I assume you’re voting me for the same reason that paperblade voted me for, correct?
No. I voted you for the sake of moving us out of the RVS - as I knew you were gunning for - and to see how Mister Paper reacted to it.
Quote from Void »
This post is debatable because of paperblade’s reasoning for the “lynch Void” comment. One thing I found odd is that I knew what paperblade was attempting to do; yet, Blue did not, but was willing to accept the reasoning in a later post, but didn’t for what I chalk down to as her gut. Something about that does not feel right to me.
I have seen too many people attempt to make vote gambits through misspelling "vote" or what have you recently to have let that one slide.
Quote from Void »
As for the jump that Blue made from myself to paperblade; this may be seen many ways. The two ways that are sticking out in my head are: It could be an opportunistic jump for bad play; it could be seen as a Scum buddy trying to bus.
...or I could be town who believes that Mister Paper is scum based on his contradictory reasoning for voting you.
You also voted for Void without offering an explanation prior to switching your vote to Paper. What was your thought process there?
My thought process was, "Vote for Mister Void and see what Mister Paper does, as well as how Mister Void reacts."
However, upon further consideration, I found more and more wrong with the manner in which Mister Paper approached the Mister Void wagon. ^^ As such, I did not wish to miss an opportunity to shift the momentum on to Mister Paper, though ultimately I would have much preferred to see what else would have fallen out of the tree in the process.
It’s probably because the word “opportunity” is in the sentence, but the bolded reads like Scum wording it towards a Town member.[/QUOTE]
You are incorrect, Mister Void. I recognize that following RVS, the person with the loudest argument is typically followed first. I did not wish to lose the sway of the post-RVS voting bloc that would inevitably develop at some point, so I opted to play striker and head off the momentum at the pass by corralling you all in the direction I desired the game to go. ^^ I am attempting to establish myself as a town leader early on due to the nature of my role.
Surely you do not find this out of line with anything I have done in the past, Mister Void.
@Blue - when you placed your vote on Void first, why would that trigger a reaction from Paper since he already had his vote on Void?
As stated, I did not necessarily believe Mister Paper's vote to be of a genuine nature. This is evidenced by my follow-up questions to Mister Paper as to his RVS "preferences".
Quote from DCIII »
Also, do you really think that Paper was intentionally faking a vote by using lynch vs. vote? His intent to vote for Void was clear. His reasoning for voting for Void's NL vote seems like enough of a place to start the line of questioning without reaching for more to add to the case.
I addressed Mister Void on this already. It was not necessarily true that Mister Paper was intending to place a solid vote on Mister Void, as I sensed sinister intentions from Mister Paper in regards to his quasi-vote on Mister Void.
Quote from DCIII »
This post seems very off to me.
@Idle - I see where you say you don't see any scum reasoning for the pseudo-vote, so then why say that you aren't convinced that he is used to the lynch syntax and press the issue by asking him where it's common? If there isn't a scum reason to do it, why does it matter? It looks like you're trying to throw suspicion on Paper without committing to thinking his behavior is scummy.
Also - you ask what "so grabbed" Blue's attention about PaperBlade compared to other players when it was very clearly the fact that he cast the first real vote of the game. This after basically barning her suspicion that he got tripped up with the syntax.
This post doesn't appear to come from any real place of curiosity but, rather, more be an attempt to cast suspicion on other players.
Vote: Idle Muse
I concur wholeheartedly, Mister DC. I believe Mister Muse was attempting to allow himself room to jump on the Mister Paper wagon but avoid it completely if necessary due to the phrasing he used - a textbook example of hedging one's bets. I was quietly musing (^_^) about whether or not this was an individual tell or associative tell but determined that I felt Mister Muse was likely to be mafia-aligned regardless of Mister Paper's alignment.
I believe you are town for this post - not just for agreeing with me, but for pursuing an entirely new route of scumhunting that was not readily available through the potential wagons on myself and Mister Paper thus far.
I would vote for Blue, but I can't pin down why that post doesn't feel right to me.
It is because as Miss Blue I tend to use needlessly obfuscating diction and complicated sentence structure choices instead of resorting to standard slang to maintain my pleasant persona, keep my mindset separated from what it typically is when I play Mafia - you will note that Miss Blue is a far more composed and organized player, which helps me tunnel less when I am wrong - and to allow me room to insert dripping sarcasm undetected when it is suited to the situation.
Firstly, Mister Paper did not actually vote for Mister Void. I am relatively certain Mister Paper did not do this accidentally, as he demonstrates a clear understanding of bits of Mafia Theory. This is suspect because it does not leave Mister Paper accountable for any wagon that may occur on Mister Void while simultaneously giving him an in to the wagon if it does, in fact, develop. Also, it allows Mister Paper to potentially trap people who attempted to "follow" him on to the wagon on Mister Void. ^^
Finally, Mister Paper's explanation for voting Void is feeble and contradictory. Mister Void voted for a No Lynch, which allegedly does not help the game leave RVS...which spurred Mister Paper to leave RVS...by voting for Mister Void.
I do believe this is the correct direction for the Day.
Yeah there's no way this post comes from a town mindset. You're scum.
Unvote; Vote: Blue Electric
Please, Mister Rebel, walk me through why a member of the town could never make this post. I await your explanation eagerly.
Quote from iRebel »
It's the mindset from which Blue's post comes from. I don't see any scenario where it comes from a town mindset.
I'm going to wait to see more from Blue Electric because I think I know who she is and this isn't nearly enough content to get a strong read.
Why, I am quite obviously town. I am stunned you can not see it yet, Mister Cythare. Also, if you are aware of my identity, I would prefer you keep it to yourself for those who are unaware. ^^ Thank you.
No fair! I want to vote Rhand like the mod did in the OP! Not fair! :armcross:
In lighter spirits: Vote: No Lynch
Unvote, Vote Void
3. Blue gets all over Paper for using lynch isntead of vote.
4. Paper justifies using lynch as a meta thing.
5. Blue justifies her focusing on Paper's vote of Void: (bolded emphasis is mine)
Why the focus on Paperblade at that point? What so grabbed your attention about them previous to your vote on Void, compared to other players?
It seemed completely out of place. There was no attempt to encourage discussion, no explanation beyond "because No Lynch", the mindset and emotions looked strange, and it felt like an opportunistic vote. Things like that are red flags to people who put stock into RVS analysis. ^^
What I see is Blue admitting to focusing on Paper for something that Blue also did.
Vote: BlueElectric
This is fallacious at best, Mister Zombie. ^^ You are stating that I did not encourage discussion - but I did, in fact, encourage discussion. I followed Mister Paper on to Mister Void and did not provide ANY reasoning - not even "because No Lynch" - I merely quoted the post in question - which I imagined would spur people to action. I have explained all of those above whilst addressing Mister Void. That aside, I never had any intention of lynching Mister Void - my purpose was to see if Mister Paper would slip because I did not like his vote on Mister Void and wanted to expose him as mafia to the rest of you. However, I realized that the momentum was about to shift, and as such, I placed my vote on him. Ergo, you are voting me for placing a vote on Mister Void that was attempted to bait out mafia and facilitate discussion - not to lynch Mister Void - because you misunderstand my intentions.
Basically, when I read blue's post, I see it as a forced attempt to make a logical point. He takes the point and asks a continuing set of questions that'll produce a desired conclusion -- why would town do that?
Gee, Mister Rebel, why on earth would I allow the town to follow my train of thought for how I determined Mister Paper was mafia-aligned? Perhaps because I wish for a wagon to develop on him? But a member of the town would never do that, right?
When I believe people hold beliefs that are illogical or fallacious outside of Mafia, I like to ask them a series of questions based on what their belief is to allow them to come to the same conclusion I have. I think of it as "mentally holding their hand" since I am leading them to draw the conclusions, themselves.
Additionally, arguments are constructed through "fact -> expounding analysis -> inference -> conclusion" format, or were you not aware that you had to show your work to get full credit (or, in this case, convince other people of your viewpoints)?
You are being uncharacteristically aggressive, Mister Rebel. Why is that?
@Blue: There's nothing about the case to really respond to. You seem to think I'm cheerleading a case with a fake vote so that I can hop on the wagon later, but... then what's the point of the fake vote? Heck, what's the point in waiting to vote? You could say it removes suspicion from me later except anyone who's rereading will say "Hey that Paperblade guy started this wagon but didn't have the balls to put a vote down!" Or, like, whenever the mod puts down votals and I'm still listed as not voting? Or anyone who's reading now. It just seems like an overly paranoid conspiracy theory to me.
Unvote, Vote BlueElectric
This is a complete and total strawman of the case I presented against you and a highly opportunistic OMGUS counter-vote. The crux of my argument, Mister Paper, was not that you were not committing to the wagon, and if you genuinely believe that, you need to take a moment to re-read my posts. You also have some questions I asked you that you need to answer.
Also - you say "It just seems like an overly paranoid conspiracy theory to me."
If I am paranoid, would that not indicate that I am town-aligned? Why would mafia have to be paranoid about players who attempt to start wagons without being held accountable for them? If anything, the logical play for a mafia-aligned Miss Blue would be for me to follow through with the wagon on Mister Void and use the momentum from that to push you after Mister Void [in this scenario] flips town.
Finally, I have seen mafia-aligned players perform similar actions to what I have accused you of - a prime example of this occurring was in Eeveelution Mafia, where Mister Seppel effectively counterclaimed Mister Tordeck, which caused Mister Tordeck's imminent demise - but nobody except for Mister Iso in that game attempted to hold Mister Seppel accountable for the slaughter of Mister Tordeck, and it ended up with the town losing as a result.
So yes, I am paranoid. Paranoid that such would be allowed to occur in this game.
I'm going to wait to see more from Blue Electric because I think I know who she is and this isn't nearly enough content to get a strong read.
Cythare, surely if you have suspicion that BlueElectric is someone other than she appears, then you can read up on her other posts in order to get a stronger understanding of her meta, not a weaker one?
I am relatively certain that Mister Cythare would not be able to compare my play on my main account to my play on this account in the slightest. ^^
While your explanation for the lack of vote seems valid, Mister Paper, I am still inclined to call bull. ^^ Firstly, referring to my theory as "pretty wild" is a handwave, and a poor attempt to discredit me at best. Secondly, why are you not fond of leaving RVS in that particular manner? What is your preferred manner, and how does it differ from the manner in which Mister Void left RVS? Finally, how does that indicate the color red in Mister Void's role PM?
Most of these questions are useless. I don't think we learn anything by knowing what Paper's "preferred method" for leaving RVS is. What do you think that does for us?
It shows Mister Paper's motives for voting Mister Void - I believe Mister Paper was attempting to swing at an easy mislynch in Mister Void based on the No Lynch vote. It also proves that Mister Paper was contradicting himself in his reasoning and retroactively making up reasons for voting Mister Void.
Quote from FIGHTING »
This is of course not to mention that your premise is faulty; i.e., paperblade actually did vote.
Again, there was no possible way for me to determine that at the time, Miss FIGHTING.
Quote from FIGHTING »
You also know exactly why voting a non-player in RVS is bad. Don't you remember when we used our Girl Power™ to bring somebody to L-2 off of a bad RVS vote? What's different here?
Are you referring to Mister Void's vote for a No Lynch? If so, the difference is that Mister Void is experienced enough to know that voting a non-player nets negative reactions. Mister Void's intent to leave RVS was plain to me, and that is another reason I do not believe Mister Paper to be town-aligned - because Mister Void's purpose was so obvious.
Quote from FIGHTING »
Void's post looks questionable, though given his experience I buy that he was reaction baiting with it. For Paperblade, who by the fact that he used the Lynch syntax indicates that he's unfamiliar with our playerbase, a vote there fits.
Again, it was obvious to me that Mister Void was baiting for a reaction. However, regarding your stance on Mister Paper, I disagree that a vote there fits. I think he may have THOUGHT it would fit there, but in doing so, inadvertently blundered.
Quote from FIGHTING »
tl;dr: you're shoveling crap and I want to know why.
Anyway, regarding Paperblade: While the syntax is odd, I don't believe that to be a way of voting while not voting (an FOS would have been much easier). However, the way paper does just jump on Void looks incredibly bad, and blue's barning and then trying to pass it off as reaction baiting looks worse. Here's what bothers me most:
Firstly, Mister Paper did not actually vote for Mister Void.
Finally, Mister Paper's explanation for voting Void
Paperblade doesn't actually explain the whole syntax thing until half an hour after that post. So Blue knew Paper was trying to vote, but twisting it to make it look bad. I still don't like Paper, but Blue's more visible right now.
Vote: BlueElectric
How on earth did you expect I should determine that Mister Paper was intending to vote for Mister Void, given my past experience with players who enjoy attempting to beguile their fellow players (and even, in fact, the host of the game) with voting shenanigans? I do not appreciate having to state my rationale ad nauseum. Do you believe I am psychic? Are you a psychic, Mister TK? Is that why you think you are able to determine whether or not I found it obvious that Mister Void's vote for No Lynch was not serious? I suggest you repair your crystal ball. ^^
-
Now, if there are any additional questions for me, I will happily answer them. However, the case against me is based on other people providing:
Strawmen
Misunderstanding of my reasons
Logical fallacies
Self-contradictory argumentation
False premises
and the presumption that I am unable to read Mister Void and his intentions, who is likely one of the most easily readable players present in this game.
As such, the wagon on me should be disbanded immediately, particularly given Mister Rebel's and Mister Paper's completely terrible and opportunistic votes on me. ^^
I also still do not believe Mister Muse is town, given his most recent post. I can explain why if such is necessary.
So when you said "did not actually vote" (with even a little explanation on how it was likely meant to be that way) but later on say "explanation for voting", you were just confused?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
She wants a ride on the pony, dude.
Mafia Stats
Kill shot: BB
Issue with my shooting? Please visit my helpdesk and help me learn to aim!
It also proves that Mister Paper was contradicting himself in his reasoning and retroactively making up reasons for voting Mister Void.
This is the most convincing bit about Paper, IMO (and is also illustrated in another quote below). I'm not convinced that he was pulling lynch/vote shenanigans but I believe that Blue is convinced. Regardless of that, I think the point about Paper contradicting himself with his vote reasoning is convincing. He voted for the No lynch because it doesn't help the game leave RVS - but neither do any of the other RVS votes - and then he used it to take the vote out of RVS. It seems like a made up reason for trying to start a wagon on an unorthodox move. If he had said something like "Void is reluctant to place a vote on another player, which shows self-consciousness" then I would have disagreed with him about Void's motives, but I probably would have thought that Paper was just misunderstanding Void.
Vote: PaperBlade
I couldn't put my finger on why I didn't like iRebel's post but, as pointed out, it was because he was insinuating that answering questions that would surely be asked proactively as opposed to reactively was somehow forcing an argument. He also said that he didn't understand the last part:
Mister Void voted for a No Lynch, which allegedly does not help the game leave RVS...which spurred Mister Paper to leave RVS...by voting for Mister Void. (And this is logic just makes no sense to me)
Which is the most convincing part to me.
As for Muse, I backed off of him because he seemed calm in his response and then didn't let it discourage him from almost immediately pushing Cythare to give more information (albeit on you). What did you see there that I didn't, Blue?
I'm going to wait to see more from Blue Electric because I think I know who she is and this isn't nearly enough content to get a strong read.
Why, I am quite obviously town. I am stunned you can not see it yet, Mister Cythare. Also, if you are aware of my identity, I would prefer you keep it to yourself for those who are unaware. ^^ Thank you.
Yeah, that's part of why I was vague about it in my previous quote. People use gimmicks for a reason, and I don't want to lead with "hey Blue Electric is actually <person>" and ruin your fun. It just feels disrespectful. If it becomes specifically relevant later in the game, I might bring it up, but early D1 isn't the time.
I'm going to wait to see more from Blue Electric because I think I know who she is and this isn't nearly enough content to get a strong read.
Cythare, surely if you have suspicion that BlueElectric is someone other than she appears, then you can read up on her other posts in order to get a stronger understanding of her meta, not a weaker one?
I am relatively certain that Mister Cythare would not be able to compare my play on my main account to my play on this account in the slightest. ^^
There's also the fact that I'm bad at reading your main account anyways. Regardless, I actually don't like to use meta as a driving force for analysis. I've said this in previous games before, and tend to get flack for it, but I enjoy drawing from the current game and referring to old games if I'm on the fence. After Meta Mafia, constant meta use just isn't fun, and if it makes me a worse player in order to have more fun playing, I'm okay with it. That said, I do need to step up my in-game analysis here, which will come in a separate post.
If her playstyle is anything like her main account, I think she's town. Otherwise, if she really does differ her play here, I still think she's town but I'm not as sure.
Second I like Blue as town. I understand her reasoning behind her actions with the paper and void thing. They are not great but I understand after paper's post why Blue would vote for him. And I get why Blue would vote for Void for the no lynch. But it's sort of a 1 plus a glob of green paint equal 2 sort of thing. Not great, but questionable logic doesn't equal scum and I am not really feeling a scum mindset from her.
Paper I am willing to give the benefit of the doubt on the whole vote misunderstanding and I don't want to see him lynched because of it. He does leave a bad taste in my mouth because of his play and responses, but I want to let that fester a bit just to sort out the noise from this vote issue.
Void I like as town. So far solid play and decent mindset.
