I still think Guardman is scum, his recent post which was attacking my early posts re: Paperblade comes off OMGUSsy to me. The main criticism he seems to have of me is that I was undecided and vague about attacking Paper super early in the game and not putting my vote on him; to explain, I was just getting into the game, having not played for a long time, and hesitant to vote when my own opinions weren't yet well-formed. I hate playing the inexperienced card since I feel I've read enough to have a strong understanding of the game, but in this instance, what held me back from actually voting WAS the inexperience in using my vote and associated hesitance to do so given that I was more simply confused about Paper's actions than outright suspicious that they came from a scum motivation.
First off my attack does not qualify as OMGUS as I am not doing the following:
1. Attacking you for attacking me.
2. Mudslinging so that your positions are discredited through character assassination.
I have actual reasons and examples that don't include me which I am basing a large onus of my reasons for voting you on.
Second your claim of inexperience doesn't explain anything about that post. Inexperience covers things like bad logic or weak behavior. It doesn't cover not voting because you don't trust your opinions enough. That is something else all together. And it still doesn't explain why you were confused or why you lack conviction, when you are clearly stating why you don't like Paper's syntax error and why he should know better.
To give you a clear idea about what I am seeing and subsequently how you are explaining your actions here is an example: I see you holding a carrot, but the reason you didn't eat the carrot is because it was an idea about improving the internal combustion engine.
You changed from "blue is an inexperienced player" to "blue is an experienced player."
I see you trying to push easy wagons and letting off steam when you learned they weren't so easy.
As for paper, I appreciate that you're trying to cast me as a bully but you still aren't voting anybody right now. Why so vote-shy when you have specifically stated that paper is a suspect?
I'm talking myself into a TK lynch over paper right now.
No, I went from "Blue is someone I have no idea about" to "Blue is someone that I spend large amounts of time conversing with and know well." I'm not going to proclaim that I've got the mystical Soul Read™ on Blue, but it does give me the unique perspective to be willing to just drop off Blue for the revelation.
However, considering that Paper seems to be an easy lynch, why would I not go for it? Because he's my buddy? Hardly, I'm always glad to lynch my buddies. So much so that it seems to get me day-killed on Day 1 every time. My own meta suggests that Blue is actually my buddy, and not paper, if I am mafia. I am not however.
Again, I will vote paper when I believe it to be correct. I am always vote shy, and use my vote as a marker of those I am fairly confident in being mafia. Just because someone is my top suspect, does not place them into voting range. I could read EVERYONE as town, but by necessary definition, someone will be my top suspect. Conversely, one could be my top suspect, and within the comfortable range of suspicion to vote, and one little bit of information drops them down enough to no longer be vote worthy (and my top suspect).
Pretty much everything in here is WIFOM and/or useless.
From what I can tell, these are the current suspicions by player (let me know if anything is inaccurate). I don't have a good sense of either iRebel or Rezombied's suspicions.
PaperBlade is the most commonly suspected player but I believe only has one vote right now.
Other players (iRebel and Guardman) have made comments about not liking Paper's play but letting the vote situation sort itself out.
Cythare has questioned him for not knowing many of his views on the game.
I'm unclear about Rez's stance - most recently he asked Blue a question about Paper that seemed to imply skepticism but I couldn't determine anything conclusive from that.
Asenion hasn't taken issue with anything that PaperBlade has done.
My theory on this is that the town players have stronger reads that their votes aren't on him, but that scum are keeping their options open to bus the Paper wagon if it forms since enough players are suspecting him.
My preference is still iRebel but I will also support a PaperBlade lynch today.
No, I went from "Blue is someone I have no idea about" to "Blue is someone that I spend large amounts of time conversing with and know well." I'm not going to proclaim that I've got the mystical Soul Read™ on Blue, but it does give me the unique perspective to be willing to just drop off Blue for the revelation.
However, considering that Paper seems to be an easy lynch, why would I not go for it? Because he's my buddy? Hardly, I'm always glad to lynch my buddies. So much so that it seems to get me day-killed on Day 1 every time. My own meta suggests that Blue is actually my buddy, and not paper, if I am mafia. I am not however.
Again, I will vote paper when I believe it to be correct. I am always vote shy, and use my vote as a marker of those I am fairly confident in being mafia. Just because someone is my top suspect, does not place them into voting range. I could read EVERYONE as town, but by necessary definition, someone will be my top suspect. Conversely, one could be my top suspect, and within the comfortable range of suspicion to vote, and one little bit of information drops them down enough to no longer be vote worthy (and my top suspect).
Pretty much everything in here is WIFOM and/or useless.
Who is your top suspect?
Don't for get the subtle mocking that my posts tend to contain! It wouldn't be playing with me if I didn't maintain some sense of superiority.
I could troll you some more, if you like? I so rarely get to do it, Mafia is my only outlet.
As for the question you asked, Paperblade is still sitting near the top with his conflicting reason of saying that a no lynch vote doesn't get us out of RVS when it did, and was opportunistic jumping on Void for something that again, reads completely differently coming from an experienced player versus an inexperienced player. Perhaps he didn't know Void's experience level, but has he never seen a player do that on the other sites that gave him the habit of his syntax?
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She wants a ride on the pony, dude.
Mafia Stats
Kill shot: BB
Issue with my shooting? Please visit my helpdesk and help me learn to aim!
I so am going to enjoy calling Iso "she" for a whole game!
I have skimmed the thread. You all make big posts
I don't like TK and I think Guardman and Muse are non-aligned.
Of those last two, I lean towards Guardman for scum because he committed my favourite RVS tell (not voting in his first RVS post)
iRebel is not in any meta I am used from him, but I don't want to base conclusions on that; he is still new and is probably still looking for a play-style that works.
A summary of the case against him would help.
Asenion should be left alone on Day one.
I have a few strong townreads, but I prefer keeping those to myself for now.
Of those last two, I lean towards Guardman for scum because he committed my favourite RVS tell (not voting in his first RVS post)
That would work if it wasn't for the fact I almost never vote during the RVS in the first place, regardless of alignment, unless I have a good joke to tell.
