I think any of the folks I've played with before meta is factored in somewhat. Some more than others though. They weren't included in my list because I was just pointing to specific posts that helped from my reads.
Okay. Besides me, who is here that you haven't played with.
his T/S list makes fulcrum look pretty suspect and says Cythare is probably town
Are you still on cythare because of their vote on hansanator?
No, the suspect thing about Cythare's vote was her position on the RVS wagon. I haven't seen anything else from her in terms of content that puts her on my radar.
You're voting Rhand and Rhand claims. No comment on the claim?
You've been fighting fulcrum thus far. No comments on what is going on right now?
What did you want me to say about the claim? "I believe it"/"I don't believe it"? I have no interest in lynching a claimed doc, but I don't see the issue with not unvoting. I wanted to wait to see if anything came out in the wash.
In terms of gan_dan/EtR: I have no context for ganderin_dan's behavior, but wasn't a fan of EtR's post, specifically some of his reasoning on Rezombied.
What do you think of my case on gan_dan?
What do you think of my PBPAish thing on you?
Besides fulcrum and Rhand, what are your reads?
I haven't gotten much from you thus far, and I'm not content with letting you skate by by quotewarring fulcrum all day.
1) I'm not very aware of ganderin_dan's meta, due to having never played with him except in Cyberspace Mafia (where he replaced in shortly before I was forcibly replaced). Aside from that, is aggression something that you associate with scum!gan_dan? Ultimately, your case on gan_dan doesn't sell me on his slot being scum due to unfamiliarity with his style, but seems like a legitimate starting point, and EtR's play seems scummy to me so far. The one exception that I find notable, though, is his reaction to my third vote compared to dkingsland (which I only realized just now upon reviewing both your case on gan_dan and your review of me). I doubt that the 2 players that would go after me for a 3rd RVS vote would both be scum, and dkings was much more level-headed about it. gan_dan's looked like an attempt to make me look worse by capitalizing on something pointed out by another player.
2) I thought I commented on this, but apparently didn't (only had the responding question re:fulcrum). I asked you about your feelings on fulcrum because one of your points against me was the succinctness of my RVS vote, which was about as succinct as fulcrum's. I was curious to see if that was something you'd at least address in your response.
I didn't like your "I guess Cythare can interpret this as smearing", but apparently this is something that I've just managed to miss during my career here. He was the first one to bring it up, so it just looked to me like an attempt to make me look bad by referencing something I'd never encountered before. Knowing that to be a thing now, though, I can get where everyone is coming from, though.
To answer your question that came with it: dkings explanation made sense, so no, I would not consider it smearing. I haven't gone back to review his posts in a while, but I did leave my vote on him for a while because I kept thinking he was still scummy.
I didn't shift my vote to fulcrum because I wanted to shift my vote to Shockwave and didn't want to start a counterwagon when I felt that the active wagon was a scummy player. He's still on the scummy end of the spectrum for me (although his later responses have been better), but despite the extended back and forth, he's never been my top scum read, so hasn't warranted my vote.
You "haven't gotten much from me", but I have done things other than quotewar with fulcrum. I'll provide a T/S list sometime soonish after I review and gather my thoughts.
In the meantime, unvote because Rhand hasn't been CCed.
Hey fulcrum why did you disguise your unvote of Rhand, a wagon that wouldn't go through after his claim, as pressure on me over an irrelevant question?
I don't like Tan much, but it's more of a gut feeling than anything else. There's also something very very wrong with fulcrum. Gotta get a reread.
I have no qualms in lynching Rhand, as something in the back of my head tells me Rodemy's outburst was a sham because reasons. But he's at L-2 and we ought to hear his claim. So Rhand, please claim.
It's been almost 3 weeks, how'd that reread of fulcrum go?
EtR, if you have the time and ability to do so, case somebody. I can't get a good read on you while you're doing nothing but defending yourself, and I can't distinguish my suspicion of your slot between you and Dan until that happens.
-----
I like Tanarin more over these last few pages.
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We're still pretty stalled, and I think that we need some order to frame the discussion. I feel like the conversation is being deftly manipulated to keep us running in circles.
Let's list our top three suspects, and focus on those who appear most commonly.
Mine, in no order other than convenience:
EtR/Dan: Proph's points were strong, and I had a meta read. EtR hasn't impressed thusfar, doing nothing but defense since replacing in (admittedly, into a bad situation).
Shockwave/rebel: Rebel's play earlier still comes off as scummy-as-hell to me; Shockwave has spent most of the game lately floating by and accomplishing little.
Fulcrum: Has produced content, but it's mostly defenses of various people and is fairly reflexive -- rarely proactive. This is my first time playing with her, though, and as such I'm not sure what to expect. In a metaless void, though, I haven't liked her posts overall -- and feel like she is the one guiding conversation. Her "white knight" post, for example, locked down discussion for a good week.
We're still pretty stalled, and I think that we need some order to frame the discussion. I feel like the conversation is being deftly manipulated to keep us running in circles.
That's because I believe this day has gone on long enough. I want to lynch EtR and evaluate based on his flip. Notice that he has Kosa as leaning town yet never unvotes him.
EtR/hans/shock?
Also why is fulcrum voting Kosakosa while she has stated her gut reaction was that she liked the case against EtR and there's been two claims already
Oh ok, so let me get this straight. By not questioning my question, you, in fact, just admitted that:
1) Your pressure on me was fabricated by your necessity to unvote Rhand without gathering suspicion, since he would never been lynched with such a claim;
2) You're asking irrelevant questions.
And I'm the scum?
Which reminds me that I don't remember you ever calling/having me as scum bar one little fencesitty smear in #209. So please enlighten us on your thought process here because I'm not seeing it.
I don't get where you're trying to go with that question, since its been already answered in the very post you've quoted: since Arn is highly regarded as a good, meticulous mod, it's much more likely that scum are aware about town's wincon because they were given it directly than to consider that Arn would screw the scumteam over PM formatting issues. It's Occam.
It has occured to me that there's even a possibility of the opposite: maybe he don't want us to know scum's verbatim wincon. That would make far more sense than Arn slipping up on PM formatting issues over a clearly copypasted OP from his previous game. Thankfully, it's quite easy to confirm if I'm right about this.
Arnmod: what's the scumteam's wincon?
But regardless of it, I don't like you trying to make a fuss out of it. It's way too convenient when coupled with your unvoting of Rhand.
I don't like Tan much, but it's more of a gut feeling than anything else. There's also something very very wrong with fulcrum. Gotta get a reread.
I have no qualms in lynching Rhand, as something in the back of my head tells me Rodemy's outburst was a sham because reasons. But he's at L-2 and we ought to hear his claim. So Rhand, please claim.
