@TK: You think that both Paper and Blue are scum? In other words, Blue is bussing Paper literally out of RVS over a non-issue? Please reconcile this for me.
I did. Now, with the outing of Blue (apparently, my belief in not gimmick checking those I play with messed with me), there's no way a bus is happening. The wanting reactions from paper, the million and a half votes in a half hour, they all make sense. Unvote
What's odd to me is the obsession with syntax. No person can separate their personas so completely (without a mental disorder) that they'd focus more on one thing than another. Blue make herself hard to read, but lucky for her, her mindset is just a hop, skip and a jump from mine (when I'm not being completely eccentric and off-the-wall) and I can adapt what I expect to see easily.
So now, you think Blue is town and Paper is...?
Let me ask you a different question, since I apparently asked the wrong one. We know that Blue is who she is right now. You think that the Blue + Paper interaction, knowing who Blue is, makes sense as a Town x ??? interaction, correct?
However, why was this interaction believable as a Scum x Scum interaction ever? Even as two unknown players? As I said in my original question, for this to be true Blue would have to have been bussing to end RVS over something that really just isn't important at all. I cannot reconcile that as a scum on scum interaction, yet this was your immediate conclusion. Tell me more.
@iRebel
"no flailing about. Exactly what I'd expect from Miss Blue in light of a certain development."
So because Miss Blue is someone else, things that were scumtells before are now null? How many games have you played with her alter ego to come to this conclusion?
iRebel has, what, 3 completed games? Zero with Blue's alter ego?
Void: I have Rez as lean town and FIGHTING as probable town. Rez's #43 sounded townie to me, and his interactions with you re: reaction baiting were good. Need to see more from Rez, particularly his response to Miss Blue.
EWP: Was hoping for more from Rez's reply to Miss Blue.
FIGHTING has been asking good questions and scum hunting all around. She's my third highest town read at the moment.
=====
DC: I didn't step into a hole, I was reaction baiting and trying to feel out Blue, specifically, and seeing who else would bite at the fact I intentionally sounded unsure ("maybe it'll make more sense"). Miss Blue's reaction to pressure was decent independently of the fact that she is <redacted>. The fact that she is <redacted>, however, made it slightly better because it's what I'd of expected from <redacted>.
=====
I do not like Idle's post (#72). Guardman outing Miss Blue doesn't put us at a disadvantage in the slightest. If anything I'd argue that known gimmicks are more of a disadvantage than knowing their real identity. The unknown piques everyone's curiosity in different fashions, from intrigue to suspicion to fear and a slew of other emotions, and how people handle those emotions is as varied as the emotions themselves. IMO, an unknown entity that displays game knowledge and that they're capable of handling themselves poses a bigger risk to scum than a known, veteran player would.
1. I am easily the towniest person in this game.
2. I'm voting the next person who says they were baiting reactions.
3. I disagree for two reasons. One: The scum have (let's assume) three members, any one of whom could either know or figure out that Blue is who she is (see: this post and the next one... it really isn't that tough). So for all we know, they knew already. The second reason is that it's goddamn Iso. Put the players in this game on a skill level list and Iso is in the top three, if not the best. I think outing one of our strongest players, if she is town, is pretty much a negative for us all around... except that reason #2 contradicts reason #1.
I need another tea, I'm not thinking straight. Point is that I disagree with your reasoning (unknown vs known is a bad argument) but agree with your conclusion (outing Blue would be a downside if she were a true unknown. However, she is not, and thus we can assume with some certainty that the scumteam either knew a priori or figured out who she is, thus negating the downside.).
Anyway, this doesn't help me figure out your alignment at all so I just wasted ten minutes for nothing.
Idle's post seems ill thought out to me. If scum Guard knew that Blue was Iso, why feel the need to shout this to the world when they could keep quiet and kill him? I don't see a scum motivation to go "Hey this guy is actually really good" when that just makes town more likely to listen to them?
The only thing that bothers me about Guard's outing bit was his response to TK, but it's just a gut reaction and I only trust that with people I know well.
I pretty much totally disagree with TK's 84, I don't think people that don't post much are inherently suspicious (although active lurkers are a different story)
Also FIGHTING raises a good point about TK in 79, and I'm not really satisfied with TK's response. Why does Blue's player identity matter?
Unvote, Vote TK
This post looks longer when I type it because the textbox is smaller. Now I feel inadequate.
Well my point wasn't about blue's player identity because it actually totally does matter in this case, but oh well. This post is uninspiring. Thanks for the /barn though. Save it for when I'm actually voting somebody.
[COLOR=Blue]
I also dislike this post by you. The conclusion I drew from Mister Dog's post was that he had not thoroughly read my posts, not that he was intending to oust me as another player for the sake of the mafia. As it is, there are plenty of prime lynch candidates on the playing field - Mister Dog was in no danger of diverting any attention onto himself, so he had no pro-mafia motivation to oust me publicly as Mister Iso - so I do not see why he would not either:
A. State such in pre-game mafia chat (as the mafia typically has this)
or
B. Wait until Night 1 to post it in the mafia chat since there was no pressure on him up to that point.
How on earth do you arrive at that conclusion, given the above?[/COLOR]
I did not know that pre-game chat was allowed for the mafia.
I DO think there is a pro-scum mindset behind outing you toDay, rather than just in mafia chat, as I mentioned in my post; it puts the attention of the town onto you. I do not think that it follows logically that because we now know you're more experienced, that we should trust you more (as Paperblade suggests in #89); only that we should pay more attention to what you say, in a sense of critically analysing your behaviour.
The logic that I have previously stated is that, if you are town, Blue, outing you is totally beneficial for the mafia whether or not we trust or distrust you; if we distrust you, we're gonna be analysing your posts more, which is good for the scum; if we trust you and you are pressuring town, we're gonna be analysing your targets more, which is good for scum. Guardman wasn't necessarily trying to set you up as a lynch target, but rather, deflect attention TOWARDS town members, both you and potentially your targets too.
Which, in itself, suggests that other scum members were under scrutiny at the time Guardman posted that post, and he was deflecting on their behalf, so to speak. Continuing with further discussion of Blue's identity is only what Guardman wanted with his post, and I think we should proceed with more actual scumhunting. Since Guardman has yet to post again since my accusation, I'm gonna read back to see what the exact situation was when Guardman outed Blue and proceed from there.
@muse: how many games of mafia have you played before? Have you ever been scum?
I have played one serious game of mafia here before on Salvation, many moons ago. Never played elsewhere, and never been scum.
I already wasted ten minutes on this, not wasting another ten.
Thanks for the history info. So we are on even footing, I have played 6,043 games. All victories. FIGHTING: Cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs!
You say there's no benefit to share the information because there was no pressure on him - but if one or more of his teammates is/are receiving pressure and he wanted to clue them in, there would be a benefit there that he wouldn't want to wait until the end of D1 for.
Upon rereading, I see may argument is along the same lines as DCIII's, here.
Having reexamined the debate leading up to Blue's outing as Iso, my theory is that Paperblade is Guardman's scumbuddy. Not because of the Lynch Void / No Lynch mess, I don't think that's really a tell into Paperblade's alignment. Rather, it's that the main debate at that time is about the intent of Paperblade. The wagon that is the strongest is BlueElectric's, but the debate is all about Void and Paperblade as well, they're also people under the microscope. I do not believe Void or BlueElectric to be scum (Void, because I believe him about the NL being an attempt to draw comment, and BlueElectric, because of the logic above), so that leaves Paperblade as the potential person Guardman was trying to pull focus off by dropping that bombshell.
Additionally, I had not previously realised quite how strong the wagon on BlueElectric was (in terms of votes); I have even more faith in my reading of Guardman's post now; he was jumping on an opportunity to keep the focus on her and make sure the wagon didn't lose momentum.
I'm less confident of my opinion of Paperblade, as the logic that they're scum isn't based on their behaviour, rather the possible intent of Guardman, but it's worth bearing in mind, and I will be watching them closely.
Oh now this I hadn't considered.