After successfully delivering a crate of Hellfire and Brimstone to Hell 9B, Paperblade spoke up "Tidkht, woefht albdhe! Fheet jtd tuahde djghyy."
"He's a monster! He's trying to kill us! Get him!" Several crew members shouted as they sprang towards him.
"Hey, guys wait a minute. That's just a different syntax. They use it all the time on Curriculax and Fedex 8!" Paperblade looked around nervously.
"I need to go to the bathroom. Pull over at the next planet." FIGHTING was pacing.
"Super Planet 7-11 is just up ahead." Rezombied needed to grab something to eat.
After the team pulled over, iRebel noticed an old-timey postcard. "Hey guys look at this. It's got a picture of an old newspaper. Looks like a team called the Red Sox won the World Series 4 games to 1 back in 2013."
Shots rang out. Everyone hit the floor.
_____________
Vote Count:
Blue Electric (3): iRebel, Rezombied, Paperblade
Paperblade (2): Blue Electric, DCIII
Idle Muse (1): TK-421
Void (1): Asenion
Not Voting: Guardman, Idle Muse, Void, FIGHTING, Cythare
Vote count should be accurate through post #63. If I've made any errors let me know. Remember you must both Bold your votes and Unvote any previous votes.
@rezombied:
I was hoping to get some kind of over reaction to me not moving my vote. It should have been obvious what I was doing considering my RVS post.
@iRebel:
I don't see how that comes from a Scum mindset. I could see either alignment making that type of post. Blue did an excellent job of explaining what happened. It's only a mater of time until things start getting figured out.
@Blue:
I accept your reasoning that you provided. I've still got my eye on you until certain events happen, but, for now, you have my trust. My vote is not going on paperblade though. There is too much uncertainty surrounding yourself and paperblade for me to place my vote there.
I see votes are going onto paperblade, but I don't see that as the correct course of action until we learn more about Blue/the game.
So when you said "did not actually vote" (with even a little explanation on how it was likely meant to be that way) but later on say "explanation for voting", you were just confused?
As for Muse, I backed off of him because he seemed calm in his response and then didn't let it discourage him from almost immediately pushing Cythare to give more information (albeit on you). What did you see there that I didn't, Blue?
I will deconstruct his post after work, Mister DC.
I did say I had preferred not to be outed for the newer players that did not know who I am.
Regardless, I will continue to play like Miss Blue as opposed to Mister Iso.
Quote from Guardman »
Paper I am willing to give the benefit of the doubt on the whole vote misunderstanding and I don't want to see him lynched because of it. He does leave a bad taste in my mouth because of his play and responses, but I want to let that fester a bit just to sort out the noise from this vote issue.
What do you think of Misters Muse and Rebel?
I feel like you have not been fully reading my posts, as this post indicates a non-thorough readthrough of my own. Why is that, Mister Dog?
Because I didn't think it was a secret. I mean Blue revealed herself at the end of lolcats.
You have not been reading my posts very thoroughly, then, Mister Dog. -.- I understand that you are not a huge fan of walls of text arguments, but I ask that you bear with me as I feel what I have to say is relevant and important.
@iRebel:
I don't see how that comes from a Scum mindset. I could see either alignment making that type of post. Blue did an excellent job of explaining what happened. It's only a mater of time until things start getting figured out.
Mister Void, do you believe this is relevant to Mister Rebel's alignment? Why or why not?
Quote from Void »
@Blue:
I accept your reasoning that you provided. I've still got my eye on you until certain events happen, but, for now, you have my trust. My vote is not going on paperblade though. There is too much uncertainty surrounding yourself and paperblade for me to place my vote there.
I assume you’re voting me for the same reason that paperblade voted me for, correct?
No. I voted you for the sake of moving us out of the RVS - as I knew you were gunning for - and to see how Mister Paper reacted to it.
Quote from Void »
This post is debatable because of paperblade’s reasoning for the “lynch Void” comment. One thing I found odd is that I knew what paperblade was attempting to do; yet, Blue did not, but was willing to accept the reasoning in a later post, but didn’t for what I chalk down to as her gut. Something about that does not feel right to me.
I have seen too many people attempt to make vote gambits through misspelling "vote" or what have you recently to have let that one slide.
Quote from Void »
As for the jump that Blue made from myself to paperblade; this may be seen many ways. The two ways that are sticking out in my head are: It could be an opportunistic jump for bad play; it could be seen as a Scum buddy trying to bus.
...or I could be town who believes that Mister Paper is scum based on his contradictory reasoning for voting you.
You also voted for Void without offering an explanation prior to switching your vote to Paper. What was your thought process there?
My thought process was, "Vote for Mister Void and see what Mister Paper does, as well as how Mister Void reacts."
However, upon further consideration, I found more and more wrong with the manner in which Mister Paper approached the Mister Void wagon. ^^ As such, I did not wish to miss an opportunity to shift the momentum on to Mister Paper, though ultimately I would have much preferred to see what else would have fallen out of the tree in the process.
It’s probably because the word “opportunity” is in the sentence, but the bolded reads like Scum wording it towards a Town member.
You are incorrect, Mister Void. I recognize that following RVS, the person with the loudest argument is typically followed first. I did not wish to lose the sway of the post-RVS voting bloc that would inevitably develop at some point, so I opted to play striker and head off the momentum at the pass by corralling you all in the direction I desired the game to go. ^^ I am attempting to establish myself as a town leader early on due to the nature of my role.
Surely you do not find this out of line with anything I have done in the past, Mister Void.
@Blue - when you placed your vote on Void first, why would that trigger a reaction from Paper since he already had his vote on Void?
As stated, I did not necessarily believe Mister Paper's vote to be of a genuine nature. This is evidenced by my follow-up questions to Mister Paper as to his RVS "preferences".
Quote from DCIII »
Also, do you really think that Paper was intentionally faking a vote by using lynch vs. vote? His intent to vote for Void was clear. His reasoning for voting for Void's NL vote seems like enough of a place to start the line of questioning without reaching for more to add to the case.
I addressed Mister Void on this already. It was not necessarily true that Mister Paper was intending to place a solid vote on Mister Void, as I sensed sinister intentions from Mister Paper in regards to his quasi-vote on Mister Void.
Quote from DCIII »
This post seems very off to me.
@Idle - I see where you say you don't see any scum reasoning for the pseudo-vote, so then why say that you aren't convinced that he is used to the lynch syntax and press the issue by asking him where it's common? If there isn't a scum reason to do it, why does it matter? It looks like you're trying to throw suspicion on Paper without committing to thinking his behavior is scummy.
Also - you ask what "so grabbed" Blue's attention about PaperBlade compared to other players when it was very clearly the fact that he cast the first real vote of the game. This after basically barning her suspicion that he got tripped up with the syntax.
This post doesn't appear to come from any real place of curiosity but, rather, more be an attempt to cast suspicion on other players.
Vote: Idle Muse
I concur wholeheartedly, Mister DC. I believe Mister Muse was attempting to allow himself room to jump on the Mister Paper wagon but avoid it completely if necessary due to the phrasing he used - a textbook example of hedging one's bets. I was quietly musing (^_^) about whether or not this was an individual tell or associative tell but determined that I felt Mister Muse was likely to be mafia-aligned regardless of Mister Paper's alignment.
I believe you are town for this post - not just for agreeing with me, but for pursuing an entirely new route of scumhunting that was not readily available through the potential wagons on myself and Mister Paper thus far.
I would vote for Blue, but I can't pin down why that post doesn't feel right to me.
It is because as Miss Blue I tend to use needlessly obfuscating diction and complicated sentence structure choices instead of resorting to standard slang to maintain my pleasant persona, keep my mindset separated from what it typically is when I play Mafia - you will note that Miss Blue is a far more composed and organized player, which helps me tunnel less when I am wrong - and to allow me room to insert dripping sarcasm undetected when it is suited to the situation.
Firstly, Mister Paper did not actually vote for Mister Void. I am relatively certain Mister Paper did not do this accidentally, as he demonstrates a clear understanding of bits of Mafia Theory. This is suspect because it does not leave Mister Paper accountable for any wagon that may occur on Mister Void while simultaneously giving him an in to the wagon if it does, in fact, develop. Also, it allows Mister Paper to potentially trap people who attempted to "follow" him on to the wagon on Mister Void. ^^
Finally, Mister Paper's explanation for voting Void is feeble and contradictory. Mister Void voted for a No Lynch, which allegedly does not help the game leave RVS...which spurred Mister Paper to leave RVS...by voting for Mister Void.
I do believe this is the correct direction for the Day.
Yeah there's no way this post comes from a town mindset. You're scum.
Unvote; Vote: Blue Electric
Please, Mister Rebel, walk me through why a member of the town could never make this post. I await your explanation eagerly.
Quote from iRebel »
It's the mindset from which Blue's post comes from. I don't see any scenario where it comes from a town mindset.
I'm going to wait to see more from Blue Electric because I think I know who she is and this isn't nearly enough content to get a strong read.
Why, I am quite obviously town. I am stunned you can not see it yet, Mister Cythare. Also, if you are aware of my identity, I would prefer you keep it to yourself for those who are unaware. ^^ Thank you.
No fair! I want to vote Rhand like the mod did in the OP! Not fair! :armcross:
In lighter spirits: Vote: No Lynch
Unvote, Vote Void
3. Blue gets all over Paper for using lynch isntead of vote.
4. Paper justifies using lynch as a meta thing.
5. Blue justifies her focusing on Paper's vote of Void: (bolded emphasis is mine)
Why the focus on Paperblade at that point? What so grabbed your attention about them previous to your vote on Void, compared to other players?
It seemed completely out of place. There was no attempt to encourage discussion, no explanation beyond "because No Lynch", the mindset and emotions looked strange, and it felt like an opportunistic vote. Things like that are red flags to people who put stock into RVS analysis. ^^
What I see is Blue admitting to focusing on Paper for something that Blue also did.
Vote: BlueElectric
This is fallacious at best, Mister Zombie. ^^ You are stating that I did not encourage discussion - but I did, in fact, encourage discussion. I followed Mister Paper on to Mister Void and did not provide ANY reasoning - not even "because No Lynch" - I merely quoted the post in question - which I imagined would spur people to action. I have explained all of those above whilst addressing Mister Void. That aside, I never had any intention of lynching Mister Void - my purpose was to see if Mister Paper would slip because I did not like his vote on Mister Void and wanted to expose him as mafia to the rest of you. However, I realized that the momentum was about to shift, and as such, I placed my vote on him. Ergo, you are voting me for placing a vote on Mister Void that was attempted to bait out mafia and facilitate discussion - not to lynch Mister Void - because you misunderstand my intentions.
Basically, when I read blue's post, I see it as a forced attempt to make a logical point. He takes the point and asks a continuing set of questions that'll produce a desired conclusion -- why would town do that?
Gee, Mister Rebel, why on earth would I allow the town to follow my train of thought for how I determined Mister Paper was mafia-aligned? Perhaps because I wish for a wagon to develop on him? But a member of the town would never do that, right?
When I believe people hold beliefs that are illogical or fallacious outside of Mafia, I like to ask them a series of questions based on what their belief is to allow them to come to the same conclusion I have. I think of it as "mentally holding their hand" since I am leading them to draw the conclusions, themselves.
Additionally, arguments are constructed through "fact -> expounding analysis -> inference -> conclusion" format, or were you not aware that you had to show your work to get full credit (or, in this case, convince other people of your viewpoints)?
You are being uncharacteristically aggressive, Mister Rebel. Why is that?
@Blue: There's nothing about the case to really respond to. You seem to think I'm cheerleading a case with a fake vote so that I can hop on the wagon later, but... then what's the point of the fake vote? Heck, what's the point in waiting to vote? You could say it removes suspicion from me later except anyone who's rereading will say "Hey that Paperblade guy started this wagon but didn't have the balls to put a vote down!" Or, like, whenever the mod puts down votals and I'm still listed as not voting? Or anyone who's reading now. It just seems like an overly paranoid conspiracy theory to me.
Unvote, Vote BlueElectric
This is a complete and total strawman of the case I presented against you and a highly opportunistic OMGUS counter-vote. The crux of my argument, Mister Paper, was not that you were not committing to the wagon, and if you genuinely believe that, you need to take a moment to re-read my posts. You also have some questions I asked you that you need to answer.
Also - you say "It just seems like an overly paranoid conspiracy theory to me."
If I am paranoid, would that not indicate that I am town-aligned? Why would mafia have to be paranoid about players who attempt to start wagons without being held accountable for them? If anything, the logical play for a mafia-aligned Miss Blue would be for me to follow through with the wagon on Mister Void and use the momentum from that to push you after Mister Void [in this scenario] flips town.
Finally, I have seen mafia-aligned players perform similar actions to what I have accused you of - a prime example of this occurring was in Eeveelution Mafia, where Mister Seppel effectively counterclaimed Mister Tordeck, which caused Mister Tordeck's imminent demise - but nobody except for Mister Iso in that game attempted to hold Mister Seppel accountable for the slaughter of Mister Tordeck, and it ended up with the town losing as a result.
So yes, I am paranoid. Paranoid that such would be allowed to occur in this game.
I'm going to wait to see more from Blue Electric because I think I know who she is and this isn't nearly enough content to get a strong read.
Cythare, surely if you have suspicion that BlueElectric is someone other than she appears, then you can read up on her other posts in order to get a stronger understanding of her meta, not a weaker one?
I am relatively certain that Mister Cythare would not be able to compare my play on my main account to my play on this account in the slightest. ^^
While your explanation for the lack of vote seems valid, Mister Paper, I am still inclined to call bull. ^^ Firstly, referring to my theory as "pretty wild" is a handwave, and a poor attempt to discredit me at best. Secondly, why are you not fond of leaving RVS in that particular manner? What is your preferred manner, and how does it differ from the manner in which Mister Void left RVS? Finally, how does that indicate the color red in Mister Void's role PM?
Most of these questions are useless. I don't think we learn anything by knowing what Paper's "preferred method" for leaving RVS is. What do you think that does for us?
It shows Mister Paper's motives for voting Mister Void - I believe Mister Paper was attempting to swing at an easy mislynch in Mister Void based on the No Lynch vote. It also proves that Mister Paper was contradicting himself in his reasoning and retroactively making up reasons for voting Mister Void.
Quote from FIGHTING »
This is of course not to mention that your premise is faulty; i.e., paperblade actually did vote.
Again, there was no possible way for me to determine that at the time, Miss FIGHTING.
Quote from FIGHTING »
You also know exactly why voting a non-player in RVS is bad. Don't you remember when we used our Girl Power™ to bring somebody to L-2 off of a bad RVS vote? What's different here?
Are you referring to Mister Void's vote for a No Lynch? If so, the difference is that Mister Void is experienced enough to know that voting a non-player nets negative reactions. Mister Void's intent to leave RVS was plain to me, and that is another reason I do not believe Mister Paper to be town-aligned - because Mister Void's purpose was so obvious.
Quote from FIGHTING »
Void's post looks questionable, though given his experience I buy that he was reaction baiting with it. For Paperblade, who by the fact that he used the Lynch syntax indicates that he's unfamiliar with our playerbase, a vote there fits.
Again, it was obvious to me that Mister Void was baiting for a reaction. However, regarding your stance on Mister Paper, I disagree that a vote there fits. I think he may have THOUGHT it would fit there, but in doing so, inadvertently blundered.
Quote from FIGHTING »
tl;dr: you're shoveling crap and I want to know why.
Anyway, regarding Paperblade: While the syntax is odd, I don't believe that to be a way of voting while not voting (an FOS would have been much easier). However, the way paper does just jump on Void looks incredibly bad, and blue's barning and then trying to pass it off as reaction baiting looks worse. Here's what bothers me most:
Firstly, Mister Paper did not actually vote for Mister Void.
Finally, Mister Paper's explanation for voting Void
Paperblade doesn't actually explain the whole syntax thing until half an hour after that post. So Blue knew Paper was trying to vote, but twisting it to make it look bad. I still don't like Paper, but Blue's more visible right now.
Vote: BlueElectric
How on earth did you expect I should determine that Mister Paper was intending to vote for Mister Void, given my past experience with players who enjoy attempting to beguile their fellow players (and even, in fact, the host of the game) with voting shenanigans? I do not appreciate having to state my rationale ad nauseum. Do you believe I am psychic? Are you a psychic, Mister TK? Is that why you think you are able to determine whether or not I found it obvious that Mister Void's vote for No Lynch was not serious? I suggest you repair your crystal ball. ^^
-
Now, if there are any additional questions for me, I will happily answer them. However, the case against me is based on other people providing:
Strawmen
Misunderstanding of my reasons
Logical fallacies
Self-contradictory argumentation
False premises
and the presumption that I am unable to read Mister Void and his intentions, who is likely one of the most easily readable players present in this game.
As such, the wagon on me should be disbanded immediately, particularly given Mister Rebel's and Mister Paper's completely terrible and opportunistic votes on me. ^^
I also still do not believe Mister Muse is town, given his most recent post. I can explain why if such is necessary.[/QUOTE]
Miss Blue reacts quite well to a lot of early pressure and comes off as both genuine and natural -- no flailing about. Exactly what I'd expect from Miss Blue in light of a certain development. I better understand your POV having re-read this massive WOT a couple times over. I'm willing to give Miss Blue the benefit of the doubt.