I was really negligent using my time last night to respond to the game that is over now instead of this one, sorry. Then life interfered today. I don't know what to say about my mafia choices lately other than my motivation has been low.
I have some notes though and tomorrow after work I'll post a mini-catch up on my thoughts and I should be back to responding to all ongoing conversations from this point. Thanks for replacing in btw Rhand.
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An accurate description of myself:
Quote from Megiddo »
You're the dude who just lies a lot and makes people hate you and then magically becomes town later, right?
Are you trying to take me down with you so that your death is not in veign?
Because I don't care: a 1 for 1 is a very good deal.
I'm not sure who i am voting, so to make sure: unvote, vote TK-421
Vain, and hardly. My death is meaningless. However, what IS important is a read on you. See the below (not DC's quote, but FIGHTING's) for why I was saying it. I had Paper as mafia, and FIGHTING did have us as buddies. But I make it a point to try not to judge a role based on a replaced player. I've had to in past games, but now I can actually push buttons and see how you react. I'm liking the aggressiveness yet reasoning I'm seeing in response. Much better than your predecessor.
iRebel was my primary read, and I'm not that great about pursuing multiple leads at the same time. For other players, Paperblade's play has been bad and I did question him for it, but I would like to see more from Rhand, because it could just be bad play. TK's recent play, though, has pinged my radar, and caused me to go back and review his posts.
52: FIGHTING went into this already. The "I still don't like Paper, but" and spinning it into a Blue vote by saying "and Blue's barning looks worse" is crap. I'm also intrigued why TK "still" doesn't like Paper when it's his first post of the game with content. 53: He then casually smears Void, trying to add a little extra breathing room for Paper. 84: He unvotes Blue after the Big Reveal and then provides some thoughts on three other people, following up with "I think we're just not far enough into the game to get a proper read yet". The only mention of Paper is in context of Blue's stuff which "now makes sense". Paper is never directly referenced here. 114/115: TK finally restates that Paper is one of his suspects for mafia after being asked directly. 158: This post (the second part), just doesn't make sense to me. You were obviously willing to vote Blue before, and now you're not willing to vote Paper now? You say "you had your reasons". Was it because Blue was already four votes deep and you knew he was Town, but Paper is your buddy? You try to spin this back on FIGHTING as being about backing down on Blue when it's really about avoiding voting for one of your "suspects". 161: You state you are "always vote shy", but indicated no such shyness when you voted Blue. You're avoiding lynching your buddy, or maybe trying to somehow make yourself look better if you know Paper's alignment? 169: Now your language changes subtly to indicate that Paper is "sitting near the top" instead of "your top suspect", without any indication of who else you feel is up there. 170: This post reads as completely manufactured. 178/180: These too. 184: "Much better than your predecessor" = "Maybe I don't have to bus my scumbuddy if he acts more like Town!"?
@FIGHTING: Given the way that TK-421 has been dancing around voting Paper/Rhand and his recent stuff, I'd prefer to lynch him over Paper. I could see a scenario where scum!TK-421 is trying to capitalize on town!Paper's bad play, and then upon a town!Paper flip is able to survive scrutiny for "not being as sure about it as others", gaining a mislynch for his team. I don't think lynching Paper toDay is the right call, since scum!TK could be approaching Paper from this angle regardless of Paper's alignment.
TLDR: Lynch TK-421 toDay, then reassess Paper/Rhand toMorrow. iRebel is still a suspect to me, but TK's play reeks.
What TK did makes little sense from a Scum perspective. It would be rather ballsy for him try and gambit a read on a possible Town member that way when the player may not even be a Town PR... let alone Town. But doing that kind of behavior with a Scum buddy make no sense. It garters little to no Town cred.
In other words: TK is a Scum hunting pro with that move.
These three votes will be very telling later in the game.
More votes on iRebel though. He is still more likely to be Scum than anyone else here thus far.
What TK did makes little sense from a Scum perspective. It would be rather ballsy for him try and gambit a read on a possible Town member that way when the player may not even be a Town PR... let alone Town. But doing that kind of behavior with a Scum buddy make no sense. It garters little to no Town cred.
In other words: TK is a Scum hunting pro with that move.
These three votes will be very telling later in the game.
More votes on iRebel though. He is still more likely to be Scum than anyone else here thus far.
He just created a ton of WIFOM and could have pressed Rhand just as easily without implicating himself.
You say there are no benefits to scum - but you're looking at him more favorably now saying that he's a scum hunting pro - so if he's scum, that's a benefit. Also, if he is scum and so is Rhand, there's now WIFOM around whether or not he'd so openly out his buddy.
There are tons of negatives if he's town. One, it just provided a huge distraction and I suspect him now where previously he wasn't in my top three. So if he is town, he's taken focus away from other areas when he could have just started pressing Rhand in a different way.
I'm also now wondering why you say that his play makes little sense from a scum perspective. You're saying that the votes on him will be telling later indicating that you think those votes are suspicious, while I think it's suspicious that you'd intervene and try to steer votes away from him, especially if you do think the votes are suspicious because, if so, wouldn't you want to wait to see who else placed a vote? - so there are all kinds of additional layers to have to wade through now.
If someone implies that they're scum, I'm going to believe them. Not something to bluff with.
What TK did makes little sense from a Scum perspective. It would be rather ballsy for him try and gambit a read on a possible Town member that way when the player may not even be a Town PR... let alone Town. But doing that kind of behavior with a Scum buddy make no sense. It garters little to no Town cred.
In other words: TK is a Scum hunting pro with that move.
These three votes will be very telling later in the game.
More votes on iRebel though. He is still more likely to be Scum than anyone else here thus far.
He just created a ton of WIFOM and could have pressed Rhand just as easily without implicating himself.
You say there are no benefits to scum - but you're looking at him more favorably now saying that he's a scum hunting pro - so if he's scum, that's a benefit. Also, if he is scum and so is Rhand, there's now WIFOM around whether or not he'd so openly out his buddy.
There are tons of negatives if he's town. One, it just provided a huge distraction and I suspect him now where previously he wasn't in my top three. So if he is town, he's taken focus away from other areas when he could have just started pressing Rhand in a different way.