Let me think about this. Opportunistically trying to drive the Blue wagon... by outing Blue as Iso? Does that actually make sense? We saw a bunch of votes come off. Scum Guardman would have had to know that this would happen.
If paperblade flips scum we can revisit this idea, but this is a weak justification for a gdog vote at present.
@iRebel: Break down Blue's response for me. What specifically do you find genuine and natural? To me it looks like you did just back off because you found out that Blue is a real femme fatale and not just some dainty debutante.
Blue/iRebel are not scum together.
I addressed the "backing off" thing above.
Anyway, three things in particular:
Quote from MissBlue »
You are incorrect, Mister Void. I recognize that following RVS, the person with the loudest argument is typically followed first. I did not wish to lose the sway of the post-RVS voting bloc that would inevitably develop at some point, so I opted to play striker and head off the momentum at the pass by corralling you all in the direction I desired the game to go. ^^ I am attempting to establish myself as a town leader early on due to the nature of my role.
Surely you do not find this out of line with anything I have done in the past, Mister Void.
This struck me as natural town. It seems unnecessarily ballsy for scum to stick their neck out in this fashion. Those who start and push wagons early are, imo, more likely town.
Quote from MissBlue »
Gee, Mister Rebel, why on earth would I allow the town to follow my train of thought for how I determined Mister Paper was mafia-aligned? Perhaps because I wish for a wagon to develop on him? But a member of the town would never do that, right?
When I believe people hold beliefs that are illogical or fallacious outside of Mafia, I like to ask them a series of questions based on what their belief is to allow them to come to the same conclusion I have. I think of it as "mentally holding their hand" since I am leading them to draw the conclusions, themselves.
Additionally, arguments are constructed through "fact -> expounding analysis -> inference -> conclusion" format, or were you not aware that you had to show your work to get full credit (or, in this case, convince other people of your viewpoints)?
You are being uncharacteristically aggressive, Mister Rebel. Why is that?
I was looking for either an OMGUS post or a calm, cool, and collected post. This is the latter. If Miss Blue were scum, then I would've expected a reply attacking my (bad) logic instead of something calm, cool, and collected.
This is a complete and total strawman of the case I presented against you and a highly opportunistic OMGUS counter-vote. The crux of my argument, Mister Paper, was not that you were not committing to the wagon, and if you genuinely believe that, you need to take a moment to re-read my posts. You also have some questions I asked you that you need to answer.
Also - you say "It just seems like an overly paranoid conspiracy theory to me."
If I am paranoid, would that not indicate that I am town-aligned? Why would mafia have to be paranoid about players who attempt to start wagons without being held accountable for them? If anything, the logical play for a mafia-aligned Miss Blue would be for me to follow through with the wagon on Mister Void and use the momentum from that to push you after Mister Void [in this scenario] flips town.
Finally, I have seen mafia-aligned players perform similar actions to what I have accused you of - a prime example of this occurring was in Eeveelution Mafia, where Mister Seppel effectively counterclaimed Mister Tordeck, which caused Mister Tordeck's imminent demise - but nobody except for Mister Iso in that game attempted to hold Mister Seppel accountable for the slaughter of Mister Tordeck, and it ended up with the town losing as a result.
So yes, I am paranoid. Paranoid that such would be allowed to occur in this game.
Straight up logical. I like logical. And I like the reference to Eeveelution as a support.
Were you expecting OMGUS from Blue?
And why do you like the Eeveelution reference?
I agree with your first reason.
I pretty much totally disagree with TK's 84, I don't think people that don't post much are inherently suspicious (although active lurkers are a different story)
Also FIGHTING raises a good point about TK in 79, and I'm not really satisfied with TK's response. Why does Blue's player identity matter?
Point 1. You've also confused what I said. I didn't say that people that don't post much are inherently suspicious (look at my post count). What I was saying is that people who don't post CONTENT are suspicious.
Besides my RVS vote, my 6 posts have been on the various states of the game. Most of Cythare's 6 are RVS or "I think I know who Blue is".
it's just a gut reaction and I only trust that with people I know well.
I know Blue extremely well. It is, in fact, my job on this site to know Blue well (Secrets of modding revealed!). There's also the fact that it's a difference between a novice player and a veteran player. If Blue was one of our other veterans, I likely would have dropped off as well, since they are far more skilled at reaction baiting and so identity makes sense. Again, any persona adopted won't change ability, just style.
I quoted this but have nothing to say about it until you answer my question earlier in this post.
I hadn't really read much past RVS. I just re-read the thread. There is seriously almost no useful content. It's basically people arguing about Iso and getting to know each other. I mean, I'm glad to know everyone's experience levels and metas as the game goes on, but I think I'm over that now.
I wanna say that I will make a case on DC, but I'm playing mafia for fun and that sounds like work right now. He's my top scum candidate because of the way he has phrased things and the sides of arguments he has chosen. If I ever get unlazy I'll point out the examples. His last post was somewhat redeeming though.
I don't intend to lurk this game, I'll stay caught up now hopefully.
thanks for this important post.
Also I have DC as a strong town read. I'm interested in your case.
Also, I just want to quickly say that I'm really not happy by Guardman's lack of response to my accusation. Everyone else; what are your opinions of him?
He's not piqued my interest one way or the other. See earlier in my post for my opinion on your point about him.
"I guess those weren't gunshots, but if Robo-puppy is going to explode, we need to get out of here. That shrapnel takes days to pick out of you." DCIII helped up Guardman. "And besides, we've got to get back to Planet Express. I'm sure Hermes' body is starting to...get ripe."
@TK: You think that both Paper and Blue are scum? In other words, Blue is bussing Paper literally out of RVS over a non-issue? Please reconcile this for me.
I did. Now, with the outing of Blue (apparently, my belief in not gimmick checking those I play with messed with me), there's no way a bus is happening. The wanting reactions from paper, the million and a half votes in a half hour, they all make sense. Unvote
What's odd to me is the obsession with syntax. No person can separate their personas so completely (without a mental disorder) that they'd focus more on one thing than another. Blue make herself hard to read, but lucky for her, her mindset is just a hop, skip and a jump from mine (when I'm not being completely eccentric and off-the-wall) and I can adapt what I expect to see easily.
So now, you think Blue is town and Paper is...?
Let me ask you a different question, since I apparently asked the wrong one. We know that Blue is who she is right now. You think that the Blue + Paper interaction, knowing who Blue is, makes sense as a Town x ??? interaction, correct?
However, why was this interaction believable as a Scum x Scum interaction ever? Even as two unknown players? As I said in my original question, for this to be true Blue would have to have been bussing to end RVS over something that really just isn't important at all. I cannot reconcile that as a scum on scum interaction, yet this was your immediate conclusion. Tell me more.
Because I've done it. Without any reference point to use, I had to use my own mafia games as reference. Since in Famous Historical Figures, I was more than willing to cannibalize my own teammates to score massive town cred, I tunneled hard. So Blue jumping on Paper with a poor argument was her trying to out a mate to score town cred when I look at the mafiate perspective. I don't expect a less veteran player to be able to reaction bait successfully. And that's where the fact that experience translates across personas comes into play.
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She wants a ride on the pony, dude.
Mafia Stats
Kill shot: BB
Issue with my shooting? Please visit my helpdesk and help me learn to aim!
Also, I just want to quickly say that I'm really not happy by Guardman's lack of response to my accusation.
I believe you missed the part where I said I was working on more stuff that I hadn't been able to get to yet.
As far as to why I outed Iso, I get the feeling you are way overthinking my reasoning and trying to make a mountain of an anthill. I don't really see it as helping the mafia or the town, just cutting down on the confusion and random speculation from the people who don't know about who is that mysterious girl in the deep blue tunic.
I outed Iso as Miss Blue because:
1. I didn't read where she said she didn't want to be outed.
2. He has already claimed to be Miss Blue in other games, so it's not really a secret.
3. With people knowing he is a gimmick and wondering about it out load I figured people should know who Miss Blue is since I and probably more than a few others like Asenion and Void know who Miss Blue really is from other games.