It's been almost 3 weeks, how'd that reread of fulcrum go?
How do you feel about Rhand right now?
Never did it, I'm lazy beyond solution during vacations, I fear. Although considering that last exchange, I'm soon(tm) making it a priority.
Rhand? You mean the un-CC'ed doc? He's totally my BFF. Like, Rhand -> <- Me
Fulcrum: Mainly the white knight post that really served no purpose in furthering the progress of the game. For me that seems like something scum would do to try and earn town points, especially given it was about a player that already replaced out. Kosa also raises a good point with fulcrum's vote on Kosa. While the question is not irrelevant, it is hardly worth a vote over it ATM.
rezombied: Haven't like how he has been pretty much floating through the game to this point. He has been saying some stuff, agreeing with people, and pretty much that's it. He has been a part of most of the major wagons in the game, but only after they have picked up steam for the most part (2nd on dking, 5th on shockwave, 4th on rodemy/rhand, and currently not voting on either Kosa or EtR, despite having leanings on both.)
@Kosa: I dunno if I agree with your logic that the scum MUST have the town wincon due to it not being in the OP. Why would it not be possible that scum legit don't have the wincon? I have seen games where mods have left out wincons on purpose. In fact I was cleared as town in one such game, and here are the role PMs.
Oh ok, so let me get this straight. By not questioning my question, you, in fact, just admitted that:
1) Your pressure on me was fabricated by your necessity to unvote Rhand without gathering suspicion, since he would never been lynched with such a claim;
2) You're asking irrelevant questions.
And I'm the scum?
Oh cool, you're admitting that was a terrible, terrible question. That makes this a little easier.
He made three posts in rvs.. and no votes whatsoever.
Except he made an effort to make a joke about being a JoAT.. or not...
and then made an effort to respond to a vote AGAINST him..
Yet no vote... no abstain...
It's odd. haven't seen that behavior in RVS before. Though i can't use the one scum game i know he was scum in because he wasn't IN rvs...
Odd != scummy.
Still haven't explained. Why is not voting in RVS scummy?
In Post 33, Kosa rips into dkings' post. After this attack, he FOS's him in order to vote for Rodemy. The weird thing here is that Rodemy doesn't appear to be that strong of a scum read. His main argument against Rodemy is that he rescinded when hans was at L-2, because there's no way a towny would not want a scumsuspect to not have to claim at the very beginning of the day from RVS votes. The third question to Rodemy:
Is blatantly awful, especially considering who KK's dealing with in the former of the posts. It's too situational to be a pressure vote, and serves as a fantastic springboard into a fresh wagon.
Ok, so you're saying just because I'm voting Rodemy I'm not entitled to question people voting him? Pfft.
The magenta responses in #33 are even worse, somehow. You're criticizing him for responding to the only thing worth responding to, and trying to defend not unvoting someone at L-3 less than 50 posts into a game. It's not the fact that you placed that vote, it's the fact that you make some vain attempt to (inexplicably) defend it while simultaneously mudslinging.
I'm criticizing him for making pointless statements. When I read that post the first thing it occured to me was that DKL was trying too hard to appear the scumhunting townie when in reality his words are devoid of meaningful content.
Also, his (and yours) "He didn't unvote a player at L-3 during RVS! YAAARG HE'S SCUM!" antics are borderline ridiculous.
As opposed to Kosa's "He unvoted a player at L-2 during RVS! YAAARG, HE'S SCUM. Again, we have a misrep, but this time of dkings, as dkings' statement was nowhere near that aggressive.
Toss in a FoS for good measure (Just in case the Rodemy wagon doesn't get any traction? Because it's not going to.), season to taste, simmer.
I consistently FoS people around. Get used to it and stop impersonating Guardman.
Defensive as hell reaction, with a personal attack against gan_dan.
Next up, after the cases against dkings and Rodemy are stalled, we have an attack against iRebel, funnily enough, based on a misrep of iRebel's statements. Is everyone starting to see the pattern here?
The rest of the post is a long ass defense against Tan, gan_dan and dkings. I suspect the iRebel bit was only put in so that the entire post wasn't one long defense.
Post 76 consists of followup on iRebel for the same bull**** point, along with some more overly certain statements about iRebel's alignment ("Please. Just walk your way to the gallows and save us time.").
Post 115 is a ****-ton more defense, as well as a reiteration of his bull**** reasoning against iRebel. There's also some doubtcasting of me on the basis I used to have a slight favorable read of Kosa, because of course townies never change their reads.
@Proph: Whenever I've seen a messenger role in a game, it's been scum/anti-town. It was a Mask in Majora, so I guess that one doesn't really truly count. It was scum in Ataghan, though, and I want to say there was one in Survival Horror on the scumteam, too. Can you provide examples of this type of role being town?
--------
Arn is not a bad mod. He would never allow players to be confirmed town by quoting a part of their PM.
I went back to Arnmod's last game, Basic #73 (Disney Villains), and it had both town and scum wincon in the OP. Considering this game's important info in the OP such as rules and stuff is pretty much copypasted from Disney's, it's pretty safe to assume he left out of it on purpose. Therefore, it's also safe to assume scum are aware of town's wincon because they've probably received it directly from the mod. It makes much more sense than Arn screwing his game over a technicality.
That said, Shockwave's claimed role oozes townishness, and it's way too consistent to be a falseclaim. Plus, it's provable. Let time judge it.
Unvote
I don't like Tan much, but it's more of a gut feeling than anything else. There's also something very very wrong with fulcrum. Gotta get a reread.
I have no qualms in lynching Rhand, as something in the back of my head tells me Rodemy's outburst was a sham because reasons. But he's at L-2 and we ought to hear his claim. So Rhand, please claim.
Marvel at Kosa's complete logic fail in regards to Arn including the win-condition. This kind of logic could only come from someone who already knows that scum are told the town win condition.
Be amazed at the way he jumps off of Shockwave, despite arguing against the wincon case, because he knows there's no way Shockwave is being lynched toDay.
Gasp as he follows up his gut scumread of Tan with a gutscum read of Tan. He couldn't just drop it, regardless of the fact that he has nothing to justify this read. Oh no, that would look scummy.
And be astounded as he says there is something "very, very wrong" with me and then decides to re-read, because he doesn't actually have anything against me, but realizes that I'll be a good target to start the next lynch train. Oh, and there's also a demand for Rhand to claim because of "something in the back of [his] head." Right.
Hey fulcrum why did you disguise your unvote of Rhand, a wagon that wouldn't go through after his claim, as pressure on me over an irrelevant question?
Then we have Kosa implying that I tried to hide my unvote of Rhand (where's the scum motivation in doing that?), in order to damage my credibility before I make a full case against him. He also calls my question irrelevant, when it's actually about the incredibly scummy mentality he posted with.
