Something I noticed: This Day has been going on for close to a month now, and the game really needs to move so that we can maintain our pace. The lynch has been stalled like this for Days; even though I don't particularly want Rhand to claim (since I think he's probably town), he should claim so that we can move the game forward with a gan_dan lynch. I don't want for us to lose our pace.
hans is.. ugh. I'm looking at his recent posts and really want to say that he's changing up his playstyle and actually Doing Things but when I'm actually reading his recent posts it's exactly the opposite.
He fencesits on Rhand in #239, and his recent posts are kind of a "lack of town points" thing. However, he has a crazy gambit to pull but is holding off on that fact, and I know that hans can be extremely scummy but usually pulls crazy stunts like that as town. I'd declare this still as a leaning scum read but I wanted to list my thoughts on hans.
@Cythare
I'm currently null on fulcrum, and it's strange because I can usually read her well in her home site but somehow can't read her here. I'll see if I can get a PBPAish thing soon, similar to what I did with you.
Thanks for the buddying answer.
@fulcrum
Because rezombied is inexperienced and I don't think he's at the level in which he would start to imitate town tells as scum. In addition, I don't think he's encountered that type of lack of self-awareness before.
--
I want everyone's thoughts on ganderin_dan and I want to know why we're not lynching him today. I should have a case incoming.
The case on gan_dan is rather simple given that he has eight posts, and most of them are V/LAish stuff.
The first post is rvs-abstain, which is null for him.
His #38 felt off to me because he went through the trouble of searching through all of his games to reply to Cantrip. If I was in gan_dan's shoes and Cantrip asked me that question I'd probably list out some game titles, not go through that much trouble of searching through and finding all of my games. gan_dan's answer feels rather overexplanatory to me.
He then uses "really noob logic+selfawareness" to townread Rodemy, which I find strange. I'm surprised that gan_dan is townreading Rodemy this early in the game, where most people would be rather wary of him after Apocalypse. It feels like an early clear to me.
His vote on Kosakosa also feels overexplanatory. I can't really explain how for those who don't see it, but I remember pre-replacement I was looking at that post and watching to spit out something.
His response to Cythare:
Quote from gan_dan »
You've also been around here long enough to realize how RVS works. Find a better excuse.
is unusually aggressive from what I know of dan.
His next post is also fairly confrontational:
Quote from gan_dan »
Don't try and twist my words (considering I don't know how you'd come remotely close to that conclusion othwerise).
ganderin_dan's next post also feels weird. First off, it's mostly a "question everyone" post. The "town/scum" of dkings reads out of left field, given that gan_dan never mentioned dkings before that, and the tone feels rather... conciliatory? It feels kind of reaching out for people to help, much different from his aggressive/confrontational stance earlier.
Quote from gan_dan »
Confirm I'm not just making this up? 3 votes in RVS always sets off alarm bells.
Quote from gan_dan »
Since the two of you have been through this type of situation before, how do you propose we approach it?
gan_dan's next post (#77) returns the snarky, aggressive feel I've been getting from gan_dan's posts ("Don't twist my words!").
His next and final post (#100) is a treasure trove.
He asks dkings for his town/scum games, but he never really goes into the reason why he wanted those, given that it came from left field. He says to Kosa, "Guess we're at an impasse" with no attempt to advance his wagon - he's content to let it stall.
The thing I like here and gives him minor town points is the followup on Cantrip's question - but I've done it as scum before, and gan_dan is the type of player who would observe the current trend of following up questions in MTGS meta - admittedly started by pinkys_brain on me in Presidential (where I was scum and playing terribly), and I've been looking for instances of it ever since.
I have no idea why he calls Shockwave noob scum but he doesn't vote him - he keeps his vote on the "We're at an impasse" Kosa.
And Arian mentions that he's playing similarly to his scum meta in Survival Horror as well, which I wholeheartedly agree with. I think he's a player similar to me; we both play very well as town and are amazingly bad at being scum.
Pleasantville Mafia -> lowest poster
Dr. Polyopticon (town) -> 5th highest poster
Survival Horror (scum) -> one of the lowest posters before replacing out
Cyberspace Mafia (town) -> 6th highest poster (he replaced in, even!)
The major thing that stuck out at me this game as being really similar to apocalypse mafia was his self vote.
From reading D1 of that TMNT game, there were some noticeable things that I found very different about his play:
He was brought to 4 votes pretty early in the game, but he remained pretty calm during that, and then people saw that he was genuinely trying to scumhunt. What I find odd is that he claims to have "learned from his mistakes" which is why he doesn't "lash out" because doing so makes him appear scummy, according to him. However, I sensed frustration in this game when people started voting for him, and he self-voted, which really doesn't accomplish anything beneficial. So why wouldn't he have remained calm in this game if he did "learn from his mistakes" like he said he did?
Another thing that I found interesting was that in TMNT, he immediately pointed out that "it was odd" that a player (flubbucket) didn't vote in his first post, but he never put down a vote. At the end of the game, that player (flubbucket) flipped town. In this game, he also said that my lack of an RVS vote "was odd" but what's different is that he accompanied it with a vote. So I'm wondering how he came to believe that not voting in RVS was a scumtell?
I pointed out the self-vote and TMNT wagon -> different response before as well. Good catch on the vote vs. lack of vote coming out of RVS.
Something I noticed: This Day has been going on for close to a month now, and the game really needs to move so that we can maintain our pace. The lynch has been stalled like this for Days; even though I don't particularly want Rhand to claim (since I think he's probably town), he should claim so that we can move the game forward with a gan_dan lynch. I don't want for us to lose our pace.
I was pretty surprised to come back from a week of V/LA and only be like 20 posts behind. As for the stall/pace of the game, there isn't much we can do to fight off the holidays plus 3 D1 replace-outs.
I don't like where your head is in the second half of that quote, though. You're assuming Rhand's claim will automatically stop his lynch from going forward which is exactly what he wants us to think, and I think you may be falling victim to his buddying attempts. He has subtly buddied you since he replaced in (basically /barned all of your points/stances and followed you onto gan_dan).
As for the gan_dan case, I've never played with him but the meta argument you and Arian presented looks to have some concrete evidence. I don't agree with your assessment of the RVS-abstaining explanation, though. It seems nit-picky, especially when taking into account the substantial number of players who believe that avoiding RVS is a scumtell. I'd prefer to lynch the Rodemy/Rhand (behavioral read) slot toDay and deal with this (lack of behavior read) toMorrow.
Tanarin:
I like this post. Attempting to get Rodemy to focus and explain his reasons for going after Hans. Town want people on track. I would expect scum to continue to let him go on and on about RVS votes.
I don't agree with everything in this post, but it shows that Tan is thinking things through objectively. He gives clear reasoning and is having a conversation instead of just immediately attacking.
fulcrum: Post #46 provides excuses for not wanting to vote Kosa or Rodemy. If either flip scum at any point, fulcrum is a good place to look.
This is too obvious to be scum. In addition to the other reasons that fulcrum provides later, she is tying herself to too many players to be scum.
Shockwave: I agree with most people in their dislike of this post from iRebel. But his rebuttal here sounds very much like it's coming from town.
Conceding a point is usually a town trait. In my experience, scum tend to just ignore them.
dkings: Attempting to analyze the quick RVS wagon is protown.
Is asking questions and actually following up on them as seen here.
Kosa: Kosa's post here shows a town mindset in looking into why Dkings didn't vote someone when he agreed with a case.
Kosa being levelheaded? Weird, but this post is very reasonable. Arianrhod: I like most of Arian's lines of thought here, but I'm concerned with his last paragraph. It's extremely fence-sitty and provides an out to either vote or stay off of Kosa's wagons later.
This post gives a good explanation of his reasoning for disliking iRebel's post.
This post is really agressive. And it doesn't seem like Arian's town game. Hans:
I like this post from Hans
A general lack of content leads me to lean scum here. More Null than anything though.
Cythare: ... I have nothing that makes me think one alignment or the other and that leads me to leaning scum.
Rezombied: Retroactively barning a wagon to make the jump on seem townie plus most of his reads being gut reads is screaming scum.
This post actually leads me to believe that the scum don't have the wincon (although it is possible.) I don't recall a game lately where someone specifically asked for it in that manner, and this post actually furthers that belief. Refuses to give reasons for his "gut" reads.
Rhand:
Claimed that his vote was not an RVS vote, which implies that he believes Hans to be scum but then unvotes him due to it being L-3. This implies an inconsistent mindset.
Rodemy self voting is reminiscent of his scum performance in Apocalypse.
Rhand comes in and goes after (no offense) the easiest other lynch in the game by going after dkings. He uses his wagon analysis as the reasoning for voting him which doesn't make sense to me.
