Hey Ryan, how has Underworld Cerberus worked for you? I kept thinking about Pack Rat vs Polis Crusher, and how everyone was packing Hero's Downfall and how used it was in Standard...
First of all, has playing it mainboard ever bit you in the ass? Opponent get's his Stormbreath Dragons and Desecration Demons back? Giving aggro and R/G Devotion a full hand and what-not? I might put a single Cerberus mainboard depending on your answer, over either a GCR or a TKA.
More importantly, is it good against mono-black? On one hand, you get your cards back. On the other hand, they get their demons back. I don't think 2 Oozes is enough to mitigate the entirety of Cerberus's drawback and I wouldn't recommend more than 2 Oozes unless against heavy aggro.
It makes sense putting it SB, especially against control. Then again, even Control shells run Stormbreaths and Demons and other such big beaters. And I consider Varolz a SB shoe-in (at the very least), if only out of fear of Anger of the Gods. So with the Dyssynergy between Varolz and Cerberus; the inability to scavenge Cerberus, Varolz scavenging our other creatures, etc...
So yeah: Underworld Cerberus vs Pack Rat 5 drop? I'm thinking both are better than Polis Crusher...
EDIT: I forgot to mention this, but in your last list, I greatly recommend Stormbreath Dragon over Polukranos. You get evasion, protection but most importantly of all: haste.
Underworld Cerberus is very good. Minus a million Detention Spheres... But generally it's role as an unblockable 6/6 is huge. It plays a very similar role to Kalonian Hydra in the deck except no possibility of haste, it takes one turn longer to kill them usually haste aside, but you get value if they kill it. It is amazing against low removal decks or anything resembling a mirror. One of the best things about it's just a 6/6 for 5 which is decent rate even against mono red. You might be scared to block with a 4/4 hydra. It's good against high removal decks too. Basically it's always pretty good. I think the rate of evasive 6 damage a turn is good enough, whereas I'm not a fan of Stormbreath Dragon for that reason. I'd take Kalonian Hydra before Stormbreath purely on rate. I think at 5 mana the creatures need to do more than that. I realize Stormbreath leads the damage race the first 2 turns in play but Underworld Cerberus is arguably more evasive dodging Desecration Demons etc.. I think Cerberus is better than Pack Rat.. I was running Cerberus and Pack Rat to try to hedge. But the problem really was not being able to run enough relevant threats and removal before. I think this new list might be better. I was at a point was ready to sideboard Spike Jesters. Most places I'd want Dragon I think I like Mistcutter Hydra better. They are the same rate but Hydra has that top deck effect of being even more of a monster in those matchups.
Cerberus's Drawback is surprisingly irrelevant. It would be more so if we were a removal based deck. But the thing is our creatures are bigger than most. So even if they buy back a bunch of creatures ours are usually better. The exception is if we waste resources to kill a Desecration Demon. Basically Cerberus is best when you play the biggest creatures at each CA since after it dies it's the mana that is the most restrictive. I try to side step that by playing my own Demons. I mean there are board states where you want to slam it as your 5 and you should probably hold it and play out your 4's. I've had Mono Red waste 3 burn spells to kill it and buy back a bunch of creatures.. but they couldn't cast them all right away. I've had weenie decks triple block it and get all their guys back, but having Whip completely made it worth it (basically a life gaining Evacuation). Anger of the Gods plays a nice game with it too. In that you can exile their little creatures (and yours but seriously who cares if you have big creatures). The thing with the devotion decks is they are usually low removal so Cerberus just walks past their ranks and does a lot of work. Demon/Domri create this squeeze with it.
The times I most have issues with the drawback is the other one. Turning off Ooze has been annoying when I can't race (but usually worse for the opponent). I usually don't mind it turning off my Whip for obvious reasons... Flesh//Blood is a bit unfortunate though, because his 6/6 evasive body is perfect target.. So many times I've wanted to Flesh//Blood a Desecration Demon on to it. 12 damage to the face plus 12/12 unblockable. But no deal. Oh well.
I haven't played against the control decks you are describing. Most of them are very threat light like 2 Aetherlings.. or Aetherling Elspeth. I could see it being annoying if you killed their big threat and they get them back, but more likely they are busy trying to kill your threats with Cerberus the end of that chain. Again maybe it's because outside of Demon (and arguably Aetherling, which is problematic anyway) you should be just bigger.. I mean the turn they tap out for fat is another threat you deploy. Dragon is not very scary. I guess you mean the more midrange decks like BR and BW. I group those largely like mono black (but worse)
I guess when it comes down to it later in the game I'd rather have Underworld Cerberus. Early game I'd rather have Varolz. I think both are reasonable as Cerberus doesn't stop you from Scavenging while it lives. Varolz is a mana sink whereas Cerberus is a big threat that might draw you a few cards. I like Cerberus a lot but I probably like it a lot the way I like Exava. Basically just a big hammer, it doesn't really have much finesse which might be needed for late game. I don't know if it fits every list. It's a lot better when you basically ensure it's atleast your 2nd or 3rd big threat. It's not good as your first.. More than likely they kill your first so that makes it atleast reasonable. If you curve out Desecration Demon, Cerberus, I mean does it matter if the opponent gets their creatures back.
I play Polukranos as removal mainly. It's decent at picking off Master of Waves.. Basically part of the key to beating mono blue and various weenie decks. We don't always generate enough mana to make it ideal mind you. But the fact the damage to opponents creatures is optional just makes it a big threat. Like if you attack into a Desecration Demon with 5 mana up they can't really block. I mean they can block and Doom Blade, but they could just have Doom Bladed (I realize investing the mana and getting time walked is bad, but it's that sort of thing). It's more of that big on board thing. It's Polukranos, and Desecration Demons I'm buying back with Cerberus. If I was in the market for a different 5 I'd probably play different 4 drops.
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Yeah I think my board needs work. Polish Crusher was ok. But I need to find room for Varolz again. I didn't like the 4th Domri that much since my plan against control ended up with less creatures. Maybe I should just 2 Varolz, 2 Golgari Charm instead of Domri, Crusher, and maybe even Abrupt Decay. Maybe Thoughtseize isn't good enough here.
Here's the immediate thing: my creatures are, for the most part, not bigger than my opponent's. Hydra is bigger, but only after attacking. Everything else tops at 4/4, even the Hydra in a fashion. I have 14 cards two mana and under! And after SB the closest thing they'd be replaced by in terms of mana cost would be Varolz!
You're right, having the biggest creatures counts for Cerberus. I'm thinking of a build where I'd replace my Scavenging Oozes for a Cerberus and a 4th GCR (SB changes: -3Polis Crusher, +1Cerberus, +2Oozes for a total of 3 SB). Some kind of plan that combines GCR-based removal with Cerberus... But putting that much faith in a single Cerberus? I could always try replacing a GCR for a Cerberus... But GCR is often one of my few sources of removal what with the hate Domri entails.
I am that guy who needs to waste his resources on removing a DEsecration Demon. Like I said, black won't block my attackers, forcing me to use Domri instead. Normally that's resource waste, but taking out the biggest threat is often worth it. Which brings me back to the Cerberus and his need to recur the biggest threats to be relevant.
As for your deck, Stormbreath haste means everything once you realize that he's not hasting alone; and that if you do have two swings of a Dragon that's often one more than any other creature in this meta. The current meta is slower because everyone is packing removal. Hero's Downfall is becoming a common complaint, and like I said, the equivalent of a Cancel against us. Hence my original interest for the Cerberus.
I'd also recommend you going 4 Caryatids. The faster you can get your threats online, the better.