@Blue: There's nothing about the case to really respond to. You seem to think I'm cheerleading a case with a fake vote so that I can hop on the wagon later, but... then what's the point of the fake vote? Heck, what's the point in waiting to vote? You could say it removes suspicion from me later except anyone who's rereading will say "Hey that Paperblade guy started this wagon but didn't have the balls to put a vote down!" Or, like, whenever the mod puts down votals and I'm still listed as not voting? Or anyone who's reading now. It just seems like an overly paranoid conspiracy theory to me.
Idle's post seems ill thought out to me. If scum Guard knew that Blue was Iso, why feel the need to shout this to the world when they could keep quiet and kill him? I don't see a scum motivation to go "Hey this guy is actually really good" when that just makes town more likely to listen to them?
The only thing that bothers me about Guard's outing bit was his response to TK, but it's just a gut reaction and I only trust that with people I know well.
I pretty much totally disagree with TK's 84, I don't think people that don't post much are inherently suspicious (although active lurkers are a different story)
Also FIGHTING raises a good point about TK in 79, and I'm not really satisfied with TK's response. Why does Blue's player identity matter?
Unvote, Vote TK
This post looks longer when I type it because the textbox is smaller. Now I feel inadequate.
Paper - what changed between these two posts with regard to your stance on Blue? What do you think of her analysis of your initial vote on her?
You switched your vote from Blue to TK with no explanation as to why it was coming off of Blue and you didn't respond to any of the discussion between these two posts about you.
I hadn't really read much past RVS. I just re-read the thread. There is seriously almost no useful content. It's basically people arguing about Iso and getting to know each other. I mean, I'm glad to know everyone's experience levels and metas as the game goes on, but I think I'm over that now.
I wanna say that I will make a case on DC, but I'm playing mafia for fun and that sounds like work right now. He's my top scum candidate because of the way he has phrased things and the sides of arguments he has chosen. If I ever get unlazy I'll point out the examples. His last post was somewhat redeeming though.
I don't intend to lurk this game, I'll stay caught up now hopefully.
If you don't like the sides of arguments I'm on, explaining why will help show which sides of the arguments you find convincing. The only thing we really know about your views on any player in this game thus far is that I'm your top suspect.
I'd like to see more Asenion content. With regard to me because I have nothing specific to respond to; but also about other players. Right now you've given one read and then talked about how little content the game has had so far - and I disagree - there's plenty to discuss right now.
DCIII, yes my content has been terrible. I basically started playing yesterday. Why do you want to respond to a case so badly? I'm not putting any significant pressure on you right now. You should just be ignoring me unless you are worried I actually found something.
There is plenty to discuss, but most of the discussion so far hasn't been super relevant to scum hunting.
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An accurate description of myself:
Quote from Megiddo »
You're the dude who just lies a lot and makes people hate you and then magically becomes town later, right?
DCIII, yes my content has been terrible. I basically started playing yesterday. Why do you want to respond to a case so badly? I'm not putting any significant pressure on you right now. You should just be ignoring me unless you are worried I actually found something.
There is plenty to discuss, but most of the discussion so far hasn't been super relevant to scum hunting.
Asenion - most people are ignoring you because you aren't saying much. I want to hear more about what you think about the game. That can manifest itself however you want. I'm not worried about it being related to me. My opinions on the game right now are out there as well as why I think that way; yours aren't - and you're really the only player I have virtually no opinion on right now as a result.
@DC: I was unaware that Blue had seen people try to do that before, so I didn't think it was an actual thing that he was worried about and thought it was just some BS case.
@TK: I don't see how I misinterpreted you unless your definition of lurker/active lurker is different from mine? Lurkers are people who don't post much (sometimes with the requirement that they're also viewing the thread), while active lurkers are people that post but don't actually post relevant information, they're just trying to look useful. I mean, neither of them are particularly useful but I don't really think lurkers are scummy, although they're certainly not helping the town.
Also the gut reaction remark wasn't aimed at anything you said, it was something I said about my read.
Fighting is still town
@Cythare: Why do you like Idle's logic?
@iRebel: If only three people attacked you for your logic, do you think those three are town? Do you think it's possible they're scum trying to push a wagon? I think it's odd you jumped specifically to the conclusion that
I think it's a little odd that Asenion has nothing to say but at the same time I don't think this is something mafia would do unless it was a gambit specifically designed to elicit this sort of thinking.
At the time it made sense to me. Other discussion has since shown otherwise, but when I read #72, it made sense to me, because I felt like there had to be something more to it than just Guardman not reading Blue Electric's request not to be outed as noted here:
Blue, the corollary to that is: what advantage is there as town!Guardman to outing you immediately? In retrospect, this has been :teamwork:. Your outing is null. That said, Guardman stated in his opening post that he had you as Town while also (clearly) not reading all of your posts. It instead was based solely on the paper v. Void thing. While I agree with his logic about you(Blue) looking town for it, ignoring your other content while calling you town based on one series of events is :thumbsdown:.
I do not particularly desire to make a wall of quotes and responses, but I started one before I went V/LA, so I might as well finish it. Expect a post [relatively] soon.
Miss Blue:
1. Yes, that is correct in light of reading your wall of text.
2. I can't answer that without admitting to something I consider a bit embarrassing, but, here we go:
I don't actively choose to play any one way. How I play is tied to how confident I am feeling about my game at any one point. That confidence rises and falls based on both how clear I'm reading the game and how others are reading me. I associate being read as scum with bad play, especially as Town.
Also, do you think a case can be drawn to associate Mister Dog and Mister Rebel as both being on the mafia team together at this point in time?
Paper and iRebel are your chief suspects that were on your wagon earlier/or are still on your wagon. Guardman discussed your vote on Void and your logic when moving your vote to Paper. He also commented on Paper's play. He ignored entirely your suspicion of iRebel. iRebel then appeared to go into full back peddle mode.
Everyone on your wagon at that point in time who has since posted has dropped off of it; so I can't draw a direct connection between Guardman and iRebel other than iRebel's reasoning for both being on and for coming off of the wagon being worse than the others and still feeling like Guardman's post was wagon damage control.
Now that we know the difference, however...fair enough.
I can see your logic in the timing argument and that makes me slightly wary of Mister Dog; however, I already have 3 largely viable targets that I suspect of being mafia-aligned, and as such, I will place him on the backburner for the time being.
I agree with your thoughts about Paper and iRebel - I still find Muse's response to my vote to be convincing. You analyzed his first post that drew my eye, but what did you find unconvincing about his response to my vote?
As stated, if Mister Dog were part of the mafia, then the mafia would already know my identity. Additionally, it seems like a giant overreaction to Mister Dog's post, and an opportunistic vote at best. The push is weak.
Idle's post seems ill thought out to me. If scum Guard knew that Blue was Iso, why feel the need to shout this to the world when they could keep quiet and kill him? I don't see a scum motivation to go "Hey this guy is actually really good" when that just makes town more likely to listen to them?
The only thing that bothers me about Guard's outing bit was his response to TK, but it's just a gut reaction and I only trust that with people I know well.
I pretty much totally disagree with TK's 84, I don't think people that don't post much are inherently suspicious (although active lurkers are a different story)
Also FIGHTING raises a good point about TK in 79, and I'm not really satisfied with TK's response. Why does Blue's player identity matter?
Unvote, Vote TK
This post looks longer when I type it because the textbox is smaller. Now I feel inadequate.
This post is entirely self-conscious and reeks of Mister Paper and Mister Muse being mafia-aligned together.
1. I did not like Miss Blue's post at the time. It struck me wrong. I went after it aggressively.
2. I know it was a bad argument. I put it out there because I was attempting to bait reactions.
Blue's post struck you as wrong and you were suspicious enough to vote her so you intentionally made a bad argument on her?
My vote is going to stay.
Unvote, Vote Mister Rebel
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@Mister Cythare: I simply see it as indicative of Mister Dog being lazy.
I hadn't really read much past RVS. I just re-read the thread. There is seriously almost no useful content. It's basically people arguing about Iso and getting to know each other.
I think you are wrong and need to express stronger opinions than this, as you know quite well that there is much to be gleaned from early game posts.