Rhand has also put off claiming a ton.
Word twisting here. dkings said that he was waiting for a response BEFORE he considers unvoting and Rhand uses that to say that he was ALREADY considering it.
fulcrum: Post #46 provides excuses for not wanting to vote Kosa or Rodemy. If either flip scum at any point, fulcrum is a good place to look.
This is too obvious to be scum. In addition to the other reasons that fulcrum provides later, she is tying herself to too many players to be scum.
Rhand:
Claimed that his vote was not an RVS vote, which implies that he believes Hans to be scum but then unvotes him due to it being L-3. This implies an inconsistent mindset.
Rodemy self voting is reminiscent of his scum performance in Apocalypse.
Rhand comes in and goes after (no offense) the easiest other lynch in the game by going after dkings. He uses his wagon analysis as the reasoning for voting him which doesn't make sense to me.
Rhand has also put off claiming a ton.
Word twisting here. dkings said that he was waiting for a response BEFORE he considers unvoting and Rhand uses that to say that he was ALREADY considering it.
for the stall/pace of the game, there isn't much we can do to fight off the holidays plus 3 D1 replace-outs.
I don't like where your head is in the second half of that quote, though. You're assuming Rhand's claim will automatically stop his lynch from going forward which is exactly what he wants us to think, and I think you may be falling victim to his buddying attempts. He has subtly buddied you since he replaced in (basically /barned all of your points/stances and followed you onto gan_dan).
As for the gan_dan case, I've never played with him but the meta argument you and Arian presented looks to have some concrete evidence. I don't agree with your assessment of the RVS-abstaining explanation, though. It seems nit-picky, especially when taking into account the substantial number of players who believe that avoiding RVS is a scumtell. I'd prefer to lynch the Rodemy/Rhand (behavioral read) slot toDay and deal with this (lack of behavior read) toMorrow.
You have no behavioral read on ganderin_dan? Were you convinced by my case?
You're probably right on Rhand's buddying to me, but I still don't think he is all that likely to be scum. None of his replacing-in posts gave me bad vibes, and I liked the way he stalled out the claim by stating he's a strong power role. In addition, I don't like how fast his wagon came out.
I get a scummy vibe from EtR in this post, bussing Rhand, and maybe even fulcrum.
'fulcrum is being too scummy to be scum'
'If Rhand is scum look at fulcrum.'
Thinks Rhand is scum.
@Proph: How many games have you done with gan_dan?
I've been in two games with gan_dan (Dr. P and Survival Horror before we joint-replaced out). EtR is absolutely scum. In mafiascum, I played a Newbie game where my most solid scumread got replaced by a competent player and he proceed to +town it up, so we didn't lynch him until Day 2 (and even then the cop had to claim). I'm not letting this situation repeat itself.
[
But it *isn't* an indication of scum by itself. It could also be an indication that he is improving as a player, and the way you nonchalantly agreed with it looked (and still looks) bad.
That would be why I said it may be indicative of scum.
Ugh, this is like the fencesittiest thing I've read in a long time.
Now, you're just bull****ting me. Really, I'm fencesitting because I agreed with iRebel's assessment of hans playstyle change?
I'll admit that was a hyperbole, but saying something akin to "this could be indicative of scum (but it also could not be!)" is about as useful as saying "this is a null tell" while also being more frustrating because it could be misconstrued or referred to differently later. Statements like that are a peeve of mine because when confronted about it or the player flips town, one can say "I only said it may be a scumtell" so it provides an easy out, but also allows a player to go back in the event that player does flip scum and say "see I called it back then".
Are you being deliberately obtuse? Hans playstyle change is suspicious and merits watching. It does not mean that he is scum. If you want to call that doubtcasting, fine. But fencesitting, it is not.
I'm not asking you to. It just looks like you were trying to plant something for later and then promptly forgot about it. I would be voting you for it, but I still dislike Rhand.
It's a playstyle choice, really, but I can understand how you would get that impression.
It's a playstyle choice to forget about your previous statements or to plant things for later? Can you clarify what you mean here?
It's a playstyle choice for me to draw connections between players (mostly in my notes) and then not bother with them until a flip makes them relevant. Stating them in the thread is a bad habit I picked up after getting shot early on a lot on my home site.
Actual content tomorrow. My gut reaction is that I like the case against gan_dan, but there's no way I'm switching off Rhand right now.
This is scum!EtR. If true, he delivered us Hans on a golden platter. Look how he leans scum on Hans but puts him more towards town than his real null read Cythare.
Hans is EtR's buddy if EtR flips scum.
My claim:
S&M Construction
Because Pleasantville doesn't need many new buildings, I am specialised in repairing the existing ones.
I have 3 different doc shots (all one-shot):
* From the Rubble up: Protect someone from being demolished. If he would've been demolished that night, he's upgraded instead. (flavor: the building gets demolished but I rebuild it even better than it was)
* Termite Damage: Protect someone from being demolished. That player can also not use actions or be targeted by actions. (flavor: the building needs to be tented off to get rid of the termites)
* Now Under New Ownership!: Protect someone from being demolished. If he would've been demolished that night, I die instead. (flavor: I give my own storefront to the demolished business)
You have no behavioral read on ganderin_dan? Were you convinced by my case?
I worded that awkwardly. I'll rephrase:
My scum read on the Rodemy/Rhand slot is based completely on Rodemy's behavior. The case on gan_dan is primarily based on his lack of activity. I think behavior wins out here (however, see below).
@Arian + Proph: Does Dan's AWOL replacement affect your meta read at all on the slot? Arian mentioned in his case that while Dan was lurking ITT in Survival Horror, he was very active in the scum daychat.
This is really weird. You like dkings's last post, but his last post was mostly poking a flaw in my case. What exactly did you like?
Quote from hansanator »
My belief that Proph is town was strengthened by his recent case on Dan.
No opinion on your buddy, or anything? Just continuing to state me as town?
:/
And you liked Dkings's last post, which was pointing a flaw in my case. And you like the case (by extension of stating me as a higher town read?)
Please explain.
/barn this pretty hard. I'm starting to question my town read on Hans... that is akin to saying "I have a town read on [insert player here]" without any reasoning behind it. The quoted post had no substance and pretty much boils down to: "Hi, I'm in this game". Also, the question he asked Rhand and "/ignorant American" thing seem... weird.
Because Pleasantville doesn't need many new buildings, I am specialised in repairing the existing ones.
I have 3 different doc shots (all one-shot):
* From the Rubble up: Protect someone from being demolished. If he would've been demolished that night, he's upgraded instead. (flavor: the building gets demolished but I rebuild it even better than it was)
* Termite Damage: Protect someone from being demolished. That player can also not use actions or be targeted by actions. (flavor: the building needs to be tented off to get rid of the termites)
* Now Under New Ownership!: Protect someone from being demolished. If he would've been demolished that night, I die instead. (flavor: I give my own storefront to the demolished business)
Unless there is a counterclaim coming, Rodemy REALLY needs to stop playing up the spaz persona.
@Arian + Proph: Does Dan's AWOL replacement affect your meta read at all on the slot? Arian mentioned in his case that while Dan was lurking ITT in Survival Horror, he was very active in the scum daychat.
Not really. Dan is a cunning enough individual that if he felt that this was a serious (and valid) accusation, he could very well just afk out of the game so as not to lend credence to the argument.
I mean, obviously the same argument does not apply to EtR, but it's something that's worth remembering about that slot's predecessor.
So far, EtR's "catchup post" has not impressed me. I don't have enough time to delve into it in detail at the moment, but I specifically dislike the amount of smearing that's present in it.
Unsure what to think of Rhand's claim. The claim itself is obvtown, but the way that that slot has played this game has led me to have such a massively scummy read on it that I'm not even sure that the claim can salvage my opinion of it. It's well within the realm of possibility that Rhand is certain enough that he's going to die that he would just claim doc in order to draw out the real doc.
It may be that the best course of action would be to lynch the Dan/EtR slot toDay, then give night actions a chance to filter through and deal with the Rod/Rhand slot Tomorrow.
[
But it *isn't* an indication of scum by itself. It could also be an indication that he is improving as a player, and the way you nonchalantly agreed with it looked (and still looks) bad.
That would be why I said it may be indicative of scum.
Ugh, this is like the fencesittiest thing I've read in a long time.
Now, you're just bull****ting me. Really, I'm fencesitting because I agreed with iRebel's assessment of hans playstyle change?
I'll admit that was a hyperbole, but saying something akin to "this could be indicative of scum (but it also could not be!)" is about as useful as saying "this is a null tell" while also being more frustrating because it could be misconstrued or referred to differently later. Statements like that are a peeve of mine because when confronted about it or the player flips town, one can say "I only said it may be a scumtell" so it provides an easy out, but also allows a player to go back in the event that player does flip scum and say "see I called it back then".