Oh ok, so let me get this straight. By not questioning my question, you, in fact, just admitted that:
1) Your pressure on me was fabricated by your necessity to unvote Rhand without gathering suspicion, since he would never been lynched with such a claim;
2) You're asking irrelevant questions.
And I'm the scum?
Which reminds me that I don't remember you ever calling/having me as scum bar one little fencesitty smear in #209. So please enlighten us on your thought process here because I'm not seeing it.
I don't get where you're trying to go with that question, since its been already answered in the very post you've quoted: since Arn is highly regarded as a good, meticulous mod, it's much more likely that scum are aware about town's wincon because they were given it directly than to consider that Arn would screw the scumteam over PM formatting issues. It's Occam.
It has occured to me that there's even a possibility of the opposite: maybe he don't want us to know scum's verbatim wincon. That would make far more sense than Arn slipping up on PM formatting issues over a clearly copypasted OP from his previous game. Thankfully, it's quite easy to confirm if I'm right about this.
Arnmod: what's the scumteam's wincon?
But regardless of it, I don't like you trying to make a fuss out of it. It's way too convenient when coupled with your unvoting of Rhand.
Unvote
Vote fulcrum
First off, no. When someone sees that the town win condition has been removed from the first post by a meticulous mod, the assumption to make is that it was done on purpose. Kosa's assumption (that it must have been given to scum) makes no sense unless he already know it to be true.
Second off all, his question was garbage meant to weaken any attack against him and he knew it.
And finally, I love the way he justified his vote for me. He couldn't just leave it as a plain OMGUS (because that would look too scummy) so he threw in an asinine comment pretending my unvote of Rhand was in any way sinister.
tl:dr
Kosa needs to die, and he needs to die toDay.
:facepalm:, I totally misread that as "you haven't done anything since, so that leads me to believe you're scum" or something along those lines. Sorry.
Disregard the bussing thing I said.
Quote from EtR »
Your case on Gan Dan was that he wasn't posting a lot. With finals/his claimed vacation/holidays/etc that doesn't really mean too much. Now your tunneling on this spot because you think your case has merit.
Strawman me more.
Who do you want to lynch and why? And why is your vote still on Kosa when you've declared him to be a town read?
@Cythare
Sounds good; I'll see to it that you give me the t/s list.
@Mod: I believe there is a Votecount error. I can't find the post where I voted Kosakosa.
I've tried to make Shockwave provide content several times and he has not responded at all. His posts post-claim have been nothing.
I know you're in like six games, but c'mon. Give us something.
@fulcrum
Please answer this. It always seems like you're trying to defang the current lynch target ("I'll whiteknight iRebel!")("I'm counterwagoning Kosakosa while a EtR lynch is happening!")
Quote from Prophylaxis »
Also why is fulcrum voting Kosakosa while she has stated her gut reaction was that she liked the case against EtR and there's been two claims already
We can wait Day 2 for Kosa if you're so inclined. We need to lynch EtR first though.
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I'm at the point where just about the only meaningful contribution I can offer to the thread is "lynch EtR" every couple of days or so. Seriously; this game is stalling because we're losing pace. Let's just lynch EtR and re-evaluate from there. gan_dan's behavior sucked, and EtR has not given me a good reason to make me think he's town. Let's lynch him already.
Please answer this. It always seems like you're trying to defang the current lynch target ("I'll whiteknight iRebel!")("I'm counterwagoning Kosakosa while a EtR lynch is happening!")
Quote from Prophylaxis »
Also why is fulcrum voting Kosakosa while she has stated her gut reaction was that she liked the case against EtR and there's been two claims already
We can wait Day 2 for Kosa if you're so inclined. We need to lynch EtR first though.
--
I'm at the point where just about the only meaningful contribution I can offer to the thread is "lynch EtR" every couple of days or so. Seriously; this game is stalling because we're losing pace. Let's just lynch EtR and re-evaluate from there. gan_dan's behavior sucked, and EtR has not given me a good reason to make me think he's town. Let's lynch him already.
1. That was not a question. 2. Kosa is scum and needs to die a lot more than EtR. Did you read my case? 3. I'm not waiting when he's perfectly lynchable right now.
And wow, "EtR has not given me a good reason to make me think he's town"? Convincing.
2. Kosa is scum and needs to die a lot more than EtR. Did you read my case?
I read your case and I'm not convinced. I have Kosakosa down as a town read due to earlier things and nothing he's said has convinced me to lower that.
Just agree with a case you've liked
Quote from fulcrum »
Actual content tomorrow. My gut reaction is that I like the case against gan_dan, but there's no way I'm switching off Rhand right now.
and we can evaluate tomorrow whether Kosakosa is scummy or not based on EtR's flip. If you haven't read the Survival Horror Spectator Chat, ZDS teaches an important lesson:
Quote from ZeDorkSlipeur »
Personally I prefer lynching scum. In many cases, lynching town will hurt more than the information from the wagon will help. If the lynchee was scummy enough, and the scum aren't abysmal at finding good arguments against scummy townies, then wagon analysis will be of very limited use. This is why active "scumhunting" is such a great tactic as scum: even if you are wrong all the time, if your attacks look valid nobody will blame you for it (in fact you will even gain town cred).
I disagree the town ever has to "talk itself in circles for three months", although I admit it is a too common phenomenon. Players in general should learn not to be picky about who they lynch (as long as there is a decent change s/he is scum then it doesn't matter if s/he's "the scummiest" or only "the second scummiest"), and should learn to shut up once they have agreed on who to lynch (starting a new wagon when the Day's lynch has been decided is the worst thing that can happen).
They should however push against any wagon on a player they believe to be town (which is significantly different from "are not 100% sure is scum").
Good: "I think Player X is scum, let's lynch him!"
Good: "I think Player Y is scummier, but the case on Player X is good and there is more support for lynching Player X. Let's lynch him!"
Good: "I think Player X is town, let's not lynch him!" Bad: "I think Player Y is scummier, so even though there is much less momentum against him, let's lynch him instead!" Bad: "I have a hunch Player X is town, even though I agree the case is good. Let's not lynch him!" Bad: "I think Player X is scum and should be lynched, but first, here's a case against Player Y."
Quote from fulcrum »
3. I'm not waiting when he's perfectly lynchable right now.
I'm not hopping on a wagon on one of my stronger town reads, and I'm definitely not hopping on a wagon with scum!EtR on it. I bet many players would share the same sentiment. Heck, EtR said that he thought Kosa was town and forgot to unvote, and Shockwave's vote was a standby from iRebel. There is no way a Kosa wagon is going to happen today. Just vote EtR.
