No offense intended. I was only suggesting it because it seemed to be what one of the scum from MM8 did (I think it was Ria, very little activity, constantly posting late, claiming the reason was that he was busy and then being indignant when people called him on it). Obviously, you're busy, but I had to consider it as a possibility. I looked at activity for all the late/little posters..
Yeah, but he did the same thing in MM7. (For the non-mods who can't see it, BV and parinoid were both scum, both went super-lurktastic the closer we got to endgame, and it got the entire town to implode on ourselves after they took out the stronger players. It fits scum!BV from that game.)
He didn't even vote anyone in his big post listing his suspects. (afraid to commit)
That along with the fact that anyone who reads that post and checks the posts Jay references can see the falsities are pouring out of his every orifice.
Adding to that: the manner in which he is omgusing me. OMGUS is not inherently scummy nor townie (so I've learned over many-a-game), but the manner in which one does it can definitely give things away.
Funny too: one post after he voted me, he tells Arnnaria he's not confident enough in ANY of his reads to recommend a Vig shot on anyone.
And in that same post gives himself from to backtrack on his current reads and even opens up a few more for himself.
If any one wants to see examples of scum posts, read 391 & 399.
My votes on Jay when we are in agreement to move forward on this. His initial gusto on me is what drew suspicion on him by several players. Now that he's shown extreme lack of conviction in his own read on me to place me in his top tier of town reads when (if we are being perfectly honest here) I really haven't done anything substantive to merit such a huge about face, I'm skeptical. I also think Sir Karn's catch of him voting for Karn but not wishing for Karn to be shot does lack the gravitas a town player is supposed to have. We want people to swing because we are sure of their guilt, not because we just need to survive a day phase.
I think if we are looking a Jay's town/scum list in 391, I'm going to have to quote Asenion from Polyopticon when he caught me as scum in the midst of a list: "men have opinions, scum summarize.". Let's look at each of these reads...
Jay, a good response to my post, and I can see the missing piece to the puzzle on the turnaround.
However, it still comes after the backlash, and so I stand by my concerns that you did a 180 because you got wagoned over the annaria push.
Well, when someone posts almost two pages of comments calling you out for being wrong, in general it's my philosophy to actually see if I'm wrong
Not seeing it. I have little tolerance for arrogance, and I cannot see that kind of attitude as townie. I guess that's the difference between the "experienced" "good" players and me, and why I will never play in a non modfia game. When people start getting arrogant, I immediately go on tilt (see me vs. Void in MM8). If a player wants to respond to false accusations, they should make arguments and present their case. Being a dismissive douche is not productive or helpful for either side.
Day One Sir Karn explained everything he did, even if it was terse. Day Two Sir Karn didn't explain anything or provide analysis until after both Kaburi and I have called him out on it (except to ask questions early in the Day that he should already know the answers to). When the roles change every day and your tone suddenly changes from explanatory to dismissive, that seems like a major red flag to me. Continuing to be dismissive when you're supposedly town helps no one make good reads.
Adding to that: the manner in which he is omgusing me. OMGUS is not inherently scummy nor townie (so I've learned over many-a-game), but the manner in which one does it can definitely give things away.
Have you considered that maybe it's your attitude in approaching me, and not you just voting for me, that caused me to vote for you? It was your dismissiveness, not your vote, that caused me to vote for you. Plenty of people have voted for me so far, but I'm pretty sure they're all town.
If you had explained yourself in the first place, I wouldn't have voted for you. Trying to explain it away by claiming it's an OMGUS when I specifically said 'Nice Evasion' is weak.
Funny too: one post after he voted me, he tells Arnnaria he's not confident enough in ANY of his reads to recommend a Vig shot on anyone.
And in that same post gives himself from to backtrack on his current reads and even opens up a few more for himself.
Current Reads being the key phrase there. Half the reason I focused on you is that I just wanted to see if you would get around to explaining yourself or not (you didn't, until Kaburi started noticing). This post actually goes a long way towards that, but it's a little late for me.
And I didn't want to give Arnnaria any ideas before I'm sure of any of my reads. When I flip town after your wagon is done, it'll be pretty obvious who the scum were here, so there was no point giving him bad ideas based on how I feel about the game right now.
If any one wants to see examples of scum posts, read 391 & 399.
Or just read MM8, when I was town, and made the exact same kinds of posts.
I've found that self-metagaming is a pretty consistent scumtell.
Right here you're basically saying "I made sure I'm posting the same way I was when I was town in my last game."
That's great; you're making sure it looks as 'townie' and 'exact same' as possible instead of being genuine and writing what you feel.
If any one wants to see examples of scum posts, read 391 & 399.
Or just read MM8, when I was town, and made the exact same kinds of posts.
I've found that self-metagaming is a pretty consistent scumtell.