Are you being deliberately obtuse? Hans playstyle change is suspicious and merits watching. It does not mean that he is scum. If you want to call that doubtcasting, fine. But fencesitting, it is not.
I'm not being deliberately obtuse. I feel like I'm basically going to keep repeating myself here, but I really do feel like the phrase this quote war started on (and this is as much a criticism of the person you barned (iRebel?) as you) is a garbage statement because of fencesitting/doubtcasting/whatever you want to call it, and is one that deserves pressure. A newer player improving is not "suspicious", it's "learning". If there's anything specific that is scummy, then I'm all for analyzing it.
I'm not asking you to. It just looks like you were trying to plant something for later and then promptly forgot about it. I would be voting you for it, but I still dislike Rhand.
It's a playstyle choice, really, but I can understand how you would get that impression.
It's a playstyle choice to forget about your previous statements or to plant things for later? Can you clarify what you mean here?
It's a playstyle choice for me to draw connections between players (mostly in my notes) and then not bother with them until a flip makes them relevant. Stating them in the thread is a bad habit I picked up after getting shot early on a lot on my home site.
I guess that makes sense in theory, but in practice I find this is the sort of thing people forget they said earlier and is useful for finding scum, who are much more likely to have abrupt read changes if they're not paying attention, which is why I've been pushing you on it.
My scum read on the Rodemy/Rhand slot is based completely on Rodemy's behavior. The case on gan_dan is primarily based on his lack of activity. I think behavior wins out here (however, see below).
@Arian + Proph: Does Dan's AWOL replacement affect your meta read at all on the slot? Arian mentioned in his case that while Dan was lurking ITT in Survival Horror, he was very active in the scum daychat.
Not really - I noted that his lurking is a big part of his scum meta, but I pointed out tone shifts in his posts as well.
I mean.
Quote from gan_dan, SH Scumchat »
I'm gonna see what develops here before posting one way or the other.
Well, you got two "not really" answers from both of us, heh.
Quote from dkingsland967 »
Unless there is a counterclaim coming, Rodemy REALLY needs to stop playing up the spaz persona.
Why do you say this, and not unvote? You want to keep your vote on if someone CC's Rhand?
Unless there is a counterclaim coming, Rodemy REALLY needs to stop playing up the spaz persona.
Why do you say this, and not unvote? You want to keep your vote on if someone CC's Rhand?
I always wait to unvote a claimed scumspect before everyone has checked in... for that matter, I think it's kinda scummy to jump off the wagon immediately (caught Arian in WWE based partially on this).
I've been over why Rodemy was my #1 scumspect since the beginning of the game. There is also a *minor* flavorgaming reason to think Rhand's role claim could be false, although I'm not willing to lynch a claimed doc without a CC.
To add to the Thirst for Information stuff... just from my few games played so far, I'm pretty sure questioning unfamiliar players about their experience level is a scum tell.
Why didn't you mention this when gan_dan asked about your town/scum games?
You're voting Rhand and Rhand claims. No comment on the claim?
You've been fighting fulcrum thus far. No comments on what is going on right now?
What did you want me to say about the claim? "I believe it"/"I don't believe it"? I have no interest in lynching a claimed doc, but I don't see the issue with not unvoting. I wanted to wait to see if anything came out in the wash.
In terms of gan_dan/EtR: I have no context for ganderin_dan's behavior, but wasn't a fan of EtR's post, specifically some of his reasoning on Rezombied.
To add to the Thirst for Information stuff... just from my few games played so far, I'm pretty sure questioning unfamiliar players about their experience level is a scum tell.
Why didn't you mention this when gan_dan asked about your town/scum games?
Let's add some context to this... the Thirst for Information topic came up when you were looking over WWE and mentioned that you would have been all over Kosa for asking if I was a gimmick account. I think there is a difference between the two examples.
Asking for someone's experience level can be beneficial in setting up a mislynch or knowing when to exploit/ignore newb-tells. On the other hand, asking for town/scum games is usually for meta reference. I am relatively certain I've seen people ask for scum/town games from other players in every game I've played in.
Also, my beliefs about that were pretty much shot down in Apocalypse when I gave both Hawk and Cyouni scum points for questioning experience level and both flipped town.
for the stall/pace of the game, there isn't much we can do to fight off the holidays plus 3 D1 replace-outs.
I don't like where your head is in the second half of that quote, though. You're assuming Rhand's claim will automatically stop his lynch from going forward which is exactly what he wants us to think, and I think you may be falling victim to his buddying attempts. He has subtly buddied you since he replaced in (basically /barned all of your points/stances and followed you onto gan_dan).
As for the gan_dan case, I've never played with him but the meta argument you and Arian presented looks to have some concrete evidence. I don't agree with your assessment of the RVS-abstaining explanation, though. It seems nit-picky, especially when taking into account the substantial number of players who believe that avoiding RVS is a scumtell. I'd prefer to lynch the Rodemy/Rhand (behavioral read) slot toDay and deal with this (lack of behavior read) toMorrow.
You have no behavioral read on ganderin_dan? Were you convinced by my case?
You're probably right on Rhand's buddying to me, but I still don't think he is all that likely to be scum. None of his replacing-in posts gave me bad vibes, and I liked the way he stalled out the claim by stating he's a strong power role. In addition, I don't like how fast his wagon came out.
This is really weird. You like dkings's last post, but his last post was mostly poking a flaw in my case. What exactly did you like?
I like the fact that he pointed out the buddying note. I like how he generally agrees with the you case on Dan, yet he doesn't blindly follow each point. I like Dking's post.
He seems to be quite the critical thinker, and that is something that I admire.
My belief that Proph is town was strengthened by his recent case on Dan.
No opinion on your buddy, or anything? Just continuing to state me as town?
What do you mean by my buddy?
Yush. I do have reason to believe that you are town based on many of the questions that you asked earlier, as well as your most recent case on Dan. I was stating that I have a town read on you; I was not trying to convince others that you are town.
And you liked Dkings's last post, which was pointing a flaw in my case. And you like the case (by extension of stating me as a higher town read?)
Please explain.
Saying that I am more confident in my belief that you are town because of your case on Dan does not necessary mean that I like your case on Dan; however, I do also like the case and think that it has merit.
Yes, I liked Dking's post, which does point out a flaw in your case. By no means does that imply that I cannot like your case and the fact that you made the case. Dkings just presents a different perspective to consider when looking at the case from a step back. Even though there is disagreement between two players, I can still believe that both of those players are town, especially when both of those players have made solid posts, like in this situation.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"I'm a compulsive liar no matter what team I play on, but I'm trying to get better about it."
You're voting Rhand and Rhand claims. No comment on the claim?
You've been fighting fulcrum thus far. No comments on what is going on right now?
What did you want me to say about the claim? "I believe it"/"I don't believe it"? I have no interest in lynching a claimed doc, but I don't see the issue with not unvoting. I wanted to wait to see if anything came out in the wash.
In terms of gan_dan/EtR: I have no context for ganderin_dan's behavior, but wasn't a fan of EtR's post, specifically some of his reasoning on Rezombied.
What do you think of my case on gan_dan?
What do you think of my PBPAish thing on you?
Besides fulcrum and Rhand, what are your reads?
I haven't gotten much from you thus far, and I'm not content with letting you skate by by quotewarring fulcrum all day.
Also, my beliefs about that were pretty much shot down in Apocalypse when I gave both Hawk and Cyouni scum points for questioning experience level and both flipped town.
Okay, I can buy this. Thanks.
Quote from hansanator »
I like the fact that he pointed out the buddying note. I like how he generally agrees with the you case on Dan, yet he doesn't blindly follow each point. I like Dking's post.
He seems to be quite the critical thinker, and that is something that I admire.
Critical thinking doesn't correspond to alignment. Do you have any real opinions on Dkings besides "I like his post?"
Quote from hansanator »
What do you mean by my buddy?
Yush. I do have reason to believe that you are town based on many of the questions that you asked earlier, as well as your most recent case on Dan. I was stating that I have a town read on you; I was not trying to convince others that you are town.
I was implying that dan was your scumbuddy.
I think this response is adequate.
Quote from hansanator »
Saying that I am more confident in my belief that you are town because of your case on Dan does not necessary mean that I like your case on Dan; however, I do also like the case and think that it has merit.
Yes, I liked Dking's post, which does point out a flaw in your case. By no means does that imply that I cannot like your case and the fact that you made the case. Dkings just presents a different perspective to consider when looking at the case from a step back. Even though there is disagreement between two players, I can still believe that both of those players are town, especially when both of those players have made solid posts, like in this situation.