I'm also now wondering why you say that his play makes little sense from a scum perspective. You're saying that the votes on him will be telling later indicating that you think those votes are suspicious, while I think it's suspicious that you'd intervene and try to steer votes away from him, especially if you do think the votes are suspicious because, if so, wouldn't you want to wait to see who else placed a vote? - so there are all kinds of additional layers to have to wade through now.
If someone implies that they're scum, I'm going to believe them. Not something to bluff with.
I like this guy.
Also, @Void - what do you mean by "on a possible Town member"? If TK is scum, he will have more information by knowing who his buddies are (unless you're suggesting that he may hit a neutral?).
Also, TK has already stated in thread that he will begin bussing buddies early:
However, considering that Paper seems to be an easy lynch, why would I not go for it? Because he's my buddy? Hardly, I'm always glad to lynch my buddies. So much so that it seems to get me day-killed on Day 1 every time. My own meta suggests that Blue is actually my buddy, and not paper, if I am mafia. I am not however.
What TK did makes little sense from a Scum perspective. It would be rather ballsy for him try and gambit a read on a possible Town member that way when the player may not even be a Town PR... let alone Town. But doing that kind of behavior with a Scum buddy make no sense. It garters little to no Town cred.
In other words: TK is a Scum hunting pro with that move.
These three votes will be very telling later in the game.
More votes on iRebel though. He is still more likely to be Scum than anyone else here thus far.
He just created a ton of WIFOM and could have pressed Rhand just as easily without implicating himself.
You say there are no benefits to scum - but you're looking at him more favorably now saying that he's a scum hunting pro - so if he's scum, that's a benefit. Also, if he is scum and so is Rhand, there's now WIFOM around whether or not he'd so openly out his buddy.
There are tons of negatives if he's town. One, it just provided a huge distraction and I suspect him now where previously he wasn't in my top three. So if he is town, he's taken focus away from other areas when he could have just started pressing Rhand in a different way.
I'm also now wondering why you say that his play makes little sense from a scum perspective. You're saying that the votes on him will be telling later indicating that you think those votes are suspicious, while I think it's suspicious that you'd intervene and try to steer votes away from him, especially if you do think the votes are suspicious because, if so, wouldn't you want to wait to see who else placed a vote? - so there are all kinds of additional layers to have to wade through now.
If someone implies that they're scum, I'm going to believe them. Not something to bluff with.
1) If TK Scum, then, yes, he got me to Town read him for that post towards Rhand.
2) What motivation does a Scum member have for making posts like those? Seriously, TK got VOTES for pulling that stunt. That right there speaks volumes about his post.
1) If TK Scum, then, yes, he got me to Town read him for that post towards Rhand.
2) What motivation does a Scum member have for making posts like those? Seriously, TK got VOTES for pulling that stunt. That right there speaks volumes about his post.
I know this was @DCII, but seriously? Your reasoning that he isn't scum is because he got voted for posting it?
EBWODP: I now realize that Void may just be talking about the most recent couple posts. While I still don't think they look great (they look to me like they could come from either alignment as they seem forced and manufactured, not witty), I for some reason thought you were referring to his overall play as referenced in my post.
2) What motivation does a Scum member have for making posts like those? Seriously, TK got VOTES for pulling that stunt. That right there speaks volumes about his post.
TK wasn't a non-suspect. FIGHTING has been pushing he and Paper hard and if you look at my suspicion list, he cropped up quite a bit, along with Paper and Fighting was linking the two.
His conclusion from his post was that he liked the way that Rhand was responding to pressure as opposed to Paper... so it could be a gambit to clear both. Or, it could just be a gambit to clear himself by having people think that he wouldn't make a post like that as scum, like you did.
He didn't press Paper hard despite saying he was his top suspect (and recently made a post saying that FIGHTING had been distracting him from doing so). So, he could be more comfortable with the way Rhand would respond to pressure as opposed to how he thought Paper would have. Notice how his play changed as soon as Paper replaced out.
It's complete WIFOM and making a blatant play like that that would draw votes can just as easily be refuted with "would I really do that if I were scum?"
Plus, it now casts doubt elsewhere that there wasn't previously (you on those voting for him, me on you for defending him).
I see plenty of possible scum motivations with or without Rhand as a buddy.
Void - if you thought TK was genuinely doing a good job of scumhunting, why wouldn't you have let that ride a little bit longer to see who else joined the wagon?
Void - if you thought TK was genuinely doing a good job of scumhunting, why wouldn't you have let that ride a little bit longer to see who else joined the wagon?
Oh, sorry, I didn't realize that 3 votes wasn't enough.
To further address the TK posting: How long would you expect a Scum TK to last for after making that post? If TK is Scum with Rhand or Paperblade or FIGHTING then it will come out in the wash. The interaction, by itself, is weird enough that if any of those 3 flip Scum, then TK will be a likely Scum buddy and get lots of pressure for it. At this point TK is a better Vig target than he is a lynch target, but that doesn't matter since TK is Town.
Call it WIFOM if you like too, but there is more to it than just chopping it short like you are DCIII.
Void - if you thought TK was genuinely doing a good job of scumhunting, why wouldn't you have let that ride a little bit longer to see who else joined the wagon?
Oh, sorry, I didn't realize that 3 votes wasn't enough.
To further address the TK posting: How long would you expect a Scum TK to last for after making that post? If TK is Scum with Rhand or Paperblade or FIGHTING then it will come out in the wash. The interaction, by itself, is weird enough that if any of those 3 flip Scum, then TK will be a likely Scum buddy and get lots of pressure for it. At this point TK is a better Vig target than he is a lynch target, but that doesn't matter since TK is Town.
Call it WIFOM if you like too, but there is more to it than just chopping it short like you are DCIII.
You dismiss it with sarcasm but, yes. One vote was already there (Rhand's was a re-vote) and there were only two others. It's not like there's a chance he would have been quick lynched - why not see what else happened if it was an effective play to scum hunt?