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Think about what creatures we'd be Bloodrushing. Or at least, that I'd be Bloodrushing. It won't save a TKA being blocked by something that deals 4 Power and above, but then again we use TKA as a form of removal anyhow. With Dreg Mangler, he trades one-for-one with Desecration Demon, and until I see a regular 7/7 in standard, that's the biggest non-monstrous creature in standard. With Exava... Well Exava has First strike, she wins.
Pyrewild remains relevant against Control until they bring in Elspeth. In this case, cast Pyrewild as a Creature and just make sure he doesnt Anger the Gods. I'm effectively losing a 4/4 Trampler for 4 mana, but I consider there's far too much Removal in this meta for such a vanilla creature. Didn't you say he was behind the curve anyhow?
Against mono-green Dev... Well that's where he fails hard. I would want to hard cast a 4/4 Trampler to push through Satyr tokens. I SB in Lifebane over Manglers, Varolz over Oozes, and that's not a lot of threats that don't get stonewalled. That new Naya Control deck is particularly infuriating because it uses Xanagos and Elspeth to consistently stonewall...
With 6 mana on the board (not that difficult), he's a funny answer to Desecration Demon. Sac, swing, recoup, cast, repeat...
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Yeah.. Although at that point I almost want to go back to Boon Satyr. I'm not sure which is more mana efficient. I think we've become too cute to try to facilitate cards that don't matter. I think it isn't even that the cards don't matter but that the splash is too hard. I realized once I started playing Thrill Kill it wasn't the fact the card was any good but that I could suddenly go 1 2 3 .. you do that and you beat mono black. You beat a lot of awkward decks in the format. The red mana is the biggest hinderance. I guess we are going to have to play taplands regardless and Temple Scry is better than a Golgari Guildgate but the GB cards are better than the red ones I think. The mana felt so much better even in that pretty bad big mostly Golgari list I posted. Caryatid might just be too awkward. There is no jumping ahead at that point. 1-2-3-4 or 1-3-4 are both good.. but 2-4 isn't.
The problem with the mana is not having the colors and then playing a Scry land just to get them in the early turns. So even if you play Golgari Guildgate in a 2 color deck you probably have GB. You aren't forced into it. Being able to Thoughtseize on 1 could be nice. That might make a difference.
I'm sort of going back to where I started I guess with Troll, and Varolz.. I think the only reason I really wanted Domri was I was worried I couldn't be control. But maybe jamming a enough discard will do that. Mind you once you curve down like that Exava can be pretty sweet for those deal with me draws. I'm gonna see if a red splash has any merit. My biggest issue with Golgari is the do nothingness of it. It's too grindy. If red can offer some sort of gotcha I think it's potentially decent.
I played my latest list a bunch online and while I was doing well in the intended matchups I was losing to every random deck.. like I had a Boros play 2 games in a row beat me with T6 Elspeth into T7 Angel of Serenity.. In the 2nd game was able to overpower the first and lost to the 2nd Elspeth after the Angel of Serenity. It's just ridiculous for a deck like this ever to be able to get into those board states. I lost to a white weenie deck with a T1 Pantheon, T2, 2 Pantheon draw. Ok.. I mean stuff like that happens but I think we are into that dreaded white metagame you were worried about. I don't know if I'm particular worried about white weenie but I'm a bit frusterated where the deck doesn't do anything. Not that the grass is necessarily any greener. Maybe I just need to simplify. I think they built this format in a way the typically creature ramp into fat just doesn't work. I mean I will take a Mystic into Dreg Mangler but that's about as far as I want to go. I think the bigger body on board strategy that usually works for me is flawed here. Having less value in the format + Thoughtseize has made removal so good that it's overloaded. Just too much to deal with. Usually it's dead in some places so you can't play that game but that's not the case here. I have been saying this for a while and I keep getting pulled back in cause it's so close. But I need to start again from the ground up.
EDIT: Although I think Troll Varolz is pretty miserable too more I think of it. (For the same reasons I gave in the post about why I didn't like Troll)..
hey ryan, I think both of us have had similar results. You can't play jund the same way this season as you could last season. Removal is too good and plentiful to rely on big bodies doing the work. I don't know where to work red in anymore, GB seems to have the necessary tools atm. Great removal and more importantly, resilient creatures. MBD and RDW have a hard time getting rid of lotleth and varolz.
The trolls aren't bad at all. Lotleth is 9 times out of 10 a three drop but it's not like you don't have any plays before then. You have thoughtseize, ultimate price, abrupt decay, golgari charm, your 1 drop creatures of choice etc. I just started running corpsejack menace as a 2 of; he has mad synergy with lotleth and ooze, especially with both of them out and almost always puts 2 counters on ex.1 when cast. It's not a gimmick.
Anyways I am rambling here but I just wanted chime in since you put a lot of work/thought into your decks and there's nothing worse than feeling like you're overcomplicating things. I always enjoy reading your posts, keep it up man.
By your talk of 1-2-3s I'm guessing that Caryatids aren't working out? Or that you're not getting enough value off your 4-drops? Turn 3 Polukranos means turn 3 5/5 and a turn 3 DD is bound to catch control unaware. Even turn 3 GCR has been most helpful to me against the aggro match-up.
On my end... I've been realizing that lifegain isn't what I'm going for in such a combo deck. My deck needs Domri the most, because if I don't have an offensive creature, I'm screwed. I realized that Pyrewild works along GCR, and I'm trying new refinements that eschew lifegain for more removal/draw. Something like, -2 Oozes, -1 Whip from my old maindeck, replaced by an Underworld Cerberus, a Pyrewild Shaman and an Into the Wilds. Because land clumps sucks for this deck and there's a modicum of synergy with Domri.
If you're going in more Golgari colors, you'll really appreate Lifebane Zombie. I think you'll have to go more black than green, though. At which point I'm afraid you'll fall into the old trap of differentiating yourself from the mo-black decks splashing green for Vraska/abrupt decay that are infesting standard.
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Anyone still in this thing? Love is gone for Thrill-Kill Assassin, now I'm experimenting with Deadly Recluse instead. In the mainboard.
Sounds stupid but there's just so many threats this card neutralizes. It really helps keep the pressure off Domri, drawing hate and managing to stall many win conditions out there such as DD and Stormbreath. It's completely asynergistic with my deck, but what was I going to do? With Exava it gains haste, big woop... Growing to 3/4 with Kalonian Hydra was cool at times, but Kalonian Hydra itself was the finish: one hit with the Hydra was enough to send people down the red zone.
Deadly Recluse does everything expected from TKA except damage. The two toughness also makes it a non-factor against Precinct Captain and Fiendslayer Paladin... but only white weenie uses such cards. Red doesn't really have any efficient first strikers.
Since this is a new page and a lot has happened, I'll just post my new deck:
What a mess of cards this is. No seriously, who'd imagine this could be championship material?
Breakdown: 4 Hydras + 2 Underworld Cerberus are our threats, our game enders. Pseudo-evasiveness with some manner of protection thrown in, wrapped in a package of pure power.
EDIT: I'm tired of losing all my game ones against aggro or red decks due to complete lack of lifegain so I'm hedging my bets. I'm moving my Cerberuses to the SB, to be brought in against pure control.
EDIT 2: GCR has been underperforming. Have replaced them with Reaper of the Wilds, and I removed a single Deadly Recluse for a second Pyrewild Shaman. The next thing I'll most probably edit will be the Mainboard inclusion of Whip of Erebos, for another removal-ish creature card in the SB against the Aggro match-up.
I have high hopes for singleton Pyrewild Shaman. I think it's better than Boon Satyr in our decks because the 2 mana bloorush cost makes it easier to hide. If I've always treated Bloodrush as pseudo-removal, then Pyrewild is a recuring pseudo-removal spell. Gives values to my recluses: I swing and either get my card back or they lose another creature.