As for the uncharacteristically aggressive bit, with only three complete games my style is still evolving and developing. I don't think I've played any two games the same. But I was aggressive in Marvel Madness :).
Unvote
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Quote from Guardman »
Paper I am willing to give the benefit of the doubt on the whole vote misunderstanding and I don't want to see him lynched because of it. He does leave a bad taste in my mouth because of his play and responses, but I want to let that fester a bit just to sort out the noise from this vote issue.
/barn.
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@Void: Fair enough. The way Miss Blue presented the post stuck out as odd to me. I agree that she's done a good job of explaining and we'll get some clarity soon enough as the Day progresses.
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@EtR (and everyone): Going to somewhat Limited Access until Monday. Should be able to at least post once, maybe twice each day, but not much outside that.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
EDH UUU Azami, Lady of Scrolls RRR Diaochan, Artful Beauty UR(U/R) Tibor, Lumia, & Melek (WIP)
I don't have any hard numbers on this, but I'm targeted more often than a black guy driving a beat-up sedan with a broken tail-light and no license plate, and Cy's well aware of that.
@EtR (and everyone): Going to somewhat Limited Access until Monday. Should be able to at least post once, maybe twice each day, but not much outside that.
@iRebel:
I don't see how that comes from a Scum mindset. I could see either alignment making that type of post. Blue did an excellent job of explaining what happened. It's only a mater of time until things start getting figured out.
Mister Void, do you believe this is relevant to Mister Rebel's alignment? Why or why not?
I believe this post could come from either Town or Scum. This is not the reason for my vote on iRebel. I will delve further into this at a later time. For now the time is not right.
@Blue:
I accept your reasoning that you provided. I've still got my eye on you until certain events happen, but, for now, you have my trust. My vote is not going on paperblade though. There is too much uncertainty surrounding yourself and paperblade for me to place my vote there.
What do you think of Mister Muse, Mister Void?
I don't have a read on Muse currently. Give me some time and I will.
@iRebel:
What are your reads on FIGHTING and rezombied? @TK-421:
What are your reads on Guardman, Muse, Asenion and Cythare?
I'm a bit behind, I'll catch up in a bit. First though, Unvote my RVS vote.
I'll always lynch Iso Day 1 when I'm Town, so that imagine with me. Not ready to do it quite yet though, the day is young. At the moment I would like to Vote DCIII
For reasons I'll explain later.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
An accurate description of myself:
Quote from Megiddo »
You're the dude who just lies a lot and makes people hate you and then magically becomes town later, right?
I'm a bit behind, I'll catch up in a bit. First though, Unvote my RVS vote.
I'll always lynch Iso Day 1 when I'm Town, so that imagine with me. Not ready to do it quite yet though, the day is young. At the moment I would like to Vote DCIII
For reasons I'll explain later.
Alright, I'll be here to refute you when you do... unless your reasoning is, "this is the only vote that should be cast on DCIII for the entire rest of the game," in which case, I'll back you up.
iRebel's most recent post reads, to me, like he's trying to back out of a hole that he stepped in.
Second I like Blue as town. I understand her reasoning behind her actions with the paper and void thing. They are not great but I understand after paper's post why Blue would vote for him. And I get why Blue would vote for Void for the no lynch. But it's sort of a 1 plus a glob of green paint equal 2 sort of thing. Not great, but questionable logic doesn't equal scum and I am not really feeling a scum mindset from her.
If this is true (which I see it is from BlueElectric's post), and you think Blue is town (I'm gonna go read Kitty Trek mafia or whatever it was called now), then you've just given us a huge disadvantage! Outing that BlueElectric is a powerful experienced player to the mafia is decidedly anti-town, if you indeed believe her to be town as you state. Revealing such information about player who you believe to be town does nothing to help the town, and gives the mafia useful information! I just don't see a town member revealing this information.
On the other hand, if you're scum, then revealing that a town player has something to hide is definitely in your interest! I can totally see a scum outing a town player's alt like this, to put focus on them, to force us to re-scrutinise their playstyle, and ultimately, to prevent them from being seen as trustworthy due to a greater perception of that players strength.
In this case, you're informing us that BlueElectric is an experienced player and by that, that we need to pay closer attention to her posts, which, if she is town and is attacking other town, is great deflection from the scum whether we choose to trust or distrust her.
Based on this, I feel that BlueElectric is likely town, and Guardman is scum.
Vote Guardman
I like this post by Idle; and it's where I was going with my line of questioning. Not only did Blue mention that she didn't want her identity to be outed but, if Guardman thinks that Blue is town, why would he let others know that she's a more veteran player? It feels like a warning, rather than an offhanded comment.
Plus, his response was that it was common knowledge - but if the game he referenced was Kitty Trek - that was almost two years ago.
I feel better about Idle after pointing this out, as well.
I like this post by Idle; and it's where I was going with my line of questioning. Not only did Blue mention that she didn't want her identity to be outed but, if Guardman thinks that Blue is town, why would he let others know that she's a more veteran player? It feels like a warning, rather than an offhanded comment.
Plus, his response was that it was common knowledge - but if the game he referenced was Kitty Trek - that was almost two years ago.
I feel better about Idle after pointing this out, as well.
Are you sure you are town, Mister DC? This is a very weak argument. Additionally, my identity was recently re-ousted in The Family thread by Mister Void, but not everybody reads our clan thread, so I was hoping to avoid that knowledge spreading to avert any arguments to the effect of, "Miss Blue, you are playing this game completely unlike your other Mafia persona, therefore, I believe you are mafia-aligned." As I have stated many times before, Mister Iso (as he plays Mafia, at least) is not at all how I am out-of-game; BlueElectric was an attempt to subvert the negative stigma attached to the Iso playstyle, as well as approach the game in a far more pleasant and logical manner than the primarily gut-based, grating drives of Mister Iso to prove this.
As such, I did not want people to necessarily base my play on my other identity - hence the point of a gimmick - but I enjoyed the persona of Miss Blue too much not to bring her back for a few rounds of Mafia. ^^
Miss Blue reacts quite well to a lot of early pressure and comes off as both genuine and natural -- no flailing about. Exactly what I'd expect from Miss Blue in light of a certain development. I better understand your POV having re-read this massive WOT a couple times over. I'm willing to give Miss Blue the benefit of the doubt.
So, my post no longer comes from a scum mindset?
Quote from iRebel »
As for the uncharacteristically aggressive bit, with only three complete games my style is still evolving and developing. I don't think I've played any two games the same. But I was aggressive in Marvel Madness :).
At what point did you decide you would be playing this game in a different manner, Mister Rebel?
@iRebel:
I don't see how that comes from a Scum mindset. I could see either alignment making that type of post. Blue did an excellent job of explaining what happened. It's only a mater of time until things start getting figured out.
Mister Void, do you believe this is relevant to Mister Rebel's alignment? Why or why not?
I believe this post could come from either Town or Scum. This is not the reason for my vote on iRebel. I will delve further into this at a later time. For now the time is not right.
@Blue:
I accept your reasoning that you provided. I've still got my eye on you until certain events happen, but, for now, you have my trust. My vote is not going on paperblade though. There is too much uncertainty surrounding yourself and paperblade for me to place my vote there.
What do you think of Mister Muse, Mister Void?
I don't have a read on Muse currently. Give me some time and I will.
I'm a bit behind, I'll catch up in a bit. First though, Unvote my RVS vote.
I'll always lynch Iso Day 1 when I'm Town, so that imagine with me. Not ready to do it quite yet though, the day is young. At the moment I would like to Vote DCIII
For reasons I'll explain later.
Second I like Blue as town. I understand her reasoning behind her actions with the paper and void thing. They are not great but I understand after paper's post why Blue would vote for him. And I get why Blue would vote for Void for the no lynch. But it's sort of a 1 plus a glob of green paint equal 2 sort of thing. Not great, but questionable logic doesn't equal scum and I am not really feeling a scum mindset from her.
If this is true (which I see it is from BlueElectric's post), and you think Blue is town (I'm gonna go read Kitty Trek mafia or whatever it was called now), then you've just given us a huge disadvantage! Outing that BlueElectric is a powerful experienced player to the mafia is decidedly anti-town, if you indeed believe her to be town as you state. Revealing such information about player who you believe to be town does nothing to help the town, and gives the mafia useful information! I just don't see a town member revealing this information.
On the other hand, if you're scum, then revealing that a town player has something to hide is definitely in your interest! I can totally see a scum outing a town player's alt like this, to put focus on them, to force us to re-scrutinise their playstyle, and ultimately, to prevent them from being seen as trustworthy due to a greater perception of that players strength.
In this case, you're informing us that BlueElectric is an experienced player and by that, that we need to pay closer attention to her posts, which, if she is town and is attacking other town, is great deflection from the scum whether we choose to trust or distrust her.
Based on this, I feel that BlueElectric is likely town, and Guardman is scum.
Vote Guardman
I also dislike this post by you. The conclusion I drew from Mister Dog's post was that he had not thoroughly read my posts, not that he was intending to oust me as another player for the sake of the mafia. As it is, there are plenty of prime lynch candidates on the playing field - Mister Dog was in no danger of diverting any attention onto himself, so he had no pro-mafia motivation to oust me publicly as Mister Iso - so I do not see why he would not either:
A. State such in pre-game mafia chat (as the mafia typically has this)
or
B. Wait until Night 1 to post it in the mafia chat since there was no pressure on him up to that point.
How on earth do you arrive at that conclusion, given the above?
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I will break down Mister Muse's other post and identify what I did not care for in it in the following post.
I'm used to using lynch user or ##vote user for the syntax. That theory is pretty wild. And yes, I acknowledged when first questioned that technically that lets us leave RVS, but it's not in a way I'm fond of.
vote Void
I'm not convinced by this, too... how to vote is clearly laid out in the rules, and there was a whole bunch of RVS voting that demonstrates it, you'd really have to be not reading the thread OR the rules to miss that.
Where is it common to use that syntax, Paperblade?
That said, I can't see any scum reason to psuedo-vote Void like that...
Mister Muse states here that he does not believe Mister Paper's explanation, citing the rules of the game (though most experienced players do not even read the general rules section of the OP when they play, as it is all a repeat of what they have seen before), but then goes on to say that he can not discern a reason for Mister Paper faking a vote.
So, Mister Muse has hedged his stance here. He has given himself the room to either avoid Mister Paper's wagon or join it if it gains momentum. Additionally, I did state a possible motivation as mafia to fake a vote.
I like this post by Idle; and it's where I was going with my line of questioning. Not only did Blue mention that she didn't want her identity to be outed but, if Guardman thinks that Blue is town, why would he let others know that she's a more veteran player? It feels like a warning, rather than an offhanded comment.
Plus, his response was that it was common knowledge - but if the game he referenced was Kitty Trek - that was almost two years ago.
I feel better about Idle after pointing this out, as well.
Are you sure you are town, Mister DC? This is a very weak argument. Additionally, my identity was recently re-ousted in The Family thread by Mister Void, but not everybody reads our clan thread, so I was hoping to avoid that knowledge spreading to avert any arguments to the effect of, "Miss Blue, you are playing this game completely unlike your other Mafia persona, therefore, I believe you are mafia-aligned." As I have stated many times before, Mister Iso (as he plays Mafia, at least) is not at all how I am out-of-game; BlueElectric was an attempt to subvert the negative stigma attached to the Iso playstyle, as well as approach the game in a far more pleasant and logical manner than the primarily gut-based, grating drives of Mister Iso to prove this.
As such, I did not want people to necessarily base my play on my other identity - hence the point of a gimmick - but I enjoyed the persona of Miss Blue too much not to bring her back for a few rounds of Mafia. ^^
You say there's no benefit to share the information because there was no pressure on him - but if one or more of his teammates is/are receiving pressure and he wanted to clue them in, there would be a benefit there that he wouldn't want to wait until the end of D1 for.
iRebel pretty quickly backed off of his case that he was very certain of earier once he found out who you were and even mentioned as much in his reasoning.
I didn't think about the scum pregame chat as a possibility to communicate that, though.
Even so - if your conclusion that he hadn't thoroughly read your posts carefully is true, as opposed to intentionally outing you as a heads up, then how is he drawing this conclusion?
Second I like Blue as town. I understand her reasoning behind her actions with the paper and void thing. They are not great but I understand after paper's post why Blue would vote for him. And I get why Blue would vote for Void for the no lynch. But it's sort of a 1 plus a glob of green paint equal 2 sort of thing. Not great, but questionable logic doesn't equal scum and I am not really feeling a scum mindset from her.
He's saying both that he understands your reasoning for your actions and that the logic is questionable. So, in order to form that opinion, wouldn't he have had to have read through and given thought to your argument? Why would he say that he both likes you as town while also saying that your logic doesn't add up if he wasn't fully aware of the content in your posts?
Something doesn't add up, IMO. Either he read your posts closely and still chose to call out who you were, or he didn't read your posts closely but still came to the conclusion that you were using questionable logic in your decision making.
There's something about that quote that actually feels like it's offering an out to those who jumped on you, because it's reducing your actions and arguments to using questionable logic without going into detail as to why the logic is questionable. Implying to everyone else that the votes for you are understandable but, at the same time, kind of coaching them to come off of you now. It feels like a post designed to damage control some early game mistakes by how quickly your wagon formed.
You say there's no benefit to share the information because there was no pressure on him - but if one or more of his teammates is/are receiving pressure and he wanted to clue them in, there would be a benefit there that he wouldn't want to wait until the end of D1 for.
iRebel pretty quickly backed off of his case that he was very certain of earier once he found out who you were and even mentioned as much in his reasoning.
Mister Rebel did cite that as a reason, yes, but again, why would Mister Dog not share the information pre-game if he felt it was pertinent? Also, do you think a case can be drawn to associate Mister Dog and Mister Rebel as both being on the mafia team together at this point in time?
I can see your logic in the timing argument and that makes me slightly wary of Mister Dog; however, I already have 3 largely viable targets that I suspect of being mafia-aligned, and as such, I will place him on the backburner for the time being.
I believe Mister Rebel is suspect for backing off as soon as he discovered my experience, however, as it suggests to me that he was searching for an easy target, which he believed he found in me.
Quote from DCIII »
Even so - if your conclusion that he hadn't thoroughly read your posts carefully is true, as opposed to intentionally outing you as a heads up, then how is he drawing this conclusion?
Which conclusion, exactly? I see that has been answered below.
Second I like Blue as town. I understand her reasoning behind her actions with the paper and void thing. They are not great but I understand after paper's post why Blue would vote for him. And I get why Blue would vote for Void for the no lynch. But it's sort of a 1 plus a glob of green paint equal 2 sort of thing. Not great, but questionable logic doesn't equal scum and I am not really feeling a scum mindset from her.
He's saying both that he understands your reasoning for your actions and that the logic is questionable. So, in order to form that opinion, wouldn't he have had to have read through and given thought to your argument? Why would he say that he both likes you as town while also saying that your logic doesn't add up if he wasn't fully aware of the content in your posts?
Something doesn't add up, IMO. Either he read your posts closely and still chose to call out who you were, or he didn't read your posts closely but still came to the conclusion that you were using questionable logic in your decision making.
There's something about that quote that actually feels like it's offering an out to those who jumped on you, because it's reducing your actions and arguments to using questionable logic without going into detail as to why the logic is questionable. Implying to everyone else that the votes for you are understandable but, at the same time, kind of coaching them to come off of you now. It feels like a post designed to damage control some early game mistakes by how quickly your wagon formed.
Again, I can see why you would think that. I just do not necessarily agree with it at this point. Mister Dog is on my radar but he is not an option I wish to pursue at this juncture.
Quote tags are messed up in the multiquote I'm trying to do, so I'm just going to do this the old fashioned way:
@TK: You think that both Paper and Blue are scum? In other words, Blue is bussing Paper literally out of RVS over a non-issue? Please reconcile this for me.
@Blue: I have never eaten my words. Your entire premise is still faulty (though in a different way). I agree that paper's vote on void looks bad, but only if paper knows void. As with when you say it's not possible for you to determine that paperblade had voted*, it's similarly not possible for paperblade to determine whether void is reaction baiting or just throwing down a scummy vote. You and I knew what void was doing based on the fact that we know that he is experienced. Somebody who is so unfamiliar with our meta as to use Lynch: Playername instead of Vote: Playername? I doubt they'd have any idea. There was no indication that Paper had done any research into void or anything like that.
Can you tell my why paper's vote is bad in the universe where he has no idea that void is an experienced player? You say yourself that he may have thought a vote would fit there. I posit to you that he thought a vote would fit there because he doesn't know void.
Let me go about this another way. A complete newbie joins a game. It's not a gimmick, just a new player. Their RVS post is the same as void's: No lynch. Another player jumps in with a vote. Do you see this situation as the same or different, and if different, how so?
*this is the original faulty premise I asserted you were operating under. You are saying that when you see a player post "Lynch: Playername" you think to the various "voet" shenanigans that occurred in recent memory. When I see a player post "Lynch: Playername" and I think of the games some time back where players posted that, immediately came under heavy suspicion, explained it as being from a different site where they use different syntax, and it was written off as null. While I recognize the "lynch = voet" point of view I find it hard to believe that you didn't consider the other times this exact same thing happened.
