How do we feel about Plunge Into Darkness to dig for what we're looking for? Seems like a good alternative to Sign in Blood so that we can always dig for a relevant spell, and it would allow us to cut a couple of wincons as well.
How do we feel about Plunge Into Darkness to dig for what we're looking for? Seems like a good alternative to Sign in Blood so that we can always dig for a relevant spell, and it would allow us to cut a couple of wincons as well.
I assume you're running it in the Rakdos version
Without any testing I imagine it could be ok, but probably not great. It can dig very deep but it can make some of the D4's a little awkward, paying half of 4-6 life is pretty dangerous which happens enough as it is. Ontop of that, I can't help but feel that the rakdos version doesn't need the diging that badly, I only run 3 tendrils and dont really have many problems hiting them when I need them. the biggest probem I've found is dying to bolt/DRS by paying too much life especially after taking a creature beat or two.
I've found the Read the Bones to be ok most of the time, vs plunge it only digs 4 deep but it is card advantage and much nicer in setting up a combo turn or recovering from blowout. I'm not sure that read the bones is 'better' overall than plunge so next time I get a chance I'll give a 1/1 split a go.
EDIT:
How do you guys deal with wasteland? I've found it pretty devastating, I guess I could try upping the land-count but without being able to run fetches or basics I don't see it helping much.
I imagine Wasteland could be a huge beating for decks running the sac lands since you have to wait a full turn before you can even use them. I think improvements to the mana base are the very first thing that should be done to this deck once you have the funds.
i'm not sure it's an improvement.
strenght of saclands tendrils resides in sacland producing 2 manas without that you're too slow and waste hurts you the same with saclands or m10 duals as it'll be rare to produce R and B mana from 1 land
It's a tradeoff. The sac lands are much more vulnerable to Wasteland since you never get to use them before the land is blown away. The weakness of the sacland list is that you literally do nothing on turn one and that is an extremely dangerous proposition in a combo-heavy metagame (and Legacy in general). Even against non-combo decks like Delver I would really like to get off a turn one Duress or Cabal Therapy so I can ensure my opponent doesn't have a Force of Will waiting for me on turn two.
It's a tradeoff. The sac lands are much more vulnerable to Wasteland since you never get to use them before the land is blown away. The weakness of the sacland list is that you literally do nothing on turn one and that is an extremely dangerous proposition in a combo-heavy metagame (and Legacy in general). Even against non-combo decks like Delver I would really like to get off a turn one Duress or Cabal Therapy so I can ensure my opponent doesn't have a Force of Will waiting for me on turn two.
Duress/Cabal rips off SLT when you maindeck them IMO... I prefer the risky way, with higher T2 kills (or almost-). In addition, running no blue cripples your digging engines, or some of them at least. I agree some more should more ETB untapped lands, and I want to test 2 Crystal Veins or Cities of Brass along with the usual 12 lands.
Untapped lands + 8 maindeck discards + 2 colors = budget Doomsday check it out if you didn't yet. It's quite related to SLT, and some of the core is the same.
i'm not sure it's an improvement.
strenght of saclands tendrils resides in sacland producing 2 manas without that you're too slow and waste hurts you the same with saclands or m10 duals as it'll be rare to produce R and B mana from 1 land
I agree. The strength of this deck is with the saclands producing 2 colors when sacced. I'm often able to start a combo with just a single Sulfur Vent or Geothermal Crevice. Getting hit by Wasteland once is ok. Though it starts to look grim if opponent has 2 or more wastelands in their hand.
As someone really enjoying the deck and strongly considering building the cheapest version of the deck as a start, then proceeding to expand from there, what would be the first addition to the $60 "budget" version of the deck (roughly $90 on StarCity right now)?
Burning Wishes are currently 15-20 bucks each for a MP, and up for better quality, and I'd have to get two, or I'd be better just running 4 Tendrils maindeck, correct?
Besides the Wishes, do any other additions/changes standout from this list?
That's a nice looking 14 land version. You can upgrade all your Sign In Blood to Night's Whisper. It doesn't happen often, but the BB cost of Sign has sometimes caused me to fizzle. 1B is much easier to cast than BB.
4 Ideas Unbound seems too much. I'd suggest trying to cut one of them, and replace it with a 4th Chromatic Sphere or a single Preordain.
I've actually been considering switching out the Sign in Bloods for Brainstorms, and then taking out an Ideas and a copy of Emtpy the Warrens for some Duress's mainboard.
It appears myself and others have been using Ebon Stronghold in the BR list when Peat Bog is the better choice. Just made that discovery yesterday and wanted to share.