I wonder if people realize how so many more battles are won on advantageous board states rather than life points; that's why I threw out my Oozes and Whip from the mainboard. For the purpose of drawing threats, I prefer Wilds to Underworld Connections because it simply filters off the non-threats without costing me anything. It's also easy to cast from a turn 2 Caryatid. Gotta think about them 4 drops.
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Is the second Whip or third Cerberus needed? (Both of them are independently a question, not as a strangely-conjoined pair.)
Miser's of Polis Crusher and Nylea?
My reasonings for them are that we want to see a Cerberus at SOME point most games, as it's a self-contained engine (we play guys, they die in combat/to removal, we land a Cerberus, HOORAY) in this build, and the third facilitates this more than "hope". Along those lines are why I wanted the second Whip (increases odds of seeing it).
On other lines, the miser's Polis Crusher and Nylea are there to have trampling threats, including just giving trample to other threats. The Crusher could easily just become a second Nylea, but then I think I'd want another Erebos.
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Nocturnal God of Chaos of The Æsir Probably the most random person you will ever meet. Trust me on this one. Well, I'm off to poop.
Oh, my username is the same on Xbox and Cockatrice, add me!
"For some of us, easier Magic is good Magic, but if you are one of those 'intelligent types,' feel free to play your Hive Mind mirrors. The rest of us are here for the fireworks." - Kent Ketter
Playing in Type 2...BGRJundHearted
Immediately, I'd think the first question you should ask yourself is: what's my two drop? Because just having 4 Caryatids isn't enough (although four is the correct number) and Scooze isn't a two drop per-se.
I'm going back and forth between Deadly Recluses and Thrill-Kill Assassin, between 3 copies and 4; because I know most decks now open with a Thoughtseize and having an early play matters in the long run.
Specifically? I think Whip is overrated and Cerberus might be more your style. You're not running Kalonian Hydra, so I think you get more value off Varolz scavenge than a single blow from a non-evasive beat. Cerberus itself offers evasiveness, in a fashion.
I can't approve of your misers copy, unless from the sideboard, and even then. You can't activate Nylea regularly and even I found Polis Crusher disappointing at times. I'd ditch Nylea, leave the miser's Crusher SB and decide from there.
By your talk of 1-2-3s I'm guessing that Caryatids aren't working out? Or that you're not getting enough value off your 4-drops? Turn 3 Polukranos means turn 3 5/5 and a turn 3 DD is bound to catch control unaware. Even turn 3 GCR has been most helpful to me against the aggro match-up.
On my end... I've been realizing that lifegain isn't what I'm going for in such a combo deck. My deck needs Domri the most, because if I don't have an offensive creature, I'm screwed. I realized that Pyrewild works along GCR, and I'm trying new refinements that eschew lifegain for more removal/draw. Something like, -2 Oozes, -1 Whip from my old maindeck, replaced by an Underworld Cerberus, a Pyrewild Shaman and an Into the Wilds. Because land clumps sucks for this deck and there's a modicum of synergy with Domri.
If you're going in more Golgari colors, you'll really appreate Lifebane Zombie. I think you'll have to go more black than green, though. At which point I'm afraid you'll fall into the old trap of differentiating yourself from the mo-black decks splashing green for Vraska/abrupt decay that are infesting standard.
Yes it is the 4 drops that are underwhelming even when T 3 after a Caryatid. The average control/midrange deck is about 30% removal/discard which means more often then not they have an answer for your first 3 threats. Which means it takes usually 4 Demon/polukranos etc to get on the board by which time they are set up. It isn't that Caryatid is terrible but we have to spread out more must kill along the curve and play multiple spell early turns. The trick is to do so without curving down into low impact cards. Doing so just makes dork density a thing. The full 8 is probably incorrect if you only have 4 5drops as a curve topper. Domri equalizes this but Domri needs to do more than draw low impact cards. That's the danger of Thrill-Kill. Too easy for certain decks to ignore even it gives Domri more meaning. Deadly recluse in many ways is a further extension of this. Early fliers are definitely problematic, this will trade and with death touch you can shoot stuff with Domri. However you are playing a squire. It's a removal spell that can be played around since while the body is relevant to Domri and maybe Ghor Clan this card either is unblockable 1 power or on defense most of the time.
Since we play 2 drops. Throwing them under the bus against is reasonable anyway against aggro. What is more important is actually making a midrange or control opponent sweat at seeing them. That's a lot to ask of a 2 but we need 2-3 drops that do that. Multiple Caryatid draw doesn't. We'd need a nuts 5-6 that didn't just die to removal.
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Which brings us back to Reaper of the Wilds, Lotleth Troll and other G/B creatures with some form of protection or another. I'd lump Dreg Mangler into this group as well because Haste is a form of protection, against sorcery speed removal and people tapping out on their turns. And thus comes Exava; and thus comes the full concept of Turbo-Hydra.
So needless to say, Deadly Recluse was a bust. Trying my hand at everything, I went back to Lotleth Troll. Still experimenting with Pyrewild Shaman, it does have synergy with the Troll. If you really want to go 1-2-3, I'd suggest you follow the G/R midrange thread. They're looking at a monsters build with plenty of GCRs and Kalonian Boars for second turn 3/3. Talroma claims it stomps all over mono black but I fail to imagine how it'd beat a hand full of Toughseizes, Lifebane Zombies, removal and such. At which point you follow the G/B hexproof thread (Fear the Reaper), which I consider strictly better.
I guess every deck has its bad top decks, but Lotleth helps mitigate that as well. I was thinking of mainboarding Varolz for this same reason (mitigating bad topdecks) but my two drops need more work than my three drops. And yes, I will play Troll and Reaper at their given cost (not holding regen/hexp mana up) because every Hero's Downfall that hits a second/third turn play doesn't hit the rest of my stuff and because I simply cannot wait the extra turn for it to attack (that is to say, I'd play these cards without mana back-up only as a last resort).
Cerberus goes in against mono-black, but I keep him SB because I was tired of losing to aggro decks game one. Rakdos Return over Slaughter Games as I realize how the Hydra pretty much offers inevitability, so might as well screw their hands up ASAP rather than grind against them. 2nd Putrify because I realized I was mostly using Domri as removal anyways, so who cares if I screw up a +1 or not. He never survives for long anyways and I need to kill those opposing creatures.
Experiment Jund had a few weeks of fame but no top finishes IIRC. A lot of the parts are still around and mana is still good enough for some kind of similar rendition. Here're two ideas I've had for this kinda' deck, any feedback would be nice.
This deck just wants to draw and attack with hasty threats. The mana is wonderful: 7 tap lands can be played alongside Rakdos Cackler, then we have 18 ways to cast him, 15 black and red for T2 plays, and 13 green for T3 plays.
If you really want to go 1-2-3, I'd suggest you follow the G/R midrange thread. They're looking at a monsters build with plenty of GCRs and Kalonian Boars for second turn 3/3. Talroma claims it stomps all over mono black but I fail to imagine how it'd beat a hand full of Toughseizes, Lifebane Zombies, removal and such. At which point you follow the G/B hexproof thread (Fear the Reaper), which I consider strictly better.
I can somewhat believe that. I was on Kalonian Tusker a couple weeks ago. I still think it's better than Troll if we could support the mana. I played it at Game Day. Varolz is the real winner of the pile though. I think Varolz is better than both Lotleth Troll and Reaper of the Wilds. Reaper is kind of clunky. There is quite a cost to holding up hexproof mana.