@Blue: I have never eaten my words. Your entire premise is still faulty (though in a different way). I agree that paper's vote on void looks bad, but only if paper knows void. As with when you say it's not possible for you to determine that paperblade had voted*, it's similarly not possible for paperblade to determine whether void is reaction baiting or just throwing down a scummy vote. You and I knew what void was doing based on the fact that we know that he is experienced. Somebody who is so unfamiliar with our meta as to use Lynch: Playername instead of Vote: Playername? I doubt they'd have any idea. There was no indication that Paper had done any research into void or anything like that.
Can you tell my why paper's vote is bad in the universe where he has no idea that void is an experienced player? You say yourself that he may have thought a vote would fit there. I posit to you that he thought a vote would fit there because he doesn't know void.
Let me go about this another way. A complete newbie joins a game. It's not a gimmick, just a new player. Their RVS post is the same as void's: No lynch. Another player jumps in with a vote. Do you see this situation as the same or different, and if different, how so?
*this is the original faulty premise I asserted you were operating under. You are saying that when you see a player post "Lynch: Playername" you think to the various "voet" shenanigans that occurred in recent memory. When I see a player post "Lynch: Playername" and I think of the games some time back where players posted that, immediately came under heavy suspicion, explained it as being from a different site where they use different syntax, and it was written off as null. While I recognize the "lynch = voet" point of view I find it hard to believe that you didn't consider the other times this exact same thing happened.
I did not know that Mister Paper was not familiar with Mister Void - at the time I was unable to discern whether or not he was a gimmick. So yes, I would view it as different - but I was basing the initial "lynch vs. vote" argument on the premise that Mister Paper came from our meta.
@iRebel: Break down Blue's response for me. What specifically do you find genuine and natural? To me it looks like you did just back off because you found out that Blue is a real femme fatale and not just some dainty debutante.
@Blue: I have never eaten my words. Your entire premise is still faulty (though in a different way). I agree that paper's vote on void looks bad, but only if paper knows void. As with when you say it's not possible for you to determine that paperblade had voted*, it's similarly not possible for paperblade to determine whether void is reaction baiting or just throwing down a scummy vote. You and I knew what void was doing based on the fact that we know that he is experienced. Somebody who is so unfamiliar with our meta as to use Lynch: Playername instead of Vote: Playername? I doubt they'd have any idea. There was no indication that Paper had done any research into void or anything like that.
Can you tell my why paper's vote is bad in the universe where he has no idea that void is an experienced player? You say yourself that he may have thought a vote would fit there. I posit to you that he thought a vote would fit there because he doesn't know void.
Let me go about this another way. A complete newbie joins a game. It's not a gimmick, just a new player. Their RVS post is the same as void's: No lynch. Another player jumps in with a vote. Do you see this situation as the same or different, and if different, how so?
*this is the original faulty premise I asserted you were operating under. You are saying that when you see a player post "Lynch: Playername" you think to the various "voet" shenanigans that occurred in recent memory. When I see a player post "Lynch: Playername" and I think of the games some time back where players posted that, immediately came under heavy suspicion, explained it as being from a different site where they use different syntax, and it was written off as null. While I recognize the "lynch = voet" point of view I find it hard to believe that you didn't consider the other times this exact same thing happened.
I did not know that Mister Paper was not familiar with Mister Void - at the time I was unable to discern whether or not he was a gimmick. So yes, I would view it as different - but I was basing the initial "lynch vs. vote" argument on the premise that Mister Paper came from our meta.
@TK-421:
What are your reads on Guardman, Muse, Asenion and Cythare?
Muse reads to me as town, with his analysis of Guardman's post. Whether or not it's correct is irrelevant. He's putting thought into it, which is the important part.
Asenion, do you have a read on him after 2 posts with nothing in them? I'm inherently suspicious of those with low post counts, and he only has 2% of this thread. However, I don't believe in lynching lurkers until we've mislynched town the first few days.
Guardman's only contribution to the thread so far is outing Blue. This is one of the times that I'll actually listen to another player and base my opinion off of theirs. Since Blue sees that contribution as null, and unless Blue and Guardman are both mafia and covering each other in some convoluted conspiracy, I'll stick with Blue's thought. Crappy thing to do, but hard to read one way or the other.
Cythare, right now, reads more of an active lurker. Note there is a difference to me about lurkers and active lurkers. While lurkers are suspicious, active lurkers are doubly so. The newest post is all about Blue's alter-ego, but it adds little. For these last three, I think we're just not far enough into the game to get a proper read on yet.
@TK: You think that both Paper and Blue are scum? In other words, Blue is bussing Paper literally out of RVS over a non-issue? Please reconcile this for me.
I did. Now, with the outing of Blue (apparently, my belief in not gimmick checking those I play with messed with me), there's no way a bus is happening. The wanting reactions from paper, the million and a half votes in a half hour, they all make sense. Unvote
What's odd to me is the obsession with syntax. No person can separate their personas so completely (without a mental disorder) that they'd focus more on one thing than another. Blue make herself hard to read, but lucky for her, her mindset is just a hop, skip and a jump from mine (when I'm not being completely eccentric and off-the-wall) and I can adapt what I expect to see easily.
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She wants a ride on the pony, dude.
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@Blue: I have never eaten my words. Your entire premise is still faulty (though in a different way). I agree that paper's vote on void looks bad, but only if paper knows void. As with when you say it's not possible for you to determine that paperblade had voted*, it's similarly not possible for paperblade to determine whether void is reaction baiting or just throwing down a scummy vote. You and I knew what void was doing based on the fact that we know that he is experienced. Somebody who is so unfamiliar with our meta as to use Lynch: Playername instead of Vote: Playername? I doubt they'd have any idea. There was no indication that Paper had done any research into void or anything like that.
Can you tell my why paper's vote is bad in the universe where he has no idea that void is an experienced player? You say yourself that he may have thought a vote would fit there. I posit to you that he thought a vote would fit there because he doesn't know void.
Let me go about this another way. A complete newbie joins a game. It's not a gimmick, just a new player. Their RVS post is the same as void's: No lynch. Another player jumps in with a vote. Do you see this situation as the same or different, and if different, how so?
*this is the original faulty premise I asserted you were operating under. You are saying that when you see a player post "Lynch: Playername" you think to the various "voet" shenanigans that occurred in recent memory. When I see a player post "Lynch: Playername" and I think of the games some time back where players posted that, immediately came under heavy suspicion, explained it as being from a different site where they use different syntax, and it was written off as null. While I recognize the "lynch = voet" point of view I find it hard to believe that you didn't consider the other times this exact same thing happened.
I did not know that Mister Paper was not familiar with Mister Void - at the time I was unable to discern whether or not he was a gimmick. So yes, I would view it as different - but I was basing the initial "lynch vs. vote" argument on the premise that Mister Paper came from our meta.
You still feel that Paper is scum?
Yes, that is why my vote is still on Mister Paper.
No person can separate their personas so completely (without a mental disorder) that they'd focus more on one thing than another.
I am certain, Mister TK, that there are some people that play Mafia in our delightful little subforum who would find this assessment not far off from the truth.
To hell with your giant walls Blue, making it hard to quote.
Thanks for your explanation.
Unvote
---
@Cythare
Why did you say:
"I actually don't like to use meta as a driving force for analysis."
followed by:
"If her playstyle is anything like her main account, I think she's town"?
and where is the separate 'stepped-up' analysis post?
--- @iRebel
"no flailing about. Exactly what I'd expect from Miss Blue in light of a certain development."
So because Miss Blue is someone else, things that were scumtells before are now null? How many games have you played with her alter ego to come to this conclusion?
--- @BlueElectric
What do you think about this quote from paper:
"I don't think the NL is bad enough to call for a serious vote outside of RVS"
--- @Void
What exactly do you find scummy about iRebel's most recent post.
Void: I have Rez as lean town and FIGHTING as probable town. Rez's #43 sounded townie to me, and his interactions with you re: reaction baiting were good. Need to see more from Rez, particularly his response to Miss Blue.
EWP: Was hoping for more from Rez's reply to Miss Blue.
FIGHTING has been asking good questions and scum hunting all around. She's my third highest town read at the moment.
=====
DC: I didn't step into a hole, I was reaction baiting and trying to feel out Blue, specifically, and seeing who else would bite at the fact I intentionally sounded unsure ("maybe it'll make more sense"). Miss Blue's reaction to pressure was decent independently of the fact that she is <redacted>. The fact that she is <redacted>, however, made it slightly better because it's what I'd of expected from <redacted>.
=====
I do not like Idle's post (#72). Guardman outing Miss Blue doesn't put us at a disadvantage in the slightest. If anything I'd argue that known gimmicks are more of a disadvantage than knowing their real identity. The unknown piques everyone's curiosity in different fashions, from intrigue to suspicion to fear and a slew of other emotions, and how people handle those emotions is as varied as the emotions themselves. IMO, an unknown entity that displays game knowledge and that they're capable of handling themselves poses a bigger risk to scum than a known, veteran player would.
Not a fan of DC agreeing with Idle, either.
=====
Miss Blue:
1. Yes, that is correct in light of reading your wall of text.
2. I can't answer that without admitting to something I consider a bit embarrassing, but, here we go:
I don't actively choose to play any one way. How I play is tied to how confident I am feeling about my game at any one point. That confidence rises and falls based on both how clear I'm reading the game and how others are reading me. I associate being read as scum with bad play, especially as Town.
Take Marvel and Dr. Polyopticon, for examples.
In Marvel Madness I started off quite aggressive because I was positive I had nailed Generic as scum early on (and I was right in the end), but as the game progressed I backed off that read on Generic, found myself in a sea of white noise, and was neutral to scum at best in literally everyone's eyes. As a result I faded into the background that game and didn't contribute a lot.
In Dr. Polyopticon, I started off not really feeling that confident Day 1, but after getting my Night 1 investigative results I was able to start putting the puzzle together, so I felt my confident in my game and contributed more and was read well by, well, everyone.
It's something I need to work on and address, and the best way I know how is to just keep playing.
=====
More later. I need to begin getting ready for the game tonight.
Go Sox!
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I don't have any hard numbers on this, but I'm targeted more often than a black guy driving a beat-up sedan with a broken tail-light and no license plate, and Cy's well aware of that.
Also, do you think a case can be drawn to associate Mister Dog and Mister Rebel as both being on the mafia team together at this point in time?
Paper and iRebel are your chief suspects that were on your wagon earlier/or are still on your wagon. Guardman discussed your vote on Void and your logic when moving your vote to Paper. He also commented on Paper's play. He ignored entirely your suspicion of iRebel. iRebel then appeared to go into full back peddle mode.
Everyone on your wagon at that point in time who has since posted has dropped off of it; so I can't draw a direct connection between Guardman and iRebel other than iRebel's reasoning for both being on and for coming off of the wagon being worse than the others and still feeling like Guardman's post was wagon damage control.
I can see your logic in the timing argument and that makes me slightly wary of Mister Dog; however, I already have 3 largely viable targets that I suspect of being mafia-aligned, and as such, I will place him on the backburner for the time being.
I agree with your thoughts about Paper and iRebel - I still find Muse's response to my vote to be convincing. You analyzed his first post that drew my eye, but what did you find unconvincing about his response to my vote?
I believe Mister Rebel is suspect for backing off as soon as he discovered my experience, however, as it suggests to me that he was searching for an easy target, which he believed he found in me.
DC: I didn't step into a hole, I was reaction baiting and trying to feel out Blue, specifically, and seeing who else would bite at the fact I intentionally sounded unsure ("maybe it'll make more sense"). Miss Blue's reaction to pressure was decent independently of the fact that she is <redacted>. The fact that she is <redacted>, however, made it slightly better because it's what I'd of expected from <redacted>.
I don't buy this. You first placed your vote on her and said that there was no way that her post came from a town mindset. Left it at that until Void followed up. What was there to bait a reaction out of? You didn't ask her questions, you decreed her scum while a wagon started to build. I do think you were trying to push a wagon on a player you thought was an easy lynch target at the time.
Also, you didn't pressure Paper, you pressured Blue. Then, later, you barned Guardman's comment about Paper (in your post in #68) where he said that he didn't care about the syntax issue but that he didn't like his subsequent play or responses... but you never commented on his play at the time his interactions with Blue were going on, merely choosing to focus on Blue for the way she approached Paper. So your focus was on Blue for the way she approached Paper, but you didn't mention suspicion of him at all, address him, ask him any questions... you just barned Guardman after the fact.
You were convinced enough that Blue was scum to flatly claim her as such. When questioned, you said it was that she was providing answers to questions she was asking herself to force an attempt to make a logical point against Paper (which was a bad argument for reasons already discussed). So you thought that Blue's actions against Paper were scummy enough for a vote without initial explanation but now, later, you agree with Guardman about not liking Paper's play. That doesn't add up to me.
I do not like Idle's post (#72). Guardman outing Miss Blue doesn't put us at a disadvantage in the slightest. If anything I'd argue that known gimmicks are more of a disadvantage than knowing their real identity. The unknown piques everyone's curiosity in different fashions, from intrigue to suspicion to fear and a slew of other emotions, and how people handle those emotions is as varied as the emotions themselves. IMO, an unknown entity that displays game knowledge and that they're capable of handling themselves poses a bigger risk to scum than a known, veteran player would.
Not a fan of DC agreeing with Idle, either.
I also don't buy the first part of this - basically saying that the unknown causes a slew of emotions so it's best for everyone to know who the player is. That's pretty convoluted, to me.
Then you say that an unknown entity that displays game knowledge and that they're capable of handling themselves poses a bigger risk to scum than a known, veteran player would... (which I agree with)
So wouldn't Blue staying unknown have posed a greater risk to scum if she is town? So why wasn't it detrimental to town for her to be outed?
So this logic, which actually works against your point, is enough to think poorly of Idle and less of me (who you declared town in your previous post)?
I think that your reasoning and stances are convenient to what you need them to be this game.
I want to hear what Paper says when he returns but I'm going to put my vote on my strongest read.
Idle's post seems ill thought out to me. If scum Guard knew that Blue was Iso, why feel the need to shout this to the world when they could keep quiet and kill him? I don't see a scum motivation to go "Hey this guy is actually really good" when that just makes town more likely to listen to them?
The only thing that bothers me about Guard's outing bit was his response to TK, but it's just a gut reaction and I only trust that with people I know well.
I pretty much totally disagree with TK's 84, I don't think people that don't post much are inherently suspicious (although active lurkers are a different story)
Also FIGHTING raises a good point about TK in 79, and I'm not really satisfied with TK's response. Why does Blue's player identity matter?
Unvote, Vote TK
This post looks longer when I type it because the textbox is smaller. Now I feel inadequate.
@iRebel: Break down Blue's response for me. What specifically do you find genuine and natural? To me it looks like you did just back off because you found out that Blue is a real femme fatale and not just some dainty debutante.
Blue/iRebel are not scum together.
I addressed the "backing off" thing above.
Anyway, three things in particular:
Quote from MissBlue »
You are incorrect, Mister Void. I recognize that following RVS, the person with the loudest argument is typically followed first. I did not wish to lose the sway of the post-RVS voting bloc that would inevitably develop at some point, so I opted to play striker and head off the momentum at the pass by corralling you all in the direction I desired the game to go. ^^ I am attempting to establish myself as a town leader early on due to the nature of my role.
Surely you do not find this out of line with anything I have done in the past, Mister Void.
This struck me as natural town. It seems unnecessarily ballsy for scum to stick their neck out in this fashion. Those who start and push wagons early are, imo, more likely town.
Quote from MissBlue »
Gee, Mister Rebel, why on earth would I allow the town to follow my train of thought for how I determined Mister Paper was mafia-aligned? Perhaps because I wish for a wagon to develop on him? But a member of the town would never do that, right?
When I believe people hold beliefs that are illogical or fallacious outside of Mafia, I like to ask them a series of questions based on what their belief is to allow them to come to the same conclusion I have. I think of it as "mentally holding their hand" since I am leading them to draw the conclusions, themselves.
Additionally, arguments are constructed through "fact -> expounding analysis -> inference -> conclusion" format, or were you not aware that you had to show your work to get full credit (or, in this case, convince other people of your viewpoints)?
You are being uncharacteristically aggressive, Mister Rebel. Why is that?
I was looking for either an OMGUS post or a calm, cool, and collected post. This is the latter. If Miss Blue were scum, then I would've expected a reply attacking my (bad) logic instead of something calm, cool, and collected.
This is a complete and total strawman of the case I presented against you and a highly opportunistic OMGUS counter-vote. The crux of my argument, Mister Paper, was not that you were not committing to the wagon, and if you genuinely believe that, you need to take a moment to re-read my posts. You also have some questions I asked you that you need to answer.
Also - you say "It just seems like an overly paranoid conspiracy theory to me."
If I am paranoid, would that not indicate that I am town-aligned? Why would mafia have to be paranoid about players who attempt to start wagons without being held accountable for them? If anything, the logical play for a mafia-aligned Miss Blue would be for me to follow through with the wagon on Mister Void and use the momentum from that to push you after Mister Void [in this scenario] flips town.
Finally, I have seen mafia-aligned players perform similar actions to what I have accused you of - a prime example of this occurring was in Eeveelution Mafia, where Mister Seppel effectively counterclaimed Mister Tordeck, which caused Mister Tordeck's imminent demise - but nobody except for Mister Iso in that game attempted to hold Mister Seppel accountable for the slaughter of Mister Tordeck, and it ended up with the town losing as a result.
