I was thinking about running a heavier permission style because i wanted more t2 action but i wanted t2 cards that do well against the entire field. I took out 2 downfalls 1 verdict and 1 d-sphere to fit my 2 drop action in. I think having 11 different 2 drop spells might be a little much, im thinking about cutting both of the syncopates for either the d-sphere + downfall or downfall + supreme verdict.
Another option would be to cut down on my 4 jaces moving it to 3 and running another 2cmc removal/permission or a dissolve.
I can't think of a match-up where you wouldn't want Detention Sphere can you explain why 3 over 4?
Detention Sphere is good as a four of in every match up. Against control there are a bunch of planeswalkers to deal with. MonoB you have underworld connections, Pack rats, Erebos, the Whip ,etc.
Against MonoU it's so important. Thassa, Bident, Master.
Against Aggro you can often 2-1 as they run four of each creature.
Against midrange, G/R for example so many walkers, big creatures and God's. Makes little sense to run less than four mainboard.
LSV did some good videos on Esper this weak and he says 4 Verdicts and 4 D-Spheres are MANDATORY. Unless there is a REALLY good reason, we shouldn't be shifting from that strategy.
Because I'm playing a more draw-go game, I'm playin more counters, I really want to go up to 7 counters main, I'm thinking about taking out a jace and something else.
Seems like this configuration is worth testing whilst there aren't many decks running Loxodon Smiter and Voice anymore. I didn't have good experiences with Ultimate Price, but I suppose it has gotten better since I was running it.
Ultimate doesn't hit the second main card in the format, and also quite an annoying threat to us, Mutavault. Still might be good, but I'm hesitant over it.
I don't know what would be best for this deck. I currently fancy the idea of running 0 Elspeth and Blood Barons, and two Aetherling. Replace those two cards with one land, and one Sphinx. Then replace the Detention Sphere with a Supreme Verdict; 3 Detention Spheres is probably best for a deck like this, but Supreme Verdict is almost always required. It's great against mid-range with their rampers, U with their devotion, aggro with their creatures. Too powerful to ignore.
Here's the sketchy part. I'd consider going balls deep on the plan. Drop Ultimate Price for a Thoughtseize(very strong as it is, and the ability to see one's hand in this type of deck is more valuable) and then one Devour Flesh for another Dissolve. I was considering saying the second Detention Sphere, but it's probably too good to not run 3.
As someone who plays Maze's End, and top 4ed with it at Theros Game Day, your best bet is to play a guy I can't handle (BBoV or Ætherling) forcing me to waste my Fogs. Also if you can get your card advantage engine (read: Jace) online before I start fetching gates you can possibly "race" me.
While Pithing Needle can be named against Maze's ability it's somewhat fragile to removal, and allows me to truly play a draw-go game.
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currently playing:
Standard UW Control UWB Control UB Control MODERN BRGJund X Affinity UWR Control
Detention Sphere is good as a four of in every match up. Against control there are a bunch of planeswalkers to deal with. MonoB you have underworld connections, Pack rats, Erebos, the Whip ,etc.
Against MonoU it's so important. Thassa, Bident, Master.
Against Aggro you can often 2-1 as they run four of each creature.
Against midrange, G/R for example so many walkers, big creatures and God's. Makes little sense to run less than four mainboard.
LSV did some good videos on Esper this weak and he says 4 Verdicts and 4 D-Spheres are MANDATORY. Unless there is a REALLY good reason, we shouldn't be shifting from that strategy.
It's a brick though vs Soldier of the Pantheon game 1. There are quite a few W/x aggro decks out there.
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currently playing:
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You may never ever play against it but a lot of us already have Jace, Memory Adept in the sideboard. That card is incredible versus Maze's End, also of course Needles (and Ashiok...)
Ultimate price is pretty good right now, there's not much it doesn't hit anymore. I like it for the ability to hit some monoblack creatures.
What do you think about me taking out blood barons for more counters/ things to do on their turn?
If I may ask, why the need to run more draw go? A lot of the best control cards right now can't be played on their turn. Do you just prefer that play-style?
There can be merit to being more draw go but I feel it will be missing the I stant speed draw early game. 4. Supreme Verdict will be necessary even in a draw go style deck imo. Personally if I would go this route the first things I would cut are some wincons for more reactive cards or draw spells. The next thing to cut would be dspheres for some more instant speed answers. The answers to add would most likely be things such as extra downfalls and or syncopate which act similarly to dsphere as being almost a catch all. Inspiation might be a consideration though its weak it makes your counters much stronger by allowing you have the option to draw if nothing needs to be answered that turn.
I like draw go its my favorite type of deck. Unfortunately it just seems like the tapout options just seem more versitile and mana effecient at the moment. If we can make draw go work I will be riding that train all day.