Right now I'm back to trying to overload Removal. I'm working on decks that have Pack Rat, Desecration Demon, and Kalonian Hydra. The Rat and the Hydra both benefit from having mana early. Basically instead of trying to force through early damage which may get stifled I try to just have more threats than removal Spells.. Dreg Mangler and Varolz for support put a lot of pressure on. Basically no one can let the former 3 survive very long. They end games way too quickly so it doesn't take too much to over power a lot of decks. The tricky part is finding the right set of support cards. I am giving red a try but I think blue with Nightveil Specter(maybe even Thasa for the unblockable and Domri imitation) might be the right play. Funny enough I've finding Gaze of Granite main playable in the deck. It kills my own Rats but if they don't deal with the rats they are dead anyway. Most threats.. it seems to be a reasonable enough reset button.
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Here's an idea for a deck: play your full 8 mana dorks and make Underworld Cerberus your top cost threat. Add in your choice of either Lotleth Troll or Pack Rat. You'll need about 4 Varolz too for consistency, spread out amongst your 75. He's not (necessarily) your scavenge enabler, he's a free instant creature sack.
Get it? Ramp to 5, play Cerberus and either kill opponent or get cards back to reuse as either +1/+1 counters or extra rats. Varolz ensures you get full use off your mana dorks as Caryatid has the nasty habit of surviving when you want him as Troll/Rat enabler. He also acts as lightning rod against Detention Spheres and what-nots: saccing the Cerberus in response to ensure you get your cards back.
Best part: you can choose the 4 drop of your choice. Now I've been thinking about what that 4 drop should be, but I do know it should be the greatest threat I could get for 4 mana, so as to get the greatest value when it returns from the GY. I'm hesitating between Desecration, GCR, Reaper and Exava.
Exava has been a disappointment in that many decks mainboard 4 Desecration Demons and Exava can't blow past that. Demon itself is often a disappointment against faster Boros decks, I can't recommend him for your deck. I even thought about Rot farm Skeleton, which isn't such a bad idea against control! In short, I don't know what I want. I'll probably keep the Domri build as I'm starved for card draw, so I'll want as much creature-based removal as possible.
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Bringing Turbo-Hydra back to Standard...
:symg::symr::symb: Domri Jund
I literally cannot think of a situation where I want my Cerberus to die to return 2 or more manadorks to my hand, even if I control a Varolz. Also, Caryatid surviving is not a "nasty problem", just means that you cast a Farseek that can block. Not sure how that's a bad thing.
As for the "best 4 drop" I think that a split between Polukranos and Desecration Demon (more Demons than legendary Hydras, I'd think), with potentially 10 4cmcs (or more!), and few 5cmc's and POSSIBLY 2 6cmcs.
Our biggest problem is the "new" RWB (or ANY) burn deck that's popping up, and how we approach that matchup. I'm not sure we have enough without Whip(s).
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Nocturnal God of Chaos of The Æsir Probably the most random person you will ever meet. Trust me on this one. Well, I'm off to poop.
Oh, my username is the same on Xbox and Cockatrice, add me!
"For some of us, easier Magic is good Magic, but if you are one of those 'intelligent types,' feel free to play your Hive Mind mirrors. The rest of us are here for the fireworks." - Kent Ketter
Playing in Type 2...BGRJundHearted
It's a strange combo of green ramp w/ removal, w/ a lot of resilience to sweepers to pressure the hell out of esper. The biggest differences between my list and the original are the removal of Sire of Insanity and the adding of Lotleth Troll. Basically you're never happy to see Sire in your hand; it's only value comes as a very desperate play when you're behind. It's like drawing a suicide vest from your deck. The troll is quite the charming creature; a resilient blocker, naturally immune to much removal and can regen to go immune to the rest of it, and can eat additional mystics, caryatids, and even other trolls to get bigger and troll your opponent. Chances are if it doesn't kill your opponent, your Cerberus will be bringing back all Lotleth's food. You definitely want to slow roll a Cerberus versus a deck w/ Downfalls or Dreadbores to get the most value out of its effect; Reaper, Demon, Polukranos, and Troll are very capable of killing opponents on their own though. Ooze is very flexible, grizzly bear to late game janitor bear; clean out your opponents graveyard before taking them on a ride through Cerberus town.
It sides to more midrang-y versus some slower matchups.
p.s. I hate Dreg Mangler. It doesn't actually help versus any matchup, unlike Troll. Plus scavenge is a clunky and largely irrelevant ability.
I would ask that in the Dega thread, titled Mythic Midrange.
That said, she does seem pretty bonkers there, especially with her ultimate becoming actually threatening, where as she is pretty awful to try and ultimate in our lists.
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"For some of us, easier Magic is good Magic, but if you are one of those 'intelligent types,' feel free to play your Hive Mind mirrors. The rest of us are here for the fireworks." - Kent Ketter
Playing in Type 2...BGRJundHearted
Not a fan of 3 color beatdown decks this format because of the ETB tapped lands that you're forced to run it makes it pretty hard to consistently curve out. I'd just run either GB or RG for smoother mana.
Not a fan of 3 color beatdown decks this format because of the ETB tapped lands that you're forced to run it makes it pretty hard to consistently curve out. I'd just run either GB or RG for smoother mana.
Nocturnal God of Chaos of The Æsir Probably the most random person you will ever meet. Trust me on this one. Well, I'm off to poop.
Oh, my username is the same on Xbox and Cockatrice, add me!
"For some of us, easier Magic is good Magic, but if you are one of those 'intelligent types,' feel free to play your Hive Mind mirrors. The rest of us are here for the fireworks." - Kent Ketter
Playing in Type 2...BGRJundHearted
I love so many cards in this deck and the premise of Domri in a Jund shell. With that said, I think your deck is horrible, no offense intended. There is no removal until the SB. That really leaves a rough game against a LOT of decks. You don't even use 189 creatures except Polukranos. Which really loses versatility with no acceleration. It's basically a 4 mana 5/5. Nothing really special there.
The deck is chock full of high costed creatures and Caryatid is the only acceleration. I think it's mainly in there for mana fixing and it just doesn't do enough. It's very hard to win game one against aggro and then you have to hope to win the next 2. That's not a bet I want to try for a whole tourney.
There are 3 thoughtseizes but only one MD lifegain card. Oozes suck in a deck with no removal. Cerberus is just a 6/6 5 mana creature. That's not really using it's abilities to max benefit. Varolz also works much better with cheap high power creatures. There are none here. Its also used more as a blocker because you have nothing to keep the small creatures off your back.
This deck may work against control ok but control has much better card selection and once an Aetherling hits, you die. Your SB would just hope to hit relevant cards before their better card selection hits theirs. I wouldn't take that bet. Throw in your limited ability to interact with PWs, and this deck is just too disorganized to really do well.
I love so many cards in this deck and the premise of Domri in a Jund shell. With that said, I think your deck is horrible, no offense intended. There is no removal until the SB. That really leaves a rough game against a LOT of decks. You don't even use 189 creatures except Polukranos. Which really loses versatility with no acceleration. It's basically a 4 mana 5/5. Nothing really special there.
The deck is chock full of high costed creatures and Caryatid is the only acceleration. I think it's mainly in there for mana fixing and it just doesn't do enough. It's very hard to win game one against aggro and then you have to hope to win the next 2. That's not a bet I want to try for a whole tourney.
There are 3 thoughtseizes but only one MD lifegain card. Oozes suck in a deck with no removal. Cerberus is just a 6/6 5 mana creature. That's not really using it's abilities to max benefit. Varolz also works much better with cheap high power creatures. There are none here. Its also used more as a blocker because you have nothing to keep the small creatures off your back.
This deck may work against control ok but control has much better card selection and once an Aetherling hits, you die. Your SB would just hope to hit relevant cards before their better card selection hits theirs. I wouldn't take that bet. Throw in your limited ability to interact with PWs, and this deck is just too disorganized to really do well.
Is this configuration more to your liking? That's the beauty of this 75, is that you HAVE all the tools you could want at your disposal. The question is how did I skew my deck for game one configurations? I chose to build towards a control heavy/aggro moderate meta. The question isn't about winning game ones, it's about winning matches.