So yes, I am paranoid. Paranoid that such would be allowed to occur in this game.
Straight up logical. I like logical. And I like the reference to Eeveelution as a support.
===
Quote from DC »
I don't buy this.
*snaps fingers*
Quote from DC »
You first placed your vote on her and said that there was no way that her post came from a town mindset. Left it at that until Void followed up. What was there to bait a reaction out of? You didn't ask her questions, you decreed her scum while a wagon started to build. I do think you were trying to push a wagon on a player you thought was an easy lynch target at the time.
The reaction baiting was exactly that: aggressive tone, vote, and declaration. I had a positive experience the last time I was aggressive early by nailing scum!Generic in Marvel Madness within 50 posts. I was trying it again.
You are correct, I did leave it for others to follow up. Because I wanted to see who did and how they handled it.
Contrary to what it may seem like, I do have an inkling of an idea as to how to play this game. I might not be that good at it yet, but I do understand how one plays.
Quote from DC »
Also, you didn't pressure Paper, you pressured Blue. Then, later, you barned Guardman's comment about Paper (in your post in #68) where he said that he didn't care about the syntax issue but that he didn't like his subsequent play or responses... but you never commented on his play at the time his interactions with Blue were going on, merely choosing to focus on Blue for the way she approached Paper. So your focus was on Blue for the way she approached Paper, but you didn't mention suspicion of him at all, address him, ask him any questions... you just barned Guardman after the fact.
I have a tendency to overly barn and tunnel. I focused on Miss Blue because that's who I was interested in at the time.
You were convinced enough that Blue was scum to flatly claim her as such. When questioned, you said it was that she was providing answers to questions she was asking herself to force an attempt to make a logical point against Paper (which was a bad argument for reasons already discussed). So you thought that Blue's actions against Paper were scummy enough for a vote without initial explanation but now, later, you agree with Guardman about not liking Paper's play. That doesn't add up to me.
Couple things:
1. I did not like Miss Blue's post at the time. It struck me wrong. I went after it aggressively.
2. I know it was a bad argument. I put it out there because I was attempting to bait reactions.
3. In case I've not made it crystal clear yet, allow me to provide a tl;dr summary courtesy of the ****ing umpires who gave St. Louis a victory they didn't earn tonight:
I intentionally went after Miss Blue aggressively and promulgated* a knowingly bad argument for the purpose of soliciting reactions. Is it bad play? Maybe. That's a #postgame topic, and one I'm happy to have then.
* believe that is the right word.
Tell me DC, have you not stopped and asked yourself why no one but you, Void, and Miss Blue (obviously) have said anything about how I went so aggressively after her? Or the bad logic?
I don't know about you, but I find it most telling.
I also don't buy the first part of this - basically saying that the unknown causes a slew of emotions so it's best for everyone to know who the player is. That's pretty convoluted, to me.
Then you say that an unknown entity that displays game knowledge and that they're capable of handling themselves poses a bigger risk to scum than a known, veteran player would... (which I agree with)
So wouldn't Blue staying unknown have posed a greater risk to scum if she is town? So why wasn't it detrimental to town for her to be outed?
So this logic, which actually works against your point, is enough to think poorly of Idle and less of me (who you declared town in your previous post)?
I think that your reasoning and stances are convenient to what you need them to be this game.
I want to hear what Paper says when he returns but I'm going to put my vote on my strongest read.
It really isn't convoluted. The unknown does, in fact, cause the emotions I listed and then some.
My point is this, since it wasn't clear the first time: Miss Blue is far likelier to draw the NK (assuming she is town in this scenario) if her true ID is hidden because she's clearly a veteran player. Having her real ID outed, whether she likes it or not, is going to cause people to juxtapose Miss Blue v. <redacted>, which is in our benefit because <redacted>, as far as I can tell, doesn't draw the NK early too often, and having an asset like <redacted> is in our favour.
I may think less of you for agreeing with something I find terrible, but I never said I stopped town reading you. I haven't.
======
So anyway, today (Sunday) is my birthday so I'll not be around at all to post. I'll catch up Monday. Pray that the ****ing umps don't give St. Louis yet another game.
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I don't have any hard numbers on this, but I'm targeted more often than a black guy driving a beat-up sedan with a broken tail-light and no license plate, and Cy's well aware of that.
I pretty much totally disagree with TK's 84, I don't think people that don't post much are inherently suspicious (although active lurkers are a different story)
Also FIGHTING raises a good point about TK in 79, and I'm not really satisfied with TK's response. Why does Blue's player identity matter?
Point 1. You've also confused what I said. I didn't say that people that don't post much are inherently suspicious (look at my post count). What I was saying is that people who don't post CONTENT are suspicious.
Besides my RVS vote, my 6 posts have been on the various states of the game. Most of Cythare's 6 are RVS or "I think I know who Blue is".
it's just a gut reaction and I only trust that with people I know well.
I know Blue extremely well. It is, in fact, my job on this site to know Blue well (Secrets of modding revealed!). There's also the fact that it's a difference between a novice player and a veteran player. If Blue was one of our other veterans, I likely would have dropped off as well, since they are far more skilled at reaction baiting and so identity makes sense. Again, any persona adopted won't change ability, just style.
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She wants a ride on the pony, dude.
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Hey, all. Everyone in the world has decided to ask things of me at the last minute on my day off of work (today), so I will need a few days off of Mafia to catch up on my real life responsibilities. See you guys in a bit.
Hey, all. Everyone in the world has decided to ask things of me at the last minute on my day off of work (today), so I will need a few days off of Mafia to catch up on my real life responsibilities. See you guys in a bit.
@Mod: Please take note.
Noted and updated through Tuesday. If you need more let me know.
So... no one's had anything to say progressing the game in over a day?
As for me - Paper came back and didn't respond to the arguments against him at all, which is suspicious since he's been a significant part of the discussion since his previous post.
iRebel - a lot of things in that post aren't convincing to me. The last person I played with who said that they had a tendency to tunnel was mafia, tunneling (right, TK?). As an aside, I have a town lean on TK right now.
You say that you knowingly made a bad argument to solicit responses - what do you think is telling about the fact that only Blue, Void and I pressed your bad argument? What read were you hoping for? Both alignments would likely take an opportunity to point out a bad argument by a town player.
There's also a logical inconsistency with saying that you didn't like Blue's posts initially so you pressed them hard and that your argument against her at the same time was intentionally bad. If you didn't like her posts and thought she was scum enough to vote her, then why would you offer an intentionally bad argument against her when you did to bait reactions? Wouldn't you want to see how she responded to a good argument?
Just following the train of thought from point 1 to point 2:
1. I did not like Miss Blue's post at the time. It struck me wrong. I went after it aggressively.
2. I know it was a bad argument. I put it out there because I was attempting to bait reactions.
Blue's post struck you as wrong and you were suspicious enough to vote her so you intentionally made a bad argument on her?
I did say I had preferred not to be outed for the newer players that did not know who I am.
Regardless, I will continue to play like Miss Blue as opposed to Mister Iso.
Yeah, I didn't read that part sorry. I thought it was an open secret like Santa Claus. Plus I mean you did sign up as Miss Blue right after you outed in the sign-up thread so... but yeah I don't read walls of text too much.
Paper I am willing to give the benefit of the doubt on the whole vote misunderstanding and I don't want to see him lynched because of it. He does leave a bad taste in my mouth because of his play and responses, but I want to let that fester a bit just to sort out the noise from this vote issue.
What do you think of Misters Muse and Rebel?
I feel like you have not been fully reading my posts, as this post indicates a non-thorough readthrough of my own. Why is that, Mister Dog?
I get bored reading walls of text, so I mostly skim them. You know how I am.
As for Mister Rebel I feel sort of neutral on right now.
Mister Idle (along with Mister DC) I don't really like, especially since I find his and DC's attack on me weak, forced, and somewhat convoluted. But I could be biased.
Because I didn't think it was a secret. I mean Blue revealed herself at the end of lolcats.
You have not been reading my posts very thoroughly, then, Mister Dog. -.- I understand that you are not a huge fan of walls of text arguments, but I ask that you bear with me as I feel what I have to say is relevant and important.
But walls o' text beget walls o' text, which is a never ending cycle of long posts.
Even so - if your conclusion that he hadn't thoroughly read your posts carefully is true, as opposed to intentionally outing you as a heads up, then how is he drawing this conclusion?
Second I like Blue as town. I understand her reasoning behind her actions with the paper and void thing. They are not great but I understand after paper's post why Blue would vote for him. And I get why Blue would vote for Void for the no lynch. But it's sort of a 1 plus a glob of green paint equal 2 sort of thing. Not great, but questionable logic doesn't equal scum and I am not really feeling a scum mindset from her.
He's saying both that he understands your reasoning for your actions and that the logic is questionable. So, in order to form that opinion, wouldn't he have had to have read through and given thought to your argument? Why would he say that he both likes you as town while also saying that your logic doesn't add up if he wasn't fully aware of the content in your posts?
Something doesn't add up, IMO. Either he read your posts closely and still chose to call out who you were, or he didn't read your posts closely but still came to the conclusion that you were using questionable logic in your decision making.
Mister Idle (along with Mister DC) I don't really like, especially since I find his and DC's attack on me weak, forced, and somewhat convoluted. But I could be biased.
If you did skim over her posts, including where she asks not to be outed, how did you get enough of her content to conclude that you thought her logic was questionable?
Even so - if your conclusion that he hadn't thoroughly read your posts carefully is true, as opposed to intentionally outing you as a heads up, then how is he drawing this conclusion?
Second I like Blue as town. I understand her reasoning behind her actions with the paper and void thing. They are not great but I understand after paper's post why Blue would vote for him. And I get why Blue would vote for Void for the no lynch. But it's sort of a 1 plus a glob of green paint equal 2 sort of thing. Not great, but questionable logic doesn't equal scum and I am not really feeling a scum mindset from her.
He's saying both that he understands your reasoning for your actions and that the logic is questionable. So, in order to form that opinion, wouldn't he have had to have read through and given thought to your argument? Why would he say that he both likes you as town while also saying that your logic doesn't add up if he wasn't fully aware of the content in your posts?
Something doesn't add up, IMO. Either he read your posts closely and still chose to call out who you were, or he didn't read your posts closely but still came to the conclusion that you were using questionable logic in your decision making.
Mister Idle (along with Mister DC) I don't really like, especially since I find his and DC's attack on me weak, forced, and somewhat convoluted. But I could be biased.
If you did skim over her posts, including where she asks not to be outed, how did you get enough of her content to conclude that you thought her logic was questionable?
I skimmed over her walls o' text, not her regular posts. Her questionable logic was in a regular post.
You say that you knowingly made a bad argument to solicit responses - what do you think is telling about the fact that only Blue, Void and I pressed your bad argument? What read were you hoping for? Both alignments would likely take an opportunity to point out a bad argument by a town player.
I find it telling because only three people attempted to do any scum hunting re: my posts, which tells me scum is actively lurking/waiting to see if a serious wagon begins on me/someone. Knowing this will make vote analysis much more powerful going forward and helps establish a general pattern of behaviour to look for/expect.
Quote from DC »
There's also a logical inconsistency with saying that you didn't like Blue's posts initially so you pressed them hard and that your argument against her at the same time was intentionally bad. If you didn't like her posts and thought she was scum enough to vote her, then why would you offer an intentionally bad argument against her when you did to bait reactions? Wouldn't you want to see how she responded to a good argument?
I don't see it as a logical inconsistency at all. I feel there's a time and place for a variety of tactics, and you're right that approaching and handling Miss Blue's post as you are replying to me is the normal or traditional way of scum hunting and pressuring people. But as I have said, my goal was reaction baiting and imo, it has worked so far because we know scum is actively lurking/waiting for a serious wagon, and regardless of who gets lynched toDay we know vote analysis should be a very powerful weapon toDay/toMorrow.
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I don't have any hard numbers on this, but I'm targeted more often than a black guy driving a beat-up sedan with a broken tail-light and no license plate, and Cy's well aware of that.
@TK-421:
What are your reads on Guardman, Muse, Asenion and Cythare?
Muse reads to me as town, with his analysis of Guardman's post. Whether or not it's correct is irrelevant. He's putting thought into it, which is the important part.
Asenion, do you have a read on him after 2 posts with nothing in them? I'm inherently suspicious of those with low post counts, and he only has 2% of this thread. However, I don't believe in lynching lurkers until we've mislynched town the first few days.
Guardman's only contribution to the thread so far is outing Blue. This is one of the times that I'll actually listen to another player and base my opinion off of theirs. Since Blue sees that contribution as null, and unless Blue and Guardman are both mafia and covering each other in some convoluted conspiracy, I'll stick with Blue's thought. Crappy thing to do, but hard to read one way or the other.
Cythare, right now, reads more of an active lurker. Note there is a difference to me about lurkers and active lurkers. While lurkers are suspicious, active lurkers are doubly so. The newest post is all about Blue's alter-ego, but it adds little. For these last three, I think we're just not far enough into the game to get a proper read on yet.
Thank you for this, TK!
@Idle:
How many completed games of Mafia do you have?
Void: I have Rez as lean town and FIGHTING as probable town. Rez's #43 sounded townie to me, and his interactions with you re: reaction baiting were good. Need to see more from Rez, particularly his response to Miss Blue.
---
@cythare: blueelectric starts their games with jumping down peoples throats for what boils down to semantics often enough for it to be a null-tell to you?
---
My problem with blue is:
1. Paper voted (basically) Void because of Void's nolynch vote.
2. Blue voted Void for exactly the same reason:
No fair! I want to vote Rhand like the mod did in the OP! Not fair! :armcross:
In lighter spirits: Vote: No Lynch
Unvote, Vote Void
3. Blue gets all over Paper for using lynch isntead of vote.
4. Paper justifies using lynch as a meta thing.
5. Blue justifies her focusing on Paper's vote of Void: (bolded emphasis is mine)
Why the focus on Paperblade at that point? What so grabbed your attention about them previous to your vote on Void, compared to other players?
It seemed completely out of place. There was no attempt to encourage discussion, no explanation beyond "because No Lynch", the mindset and emotions looked strange, and it felt like an opportunistic vote. Things like that are red flags to people who put stock into RVS analysis. ^^
What I see is Blue admitting to focusing on Paper for something that Blue also did.
Vote: BlueElectric
Would you please explain what you find Townie about this post?
EWP: Was hoping for more from Rez's reply to Miss Blue.
Did this have any change on your read?
FIGHTING has been asking good questions and scum hunting all around. She's my third highest town read at the moment.
@Void
What exactly do you find scummy about iRebel's most recent post.
iRebel took the time to defend himself, but didn't do anything beyond that. If iRebel were Town, then I would expect more content in the form of Scum hunting.
The Town should be looking into iRebel more and putting votes here.
Why iRebel? I take it back. I don't much like #68. I don't like how iRebel quoted Blue Electric's entire wall of text only to comment on the whole post in generalities rather than on specific parts. It comes across like he's trying to add content with a large post, but no actual insight is provided.
Blue Electric is given the benefit of the doubt because of who Guardman reveals her to be, and because she "comes off as both genuine and natural" - but Blue Electric already indicated that her playstyle here is distinct from her main.
I also dislike this post by you. The conclusion I drew from Mister Dog's post was that he had not thoroughly read my posts, not that he was intending to oust me as another player for the sake of the mafia. As it is, there are plenty of prime lynch candidates on the playing field - Mister Dog was in no danger of diverting any attention onto himself, so he had no pro-mafia motivation to oust me publicly as Mister Iso - so I do not see why he would not either:
A. State such in pre-game mafia chat (as the mafia typically has this)
or
B. Wait until Night 1 to post it in the mafia chat since there was no pressure on him up to that point.
How on earth do you arrive at that conclusion, given the above?
Blue, the corollary to that is: what advantage is there as town!Guardman to outing you immediately? In retrospect, this has been :teamwork:. Your outing is null. That said, Guardman stated in his opening post that he had you as Town while also (clearly) not reading all of your posts. It instead was based solely on the paper v. Void thing. While I agree with his logic about you(Blue) looking town for it, ignoring your other content while calling you town based on one series of events is :thumbsdown:.
@Cythare
Why did you say:
"I actually don't like to use meta as a driving force for analysis."
followed by:
"If her playstyle is anything like her main account, I think she's town"?
and where is the separate 'stepped-up' analysis post?
a) I don't like meta as a driving force for analysis, but that doesn't mean that it can't help inform. I can understand the apparent dissonance there, but the second part was an answer to a specific question:
There is always going to be memory of players' playstyles from previous games to inform my perception of them - I'm not a robot or an amnesiac - but I'm not going to leaf through previous games just to get a read on someone.
b) Obviously, it is here (or at least starting here). I don't post as much on weekends.
DC: I didn't step into a hole, I was reaction baiting and trying to feel out Blue, specifically, and seeing who else would bite at the fact I intentionally sounded unsure ("maybe it'll make more sense"). Miss Blue's reaction to pressure was decent independently of the fact that she is <redacted>. The fact that she is <redacted>, however, made it slightly better because it's what I'd of expected from <redacted>.
This is really starting to feel forced. I agree with FIGHTING that Blue and iRebel are not scum together, and while that doesn't necessarily mean it can't be town/town, iRebel's reactions are continuing to look questionable to me.