It appears myself and others have been using Ebon Stronghold in the BR list when Peat Bog is the better choice. Just made that discovery yesterday and wanted to share.
Arguably.....
If stronghold is your first land played. Turn 2/3/4 may be used to set up chromatic's, duress/therapies or night's whispers. And only getting two use's from Peat Bog can be problematic.
There is some merit to it, as you can save a turn probably often enough by being able to duress/sphere on the same turn, but as soon as you have to play 3 things, i think it falls off in the long run.
Also, against control and grindy games, you will find the limited use of peat bog problematic.
If stronghold is your first land played. Turn 2/3/4 may be used to set up chromatic's, duress/therapies or night's whispers. And only getting two use's from Peat Bog can be problematic.
There is some merit to it, as you can save a turn probably often enough by being able to duress/sphere on the same turn, but as soon as you have to play 3 things, i think it falls off in the long run.
Also, against control and grindy games, you will find the limited use of peat bog problematic.
A fair point. This may mean running the full four Ebon Stronghold and keeping Peat Bog as maybe a one or two-of.
I'm making my first foray into combo in legacy, and I'm thinking of getting this cause it looks amazingly fun =)
Now, I don't know about the different-budgeted builds, so could one of you more experienced guys tell me what the best possible (most expensive?) build is? I have basically everything storm-related except for LEDs. The card I'm most wondering about is Chrome Mox, if it is any good in this.
Chrome mox is only good in TES/ANT. It doesn't tend to be useful in budget builds because you can't capitalize off the speed, or use it like TES/ANT do post ad'nauseum.
I've been goldfishing the following list and have enough confidence in it now to sleeve it up for some real-world testing. Unfortunately Legacy is dead in my area beyond a couple of people so I won't get to run it against a gauntlet, but I only really built this deck for pick-up games anyway.
In a goldfish this deck wins by turn three ~95% of the time, and turn two wins occur ~20-25% of the time. I've really liked Plunge into Darkness during testing. If I need a Past in Flames to continue the storm count or I need to find my Tendrils it does it for me. Worst case scenario is that I whif but draw a spell that can dig like Infernal Contract or Faithless Looting, but I have yet to miss with it.
Imo, i think ETW would be a good include over plunge. It might up you consistency for large turn 2 plays without the risk of plunge. And may also fare better against real world decks.
It's worth testing. Otherwise, I feel this deck begins to lose the redundancy and also, you limit yourself having to be able to fully storm out, where oftentimes turn 2 empty the warren with a storm of 5+ETW (12) tokens, can go the distance.
Also, I think ETW has become stronger and stronger as cards like Engineered Explosives don't see the same amount of play they use to.
Not to mention, plunge is an extremely large investment, and if it doesn't pan out, you lose for sure.
My only beef with ETW is that it doesn't win on the spot. I'm a worst-case scenario kind of guy and I'd hate to get blown out by an impromptu board wipe. That said, the ability to go off on turns one and two is quite enticing, especially on the play. I think it would be a great idea to have a transformational sideboard bringing in ETW to win faster and dodge hate like Leylines or Iona.
The three copies of Past in Flames do a great job of helping get the storm count to ten consistently. Also, Increasing Vengeance copying Seething Song or Cabal Ritual with threshold is just awesome.
Anybody still playing this deck? Thread seems barren lol...played a version in a 8-man tourney today at my shop going 2-1. Lost to merfolk because I havent played Legacy in ages, so I shaking cobwebs out by making mistakes. Beat Bant Slivers and White Weenie...highlight of the day was making 14 goblin tokens on turn 1 against White fun times
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Anybody still playing this deck? Thread seems barren lol...played a version in a 8-man tourney today at my shop going 2-1. Lost to merfolk because I havent played Legacy in ages, so I shaking cobwebs out by making mistakes. Beat Bant Slivers and White Weenie...highlight of the day was making 14 goblin tokens on turn 1 against White fun times
I play it on mtgo a fair bit, I know of a few more guys mucking around with the deck a fair bit in paper, I don't think the deck is dead, just this thread.
Sac Land Tendrils is easily the least competitive of my Legacy legal Storm decks, so it's pretty much been relegated to casual status. I haven't played it in a tournament in forever, in fact I don't even have a sideboard built for it right now. I can tell you that it's undefeated against my buddies kitchen table mono Green Stompy deck though!
It also doesn't help that the fundamental parts that make up the deck - cheap draw power, cantrips, rituals, Storm spells, etc, are pretty much exactly the kind of cards that Wizards doesn't want in Modern, and so it's pretty unlikely we'll see any new toys for a while.