Except he didn't even want to run 4 Verdicts... Nice deck.
It's making cards that are normally easy to deal with difficult when you go light on verdicts and D-Spheres. There are so many aggro, Gruul, MonoU and Mono B decks packing a ton of creatures I'm just not seeing the big reason why not to load up on Verdict.
After trying this list for a while, I easily liked the way it moves away from committing more double black mana (save for a miser of Hero's Downfall) and utilizing Devour Flesh as its pseudo point removal in conjunction with Azorius Charm. The land configuration also surprisingly gives more breathing room for us to untap without shocking ourselves that much, and weakens the burning earth by a small degree compared to a 20 non-basic land config.
Sideboard is pretty stock like the previous lists, but this time, Thoughtseize joined the sb in response to an aggressive meta which is less if not effective to hyper aggressive decks like Rakdos.
Might as well drop the black and go u/w creatureless or singleton aetherling. Those lists are quite powerful with elixir of immortality to just cycle revelations and counters
So I've been testing different variations of this with very mixed results. I just get destroyed by dega midrange. I have a very strong aggro match up but midrange decks packed with value is a problem.
So I've been testing different variations of this with very mixed results. I just get destroyed by dega midrange. I have a very strong aggro match up but midrange decks packed with value is a problem.
I disagree that your list has a good aggro match-up. You may have had good results but that could be any number of things. Aggro is the biggest problem for control and you have removed some of the best answers to aggro. The match-up is still difficult even when running a lot of Verdicts and D-Spheres.
I disagree that your list has a good aggro match-up. You may have had good results but that could be any number of things. Aggro is the biggest problem for control and you have removed some of the best answers to aggro. The match-up is still difficult even when running a lot of Verdicts and D-Spheres.
Didn't know running 3 d-spheres and 4 verdicts wasn't running a lot. And why would it have a bad matchup against aggro when I was running 11 2cmc spells. I also disagree with you that aggro is our worst match up, aggro has been my easiest match up this far with both my draw-go and tap out varients. I definitely think I'm going back to the tap out version though, I don't have the 4th revelation so I can't really run draw-go to its full potential, plus tap out is just plain better atm.
Didn't know running 3 d-spheres and 4 verdicts wasn't running a lot. And why would it have a bad matchup against aggro when I was running 11 2cmc spells. I also disagree with you that aggro is our worst match up, aggro has been my easiest match up this far with both my draw-go and tap out varients. I definitely think I'm going back to the tap out version though, I don't have the 4th revelation so I can't really run draw-go to its full potential, plus tap out is just plain better atm.
Sorry I got confused, another person said "he (I assumed that was you) doesn't want to run 4 Supreme Verdicts". Was that not your deck he was referring to?
You said you didn't want to tap out so much and those (+Jace) are the main tap out spells...so which tap out spells were you proposing to cut?
RDW and fast aggro is typically the worst match-up for control and seems to be the same in this meta. I feel we can open a vs. or match-up thread to talk about this in any case.
Il-Dana, why are you posting your tap-out list in a thread about draw-go control?
Because I think it makes sense to lessen the tap lands to leave my lands open more effectively to respond, while effectively maintaining the black colors without worries of getting screwed. TS' list isn't a full draw-go either, so I really don't think this become a tap-out just because I'm using Divination rather than Thoughtseize main deck.
Don't let me count the instants present and in the end telling me its a tap out, since it doesn't really make sense to call a deck draw go when it is running more than 8 non-instant speed spells. No offense on TS, but I do believe its not a draw-go either, I just don't see any sense to question that since all those non-instant spell are really viable in this type of deck he wants to put together.
Just in case you wonder why I post this your so called TAP OUT list in a draw-go thread, man, there's not much of post when I wrote that, and I don't mind if the Mods are kind enough to transfer my post to other threads this time around that the primer thread is up here.
Might as well drop the black and go u/w creatureless or singleton aetherling. Those lists are quite powerful with elixir of immortality to just cycle revelations and counters
I like the idea of running UW with infinite Sphinx's of Revelation deck, but it really doesn't belong to the Esper thread if I post. Also, I'm sticking around with Esper since I'm seeing some developments in minimizing Black enough to make it perform perfectly just incase I need it. I still can't afford to not be able to answer cards like Stormbreath Dragon, Mistcutter Hydra and Nightveil Specter effectively. Black somehow increase my answers from those planeswalker if I want to, so yeah count me on the Esper wagon still, but building an Esper in an incomplete amount of Planeswalkers/Verdict/DetentionSphere seems to be wrong just to reach the thread's title "Draw-go".