Proph, you need to stop Garciaing me. I am waiting for Kosa's reaction to my wall. In the meantime, I am going to make posts that sound overly aggressive, because I don't want to think he's off the hook or to see a way out of my pressure. I will comment on the EtR case and it's various strengths and weaknesses after I get some discussion going with Kosa. Clear? Now stop interfering with my case before the target has even responded.
Proph, you need to stop Garciaing me. I am waiting for Kosa's reaction to my wall. In the meantime, I am going to make posts that sound overly aggressive, because I don't want to think he's off the hook or to see a way out of my pressure. I will comment on the EtR case and it's various strengths and weaknesses after I get some discussion going with Kosa. Clear? Now stop interfering with my case before the target has even responded.
Let's list our top three suspects, and focus on those who appear most commonly.
As of right now, EtR/Hans/fulcrum
Again, look at the disconnect between the comments EtR makes in his catch-up post and the order of his T/S list. Also, fulcrum starting a counterwagon on Kosa is a thing. If EtR flips town, then fulcrum looks much better and I'll start thinking more about Shockwave's lurking.
Because that was a bad question designed to smear me no matter how I answer it. It is from the same family tree as "When did you stop beating your wife?".
Be amazed at the way he jumps off of Shockwave, despite arguing against the wincon case, because he knows there's no way Shockwave is being lynched toDay.
I don't see the problem with this. Why let your vote sit around on a dead wagon and be unproductive?
Be amazed at the way he jumps off of Shockwave, despite arguing against the wincon case, because he knows there's no way Shockwave is being lynched toDay.
I don't see the problem with this. Why let your vote sit around on a dead wagon and be unproductive?
The problem here is that he didn't phrase as wanting to jump off a dead wagon, even that's quite blatantly what he was doing. Instead he agreed with the townreads on Shockwave, even though those townreads were based on a win condition argument that he spent the first part of his post attacking.
The Garcia Rule states that you should not answer a question addressed to another person before that person responds to it. In this case, it means that you don't attack this case before Kosa even responds. What you just did was offer Kosa an excuse that he can now latch onto, instead of providing his own (possibly bs) explanation.
I've been going back and forth with fulcrum for a while, but he's come up on my list. A lot of the questions/responses I've been asking/giving him have migrated from scumhunting him to trying to understand views/responses that I don't understand. I'm still not enthused about some of his earlier play, but I've been liking his later stuff. If Kosa is lynched at any point and flips town, it'll make me revisit this, since my recent dislike of Kosa is coloring some of this read.
Prophylaxis has felt moderately town, but is still in the Undecided group because I haven't agreed with some of his points - not from an opinion perspective, but because they feel like they're using things out of context or incompletely.
EtR is scummy. While I wasn't convinced by Prophylaxis's case on gan_dan, coupled with EtR's posts, I'm at this conclusion. I strongly disliked his assessment of rezombied, and some of the highlights he provided for people seemed to not match what I would expect a full spread of those players' games (namely Kosa). I don't have too much else specific at this time.
Kosakosa is also scummy. return post, where he asked others who the lynch was rather than form his own opinions or just asked what he'd missed and used language that just didn't feel town, such as "why did you avoid my snipe at me". His 316 also read off to me - he quickly jumps on fulcrum's succinct response by painting his own picture. It's been a while since I've played with Kosa, but I don't remember him taking this approach to a succinct response previously when he wants a more detailed response. The show and dance about the wincon thing also seems manufactured to me. @Kosakosa, who were you were unvoting from here?
The rest are town or are null because I haven't taken the time to review them again.
Be amazed at the way he jumps off of Shockwave, despite arguing against the wincon case, because he knows there's no way Shockwave is being lynched toDay.
I don't see the problem with this. Why let your vote sit around on a dead wagon and be unproductive?
The problem here is that he didn't phrase as wanting to jump off a dead wagon, even that's quite blatantly what he was doing. Instead he agreed with the townreads on Shockwave, even though those townreads were based on a win condition argument that he spent the first part of his post attacking.
The Garcia Rule states that you should not answer a question addressed to another person before that person responds to it. In this case, it means that you don't attack this case before Kosa even responds. What you just did was offer Kosa an excuse that he can now latch onto, instead of providing his own (possibly bs) explanation.
Wow, I shouldn't post when I'm a rush. Here's what I meant to say:
The problem here is that he didn't phrase it as wanting to jump off a dead wagon, even though that's quite blatantly what he was doing. Instead he agreed with the townreads on Shockwave, even though those townreads were based on a win condition argument that he spent the first part of his post attacking.
Be amazed at the way he jumps off of Shockwave, despite arguing against the wincon case, because he knows there's no way Shockwave is being lynched toDay.
I don't see the problem with this. Why let your vote sit around on a dead wagon and be unproductive?
The problem here is that he didn't phrase as wanting to jump off a dead wagon, even that's quite blatantly what he was doing. Instead he agreed with the townreads on Shockwave, even though those townreads were based on a win condition argument that he spent the first part of his post attacking.
This.
If I had noticed that the win cons were available to scum, I would have been a lot more vocal than Kosa was.
That said, with;
1. gan_dan's earlier case against Kosa,
2. the timing (response to pressure on EtR) and intensity of fulcrum's case against Kosa and
3. EtR's vote remaining on Kosa
I think that;
1. Kosa is town and
2. EtR and fulcrum are scumbuddies (probably with shockwave).
I think any of the folks I've played with before meta is factored in somewhat. Some more than others though. They weren't included in my list because I was just pointing to specific posts that helped from my reads.
Okay. Besides me, who is here that you haven't played with.
I have not played with you or fulcrum and I don't think I have any completed games with Shockwave.
EtR, if you have the time and ability to do so, case somebody. I can't get a good read on you while you're doing nothing but defending yourself, and I can't distinguish my suspicion of your slot between you and Dan until that happens.
I can. It'll have to wait until after work though.
Your case on Gan Dan was that he wasn't posting a lot. With finals/his claimed vacation/holidays/etc that doesn't really mean too much. Now your tunneling on this spot because you think your case has merit.
Strawman me more.
Who do you want to lynch and why? And why is your vote still on Kosa when you've declared him to be a town read?
It's not a stawman, your case is garbage. 75% of it was based on V/La and the other 25% (being generous) was based on the tone of two posts. That's not a case.
I also didn't realize that DAN (not me) had voted Kosa. Unvote KosaKosa
Claim since I'm at L-2
I'm town. Our Lady of Perpetual Chastity is my role. My ability is Paying Penance. It's a passive ability. If I'm lynched any scum JOAT's get an extra shot of an ability. If I'm the NK any town JOAT's will get an extra shot of an ability. Which ability is decided randomly.