I can't play the deck because I can't get anyone in my area to play Legacy. There are literally no Legacy events within 100 miles of me ever, and I can't convince anyone to start playing even at the kitchen table.
Umm...yeah. I fell off of my chair looking at this list. It seems so....I don't know...avant garde? I can't think of a better word to describe it. The field was filled with Death and Taxes, UW Jace, and tons of Delver with True-Name. I figured I'd show you guys here.
Demigod of Revenge is literally one of my favorite cards...but here? I guess it combos well with Faithless Looting once you start getting your combo going to beat Leyline of Sanctity.
I actually like that list. Demigod is just his alternate win condition from the sideboard and also happens to compliment Tendrils. He can pitch a Demigod with Looting, then if he starts to run out of steam he can just cast another Demigod, Tendrils for 10, then swing for 10 more. This way he has some immunity to Surgical Extraction, Meddling Mage, and Slaughter Games.
I assume you're running it in the Rakdos version
Without any testing I imagine it could be ok, but probably not great. It can dig very deep but it can make some of the D4's a little awkward, paying half of 4-6 life is pretty dangerous which happens enough as it is. Ontop of that, I can't help but feel that the rakdos version doesn't need the diging that badly, I only run 3 tendrils and dont really have many problems hiting them when I need them. the biggest probem I've found is dying to bolt/DRS by paying too much life especially after taking a creature beat or two.
My list is:
4 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Seething Song
2 Read the Bones
4 Manamorphose
3 Faithless Looting
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Night's Whisper
4 Infernal Contract
2 Past in Flames
3 Tendrils of Agony
Land
4 Dwarven Ruins
4 Ebon Stronghold
4 Gemstone Mine
2 Geothermal Crevice
I've found the Read the Bones to be ok most of the time, vs plunge it only digs 4 deep but it is card advantage and much nicer in setting up a combo turn or recovering from blowout. I'm not sure that read the bones is 'better' overall than plunge so next time I get a chance I'll give a 1/1 split a go.
EDIT:
How do you guys deal with wasteland? I've found it pretty devastating, I guess I could try upping the land-count but without being able to run fetches or basics I don't see it helping much.
Personally, I just hope that they don't get more than one Wasteland in the opening 7. Or that my opening 7 has 2 sac lands or 2 lotus petal.
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In light of that, here's my latest version:
4 Lotus Petal
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Faithless Looting
4 Duress
2 Cabal Therapy
4 Rite of Flame
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Manamorphose
4 Sign in Blood
3 Past in Flames
4 Tendrils of Agony
4 Sulfurous Springs
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
4 Gemstone Mine
3 City of Brass
It's a tradeoff. The sac lands are much more vulnerable to Wasteland since you never get to use them before the land is blown away. The weakness of the sacland list is that you literally do nothing on turn one and that is an extremely dangerous proposition in a combo-heavy metagame (and Legacy in general). Even against non-combo decks like Delver I would really like to get off a turn one Duress or Cabal Therapy so I can ensure my opponent doesn't have a Force of Will waiting for me on turn two.
Duress/Cabal rips off SLT when you maindeck them IMO... I prefer the risky way, with higher T2 kills (or almost-). In addition, running no blue cripples your digging engines, or some of them at least. I agree some more should more ETB untapped lands, and I want to test 2 Crystal Veins or Cities of Brass along with the usual 12 lands.
Untapped lands + 8 maindeck discards + 2 colors = budget Doomsday check it out if you didn't yet. It's quite related to SLT, and some of the core is the same.
Commander: Child of Alara BURGW, Adeliz, the Cinder Wind UR
Tiny Leaders: Gwafa, Hazid Profiteer UW
Regular Pauper: Stompy G, Mono-G Tron G, Infect G
I agree. The strength of this deck is with the saclands producing 2 colors when sacced. I'm often able to start a combo with just a single Sulfur Vent or Geothermal Crevice. Getting hit by Wasteland once is ok. Though it starts to look grim if opponent has 2 or more wastelands in their hand.
Nexus MTG News // Nexus - Magic Art Gallery // MTG Dual Land Color Ratios Analyzer // MTG Card Drawing Odds Calculator
Want to play a UW control deck in modern, but don't have jace or snaps?
Please come visit us at the Emeria Titan control thread
Burning Wishes are currently 15-20 bucks each for a MP, and up for better quality, and I'd have to get two, or I'd be better just running 4 Tendrils maindeck, correct?
Besides the Wishes, do any other additions/changes standout from this list?