Because I think it makes sense to lessen the tap lands to leave my lands open more effectively to respond, while effectively maintaining the black colors without worries of getting screwed. TS' list isn't a full draw-go either, so I really don't think this become a tap-out just because I'm using Divination rather than Thoughtseize main deck.
Don't let me count the instants present and in the end telling me its a tap out, since it doesn't really make sense to call a deck draw go when it is running more than 8 non-instant speed spells. No offense on TS, but I do believe its not a draw-go either, I just don't see any sense to question that since all those non-instant spell are really viable in this type of deck he wants to put together.
Just in case you wonder why I post this your so called TAP OUT list in a draw-go thread, man, there's not much of post when I wrote that, and I don't mind if the Mods are kind enough to transfer my post to other threads this time around that the primer thread is up here.
I like the idea of running UW with infinite Sphinx's of Revelation deck, but it really doesn't belong to the Esper thread if I post. Also, I'm sticking around with Esper since I'm seeing some developments in minimizing Black enough to make it perform perfectly just incase I need it. I still can't afford to not be able to answer cards like Stormbreath Dragon, Mistcutter Hydra and Nightveil Specter effectively. Black somehow increase my answers from those planeswalker if I want to, so yeah count me on the Esper wagon still, but building an Esper in an incomplete amount of Planeswalkers/Verdict/DetentionSphere seems to be wrong just to reach the thread's title "Draw-go".
I would have to agree. We haven't seen a list in this thread that resembles a Draw-Go deck. Way too many non-instant/non-flash cards to fall into that category.
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Another option would be to cut down on my 4 jaces moving it to 3 and running another 2cmc removal/permission or a dissolve.
2x Thoughtseize
1x Doom blade
2x Devour Flesh
1x Ultimate Price
3x Azorius Charm
2x Syncopate
2x Essence Scatter
2x Dissolve
4x Detention Sphere
2x Hero's Downfall
3x Jace, Architect of Thought
3x Supreme Verdict
1x Elspeth, Sun's Champion
3x Sphinx's Revelation
1x Aetherling
4x Hallowed Fountain
4x Godless Shrine
3x Watery Grave
4x Temple of Silence
4x Temple of Deciet
4x Island
3x Plains
1x Aetherling
1x Thoughtseize
2x Pithing Needle
2x Gainsay
2x Negate
2x Sin Collector
2x Doomblade
3x Soldier of the Pantheon
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=546505
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Detention Sphere is good as a four of in every match up. Against control there are a bunch of planeswalkers to deal with. MonoB you have underworld connections, Pack rats, Erebos, the Whip ,etc.
Against MonoU it's so important. Thassa, Bident, Master.
Against Aggro you can often 2-1 as they run four of each creature.
Against midrange, G/R for example so many walkers, big creatures and God's. Makes little sense to run less than four mainboard.
LSV did some good videos on Esper this weak and he says 4 Verdicts and 4 D-Spheres are MANDATORY. Unless there is a REALLY good reason, we shouldn't be shifting from that strategy.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=546505
What do you think about me taking out blood barons for more counters/ things to do on their turn?
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=546505
I don't know what would be best for this deck. I currently fancy the idea of running 0 Elspeth and Blood Barons, and two Aetherling. Replace those two cards with one land, and one Sphinx. Then replace the Detention Sphere with a Supreme Verdict; 3 Detention Spheres is probably best for a deck like this, but Supreme Verdict is almost always required. It's great against mid-range with their rampers, U with their devotion, aggro with their creatures. Too powerful to ignore.
Here's the sketchy part. I'd consider going balls deep on the plan. Drop Ultimate Price for a Thoughtseize(very strong as it is, and the ability to see one's hand in this type of deck is more valuable) and then one Devour Flesh for another Dissolve. I was considering saying the second Detention Sphere, but it's probably too good to not run 3.
As someone who plays Maze's End, and top 4ed with it at Theros Game Day, your best bet is to play a guy I can't handle (BBoV or Ætherling) forcing me to waste my Fogs. Also if you can get your card advantage engine (read: Jace) online before I start fetching gates you can possibly "race" me.
While Pithing Needle can be named against Maze's ability it's somewhat fragile to removal, and allows me to truly play a draw-go game.
currently playing:
Standard
UW Control
UWB Control
UB Control
MODERN
BRGJund
X Affinity
UWR Control
LEGACY
Dredge
R Burn
UWx Miracles
EDH
BRW Kaalia
______
Quotes:
My Magic Card nicknames.
It's a brick though vs Soldier of the Pantheon game 1. There are quite a few W/x aggro decks out there.
currently playing:
Standard
UW Control
UWB Control
UB Control
MODERN
BRGJund
X Affinity
UWR Control
LEGACY
Dredge
R Burn
UWx Miracles
EDH
BRW Kaalia
______
Quotes:
My Magic Card nicknames.