The thing is though DC, you didn't ask me for opinions on the game or my thoughts on the ongoing situations. You asked me twice for why I thought you were scum.
I have a rough time on Day 1 and I've played very few low power or simple games. I normally dissect the set-up in this stage of the game and try to figure out how to use my role, but there isn't really anything to discuss about it here.
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An accurate description of myself:
Quote from Megiddo »
You're the dude who just lies a lot and makes people hate you and then magically becomes town later, right?
@TK: I don't see how I misinterpreted you unless your definition of lurker/active lurker is different from mine? Lurkers are people who don't post much (sometimes with the requirement that they're also viewing the thread), while active lurkers are people that post but don't actually post relevant information, they're just trying to look useful. I mean, neither of them are particularly useful but I don't really think lurkers are scummy, although they're certainly not helping the town.
Also the gut reaction remark wasn't aimed at anything you said, it was something I said about my read.
Sounds like our definitions line up. That's why I'm willing to lynch active lurkers Day 1, but I'll wait for lurkers. If lurkers continue to be problematic through the game, because of the anti-town nature of lurking, I end up getting willing to lynch them.
The reason I quoted the gut thing was because the question you asked about my sudden flip on Blue, where I had a gut reaction, which is something that I only trust with people I know. Just like you.
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She wants a ride on the pony, dude.
Mafia Stats
Kill shot: BB
Issue with my shooting? Please visit my helpdesk and help me learn to aim!
The thing is though DC, you didn't ask me for opinions on the game or my thoughts on the ongoing situations. You asked me twice for why I thought you were scum.
I have a rough time on Day 1 and I've played very few low power or simple games. I normally dissect the set-up in this stage of the game and try to figure out how to use my role, but there isn't really anything to discuss about it here.
If you don't like the sides of arguments I'm on, explaining why will help show which sides of the arguments you find convincing.The only thing we really know about your views on any player in this game thus far is that I'm your top suspect.
I'd like to see more Asenion content. With regard to me because I have nothing specific to respond to; but also about other players. Right now you've given one read and then talked about how little content the game has had so far - and I disagree - there's plenty to discuss right now.
Not sure what you're getting at by painting it that way, but I thought that it was pretty clear that I was looking for your opinion on the game and other players in it and not just me.
If you want a specific question, I'd like to know what you think of iRebel, PaperBlade, and Guardman.
At the time it made sense to me. Other discussion has since shown otherwise, but when I read #72, it made sense to me, because I felt like there had to be something more to it than just Guardman not reading Blue Electric's request not to be outed as noted here:
Blue, the corollary to that is: what advantage is there as town!Guardman to outing you immediately? In retrospect, this has been :teamwork:. Your outing is null. That said, Guardman stated in his opening post that he had you as Town while also (clearly) not reading all of your posts. It instead was based solely on the paper v. Void thing. While I agree with his logic about you(Blue) looking town for it, ignoring your other content while calling you town based on one series of events is :thumbsdown:.
The part you quoted from yourself is similar to the argument that I've made.
Blue has said she interpreted it as Guardman being lazy and Guardman has said that he only read the shorter posts, not the walls of text. Have you played with Guardman enough to know if that's typical/do you find that believable?
@iRebel: If only three people attacked you for your logic, do you think those three are town? Do you think it's possible they're scum trying to push a wagon? I think it's odd you jumped specifically to the conclusion that
Sure, it's possible, but I think it is unlikely because they're naturally going to come under the microscope toMorrow if I were to be lynched toDay, and I don't see scum buddies tying themselves together so closely like that.
=====
@ FIGHTING:
1. I wasn't "expecting" OMGUS, but it would not have shocked me.
2. I liked the Eevee reference for providing supporting evidence of what she was saying.
=====
Game 6 tonight! LET'S GO SOX!
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EDH UUU Azami, Lady of Scrolls RRR Diaochan, Artful Beauty UR(U/R) Tibor, Lumia, & Melek (WIP)
I don't have any hard numbers on this, but I'm targeted more often than a black guy driving a beat-up sedan with a broken tail-light and no license plate, and Cy's well aware of that.
The part you quoted from yourself is similar to the argument that I've made.
Blue has said she interpreted it as Guardman being lazy and Guardman has said that he only read the shorter posts, not the walls of text. Have you played with Guardman enough to know if that's typical/do you find that believable?
I have played with him a few times before, but never paid attention to his reading/catch-up style. I can definitely see glossing over walls of text if you want to catch up quickly (I've done this before myself), but I'm more skeptical of proclaiming someone Town this early on in the game while doing so.
@Mister Cythare: I simply see it as indicative of Mister Dog being lazy.
is also a distinct possibility. Pursuing this avenue further isn't really going to get anywhere, so I'll just stop pursuing it and keep an eye on Guardman.
@DC: I was unaware that Blue had seen people try to do that before, so I didn't think it was an actual thing that he was worried about and thought it was just some BS case.
How do you feel about Blue now? I don't really have any sense of where you stand on most things. I have a better sense on you than I do of Asenion, but not by much.
I have played with him a few times before, but never paid attention to his reading/catch-up style. I can definitely see glossing over walls of text if you want to catch up quickly (I've done this before myself), but I'm more skeptical of proclaiming someone Town this early on in the game while doing so.
I agree with this and should rephrase the purpose of my previous question because I wasn't meaning to ask if you found it believable that he didn't read all of her text - it's not just that he didn't read the walls of text; it's that he labeled Blue town while also saying that she was using questionable logic to form a case without reading all of her content. I have made previous arguments about why I find that suspicious both of itself and in the context of what was going on, and don't find it to be very believable that a player as experienced as Guardman would be prone to make assertions like that without knowing all of the stances of that player.
Blue read him as being lazy, which is why I wanted to ask you (and anyone else, for that matter, who's played with him before is welcome to chime in) if that seems consistent with his play style (that he'd voice an opinion as town about a player's alignment without reading all of that player's content due to the content being cumbersome).
I have played with him a few times before, but never paid attention to his reading/catch-up style. I can definitely see glossing over walls of text if you want to catch up quickly (I've done this before myself), but I'm more skeptical of proclaiming someone Town this early on in the game while doing so.
Sometimes I can channel the spirit of kpaca and tell stuff from one post. I am good like that.
On more good news everyone Asenion is currently Asenion. So for all those afraid he was a lizard person...
I'm used to using lynch user or ##vote user for the syntax. That theory is pretty wild. And yes, I acknowledged when first questioned that technically that lets us leave RVS, but it's not in a way I'm fond of.
vote Void
I'm not convinced by this, too... how to vote is clearly laid out in the rules, and there was a whole bunch of RVS voting that demonstrates it, you'd really have to be not reading the thread OR the rules to miss that.
Where is it common to use that syntax, Paperblade?
That said, I can't see any scum reason to psuedo-vote Void like that...
Quote from BlueElectric »
My thought process was, "Vote for Mister Void and see what Mister Paper does, as well as how Mister Void reacts."
Why the focus on Paperblade at that point? What so grabbed your attention about them previous to your vote on Void, compared to other players?
Vote Idle
I haven't found a post I've liked of his. But I keep coming back to this post in particular. His initial attack on Muse is weird because everytime I read his post it feels more like he should be placing his vote on paper than not. And I don't really understand his explanation since it doesn't seem to jive with what he said. He is not convinced by Paper's explanation and then goes on to point out it's in the rules and says that there were other votes to show how it's done, but then says he doesn't find it scummy.
He is building up these points against Paper. And he is clearly attacking Paper. But he puts nothing behind what he says. It's an attack without commitment.
It comes from a place of confusion; I've never seen anything like a weird pseudo-not-actually-a-vote-but-trying-to-look-like-one before, and my questions were just trying to understand if that was intentional or not, or what was intentional. To put it simply, I wasn't suspicious of Paper, and to clarify here, I don't think tripping up on syntax is scummy, just confused as to how that came about.