That's fine, but who do you actually think is scum? I feel like you're just sitting back, observing the situation, and designating scum/town points; aka, not going out and doing the dirty work yourself. It's a similar mindset I tried to adopt in Ghost Story, where I was scum, I think. Let me pull it up.
Oh my god I was awful in that QT.
Quote from Prophylaxis »
I've adopted a "kick back and analyze" attitude, just posting analysis of scummy things. How do you feel about that?
fulcrum: Post #46 provides excuses for not wanting to vote Kosa or Rodemy. If either flip scum at any point, fulcrum is a good place to look.
This is too obvious to be scum. In addition to the other reasons that fulcrum provides later, she is tying herself to too many players to be scum.
OK, can't have it both ways here. You say fulcrum is possible scum but at the same time is not scum because she is being too obvious?
Shockwave: I agree with most people in their dislike of this post from iRebel. But his rebuttal here sounds very much like it's coming from town.
Conceding a point is usually a town trait. In my experience, scum tend to just ignore them.
Seems like shockwave should be higher up on your list than fulcrum is. How come he is so low?
dkings: Attempting to analyze the quick RVS wagon is protown.
Is asking questions and actually following up on them as seen here.
Again why is dkings lower on the list than fulcrum if you seem to be perceivng him as town?
Kosa: Kosa's post here shows a town mindset in looking into why Dkings didn't vote someone when he agreed with a case.
Kosa being levelheaded? Weird, but this post is very reasonable.
See previous 2 questions
Arianrhod: I like most of Arian's lines of thought here, but I'm concerned with his last paragraph. It's extremely fence-sitty and provides an out to either vote or stay off of Kosa's wagons later.
This post gives a good explanation of his reasoning for disliking iRebel's post.
This post is really agressive. And it doesn't seem like Arian's town game.
A general lack of content leads me to lean scum here. More Null than anything though.
Cythare: ... I have nothing that makes me think one alignment or the other and that leads me to leaning scum.
Shouldn't this mean he is null as opposed to leaning scum? I mean you did just DEFINE null read in your explanation of your lean scum read.
Rezombied: Retroactively barning a wagon to make the jump on seem townie plus most of his reads being gut reads is screaming scum.
This post actually leads me to believe that the scum don't have the wincon (although it is possible.) I don't recall a game lately where someone specifically asked for it in that manner, and this post actually furthers that belief. Refuses to give reasons for his "gut" reads.
This placement seems real out of place here. Your first point against him is about a T/S list only 130 posts into the game. We were barely out of RVS at that stage of the game. You then call him scum for the one question that either scum or town would have asked if they read the first post. I concede the third point is kinda odd, as he should have known what I was getting at, but at the same time, it seems almost too obvious. As for the final, well dunno how to take it to be honest.
@rezombied: Why did you refuse to quote the posts that were responsible for your gut reads?
Rhand:
Claimed that his vote was not an RVS vote, which implies that he believes Hans to be scum but then unvotes him due to it being L-3. This implies an inconsistent mindset.
Rodemy self voting is reminiscent of his scum performance in Apocalypse.
Rhand comes in and goes after (no offense) the easiest other lynch in the game by going after dkings. He uses his wagon analysis as the reasoning for voting him which doesn't make sense to me.
Rhand has also put off claiming a ton.
Word twisting here. dkings said that he was waiting for a response BEFORE he considers unvoting and Rhand uses that to say that he was ALREADY considering it.
My vote is going on Rhand but I want him to claim.
This post was made right before Rhand's claim. How does his claim change your views on him? It just seems like though you are trying to pile on to the easy wagon.
All and all, his T/S list sucks. He has a lot of people lower on the list than you would expect them to, and then calls a pure null read leading scum.
@rezombied: Why did you refuse to quote the posts that were responsible for your gut reads?[/B]
Because if I had specific reasons for them then they wouldn't be gut reads.
OK, in part this is fair, but there has to be SOMETHING that set off your scumdar. If not a particular post, then what exactly set your gut off to him being scum? One does not just become a scum read out of the blue. Tone, what was said, how something was said, all of this can lead to someone gutting a person one way or the other. Without any indication as to what did it though, it gets kinda hard to understand where you are coming from.
OK, it has been a good while and I have not seen any CC so:
Unvote
If he is scum gambiting here, it will all be worked out in the end. As of now though, there is no reason to lynch a claimed doc role.
Responding to the EtR T/S list, responses in bold.
All and all, his T/S list sucks. He has a lot of people lower on the list than you would expect them to, and then calls a pure null read leading scum.
Vote EtR
This vote feels strange to me, but I can't quite articulate it. I want to ask a few more questions, though.
@Tanarin
1. I get the feeling that you think I'm scum. Given with how hard I've attacked the gan_dan slot, do you think I'm bussing gan_dan/EtR?
2. Did you follow up on this? Before EtR's post, what was your read on gan_dan?
Quote from Tanarin »
As far as the rest of your reads, why leaning scum on GD exactly? I know you mention tone change, but how? Are you saying he is too mellow and he used Dr P to experiment? You trying to say his tone is closer to that of Survival Horror? Please clarify this for me.
Quote from Prophylaxis »
I'm leaning scum on gan_dan because I remember him being more of a mediator, somewhat, in Dr. P. This is mostly based on memory (I didn't go back and check Dr. P) but he seems unusually more aggressive in this game ("Don't misrep me!") than in Dr. P, I feel.
Also, I was the first one to go through this song-and-dance with rezombied and got nothing. Why are you repeating this?
1. I get the feeling that you think I'm scum. Given with how hard I've attacked the gan_dan slot, do you think I'm bussing gan_dan/EtR?
Honestly, I dunno if you are scum. I also don't know if you are town. You have been the biggest one attacking me, so my judgement on you is a bit skewed. To be fair, I did find your initial T/S list a bit off as you had both sides of the competing wagons as town. That though could easily be waived off as you being a fresh set of eyes that was not involved in said conflict. You haven't really done anything though since that leads me to believe you are scum though.
2. Did you follow up on this? Before EtR's post, what was your read on gan_dan?
Quote from Tanarin »
As far as the rest of your reads, why leaning scum on GD exactly? I know you mention tone change, but how? Are you saying he is too mellow and he used Dr P to experiment? You trying to say his tone is closer to that of Survival Horror? Please clarify this for me.
Quote from Prophylaxis »
I'm leaning scum on gan_dan because I remember him being more of a mediator, somewhat, in Dr. P. This is mostly based on memory (I didn't go back and check Dr. P) but he seems unusually more aggressive in this game ("Don't misrep me!") than in Dr. P, I feel.
Nope I did not. Mostly because I got distracted with the whole rodemy/EtR thing that literally happened in that same post. I would follow up now, but you pretty much have done so since I asked you the quoted question.
Also, I was the first one to go through this song-and-dance with rezombied and got nothing. Why are you repeating this?
He still needs the pressure. Unlike pretty much everyone else who has definitive reads and views at this point, he has skated by on minimal content for the most part, and most of his reads have been based on gut. At this point one would think that a person would have at least one solid read on someone.
You haven't really done anything though since that
WHAT
C'mon, man. I have the most posts in-thread and barely any of them have been fluff. I'd argue that I'm the one that is pushing the game the furthest now, and you're dismissing my content as "I haven't done anything since that"?
Comment on my gan_dan case, especially since you soft-defended him when I presented my initial town/scum list? Comment on my needling of hansanator and Cythare?
Also, you haven't answered the question. If you think I'm scum, do you think that I'm bussing EtR right out of the gate, if you think he's scum?
I agree with your rezombied pressure but I don't think you'll find him.. cooperative. :/
You haven't really done anything though since that
WHAT
C'mon, man. I have the most posts in-thread and barely any of them have been fluff. I'd argue that I'm the one that is pushing the game the furthest now, and you're dismissing my content as "I haven't done anything since that"?
Comment on my gan_dan case, especially since you soft-defended him when I presented my initial town/scum list? Comment on my needling of hansanator and Cythare?
Also, you haven't answered the question. If you think I'm scum, do you think that I'm bussing EtR right out of the gate, if you think he's scum?
I agree with your rezombied pressure but I don't think you'll find him.. cooperative. :/
If you are gonna quote me, at least quote me correctly:
As far as the rest of your reads, why leaning scum on GD exactly? I know you mention tone change, but how? Are you saying he is too mellow and he used Dr P to experiment? You trying to say his tone is closer to that of Survival Horror? Please clarify this for me.