Nocturnal God of Chaos of The Æsir Probably the most random person you will ever meet. Trust me on this one. Well, I'm off to poop.
Oh, my username is the same on Xbox and Cockatrice, add me!
"For some of us, easier Magic is good Magic, but if you are one of those 'intelligent types,' feel free to play your Hive Mind mirrors. The rest of us are here for the fireworks." - Kent Ketter
Playing in Type 2...BGRJundHearted
Is this configuration more to your liking? That's the beauty of this 75, is that you HAVE all the tools you could want at your disposal. The question is how did I skew my deck for game one configurations? I chose to build towards a control heavy/aggro moderate meta. The question isn't about winning game ones, it's about winning matches.
I do like it better but there's some cards I just don't like in there either way. I don't like Cerberus or Varolz in this deck, and would rather have Ruric Thar, the 2 Lifebane and the Sire out of the board. Add 4 more removal(3 dreadbore/1 more abrupt) and maybe switch out the Varolz for Loltrolls(or something else) and your deck would look pretty good(IMO).
This is all just my personal belief but I did play your deck for a little while and it just never came together for me. I lost badly a few times to devotion decks when I just couldn't get removal at the right times. Since this deck is fairly slow, I never got off fast enough. Varolz usually was a speed bump and I had mana problems a few times which makes me wonder if another land would do more than Erebos.
Sorry that I'm picking your deck apart. I just liked some aspects of it and after testing some, this is what I noticed.
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Underworld Cerberus is very good. Minus a million Detention Spheres... But generally it's role as an unblockable 6/6 is huge. It plays a very similar role to Kalonian Hydra in the deck except no possibility of haste, it takes one turn longer to kill them usually haste aside, but you get value if they kill it. It is amazing against low removal decks or anything resembling a mirror. One of the best things about it's just a 6/6 for 5 which is decent rate even against mono red. You might be scared to block with a 4/4 hydra. It's good against high removal decks too. Basically it's always pretty good. I think the rate of evasive 6 damage a turn is good enough, whereas I'm not a fan of Stormbreath Dragon for that reason. I'd take Kalonian Hydra before Stormbreath purely on rate. I think at 5 mana the creatures need to do more than that. I realize Stormbreath leads the damage race the first 2 turns in play but Underworld Cerberus is arguably more evasive dodging Desecration Demons etc.. I think Cerberus is better than Pack Rat.. I was running Cerberus and Pack Rat to try to hedge. But the problem really was not being able to run enough relevant threats and removal before. I think this new list might be better. I was at a point was ready to sideboard Spike Jesters. Most places I'd want Dragon I think I like Mistcutter Hydra better. They are the same rate but Hydra has that top deck effect of being even more of a monster in those matchups.
Cerberus's Drawback is surprisingly irrelevant. It would be more so if we were a removal based deck. But the thing is our creatures are bigger than most. So even if they buy back a bunch of creatures ours are usually better. The exception is if we waste resources to kill a Desecration Demon. Basically Cerberus is best when you play the biggest creatures at each CA since after it dies it's the mana that is the most restrictive. I try to side step that by playing my own Demons. I mean there are board states where you want to slam it as your 5 and you should probably hold it and play out your 4's. I've had Mono Red waste 3 burn spells to kill it and buy back a bunch of creatures.. but they couldn't cast them all right away. I've had weenie decks triple block it and get all their guys back, but having Whip completely made it worth it (basically a life gaining Evacuation). Anger of the Gods plays a nice game with it too. In that you can exile their little creatures (and yours but seriously who cares if you have big creatures). The thing with the devotion decks is they are usually low removal so Cerberus just walks past their ranks and does a lot of work. Demon/Domri create this squeeze with it.
The times I most have issues with the drawback is the other one. Turning off Ooze has been annoying when I can't race (but usually worse for the opponent). I usually don't mind it turning off my Whip for obvious reasons... Flesh//Blood is a bit unfortunate though, because his 6/6 evasive body is perfect target.. So many times I've wanted to Flesh//Blood a Desecration Demon on to it. 12 damage to the face plus 12/12 unblockable. But no deal. Oh well.
I haven't played against the control decks you are describing. Most of them are very threat light like 2 Aetherlings.. or Aetherling Elspeth. I could see it being annoying if you killed their big threat and they get them back, but more likely they are busy trying to kill your threats with Cerberus the end of that chain. Again maybe it's because outside of Demon (and arguably Aetherling, which is problematic anyway) you should be just bigger.. I mean the turn they tap out for fat is another threat you deploy. Dragon is not very scary. I guess you mean the more midrange decks like BR and BW. I group those largely like mono black (but worse)
I guess when it comes down to it later in the game I'd rather have Underworld Cerberus. Early game I'd rather have Varolz. I think both are reasonable as Cerberus doesn't stop you from Scavenging while it lives. Varolz is a mana sink whereas Cerberus is a big threat that might draw you a few cards. I like Cerberus a lot but I probably like it a lot the way I like Exava. Basically just a big hammer, it doesn't really have much finesse which might be needed for late game. I don't know if it fits every list. It's a lot better when you basically ensure it's atleast your 2nd or 3rd big threat. It's not good as your first.. More than likely they kill your first so that makes it atleast reasonable. If you curve out Desecration Demon, Cerberus, I mean does it matter if the opponent gets their creatures back.
I play Polukranos as removal mainly. It's decent at picking off Master of Waves.. Basically part of the key to beating mono blue and various weenie decks. We don't always generate enough mana to make it ideal mind you. But the fact the damage to opponents creatures is optional just makes it a big threat. Like if you attack into a Desecration Demon with 5 mana up they can't really block. I mean they can block and Doom Blade, but they could just have Doom Bladed (I realize investing the mana and getting time walked is bad, but it's that sort of thing). It's more of that big on board thing. It's Polukranos, and Desecration Demons I'm buying back with Cerberus. If I was in the market for a different 5 I'd probably play different 4 drops.
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Yeah I think my board needs work. Polish Crusher was ok. But I need to find room for Varolz again. I didn't like the 4th Domri that much since my plan against control ended up with less creatures. Maybe I should just 2 Varolz, 2 Golgari Charm instead of Domri, Crusher, and maybe even Abrupt Decay. Maybe Thoughtseize isn't good enough here.
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You're right, having the biggest creatures counts for Cerberus. I'm thinking of a build where I'd replace my Scavenging Oozes for a Cerberus and a 4th GCR (SB changes: -3Polis Crusher, +1Cerberus, +2Oozes for a total of 3 SB). Some kind of plan that combines GCR-based removal with Cerberus... But putting that much faith in a single Cerberus? I could always try replacing a GCR for a Cerberus... But GCR is often one of my few sources of removal what with the hate Domri entails.
I am that guy who needs to waste his resources on removing a DEsecration Demon. Like I said, black won't block my attackers, forcing me to use Domri instead. Normally that's resource waste, but taking out the biggest threat is often worth it. Which brings me back to the Cerberus and his need to recur the biggest threats to be relevant.
As for your deck, Stormbreath haste means everything once you realize that he's not hasting alone; and that if you do have two swings of a Dragon that's often one more than any other creature in this meta. The current meta is slower because everyone is packing removal. Hero's Downfall is becoming a common complaint, and like I said, the equivalent of a Cancel against us. Hence my original interest for the Cerberus.
I'd also recommend you going 4 Caryatids. The faster you can get your threats online, the better.
:symg::symr::symb: Domri Jund
Think about what creatures we'd be Bloodrushing. Or at least, that I'd be Bloodrushing. It won't save a TKA being blocked by something that deals 4 Power and above, but then again we use TKA as a form of removal anyhow. With Dreg Mangler, he trades one-for-one with Desecration Demon, and until I see a regular 7/7 in standard, that's the biggest non-monstrous creature in standard. With Exava... Well Exava has First strike, she wins.