Right here you're basically saying "I made sure I'm posting the same way I was when I was town in my last game."
That's great; you're making sure it looks as 'townie' and 'exact same' as possible instead of being genuine and writing what you feel.
Then why does every "experienced" "good" player do it all the damn time? Every game I read, half the posts are that kind of self-referential bull****. "Oh, this is just like players x and y is game z," or "read game q to see me being scum" or "this is another gambit just like player d in game c". Mafia is just one big circlejerk of metagaming.
Karn is calling the former scummy. Which it is. The latter is a perfectly valid tool for playing the game, no matter how bitter of a taste it may leave in your mouth.
Karn is calling the former scummy. Which it is. The latter is a perfectly valid tool for playing the game, no matter how bitter of a taste it may leave in your mouth.
Why is it suddenly such a scum tell toDay when I did literally the exact same thing yesterDay (citing the exact same GAME, no less) and no one batted an eye?
I completely missed a couple pieces of information (like the Doctor) which I've explained changes my opinion. I'm not continuing to push anything, I was just putting my thoughts on the subject out there.
I agree that there is no reason to rush, but where should we draw the line for claims? Should I have claimed at L-3 because L-4 is too risky? Or do we just wait for next week in real time.
I don't see any reason to change the standard "claim at L-2." A vig keeps people honest, there, and punishes quickhammering pretty hard. Rushing is still bad, but we shouldn't let yesterday's quicklynch scare us.
Do you want to claim then jay? There is nothing stopping you, you were at L-2.
Speaking of that, Jay's response was that he didn't want to claim (which no one really wants to, but people do anyway because that's how the game goes), not that he thinks he shouldn't claim. The whole issue seems to have gotten dropped past that, which is unfortunate.
So, Jay: Ignoring whether or not you want to claim due to having been voted to L-2 at one point, do you think you should claim? Why or why not?
Then why does every "experienced" "good" player do it all the damn time? Every game I read, half the posts are that kind of self-referential bull****. "Oh, this is just like players x and y is game z," or "read game q to see me being scum" or "this is another gambit just like player d in game c". Mafia is just one big circlejerk of metagaming.
vote: Sir Karn
Self-meta is when you apply the arguments to yourself. It's scummy because if you're self-aware enough to know your own meta that well, you know how to fit into that meta. Town has no need to put effort into fitting a specific pattern of behaviour. Scum does.
Meta can be a useful tool for analyzing others, though, given that they may not know their meta well enough to manipulate their behaviour to fall into it.
That said, I don't think this vote is scum-fueled. It just seems like a bad townie vote over a personal annoyance, which is unhelpful, but not malicious.
If any one wants to see examples of scum posts, read 391 & 399.
Or just read MM8, when I was town, and made the exact same kinds of posts.
I've found that self-metagaming is a pretty consistent scumtell.
Right here you're basically saying "I made sure I'm posting the same way I was when I was town in my last game."
That's great; you're making sure it looks as 'townie' and 'exact same' as possible instead of being genuine and writing what you feel.
Then why does every "experienced" "good" player do it all the damn time? Every game I read, half the posts are that kind of self-referential bull****. "Oh, this is just like players x and y is game z," or "read game q to see me being scum" or "this is another gambit just like player d in game c". Mafia is just one big circlejerk of metagaming.
Karn is calling the former scummy. Which it is. The latter is a perfectly valid tool for playing the game, no matter how bitter of a taste it may leave in your mouth.
If you had explained yourself in the first place, I wouldn't have voted for you. Trying to explain it away by claiming it's an OMGUS when I specifically said 'Nice Evasion' is weak.
"I said 'Nice Evasion' so it's definitely not omgus."
Also, now that I explained things, why are you still voting me? Because you don't like my posting style? It's the exact same as yesterDay when I was town though - I made sure of it.
That's great; you're making sure it looks as 'townie' and 'exact same' as possible instead of being genuine and writing what you feel.
And where exactly has attempting to be genuine got me? At this point, anything I do is a 'scum tell'.
Responding to your other point, I still want to know what you meant by that 'thank me later' comment, as it implied you were the doctor yesterday and thus should have already known most of the information you pressed on earlier toDay - when you actually answer that, I'll unvote you.
Changing an opinion based on information I'd missed is waffling? I thought that was just called being a reasonable human being.
So, Jay: Ignoring whether or not you want to claim due to having been voted to L-2 at one point, do you think you should claim? Why or why not?
I'm not going to claim because it's not going to help me or the town to do so right now. How would it? If I'm a PR, I help the scum team by being truthful. If I'm a VT, it'll be taken as further evidence that I'm scum. If I false claim, I'll get Hansanator'd right out of this game. (Sorry for the reference, but I learned a lot from Hansanator on Day One of MM8)
No thanks.