4 Lotus Petal
4 Rite of Flame
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
[23 Cantrips/Draw]
4 Chromatic Star
3 Chromatic Sphere
4 Ponder
4 Manamorphose
4 Sign in Blood
4 Ideas Unbound
4 Tendrils of Agony
3 Empty the Warrens
[14 Lands]
4 Sulfur Vent
4 Geothermal Crevice
4 Ancient Spring
2 Gemstone Mine
4 Silence
3 Duress
3 Echoing Truth
3 Pyroblast
2 Shattering Spree
That's a nice looking 14 land version. You can upgrade all your Sign In Blood to Night's Whisper. It doesn't happen often, but the BB cost of Sign has sometimes caused me to fizzle. 1B is much easier to cast than BB.
4 Ideas Unbound seems too much. I'd suggest trying to cut one of them, and replace it with a 4th Chromatic Sphere or a single Preordain.
Nexus MTG News // Nexus - Magic Art Gallery // MTG Dual Land Color Ratios Analyzer // MTG Card Drawing Odds Calculator
Want to play a UW control deck in modern, but don't have jace or snaps?
Please come visit us at the Emeria Titan control thread
Arguably.....
If stronghold is your first land played. Turn 2/3/4 may be used to set up chromatic's, duress/therapies or night's whispers. And only getting two use's from Peat Bog can be problematic.
There is some merit to it, as you can save a turn probably often enough by being able to duress/sphere on the same turn, but as soon as you have to play 3 things, i think it falls off in the long run.
Also, against control and grindy games, you will find the limited use of peat bog problematic.
UBRWDDFTWBRU
UBRWGTESGWRBU
A fair point. This may mean running the full four Ebon Stronghold and keeping Peat Bog as maybe a one or two-of.
These were my thoughts exactly.
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Chrome mox is only good in TES/ANT. It doesn't tend to be useful in budget builds because you can't capitalize off the speed, or use it like TES/ANT do post ad'nauseum.
UBRWDDFTWBRU
UBRWGTESGWRBU
4 Lotus Petal
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Faithless Looting
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Manamorphose
3 Plunge into Darkness
2 Increasing Vengeance
2 Infernal Contract
4 Seething Song
3 Past in Flames
3 Tendrils of Agony
4 Ebon Stronghold
4 Sulfur Vent
4 Sulfurous Springs
3 Geothermal Crevice
In a goldfish this deck wins by turn three ~95% of the time, and turn two wins occur ~20-25% of the time. I've really liked Plunge into Darkness during testing. If I need a Past in Flames to continue the storm count or I need to find my Tendrils it does it for me. Worst case scenario is that I whif but draw a spell that can dig like Infernal Contract or Faithless Looting, but I have yet to miss with it.
It's worth testing. Otherwise, I feel this deck begins to lose the redundancy and also, you limit yourself having to be able to fully storm out, where oftentimes turn 2 empty the warren with a storm of 5+ETW (12) tokens, can go the distance.
Also, I think ETW has become stronger and stronger as cards like Engineered Explosives don't see the same amount of play they use to.
Not to mention, plunge is an extremely large investment, and if it doesn't pan out, you lose for sure.
UBRWDDFTWBRU
UBRWGTESGWRBU
The three copies of Past in Flames do a great job of helping get the storm count to ten consistently. Also, Increasing Vengeance copying Seething Song or Cabal Ritual with threshold is just awesome.
I play it on mtgo a fair bit, I know of a few more guys mucking around with the deck a fair bit in paper, I don't think the deck is dead, just this thread.
It also doesn't help that the fundamental parts that make up the deck - cheap draw power, cantrips, rituals, Storm spells, etc, are pretty much exactly the kind of cards that Wizards doesn't want in Modern, and so it's pretty unlikely we'll see any new toys for a while.
4 Geothermal Crevice
4 Sulfur Vent
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Dark Ritual
4 Past in Flames
4 Night's Whisper
4 Sign in Blood
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Lotus Petal
4 Rite of Flame
4 Seething Song
4 Faithless Looting
4 Manamorphose
4 Tendrils of Agony
4 Duress
3 Lightning Bolt
4 Pyroblast
Umm...yeah. I fell off of my chair looking at this list. It seems so....I don't know...avant garde? I can't think of a better word to describe it. The field was filled with Death and Taxes, UW Jace, and tons of Delver with True-Name. I figured I'd show you guys here.
Demigod of Revenge is literally one of my favorite cards...but here? I guess it combos well with Faithless Looting once you start getting your combo going to beat Leyline of Sanctity.
This deck seems awesome. I'm in shock.
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