His explanation when questioned by DC also doesn't jive with what he said in the post above, since he claims he was confused and wanted to get to the truth of it and that he was never suspicious of Paper. But given where he explains how Paper should not not know (double negative) how voting is done, I don't really see the confusion.
I don't have any hard numbers on this, but I'm targeted more often than a black guy driving a beat-up sedan with a broken tail-light and no license plate, and Cy's well aware of that.
I don't have any hard numbers on this, but I'm targeted more often than a black guy driving a beat-up sedan with a broken tail-light and no license plate, and Cy's well aware of that.
I agree with this and should rephrase the purpose of my previous question because I wasn't meaning to ask if you found it believable that he didn't read all of her text - it's not just that he didn't read the walls of text; it's that he labeled Blue town while also saying that she was using questionable logic to form a case without reading all of her content. I have made previous arguments about why I find that suspicious both of itself and in the context of what was going on, and don't find it to be very believable that a player as experienced as Guardman would be prone to make assertions like that without knowing all of the stances of that player.
Blue read him as being lazy, which is why I wanted to ask you (and anyone else, for that matter, who's played with him before is welcome to chime in) if that seems consistent with his play style (that he'd voice an opinion as town about a player's alignment without reading all of that player's content due to the content being cumbersome).
I didn't realize this was a question. I don't know, though. Guardman isn't that easy to pin early on, but I'm always skeptical of people proclaiming someone else town early on based on a small percentage of their content.
I don't think Guardman is that easy to read early on and Paper hasn't done anything to impact me yet.
I agree on Guardman, but define "impact". Your only content so far has been statements that there isn't enough content and saying that people haven't made an impression on you, and you've only stated the latter when asked a direct question. I'd love to see something from you that isn't active lurking.
I have played with him a few times before, but never paid attention to his reading/catch-up style. I can definitely see glossing over walls of text if you want to catch up quickly (I've done this before myself), but I'm more skeptical of proclaiming someone Town this early on in the game while doing so.
Sometimes I can channel the spirit of kpaca and tell stuff from one post. I am good like that.
On more good news everyone Asenion is currently Asenion. So for all those afraid he was a lizard person...
But in other news after rereading and such...
I haven't seen you pin people like this before, so pardon me if I stay skeptical of your ability.
On Asenion, I'm not sure that qualifies as "good news".
I'm used to using lynch user or ##vote user for the syntax. That theory is pretty wild. And yes, I acknowledged when first questioned that technically that lets us leave RVS, but it's not in a way I'm fond of.
vote Void
I'm not convinced by this, too... how to vote is clearly laid out in the rules, and there was a whole bunch of RVS voting that demonstrates it, you'd really have to be not reading the thread OR the rules to miss that.
Where is it common to use that syntax, Paperblade?
That said, I can't see any scum reason to psuedo-vote Void like that...
Quote from BlueElectric »
My thought process was, "Vote for Mister Void and see what Mister Paper does, as well as how Mister Void reacts."
Why the focus on Paperblade at that point? What so grabbed your attention about them previous to your vote on Void, compared to other players?
Vote Idle
I haven't found a post I've liked of his. But I keep coming back to this post in particular. His initial attack on Muse is weird because everytime I read his post it feels more like he should be placing his vote on paper than not. And I don't really understand his explanation since it doesn't seem to jive with what he said. He is not convinced by Paper's explanation and then goes on to point out it's in the rules and says that there were other votes to show how it's done, but then says he doesn't find it scummy.
He is building up these points against Paper. And he is clearly attacking Paper. But he puts nothing behind what he says. It's an attack without commitment.
Idle's initial attack was weak, but given that the whole basis of the initial wagon on Paper began with the syntax argument (which was weak), I didn't find this post to be an issue by itself, especially since he's a newer player.
It comes from a place of confusion; I've never seen anything like a weird pseudo-not-actually-a-vote-but-trying-to-look-like-one before, and my questions were just trying to understand if that was intentional or not, or what was intentional. To put it simply, I wasn't suspicious of Paper, and to clarify here, I don't think tripping up on syntax is scummy, just confused as to how that came about.
His explanation when questioned by DC also doesn't jive with what he said in the post above, since he claims he was confused and wanted to get to the truth of it and that he was never suspicious of Paper. But given where he explains how Paper should not not know (double negative) how voting is done, I don't really see the confusion.
This post, on the other hand, is a good catch, as it is backtracking on a previous statement. I still feel more strongly about iRebel but going back through Idle Muse's posts is on the short list.
On a related note, Guardman, what are your thoughts on iRebel? If you've already addressed this, let me know.
I agree with some of your stances re: Blue and Paper (though I wouldn't ever completely write Blue off as town) but can you walk me through your reasoning here on all points? I'm not following your train of thought.
Also, did you read iRebel more like you said you needed to and, if so, what did you conclude?
Asenion, can you clarify what you mean by "anything to impact me"?
Nothing to influence my read on his alignment.
The truth is, without a set-up to analyze I have no idea what to do on Day 1. I've never played a Basic. The only times I've been in basic complexity games I've either replaced in later or replaced out after losing all motivation.
The discussions so far are over who is what gimmicks, past experience, and RVS tells. None of those things really influence my reads.
I need to see a flip, learn something about someone's role, have a reason to defend myself, or have an objective before I start getting into it I think.
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An accurate description of myself:
Quote from Megiddo »
You're the dude who just lies a lot and makes people hate you and then magically becomes town later, right?
For those who don't know me, I generally like to focus one one thing at a time in mafia games. It keeps me focused. Of course, my once-every-two-days posting style has made that awkward as I sort of have to play catchup.
Anyway, I came into the paper/blue situation thinking that paper had made a harmless mistake and that blue was pouncing opportunistically on said mistake. However, after questioning blue for the entire Day so far I think that blue was simply looking at the situation from different perspective. When I take away this piece of contention, everything else points to blue being town.
Now, that doesn't automatically mean that paper is scum. I still feel that the lynch instead of vote thing is null. However, there is plenty more to look at.
Most of this has been covered already but I'll reiterate:
-Paper's reasoning for the void vote
-Paper voting blue while saying that blue's reasoning was a "paranoid conspiracy theory." That's a scumslip, boys (and girl). Additionally,I don't usually sling OMGUS around (people overuse the term for any form of countervoting, when it really is a much narrower definition) but when the reasoning is this bad it looks like it.
-Barning and buddying me. I'm not sure why he picked me for this but hey, there you go. I haven't done anything this game so it's particularly suspect. He ended up voting TK based on a question I asked him rather than any case.
That brings me to TK. I'll actually quote the post for you:
We don't leave RVS until I get a vote. I've had it with people assuming we can just leave RVS because I work a night shift.
Vote IdleMuse for not being an Avenger.
Look at all of these actual posts to respond to!
:slowclap: Do you love plankton too?
Anyway, regarding Paperblade: While the syntax is odd, I don't believe that to be a way of voting while not voting (an FOS would have been much easier). However, the way paper does just jump on Void looks incredibly bad, and blue's barning and then trying to pass it off as reaction baiting looks worse. Here's what bothers me most:
Firstly, Mister Paper did not actually vote for Mister Void.
Finally, Mister Paper's explanation for voting Void
Paperblade doesn't actually explain the whole syntax thing until half an hour after that post. So Blue knew Paper was trying to vote, but twisting it to make it look bad. I still don't like Paper, but Blue's more visible right now.
Vote: BlueElectric
I cut out the first part of the post, which is also problematic but not what I care about right now.
Watch what he does in this post. Paper's under pressure. Scumbuddy TK acknowledges this pressure, even adds some superfluous reasoning... but spins this into a blue vote.
"I still don't like paper, but"
And then a vote on Blue, whose wagon was already about four votes deep.
@TK: You think that both Paper and Blue are scum? In other words, Blue is bussing Paper literally out of RVS over a non-issue? Please reconcile this for me.
I did. Now, with the outing of Blue (apparently, my belief in not gimmick checking those I play with messed with me), there's no way a bus is happening. The wanting reactions from paper, the million and a half votes in a half hour, they all make sense. Unvote
What's odd to me is the obsession with syntax. No person can separate their personas so completely (without a mental disorder) that they'd focus more on one thing than another. Blue make herself hard to read, but lucky for her, her mindset is just a hop, skip and a jump from mine (when I'm not being completely eccentric and off-the-wall) and I can adapt what I expect to see easily.