Self-meta is when you apply the arguments to yourself. It's scummy because if you're self-aware enough to know your own meta that well, you know how to fit into that meta. Town has no need to put effort into fitting a specific pattern of behaviour. Scum does.
This is a silly line of reasoning. The first step for everyone in Mafia, Scum and Town, is convincing people you are town. After all, scum hunting is just a witch hunt, not actual detective work that will exonerate the innocent.
Scum tells are at best half-baked superstitions based on something that's been true a couple times but also wrong a bunch of times. If there are so many 'good' scum tells, why are mislynches so common? Because there aren't actually any good scum tells, there are just good ways to convince yourself and others that someone is scum by establishing a context in which someone is supposed to act a certain way. That's great when you're trying to convict someone, which is what we're doing in Mafia, but not so great when you're trying to find the truth.
So since the entire game hinges on how people are supposed to act, of course the town needs to modify their behavior to fit in. You may not be a witch, but you sure as hell better not be an old hag living alone in the woods, either. This game isn't about logic or reason or being genuine, it's about surviving the mob mentality. The best way to survive a mob is act like they want you to act.
'Scum tells' might be as good a first step as you can get in a forum-based game, but you shouldn't over rely on archetypes, as they'll make you arrogant and lazy.
Responding to your other point, I still want to know what you meant by that 'thank me later' comment, as it implied you were the doctor yesterday and thus should have already known most of the information you pressed on earlier toDay - when you actually answer that, I'll unvote you.
So, Jay: Ignoring whether or not you want to claim due to having been voted to L-2 at one point, do you think you should claim? Why or why not?
I'm not going to claim because it's not going to help me or the town to do so right now. How would it? If I'm a PR, I help the scum team by being truthful. If I'm a VT, it'll be taken as further evidence that I'm scum. If I false claim, I'll get Hansanator'd right out of this game. (Sorry for the reference, but I learned a lot from Hansanator on Day One of MM8)
Self-meta is when you apply the arguments to yourself. It's scummy because if you're self-aware enough to know your own meta that well, you know how to fit into that meta. Town has no need to put effort into fitting a specific pattern of behaviour. Scum does.
This is a silly line of reasoning. The first step for everyone in Mafia, Scum and Town, is convincing people you are town. After all, scum hunting is just a witch hunt, not actual detective work that will exonerate the innocent.
Scum tells are at best half-baked superstitions based on something that's been true a couple times but also wrong a bunch of times. If there are so many 'good' scum tells, why are mislynches so common? Because there aren't actually any good scum tells, there are just good ways to convince yourself and others that someone is scum by establishing a context in which someone is supposed to act a certain way. That's great when you're trying to convict someone, which is what we're doing in Mafia, but not so great when you're trying to find the truth.
So since the entire game hinges on how people are supposed to act, of course the town needs to modify their behavior to fit in. You may not be a witch, but you sure as hell better not be an old hag living alone in the woods, either. This game isn't about logic or reason or being genuine, it's about surviving the mob mentality. The best way to survive a mob is act like they want you to act.
'Scum tells' might be as good a first step as you can get in a forum-based game, but you shouldn't over rely on archetypes, as they'll make you arrogant and lazy.
You're trying to strawman by saying the ENTIRE case against you relies on 'scum tells' when, in reality, it does not.
---
So, anyone who hasn't already, put your vote on Jay.
My question to teia, GM and sir karn are as follows: who are your top scum picks at current game state? If they differ for the two I named can you please give reasons for the new name in the frame.
Jay, obviously, because he's obvscumming it up like crazy. My other pick would be BV, not helped by his "I'm not going to bother to read that carefully before voting for someone other than the one I said I'm suspicious of" thing reading like bad scum distancing.
I'm not going to claim because it's not going to help me or the town to do so right now. How would it? If I'm a PR, I help the scum team by being truthful. If I'm a VT, it'll be taken as further evidence that I'm scum. If I false claim, I'll get Hansanator'd right out of this game. (Sorry for the reference, but I learned a lot from Hansanator on Day One of MM8)
No thanks.
So despite being put to L-2, you're going to claim because, in essence, you'll just get lynched anyway. But the point of lynching someone after a VT claim is that it can still help the town by providing information. If you're a PR and you claim, then you save us killing one of our PRs, which helps the town immensely. Your mindset here is not a town one, but a scum one. You're considering things from the angle of what's best for you, not what's best for the town, and that's a scum mindset if I ever saw one.
This is a silly line of reasoning. The first step for everyone in Mafia, Scum and Town, is convincing people you are town. After all, scum hunting is just a witch hunt, not actual detective work that will exonerate the innocent.