Also, why would it come out in the wash for FIGHTING? To my knowledge, she hasn't been suspected. Blue did ask her off-handedly if she was going to NK her. Otherwise, I haven't seen anyone say anything alleging that she was scum. Also, either of those three? PaperBlade and Rhand are the same player so it's only two others.
Isn't part of your argument that it's unlikely that TK would make that play as scum, especially if Rhand is scum? So if Rhand is scum, why would that then come out in the wash for TK?
And walk me through why TK would be a better vig target than lynch target if he's the one who indicated that he was scum. Wouldn't he be dead either way if the shot was successful? This way, it wouldn't be preventable by any other course of action.
FIGHTING - why no comment on the TK situation when he was one of your top two reads prior to the recent chicanery?
because I forgot that I was supposed to cook dinner tonight and had to run to the grocery store.
I'll be back later evening, but for now I'll say that I find TK making stupid gambit posts to be fairly null. TK making a stupid gambit does not make him scum. It also doesn't make him town either, especially because he's already demonstrated awareness of his meta tells in this game.
So, I'm kind of just ignoring it. If you want to analyse TK's post there, look at Rhand's reaction instead.
Please do not count Rhand's vote as the same as Paperblade. They are not the same player. It's only convenient that Rhand happened to vote for TK as well.
Coming out of the wash doesn't mean someone is guaranteed to flip Scum. It simply means that everything will make sense in the end. At least that is how I have view that term. As for FIGHTING: She will come out in the wash as well since she is mentioned by TK in that weird exchange.
As for TK being a better Vig shot is because his alignment could be anything at this point. The last few posts from TK cement this. I would much rather lynch someone who is more likely to be Scum then the off chance that an unknown is Town.
Please tell me, DCIII, why do you believe that TK is Scum for his posting if you believe the entire exchange to WIFOM?
Please do not count Rhand's vote as the same as Paperblade. They are not the same player. It's only convenient that Rhand happened to vote for TK as well.
Coming out of the wash doesn't mean someone is guaranteed to flip Scum. It simply means that everything will make sense in the end. At least that is how I have view that term. As for FIGHTING: She will come out in the wash as well since she is mentioned by TK in that weird exchange.
As for TK being a better Vig shot is because his alignment could be anything at this point. The last few posts from TK cement this. I would much rather lynch someone who is more likely to be Scum then the off chance that an unknown is Town.
Please tell me, DCIII, why do you believe that TK is Scum for his posting if you believe the entire exchange to WIFOM?
It comes from the same player in the game, though their reasoning might be different. It was still only three votes. More could have be gleaned if it was a viable strategy.
As for FIGHTING - why does TK mentioning her in that exchange mean she'll come out in the wash? Everything will always make sense in the end of a game of mafia. How does TK's mentioning her in that exchange relate to how she'll shake out in your opinion?
You say TK's alignment could be anything at this point but in the previous post you declared him Town.
You also say I believe the entire exchange to be WIFOM which is inaccurate. I think that he intentionally attempted to create WIFOM, which is what scum try to do. I already outlined why his play could be beneficial for scum and why it's certainly detrimental if he's town.
Also, I'll go ahead and state here and in any future games that I'm in that if someone implies or outright states that they're scum, I'm going to believe them and they will have my vote until one of us is dead. Not something that someone should be able to use to wriggle out of a situation as scum and, at best, a WIFOM inducing and detrimental play from town.
You also say I believe the entire exchange to be WIFOM which is inaccurate. I think that he intentionally attempted to create WIFOM, which is what scum try to do. I already outlined why his play could be beneficial for scum and why it's certainly detrimental if he's town.
It's complete WIFOM and making a blatant play like that that would draw votes can just as easily be refuted with "would I really do that if I were scum?"
You also say I believe the entire exchange to be WIFOM which is inaccurate. I think that he intentionally attempted to create WIFOM, which is what scum try to do. I already outlined why his play could be beneficial for scum and why it's certainly detrimental if he's town.
It's complete WIFOM and making a blatant play like that that would draw votes can just as easily be refuted with "would I really do that if I were scum?"
I'm going to leave this here for now.
Yes. I was stating that the impact and intent of TK's statement was to spin WIFOM. Not that everything about the entire situation is WIFOM. Let's look at the full quote:
2) What motivation does a Scum member have for making posts like those? Seriously, TK got VOTES for pulling that stunt. That right there speaks volumes about his post.
TK wasn't a non-suspect. FIGHTING has been pushing he and Paper hard and if you look at my suspicion list, he cropped up quite a bit, along with Paper and Fighting was linking the two.
His conclusion from his post was that he liked the way that Rhand was responding to pressure as opposed to Paper... so it could be a gambit to clear both. Or, it could just be a gambit to clear himself by having people think that he wouldn't make a post like that as scum, like you did.
He didn't press Paper hard despite saying he was his top suspect (and recently made a post saying that FIGHTING had been distracting him from doing so). So, he could be more comfortable with the way Rhand would respond to pressure as opposed to how he thought Paper would have. Notice how his play changed as soon as Paper replaced out.
It's complete WIFOM and making a blatant play like that that would draw votes can just as easily be refuted with "would I really do that if I were scum?"
Plus, it now casts doubt elsewhere that there wasn't previously (you on those voting for him, me on you for defending him).
I see plenty of possible scum motivations with or without Rhand as a buddy.
Void - if you thought TK was genuinely doing a good job of scumhunting, why wouldn't you have let that ride a little bit longer to see who else joined the wagon?
The point of my quote there is very clearly to say that TK has motivation to and is intentionally creating WIFOM, not to say that the entire situation is WIFOM and can't be discerned.
You're cherry picking.
Also, you said that TK is town, but that he'd be a better vig target than lynch target and clarified later that it's because his alignment could be anything at this point in the below two:
As for TK being a better Vig shot is because his alignment could be anything at this point.
Please reconcile this mindset for me. If you're confident that TK is town as a result of his actions, why would you say that his alignment could be anything at this point? If you're confident that he's town, why would you bring up the idea of a vig on him altogether? Why not just say he's not a good lynch target because he's town?
You're arguing from a place of what you think will be convincing, not from one of also being in the dark.