Pyrewild remains relevant against Control until they bring in Elspeth. In this case, cast Pyrewild as a Creature and just make sure he doesnt Anger the Gods. I'm effectively losing a 4/4 Trampler for 4 mana, but I consider there's far too much Removal in this meta for such a vanilla creature. Didn't you say he was behind the curve anyhow?
Against mono-green Dev... Well that's where he fails hard. I would want to hard cast a 4/4 Trampler to push through Satyr tokens. I SB in Lifebane over Manglers, Varolz over Oozes, and that's not a lot of threats that don't get stonewalled. That new Naya Control deck is particularly infuriating because it uses Xanagos and Elspeth to consistently stonewall...
With 6 mana on the board (not that difficult), he's a funny answer to Desecration Demon. Sac, swing, recoup, cast, repeat...
:symg::symr::symb: Domri Jund
The problem with the mana is not having the colors and then playing a Scry land just to get them in the early turns. So even if you play Golgari Guildgate in a 2 color deck you probably have GB. You aren't forced into it. Being able to Thoughtseize on 1 could be nice. That might make a difference.
I'm sort of going back to where I started I guess with Troll, and Varolz.. I think the only reason I really wanted Domri was I was worried I couldn't be control. But maybe jamming a enough discard will do that. Mind you once you curve down like that Exava can be pretty sweet for those deal with me draws. I'm gonna see if a red splash has any merit. My biggest issue with Golgari is the do nothingness of it. It's too grindy. If red can offer some sort of gotcha I think it's potentially decent.
I played my latest list a bunch online and while I was doing well in the intended matchups I was losing to every random deck.. like I had a Boros play 2 games in a row beat me with T6 Elspeth into T7 Angel of Serenity.. In the 2nd game was able to overpower the first and lost to the 2nd Elspeth after the Angel of Serenity. It's just ridiculous for a deck like this ever to be able to get into those board states. I lost to a white weenie deck with a T1 Pantheon, T2, 2 Pantheon draw. Ok.. I mean stuff like that happens but I think we are into that dreaded white metagame you were worried about. I don't know if I'm particular worried about white weenie but I'm a bit frusterated where the deck doesn't do anything. Not that the grass is necessarily any greener. Maybe I just need to simplify. I think they built this format in a way the typically creature ramp into fat just doesn't work. I mean I will take a Mystic into Dreg Mangler but that's about as far as I want to go. I think the bigger body on board strategy that usually works for me is flawed here. Having less value in the format + Thoughtseize has made removal so good that it's overloaded. Just too much to deal with. Usually it's dead in some places so you can't play that game but that's not the case here. I have been saying this for a while and I keep getting pulled back in cause it's so close. But I need to start again from the ground up.
EDIT: Although I think Troll Varolz is pretty miserable too more I think of it. (For the same reasons I gave in the post about why I didn't like Troll)..
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The trolls aren't bad at all. Lotleth is 9 times out of 10 a three drop but it's not like you don't have any plays before then. You have thoughtseize, ultimate price, abrupt decay, golgari charm, your 1 drop creatures of choice etc. I just started running corpsejack menace as a 2 of; he has mad synergy with lotleth and ooze, especially with both of them out and almost always puts 2 counters on ex.1 when cast. It's not a gimmick.
Anyways I am rambling here but I just wanted chime in since you put a lot of work/thought into your decks and there's nothing worse than feeling like you're overcomplicating things. I always enjoy reading your posts, keep it up man.
On my end... I've been realizing that lifegain isn't what I'm going for in such a combo deck. My deck needs Domri the most, because if I don't have an offensive creature, I'm screwed. I realized that Pyrewild works along GCR, and I'm trying new refinements that eschew lifegain for more removal/draw. Something like, -2 Oozes, -1 Whip from my old maindeck, replaced by an Underworld Cerberus, a Pyrewild Shaman and an Into the Wilds. Because land clumps sucks for this deck and there's a modicum of synergy with Domri.
If you're going in more Golgari colors, you'll really appreate Lifebane Zombie. I think you'll have to go more black than green, though. At which point I'm afraid you'll fall into the old trap of differentiating yourself from the mo-black decks splashing green for Vraska/abrupt decay that are infesting standard.
:symg::symr::symb: Domri Jund
Sounds stupid but there's just so many threats this card neutralizes. It really helps keep the pressure off Domri, drawing hate and managing to stall many win conditions out there such as DD and Stormbreath. It's completely asynergistic with my deck, but what was I going to do? With Exava it gains haste, big woop... Growing to 3/4 with Kalonian Hydra was cool at times, but Kalonian Hydra itself was the finish: one hit with the Hydra was enough to send people down the red zone.
Deadly Recluse does everything expected from TKA except damage. The two toughness also makes it a non-factor against Precinct Captain and Fiendslayer Paladin... but only white weenie uses such cards. Red doesn't really have any efficient first strikers.
Since this is a new page and a lot has happened, I'll just post my new deck:
4 Elvish Mystic
4 Sylvan Caryatid
3 Deadly Recluse
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Dreg Mangler
2 Pyrewild Shaman
4 Exava, the Blood Witch
2 Reaper of the Wilds
4 Kalonian Hydra
4 Domri Rade
2 Putrify
1 Into the Wilds
Lands (24)
4 Stomping Ground
4 Blood Crypt
4 Overgrown Tomb
2 Temple of Abandon
2 Rakdos Guildgate
4 Forest
4 Swamp
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Varolz, the Scar-Striped
4 Lifebane Zombie
1 Putrify
1 Whip of Erebos
3 Slaughter Games
2 Underworld Cerberus
Breakdown: 4 Hydras + 2 Underworld Cerberus are our threats, our game enders. Pseudo-evasiveness with some manner of protection thrown in, wrapped in a package of pure power.
EDIT: I'm tired of losing all my game ones against aggro or red decks due to complete lack of lifegain so I'm hedging my bets. I'm moving my Cerberuses to the SB, to be brought in against pure control.
EDIT 2: GCR has been underperforming. Have replaced them with Reaper of the Wilds, and I removed a single Deadly Recluse for a second Pyrewild Shaman. The next thing I'll most probably edit will be the Mainboard inclusion of Whip of Erebos, for another removal-ish creature card in the SB against the Aggro match-up.
I have high hopes for singleton Pyrewild Shaman. I think it's better than Boon Satyr in our decks because the 2 mana bloorush cost makes it easier to hide. If I've always treated Bloodrush as pseudo-removal, then Pyrewild is a recuring pseudo-removal spell. Gives values to my recluses: I swing and either get my card back or they lose another creature.
I wonder if people realize how so many more battles are won on advantageous board states rather than life points; that's why I threw out my Oozes and Whip from the mainboard. For the purpose of drawing threats, I prefer Wilds to Underworld Connections because it simply filters off the non-threats without costing me anything. It's also easy to cast from a turn 2 Caryatid. Gotta think about them 4 drops.
:symg::symr::symb: Domri Jund
(Ash Zealot and Boros Reckoner)
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"For some of us, easier Magic is good Magic, but if you are one of those 'intelligent types,' feel free to play your Hive Mind mirrors. The rest of us are here for the fireworks." - Kent Ketter
Playing in Type 2...BGRJundHearted
4 Stomping Ground
4 Blood Crypt
4 Temple of Abandon
2 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
3 Forest
3 Swamp
4 Sylvan Caryatid
3 Scavenging Ooze
3 Varolz, the Scar-Striped
2 Lifebane Zombie
3 Desecration Demon
2 Polukranos, World Eater
1 Polis Crusher
1 Erebos, God of the Dead
1 Nylea, God of the Hunt
3 Underworld Cerberus
2 Stormbreath Dragon
1 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
3 Hero's Downfall
3 Domri Rade
2 Whip of Erebos
So the only things I'm still unsure about are:
Is the second Whip or third Cerberus needed? (Both of them are independently a question, not as a strangely-conjoined pair.)