Later on, after I question him on his logic, he backs off, citing the Blue = Iso thing.
But..... no revote on Paper. I think at this point he was trying to see if the pressure would dissipate.
He still hasn't voted despite explicitly naming paper as a scum suspect (later on).
@FIGHTING - I have voted for and would support a Paper lynch, but I recommend that you look into iRebel and the case on him in more detail, because I still think that's the best wagon, though both are good.
Asenion, can you clarify what you mean by "anything to impact me"?
Nothing to influence my read on his alignment.
The truth is, without a set-up to analyze I have no idea what to do on Day 1. I've never played a Basic. The only times I've been in basic complexity games I've either replaced in later or replaced out after losing all motivation.
The discussions so far are over who is what gimmicks, past experience, and RVS tells. None of those things really influence my reads.
I need to see a flip, learn something about someone's role, have a reason to defend myself, or have an objective before I start getting into it I think.
Anyway, I came into the paper/blue situation thinking that paper had made a harmless mistake and that blue was pouncing opportunistically on said mistake. However, after {stuff} I think that blue was simply looking at the situation from different perspective. When I take away this piece of contention, everything else points to blue being town.
...
Later on, after I question him on his logic, he backs off, citing the Blue = Iso thing.
But..... no revote on Paper. I think at this point he was trying to see if the pressure would dissipate.
He still hasn't voted despite explicitly naming paper as a scum suspect (later on).
QED. Join me on the glorious paperblade wagon.
I'll join the paper wagon when I very well feel like it and will not be bullied into it before I am ready. I have my own reasons for voting blue when and how I did. I will have my own reasons for voting Paper when the time comes.
I do find that you're backing off of Blue because of an understanding of perspective being acceptable while my backing off of Blue because of an understanding of perspective being unacceptable quite quaint. Please reconcile.
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She wants a ride on the pony, dude.
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well, for one, I actually questioned blue and tried to figure out why she thought what she did and fit that into my own perspective of the game state. You... didn't. You asked one question before blue was outed. Blue did not even answer this question, but in your next post you are unvoting! When you did, pretty much your only cited reason was blue's true identity.
Yes, we both changed our perspectives. I changed from the perspective of "There's no way blue could ever think that" to "it's actually reasonable that blue could have thought that."
You changed from "blue is an inexperienced player" to "blue is an experienced player."
I see you trying to push easy wagons and letting off steam when you learned they weren't so easy.
As for paper, I appreciate that you're trying to cast me as a bully but you still aren't voting anybody right now. Why so vote-shy when you have specifically stated that paper is a suspect?
I'm talking myself into a TK lynch over paper right now.
You changed from "blue is an inexperienced player" to "blue is an experienced player."
I see you trying to push easy wagons and letting off steam when you learned they weren't so easy.
As for paper, I appreciate that you're trying to cast me as a bully but you still aren't voting anybody right now. Why so vote-shy when you have specifically stated that paper is a suspect?
I'm talking myself into a TK lynch over paper right now.
No, I went from "Blue is someone I have no idea about" to "Blue is someone that I spend large amounts of time conversing with and know well." I'm not going to proclaim that I've got the mystical Soul Read™ on Blue, but it does give me the unique perspective to be willing to just drop off Blue for the revelation.
However, considering that Paper seems to be an easy lynch, why would I not go for it? Because he's my buddy? Hardly, I'm always glad to lynch my buddies. So much so that it seems to get me day-killed on Day 1 every time. My own meta suggests that Blue is actually my buddy, and not paper, if I am mafia. I am not however.
Again, I will vote paper when I believe it to be correct. I am always vote shy, and use my vote as a marker of those I am fairly confident in being mafia. Just because someone is my top suspect, does not place them into voting range. I could read EVERYONE as town, but by necessary definition, someone will be my top suspect. Conversely, one could be my top suspect, and within the comfortable range of suspicion to vote, and one little bit of information drops them down enough to no longer be vote worthy (and my top suspect).
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She wants a ride on the pony, dude.
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My cube: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/9981
So now, you think Blue is town and Paper is...?
Let me ask you a different question, since I apparently asked the wrong one. We know that Blue is who she is right now. You think that the Blue + Paper interaction, knowing who Blue is, makes sense as a Town x ??? interaction, correct?
However, why was this interaction believable as a Scum x Scum interaction ever? Even as two unknown players? As I said in my original question, for this to be true Blue would have to have been bussing to end RVS over something that really just isn't important at all. I cannot reconcile that as a scum on scum interaction, yet this was your immediate conclusion. Tell me more.
And.... my arguments........... you just feel they have no merit here or what?
iRebel has, what, 3 completed games? Zero with Blue's alter ego?
1. I am easily the towniest person in this game.
2. I'm voting the next person who says they were baiting reactions.
3. I disagree for two reasons. One: The scum have (let's assume) three members, any one of whom could either know or figure out that Blue is who she is (see: this post and the next one... it really isn't that tough). So for all we know, they knew already. The second reason is that it's goddamn Iso. Put the players in this game on a skill level list and Iso is in the top three, if not the best. I think outing one of our strongest players, if she is town, is pretty much a negative for us all around... except that reason #2 contradicts reason #1.
I need another tea, I'm not thinking straight. Point is that I disagree with your reasoning (unknown vs known is a bad argument) but agree with your conclusion (outing Blue would be a downside if she were a true unknown. However, she is not, and thus we can assume with some certainty that the scumteam either knew a priori or figured out who she is, thus negating the downside.).
Anyway, this doesn't help me figure out your alignment at all so I just wasted ten minutes for nothing.
Well my point wasn't about blue's player identity because it actually totally does matter in this case, but oh well. This post is uninspiring. Thanks for the /barn though. Save it for when I'm actually voting somebody.
I already wasted ten minutes on this, not wasting another ten.
Thanks for the history info. So we are on even footing, I have played 6,043 games. All victories. FIGHTING: Cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs!
Oh now this I hadn't considered.
Let me think about this. Opportunistically trying to drive the Blue wagon... by outing Blue as Iso? Does that actually make sense? We saw a bunch of votes come off. Scum Guardman would have had to know that this would happen.
If paperblade flips scum we can revisit this idea, but this is a weak justification for a gdog vote at present.
Were you expecting OMGUS from Blue?
And why do you like the Eeveelution reference?
I agree with your first reason.
I quoted this but have nothing to say about it until you answer my question earlier in this post.
My takeaway from this post is that I need to reread iRebel.
Perhaps tomorrow night.
thanks for this important post.
Also I have DC as a strong town read. I'm interested in your case.
I have bad news for you.
He's not piqued my interest one way or the other. See earlier in my post for my opinion on your point about him.
"Robo-puppy will self destruct in T-10 minutes."
"I guess those weren't gunshots, but if Robo-puppy is going to explode, we need to get out of here. That shrapnel takes days to pick out of you." DCIII helped up Guardman. "And besides, we've got to get back to Planet Express. I'm sure Hermes' body is starting to...get ripe."
"Robo-puppy is short circuiting. T-2 Minutes."
"..."
"LET'S GO!"
_______________________
iRebel (3): Void, DCIII, Cythare
Paperblade (1): BlueElectric
DCIII (1): Asenion
Guardman (1): Idle Muse
TK-421 (1): Paperblade
Not Voting: Guardman, FIGHTING, iRebel, TK-421, Rezombied
If I remember correctly you forgot to unvote. If not, my apologies.
Because I've done it. Without any reference point to use, I had to use my own mafia games as reference. Since in Famous Historical Figures, I was more than willing to cannibalize my own teammates to score massive town cred, I tunneled hard. So Blue jumping on Paper with a poor argument was her trying to out a mate to score town cred when I look at the mafiate perspective. I don't expect a less veteran player to be able to reaction bait successfully. And that's where the fact that experience translates across personas comes into play.