Scum tells are at best half-baked superstitions based on something that's been true a couple times but also wrong a bunch of times. If there are so many 'good' scum tells, why are mislynches so common? Because there aren't actually any good scum tells, there are just good ways to convince yourself and others that someone is scum by establishing a context in which someone is supposed to act a certain way. That's great when you're trying to convict someone, which is what we're doing in Mafia, but not so great when you're trying to find the truth.
So since the entire game hinges on how people are supposed to act, of course the town needs to modify their behavior to fit in. You may not be a witch, but you sure as hell better not be an old hag living alone in the woods, either. This game isn't about logic or reason or being genuine, it's about surviving the mob mentality. The best way to survive a mob is act like they want you to act.
'Scum tells' might be as good a first step as you can get in a forum-based game, but you shouldn't over rely on archetypes, as they'll make you arrogant and lazy.
So Jax13x, you're L-2 and it doesn't look like that's changing immediately (like it did last time). I was less convinced you were Scum after a few posts, but your more recent posts have me leaning scum again. I'm prepared to vote, but I'd like to give you the chance to claim first.
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I think he's implying that he's actually town and the people involved in the lynching of him are scum.
The only person I'd question heavily if Jay flips town is Karn, because he's been pushing super hard for it. However, that also seems to just be Karn's playstyle.
Anyways, I've seen enough. Vote Jay13x
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So... you guys really mislynched me without tracking down the other scum properly? Or before everyone was actually back from the holidays? This convinces me of my rant in 438 more than ever. Jumping at 'scum tells' makes you lazy. It's my mistake for not realizing mob justice wouldn't respond to reason
Sorry for being such an easy wagon target. I knew this mislynch was inevitable days ago, but now at least the town is only losing a Vanilla role. Next Modfia I'll post less so that I can't be so easily and repeatedly misconstrued, it was my mistake early on and I'd already done too much damage to not be a prime target by the time I realized it.
Arnnaria, if you're really the vig, take a look at the people who pushed this mislynch, and who jumped in the end. That's what I meant by 'take notes'.
And before I die, I want you all to know... Always low prices... always.
Jay13x, the leader of Wal-Mart? Obviously he must be evil and aligned with the mafia. That’s what Wal-Mart does! Evil things. Bringing the full weight of the US Wage and Hour Division, OSHA, FDA and even the EPA down on him, Jay13x can hardly cope with all the governmental intervention. After all is said and fined, Jay13x’s company collapses in financial ruin. Now, to find out about his mafia contact!
You are Wal-Mart, Town Business
Known for: incredibly low prices, incredibly low wages
You built your empire on being cheaper than the competition. Of course, this means cutting elsewhere to make profit, and your employees have a lower than average wage. It also means that sometimes, customers can expect to get what they pay for. But then, when you’re paying $5 for a pair of Jeans, you don’t mind if you have to buy a new pair every 3 months.
You may vote.
It seems that while Jay13x may have been a greedy corporation, he was completely within the law and working to save the other businesses.
Night 2 begins now. If you have a night action, you have 72 hours to submit it! Dawn 3 will begin on January 9th.
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She wants a ride on the pony, dude.
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Kill shot: BB
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There was much weeping and gnashing of teeth, and Magic: the Gathering Salvation lost its administrator ExpiredRascals. Without the proper platform for computing, he just couldn't bear to surf the internet on a Windows machine.
It seems there was a major theft of microchips, all destined for California. Another company brought down in the night. Shockwave07 has been put out of business.
You are Apple, Town Business
Known for: Excellent aesthetics, incredibly high prices
You pride yourself on the human interface of all your products. If you could create a device that lets someone take over the world, but it required flipping through 5 or 6 screens you wouldn’t sell it. Being able to push a button and command your phone to do something is just that important.
You may vote.
Shockwave07's amazing and fashionable products on the shelf are the last ones of their kind. Computing will never be the same. Night 2 comes to an end, and Dawn 3 begins!
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She wants a ride on the pony, dude.
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I'm here filling in for Blackvise! Would someone please give me a lay down of what has happened in this game? I don't have time to read the entire thread at the moment and don't know when that chance will come. Thanks in advance!
Not bring too nasty to dhockwave but he wasn't a driving force in this game.
Sorry guys, we were scum on day 2. Tom was too again, so he really isn't having much luck this game with the draw
What I'm finding amusing about this mechanic is we knew where the vig was, we had suspicions on the doc and we chose to no kill with a town philosophy
We even refused to kill sir karn co she is an asset when town ( I know you won't agree with his play yesterday, but have faith in the latter stages assuming he isn't scum by then).
Anyway, I'm afraid jay made it a little bit easy to get that mislynch, but it's funny how you feel as scum. It's like an itchy jumper you got as a gift from gran and have to wear cos she is visiting. You ride it out uncomfortably knowing you have to pretend, waiting for her to leave and take that POS off.