I do not like Idle's post (#72). Guardman outing Miss Blue doesn't put us at a disadvantage in the slightest. If anything I'd argue that known gimmicks are more of a disadvantage than knowing their real identity. The unknown piques everyone's curiosity in different fashions, from intrigue to suspicion to fear and a slew of other emotions, and how people handle those emotions is as varied as the emotions themselves. IMO, an unknown entity that displays game knowledge and that they're capable of handling themselves poses a bigger risk to scum than a known, veteran player would.
Can you please explain this more? First, you say that "we're" not at a disadvantage in the slightest, and say that known gimmicks are more of a disadvantage. Then you say that an unknown entity poses a bigger risk to scum than a known veteran. Doesn't your logic here sound distinctly contradictory? I would like you to please reexplain, because your response to DCIII seems to skirt this question.
I hadn't really read much past RVS. I just re-read the thread. There is seriously almost no useful content. It's basically people arguing about Iso and getting to know each other. I mean, I'm glad to know everyone's experience levels and metas as the game goes on, but I think I'm over that now.
I wanna say that I will make a case on DC, but I'm playing mafia for fun and that sounds like work right now. He's my top scum candidate because of the way he has phrased things and the sides of arguments he has chosen. If I ever get unlazy I'll point out the examples. His last post was somewhat redeeming though.
I don't intend to lurk this game, I'll stay caught up now hopefully.
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An accurate description of myself:
Quote from Megiddo »
You're the dude who just lies a lot and makes people hate you and then magically becomes town later, right?
Void: I liked the question Rez pointed towards Cythare as I feel Miss Blue's post should have elicited more than a straight null. His subsequent outlining of how his "problem" with Miss Blue was the inconsistency he saw in play. It was one of the better responses to Miss Blue on the first page.
I had Rez at lean town, and but given the reply to Miss Blue, I'd move him to neutral leaning town.
Top two town reads are you and DC.
Quote from Void »
iRebel took the time to defend himself, but didn't do anything beyond that. If iRebel were Town, then I would expect more content in the form of Scum hunting.
As I said in #87:
More later. I need to begin getting ready for the game tonight.
Go Sox!
I am hosting people each night of the WS, so my time is limited, and I've been LA over the weekend. When I get computer time, it's not a lot and I have more than Mafia that commands my computer time. All I have time to do is defend myself — and that isn't going to change until after the World Series (when, exactly, will depend on who wins).
Quote from Cythare »
Can you please explain this more? First, you say that "we're" not at a disadvantage in the slightest, and say that known gimmicks are more of a disadvantage. Then you say that an unknown entity poses a bigger risk to scum than a known veteran. Doesn't your logic here sound distinctly contradictory? I would like you to please reexplain, because your response to DCIII seems to skirt this question.
I do not see the contradiction, but sure, I have no problem re-explaining my POV.
Miss Blue is clearly a veteran player. If people cannot juxtapose her play against something (that something being her main account), I believe that makes her far more likely to draw the NK because the unknown is going to elicit certain reactions and emotions. As an unknown, she poses a higher risk to scum because it throws off the ability to assess threats in an objective manner, imo.
Having her outed as <redacted>, however, will cause people to juxtapose her play against her main account regardless of whether or not it is a good or bad idea. Knowing that Miss Blue is <redacted> allows for more objective assessment. Given it is in the town's best interest for pro-town (this is assuming she is, in fact, town) veterans to survive, I believe outing Miss Blue as <redacted> makes it less likely she'll draw the NK, which benefits us.
I hope that makes more sense.
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Last post for today as I'm finishing up on getting ready for tonight. Go Sox!
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I don't have any hard numbers on this, but I'm targeted more often than a black guy driving a beat-up sedan with a broken tail-light and no license plate, and Cy's well aware of that.
I do not see the contradiction, but sure, I have no problem re-explaining my POV.
Miss Blue is clearly a veteran player. If people cannot juxtapose her play against something (that something being her main account), I believe that makes her far more likely to draw the NK because the unknown is going to elicit certain reactions and emotions. As an unknown, she poses a higher risk to scum because it throws off the ability to assess threats in an objective manner, imo.
Having her outed as <redacted>, however, will cause people to juxtapose her play against her main account regardless of whether or not it is a good or bad idea. Knowing that Miss Blue is <redacted> allows for more objective assessment. Given it is in the town's best interest for pro-town (this is assuming she is, in fact, town) veterans to survive, I believe outing Miss Blue as <redacted> makes it less likely she'll draw the NK, which benefits us.
I hope that makes more sense.
I think that my issue was that I was equating "unknown entity" with "player of unknown ability", not with "veteran but we don't know who". The vague language of your posts confused me, and looked to me like a potential slip, which is why I wanted you to reexplain.
It was clear that Blue is a more seasoned player, but not necessarily how seasoned, and given that Guardman and Asenion are also well-seasoned, I am unsure how likely it would have been that he get the NK over one of them.
No, stop that Cythare. If I keep getting Night Killed after the first phase I'm going to have to ditch this account and start over again. Just think of me as a noob. I'm worthless and not valuable and clearly lynch bait.
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An accurate description of myself:
Quote from Megiddo »
You're the dude who just lies a lot and makes people hate you and then magically becomes town later, right?
No. I voted you for the sake of moving us out of the RVS - as I knew you were gunning for - and to see how Mister Paper reacted to it.
I have seen too many people attempt to make vote gambits through misspelling "vote" or what have you recently to have let that one slide.
...or I could be town who believes that Mister Paper is scum based on his contradictory reasoning for voting you.
Either/or.
It’s probably because the word “opportunity” is in the sentence, but the bolded reads like Scum wording it towards a Town member.[/QUOTE]
You are incorrect, Mister Void. I recognize that following RVS, the person with the loudest argument is typically followed first. I did not wish to lose the sway of the post-RVS voting bloc that would inevitably develop at some point, so I opted to play striker and head off the momentum at the pass by corralling you all in the direction I desired the game to go. ^^ I am attempting to establish myself as a town leader early on due to the nature of my role.
Surely you do not find this out of line with anything I have done in the past, Mister Void.
As stated, I did not necessarily believe Mister Paper's vote to be of a genuine nature. This is evidenced by my follow-up questions to Mister Paper as to his RVS "preferences".
I addressed Mister Void on this already. It was not necessarily true that Mister Paper was intending to place a solid vote on Mister Void, as I sensed sinister intentions from Mister Paper in regards to his quasi-vote on Mister Void.
I concur wholeheartedly, Mister DC. I believe Mister Muse was attempting to allow himself room to jump on the Mister Paper wagon but avoid it completely if necessary due to the phrasing he used - a textbook example of hedging one's bets. I was quietly musing (^_^) about whether or not this was an individual tell or associative tell but determined that I felt Mister Muse was likely to be mafia-aligned regardless of Mister Paper's alignment.
I believe you are town for this post - not just for agreeing with me, but for pursuing an entirely new route of scumhunting that was not readily available through the potential wagons on myself and Mister Paper thus far.
^^
It is because as Miss Blue I tend to use needlessly obfuscating diction and complicated sentence structure choices instead of resorting to standard slang to maintain my pleasant persona, keep my mindset separated from what it typically is when I play Mafia - you will note that Miss Blue is a far more composed and organized player, which helps me tunnel less when I am wrong - and to allow me room to insert dripping sarcasm undetected when it is suited to the situation.
At least, that is my theory.
Please, Mister Rebel, walk me through why a member of the town could never make this post. I await your explanation eagerly.
I am waiting.
Why, I am quite obviously town. I am stunned you can not see it yet, Mister Cythare. Also, if you are aware of my identity, I would prefer you keep it to yourself for those who are unaware. ^^ Thank you.
This is fallacious at best, Mister Zombie. ^^ You are stating that I did not encourage discussion - but I did, in fact, encourage discussion. I followed Mister Paper on to Mister Void and did not provide ANY reasoning - not even "because No Lynch" - I merely quoted the post in question - which I imagined would spur people to action. I have explained all of those above whilst addressing Mister Void. That aside, I never had any intention of lynching Mister Void - my purpose was to see if Mister Paper would slip because I did not like his vote on Mister Void and wanted to expose him as mafia to the rest of you. However, I realized that the momentum was about to shift, and as such, I placed my vote on him. Ergo, you are voting me for placing a vote on Mister Void that was attempted to bait out mafia and facilitate discussion - not to lynch Mister Void - because you misunderstand my intentions.
Gee, Mister Rebel, why on earth would I allow the town to follow my train of thought for how I determined Mister Paper was mafia-aligned? Perhaps because I wish for a wagon to develop on him? But a member of the town would never do that, right?
When I believe people hold beliefs that are illogical or fallacious outside of Mafia, I like to ask them a series of questions based on what their belief is to allow them to come to the same conclusion I have. I think of it as "mentally holding their hand" since I am leading them to draw the conclusions, themselves.
Additionally, arguments are constructed through "fact -> expounding analysis -> inference -> conclusion" format, or were you not aware that you had to show your work to get full credit (or, in this case, convince other people of your viewpoints)?
You are being uncharacteristically aggressive, Mister Rebel. Why is that?
This is a complete and total strawman of the case I presented against you and a highly opportunistic OMGUS counter-vote. The crux of my argument, Mister Paper, was not that you were not committing to the wagon, and if you genuinely believe that, you need to take a moment to re-read my posts. You also have some questions I asked you that you need to answer.
Also - you say "It just seems like an overly paranoid conspiracy theory to me."
If I am paranoid, would that not indicate that I am town-aligned? Why would mafia have to be paranoid about players who attempt to start wagons without being held accountable for them? If anything, the logical play for a mafia-aligned Miss Blue would be for me to follow through with the wagon on Mister Void and use the momentum from that to push you after Mister Void [in this scenario] flips town.
Finally, I have seen mafia-aligned players perform similar actions to what I have accused you of - a prime example of this occurring was in Eeveelution Mafia, where Mister Seppel effectively counterclaimed Mister Tordeck, which caused Mister Tordeck's imminent demise - but nobody except for Mister Iso in that game attempted to hold Mister Seppel accountable for the slaughter of Mister Tordeck, and it ended up with the town losing as a result.
So yes, I am paranoid. Paranoid that such would be allowed to occur in this game.
I am relatively certain that Mister Cythare would not be able to compare my play on my main account to my play on this account in the slightest. ^^
Then your calculations are off, Miss FIGHTING, and you will eat those words. ^^
It shows Mister Paper's motives for voting Mister Void - I believe Mister Paper was attempting to swing at an easy mislynch in Mister Void based on the No Lynch vote. It also proves that Mister Paper was contradicting himself in his reasoning and retroactively making up reasons for voting Mister Void.
Again, there was no possible way for me to determine that at the time, Miss FIGHTING.
Are you referring to Mister Void's vote for a No Lynch? If so, the difference is that Mister Void is experienced enough to know that voting a non-player nets negative reactions. Mister Void's intent to leave RVS was plain to me, and that is another reason I do not believe Mister Paper to be town-aligned - because Mister Void's purpose was so obvious.
Again, it was obvious to me that Mister Void was baiting for a reaction. However, regarding your stance on Mister Paper, I disagree that a vote there fits. I think he may have THOUGHT it would fit there, but in doing so, inadvertently blundered.
I am not and you are wrong.
How on earth did you expect I should determine that Mister Paper was intending to vote for Mister Void, given my past experience with players who enjoy attempting to beguile their fellow players (and even, in fact, the host of the game) with voting shenanigans? I do not appreciate having to state my rationale ad nauseum. Do you believe I am psychic? Are you a psychic, Mister TK? Is that why you think you are able to determine whether or not I found it obvious that Mister Void's vote for No Lynch was not serious? I suggest you repair your crystal ball. ^^
-
Now, if there are any additional questions for me, I will happily answer them. However, the case against me is based on other people providing:
Strawmen
Misunderstanding of my reasons
Logical fallacies
Self-contradictory argumentation
False premises
and the presumption that I am unable to read Mister Void and his intentions, who is likely one of the most easily readable players present in this game.
As such, the wagon on me should be disbanded immediately, particularly given Mister Rebel's and Mister Paper's completely terrible and opportunistic votes on me. ^^
I also still do not believe Mister Muse is town, given his most recent post. I can explain why if such is necessary.
Mafia Stats
Kill shot: BB
Issue with my shooting? Please visit my helpdesk and help me learn to aim!
unvote
I'll be back either tonight or tomorrow night.
mod: vote count please
This is the most convincing bit about Paper, IMO (and is also illustrated in another quote below). I'm not convinced that he was pulling lynch/vote shenanigans but I believe that Blue is convinced. Regardless of that, I think the point about Paper contradicting himself with his vote reasoning is convincing. He voted for the No lynch because it doesn't help the game leave RVS - but neither do any of the other RVS votes - and then he used it to take the vote out of RVS. It seems like a made up reason for trying to start a wagon on an unorthodox move. If he had said something like "Void is reluctant to place a vote on another player, which shows self-consciousness" then I would have disagreed with him about Void's motives, but I probably would have thought that Paper was just misunderstanding Void.
Vote: PaperBlade
I couldn't put my finger on why I didn't like iRebel's post but, as pointed out, it was because he was insinuating that answering questions that would surely be asked proactively as opposed to reactively was somehow forcing an argument. He also said that he didn't understand the last part:
Which is the most convincing part to me.
As for Muse, I backed off of him because he seemed calm in his response and then didn't let it discourage him from almost immediately pushing Cythare to give more information (albeit on you). What did you see there that I didn't, Blue?
Cythare - what do you think of Blue's play now?
Town Win % = 75%
Mafia Win % = 75%
Overall Win % = 75%
Completed Game Log
2014: Best Mafia Performance (Group)
2014: Most Improved Player
2014: Best Town Player
2014: Best Overall Player
Not doing any analysis only a couple days out of the gates? My D1 play is always light on analysis while I get my bearings.
I know it is.
Yeah, that's part of why I was vague about it in my previous quote. People use gimmicks for a reason, and I don't want to lead with "hey Blue Electric is actually <person>" and ruin your fun. It just feels disrespectful. If it becomes specifically relevant later in the game, I might bring it up, but early D1 isn't the time.
There's also the fact that I'm bad at reading your main account anyways. Regardless, I actually don't like to use meta as a driving force for analysis. I've said this in previous games before, and tend to get flack for it, but I enjoy drawing from the current game and referring to old games if I'm on the fence. After Meta Mafia, constant meta use just isn't fun, and if it makes me a worse player in order to have more fun playing, I'm okay with it. That said, I do need to step up my in-game analysis here, which will come in a separate post.
Unvote from RVS vote.
If her playstyle is anything like her main account, I think she's town. Otherwise, if she really does differ her play here, I still think she's town but I'm not as sure.
Draft my cube! (630 cards)
Second I like Blue as town. I understand her reasoning behind her actions with the paper and void thing. They are not great but I understand after paper's post why Blue would vote for him. And I get why Blue would vote for Void for the no lynch. But it's sort of a 1 plus a glob of green paint equal 2 sort of thing. Not great, but questionable logic doesn't equal scum and I am not really feeling a scum mindset from her.
Paper I am willing to give the benefit of the doubt on the whole vote misunderstanding and I don't want to see him lynched because of it. He does leave a bad taste in my mouth because of his play and responses, but I want to let that fester a bit just to sort out the noise from this vote issue.
Void I like as town. So far solid play and decent mindset.
Town Win % = 75%
Mafia Win % = 75%
Overall Win % = 75%
Completed Game Log
2014: Best Mafia Performance (Group)
2014: Most Improved Player
2014: Best Town Player
2014: Best Overall Player
Because I didn't think it was a secret. I mean Blue revealed herself at the end of lolcats.
"He's a monster! He's trying to kill us! Get him!" Several crew members shouted as they sprang towards him.
"Hey, guys wait a minute. That's just a different syntax. They use it all the time on Curriculax and Fedex 8!" Paperblade looked around nervously.
"I need to go to the bathroom. Pull over at the next planet." FIGHTING was pacing.
"Super Planet 7-11 is just up ahead." Rezombied needed to grab something to eat.
After the team pulled over, iRebel noticed an old-timey postcard. "Hey guys look at this. It's got a picture of an old newspaper. Looks like a team called the Red Sox won the World Series 4 games to 1 back in 2013."
Shots rang out. Everyone hit the floor.
_____________
Vote Count:
Blue Electric (3): iRebel, Rezombied, Paperblade
Paperblade (2): Blue Electric, DCIII
Idle Muse (1): TK-421
Void (1): Asenion
Not Voting: Guardman, Idle Muse, Void, FIGHTING, Cythare
Vote count should be accurate through post #63. If I've made any errors let me know. Remember you must both Bold your votes and Unvote any previous votes.
I was hoping to get some kind of over reaction to me not moving my vote. It should have been obvious what I was doing considering my RVS post.
@iRebel:
I don't see how that comes from a Scum mindset. I could see either alignment making that type of post. Blue did an excellent job of explaining what happened. It's only a mater of time until things start getting figured out.
@Blue:
I accept your reasoning that you provided. I've still got my eye on you until certain events happen, but, for now, you have my trust. My vote is not going on paperblade though. There is too much uncertainty surrounding yourself and paperblade for me to place my vote there.
I see votes are going onto paperblade, but I don't see that as the correct course of action until we learn more about Blue/the game.
I believe the better route to be Vote: iRebel
By "lolcats" do you mean Kitty Trek?
