :-/.
At the moment I still think either Wilt-Leaf Liege or Elspeth, Knight-Errant is the better 4 drops for knights, or even Heliod, the new white god, which has not been tested yet thus far.
Sure, I'll look into adding the Naya list in my new round of updates ;).
Signature by Syndarion from Aeternal Studios!
[Deck/Primer] Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Darth Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Casual Knights in Legacy
[Deck/Primer] Modern Knights
[Deck/Primer] Modern Ninjas
LEGACY
Legacy Knights Variants WG,WU,WR,WB,W,B
Soldiers Stompy W
NinjaStill UB
FOWless Merfolk UW
Aggro Elves G
MODERN
Modern Knights Variants WG,BR
Modern Ninjas Variants UB,UG,UW,UWR
Modern Kithkins WR,W
I noticed! You reasoned your arguments in such a way that I feel confident that I don't absolutely need them now in my own mono-white list! Not including them also has the lovely effect of bringing the overall price of the deck down a few notches for those of us who don't/can't spend all of our disposable income on Magic
I've also been noticing that quite a few of the newer decklists have been moving more towards Elspeth, Knight-Errant and Angelic Destiny as the main T4 plays over swords of x & y and Kinsbaile Cavalier (I know its not until T5 you can play and equip a sword). I guess I've just been wondering if the Cavalier has become obsolete in light of the newer 4-drops (Heliod, God of the Sun included) as well as the swords being relegated to possible SB options or removed completely? My current setup runs 1 SoF&I and 1 SoL&S as well as 2 Cavaliers.
*Note- I run mono-white, so Wilt-Leaf Liege isn't an option I'm considering atm
I haven't had a chance to test my Knight deck at a tourney yet because I was sick, but as soon as I can, I will.
Best way to refill our hand? I'm trying some tweeks to Mono-W knights and would love some help. I'm finding that this is the biggest issue for our deck. We can't refill our hand once we've dumped it like Merfolk can. Thoughts?
Modern Warp / UR Control / UR Storm / Naya Breachshift / ElectroBalance
Solidarity / Lands / Sneak and Show / Grixis Delver / Reanimator / Belcher / Storm / Dredge
You could also try the now expensive horizon canopy.
Thanx to Bookworm10 for the Sig.
Check out my YouTube Channel https://www.youtube.com/user/ThyrixSyx
Cockatrice: shadowkill
Rules Adviser
Card draw in White is essentially nonexistent. Sure, it has a few cantrips (Wall of Omens, Niveous Wisps, Angelsong) and some gimmicks (Mentor of the Meek, Mesa Enchantress), but they're either mediocre at best or you have to build your deck around them. White's strength lies heavily in its utility, or ability to deal with almost any threat in Magic. It's got good creatures, board wipes, artifact/enchantment hate, damage prevention, etc. It even has spot removal in the form of Path to Exile, which even MTG Developer Mark Rosewater admits is a mistake for White to have. That's why Blue/White Control is such a powerful archetype in Magic; Blue, which is the strongest color for draw, fuels White's ability to deal with anything and further supports it with counterspells.
If you're going mono-White, then you don't have access to Blue's draw power, but mono-White doesn't need card draw to be strong. Card advantage can be generated in other forms that don't include the size of your hand. A lot of Knight players use equipment artifacts like the Swords of Mirrodin block, because they stay on the field even if the wielder dies and can turn even 1/1's into 3/3 threats with protection and nasty abilities. You can use other equipment cards too that are cheaper and/or more resilient. Craig Wescoe, a very successful Magic Pro Tour White Weenie player, is a huge fan of cheapies like Darksteel Axe, Trusty Machete, Civic Saber, etc, because they effectively double the power of your creatures, or as Mr. Wescoe put it, "allows your Dryad Militant to trade with a Loxodon Smiter." If you go that route, then Puresteel Paladin could even be a legitimate card-draw engine for you. Just be careful to not over-saturate your deck with too many equipments, and add cards like Steelshaper's Gift to let you fetch them. A lot of Knights already have protection, so giving say a Sword of Fire and Ice to a Mirran Crusader gives you a nigh-invincible doublestriker that can deal an additional 4 damage and draws you 2 cards whenever it turns sideways!