Anyway, gotta confer with Proph about game state but scum teams appear to have day chat, don't remember if Tom mentioned that in his previous 'confession' because obviously he was still stuck in a team at the time. So bear in mind potentially two players are able to sync up or even intervene to advise their mate mid game.
~ G
Interesting. You guys chose a no kill? We'd talked about that Day 1, and Tom was definitely the biggest proponent of it.
I think it's interesting that Arnnaria chose to kill at all. His last post was that he was going to hit BV if Jay flipped scum, but no indication on what to do otherwise. I'd definitely thought that the scum would have been the ones to take out Shockwave, with the vig either holding his shot (as Arn) or aiming at Arn and getting doc-blocked (if Arn was lying).
I definitely didn't suspect you of being Scum yesterDay, which means I'm going to be keeping my eye on you even more closely. I wasn't thinking Tom was either, as I figured, like me, he wouldn't have rolled Scum again. Also he was the first to share the info. (Though that whole withholding thing was a clue in retrospect).
I do believe Tom mentioned originally that the Scum had Day Chat.
They have dawn chat, day chat, night chat... all-the-time chat.
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With 9 alive it takes 5 to lynch!
In our defense, yesterday you posted that it was Dawn 2 for 24 hours, no posting.
Today you just posted that it was Dawn 3, no indicator of duration or forbidding of posting.
Anyhow...
Vote Arnnaria for taking a vig shot more or less at random.
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Hey yes I was scum yesterday but I'm town today, I pinky-swear.
@Void: I recommend you read the very start of Day 2, because there is a lot of information about the roles in the game and how it all works. Beyond that, each Day is basically like Day 1 again, because the roles are randomized and actions or interactions in the previous Days have no bearing. Only meta and the actions on the current day really matter. This gives the town a disadvantage, but the mafia also have a disadvantage because they aren't really playing to win. I actually feel the set-up is pretty even, if the mafias continue to not use their NK (which is probably the smart choice).
Anyway it is RVS again, Vote Sir Karn for 459; acting like your reads were super important after you had just mislynched Jay.
I think it's interesting that Arnnaria chose to kill at all.
Why do you think it's interesting?
--
I'm quite apathetic about how slow this game is going, and randomizing alignments sucks - I griped in the scumchat about not making moves that would bite me in the back as town later.
Meh, we'll see.
~p
I don't think any of our reads were strong enough to risk killing one of the town. I stated as much when Arn asked who we'd kill in his position. He also said just before making the hammering vote that he'd vote BV if Jay was scum, implying he had a stronger read there. The Shockwave kill seemed to me to be pretty random, though he said he read through the day twice so maybe he picked up some things I missed.
Like I said before, I think the vig is here to keep the scum honest and not quickhammering. Using it without a dead giveaway seems reckless and counterproductive - unless you're really thinking with a Survivor mindset.
Anyhow, his response didn't give anything scummy away, so it's worn out its usefulness as an RVS vote, no real reason to leave it sitting there. Unvote
I do agree with your apathy. As I said in day 1 scumchat, I'm not sure this even truly counts as Mafia, since you can't use any evidence from one day in the next.
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Yeah, but he did the same thing in MM7. (For the non-mods who can't see it, BV and parinoid were both scum, both went super-lurktastic the closer we got to endgame, and it got the entire town to implode on ourselves after they took out the stronger players. It fits scum!BV from that game.)
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He didn't even vote anyone in his big post listing his suspects. (afraid to commit)
That along with the fact that anyone who reads that post and checks the posts Jay references can see the falsities are pouring out of his every orifice.
Adding to that: the manner in which he is omgusing me. OMGUS is not inherently scummy nor townie (so I've learned over many-a-game), but the manner in which one does it can definitely give things away.
Funny too: one post after he voted me, he tells Arnnaria he's not confident enough in ANY of his reads to recommend a Vig shot on anyone.
And in that same post gives himself from to backtrack on his current reads and even opens up a few more for himself.
If any one wants to see examples of scum posts, read 391 & 399.
Just wondering because it looks like you two kind of melded together for that post (maybe you did).
I think if we are looking a Jay's town/scum list in 391, I'm going to have to quote Asenion from Polyopticon when he caught me as scum in the midst of a list: "men have opinions, scum summarize.". Let's look at each of these reads...