If you're town and you're that confident enough that TK is town that you're willing to jump in to defend him like this, then you'd be thinking "TK is town, we should focus the lynch elsewhere because he's not scum." The idea of him being a better vig target wouldn't occur to you because, at that point, you would feel confident in his alignment and wouldn't throw out new ideas on ways he could die only to say "but that doesn't matter since (he's) town." The idea of him being a better vig target than lynch target is from a mindset of how to appeal to someone to get them off of a lynch now, but it overlooks the mindset that you're already convinced that he's town.
TK: I just checked your blog because I wanted to see if that kind of ballsy play is something you're capable of in both alignments.
Were you Captain Tzymo in FHF? oO
Because, well, I must say your play has most certainly improved then
I was Captain Tzymo! My incentive to screw with FIGHTING? Because I can! I found it humorous that we (well, paper, not you) were being tied together. I'm naturally sarcastic and have a bit of a superiority complex. While a few people had listed me as a suspect, FIGHTING had a silly argument trying to make a tie about me not voting after having voted Blue. Plus, as a mod (and a global at that) I'm expected to maintain a certain decorum around the forums. But in mafia, I can let the claws come out As for my weird way of gauging people, you'll find I'm generally pretty weird.
If someone implies that they're scum, I'm going to believe them. Not something to bluff with.
Fun fact: I learned this from the great Nai in Modfia 4. I no longer remember whether he was mafia or town, but I do remember that the discussion generated by it was great for hashing out who to go after. (I do remember at the time, I held the same view as you.) However, I know following this train of thought will leave you disappointed.
However, considering that Paper seems to be an easy lynch, why would I not go for it? Because he's my buddy? Hardly, I'm always glad to lynch my buddies. So much so that it seems to get me day-killed on Day 1 every time. My own meta suggests that Blue is actually my buddy, and not paper, if I am mafia. I am not however.
Ah, but you see, there's a difference between bussing and outting. No, if Rhand and I were legitimately buddies, I would actually have some kind of case against him instead of fumbling around with the case about voting Void for his RVS no lynch.
Anyway, DCIII, is it bad for there to be doubts on those who didn't have them? Let's say we're at the conclusion of this debate of whether mafia!TK would post something like this. In the mean time, we've now learned a lot about you, Void, Cythare, FIGHTING, Rhand and even me! HALF the players will have given their opinions. And that's assuming others don't join in. Since behavioral analysis is such a vital component, being able to provide such a large swath of targets is actually GOOD for the town.
By the time this is done, we could get to the point where half the town is proven Town. That makes it REALLY hard for the mafia to win. Or let's go the opposite direction. We suss out that there's actually 3 mafia within our discussion and we find them. Again, REALLY hard for the mafia to win. Ok, things aren't usually so cut and dried. Maybe there's only one or two in our discussion. We find them, and then start going through POE on the other 6.
tl;dr, painting a bull's-eye on your back can be perfectly townie because of the way it causes those around you to react.
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She wants a ride on the pony, dude.
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You changed from "blue is an inexperienced player" to "blue is an experienced player."
I see you trying to push easy wagons and letting off steam when you learned they weren't so easy.
As for paper, I appreciate that you're trying to cast me as a bully but you still aren't voting anybody right now. Why so vote-shy when you have specifically stated that paper is a suspect?
I'm talking myself into a TK lynch over paper right now.
No, I went from "Blue is someone I have no idea about" to "Blue is someone that I spend large amounts of time conversing with and know well." I'm not going to proclaim that I've got the mystical Soul Read™ on Blue, but it does give me the unique perspective to be willing to just drop off Blue for the revelation.
In fairness, Mister TK, you do not know me THAT well.
Good response, but do you think FIGHTING will buy it?
Perhaps Miss FIGHTING was on to something - I merely shrugged your poor play off as inexperience, which is making me doubt my paranoia of Miss FIGHTING. Ugh, the decisions that have to be made in Mafia.
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Mister Cythare, you could not have timed your jump on to Mister TK at a worse time. I can not stand it when such things obfuscate my reads.
I was going to make mention that I would much rather pursue iRebel in light of this awful, WIFOM-laden development, yet it seems Mister Void has beaten me to it, so I have no issue distributing further town points to him. Not that I needed any help reading Mister Void to begin with.
TK: I just checked your blog because I wanted to see if that kind of ballsy play is something you're capable of in both alignments.
Were you Captain Tzymo in FHF? oO
Because, well, I must say your play has most certainly improved then
Do you think so? Because I can not say I necessarily feel the same way, at least not in light of how he handled the event of you replacing into this game, Mister Rhand.
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Mister Cythare, why have you seemingly only been invested in this game as of recently? How do you feel about Mister Dog at present?
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I am in favor of Mister Rhand providing full reads thus far.
I have what I believe is a relatively solid town block, and I will share a full reads list, myself, once Mister Rhand has provided his own.
Yeah, I did say I didn't have the soul read on you or else it would have been apparent to me from the beginning who you were. But the fact that I can put myself into your mindset now helps. Doesn't mean I trust you further than I trust a royal vizier, though.
Also, thanks for actually doing the work and looking (or remembering) that game.
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She wants a ride on the pony, dude.
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I knew that Modfia 4 had the mason pair flavored as me and parinoid as bronies, but had forgotten who had been us. Hilariously, YOU replaced the other person to claim mafia that game.
I'll stop distracting your catch up now!
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Post #91 is what gave me my leaning Scum read on Idle. The posts after his prod give me more reason to believe Idle is Scum this game.
Paperblade
will be prodded at 3PMhas been prodded.First off my attack does not qualify as OMGUS as I am not doing the following:
1. Attacking you for attacking me.
2. Mudslinging so that your positions are discredited through character assassination.
I have actual reasons and examples that don't include me which I am basing a large onus of my reasons for voting you on.
Second your claim of inexperience doesn't explain anything about that post. Inexperience covers things like bad logic or weak behavior. It doesn't cover not voting because you don't trust your opinions enough. That is something else all together. And it still doesn't explain why you were confused or why you lack conviction, when you are clearly stating why you don't like Paper's syntax error and why he should know better.