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I believe you missed the part where I said I was working on more stuff that I hadn't been able to get to yet.
As far as to why I outed Iso, I get the feeling you are way overthinking my reasoning and trying to make a mountain of an anthill. I don't really see it as helping the mafia or the town, just cutting down on the confusion and random speculation from the people who don't know about who is that mysterious girl in the deep blue tunic.
I outed Iso as Miss Blue because:
1. I didn't read where she said she didn't want to be outed.
2. He has already claimed to be Miss Blue in other games, so it's not really a secret.
3. With people knowing he is a gimmick and wondering about it out load I figured people should know who Miss Blue is since I and probably more than a few others like Asenion and Void know who Miss Blue really is from other games.
Paper - what changed between these two posts with regard to your stance on Blue? What do you think of her analysis of your initial vote on her?
You switched your vote from Blue to TK with no explanation as to why it was coming off of Blue and you didn't respond to any of the discussion between these two posts about you.
Town Win % = 75%
Mafia Win % = 75%
Overall Win % = 75%
Completed Game Log
2014: Best Mafia Performance (Group)
2014: Most Improved Player
2014: Best Town Player
2014: Best Overall Player
If you don't like the sides of arguments I'm on, explaining why will help show which sides of the arguments you find convincing. The only thing we really know about your views on any player in this game thus far is that I'm your top suspect.
I'd like to see more Asenion content. With regard to me because I have nothing specific to respond to; but also about other players. Right now you've given one read and then talked about how little content the game has had so far - and I disagree - there's plenty to discuss right now.
Town Win % = 75%
Mafia Win % = 75%
Overall Win % = 75%
Completed Game Log
2014: Best Mafia Performance (Group)
2014: Most Improved Player
2014: Best Town Player
2014: Best Overall Player
DCIII, yes my content has been terrible. I basically started playing yesterday. Why do you want to respond to a case so badly? I'm not putting any significant pressure on you right now. You should just be ignoring me unless you are worried I actually found something.
There is plenty to discuss, but most of the discussion so far hasn't been super relevant to scum hunting.
My cube: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/9981
Muse is leaning Scum read for me.
Asenion - most people are ignoring you because you aren't saying much. I want to hear more about what you think about the game. That can manifest itself however you want. I'm not worried about it being related to me. My opinions on the game right now are out there as well as why I think that way; yours aren't - and you're really the only player I have virtually no opinion on right now as a result.
So I'd like to form an opinion.
Town Win % = 75%
Mafia Win % = 75%
Overall Win % = 75%
Completed Game Log
2014: Best Mafia Performance (Group)
2014: Most Improved Player
2014: Best Town Player
2014: Best Overall Player
@TK: I don't see how I misinterpreted you unless your definition of lurker/active lurker is different from mine? Lurkers are people who don't post much (sometimes with the requirement that they're also viewing the thread), while active lurkers are people that post but don't actually post relevant information, they're just trying to look useful. I mean, neither of them are particularly useful but I don't really think lurkers are scummy, although they're certainly not helping the town.
Also the gut reaction remark wasn't aimed at anything you said, it was something I said about my read.
Fighting is still town
@Cythare: Why do you like Idle's logic?
@iRebel: If only three people attacked you for your logic, do you think those three are town? Do you think it's possible they're scum trying to push a wagon? I think it's odd you jumped specifically to the conclusion that
I think it's a little odd that Asenion has nothing to say but at the same time I don't think this is something mafia would do unless it was a gambit specifically designed to elicit this sort of thinking.
At the time it made sense to me. Other discussion has since shown otherwise, but when I read #72, it made sense to me, because I felt like there had to be something more to it than just Guardman not reading Blue Electric's request not to be outed as noted here:
Draft my cube! (630 cards)
Seeing as finding the post in question that this is a reference to requires effort on my behalf, I must ask you to direct me to it.
Noted, Mister Rebel. ^^
Now that we know the difference, however...fair enough.
As stated, if Mister Dog were part of the mafia, then the mafia would already know my identity. Additionally, it seems like a giant overreaction to Mister Dog's post, and an opportunistic vote at best. The push is weak.
This post is entirely self-conscious and reeks of Mister Paper and Mister Muse being mafia-aligned together.
Unvote, Vote Mister Rebel
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@Mister Cythare: I simply see it as indicative of Mister Dog being lazy.
I think you are wrong and need to express stronger opinions than this, as you know quite well that there is much to be gleaned from early game posts.
Given that you effectively strawmanned my case against Mister Paper - in that you only focused on one non-contingent factor of it - ...yes. ^^
Is it that your team will be Nightkilling me, Miss FIGHTING?
Why?
Based on what, the scattershot method she is employing? Please tell me more on why asking good questions makes a player town-aligned.
I have a rough time on Day 1 and I've played very few low power or simple games. I normally dissect the set-up in this stage of the game and try to figure out how to use my role, but there isn't really anything to discuss about it here.
My cube: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/9981
Sounds like our definitions line up. That's why I'm willing to lynch active lurkers Day 1, but I'll wait for lurkers. If lurkers continue to be problematic through the game, because of the anti-town nature of lurking, I end up getting willing to lynch them.
The reason I quoted the gut thing was because the question you asked about my sudden flip on Blue, where I had a gut reaction, which is something that I only trust with people I know. Just like you.
Mafia Stats
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Not sure what you're getting at by painting it that way, but I thought that it was pretty clear that I was looking for your opinion on the game and other players in it and not just me.
If you want a specific question, I'd like to know what you think of iRebel, PaperBlade, and Guardman.
Town Win % = 75%
Mafia Win % = 75%
Overall Win % = 75%
Completed Game Log
2014: Best Mafia Performance (Group)
2014: Most Improved Player
2014: Best Town Player
2014: Best Overall Player
The part you quoted from yourself is similar to the argument that I've made.
Blue has said she interpreted it as Guardman being lazy and Guardman has said that he only read the shorter posts, not the walls of text. Have you played with Guardman enough to know if that's typical/do you find that believable?
Town Win % = 75%
Mafia Win % = 75%
Overall Win % = 75%
Completed Game Log
2014: Best Mafia Performance (Group)
2014: Most Improved Player
2014: Best Town Player
2014: Best Overall Player
Sure, it's possible, but I think it is unlikely because they're naturally going to come under the microscope toMorrow if I were to be lynched toDay, and I don't see scum buddies tying themselves together so closely like that.
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@ FIGHTING:
1. I wasn't "expecting" OMGUS, but it would not have shocked me.
2. I liked the Eevee reference for providing supporting evidence of what she was saying.
=====
Game 6 tonight! LET'S GO SOX!
UUU Azami, Lady of Scrolls
RRR Diaochan, Artful Beauty
UR(U/R) Tibor, Lumia, & Melek (WIP)
Mafia Stats
I have played with him a few times before, but never paid attention to his reading/catch-up style. I can definitely see glossing over walls of text if you want to catch up quickly (I've done this before myself), but I'm more skeptical of proclaiming someone Town this early on in the game while doing so.
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is also a distinct possibility. Pursuing this avenue further isn't really going to get anywhere, so I'll just stop pursuing it and keep an eye on Guardman.
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How do you feel about Blue now? I don't really have any sense of where you stand on most things. I have a better sense on you than I do of Asenion, but not by much.
Can you elaborate on this? Miss Blue already asked this, but what makes FIGHTING town?
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I agree with this and should rephrase the purpose of my previous question because I wasn't meaning to ask if you found it believable that he didn't read all of her text - it's not just that he didn't read the walls of text; it's that he labeled Blue town while also saying that she was using questionable logic to form a case without reading all of her content. I have made previous arguments about why I find that suspicious both of itself and in the context of what was going on, and don't find it to be very believable that a player as experienced as Guardman would be prone to make assertions like that without knowing all of the stances of that player.
Blue read him as being lazy, which is why I wanted to ask you (and anyone else, for that matter, who's played with him before is welcome to chime in) if that seems consistent with his play style (that he'd voice an opinion as town about a player's alignment without reading all of that player's content due to the content being cumbersome).