After that I have not discussed your case on him at all. If you want an opinion here it is. I think you had some basis in your case as far as the AWOL lurking goes, but I have never experienced him as scum, so I am kinda taking your word on that part. As for the whole aggressive thing, I THINK I get where you are coming from, but I have been burned by people deciding to play differently between two games, especially if one feels he is being attacked.
Saying that, I do feel more confident about the slot now as EtR T/S list is just clearly off compared to what he is saying.
As for your question about you bussing EtR/G_D, how can I honestly answer it if I don't believe you to be scum? Seems like you are trying to fish for an answer I just can't give you because I don't believe one of your premises (You being scum) to be true.
I've been in two games with gan_dan (Dr. P and Survival Horror before we joint-replaced out). EtR is absolutely scum. In mafiascum, I played a Newbie game where my most solid scumread got replaced by a competent player and he proceed to +town it up, so we didn't lynch him until Day 2 (and even then the cop had to claim). I'm not letting this situation repeat itself.
Your case on Gan Dan was that he wasn't posting a lot. With finals/his claimed vacation/holidays/etc that doesn't really mean too much. Now your tunneling on this spot because you think your case has merit.
This is scum!EtR. If true, he delivered us Hans on a golden platter. Look how he leans scum on Hans but puts him more towards town than his real null read Cythare.
Hans is EtR's buddy if EtR flips scum.
My claim:
S&M Construction
Because Pleasantville doesn't need many new buildings, I am specialised in repairing the existing ones.
I have 3 different doc shots (all one-shot):
* From the Rubble up: Protect someone from being demolished. If he would've been demolished that night, he's upgraded instead. (flavor: the building gets demolished but I rebuild it even better than it was)
* Termite Damage: Protect someone from being demolished. That player can also not use actions or be targeted by actions. (flavor: the building needs to be tented off to get rid of the termites)
* Now Under New Ownership!: Protect someone from being demolished. If he would've been demolished that night, I die instead. (flavor: I give my own storefront to the demolished business)
How exactly is this scum EtR? You can't just say that and not back it up.
As far as the claim goes, I anticipated a shot type doctor like this. I believe Rhand's claim. @Tan -
[B]OK, can't have it both ways here. You say fulcrum is possible scum but at the same time is not scum because she is being too obvious?
[/B]I was quoting posts as I went through the game. The first one was first then the next one. By the end of it I didn't think she was scum.
[B]Seems like shockwave should be higher up on your list than fulcrum is. How come he is so low?
[/B]fulcrum has been more involved.
[B]Again why is dkings lower on the list than fulcrum if you seem to be perceivng him as town?
[/B]I'm unsure about dkings. I have him leaning town, but he seems to be playing different than TMNT or Apocalypse.
[B]See previous 2 questions ([/B]Re: Kosa[B])
[/B]Kosa probably could go higher up. Middle of the pack is more interchangeable than the top or bottom.
[B]Shouldn't this mean he is null as opposed to leaning scum? I mean you did just DEFINE null read in your explanation of your lean scum read.
[/B]No. In this case I feel like I have a pretty good read on everyone else in the game. I feel like his questions/statements have been intentionally middle of the road.
[B]This placement seems real out of place here. Your first point against him is about a T/S list only 130 posts into the game. We were barely out of RVS at that stage of the game. You then call him scum for the one question that either scum or town would have asked if they read the first post. I concede the third point is kinda odd, as he should have known what I was getting at, but at the same time, it seems almost too obvious. As for the final, well dunno how to take it to be honest.
[/B]So it's acceptable for someone to have reads based on posts IN RVS, but not shortly there after?
If we want to go into additional detail, look at Futurama. In that game Rezombied wasn't hugely active, but he gave reads and reasons. In this game he is actively avoiding giving reasons for his reads, going so far as to outright decline when asked. It is completely different behavior.
[B]This post was made right before Rhand's claim. How does his claim change your views on him? It just seems like though you are trying to pile on to the easy wagon.
[/B]Well, I believe the claim because I anticipated that role. That doesn't mean he's town, but I'm certainly not going to vote an unCC'd doc. If I wanted to pile on an easy wagon I would have voted. Rodemy's behavior (specifically his self vote) felt very similar to Apocolypse.
@rezombied: Why did you refuse to quote the posts that were responsible for your gut reads?[/B]
Because if I had specific reasons for them then they wouldn't be gut reads.
OK, in part this is fair, but there has to be SOMETHING that set off your scumdar. If not a particular post, then what exactly set your gut off to him being scum? One does not just become a scum read out of the blue. Tone, what was said, how something was said, all of this can lead to someone gutting a person one way or the other. Without any indication as to what did it though, it gets kinda hard to understand where you are coming from.
Look at this free pass. Next time I get crap about a scum list I'm just gonna claim gut.
Also, Prophs reaction to his perception of Tan's statement bothers me. @Proph - why are you so concerned with how you are being viewed by Tan?
@rezombied: Why did you refuse to quote the posts that were responsible for your gut reads?[/B]
Because if I had specific reasons for them then they wouldn't be gut reads.
OK, in part this is fair, but there has to be SOMETHING that set off your scumdar. If not a particular post, then what exactly set your gut off to him being scum? One does not just become a scum read out of the blue. Tone, what was said, how something was said, all of this can lead to someone gutting a person one way or the other. Without any indication as to what did it though, it gets kinda hard to understand where you are coming from.
I explained a couple of my reads. Proph asked me about hansanator and gan_dan specifically, and I didn't have any specific reasons for their respective leanings.
I agree with your rezombied pressure but I don't think you'll find him.. cooperative. :/
When have I been uncooperative? Was it when you asked if I could quote posts that caused me to develop certain gut reads and I said I couldn't?
[b]@EtR[/b]: How many of your other reads did you consider meta for? You didn't include any in your list, but later on brought out meta to further your cases on both proph(as town) and me(as scum)[#289].
@rezombied: Why did you refuse to quote the posts that were responsible for your gut reads?[/B]
Because if I had specific reasons for them then they wouldn't be gut reads.
OK, in part this is fair, but there has to be SOMETHING that set off your scumdar. If not a particular post, then what exactly set your gut off to him being scum? One does not just become a scum read out of the blue. Tone, what was said, how something was said, all of this can lead to someone gutting a person one way or the other. Without any indication as to what did it though, it gets kinda hard to understand where you are coming from.
I explained a couple of my reads. Proph asked me about hansanator and gan_dan specifically, and I didn't have any specific reasons for their respective leanings.
I agree with your rezombied pressure but I don't think you'll find him.. cooperative. :/
When have I been uncooperative? Was it when you asked if I could quote posts that caused me to develop certain gut reads and I said I couldn't?
[b]@EtR[/b]: How many of your other reads did you consider meta for? You didn't include any in your list, but later on brought out meta to further your cases on both proph(as town) and me(as scum)[#289].
I think any of the folks I've played with before meta is factored in somewhat. Some more than others though. They weren't included in my list because I was just pointing to specific posts that helped from my reads.
@EtR: you're far too soft to be town. Town!EtR would be all over someone now.
You're also pretty self-conscious.
Your last post contains a good example: instead of going after Tanarin or Rezombied for that 'free pass', you choose to look at how you can use that to protect yourself from attacks in the future (even if that was meant sarcastic, you still talked about yourself instead of attacking others, what you would do as town).
@EtR: you're far too soft to be town. Town!EtR would be all over someone now.
You're also pretty self-conscious.
Your last post contains a good example: instead of going after Tanarin or Rezombied for that 'free pass', you choose to look at how you can use that to protect yourself from attacks in the future (even if that was meant sarcastic, you still talked about yourself instead of attacking others, what you would do as town).
Well, it would have been you that I was all over. That claim was jarring though and there's no way I'm pushing you after the claim. Tan I have is town and people are disagreeing with my read on Zombie. I need to reread again with your claim taken into account I think.
Also, Rhand - I wasn't aggressive at the beginning of apocalypse or chimes either and I'm pretty sure you said I was town in apocalypse because I wasn't being pushy...?
I am pretty sure I said you were town because you were being pushy.
I've been at the receiving end of town!EtR's hunting enough times to know what it feels like. And it doesn't feel like anything you're doing right now.
You were talking in third person about me in that T/S post. I would expect you to talk to me instead of about me if you were really hunting me.
I am pretty sure I said you were town because you were being pushy.
I've been at the receiving end of town!EtR's hunting enough times to know what it feels like. And it doesn't feel like anything you're doing right now.
You were talking in third person about me in that T/S post. I would expect you to talk to me instead of about me if you were really hunting me.
It was a catch up post. I was providing reads and the reasons why I had them. I wasn't talking to anyone there. With Dan's lack of content I figured having those out there was more critical than anything else at that point.
Ganderin_Dan has been prodded. If he does not post in 48 hours he will be forcibly replaced.