I'm the town church and all are welcome within my walls. The nuns and priests are hear to hear and forgive the sins of any who want it only requesting that a penance be paid.
Win Condition: You win when all the mafia have been eliminated.
I need to compile peoples' suspects at some point.
Not convinced by EtR's claim. It's not testable without his death, and, speaking as someone who's now modding a game, I can't imagine willingly putting a role like that in a game just because of the sheer amount of bookkeeping it would require. It's clever, but it's very, extraordinarily swingy, and it would require Arnmod feeling exceptionally masochistic.
I don't believ that claim. Arn would never be so sloppy as to not include what would happen if EtR dies in another way than by lynch or nk.
EtR: have you or Dan asked what happens if you get vigged?
Yeah, I did. I lumped them all together as NK. But essentially if I die at night then we get the benefit. If I die during the day the Scum get the benefit.
I'm town. Our Lady of Perpetual Chastity is my role. My ability is Paying Penance. It's a passive ability. If I'm lynched any scum JOAT's get an extra shot of an ability. If I'm the NK any town JOAT's will get an extra shot of an ability. Which ability is decided randomly.
I'm the town church and all are welcome within my walls. The nuns and priests are hear to hear and forgive the sins of any who want it only requesting that a penance be paid.
Win Condition: You win when all the mafia have been eliminated.
First off, how is this in any way a RANDOM ability on death? Seems like it was added at the last minute, or he is otherwise editing his role. I mean it seems pretty clear the trigger of the ability is not random (X happens, Y happens; A happens, B happens.)
Second, doesn't this ability read more like something a neutral survivor would have? Not saying he is a survivor, but it really sounds more like what I would expect from someone claiming survivor would claim than town.
Third, as others have pointed out, the role is swingy as all hell. An extra shot in a game like this for one side or the other (Especially on ALL abilities, not just one,) can basically lock down a game for that side. Punisher roles are not out of the norm in Mafia (Since Paranoid Gun Owners and Super Saints/Hero type roles are a thing,) but this punishes too much IMO.
I'm town. Our Lady of Perpetual Chastity is my role. My ability is Paying Penance. It's a passive ability. If I'm lynched any scum JOAT's get an extra shot of an ability. If I'm the NK any town JOAT's will get an extra shot of an ability. Which ability is decided randomly.
I'm the town church and all are welcome within my walls. The nuns and priests are hear to hear and forgive the sins of any who want it only requesting that a penance be paid.
Win Condition: You win when all the mafia have been eliminated.
First off, how is this in any way a RANDOM ability on death? Seems like it was added at the last minute, or he is otherwise editing his role. I mean it seems pretty clear the trigger of the ability is not random (X happens, Y happens; A happens, B happens.)
Second, doesn't this ability read more like something a neutral survivor would have? Not saying he is a survivor, but it really sounds more like what I would expect from someone claiming survivor would claim than town.
Third, as others have pointed out, the role is swingy as all hell. An extra shot in a game like this for one side or the other (Especially on ALL abilities, not just one,) can basically lock down a game for that side. Punisher roles are not out of the norm in Mafia (Since Paranoid Gun Owners and Super Saints/Hero type roles are a thing,) but this punishes too much IMO.
Maybe I'm not explaining it correctly. Let's say some has 3 abilities like Rhand claimed. One of those three abilities is given an extra shot. Which of the three is determined randomly. It's really not as swingy as eveyone is making it. It's like a one time mass motivator for one side or the other.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
@Kosa: I dunno if I agree with your logic that the scum MUST have the town wincon due to it not being in the OP. Why would it not be possible that scum legit don't have the wincon? I have seen games where mods have left out wincons on purpose. In fact I was cleared as town in one such game, and here are the role PMs.
Because it doesn't make sense for such a concerned mod like Arn to purposefully deny town's wincon for the scumteam. Mafia is first and foremost a game of behavioral analysis, not comparison between PM quotes.
Take a look at the following exchange:
Townie: "Ok, you've roleclaimed but forgot to state your wincon."
Scum: "Oh sure this is my wincon *doesn't know town's actual wincon, botches it*"
Townie: "Huh nice try scum, but you're not town with that wincon! This is the right one *states actual town wincon*"
In the above situation, considering a game of 12 players, 2 of them would have their alignments instantly confirmed over a PM formatting issue. I can't think of any reasons as to why a good mod would purposefully promote that. If you do, please share it.
Meanwhile, I'll stay with Occam: Arnmod gave town's wincon to the scumteam, probably via falseclaim. Note that, as per Occam, I believe Shockwave's incorrect wincon quoting is due to him not checking his role PM (or his falseclaim/scumchat, if he's scum), not because he's scum and wasn't given town's wincon. If this is indeed the case, he's much more likely to be town since I'd expect scum to be extremely meticulous when claiming.
Furthermore, not only that kind of carelessness comes from town, but his role is also town-aligned and provable. So in my opinion we shouldn't be worried about him by now, despite his controversial behavior earlier in the game.
--------------
Answers to the No.1 student of Caex's School of PBPA'ing as Mafia in pink.
Oh ok, so let me get this straight. By not questioning my question, you, in fact, just admitted that:
1) Your pressure on me was fabricated by your necessity to unvote Rhand without gathering suspicion, since he would never been lynched with such a claim;
2) You're asking irrelevant questions.
And I'm the scum?
Oh cool, you're admitting that was a terrible, terrible question. That makes this a little easier.
Three real lol's in a row? No. This amusement is either faked or entirely too enthusiastic to come from a townie.
You've never played a full game with me before. You don't have any basis to know whether I am or am not easily amused.
Hint: I am. Especially when nice, funny stuff happens such as me liking my role or watching someone not named Iso reach claim range during RVS.
Then we have an opportunistic jump on Rodemy, because "odd!=scummy."
Opportunistic jump? I voted Rodemy BEFORE saying that. I'm tired of explaining that I voted him because he self-consciously backed off of a player he wanted lynched because "it was too soon for him to be at L-2". It didn't add up.
You're repeating the same bull**** arguments from EtR that I've already dealt with to bulk up your "case" against me. Typical scum trying to appear busy.
He made three posts in rvs.. and no votes whatsoever.
Except he made an effort to make a joke about being a JoAT.. or not...
and then made an effort to respond to a vote AGAINST him..
Yet no vote... no abstain...
It's odd. haven't seen that behavior in RVS before. Though i can't use the one scum game i know he was scum in because he wasn't IN rvs...
Odd != scummy.
Still haven't explained. Why is not voting in RVS scummy?
In Post 33, Kosa rips into dkings' post. After this attack, he FOS's him in order to vote for Rodemy. The weird thing here is that Rodemy doesn't appear to be that strong of a scum read. His main argument against Rodemy is that he rescinded when hans was at L-2, because there's no way a towny would not want a scumsuspect to not have to claim at the very beginning of the day from RVS votes.