To give you a clear idea about what I am seeing and subsequently how you are explaining your actions here is an example: I see you holding a carrot, but the reason you didn't eat the carrot is because it was an idea about improving the internal combustion engine.
Who is your top suspect?
DCIII - iRebel, PaperBlade, Guardman
Blue - iRebel, PaperBlade, Idle Muse
Idle Muse - Guardman, PaperBlade, TK
FIGHTING - PaperBlade, TK
Guardman - Idle Muse
Cythare - iRebel
Void - iRebel, Idle Muse, PaperBlade
Paperblade - TK
TK - PaperBlade
Asenion - DCIII
iRebel - ?
Rezombied - ?
PaperBlade is the most commonly suspected player but I believe only has one vote right now.
Other players (iRebel and Guardman) have made comments about not liking Paper's play but letting the vote situation sort itself out.
Cythare has questioned him for not knowing many of his views on the game.
I'm unclear about Rez's stance - most recently he asked Blue a question about Paper that seemed to imply skepticism but I couldn't determine anything conclusive from that.
Asenion hasn't taken issue with anything that PaperBlade has done.
My theory on this is that the town players have stronger reads that their votes aren't on him, but that scum are keeping their options open to bus the Paper wagon if it forms since enough players are suspecting him.
My preference is still iRebel but I will also support a PaperBlade lynch today.
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2014: Most Improved Player
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Don't for get the subtle mocking that my posts tend to contain! It wouldn't be playing with me if I didn't maintain some sense of superiority.
I could troll you some more, if you like? I so rarely get to do it, Mafia is my only outlet.
As for the question you asked, Paperblade is still sitting near the top with his conflicting reason of saying that a no lynch vote doesn't get us out of RVS when it did, and was opportunistic jumping on Void for something that again, reads completely differently coming from an experienced player versus an inexperienced player. Perhaps he didn't know Void's experience level, but has he never seen a player do that on the other sites that gave him the habit of his syntax?
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@Paperblade: At the other places you've played, what would you say your level of experience is? Played many games?
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Woo EDH league
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Initiate Replacement Search Sequence.
Please give him a warm welcome.
I am in
I have skimmed the thread. You all make big posts
I don't like TK and I think Guardman and Muse are non-aligned.
Of those last two, I lean towards Guardman for scum because he committed my favourite RVS tell (not voting in his first RVS post)
iRebel is not in any meta I am used from him, but I don't want to base conclusions on that; he is still new and is probably still looking for a play-style that works.
A summary of the case against him would help.
Asenion should be left alone on Day one.
I have a few strong townreads, but I prefer keeping those to myself for now.
That would work if it wasn't for the fact I almost never vote during the RVS in the first place, regardless of alignment, unless I have a good joke to tell.
The more you know.
I have some notes though and tomorrow after work I'll post a mini-catch up on my thoughts and I should be back to responding to all ongoing conversations from this point. Thanks for replacing in btw Rhand.
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Because I don't care: a 1 for 1 is a very good deal.
I'm not sure who i am voting, so to make sure: unvote, vote TK-421
Uh... what in Planet Express?
Unvote: Vote - TK-421
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Vain, and hardly. My death is meaningless. However, what IS important is a read on you. See the below (not DC's quote, but FIGHTING's) for why I was saying it. I had Paper as mafia, and FIGHTING did have us as buddies. But I make it a point to try not to judge a role based on a replaced player. I've had to in past games, but now I can actually push buttons and see how you react. I'm liking the aggressiveness yet reasoning I'm seeing in response. Much better than your predecessor.
Just this \/ Don't mind me, I'm just screwing with FIGHTING a little while I read Rhand. Or mind me. Whatever.
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You have to excuse my English, it's not my primary language
You have a weird way of gauging for reactions.
What's your incentive to 'screw' with FIGHTING?
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iRebel was my primary read, and I'm not that great about pursuing multiple leads at the same time. For other players, Paperblade's play has been bad and I did question him for it, but I would like to see more from Rhand, because it could just be bad play. TK's recent play, though, has pinged my radar, and caused me to go back and review his posts.
53: He then casually smears Void, trying to add a little extra breathing room for Paper.
84: He unvotes Blue after the Big Reveal and then provides some thoughts on three other people, following up with "I think we're just not far enough into the game to get a proper read yet". The only mention of Paper is in context of Blue's stuff which "now makes sense". Paper is never directly referenced here.
114/115: TK finally restates that Paper is one of his suspects for mafia after being asked directly.
158: This post (the second part), just doesn't make sense to me. You were obviously willing to vote Blue before, and now you're not willing to vote Paper now? You say "you had your reasons". Was it because Blue was already four votes deep and you knew he was Town, but Paper is your buddy? You try to spin this back on FIGHTING as being about backing down on Blue when it's really about avoiding voting for one of your "suspects".
161: You state you are "always vote shy", but indicated no such shyness when you voted Blue. You're avoiding lynching your buddy, or maybe trying to somehow make yourself look better if you know Paper's alignment?
169: Now your language changes subtly to indicate that Paper is "sitting near the top" instead of "your top suspect", without any indication of who else you feel is up there.
170: This post reads as completely manufactured.
178/180: These too.
184: "Much better than your predecessor" = "Maybe I don't have to bus my scumbuddy if he acts more like Town!"?
@FIGHTING: Given the way that TK-421 has been dancing around voting Paper/Rhand and his recent stuff, I'd prefer to lynch him over Paper. I could see a scenario where scum!TK-421 is trying to capitalize on town!Paper's bad play, and then upon a town!Paper flip is able to survive scrutiny for "not being as sure about it as others", gaining a mislynch for his team. I don't think lynching Paper toDay is the right call, since scum!TK could be approaching Paper from this angle regardless of Paper's alignment.
TLDR: Lynch TK-421 toDay, then reassess Paper/Rhand toMorrow. iRebel is still a suspect to me, but TK's play reeks.
Unvote Vote: TK-421
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In other words: TK is a Scum hunting pro with that move.
These three votes will be very telling later in the game.
More votes on iRebel though. He is still more likely to be Scum than anyone else here thus far.