Miser's of Polis Crusher and Nylea?
My reasonings for them are that we want to see a Cerberus at SOME point most games, as it's a self-contained engine (we play guys, they die in combat/to removal, we land a Cerberus, HOORAY) in this build, and the third facilitates this more than "hope". Along those lines are why I wanted the second Whip (increases odds of seeing it).
On other lines, the miser's Polis Crusher and Nylea are there to have trampling threats, including just giving trample to other threats. The Crusher could easily just become a second Nylea, but then I think I'd want another Erebos.
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"For some of us, easier Magic is good Magic, but if you are one of those 'intelligent types,' feel free to play your Hive Mind mirrors. The rest of us are here for the fireworks." - Kent Ketter
Playing in Type 2...BGRJundHearted
I'm going back and forth between Deadly Recluses and Thrill-Kill Assassin, between 3 copies and 4; because I know most decks now open with a Thoughtseize and having an early play matters in the long run.
Specifically? I think Whip is overrated and Cerberus might be more your style. You're not running Kalonian Hydra, so I think you get more value off Varolz scavenge than a single blow from a non-evasive beat. Cerberus itself offers evasiveness, in a fashion.
I can't approve of your misers copy, unless from the sideboard, and even then. You can't activate Nylea regularly and even I found Polis Crusher disappointing at times. I'd ditch Nylea, leave the miser's Crusher SB and decide from there.
:symg::symr::symb: Domri Jund
Yes it is the 4 drops that are underwhelming even when T 3 after a Caryatid. The average control/midrange deck is about 30% removal/discard which means more often then not they have an answer for your first 3 threats. Which means it takes usually 4 Demon/polukranos etc to get on the board by which time they are set up. It isn't that Caryatid is terrible but we have to spread out more must kill along the curve and play multiple spell early turns. The trick is to do so without curving down into low impact cards. Doing so just makes dork density a thing. The full 8 is probably incorrect if you only have 4 5drops as a curve topper. Domri equalizes this but Domri needs to do more than draw low impact cards. That's the danger of Thrill-Kill. Too easy for certain decks to ignore even it gives Domri more meaning. Deadly recluse in many ways is a further extension of this. Early fliers are definitely problematic, this will trade and with death touch you can shoot stuff with Domri. However you are playing a squire. It's a removal spell that can be played around since while the body is relevant to Domri and maybe Ghor Clan this card either is unblockable 1 power or on defense most of the time.
Since we play 2 drops. Throwing them under the bus against is reasonable anyway against aggro. What is more important is actually making a midrange or control opponent sweat at seeing them. That's a lot to ask of a 2 but we need 2-3 drops that do that. Multiple Caryatid draw doesn't. We'd need a nuts 5-6 that didn't just die to removal.
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So needless to say, Deadly Recluse was a bust. Trying my hand at everything, I went back to Lotleth Troll. Still experimenting with Pyrewild Shaman, it does have synergy with the Troll. If you really want to go 1-2-3, I'd suggest you follow the G/R midrange thread. They're looking at a monsters build with plenty of GCRs and Kalonian Boars for second turn 3/3. Talroma claims it stomps all over mono black but I fail to imagine how it'd beat a hand full of Toughseizes, Lifebane Zombies, removal and such. At which point you follow the G/B hexproof thread (Fear the Reaper), which I consider strictly better.
I guess every deck has its bad top decks, but Lotleth helps mitigate that as well. I was thinking of mainboarding Varolz for this same reason (mitigating bad topdecks) but my two drops need more work than my three drops. And yes, I will play Troll and Reaper at their given cost (not holding regen/hexp mana up) because every Hero's Downfall that hits a second/third turn play doesn't hit the rest of my stuff and because I simply cannot wait the extra turn for it to attack (that is to say, I'd play these cards without mana back-up only as a last resort).
4 Elvish Mystic
4 Sylvan Caryatid
3 Lotleth Troll
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Dreg Mangler
1 Pyrewild Shaman
4 Exava, Rakdos Blood Witch
3 Ghor-Clan Rampager
4 Kalonian Hydra
4 Domri Rade
2 Putrefy
1 Whip of Erebos
Lands (24)
4 Stomping Ground
4 Blood Crypt
4 Overgrown Tomb
2 Rakdos Guildgate
2 Temple of Abandon
4 Forest
4 Swamp
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Putrefy
3 Varolz, the Scar-Striped
4 Lifebane Zombie
3 Rakdos' Return
2 Underworld Cerberus
Cerberus goes in against mono-black, but I keep him SB because I was tired of losing to aggro decks game one. Rakdos Return over Slaughter Games as I realize how the Hydra pretty much offers inevitability, so might as well screw their hands up ASAP rather than grind against them. 2nd Putrify because I realized I was mostly using Domri as removal anyways, so who cares if I screw up a +1 or not. He never survives for long anyways and I need to kill those opposing creatures.
:symg::symr::symb: Domri Jund
I can somewhat believe that. I was on Kalonian Tusker a couple weeks ago. I still think it's better than Troll if we could support the mana. I played it at Game Day. Varolz is the real winner of the pile though. I think Varolz is better than both Lotleth Troll and Reaper of the Wilds. Reaper is kind of clunky. There is quite a cost to holding up hexproof mana.
Right now I'm back to trying to overload Removal. I'm working on decks that have Pack Rat, Desecration Demon, and Kalonian Hydra. The Rat and the Hydra both benefit from having mana early. Basically instead of trying to force through early damage which may get stifled I try to just have more threats than removal Spells.. Dreg Mangler and Varolz for support put a lot of pressure on. Basically no one can let the former 3 survive very long. They end games way too quickly so it doesn't take too much to over power a lot of decks. The tricky part is finding the right set of support cards. I am giving red a try but I think blue with Nightveil Specter(maybe even Thasa for the unblockable and Domri imitation) might be the right play. Funny enough I've finding Gaze of Granite main playable in the deck. It kills my own Rats but if they don't deal with the rats they are dead anyway. Most threats.. it seems to be a reasonable enough reset button.
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UGR Burning Wish Cobra Vintage
Get it? Ramp to 5, play Cerberus and either kill opponent or get cards back to reuse as either +1/+1 counters or extra rats. Varolz ensures you get full use off your mana dorks as Caryatid has the nasty habit of surviving when you want him as Troll/Rat enabler. He also acts as lightning rod against Detention Spheres and what-nots: saccing the Cerberus in response to ensure you get your cards back.
Best part: you can choose the 4 drop of your choice. Now I've been thinking about what that 4 drop should be, but I do know it should be the greatest threat I could get for 4 mana, so as to get the greatest value when it returns from the GY. I'm hesitating between Desecration, GCR, Reaper and Exava.
Exava has been a disappointment in that many decks mainboard 4 Desecration Demons and Exava can't blow past that. Demon itself is often a disappointment against faster Boros decks, I can't recommend him for your deck. I even thought about Rot farm Skeleton, which isn't such a bad idea against control! In short, I don't know what I want. I'll probably keep the Domri build as I'm starved for card draw, so I'll want as much creature-based removal as possible.
:symg::symr::symb: Domri Jund
As for the "best 4 drop" I think that a split between Polukranos and Desecration Demon (more Demons than legendary Hydras, I'd think), with potentially 10 4cmcs (or more!), and few 5cmc's and POSSIBLY 2 6cmcs.
Our biggest problem is the "new" RWB (or ANY) burn deck that's popping up, and how we approach that matchup. I'm not sure we have enough without Whip(s).