It obviously wasn't a strong read. Obviously the only argument I had against Rodemy was him backing off from Hans at L-2 because that was the only relevant thing that had happened until that moment. What is your point here?
Is blatantly awful, especially considering who KK's dealing with in the former of the posts. It's too situational to be a pressure vote, and serves as a fantastic springboard into a fresh wagon.
Ok, so you're saying just because I'm voting Rodemy I'm not entitled to question people voting him? Pfft.
Complete misrep of gan_dan's point.
What was his point then? Why do you keep tackling stuff that I've already answered to?
The magenta responses in #33 are even worse, somehow. You're criticizing him for responding to the only thing worth responding to, and trying to defend not unvoting someone at L-3 less than 50 posts into a game. It's not the fact that you placed that vote, it's the fact that you make some vain attempt to (inexplicably) defend it while simultaneously mudslinging.
I'm criticizing him for making pointless statements. When I read that post the first thing it occured to me was that DKL was trying too hard to appear the scumhunting townie when in reality his words are devoid of meaningful content.
Also, his (and yours) "He didn't unvote a player at L-3 during RVS! YAAARG HE'S SCUM!" antics are borderline ridiculous.
As opposed to Kosa's "He unvoted a player at L-2 during RVS! YAAARG, HE'S SCUM. Again, we have a misrep, but this time of dkings, as dkings' statement was nowhere near that aggressive.
Toss in a FoS for good measure (Just in case the Rodemy wagon doesn't get any traction? Because it's not going to.), season to taste, simmer.
I consistently FoS people around. Get used to it and stop impersonating Guardman.
Defensive as hell reaction, with a personal attack against gan_dan.
Wait, what?
Next up, after the cases against dkings and Rodemy are stalled, we have an attack against iRebel, funnily enough, based on a misrep of iRebel's statements. Is everyone starting to see the pattern here?
Yeah, I'm seeing the pattern of you bragging about misreps without never pointing them out. If iRebel or anyone doesn't pay attention to whatever he's saying, it's MY fault for pointing it out? Oh ok, sorry for scumhunting then.
The rest of the post is a long ass defense against Tan, gan_dan and dkings. I suspect the iRebel bit was only put in so that the entire post wasn't one long defense.
Post 76 consists of followup on iRebel for the same bull**** point, along with some more overly certain statements about iRebel's alignment ("Please. Just walk your way to the gallows and save us time.").
Post 115 is a ****-ton more defense, as well as a reiteration of his bull**** reasoning against iRebel. There's also some doubtcasting of me on the basis I used to have a slight favorable read of Kosa, because of course townies never change their reads.
The bold is probably the most self-conscious statement I've laid my eyes upon since LnG claiming "Town VT" in BSG Mafia.
Random doubtcasting of Tan that is never followed up, beyond a one off sentence about a "gut-feeling."
Oh guess why is that? Maybe it is because that was solely a gut feeling and I never took the time to reread Tan and doublecheck it? OOOOOHHHHH DIVINATION
@Proph: Whenever I've seen a messenger role in a game, it's been scum/anti-town. It was a Mask in Majora, so I guess that one doesn't really truly count. It was scum in Ataghan, though, and I want to say there was one in Survival Horror on the scumteam, too. Can you provide examples of this type of role being town?
--------
Arn is not a bad mod. He would never allow players to be confirmed town by quoting a part of their PM.
I went back to Arnmod's last game, Basic #73 (Disney Villains), and it had both town and scum wincon in the OP. Considering this game's important info in the OP such as rules and stuff is pretty much copypasted from Disney's, it's pretty safe to assume he left out of it on purpose. Therefore, it's also safe to assume scum are aware of town's wincon because they've probably received it directly from the mod. It makes much more sense than Arn screwing his game over a technicality.
That said, Shockwave's claimed role oozes townishness, and it's way too consistent to be a falseclaim. Plus, it's provable. Let time judge it.
Unvote
I don't like Tan much, but it's more of a gut feeling than anything else. There's also something very very wrong with fulcrum. Gotta get a reread.
I have no qualms in lynching Rhand, as something in the back of my head tells me Rodemy's outburst was a sham because reasons. But he's at L-2 and we ought to hear his claim. So Rhand, please claim.
Marvel at Kosa's complete logic fail in regards to Arn including the win-condition. This kind of logic could only come from someone who already knows that scum are told the town win condition.
Check my response to Tanarin in the beginning of this post. Also, why do you consistently fail to provide any basis as to what you're stating?
Be amazed at the way he jumps off of Shockwave, despite arguing against the wincon case, because he knows there's no way Shockwave is being lynched toDay.
Again, responses to Tanarin. Also LOL at you accusing me of doing EXACTLY what you've done with Rhand. The difference being, I clearly state the intent and mindset behind my actions, unlike you.
Gasp as he follows up his gut scumread of Tan with a gutscum read of Tan. He couldn't just drop it, regardless of the fact that he has nothing to justify this read. Oh no, that would look scummy.
Already explained but it's ok, keep strawmanning me. Good luck trying to get myself lynched.
And be astounded as he says there is something "very, very wrong" with me and then decides to re-read, because he doesn't actually have anything against me, but realizes that I'll be a good target to start the next lynch train. Oh, and there's also a demand for Rhand to claim because of "something in the back of [his] head." Right.
Why do you keep fluffing your attacks on me? And if you're going to misrep me, please do it decently: it's plainly obvious that I've demanded a claim from Rhand simply because he was at L-2. Period.
Hey fulcrum why did you disguise your unvote of Rhand, a wagon that wouldn't go through after his claim, as pressure on me over an irrelevant question?
Then we have Kosa implying that I tried to hide my unvote of Rhand (where's the scum motivation in doing that?), in order to damage my credibility before I make a full case against him. He also calls my question irrelevant, when it's actually about the incredibly scummy mentality he posted with.
Bold: the scum motivation is avoiding to draw attention when leaving the uncc'ed doc's wagon. For instance, I had to go back and see who you were unvoting when you voted me, and I only did it because I was the one being voted, since you simply jumped on me out of nowhere. Most importantly, you've never bothered to comment on Rhand's claim.
By switching the thread's attention focus with a random, virtually naked vote, you skim through mislynch wagons easily without people ever noticing it unless they pay close attention and reread the thread.
Oh ok, so let me get this straight. By not questioning my question, you, in fact, just admitted that:
1) Your pressure on me was fabricated by your necessity to unvote Rhand without gathering suspicion, since he would never been lynched with such a claim;
2) You're asking irrelevant questions.
And I'm the scum?