Were you Captain Tzymo in FHF? oO
Because, well, I must say your play has most certainly improved then
He just created a ton of WIFOM and could have pressed Rhand just as easily without implicating himself.
You say there are no benefits to scum - but you're looking at him more favorably now saying that he's a scum hunting pro - so if he's scum, that's a benefit. Also, if he is scum and so is Rhand, there's now WIFOM around whether or not he'd so openly out his buddy.
There are tons of negatives if he's town. One, it just provided a huge distraction and I suspect him now where previously he wasn't in my top three. So if he is town, he's taken focus away from other areas when he could have just started pressing Rhand in a different way.
I'm also now wondering why you say that his play makes little sense from a scum perspective. You're saying that the votes on him will be telling later indicating that you think those votes are suspicious, while I think it's suspicious that you'd intervene and try to steer votes away from him, especially if you do think the votes are suspicious because, if so, wouldn't you want to wait to see who else placed a vote? - so there are all kinds of additional layers to have to wade through now.
If someone implies that they're scum, I'm going to believe them. Not something to bluff with.
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I like this guy.
Also, @Void - what do you mean by "on a possible Town member"? If TK is scum, he will have more information by knowing who his buddies are (unless you're suggesting that he may hit a neutral?).
Also, TK has already stated in thread that he will begin bussing buddies early:
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1) If TK Scum, then, yes, he got me to Town read him for that post towards Rhand.
2) What motivation does a Scum member have for making posts like those? Seriously, TK got VOTES for pulling that stunt. That right there speaks volumes about his post.
I know this was @DCII, but seriously? Your reasoning that he isn't scum is because he got voted for posting it?
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TK wasn't a non-suspect. FIGHTING has been pushing he and Paper hard and if you look at my suspicion list, he cropped up quite a bit, along with Paper and Fighting was linking the two.
His conclusion from his post was that he liked the way that Rhand was responding to pressure as opposed to Paper... so it could be a gambit to clear both. Or, it could just be a gambit to clear himself by having people think that he wouldn't make a post like that as scum, like you did.
He didn't press Paper hard despite saying he was his top suspect (and recently made a post saying that FIGHTING had been distracting him from doing so). So, he could be more comfortable with the way Rhand would respond to pressure as opposed to how he thought Paper would have. Notice how his play changed as soon as Paper replaced out.
It's complete WIFOM and making a blatant play like that that would draw votes can just as easily be refuted with "would I really do that if I were scum?"
Plus, it now casts doubt elsewhere that there wasn't previously (you on those voting for him, me on you for defending him).
I see plenty of possible scum motivations with or without Rhand as a buddy.
Void - if you thought TK was genuinely doing a good job of scumhunting, why wouldn't you have let that ride a little bit longer to see who else joined the wagon?
Town Win % = 75%
Mafia Win % = 75%
Overall Win % = 75%
Completed Game Log
2014: Best Mafia Performance (Group)
2014: Most Improved Player
2014: Best Town Player
2014: Best Overall Player
You're going to post a full T/S list, with reasons, Today. Failure to comply means that I disable the brakes and we lynch you.
I don't like giving early town reads because they help scum enormously when deciding who needs to die at night.
I will comply if there is more support for this, but I don't like your "I am the boss" attitude.
Oh, sorry, I didn't realize that 3 votes wasn't enough.
To further address the TK posting: How long would you expect a Scum TK to last for after making that post? If TK is Scum with Rhand or Paperblade or FIGHTING then it will come out in the wash. The interaction, by itself, is weird enough that if any of those 3 flip Scum, then TK will be a likely Scum buddy and get lots of pressure for it. At this point TK is a better Vig target than he is a lynch target, but that doesn't matter since TK is Town.
Call it WIFOM if you like too, but there is more to it than just chopping it short like you are DCIII.
You dismiss it with sarcasm but, yes. One vote was already there (Rhand's was a re-vote) and there were only two others. It's not like there's a chance he would have been quick lynched - why not see what else happened if it was an effective play to scum hunt?
Also, why would it come out in the wash for FIGHTING? To my knowledge, she hasn't been suspected. Blue did ask her off-handedly if she was going to NK her. Otherwise, I haven't seen anyone say anything alleging that she was scum. Also, either of those three? PaperBlade and Rhand are the same player so it's only two others.
Isn't part of your argument that it's unlikely that TK would make that play as scum, especially if Rhand is scum? So if Rhand is scum, why would that then come out in the wash for TK?
And walk me through why TK would be a better vig target than lynch target if he's the one who indicated that he was scum. Wouldn't he be dead either way if the shot was successful? This way, it wouldn't be preventable by any other course of action.
FIGHTING - why no comment on the TK situation when he was one of your top two reads prior to the recent chicanery?
Town Win % = 75%
Mafia Win % = 75%
Overall Win % = 75%
Completed Game Log
2014: Best Mafia Performance (Group)
2014: Most Improved Player
2014: Best Town Player
2014: Best Overall Player
I'll be back later evening, but for now I'll say that I find TK making stupid gambit posts to be fairly null. TK making a stupid gambit does not make him scum. It also doesn't make him town either, especially because he's already demonstrated awareness of his meta tells in this game.
So, I'm kind of just ignoring it. If you want to analyse TK's post there, look at Rhand's reaction instead.
Please do not count Rhand's vote as the same as Paperblade. They are not the same player. It's only convenient that Rhand happened to vote for TK as well.
Coming out of the wash doesn't mean someone is guaranteed to flip Scum. It simply means that everything will make sense in the end. At least that is how I have view that term. As for FIGHTING: She will come out in the wash as well since she is mentioned by TK in that weird exchange.
As for TK being a better Vig shot is because his alignment could be anything at this point. The last few posts from TK cement this. I would much rather lynch someone who is more likely to be Scum then the off chance that an unknown is Town.
Please tell me, DCIII, why do you believe that TK is Scum for his posting if you believe the entire exchange to WIFOM?
It comes from the same player in the game, though their reasoning might be different. It was still only three votes. More could have be gleaned if it was a viable strategy.