Town Win % = 75%
Mafia Win % = 75%
Overall Win % = 75%
Completed Game Log
2014: Best Mafia Performance (Group)
2014: Most Improved Player
2014: Best Town Player
2014: Best Overall Player
Pardon?
I will deconstruct his post after work, Mister DC.
I did say I had preferred not to be outed for the newer players that did not know who I am.
Regardless, I will continue to play like Miss Blue as opposed to Mister Iso.
What do you think of Misters Muse and Rebel?
I feel like you have not been fully reading my posts, as this post indicates a non-thorough readthrough of my own. Why is that, Mister Dog?
You have not been reading my posts very thoroughly, then, Mister Dog. -.- I understand that you are not a huge fan of walls of text arguments, but I ask that you bear with me as I feel what I have to say is relevant and important.
Mister Void, do you believe this is relevant to Mister Rebel's alignment? Why or why not?
What do you think of Mister Muse, Mister Void?
Second this. Same for why you're town.
You are incorrect, Mister Void. I recognize that following RVS, the person with the loudest argument is typically followed first. I did not wish to lose the sway of the post-RVS voting bloc that would inevitably develop at some point, so I opted to play striker and head off the momentum at the pass by corralling you all in the direction I desired the game to go. ^^ I am attempting to establish myself as a town leader early on due to the nature of my role.
Surely you do not find this out of line with anything I have done in the past, Mister Void.
As stated, I did not necessarily believe Mister Paper's vote to be of a genuine nature. This is evidenced by my follow-up questions to Mister Paper as to his RVS "preferences".
I addressed Mister Void on this already. It was not necessarily true that Mister Paper was intending to place a solid vote on Mister Void, as I sensed sinister intentions from Mister Paper in regards to his quasi-vote on Mister Void.
I concur wholeheartedly, Mister DC. I believe Mister Muse was attempting to allow himself room to jump on the Mister Paper wagon but avoid it completely if necessary due to the phrasing he used - a textbook example of hedging one's bets. I was quietly musing (^_^) about whether or not this was an individual tell or associative tell but determined that I felt Mister Muse was likely to be mafia-aligned regardless of Mister Paper's alignment.
I believe you are town for this post - not just for agreeing with me, but for pursuing an entirely new route of scumhunting that was not readily available through the potential wagons on myself and Mister Paper thus far.
^^
It is because as Miss Blue I tend to use needlessly obfuscating diction and complicated sentence structure choices instead of resorting to standard slang to maintain my pleasant persona, keep my mindset separated from what it typically is when I play Mafia - you will note that Miss Blue is a far more composed and organized player, which helps me tunnel less when I am wrong - and to allow me room to insert dripping sarcasm undetected when it is suited to the situation.
At least, that is my theory.
Please, Mister Rebel, walk me through why a member of the town could never make this post. I await your explanation eagerly.
I am waiting.
Why, I am quite obviously town. I am stunned you can not see it yet, Mister Cythare. Also, if you are aware of my identity, I would prefer you keep it to yourself for those who are unaware. ^^ Thank you.
This is fallacious at best, Mister Zombie. ^^ You are stating that I did not encourage discussion - but I did, in fact, encourage discussion. I followed Mister Paper on to Mister Void and did not provide ANY reasoning - not even "because No Lynch" - I merely quoted the post in question - which I imagined would spur people to action. I have explained all of those above whilst addressing Mister Void. That aside, I never had any intention of lynching Mister Void - my purpose was to see if Mister Paper would slip because I did not like his vote on Mister Void and wanted to expose him as mafia to the rest of you. However, I realized that the momentum was about to shift, and as such, I placed my vote on him. Ergo, you are voting me for placing a vote on Mister Void that was attempted to bait out mafia and facilitate discussion - not to lynch Mister Void - because you misunderstand my intentions.
Gee, Mister Rebel, why on earth would I allow the town to follow my train of thought for how I determined Mister Paper was mafia-aligned? Perhaps because I wish for a wagon to develop on him? But a member of the town would never do that, right?
When I believe people hold beliefs that are illogical or fallacious outside of Mafia, I like to ask them a series of questions based on what their belief is to allow them to come to the same conclusion I have. I think of it as "mentally holding their hand" since I am leading them to draw the conclusions, themselves.
Additionally, arguments are constructed through "fact -> expounding analysis -> inference -> conclusion" format, or were you not aware that you had to show your work to get full credit (or, in this case, convince other people of your viewpoints)?
You are being uncharacteristically aggressive, Mister Rebel. Why is that?
This is a complete and total strawman of the case I presented against you and a highly opportunistic OMGUS counter-vote. The crux of my argument, Mister Paper, was not that you were not committing to the wagon, and if you genuinely believe that, you need to take a moment to re-read my posts. You also have some questions I asked you that you need to answer.
Also - you say "It just seems like an overly paranoid conspiracy theory to me."
If I am paranoid, would that not indicate that I am town-aligned? Why would mafia have to be paranoid about players who attempt to start wagons without being held accountable for them? If anything, the logical play for a mafia-aligned Miss Blue would be for me to follow through with the wagon on Mister Void and use the momentum from that to push you after Mister Void [in this scenario] flips town.
Finally, I have seen mafia-aligned players perform similar actions to what I have accused you of - a prime example of this occurring was in Eeveelution Mafia, where Mister Seppel effectively counterclaimed Mister Tordeck, which caused Mister Tordeck's imminent demise - but nobody except for Mister Iso in that game attempted to hold Mister Seppel accountable for the slaughter of Mister Tordeck, and it ended up with the town losing as a result.
So yes, I am paranoid. Paranoid that such would be allowed to occur in this game.
I am relatively certain that Mister Cythare would not be able to compare my play on my main account to my play on this account in the slightest. ^^
Then your calculations are off, Miss FIGHTING, and you will eat those words. ^^
It shows Mister Paper's motives for voting Mister Void - I believe Mister Paper was attempting to swing at an easy mislynch in Mister Void based on the No Lynch vote. It also proves that Mister Paper was contradicting himself in his reasoning and retroactively making up reasons for voting Mister Void.
Again, there was no possible way for me to determine that at the time, Miss FIGHTING.
Are you referring to Mister Void's vote for a No Lynch? If so, the difference is that Mister Void is experienced enough to know that voting a non-player nets negative reactions. Mister Void's intent to leave RVS was plain to me, and that is another reason I do not believe Mister Paper to be town-aligned - because Mister Void's purpose was so obvious.
Again, it was obvious to me that Mister Void was baiting for a reaction. However, regarding your stance on Mister Paper, I disagree that a vote there fits. I think he may have THOUGHT it would fit there, but in doing so, inadvertently blundered.
I am not and you are wrong.
How on earth did you expect I should determine that Mister Paper was intending to vote for Mister Void, given my past experience with players who enjoy attempting to beguile their fellow players (and even, in fact, the host of the game) with voting shenanigans? I do not appreciate having to state my rationale ad nauseum. Do you believe I am psychic? Are you a psychic, Mister TK? Is that why you think you are able to determine whether or not I found it obvious that Mister Void's vote for No Lynch was not serious? I suggest you repair your crystal ball. ^^
-
Now, if there are any additional questions for me, I will happily answer them. However, the case against me is based on other people providing:
Strawmen
Misunderstanding of my reasons
Logical fallacies
Self-contradictory argumentation
False premises
and the presumption that I am unable to read Mister Void and his intentions, who is likely one of the most easily readable players present in this game.
As such, the wagon on me should be disbanded immediately, particularly given Mister Rebel's and Mister Paper's completely terrible and opportunistic votes on me. ^^
I also still do not believe Mister Muse is town, given his most recent post. I can explain why if such is necessary.[/QUOTE]
Miss Blue reacts quite well to a lot of early pressure and comes off as both genuine and natural -- no flailing about. Exactly what I'd expect from Miss Blue in light of a certain development. I better understand your POV having re-read this massive WOT a couple times over. I'm willing to give Miss Blue the benefit of the doubt.
As for the uncharacteristically aggressive bit, with only three complete games my style is still evolving and developing. I don't think I've played any two games the same. But I was aggressive in Marvel Madness :).
Unvote
===
/barn.
===
@Void: Fair enough. The way Miss Blue presented the post stuck out as odd to me. I agree that she's done a good job of explaining and we'll get some clarity soon enough as the Day progresses.
===
@EtR (and everyone): Going to somewhat Limited Access until Monday. Should be able to at least post once, maybe twice each day, but not much outside that.
UUU Azami, Lady of Scrolls
RRR Diaochan, Artful Beauty
UR(U/R) Tibor, Lumia, & Melek (WIP)
Mafia Stats
Acknowledged and updated.
I believe this post could come from either Town or Scum. This is not the reason for my vote on iRebel. I will delve further into this at a later time. For now the time is not right.
I don't have a read on Muse currently. Give me some time and I will.
@iRebel:
What are your reads on FIGHTING and rezombied?
@TK-421:
What are your reads on Guardman, Muse, Asenion and Cythare?
Unvote my RVS vote.
I'll always lynch Iso Day 1 when I'm Town, so that imagine with me. Not ready to do it quite yet though, the day is young. At the moment I would like to
Vote DCIII
For reasons I'll explain later.
My cube: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/9981
Alright, I'll be here to refute you when you do... unless your reasoning is, "this is the only vote that should be cast on DCIII for the entire rest of the game," in which case, I'll back you up.
iRebel's most recent post reads, to me, like he's trying to back out of a hole that he stepped in.
I like this post by Idle; and it's where I was going with my line of questioning. Not only did Blue mention that she didn't want her identity to be outed but, if Guardman thinks that Blue is town, why would he let others know that she's a more veteran player? It feels like a warning, rather than an offhanded comment.
Plus, his response was that it was common knowledge - but if the game he referenced was Kitty Trek - that was almost two years ago.
I feel better about Idle after pointing this out, as well.
Town Win % = 75%
Mafia Win % = 75%
Overall Win % = 75%
Completed Game Log
2014: Best Mafia Performance (Group)
2014: Most Improved Player
2014: Best Town Player
2014: Best Overall Player
Are you sure you are town, Mister DC? This is a very weak argument. Additionally, my identity was recently re-ousted in The Family thread by Mister Void, but not everybody reads our clan thread, so I was hoping to avoid that knowledge spreading to avert any arguments to the effect of, "Miss Blue, you are playing this game completely unlike your other Mafia persona, therefore, I believe you are mafia-aligned." As I have stated many times before, Mister Iso (as he plays Mafia, at least) is not at all how I am out-of-game; BlueElectric was an attempt to subvert the negative stigma attached to the Iso playstyle, as well as approach the game in a far more pleasant and logical manner than the primarily gut-based, grating drives of Mister Iso to prove this.
As such, I did not want people to necessarily base my play on my other identity - hence the point of a gimmick - but I enjoyed the persona of Miss Blue too much not to bring her back for a few rounds of Mafia. ^^
So, my post no longer comes from a scum mindset?
At what point did you decide you would be playing this game in a different manner, Mister Rebel?
I will wait.
This post is incredibly underwhelming.
I also dislike this post by you. The conclusion I drew from Mister Dog's post was that he had not thoroughly read my posts, not that he was intending to oust me as another player for the sake of the mafia. As it is, there are plenty of prime lynch candidates on the playing field - Mister Dog was in no danger of diverting any attention onto himself, so he had no pro-mafia motivation to oust me publicly as Mister Iso - so I do not see why he would not either:
A. State such in pre-game mafia chat (as the mafia typically has this)
or
B. Wait until Night 1 to post it in the mafia chat since there was no pressure on him up to that point.
How on earth do you arrive at that conclusion, given the above?
-
I will break down Mister Muse's other post and identify what I did not care for in it in the following post.
Mister Muse states here that he does not believe Mister Paper's explanation, citing the rules of the game (though most experienced players do not even read the general rules section of the OP when they play, as it is all a repeat of what they have seen before), but then goes on to say that he can not discern a reason for Mister Paper faking a vote.
So, Mister Muse has hedged his stance here. He has given himself the room to either avoid Mister Paper's wagon or join it if it gains momentum. Additionally, I did state a possible motivation as mafia to fake a vote.
You say there's no benefit to share the information because there was no pressure on him - but if one or more of his teammates is/are receiving pressure and he wanted to clue them in, there would be a benefit there that he wouldn't want to wait until the end of D1 for.
iRebel pretty quickly backed off of his case that he was very certain of earier once he found out who you were and even mentioned as much in his reasoning.
I didn't think about the scum pregame chat as a possibility to communicate that, though.
Even so - if your conclusion that he hadn't thoroughly read your posts carefully is true, as opposed to intentionally outing you as a heads up, then how is he drawing this conclusion?
He's saying both that he understands your reasoning for your actions and that the logic is questionable. So, in order to form that opinion, wouldn't he have had to have read through and given thought to your argument? Why would he say that he both likes you as town while also saying that your logic doesn't add up if he wasn't fully aware of the content in your posts?
Something doesn't add up, IMO. Either he read your posts closely and still chose to call out who you were, or he didn't read your posts closely but still came to the conclusion that you were using questionable logic in your decision making.
There's something about that quote that actually feels like it's offering an out to those who jumped on you, because it's reducing your actions and arguments to using questionable logic without going into detail as to why the logic is questionable. Implying to everyone else that the votes for you are understandable but, at the same time, kind of coaching them to come off of you now. It feels like a post designed to damage control some early game mistakes by how quickly your wagon formed.
Town Win % = 75%
Mafia Win % = 75%
Overall Win % = 75%
Completed Game Log
2014: Best Mafia Performance (Group)
2014: Most Improved Player
2014: Best Town Player
2014: Best Overall Player
Mister Rebel did cite that as a reason, yes, but again, why would Mister Dog not share the information pre-game if he felt it was pertinent? Also, do you think a case can be drawn to associate Mister Dog and Mister Rebel as both being on the mafia team together at this point in time?
I can see your logic in the timing argument and that makes me slightly wary of Mister Dog; however, I already have 3 largely viable targets that I suspect of being mafia-aligned, and as such, I will place him on the backburner for the time being.
I believe Mister Rebel is suspect for backing off as soon as he discovered my experience, however, as it suggests to me that he was searching for an easy target, which he believed he found in me.
Which conclusion, exactly?I see that has been answered below.Again, I can see why you would think that. I just do not necessarily agree with it at this point. Mister Dog is on my radar but he is not an option I wish to pursue at this juncture.
@TK: You think that both Paper and Blue are scum? In other words, Blue is bussing Paper literally out of RVS over a non-issue? Please reconcile this for me.
@Blue: I have never eaten my words. Your entire premise is still faulty (though in a different way). I agree that paper's vote on void looks bad, but only if paper knows void. As with when you say it's not possible for you to determine that paperblade had voted*, it's similarly not possible for paperblade to determine whether void is reaction baiting or just throwing down a scummy vote. You and I knew what void was doing based on the fact that we know that he is experienced. Somebody who is so unfamiliar with our meta as to use Lynch: Playername instead of Vote: Playername? I doubt they'd have any idea. There was no indication that Paper had done any research into void or anything like that.
Can you tell my why paper's vote is bad in the universe where he has no idea that void is an experienced player? You say yourself that he may have thought a vote would fit there. I posit to you that he thought a vote would fit there because he doesn't know void.
Let me go about this another way. A complete newbie joins a game. It's not a gimmick, just a new player. Their RVS post is the same as void's: No lynch. Another player jumps in with a vote. Do you see this situation as the same or different, and if different, how so?
*this is the original faulty premise I asserted you were operating under. You are saying that when you see a player post "Lynch: Playername" you think to the various "voet" shenanigans that occurred in recent memory. When I see a player post "Lynch: Playername" and I think of the games some time back where players posted that, immediately came under heavy suspicion, explained it as being from a different site where they use different syntax, and it was written off as null. While I recognize the "lynch = voet" point of view I find it hard to believe that you didn't consider the other times this exact same thing happened.
I did not know that Mister Paper was not familiar with Mister Void - at the time I was unable to discern whether or not he was a gimmick. So yes, I would view it as different - but I was basing the initial "lynch vs. vote" argument on the premise that Mister Paper came from our meta.
Blue/iRebel are not scum together.
Odd, I thought I was voting Blue. Doesn't matter now.
Muse reads to me as town, with his analysis of Guardman's post. Whether or not it's correct is irrelevant. He's putting thought into it, which is the important part.
Asenion, do you have a read on him after 2 posts with nothing in them? I'm inherently suspicious of those with low post counts, and he only has 2% of this thread. However, I don't believe in lynching lurkers until we've mislynched town the first few days.
Guardman's only contribution to the thread so far is outing Blue. This is one of the times that I'll actually listen to another player and base my opinion off of theirs. Since Blue sees that contribution as null, and unless Blue and Guardman are both mafia and covering each other in some convoluted conspiracy, I'll stick with Blue's thought. Crappy thing to do, but hard to read one way or the other.
Cythare, right now, reads more of an active lurker. Note there is a difference to me about lurkers and active lurkers. While lurkers are suspicious, active lurkers are doubly so. The newest post is all about Blue's alter-ego, but it adds little. For these last three, I think we're just not far enough into the game to get a proper read on yet.
I did. Now, with the outing of Blue (apparently, my belief in not gimmick checking those I play with messed with me), there's no way a bus is happening. The wanting reactions from paper, the million and a half votes in a half hour, they all make sense.