Which reminds me that I don't remember you ever calling/having me as scum bar one little fencesitty smear in #209. So please enlighten us on your thought process here because I'm not seeing it.
I don't get where you're trying to go with that question, since its been already answered in the very post you've quoted: since Arn is highly regarded as a good, meticulous mod, it's much more likely that scum are aware about town's wincon because they were given it directly than to consider that Arn would screw the scumteam over PM formatting issues. It's Occam.
It has occured to me that there's even a possibility of the opposite: maybe he don't want us to know scum's verbatim wincon. That would make far more sense than Arn slipping up on PM formatting issues over a clearly copypasted OP from his previous game. Thankfully, it's quite easy to confirm if I'm right about this.
Arnmod: what's the scumteam's wincon?
But regardless of it, I don't like you trying to make a fuss out of it. It's way too convenient when coupled with your unvoting of Rhand.
Unvote
Vote fulcrum
First off, no. When someone sees that the town win condition has been removed from the first post by a meticulous mod, the assumption to make is that it was done on purpose.
Yes, it was what I've assumed. But since it makes no sense for Arn to have removed it solely to screw up the scumteam, I wondered if in reality the scumteam's wincon was secret for some reason. Since it isn't, I can't see why Arn did it, but I'm absolutely sure scum have it as I've already explained.
Kosa's assumption (that it must have been given to scum) makes no sense unless he already know it to be true.
Not repeating myself here.
Second off all, his question was garbage meant to weaken any attack against him and he knew it.
I know you hate yourself about slipping over it. Better luck next time.
And finally, I love the way he justified his vote for me. He couldn't just leave it as a plain OMGUS (because that would look too scummy) so he threw in an asinine comment pretending my unvote of Rhand was in any way sinister.
Please. I'm far from being a Mafia savant, but I know better than OMGUSing people that I know won't get me lynched. You screwed up over Rhand and got caught. Yeah you will be lynched, yeah it sucks, but you'll eventually get over it.
tl:dr
Kosa needs to die, and he needs to die toDay.
Sure
I need to sleep now. Will answer the rest tomorrow (except Cythare's @my previous vote. Stop being lazy and/or asking pointless questions. You check yourself in the votecount.)
Meanwhile, I'll stay with Occam: Arnmod gave town's wincon to the scumteam, probably via falseclaim. Note that, as per Occam, I believe Shockwave's incorrect wincon quoting is due to him not checking his role PM (or his falseclaim/scumchat, if he's scum), not because he's scum and wasn't given town's wincon. If this is indeed the case, he's much more likely to be town since I'd expect scum to be extremely meticulous when claiming.
Furthermore, not only that kind of carelessness comes from town, but his role is also town-aligned and provable. So in my opinion we shouldn't be worried about him by now, despite his controversial behavior earlier in the game.
Town, I win when all the mafia have been eliminated.
Since when is that the wrong wincon? Are you sure you are reading your wincon correctly? Because shockwave surely quoted the right wincon (Substituting I for You, which is completely expected in this case.)
Yes his role is provable and is not worth lynching does to this, but it seems the whole premise of your case/opinion/whatever you want to call it, on him is WAY off.
@Iso: Please read the thread, we are not derailing the two main wagons this late in the day unless there is a good non-RVS post reason for doing so.
@EtR: Still not buying your role despite the now apparent strengthening of the role I would also love you to answer my questions about your T/S list vs your reads that I posted a couple pages back.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Town, I win when all the mafia have been eliminated.
Since when is that the wrong wincon? Are you sure you are reading your wincon correctly? Because shockwave surely quoted the right wincon (Substituting I for You, which is completely expected in this case.)
Yes his role is provable and is not worth lynching does to this, but it seems the whole premise of your case/opinion/whatever you want to call it, on him is WAY off.
Holy crap. Disregard, I don't know how I fused together Shockwave getting supposedly townfirmed because of his wincon and Rodemy being scrutinized for failing to see what people were talking about. Too much booze during late December, and having half of the playerbase on two different games and a handful of replacements doesn't help my tired head very much.
I meant to say that Shockwave correctly claiming town's wincon doesn't make him confirmed town because Arn probably gave town's wincon to the scumteam. Which now doesn't matter anyway, since Iso is always scum. Even when he's town.
I need to sleep now. Will answer the rest tomorrow (except Cythare's @my previous vote. Stop being lazy and/or asking pointless questions. You check yourself in the votecount.)
Are you still on cythare because of their vote on hansanator?
Okay. Besides me, who is here that you haven't played with.
No, the suspect thing about Cythare's vote was her position on the RVS wagon. I haven't seen anything else from her in terms of content that puts her on my radar.
All of my focus and free time must be directed towards real life matters, but I shall catch up this Saturday.
Previous Mafia Experience:
Mafia aligned: 2/0 -100%
Town aligned: 4/3 - 57%
1) I'm not very aware of ganderin_dan's meta, due to having never played with him except in Cyberspace Mafia (where he replaced in shortly before I was forcibly replaced). Aside from that, is aggression something that you associate with scum!gan_dan? Ultimately, your case on gan_dan doesn't sell me on his slot being scum due to unfamiliarity with his style, but seems like a legitimate starting point, and EtR's play seems scummy to me so far. The one exception that I find notable, though, is his reaction to my third vote compared to dkingsland (which I only realized just now upon reviewing both your case on gan_dan and your review of me). I doubt that the 2 players that would go after me for a 3rd RVS vote would both be scum, and dkings was much more level-headed about it. gan_dan's looked like an attempt to make me look worse by capitalizing on something pointed out by another player.
2) I thought I commented on this, but apparently didn't (only had the responding question re:fulcrum). I asked you about your feelings on fulcrum because one of your points against me was the succinctness of my RVS vote, which was about as succinct as fulcrum's. I was curious to see if that was something you'd at least address in your response.
I didn't like your "I guess Cythare can interpret this as smearing", but apparently this is something that I've just managed to miss during my career here. He was the first one to bring it up, so it just looked to me like an attempt to make me look bad by referencing something I'd never encountered before. Knowing that to be a thing now, though, I can get where everyone is coming from, though.
To answer your question that came with it: dkings explanation made sense, so no, I would not consider it smearing. I haven't gone back to review his posts in a while, but I did leave my vote on him for a while because I kept thinking he was still scummy.
I didn't shift my vote to fulcrum because I wanted to shift my vote to Shockwave and didn't want to start a counterwagon when I felt that the active wagon was a scummy player. He's still on the scummy end of the spectrum for me (although his later responses have been better), but despite the extended back and forth, he's never been my top scum read, so hasn't warranted my vote.
You "haven't gotten much from me", but I have done things other than quotewar with fulcrum. I'll provide a T/S list sometime soonish after I review and gather my thoughts.