Rhand (5): dkingsland967; Tanarin; Cythare; Rezombied; fulcrum
Kosakosa (2): Ganderin_Dan; Shockwave07
Ganderin_Dan (2): Prophylaxis; Rhand
Not Voting (2): Hansanator; Arianrhod; Kosakosa
With 12 alive, it's 7 to lynch!
Something I noticed: This Day has been going on for close to a month now, and the game really needs to move so that we can maintain our pace. The lynch has been stalled like this for Days; even though I don't particularly want Rhand to claim (since I think he's probably town), he should claim so that we can move the game forward with a gan_dan lynch. I don't want for us to lose our pace.
hans is.. ugh. I'm looking at his recent posts and really want to say that he's changing up his playstyle and actually Doing Things but when I'm actually reading his recent posts it's exactly the opposite.
He fencesits on Rhand in #239, and his recent posts are kind of a "lack of town points" thing. However, he has a crazy gambit to pull but is holding off on that fact, and I know that hans can be extremely scummy but usually pulls crazy stunts like that as town. I'd declare this still as a leaning scum read but I wanted to list my thoughts on hans.
@Cythare
I'm currently null on fulcrum, and it's strange because I can usually read her well in her home site but somehow can't read her here. I'll see if I can get a PBPAish thing soon, similar to what I did with you.
Thanks for the buddying answer.
@fulcrum
Because rezombied is inexperienced and I don't think he's at the level in which he would start to imitate town tells as scum. In addition, I don't think he's encountered that type of lack of self-awareness before.
--
I want everyone's thoughts on ganderin_dan and I want to know why we're not lynching him today. I should have a case incoming.
The first post is rvs-abstain, which is null for him.
His #38 felt off to me because he went through the trouble of searching through all of his games to reply to Cantrip. If I was in gan_dan's shoes and Cantrip asked me that question I'd probably list out some game titles, not go through that much trouble of searching through and finding all of my games. gan_dan's answer feels rather overexplanatory to me.
He then uses "really noob logic+selfawareness" to townread Rodemy, which I find strange. I'm surprised that gan_dan is townreading Rodemy this early in the game, where most people would be rather wary of him after Apocalypse. It feels like an early clear to me.
His vote on Kosakosa also feels overexplanatory. I can't really explain how for those who don't see it, but I remember pre-replacement I was looking at that post and watching to spit out something.
His response to Cythare: is unusually aggressive from what I know of dan.
His next post is also fairly confrontational:
ganderin_dan's next post also feels weird. First off, it's mostly a "question everyone" post. The "town/scum" of dkings reads out of left field, given that gan_dan never mentioned dkings before that, and the tone feels rather... conciliatory? It feels kind of reaching out for people to help, much different from his aggressive/confrontational stance earlier.
gan_dan's next post (#77) returns the snarky, aggressive feel I've been getting from gan_dan's posts ("Don't twist my words!").
His next and final post (#100) is a treasure trove.
He asks dkings for his town/scum games, but he never really goes into the reason why he wanted those, given that it came from left field. He says to Kosa, "Guess we're at an impasse" with no attempt to advance his wagon - he's content to let it stall.
The thing I like here and gives him minor town points is the followup on Cantrip's question - but I've done it as scum before, and gan_dan is the type of player who would observe the current trend of following up questions in MTGS meta - admittedly started by pinkys_brain on me in Presidential (where I was scum and playing terribly), and I've been looking for instances of it ever since.
I have no idea why he calls Shockwave noob scum but he doesn't vote him - he keeps his vote on the "We're at an impasse" Kosa.
And Arian mentions that he's playing similarly to his scum meta in Survival Horror as well, which I wholeheartedly agree with. I think he's a player similar to me; we both play very well as town and are amazingly bad at being scum.
Pleasantville Mafia -> lowest poster
Dr. Polyopticon (town) -> 5th highest poster
Survival Horror (scum) -> one of the lowest posters before replacing out
Cyberspace Mafia (town) -> 6th highest poster (he replaced in, even!)
Let's lynch him.
I pointed out the self-vote and TMNT wagon -> different response before as well. Good catch on the vote vs. lack of vote coming out of RVS.
I was pretty surprised to come back from a week of V/LA and only be like 20 posts behind. As for the stall/pace of the game, there isn't much we can do to fight off the holidays plus 3 D1 replace-outs.
I don't like where your head is in the second half of that quote, though. You're assuming Rhand's claim will automatically stop his lynch from going forward which is exactly what he wants us to think, and I think you may be falling victim to his buddying attempts. He has subtly buddied you since he replaced in (basically /barned all of your points/stances and followed you onto gan_dan).
As for the gan_dan case, I've never played with him but the meta argument you and Arian presented looks to have some concrete evidence. I don't agree with your assessment of the RVS-abstaining explanation, though. It seems nit-picky, especially when taking into account the substantial number of players who believe that avoiding RVS is a scumtell. I'd prefer to lynch the Rodemy/Rhand (behavioral read) slot toDay and deal with this (lack of behavior read) toMorrow.
Thanks to Heroes of the Plane Studios for the sigpic.
Spider-Man Mafia 3 (Off-Site: NGA)
Metroid Mafia (Off-Site: Mafia Universe)
My belief that Proph is town was strengthened by his recent case on Dan.
I agree that the game is pretty much stalled until Rhand gets back.
This might be a really stupid question, but this is a European practice where the day is placed before the month, is it not?
/ignorant American
Previous Mafia Experience:
Mafia aligned: 2/0 -100%
Town aligned: 4/3 - 57%
Ditto, and now that GD has replaced out, that kills any meta argument Proph had on GD.
Also yes, Europeans do day before month.
Come join us in the MTGSalvation chat ||| My trade thread. ||| My Personal Modern Blog: The Fetchlands
Have a T/S list:
Town:
EtR
Tanarin
Proph
fulcrum
Shockwave
dkings
Kosa
Arianrhod
Hans
Cythare
Rezombied
Rhand
Tanarin:
I like this post. Attempting to get Rodemy to focus and explain his reasons for going after Hans. Town want people on track. I would expect scum to continue to let him go on and on about RVS votes.
I don't agree with everything in this post, but it shows that Tan is thinking things through objectively. He gives clear reasoning and is having a conversation instead of just immediately attacking.
Town post.
I disagree with Tan and Kosa's opinion that fulcrum was town reading Kosa. She pretty much said the opposite earlier in the game.
Proph:
I liked this post from Cantrip.
This appears to be a town Proph post.
fulcrum:
Post #46 provides excuses for not wanting to vote Kosa or Rodemy. If either flip scum at any point, fulcrum is a good place to look.
This is too obvious to be scum. In addition to the other reasons that fulcrum provides later, she is tying herself to too many players to be scum.
Shockwave:
I agree with most people in their dislike of this post from iRebel. But his rebuttal here sounds very much like it's coming from town.
Conceding a point is usually a town trait. In my experience, scum tend to just ignore them.
dkings:
Attempting to analyze the quick RVS wagon is protown.
Is asking questions and actually following up on them as seen here.
Kosa:
Kosa's post here shows a town mindset in looking into why Dkings didn't vote someone when he agreed with a case.
Kosa being levelheaded? Weird, but this post is very reasonable.
Arianrhod:
I like most of Arian's lines of thought here, but I'm concerned with his last paragraph. It's extremely fence-sitty and provides an out to either vote or stay off of Kosa's wagons later.
This post gives a good explanation of his reasoning for disliking iRebel's post.
This post is really agressive. And it doesn't seem like Arian's town game.
Hans:
I like this post from Hans
A general lack of content leads me to lean scum here. More Null than anything though.
Cythare:
... I have nothing that makes me think one alignment or the other and that leads me to leaning scum.
Rezombied:
Retroactively barning a wagon to make the jump on seem townie plus most of his reads being gut reads is screaming scum.
This post actually leads me to believe that the scum don't have the wincon (although it is possible.) I don't recall a game lately where someone specifically asked for it in that manner, and this post actually furthers that belief.
Refuses to give reasons for his "gut" reads.
Rhand:
Claimed that his vote was not an RVS vote, which implies that he believes Hans to be scum but then unvotes him due to it being L-3. This implies an inconsistent mindset.
Rodemy self voting is reminiscent of his scum performance in Apocalypse.
OMGUS
Rhand comes in and goes after (no offense) the easiest other lynch in the game by going after dkings. He uses his wagon analysis as the reasoning for voting him which doesn't make sense to me.
Rhand has also put off claiming a ton.
Word twisting here. dkings said that he was waiting for a response BEFORE he considers unvoting and Rhand uses that to say that he was ALREADY considering it.
Scum take notes too.
My vote is going on Rhand but I want him to claim.