Unvote
What's odd to me is the obsession with syntax. No person can separate their personas so completely (without a mental disorder) that they'd focus more on one thing than another. Blue make herself hard to read, but lucky for her, her mindset is just a hop, skip and a jump from mine (when I'm not being completely eccentric and off-the-wall) and I can adapt what I expect to see easily.
Mafia Stats
Kill shot: BB
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Yes, that is why my vote is still on Mister Paper.
I am certain, Mister TK, that there are some people that play Mafia in our delightful little subforum who would find this assessment not far off from the truth.
I made myself giggle.
Thanks for your explanation.
Unvote
---
@Cythare
Why did you say:
"I actually don't like to use meta as a driving force for analysis."
followed by:
"If her playstyle is anything like her main account, I think she's town"?
and where is the separate 'stepped-up' analysis post?
---
@iRebel
"no flailing about. Exactly what I'd expect from Miss Blue in light of a certain development."
So because Miss Blue is someone else, things that were scumtells before are now null? How many games have you played with her alter ego to come to this conclusion?
---
@BlueElectric
What do you think about this quote from paper:
"I don't think the NL is bad enough to call for a serious vote outside of RVS"
---
@Void
What exactly do you find scummy about iRebel's most recent post.
Void: I have Rez as lean town and FIGHTING as probable town. Rez's #43 sounded townie to me, and his interactions with you re: reaction baiting were good. Need to see more from Rez, particularly his response to Miss Blue.
EWP: Was hoping for more from Rez's reply to Miss Blue.
FIGHTING has been asking good questions and scum hunting all around. She's my third highest town read at the moment.
=====
DC: I didn't step into a hole, I was reaction baiting and trying to feel out Blue, specifically, and seeing who else would bite at the fact I intentionally sounded unsure ("maybe it'll make more sense"). Miss Blue's reaction to pressure was decent independently of the fact that she is <redacted>. The fact that she is <redacted>, however, made it slightly better because it's what I'd of expected from <redacted>.
=====
I do not like Idle's post (#72). Guardman outing Miss Blue doesn't put us at a disadvantage in the slightest. If anything I'd argue that known gimmicks are more of a disadvantage than knowing their real identity. The unknown piques everyone's curiosity in different fashions, from intrigue to suspicion to fear and a slew of other emotions, and how people handle those emotions is as varied as the emotions themselves. IMO, an unknown entity that displays game knowledge and that they're capable of handling themselves poses a bigger risk to scum than a known, veteran player would.
Not a fan of DC agreeing with Idle, either.
=====
Miss Blue:
1. Yes, that is correct in light of reading your wall of text.
2. I can't answer that without admitting to something I consider a bit embarrassing, but, here we go:
I don't actively choose to play any one way. How I play is tied to how confident I am feeling about my game at any one point. That confidence rises and falls based on both how clear I'm reading the game and how others are reading me. I associate being read as scum with bad play, especially as Town.
Take Marvel and Dr. Polyopticon, for examples.
In Marvel Madness I started off quite aggressive because I was positive I had nailed Generic as scum early on (and I was right in the end), but as the game progressed I backed off that read on Generic, found myself in a sea of white noise, and was neutral to scum at best in literally everyone's eyes. As a result I faded into the background that game and didn't contribute a lot.
In Dr. Polyopticon, I started off not really feeling that confident Day 1, but after getting my Night 1 investigative results I was able to start putting the puzzle together, so I felt my confident in my game and contributed more and was read well by, well, everyone.
It's something I need to work on and address, and the best way I know how is to just keep playing.
=====
More later. I need to begin getting ready for the game tonight.
Go Sox!
UUU Azami, Lady of Scrolls
RRR Diaochan, Artful Beauty
UR(U/R) Tibor, Lumia, & Melek (WIP)
Mafia Stats
Paper and iRebel are your chief suspects that were on your wagon earlier/or are still on your wagon. Guardman discussed your vote on Void and your logic when moving your vote to Paper. He also commented on Paper's play. He ignored entirely your suspicion of iRebel. iRebel then appeared to go into full back peddle mode.
Everyone on your wagon at that point in time who has since posted has dropped off of it; so I can't draw a direct connection between Guardman and iRebel other than iRebel's reasoning for both being on and for coming off of the wagon being worse than the others and still feeling like Guardman's post was wagon damage control.
I agree with your thoughts about Paper and iRebel - I still find Muse's response to my vote to be convincing. You analyzed his first post that drew my eye, but what did you find unconvincing about his response to my vote?
I agree.
I don't buy this. You first placed your vote on her and said that there was no way that her post came from a town mindset. Left it at that until Void followed up. What was there to bait a reaction out of? You didn't ask her questions, you decreed her scum while a wagon started to build. I do think you were trying to push a wagon on a player you thought was an easy lynch target at the time.
Also, you didn't pressure Paper, you pressured Blue. Then, later, you barned Guardman's comment about Paper (in your post in #68) where he said that he didn't care about the syntax issue but that he didn't like his subsequent play or responses... but you never commented on his play at the time his interactions with Blue were going on, merely choosing to focus on Blue for the way she approached Paper. So your focus was on Blue for the way she approached Paper, but you didn't mention suspicion of him at all, address him, ask him any questions... you just barned Guardman after the fact.
You were convinced enough that Blue was scum to flatly claim her as such. When questioned, you said it was that she was providing answers to questions she was asking herself to force an attempt to make a logical point against Paper (which was a bad argument for reasons already discussed). So you thought that Blue's actions against Paper were scummy enough for a vote without initial explanation but now, later, you agree with Guardman about not liking Paper's play. That doesn't add up to me.
I also don't buy the first part of this - basically saying that the unknown causes a slew of emotions so it's best for everyone to know who the player is. That's pretty convoluted, to me.
Then you say that an unknown entity that displays game knowledge and that they're capable of handling themselves poses a bigger risk to scum than a known, veteran player would... (which I agree with)
So wouldn't Blue staying unknown have posed a greater risk to scum if she is town? So why wasn't it detrimental to town for her to be outed?
So this logic, which actually works against your point, is enough to think poorly of Idle and less of me (who you declared town in your previous post)?
I think that your reasoning and stances are convenient to what you need them to be this game.
I want to hear what Paper says when he returns but I'm going to put my vote on my strongest read.
Unvote: Vote iRebel
Town Win % = 75%
Mafia Win % = 75%
Overall Win % = 75%
Completed Game Log
2014: Best Mafia Performance (Group)
2014: Most Improved Player
2014: Best Town Player
2014: Best Overall Player
The only thing that bothers me about Guard's outing bit was his response to TK, but it's just a gut reaction and I only trust that with people I know well.
I pretty much totally disagree with TK's 84, I don't think people that don't post much are inherently suspicious (although active lurkers are a different story)
Also FIGHTING raises a good point about TK in 79, and I'm not really satisfied with TK's response. Why does Blue's player identity matter?
Unvote, Vote TK
This post looks longer when I type it because the textbox is smaller. Now I feel inadequate.
I addressed the "backing off" thing above.
Anyway, three things in particular:
This struck me as natural town. It seems unnecessarily ballsy for scum to stick their neck out in this fashion. Those who start and push wagons early are, imo, more likely town.
I was looking for either an OMGUS post or a calm, cool, and collected post. This is the latter. If Miss Blue were scum, then I would've expected a reply attacking my (bad) logic instead of something calm, cool, and collected.
Straight up logical. I like logical. And I like the reference to Eeveelution as a support.
===
*snaps fingers*
The reaction baiting was exactly that: aggressive tone, vote, and declaration. I had a positive experience the last time I was aggressive early by nailing scum!Generic in Marvel Madness within 50 posts. I was trying it again.
You are correct, I did leave it for others to follow up. Because I wanted to see who did and how they handled it.
Contrary to what it may seem like, I do have an inkling of an idea as to how to play this game. I might not be that good at it yet, but I do understand how one plays.
I have a tendency to overly barn and tunnel. I focused on Miss Blue because that's who I was interested in at the time.
Couple things:
1. I did not like Miss Blue's post at the time. It struck me wrong. I went after it aggressively.
2. I know it was a bad argument. I put it out there because I was attempting to bait reactions.
3. In case I've not made it crystal clear yet, allow me to provide a tl;dr summary courtesy of the ****ing umpires who gave St. Louis a victory they didn't earn tonight:
I intentionally went after Miss Blue aggressively and promulgated* a knowingly bad argument for the purpose of soliciting reactions. Is it bad play? Maybe. That's a #postgame topic, and one I'm happy to have then.
* believe that is the right word.
Tell me DC, have you not stopped and asked yourself why no one but you, Void, and Miss Blue (obviously) have said anything about how I went so aggressively after her? Or the bad logic?
I don't know about you, but I find it most telling.
It really isn't convoluted. The unknown does, in fact, cause the emotions I listed and then some.
My point is this, since it wasn't clear the first time: Miss Blue is far likelier to draw the NK (assuming she is town in this scenario) if her true ID is hidden because she's clearly a veteran player. Having her real ID outed, whether she likes it or not, is going to cause people to juxtapose Miss Blue v. <redacted>, which is in our benefit because <redacted>, as far as I can tell, doesn't draw the NK early too often, and having an asset like <redacted> is in our favour.
I may think less of you for agreeing with something I find terrible, but I never said I stopped town reading you. I haven't.
======
So anyway, today (Sunday) is my birthday so I'll not be around at all to post. I'll catch up Monday. Pray that the ****ing umps don't give St. Louis yet another game.
UUU Azami, Lady of Scrolls
RRR Diaochan, Artful Beauty
UR(U/R) Tibor, Lumia, & Melek (WIP)
Mafia Stats
Point 1. You've also confused what I said. I didn't say that people that don't post much are inherently suspicious (look at my post count). What I was saying is that people who don't post CONTENT are suspicious.
Besides my RVS vote, my 6 posts have been on the various states of the game. Most of Cythare's 6 are RVS or "I think I know who Blue is".
Point 2.
I know Blue extremely well. It is, in fact, my job on this site to know Blue well (Secrets of modding revealed!). There's also the fact that it's a difference between a novice player and a veteran player. If Blue was one of our other veterans, I likely would have dropped off as well, since they are far more skilled at reaction baiting and so identity makes sense. Again, any persona adopted won't change ability, just style.
Mafia Stats
Kill shot: BB
Issue with my shooting? Please visit my helpdesk and help me learn to aim!
@Mod: Please take note.
Noted and updated through Tuesday. If you need more let me know.
As for me - Paper came back and didn't respond to the arguments against him at all, which is suspicious since he's been a significant part of the discussion since his previous post.
iRebel - a lot of things in that post aren't convincing to me. The last person I played with who said that they had a tendency to tunnel was mafia, tunneling (right, TK?). As an aside, I have a town lean on TK right now.
You say that you knowingly made a bad argument to solicit responses - what do you think is telling about the fact that only Blue, Void and I pressed your bad argument? What read were you hoping for? Both alignments would likely take an opportunity to point out a bad argument by a town player.
There's also a logical inconsistency with saying that you didn't like Blue's posts initially so you pressed them hard and that your argument against her at the same time was intentionally bad. If you didn't like her posts and thought she was scum enough to vote her, then why would you offer an intentionally bad argument against her when you did to bait reactions? Wouldn't you want to see how she responded to a good argument?
Just following the train of thought from point 1 to point 2:
Blue's post struck you as wrong and you were suspicious enough to vote her so you intentionally made a bad argument on her?
My vote is going to stay.
Town Win % = 75%
Mafia Win % = 75%
Overall Win % = 75%
Completed Game Log
2014: Best Mafia Performance (Group)
2014: Most Improved Player
2014: Best Town Player
2014: Best Overall Player
Yes. I keep forgetting I was the only one lolcating in the game.
Yeah, I didn't read that part sorry. I thought it was an open secret like Santa Claus. Plus I mean you did sign up as Miss Blue right after you outed in the sign-up thread so... but yeah I don't read walls of text too much.
I get bored reading walls of text, so I mostly skim them. You know how I am.
As for Mister Rebel I feel sort of neutral on right now.
Mister Idle (along with Mister DC) I don't really like, especially since I find his and DC's attack on me weak, forced, and somewhat convoluted. But I could be biased.
But walls o' text beget walls o' text, which is a never ending cycle of long posts.
I know what I am doing.
*Famous Last Words*
If you did skim over her posts, including where she asks not to be outed, how did you get enough of her content to conclude that you thought her logic was questionable?
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I skimmed over her walls o' text, not her regular posts. Her questionable logic was in a regular post.
I find it telling because only three people attempted to do any scum hunting re: my posts, which tells me scum is actively lurking/waiting to see if a serious wagon begins on me/someone. Knowing this will make vote analysis much more powerful going forward and helps establish a general pattern of behaviour to look for/expect.
I don't see it as a logical inconsistency at all. I feel there's a time and place for a variety of tactics, and you're right that approaching and handling Miss Blue's post as you are replying to me is the normal or traditional way of scum hunting and pressuring people. But as I have said, my goal was reaction baiting and imo, it has worked so far because we know scum is actively lurking/waiting for a serious wagon, and regardless of who gets lynched toDay we know vote analysis should be a very powerful weapon toDay/toMorrow.
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Thank you for this, TK!
@Idle:
How many completed games of Mafia do you have?
@iRebel:
You mean this post here:
Would you please explain what you find Townie about this post?
Did this have any change on your read?
Who are your top two?
@rezombied:
iRebel took the time to defend himself, but didn't do anything beyond that. If iRebel were Town, then I would expect more content in the form of Scum hunting.
The Town should be looking into iRebel more and putting votes here.
Why iRebel?I take it back. I don't much like #68. I don't like how iRebel quoted Blue Electric's entire wall of text only to comment on the whole post in generalities rather than on specific parts. It comes across like he's trying to add content with a large post, but no actual insight is provided.Blue Electric is given the benefit of the doubt because of who Guardman reveals her to be, and because she "comes off as both genuine and natural" - but Blue Electric already indicated that her playstyle here is distinct from her main.
I like Idle Muse's logic in #72.
Blue, the corollary to that is: what advantage is there as town!Guardman to outing you immediately? In retrospect, this has been :teamwork:. Your outing is null. That said, Guardman stated in his opening post that he had you as Town while also (clearly) not reading all of your posts. It instead was based solely on the paper v. Void thing. While I agree with his logic about you(Blue) looking town for it, ignoring your other content while calling you town based on one series of events is :thumbsdown:.
a) I don't like meta as a driving force for analysis, but that doesn't mean that it can't help inform. I can understand the apparent dissonance there, but the second part was an answer to a specific question:
There is always going to be memory of players' playstyles from previous games to inform my perception of them - I'm not a robot or an amnesiac - but I'm not going to leaf through previous games just to get a read on someone.
b) Obviously, it is here (or at least starting here). I don't post as much on weekends.
This is really starting to feel forced. I agree with FIGHTING that Blue and iRebel are not scum together, and while that doesn't necessarily mean it can't be town/town, iRebel's reactions are continuing to look questionable to me.
Can you please explain this more? First, you say that "we're" not at a disadvantage in the slightest, and say that known gimmicks are more of a disadvantage. Then you say that an unknown entity poses a bigger risk to scum than a known veteran. Doesn't your logic here sound distinctly contradictory? I would like you to please reexplain, because your response to DCIII seems to skirt this question.
In the mean time:
Vote iRebel
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I wanna say that I will make a case on DC, but I'm playing mafia for fun and that sounds like work right now. He's my top scum candidate because of the way he has phrased things and the sides of arguments he has chosen. If I ever get unlazy I'll point out the examples. His last post was somewhat redeeming though.
I don't intend to lurk this game, I'll stay caught up now hopefully.
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I had Rez at lean town, and but given the reply to Miss Blue, I'd move him to neutral leaning town.
Top two town reads are you and DC.
As I said in #87:
I am hosting people each night of the WS, so my time is limited, and I've been LA over the weekend. When I get computer time, it's not a lot and I have more than Mafia that commands my computer time. All I have time to do is defend myself — and that isn't going to change until after the World Series (when, exactly, will depend on who wins).
I do not see the contradiction, but sure, I have no problem re-explaining my POV.
Miss Blue is clearly a veteran player. If people cannot juxtapose her play against something (that something being her main account), I believe that makes her far more likely to draw the NK because the unknown is going to elicit certain reactions and emotions. As an unknown, she poses a higher risk to scum because it throws off the ability to assess threats in an objective manner, imo.
Having her outed as <redacted>, however, will cause people to juxtapose her play against her main account regardless of whether or not it is a good or bad idea. Knowing that Miss Blue is <redacted> allows for more objective assessment. Given it is in the town's best interest for pro-town (this is assuming she is, in fact, town) veterans to survive, I believe outing Miss Blue as <redacted> makes it less likely she'll draw the NK, which benefits us.
I hope that makes more sense.
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Last post for today as I'm finishing up on getting ready for tonight. Go Sox!
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I think that my issue was that I was equating "unknown entity" with "player of unknown ability", not with "veteran but we don't know who". The vague language of your posts confused me, and looked to me like a potential slip, which is why I wanted you to reexplain.
It was clear that Blue is a more seasoned player, but not necessarily how seasoned, and given that Guardman and Asenion are also well-seasoned, I am unsure how likely it would have been that he get the NK over one of them.
Previous experience told me that one post does not a town!Blue Electric make.
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