You may never ever play against it but a lot of us already have Jace, Memory Adept in the sideboard. That card is incredible versus Maze's End, also of course Needles (and Ashiok...)
If I may ask, why the need to run more draw go? A lot of the best control cards right now can't be played on their turn. Do you just prefer that play-style?
Why would we need to use it on Soldier? Sure occasionally a card can't be targeted but isn't that what the four Supreme Verdicts are for?
I like draw go its my favorite type of deck. Unfortunately it just seems like the tapout options just seem more versitile and mana effecient at the moment. If we can make draw go work I will be riding that train all day.
It's making cards that are normally easy to deal with difficult when you go light on verdicts and D-Spheres. There are so many aggro, Gruul, MonoU and Mono B decks packing a ton of creatures I'm just not seeing the big reason why not to load up on Verdict.
1 Aetherling
2 Blood Baron of Vizkopa
Planeswalkers: 5
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
4 Jace, Architect of Thought
Lands: 27
5 Island
4 Plains
3 Godless Shrine
4 Hallowed Fountain
4 Temple of Deceit
4 Temple of Silence
3 Watery Grave
4 Detention Sphere
4 Azorius Charm
3 Devour Flesh
3 Dissolve
1 Hero's Downfall
4 Sphinx's Revelation
2 Divination
4 Supreme Verdict
1 Pithing Needle
2 Blood Baron of Vizkopa
2 Doom Blade
4 Gainsay
1 Last Breath
1 Negate
2 Jace, Memory Adept
2 Thoughtseize
After trying this list for a while, I easily liked the way it moves away from committing more double black mana (save for a miser of Hero's Downfall) and utilizing Devour Flesh as its pseudo point removal in conjunction with Azorius Charm. The land configuration also surprisingly gives more breathing room for us to untap without shocking ourselves that much, and weakens the burning earth by a small degree compared to a 20 non-basic land config.
Sideboard is pretty stock like the previous lists, but this time, Thoughtseize joined the sb in response to an aggressive meta which is less if not effective to hyper aggressive decks like Rakdos.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=546505
I disagree that your list has a good aggro match-up. You may have had good results but that could be any number of things. Aggro is the biggest problem for control and you have removed some of the best answers to aggro. The match-up is still difficult even when running a lot of Verdicts and D-Spheres.
Didn't know running 3 d-spheres and 4 verdicts wasn't running a lot. And why would it have a bad matchup against aggro when I was running 11 2cmc spells. I also disagree with you that aggro is our worst match up, aggro has been my easiest match up this far with both my draw-go and tap out varients. I definitely think I'm going back to the tap out version though, I don't have the 4th revelation so I can't really run draw-go to its full potential, plus tap out is just plain better atm.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=546505
Sorry I got confused, another person said "he (I assumed that was you) doesn't want to run 4 Supreme Verdicts". Was that not your deck he was referring to?
You said you didn't want to tap out so much and those (+Jace) are the main tap out spells...so which tap out spells were you proposing to cut?
RDW and fast aggro is typically the worst match-up for control and seems to be the same in this meta. I feel we can open a vs. or match-up thread to talk about this in any case.
Because I think it makes sense to lessen the tap lands to leave my lands open more effectively to respond, while effectively maintaining the black colors without worries of getting screwed. TS' list isn't a full draw-go either, so I really don't think this become a tap-out just because I'm using Divination rather than Thoughtseize main deck.
Don't let me count the instants present and in the end telling me its a tap out, since it doesn't really make sense to call a deck draw go when it is running more than 8 non-instant speed spells. No offense on TS, but I do believe its not a draw-go either, I just don't see any sense to question that since all those non-instant spell are really viable in this type of deck he wants to put together.
Just in case you wonder why I post this your so called TAP OUT list in a draw-go thread, man, there's not much of post when I wrote that, and I don't mind if the Mods are kind enough to transfer my post to other threads this time around that the primer thread is up here.
I like the idea of running UW with infinite Sphinx's of Revelation deck, but it really doesn't belong to the Esper thread if I post. Also, I'm sticking around with Esper since I'm seeing some developments in minimizing Black enough to make it perform perfectly just incase I need it. I still can't afford to not be able to answer cards like Stormbreath Dragon, Mistcutter Hydra and Nightveil Specter effectively. Black somehow increase my answers from those planeswalker if I want to, so yeah count me on the Esper wagon still, but building an Esper in an incomplete amount of Planeswalkers/Verdict/DetentionSphere seems to be wrong just to reach the thread's title "Draw-go".
I would have to agree. We haven't seen a list in this thread that resembles a Draw-Go deck. Way too many non-instant/non-flash cards to fall into that category.