I get a scummy vibe from EtR in this post, bussing Rhand, and maybe even fulcrum.
'fulcrum is being too scummy to be scum'
'If Rhand is scum look at fulcrum.'
Thinks Rhand is scum.
@Proph: How many games have you done with gan_dan?
You have no behavioral read on ganderin_dan? Were you convinced by my case?
You're probably right on Rhand's buddying to me, but I still don't think he is all that likely to be scum. None of his replacing-in posts gave me bad vibes, and I liked the way he stalled out the claim by stating he's a strong power role. In addition, I don't like how fast his wagon came out.
This is really weird. You like dkings's last post, but his last post was mostly poking a flaw in my case. What exactly did you like?
No opinion on your buddy, or anything? Just continuing to state me as town?
:/
And you liked Dkings's last post, which was pointing a flaw in my case. And you like the case (by extension of stating me as a higher town read?)
Please explain.
I've been in two games with gan_dan (Dr. P and Survival Horror before we joint-replaced out). EtR is absolutely scum. In mafiascum, I played a Newbie game where my most solid scumread got replaced by a competent player and he proceed to +town it up, so we didn't lynch him until Day 2 (and even then the cop had to claim). I'm not letting this situation repeat itself.
Are you being deliberately obtuse? Hans playstyle change is suspicious and merits watching. It does not mean that he is scum. If you want to call that doubtcasting, fine. But fencesitting, it is not.
It's a playstyle choice for me to draw connections between players (mostly in my notes) and then not bother with them until a flip makes them relevant. Stating them in the thread is a bad habit I picked up after getting shot early on a lot on my home site.
Actual content tomorrow. My gut reaction is that I like the case against gan_dan, but there's no way I'm switching off Rhand right now.
Hans is EtR's buddy if EtR flips scum.
My claim:
S&M Construction
Because Pleasantville doesn't need many new buildings, I am specialised in repairing the existing ones.
I have 3 different doc shots (all one-shot):
* From the Rubble up: Protect someone from being demolished. If he would've been demolished that night, he's upgraded instead. (flavor: the building gets demolished but I rebuild it even better than it was)
* Termite Damage: Protect someone from being demolished. That player can also not use actions or be targeted by actions. (flavor: the building needs to be tented off to get rid of the termites)
* Now Under New Ownership!: Protect someone from being demolished. If he would've been demolished that night, I die instead. (flavor: I give my own storefront to the demolished business)
I worded that awkwardly. I'll rephrase:
My scum read on the Rodemy/Rhand slot is based completely on Rodemy's behavior. The case on gan_dan is primarily based on his lack of activity. I think behavior wins out here (however, see below).
@Arian + Proph: Does Dan's AWOL replacement affect your meta read at all on the slot? Arian mentioned in his case that while Dan was lurking ITT in Survival Horror, he was very active in the scum daychat.
/barn this pretty hard. I'm starting to question my town read on Hans... that is akin to saying "I have a town read on [insert player here]" without any reasoning behind it. The quoted post had no substance and pretty much boils down to: "Hi, I'm in this game". Also, the question he asked Rhand and "/ignorant American" thing seem... weird.
If EtR is scum, I don't think he would try to set up a chain-lynch on both of his teammates on D1.
Unless there is a counterclaim coming, Rodemy REALLY needs to stop playing up the spaz persona.
Not really. Dan is a cunning enough individual that if he felt that this was a serious (and valid) accusation, he could very well just afk out of the game so as not to lend credence to the argument.
I mean, obviously the same argument does not apply to EtR, but it's something that's worth remembering about that slot's predecessor.
So far, EtR's "catchup post" has not impressed me. I don't have enough time to delve into it in detail at the moment, but I specifically dislike the amount of smearing that's present in it.
Unsure what to think of Rhand's claim. The claim itself is obvtown, but the way that that slot has played this game has led me to have such a massively scummy read on it that I'm not even sure that the claim can salvage my opinion of it. It's well within the realm of possibility that Rhand is certain enough that he's going to die that he would just claim doc in order to draw out the real doc.
It may be that the best course of action would be to lynch the Dan/EtR slot toDay, then give night actions a chance to filter through and deal with the Rod/Rhand slot Tomorrow.
I'm not being deliberately obtuse. I feel like I'm basically going to keep repeating myself here, but I really do feel like the phrase this quote war started on (and this is as much a criticism of the person you barned (iRebel?) as you) is a garbage statement because of fencesitting/doubtcasting/whatever you want to call it, and is one that deserves pressure. A newer player improving is not "suspicious", it's "learning". If there's anything specific that is scummy, then I'm all for analyzing it.
I guess that makes sense in theory, but in practice I find this is the sort of thing people forget they said earlier and is useful for finding scum, who are much more likely to have abrupt read changes if they're not paying attention, which is why I've been pushing you on it.
Draft my cube! (630 cards)
Not really - I noted that his lurking is a big part of his scum meta, but I pointed out tone shifts in his posts as well.
I mean.
Well, you got two "not really" answers from both of us, heh.
Why do you say this, and not unvote? You want to keep your vote on if someone CC's Rhand?
You're voting Rhand and Rhand claims. No comment on the claim?
You've been fighting fulcrum thus far. No comments on what is going on right now?
Right... I warned that me claiming was going to out a strong PR, and now that I did, you both believe me AND keep your vote on me?
I feel like lynching you again instead of EtR.
If the scumteam is Dkings, EtR, Hans: you can resign now and save us the trouble of lynching all of you.
I always wait to unvote a claimed scumspect before everyone has checked in... for that matter, I think it's kinda scummy to jump off the wagon immediately (caught Arian in WWE based partially on this).
I've been over why Rodemy was my #1 scumspect since the beginning of the game. There is also a *minor* flavorgaming reason to think Rhand's role claim could be false, although I'm not willing to lynch a claimed doc without a CC.
@dkings
In the mentor chat we had, you said:
Why didn't you mention this when gan_dan asked about your town/scum games?
What did you want me to say about the claim? "I believe it"/"I don't believe it"? I have no interest in lynching a claimed doc, but I don't see the issue with not unvoting. I wanted to wait to see if anything came out in the wash.
In terms of gan_dan/EtR: I have no context for ganderin_dan's behavior, but wasn't a fan of EtR's post, specifically some of his reasoning on Rezombied.
Draft my cube! (630 cards)
Let's add some context to this... the Thirst for Information topic came up when you were looking over WWE and mentioned that you would have been all over Kosa for asking if I was a gimmick account. I think there is a difference between the two examples.
Asking for someone's experience level can be beneficial in setting up a mislynch or knowing when to exploit/ignore newb-tells. On the other hand, asking for town/scum games is usually for meta reference. I am relatively certain I've seen people ask for scum/town games from other players in every game I've played in.
Also, my beliefs about that were pretty much shot down in Apocalypse when I gave both Hawk and Cyouni scum points for questioning experience level and both flipped town.
I like the fact that he pointed out the buddying note. I like how he generally agrees with the you case on Dan, yet he doesn't blindly follow each point. I like Dking's post.
He seems to be quite the critical thinker, and that is something that I admire.
What do you mean by my buddy?
Yush. I do have reason to believe that you are town based on many of the questions that you asked earlier, as well as your most recent case on Dan. I was stating that I have a town read on you; I was not trying to convince others that you are town.
Saying that I am more confident in my belief that you are town because of your case on Dan does not necessary mean that I like your case on Dan; however, I do also like the case and think that it has merit.
Yes, I liked Dking's post, which does point out a flaw in your case. By no means does that imply that I cannot like your case and the fact that you made the case. Dkings just presents a different perspective to consider when looking at the case from a step back. Even though there is disagreement between two players, I can still believe that both of those players are town, especially when both of those players have made solid posts, like in this situation.
Previous Mafia Experience:
Mafia aligned: 2/0 -100%
Town aligned: 4/3 - 57%
(Hey DKL are you always that self-conscious?)
Prophylaxis thanks this post!
What do you think of my case on gan_dan?
What do you think of my PBPAish thing on you?
Besides fulcrum and Rhand, what are your reads?
I haven't gotten much from you thus far, and I'm not content with letting you skate by by quotewarring fulcrum all day.
Okay, I can buy this. Thanks.
Critical thinking doesn't correspond to alignment. Do you have any real opinions on Dkings besides "I like his post?"
I was implying that dan was your scumbuddy.
I think this response is adequate.
That's fine, but who do you actually think is scum? I feel like you're just sitting back, observing the situation, and designating scum/town points; aka, not going out and doing the dirty work yourself. It's a similar mindset I tried to adopt in Ghost Story, where I was scum, I think. Let me pull it up.
Oh my god I was awful in that QT.