Arnnaria: Opinion
Kaburi: Opinion
Teia: Opinion
Tom: Opinion
Karn: Opinion
Specific: Opinion
Shockwave: Summary
GM: Summary
Wildfire: Opinion
BV: Summary (with weak rhetorical)
Hence, if we do lynch Jay and he flips scum, I'm looking to use my vig on Shockwave, GM, and BV.
guess which ones
Also, Vote Count:
Sir Karn (1) - Jay13x
Jay13x (3) - Sir Karn, Teia Rabishu, BlackVise
Arnnaria (1) - Shockwave07
BlackVise (2) - Specific, Tom
Not Voting (4) - kaburi, Gerrard's Mom, Arnnaria, Wildfire393
With 11 alive it takes 6 to lynch
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Well, when someone posts almost two pages of comments calling you out for being wrong, in general it's my philosophy to actually see if I'm wrong
How is that helpful to the Town? Why should I think something that unhelpful is town fueled?
Day One Sir Karn explained everything he did, even if it was terse. Day Two Sir Karn didn't explain anything or provide analysis until after both Kaburi and I have called him out on it (except to ask questions early in the Day that he should already know the answers to). When the roles change every day and your tone suddenly changes from explanatory to dismissive, that seems like a major red flag to me. Continuing to be dismissive when you're supposedly town helps no one make good reads.
And how has being afraid to commit changed anything for me? I didn't want to commit yesterDay, either.
Have you considered that maybe it's your attitude in approaching me, and not you just voting for me, that caused me to vote for you? It was your dismissiveness, not your vote, that caused me to vote for you. Plenty of people have voted for me so far, but I'm pretty sure they're all town.
If you had explained yourself in the first place, I wouldn't have voted for you. Trying to explain it away by claiming it's an OMGUS when I specifically said 'Nice Evasion' is weak.
Current Reads being the key phrase there. Half the reason I focused on you is that I just wanted to see if you would get around to explaining yourself or not (you didn't, until Kaburi started noticing). This post actually goes a long way towards that, but it's a little late for me.
And I didn't want to give Arnnaria any ideas before I'm sure of any of my reads. When I flip town after your wagon is done, it'll be pretty obvious who the scum were here, so there was no point giving him bad ideas based on how I feel about the game right now.
Or just read MM8, when I was town, and made the exact same kinds of posts.
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Do you really think I felt pressured by Kaburi?
lol
--
I've found that self-metagaming is a pretty consistent scumtell.
Right here you're basically saying "I made sure I'm posting the same way I was when I was town in my last game."
That's great; you're making sure it looks as 'townie' and 'exact same' as possible instead of being genuine and writing what you feel.
Then why does every "experienced" "good" player do it all the damn time? Every game I read, half the posts are that kind of self-referential bull****. "Oh, this is just like players x and y is game z," or "read game q to see me being scum" or "this is another gambit just like player d in game c". Mafia is just one big circlejerk of metagaming.
vote: Sir Karn
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Karn is calling the former scummy. Which it is. The latter is a perfectly valid tool for playing the game, no matter how bitter of a taste it may leave in your mouth.
Why is it suddenly such a scum tell toDay when I did literally the exact same thing yesterDay (citing the exact same GAME, no less) and no one batted an eye?
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Waffling.
I don't see any reason to change the standard "claim at L-2." A vig keeps people honest, there, and punishes quickhammering pretty hard. Rushing is still bad, but we shouldn't let yesterday's quicklynch scare us.
Speaking of that, Jay's response was that he didn't want to claim (which no one really wants to, but people do anyway because that's how the game goes), not that he thinks he shouldn't claim. The whole issue seems to have gotten dropped past that, which is unfortunate.
So, Jay: Ignoring whether or not you want to claim due to having been voted to L-2 at one point, do you think you should claim? Why or why not?
This feels like scum flailing.
You're voting despite having "only done a brief read of things"?
It can work, depending on the player's personality and approach to the game. Megs, for instance, had a very arrogant town game in MM5.
Self-meta is when you apply the arguments to yourself. It's scummy because if you're self-aware enough to know your own meta that well, you know how to fit into that meta. Town has no need to put effort into fitting a specific pattern of behaviour. Scum does.
Meta can be a useful tool for analyzing others, though, given that they may not know their meta well enough to manipulate their behaviour to fall into it.
That said, I don't think this vote is scum-fueled. It just seems like a bad townie vote over a personal annoyance, which is unhelpful, but not malicious.
get Void on the line
hmmm
"I said 'Nice Evasion' so it's definitely not omgus."
Also, now that I explained things, why are you still voting me? Because you don't like my posting style? It's the exact same as yesterDay when I was town though - I made sure of it.
I'll let you know before the Day ends so Vig knows who to shoot.
Also, uh, game related: who were the two you noted?
And where exactly has attempting to be genuine got me? At this point, anything I do is a 'scum tell'.
Responding to your other point, I still want to know what you meant by that 'thank me later' comment, as it implied you were the doctor yesterday and thus should have already known most of the information you pressed on earlier toDay - when you actually answer that, I'll unvote you.
Changing an opinion based on information I'd missed is waffling? I thought that was just called being a reasonable human being.