Town Win % = 75%
Mafia Win % = 75%
Overall Win % = 75%
Completed Game Log
2014: Best Mafia Performance (Group)
2014: Most Improved Player
2014: Best Town Player
2014: Best Overall Player
My cube: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/9981
What about iRebel?
More people should be saying things.
Rezombied, what are some of your reads right now?
Town Win % = 75%
Mafia Win % = 75%
Overall Win % = 75%
Completed Game Log
2014: Best Mafia Performance (Group)
2014: Most Improved Player
2014: Best Town Player
2014: Best Overall Player
Mafia Stats
Kill shot: BB
Issue with my shooting? Please visit my helpdesk and help me learn to aim!
Sometimes I can channel the spirit of kpaca and tell stuff from one post. I am good like that.
On more good news everyone Asenion is currently Asenion. So for all those afraid he was a lizard person...
But in other news after rereading and such...
Vote Idle
I haven't found a post I've liked of his. But I keep coming back to this post in particular. His initial attack on Muse is weird because everytime I read his post it feels more like he should be placing his vote on paper than not. And I don't really understand his explanation since it doesn't seem to jive with what he said. He is not convinced by Paper's explanation and then goes on to point out it's in the rules and says that there were other votes to show how it's done, but then says he doesn't find it scummy.
He is building up these points against Paper. And he is clearly attacking Paper. But he puts nothing behind what he says. It's an attack without commitment.
His explanation when questioned by DC also doesn't jive with what he said in the post above, since he claims he was confused and wanted to get to the truth of it and that he was never suspicious of Paper. But given where he explains how Paper should not not know (double negative) how voting is done, I don't really see the confusion.
UUU Azami, Lady of Scrolls
RRR Diaochan, Artful Beauty
UR(U/R) Tibor, Lumia, & Melek (WIP)
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To drunk to play the game? (Sox won for those who don't know)
More to come later when I have the time.
I'm still drunk lololol
UUU Azami, Lady of Scrolls
RRR Diaochan, Artful Beauty
UR(U/R) Tibor, Lumia, & Melek (WIP)
Mafia Stats
YAY SOX
I wish I was still drunk but I had some critical work projects to finish today, so I had to rein it in.
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I would be thanking this post if it was allowed. Made me snort a little.
I didn't realize this was a question. I don't know, though. Guardman isn't that easy to pin early on, but I'm always skeptical of people proclaiming someone else town early on based on a small percentage of their content.
I agree on Guardman, but define "impact". Your only content so far has been statements that there isn't enough content and saying that people haven't made an impression on you, and you've only stated the latter when asked a direct question. I'd love to see something from you that isn't active lurking.
I haven't seen you pin people like this before, so pardon me if I stay skeptical of your ability.
On Asenion, I'm not sure that qualifies as "good news".
Idle's initial attack was weak, but given that the whole basis of the initial wagon on Paper began with the syntax argument (which was weak), I didn't find this post to be an issue by itself, especially since he's a newer player.
This post, on the other hand, is a good catch, as it is backtracking on a previous statement. I still feel more strongly about iRebel but going back through Idle Muse's posts is on the short list.
On a related note, Guardman, what are your thoughts on iRebel? If you've already addressed this, let me know.
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vote paperblade
Blue's town. TK is paper's buddy.
I agree with some of your stances re: Blue and Paper (though I wouldn't ever completely write Blue off as town) but can you walk me through your reasoning here on all points? I'm not following your train of thought.
Also, did you read iRebel more like you said you needed to and, if so, what did you conclude?
Town Win % = 75%
Mafia Win % = 75%
Overall Win % = 75%
Completed Game Log
2014: Best Mafia Performance (Group)
2014: Most Improved Player
2014: Best Town Player
2014: Best Overall Player
I did not reread iRebel yet though. I guess I can do that too.
Nothing to influence my read on his alignment.
The truth is, without a set-up to analyze I have no idea what to do on Day 1. I've never played a Basic. The only times I've been in basic complexity games I've either replaced in later or replaced out after losing all motivation.
The discussions so far are over who is what gimmicks, past experience, and RVS tells. None of those things really influence my reads.
I need to see a flip, learn something about someone's role, have a reason to defend myself, or have an objective before I start getting into it I think.
My cube: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/9981
Anyway, I came into the paper/blue situation thinking that paper had made a harmless mistake and that blue was pouncing opportunistically on said mistake. However, after questioning blue for the entire Day so far I think that blue was simply looking at the situation from different perspective. When I take away this piece of contention, everything else points to blue being town.
Now, that doesn't automatically mean that paper is scum. I still feel that the lynch instead of vote thing is null. However, there is plenty more to look at.
Most of this has been covered already but I'll reiterate:
-Paper's reasoning for the void vote
-Paper voting blue while saying that blue's reasoning was a "paranoid conspiracy theory." That's a scumslip, boys (and girl). Additionally,I don't usually sling OMGUS around (people overuse the term for any form of countervoting, when it really is a much narrower definition) but when the reasoning is this bad it looks like it.
-Barning and buddying me. I'm not sure why he picked me for this but hey, there you go. I haven't done anything this game so it's particularly suspect. He ended up voting TK based on a question I asked him rather than any case.
That brings me to TK. I'll actually quote the post for you:
I cut out the first part of the post, which is also problematic but not what I care about right now.
Watch what he does in this post. Paper's under pressure. Scumbuddy TK acknowledges this pressure, even adds some superfluous reasoning... but spins this into a blue vote.
"I still don't like paper, but"
And then a vote on Blue, whose wagon was already about four votes deep.
Later on, after I question him on his logic, he backs off, citing the Blue = Iso thing.
But..... no revote on Paper. I think at this point he was trying to see if the pressure would dissipate.
He still hasn't voted despite explicitly naming paper as a scum suspect (later on).
QED. Join me on the glorious paperblade wagon.
Town Win % = 75%
Mafia Win % = 75%
Overall Win % = 75%
Completed Game Log
2014: Best Mafia Performance (Group)
2014: Most Improved Player
2014: Best Town Player
2014: Best Overall Player
Thanks. That's the answer I was looking for.
I'll join the paper wagon when I very well feel like it and will not be bullied into it before I am ready. I have my own reasons for voting blue when and how I did. I will have my own reasons for voting Paper when the time comes.
I do find that you're backing off of Blue because of an understanding of perspective being acceptable while my backing off of Blue because of an understanding of perspective being unacceptable quite quaint. Please reconcile.
Mafia Stats
Kill shot: BB
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Yes, we both changed our perspectives. I changed from the perspective of "There's no way blue could ever think that" to "it's actually reasonable that blue could have thought that."
You changed from "blue is an inexperienced player" to "blue is an experienced player."
I see you trying to push easy wagons and letting off steam when you learned they weren't so easy.
As for paper, I appreciate that you're trying to cast me as a bully but you still aren't voting anybody right now. Why so vote-shy when you have specifically stated that paper is a suspect?
I'm talking myself into a TK lynch over paper right now.
@EtR: Please take note.
No, I went from "Blue is someone I have no idea about" to "Blue is someone that I spend large amounts of time conversing with and know well." I'm not going to proclaim that I've got the mystical Soul Read™ on Blue, but it does give me the unique perspective to be willing to just drop off Blue for the revelation.
However, considering that Paper seems to be an easy lynch, why would I not go for it? Because he's my buddy? Hardly, I'm always glad to lynch my buddies. So much so that it seems to get me day-killed on Day 1 every time. My own meta suggests that Blue is actually my buddy, and not paper, if I am mafia. I am not however.
Again, I will vote paper when I believe it to be correct. I am always vote shy, and use my vote as a marker of those I am fairly confident in being mafia. Just because someone is my top suspect, does not place them into voting range. I could read EVERYONE as town, but by necessary definition, someone will be my top suspect. Conversely, one could be my top suspect, and within the comfortable range of suspicion to vote, and one little bit of information drops them down enough to no longer be vote worthy (and my top suspect).
Mafia Stats
Kill shot: BB
Issue with my shooting? Please visit my helpdesk and help me learn to aim!