As for FIGHTING - why does TK mentioning her in that exchange mean she'll come out in the wash? Everything will always make sense in the end of a game of mafia. How does TK's mentioning her in that exchange relate to how she'll shake out in your opinion?
You say TK's alignment could be anything at this point but in the previous post you declared him Town.
You also say I believe the entire exchange to be WIFOM which is inaccurate. I think that he intentionally attempted to create WIFOM, which is what scum try to do. I already outlined why his play could be beneficial for scum and why it's certainly detrimental if he's town.
Also, I'll go ahead and state here and in any future games that I'm in that if someone implies or outright states that they're scum, I'm going to believe them and they will have my vote until one of us is dead. Not something that someone should be able to use to wriggle out of a situation as scum and, at best, a WIFOM inducing and detrimental play from town.
Town Win % = 75%
Mafia Win % = 75%
Overall Win % = 75%
Completed Game Log
2014: Best Mafia Performance (Group)
2014: Most Improved Player
2014: Best Town Player
2014: Best Overall Player
I'm going to leave this here for now.
Yes. I was stating that the impact and intent of TK's statement was to spin WIFOM. Not that everything about the entire situation is WIFOM. Let's look at the full quote:
The point of my quote there is very clearly to say that TK has motivation to and is intentionally creating WIFOM, not to say that the entire situation is WIFOM and can't be discerned.
You're cherry picking.
Also, you said that TK is town, but that he'd be a better vig target than lynch target and clarified later that it's because his alignment could be anything at this point in the below two:
Please reconcile this mindset for me. If you're confident that TK is town as a result of his actions, why would you say that his alignment could be anything at this point? If you're confident that he's town, why would you bring up the idea of a vig on him altogether? Why not just say he's not a good lynch target because he's town?
You're arguing from a place of what you think will be convincing, not from one of also being in the dark.
If you're town and you're that confident enough that TK is town that you're willing to jump in to defend him like this, then you'd be thinking "TK is town, we should focus the lynch elsewhere because he's not scum." The idea of him being a better vig target wouldn't occur to you because, at that point, you would feel confident in his alignment and wouldn't throw out new ideas on ways he could die only to say "but that doesn't matter since (he's) town." The idea of him being a better vig target than lynch target is from a mindset of how to appeal to someone to get them off of a lynch now, but it overlooks the mindset that you're already convinced that he's town.
Vote TK now, Vote Void later, everyone.
Town Win % = 75%
Mafia Win % = 75%
Overall Win % = 75%
Completed Game Log
2014: Best Mafia Performance (Group)
2014: Most Improved Player
2014: Best Town Player
2014: Best Overall Player
I was Captain Tzymo! My incentive to screw with FIGHTING? Because I can! I found it humorous that we (well, paper, not you) were being tied together. I'm naturally sarcastic and have a bit of a superiority complex. While a few people had listed me as a suspect, FIGHTING had a silly argument trying to make a tie about me not voting after having voted Blue. Plus, as a mod (and a global at that) I'm expected to maintain a certain decorum around the forums. But in mafia, I can let the claws come out As for my weird way of gauging people, you'll find I'm generally pretty weird.
Fun fact: I learned this from the great Nai in Modfia 4. I no longer remember whether he was mafia or town, but I do remember that the discussion generated by it was great for hashing out who to go after. (I do remember at the time, I held the same view as you.) However, I know following this train of thought will leave you disappointed.
Ah, but you see, there's a difference between bussing and outting. No, if Rhand and I were legitimately buddies, I would actually have some kind of case against him instead of fumbling around with the case about voting Void for his RVS no lynch.
Anyway, DCIII, is it bad for there to be doubts on those who didn't have them? Let's say we're at the conclusion of this debate of whether mafia!TK would post something like this. In the mean time, we've now learned a lot about you, Void, Cythare, FIGHTING, Rhand and even me! HALF the players will have given their opinions. And that's assuming others don't join in. Since behavioral analysis is such a vital component, being able to provide such a large swath of targets is actually GOOD for the town.
By the time this is done, we could get to the point where half the town is proven Town. That makes it REALLY hard for the mafia to win. Or let's go the opposite direction. We suss out that there's actually 3 mafia within our discussion and we find them. Again, REALLY hard for the mafia to win. Ok, things aren't usually so cut and dried. Maybe there's only one or two in our discussion. We find them, and then start going through POE on the other 6.
tl;dr, painting a bull's-eye on your back can be perfectly townie because of the way it causes those around you to react.
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In fairness, Mister TK, you do not know me THAT well.
That is not very informative, Mister Void! ^^
I await your explanation with bated breath, Mister Asenion. ^^
Hello, Mister Rhand. ^^ Please explain why I should believe you are town, as your predecessor did an amazingly poor job of such.
Perhaps Miss FIGHTING was on to something - I merely shrugged your poor play off as inexperience, which is making me doubt my paranoia of Miss FIGHTING. Ugh, the decisions that have to be made in Mafia.
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Mister Cythare, you could not have timed your jump on to Mister TK at a worse time. I can not stand it when such things obfuscate my reads.
I was going to make mention that I would much rather pursue iRebel in light of this awful, WIFOM-laden development, yet it seems Mister Void has beaten me to it, so I have no issue distributing further town points to him. Not that I needed any help reading Mister Void to begin with.
Do you think so? Because I can not say I necessarily feel the same way, at least not in light of how he handled the event of you replacing into this game, Mister Rhand.
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Mister Cythare, why have you seemingly only been invested in this game as of recently? How do you feel about Mister Dog at present?
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I am in favor of Mister Rhand providing full reads thus far.
I have what I believe is a relatively solid town block, and I will share a full reads list, myself, once Mister Rhand has provided his own.
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@Mister TK: Mister Nai was town in that game. ^^
Also, thanks for actually doing the work and looking (or remembering) that game.
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And it was relatively easy to remember - Mister Nai and Mister TCM were Masons that game. Ring a bell?
I knew that Modfia 4 had the mason pair flavored as me and parinoid as bronies, but had forgotten who had been us. Hilariously, YOU replaced the other person to claim mafia that game.
I'll stop distracting your catch up now!
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