Oh, my username is the same on Xbox and Cockatrice, add me!
"For some of us, easier Magic is good Magic, but if you are one of those 'intelligent types,' feel free to play your Hive Mind mirrors. The rest of us are here for the fireworks." - Kent Ketter
Playing in Type 2...BGRJundHearted
Reaper/Underworld Jund
4 Desecration Demon
3 Elvish Mystic
4 Sylvan Caryatid
3 Reaper of the Wilds
2 Polukranos, World Eater
3 Lotleth Troll
4 Underworld Cerberus
3 Scavenging Ooze
Spells
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Dreadbore
2 Ultimate Price
1 Hero's Dwonfall
2 Domri Rade
Lands
4 Blood Crypt
4 Stomping Ground
3 Temple of Abandon
5 Forest
4 Overgrown Tomb
2 Swamp
2 Golgari Guildgate
Side
2 Vraska, The Unseen
1 Golgari Charm
1 Ultimate Price
4 Lifebane Zombie
1 Putrefy
2 Rakdos' Return
2 Primeval Bounty
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Polukranos, World Eater
It's a strange combo of green ramp w/ removal, w/ a lot of resilience to sweepers to pressure the hell out of esper. The biggest differences between my list and the original are the removal of Sire of Insanity and the adding of Lotleth Troll. Basically you're never happy to see Sire in your hand; it's only value comes as a very desperate play when you're behind. It's like drawing a suicide vest from your deck. The troll is quite the charming creature; a resilient blocker, naturally immune to much removal and can regen to go immune to the rest of it, and can eat additional mystics, caryatids, and even other trolls to get bigger and troll your opponent. Chances are if it doesn't kill your opponent, your Cerberus will be bringing back all Lotleth's food. You definitely want to slow roll a Cerberus versus a deck w/ Downfalls or Dreadbores to get the most value out of its effect; Reaper, Demon, Polukranos, and Troll are very capable of killing opponents on their own though. Ooze is very flexible, grizzly bear to late game janitor bear; clean out your opponents graveyard before taking them on a ride through Cerberus town.
It sides to more midrang-y versus some slower matchups.
p.s. I hate Dreg Mangler. It doesn't actually help versus any matchup, unlike Troll. Plus scavenge is a clunky and largely irrelevant ability.
UW Control (:symu: :symw:)
That said, she does seem pretty bonkers there, especially with her ultimate becoming actually threatening, where as she is pretty awful to try and ultimate in our lists.
Oh, my username is the same on Xbox and Cockatrice, add me!
"For some of us, easier Magic is good Magic, but if you are one of those 'intelligent types,' feel free to play your Hive Mind mirrors. The rest of us are here for the fireworks." - Kent Ketter
Playing in Type 2...BGRJundHearted
Or not.
4 Stomping Ground
4 Blood Crypt
4 Temple of Abandon
2 Mutavault
3 Forest
3 Swamp
4 Sylvan Caryatid
3 Scavenging Ooze
3 Varolz, the Scar-Striped
2 Lifebane Zombie
3 Desecration Demon
2 Polukranos, World Eater
1 Erebos, God of the Dead
1 Nylea, God of the Hunt
3 Underworld Cerberus
2 Stormbreath Dragon
1 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
1 Sire of Insanity
2 Mistcutter Hydra
3 Domri Rade
1 Whip of Erebos
1 Garruk, Caller of Beasts
I'll leave this to stew for a bit.
Oh, my username is the same on Xbox and Cockatrice, add me!
"For some of us, easier Magic is good Magic, but if you are one of those 'intelligent types,' feel free to play your Hive Mind mirrors. The rest of us are here for the fireworks." - Kent Ketter
Playing in Type 2...BGRJundHearted
4 Stomping Ground
4 Blood Crypt
4 Temple of Abandon
2 Mutavault
3 Forest
3 Swamp
4 Sylvan Caryatid
3 Scavenging Ooze
3 Varolz, the Scar-Striped
2 Lifebane Zombie
3 Desecration Demon
2 Polukranos, World Eater
1 Erebos, God of the Dead
1 Nylea, God of the Hunt
3 Underworld Cerberus
2 Stormbreath Dragon
1 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
1 Sire of Insanity
2 Mistcutter Hydra
3 Domri Rade
1 Whip of Erebos
1 Garruk, Caller of Beasts
I'll leave this to stew for a bit.[/QUOTE]
I love so many cards in this deck and the premise of Domri in a Jund shell. With that said, I think your deck is horrible, no offense intended. There is no removal until the SB. That really leaves a rough game against a LOT of decks. You don't even use 189 creatures except Polukranos. Which really loses versatility with no acceleration. It's basically a 4 mana 5/5. Nothing really special there.
The deck is chock full of high costed creatures and Caryatid is the only acceleration. I think it's mainly in there for mana fixing and it just doesn't do enough. It's very hard to win game one against aggro and then you have to hope to win the next 2. That's not a bet I want to try for a whole tourney.
There are 3 thoughtseizes but only one MD lifegain card. Oozes suck in a deck with no removal. Cerberus is just a 6/6 5 mana creature. That's not really using it's abilities to max benefit. Varolz also works much better with cheap high power creatures. There are none here. Its also used more as a blocker because you have nothing to keep the small creatures off your back.
This deck may work against control ok but control has much better card selection and once an Aetherling hits, you die. Your SB would just hope to hit relevant cards before their better card selection hits theirs. I wouldn't take that bet. Throw in your limited ability to interact with PWs, and this deck is just too disorganized to really do well.
4x tormented hero
4x rakdos cackler
4x rakdos shred freak
4x spike jester
3x mogis marauder
2x varolz
4x dreg mangler
3x exava
2x dreadbore
2x ultimate price
22 lands
Ill post the sideboard when i get home bc i dont remember all of it right now.
This list is ridiculously fast. Won against an Esper and Mono B matchups in less than 10 minutes the other night.
4 Stomping Ground
4 Blood Crypt
4 Temple of Abandon
2 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
3 Forest
3 Swamp
4 Sylvan Caryatid
3 Scavenging Ooze
3 Varolz, the Scar-Striped
2 Lifebane Zombie
3 Desecration Demon
2 Polukranos, World Eater
1 Erebos, God of the Dead
1 Nylea, God of the Hunt
3 Underworld Cerberus
2 Stormbreath Dragon
1 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
1 Sire of Insanity
3 Hero's Downfall
3 Domri Rade
1 Whip of Erebos
1 Garruk, Caller of Beasts
Is this configuration more to your liking? That's the beauty of this 75, is that you HAVE all the tools you could want at your disposal. The question is how did I skew my deck for game one configurations? I chose to build towards a control heavy/aggro moderate meta. The question isn't about winning game ones, it's about winning matches.
Oh, my username is the same on Xbox and Cockatrice, add me!
"For some of us, easier Magic is good Magic, but if you are one of those 'intelligent types,' feel free to play your Hive Mind mirrors. The rest of us are here for the fireworks." - Kent Ketter
Playing in Type 2...BGRJundHearted
I do like it better but there's some cards I just don't like in there either way. I don't like Cerberus or Varolz in this deck, and would rather have Ruric Thar, the 2 Lifebane and the Sire out of the board. Add 4 more removal(3 dreadbore/1 more abrupt) and maybe switch out the Varolz for Loltrolls(or something else) and your deck would look pretty good(IMO).
This is all just my personal belief but I did play your deck for a little while and it just never came together for me. I lost badly a few times to devotion decks when I just couldn't get removal at the right times. Since this deck is fairly slow, I never got off fast enough. Varolz usually was a speed bump and I had mana problems a few times which makes me wonder if another land would do more than Erebos.
Sorry that I'm picking your deck apart. I just liked some aspects of it and after testing some, this is what I noticed.