This is what I think you're doing.
Unvote
If he is scum gambiting here, it will all be worked out in the end. As of now though, there is no reason to lynch a claimed doc role.
Responding to the EtR T/S list, responses in bold.
All and all, his T/S list sucks. He has a lot of people lower on the list than you would expect them to, and then calls a pure null read leading scum.
Vote EtR
Come join us in the MTGSalvation chat ||| My trade thread. ||| My Personal Modern Blog: The Fetchlands
Because if I had specific reasons for them then they wouldn't be gut reads.
-----
[b]@EtR[/b]: Thoughts on Rhand's claim? Since you wanted to vote Rhand but didn't, pending claim.
[b]@Arianrhod[/b]: Did you see anything about EtR's catchup post that you didn't like that hasn't been pointed out?
OK, in part this is fair, but there has to be SOMETHING that set off your scumdar. If not a particular post, then what exactly set your gut off to him being scum? One does not just become a scum read out of the blue. Tone, what was said, how something was said, all of this can lead to someone gutting a person one way or the other. Without any indication as to what did it though, it gets kinda hard to understand where you are coming from.
Come join us in the MTGSalvation chat ||| My trade thread. ||| My Personal Modern Blog: The Fetchlands
This vote feels strange to me, but I can't quite articulate it. I want to ask a few more questions, though.
@Tanarin
1. I get the feeling that you think I'm scum. Given with how hard I've attacked the gan_dan slot, do you think I'm bussing gan_dan/EtR?
2. Did you follow up on this? Before EtR's post, what was your read on gan_dan?
Also, I was the first one to go through this song-and-dance with rezombied and got nothing. Why are you repeating this?
Honestly, I dunno if you are scum. I also don't know if you are town. You have been the biggest one attacking me, so my judgement on you is a bit skewed. To be fair, I did find your initial T/S list a bit off as you had both sides of the competing wagons as town. That though could easily be waived off as you being a fresh set of eyes that was not involved in said conflict. You haven't really done anything though since that leads me to believe you are scum though.
Nope I did not. Mostly because I got distracted with the whole rodemy/EtR thing that literally happened in that same post. I would follow up now, but you pretty much have done so since I asked you the quoted question.
He still needs the pressure. Unlike pretty much everyone else who has definitive reads and views at this point, he has skated by on minimal content for the most part, and most of his reads have been based on gut. At this point one would think that a person would have at least one solid read on someone.
@Hans: Mind answering my post 248 now please?
Come join us in the MTGSalvation chat ||| My trade thread. ||| My Personal Modern Blog: The Fetchlands
WHAT
C'mon, man. I have the most posts in-thread and barely any of them have been fluff. I'd argue that I'm the one that is pushing the game the furthest now, and you're dismissing my content as "I haven't done anything since that"?
Comment on my gan_dan case, especially since you soft-defended him when I presented my initial town/scum list? Comment on my needling of hansanator and Cythare?
Also, you haven't answered the question. If you think I'm scum, do you think that I'm bussing EtR right out of the gate, if you think he's scum?
I agree with your rezombied pressure but I don't think you'll find him.. cooperative. :/
If you are gonna quote me, at least quote me correctly:
Note you conveniently left out the bolded part of the statement.
Anyway, you say I defended G_D when you did your initial list. How is this defending him?
After that I have not discussed your case on him at all. If you want an opinion here it is. I think you had some basis in your case as far as the AWOL lurking goes, but I have never experienced him as scum, so I am kinda taking your word on that part. As for the whole aggressive thing, I THINK I get where you are coming from, but I have been burned by people deciding to play differently between two games, especially if one feels he is being attacked.
Saying that, I do feel more confident about the slot now as EtR T/S list is just clearly off compared to what he is saying.
As for your question about you bussing EtR/G_D, how can I honestly answer it if I don't believe you to be scum? Seems like you are trying to fish for an answer I just can't give you because I don't believe one of your premises (You being scum) to be true.
Come join us in the MTGSalvation chat ||| My trade thread. ||| My Personal Modern Blog: The Fetchlands
Your case on Gan Dan was that he wasn't posting a lot. With finals/his claimed vacation/holidays/etc that doesn't really mean too much. Now your tunneling on this spot because you think your case has merit.
How exactly is this scum EtR? You can't just say that and not back it up.
As far as the claim goes, I anticipated a shot type doctor like this. I believe Rhand's claim. @Tan -
[B]OK, can't have it both ways here. You say fulcrum is possible scum but at the same time is not scum because she is being too obvious?
[/B]I was quoting posts as I went through the game. The first one was first then the next one. By the end of it I didn't think she was scum.
[B]Seems like shockwave should be higher up on your list than fulcrum is. How come he is so low?
[/B]fulcrum has been more involved.
[B]Again why is dkings lower on the list than fulcrum if you seem to be perceivng him as town?
[/B]I'm unsure about dkings. I have him leaning town, but he seems to be playing different than TMNT or Apocalypse.
[B]See previous 2 questions ([/B]Re: Kosa[B])
[/B]Kosa probably could go higher up. Middle of the pack is more interchangeable than the top or bottom.
[B]Shouldn't this mean he is null as opposed to leaning scum? I mean you did just DEFINE null read in your explanation of your lean scum read.
[/B]No. In this case I feel like I have a pretty good read on everyone else in the game. I feel like his questions/statements have been intentionally middle of the road.
[B]This placement seems real out of place here. Your first point against him is about a T/S list only 130 posts into the game. We were barely out of RVS at that stage of the game. You then call him scum for the one question that either scum or town would have asked if they read the first post. I concede the third point is kinda odd, as he should have known what I was getting at, but at the same time, it seems almost too obvious. As for the final, well dunno how to take it to be honest.
[/B]So it's acceptable for someone to have reads based on posts IN RVS, but not shortly there after?
If we want to go into additional detail, look at Futurama. In that game Rezombied wasn't hugely active, but he gave reads and reasons. In this game he is actively avoiding giving reasons for his reads, going so far as to outright decline when asked. It is completely different behavior.
[B]This post was made right before Rhand's claim. How does his claim change your views on him? It just seems like though you are trying to pile on to the easy wagon.
[/B]Well, I believe the claim because I anticipated that role. That doesn't mean he's town, but I'm certainly not going to vote an unCC'd doc. If I wanted to pile on an easy wagon I would have voted. Rodemy's behavior (specifically his self vote) felt very similar to Apocolypse.
Look at this free pass. Next time I get crap about a scum list I'm just gonna claim gut.
Also, Prophs reaction to his perception of Tan's statement bothers me. @Proph - why are you so concerned with how you are being viewed by Tan?
Unvote
Vote Kosakosa
Kosa: There's an outstanding question for you in post 209.
I explained a couple of my reads. Proph asked me about hansanator and gan_dan specifically, and I didn't have any specific reasons for their respective leanings.
When have I been uncooperative? Was it when you asked if I could quote posts that caused me to develop certain gut reads and I said I couldn't?
[b]@EtR[/b]: How many of your other reads did you consider meta for? You didn't include any in your list, but later on brought out meta to further your cases on both proph(as town) and me(as scum)[#289].
Rhand (2): dkingsland967; Cythare
Kosakosa (3): EtR; Shockwave07; fulcrum
EtR (3): Prophylaxis; Rhand; Tanarin
Not Voting (4): Hansanator; Arianrhod; Kosakosa; Rezombied
With 12 alive, it's 7 to lynch!
I think any of the folks I've played with before meta is factored in somewhat. Some more than others though. They weren't included in my list because I was just pointing to specific posts that helped from my reads.
You're also pretty self-conscious.
Your last post contains a good example: instead of going after Tanarin or Rezombied for that 'free pass', you choose to look at how you can use that to protect yourself from attacks in the future (even if that was meant sarcastic, you still talked about yourself instead of attacking others, what you would do as town).
Well, it would have been you that I was all over. That claim was jarring though and there's no way I'm pushing you after the claim. Tan I have is town and people are disagreeing with my read on Zombie. I need to reread again with your claim taken into account I think.
I've been at the receiving end of town!EtR's hunting enough times to know what it feels like. And it doesn't feel like anything you're doing right now.
You were talking in third person about me in that T/S post. I would expect you to talk to me instead of about me if you were really hunting me.
It was a catch up post. I was providing reads and the reasons why I had them. I wasn't talking to anyone there. With Dan's lack of content I figured having those out there was more critical than anything else at that point.
Why?
Affirmative.
I like an EtR lynch. Based on his catchup post, if he flips scum...
1. Hans is a strong starting point for D2
2. The disconnect between the comments he made and the arrangement of his T/S list makes fulcrum look pretty suspect and says Cythare is probably town
Vote EtR