I'm not going to claim because it's not going to help me or the town to do so right now. How would it? If I'm a PR, I help the scum team by being truthful. If I'm a VT, it'll be taken as further evidence that I'm scum. If I false claim, I'll get Hansanator'd right out of this game. (Sorry for the reference, but I learned a lot from Hansanator on Day One of MM8)
No thanks.
This is a silly line of reasoning. The first step for everyone in Mafia, Scum and Town, is convincing people you are town. After all, scum hunting is just a witch hunt, not actual detective work that will exonerate the innocent.
Scum tells are at best half-baked superstitions based on something that's been true a couple times but also wrong a bunch of times. If there are so many 'good' scum tells, why are mislynches so common? Because there aren't actually any good scum tells, there are just good ways to convince yourself and others that someone is scum by establishing a context in which someone is supposed to act a certain way. That's great when you're trying to convict someone, which is what we're doing in Mafia, but not so great when you're trying to find the truth.
So since the entire game hinges on how people are supposed to act, of course the town needs to modify their behavior to fit in. You may not be a witch, but you sure as hell better not be an old hag living alone in the woods, either. This game isn't about logic or reason or being genuine, it's about surviving the mob mentality. The best way to survive a mob is act like they want you to act.
'Scum tells' might be as good a first step as you can get in a forum-based game, but you shouldn't over rely on archetypes, as they'll make you arrogant and lazy.
TerribleBad at Magic since 1998.A Vorthos Guide to Magic Story | Twitter | Tumblr
[Primer] Krenko | Azor | Kess | Zacama | Kumena | Sram | The Ur-Dragon | Edgar Markov | Daretti | Marath
lel
Confesses to trying to craft posts to look exactly the same as his town game - then pulls the 'woe is me' as an excuse for doing it.
Your vote on me is fine sitting there.
So you'd prefer to get lynched rather than claim.
You're trying to strawman by saying the ENTIRE case against you relies on 'scum tells' when, in reality, it does not.
---
So, anyone who hasn't already, put your vote on Jay.
Jay, obviously, because he's obvscumming it up like crazy. My other pick would be BV, not helped by his "I'm not going to bother to read that carefully before voting for someone other than the one I said I'm suspicious of" thing reading like bad scum distancing.
So despite being put to L-2, you're going to claim because, in essence, you'll just get lynched anyway. But the point of lynching someone after a VT claim is that it can still help the town by providing information. If you're a PR and you claim, then you save us killing one of our PRs, which helps the town immensely. Your mindset here is not a town one, but a scum one. You're considering things from the angle of what's best for you, not what's best for the town, and that's a scum mindset if I ever saw one.
Get lynched.
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Lynching one and vigging the other is a good idea. I'm very confident that at least one of them will flip scum if not both.
It seems as most people feel stronger about Jay. I'll put my vote there if he doesn't claim in his next post.
Get it over with, and Arnnaria, take note.
TerribleBad at Magic since 1998.A Vorthos Guide to Magic Story | Twitter | Tumblr
[Primer] Krenko | Azor | Kess | Zacama | Kumena | Sram | The Ur-Dragon | Edgar Markov | Daretti | Marath
TerribleBad at Magic since 1998.A Vorthos Guide to Magic Story | Twitter | Tumblr
[Primer] Krenko | Azor | Kess | Zacama | Kumena | Sram | The Ur-Dragon | Edgar Markov | Daretti | Marath
I think he's implying that he's actually town and the people involved in the lynching of him are scum.
The only person I'd question heavily if Jay flips town is Karn, because he's been pushing super hard for it. However, that also seems to just be Karn's playstyle.
Anyways, I've seen enough.
Vote Jay13x
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Sir Karn (2) - Jay13x, kaburi
Jay13x (5) - Sir Karn, Specific, Teia Rabishu, Wildfire393, BlackVise
Arnnaria (1) - Shockwave07
BlackVise (1) - Tom
Not Voting (2) - Gerrard's Mom, Arnnaria
With 11 alive it takes 6 to lynch
Side note: I have contacted Void. As it's been the weekend, I've been waiting to see if he responds either today or tomorrow.
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If Jay flips scum, I'm shooting BlackVise.
And what if he flips Town? Do you still shoot BV?
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Vote Count:
Sir Karn (2) - Jay13x, kaburi
Jay13x (6) - Sir Karn, Teia Rabishu, BlackVise, Specific, Wildfire393, Arnnaria
Arnnaria (1) - Shockwave07
BlackVise (1) - Tom
Not Voting (1) - Gerrard's Mom
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Kill shot: BB
Issue with my shooting? Please visit my helpdesk and help me learn to aim!
Sorry for being such an easy wagon target. I knew this mislynch was inevitable days ago, but now at least the town is only losing a Vanilla role. Next Modfia I'll post less so that I can't be so easily and repeatedly misconstrued, it was my mistake early on and I'd already done too much damage to not be a prime target by the time I realized it.
Arnnaria, if you're really the vig, take a look at the people who pushed this mislynch, and who jumped in the end. That's what I meant by 'take notes'.
And before I die, I want you all to know... Always low prices... always.
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[Primer] Krenko | Azor | Kess | Zacama | Kumena | Sram | The Ur-Dragon | Edgar Markov | Daretti | Marath
Known for: incredibly low prices, incredibly low wages
You built your empire on being cheaper than the competition. Of course, this means cutting elsewhere to make profit, and your employees have a lower than average wage. It also means that sometimes, customers can expect to get what they pay for. But then, when you’re paying $5 for a pair of Jeans, you don’t mind if you have to buy a new pair every 3 months.
You may vote.
Night 2 begins now. If you have a night action, you have 72 hours to submit it! Dawn 3 will begin on January 9th.
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Kill shot: BB
Issue with my shooting? Please visit my helpdesk and help me learn to aim!
It seems there was a major theft of microchips, all destined for California. Another company brought down in the night. Shockwave07 has been put out of business.
Known for: Excellent aesthetics, incredibly high prices
You pride yourself on the human interface of all your products. If you could create a device that lets someone take over the world, but it required flipping through 5 or 6 screens you wouldn’t sell it. Being able to push a button and command your phone to do something is just that important.
You may vote.
Night 2 comes to an end, and Dawn 3 begins!
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Kill shot: BB
Issue with my shooting? Please visit my helpdesk and help me learn to aim!
Don't do that **** again.
Fools
(Only saying this because I don't think TK is around)
Interesting. You guys chose a no kill? We'd talked about that Day 1, and Tom was definitely the biggest proponent of it.
I think it's interesting that Arnnaria chose to kill at all. His last post was that he was going to hit BV if Jay flipped scum, but no indication on what to do otherwise. I'd definitely thought that the scum would have been the ones to take out Shockwave, with the vig either holding his shot (as Arn) or aiming at Arn and getting doc-blocked (if Arn was lying).
I definitely didn't suspect you of being Scum yesterDay, which means I'm going to be keeping my eye on you even more closely. I wasn't thinking Tom was either, as I figured, like me, he wouldn't have rolled Scum again. Also he was the first to share the info. (Though that whole withholding thing was a clue in retrospect).
I do believe Tom mentioned originally that the Scum had Day Chat.
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I give everyone 24 hours of Dawn so that they may ask any questions regarding their new roles before starting play. I won't punish this time, but
PLEASE REMEMBER IN THE FUTURE! NO TALKING DURING DAWN!
With 9 alive it takes 5 to lynch!
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Kill shot: BB
Issue with my shooting? Please visit my helpdesk and help me learn to aim!
He's probably scum again
In our defense, yesterday you posted that it was Dawn 2 for 24 hours, no posting.
Today you just posted that it was Dawn 3, no indicator of duration or forbidding of posting.
Anyhow...
Vote Arnnaria for taking a vig shot more or less at random.
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@Void: I recommend you read the very start of Day 2, because there is a lot of information about the roles in the game and how it all works. Beyond that, each Day is basically like Day 1 again, because the roles are randomized and actions or interactions in the previous Days have no bearing. Only meta and the actions on the current day really matter. This gives the town a disadvantage, but the mafia also have a disadvantage because they aren't really playing to win. I actually feel the set-up is pretty even, if the mafias continue to not use their NK (which is probably the smart choice).
Anyway it is RVS again, Vote Sir Karn for 459; acting like your reads were super important after you had just mislynched Jay.
Sure, sure. But the first few votes of every day are more or less RVS.
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Also wanted to hear his reasoning and verify that it was indeed him that shot.
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I don't think any of our reads were strong enough to risk killing one of the town. I stated as much when Arn asked who we'd kill in his position. He also said just before making the hammering vote that he'd vote BV if Jay was scum, implying he had a stronger read there. The Shockwave kill seemed to me to be pretty random, though he said he read through the day twice so maybe he picked up some things I missed.
Like I said before, I think the vig is here to keep the scum honest and not quickhammering. Using it without a dead giveaway seems reckless and counterproductive - unless you're really thinking with a Survivor mindset.
Anyhow, his response didn't give anything scummy away, so it's worn out its usefulness as an RVS vote, no real reason to leave it sitting there. Unvote
I do agree with your apathy. As I said in day 1 scumchat, I'm not sure this even truly counts as Mafia, since you can't use any evidence from one day in the next.
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so yesterday townies quick lynched Jay, scum killed nobody and Arnaria shot Shockwave?
I don't understand how this game is supposed to work