In the meantime, unvote because Rhand hasn't been CCed.
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Spider-Man Mafia 3 (Off-Site: NGA)
Metroid Mafia (Off-Site: Mafia Universe)
Your predecessor voted for Kosakosa and you never unvoted.
You were seriously thinking that you did vote Kosa but forgot it?
Hey DKL why did you avoid my snipe at you?
Hey fulcrum why did you disguise your unvote of Rhand, a wagon that wouldn't go through after his claim, as pressure on me over an irrelevant question?
It's been almost 3 weeks, how'd that reread of fulcrum go?
How do you feel about Rhand right now?
Expand this, please.
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EtR, if you have the time and ability to do so, case somebody. I can't get a good read on you while you're doing nothing but defending yourself, and I can't distinguish my suspicion of your slot between you and Dan until that happens.
-----
I like Tanarin more over these last few pages.
-----
We're still pretty stalled, and I think that we need some order to frame the discussion. I feel like the conversation is being deftly manipulated to keep us running in circles.
Let's list our top three suspects, and focus on those who appear most commonly.
Mine, in no order other than convenience:
EtR/Dan: Proph's points were strong, and I had a meta read. EtR hasn't impressed thusfar, doing nothing but defense since replacing in (admittedly, into a bad situation).
Shockwave/rebel: Rebel's play earlier still comes off as scummy-as-hell to me; Shockwave has spent most of the game lately floating by and accomplishing little.
Fulcrum: Has produced content, but it's mostly defenses of various people and is fairly reflexive -- rarely proactive. This is my first time playing with her, though, and as such I'm not sure what to expect. In a metaless void, though, I haven't liked her posts overall -- and feel like she is the one guiding conversation. Her "white knight" post, for example, locked down discussion for a good week.
Could you define "locked down discussion" for me?
That's because I believe this day has gone on long enough. I want to lynch EtR and evaluate based on his flip. Notice that he has Kosa as leaning town yet never unvotes him.
EtR/hans/shock?
Also why is fulcrum voting Kosakosa while she has stated her gut reaction was that she liked the case against EtR and there's been two claims already
I already exained why.
Oh ok, so let me get this straight. By not questioning my question, you, in fact, just admitted that:
1) Your pressure on me was fabricated by your necessity to unvote Rhand without gathering suspicion, since he would never been lynched with such a claim;
2) You're asking irrelevant questions.
And I'm the scum?
Which reminds me that I don't remember you ever calling/having me as scum bar one little fencesitty smear in #209. So please enlighten us on your thought process here because I'm not seeing it.
I don't get where you're trying to go with that question, since its been already answered in the very post you've quoted: since Arn is highly regarded as a good, meticulous mod, it's much more likely that scum are aware about town's wincon because they were given it directly than to consider that Arn would screw the scumteam over PM formatting issues. It's Occam.
It has occured to me that there's even a possibility of the opposite: maybe he don't want us to know scum's verbatim wincon. That would make far more sense than Arn slipping up on PM formatting issues over a clearly copypasted OP from his previous game. Thankfully, it's quite easy to confirm if I'm right about this.
Arnmod: what's the scumteam's wincon?
But regardless of it, I don't like you trying to make a fuss out of it. It's way too convenient when coupled with your unvoting of Rhand.
Unvote
Vote fulcrum
Never did it, I'm lazy beyond solution during vacations, I fear. Although considering that last exchange, I'm soon(tm) making it a priority.
Rhand? You mean the un-CC'ed doc? He's totally my BFF. Like, Rhand -> <- Me
EtR I have already explained.
Fulcrum: Mainly the white knight post that really served no purpose in furthering the progress of the game. For me that seems like something scum would do to try and earn town points, especially given it was about a player that already replaced out. Kosa also raises a good point with fulcrum's vote on Kosa. While the question is not irrelevant, it is hardly worth a vote over it ATM.
rezombied: Haven't like how he has been pretty much floating through the game to this point. He has been saying some stuff, agreeing with people, and pretty much that's it. He has been a part of most of the major wagons in the game, but only after they have picked up steam for the most part (2nd on dking, 5th on shockwave, 4th on rodemy/rhand, and currently not voting on either Kosa or EtR, despite having leanings on both.)
@Kosa: I dunno if I agree with your logic that the scum MUST have the town wincon due to it not being in the OP. Why would it not be possible that scum legit don't have the wincon? I have seen games where mods have left out wincons on purpose. In fact I was cleared as town in one such game, and here are the role PMs.
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"Mafia Win: You win when the Mafia equal or outnumber the Town."
Oh cool, you're admitting that was a terrible, terrible question. That makes this a little easier.
Three real lol's in a row? No. This amusement is either faked or entirely too enthusiastic to come from a townie.
Then we have an opportunistic jump on Rodemy, because "odd!=scummy."
In Post 33, Kosa rips into dkings' post. After this attack, he FOS's him in order to vote for Rodemy. The weird thing here is that Rodemy doesn't appear to be that strong of a scum read. His main argument against Rodemy is that he rescinded when hans was at L-2, because there's no way a towny would not want a scumsuspect to not have to claim at the very beginning of the day from RVS votes. The third question to Rodemy:
is blatantly biased.
The pressure on Rodemy seems more like something Kosa feels he has to follow through on in order to look town, instead of genuine scumhunting.
Complete misrep of gan_dan's point.
As opposed to Kosa's "He unvoted a player at L-2 during RVS! YAAARG, HE'S SCUM. Again, we have a misrep, but this time of dkings, as dkings' statement was nowhere near that aggressive.
Defensive as hell reaction, with a personal attack against gan_dan.
Next up, after the cases against dkings and Rodemy are stalled, we have an attack against iRebel, funnily enough, based on a misrep of iRebel's statements. Is everyone starting to see the pattern here?
The rest of the post is a long ass defense against Tan, gan_dan and dkings. I suspect the iRebel bit was only put in so that the entire post wasn't one long defense.
Post 76 consists of followup on iRebel for the same bull**** point, along with some more overly certain statements about iRebel's alignment ("Please. Just walk your way to the gallows and save us time.").
Post 115 is a ****-ton more defense, as well as a reiteration of his bull**** reasoning against iRebel. There's also some doubtcasting of me on the basis I used to have a slight favorable read of Kosa, because of course townies never change their reads.
Post 118:
Random doubtcasting of Tan that is never followed up, beyond a one off sentence about a "gut-feeling."
Post 197 is actually beautiful:
Marvel at Kosa's complete logic fail in regards to Arn including the win-condition. This kind of logic could only come from someone who already knows that scum are told the town win condition.
Be amazed at the way he jumps off of Shockwave, despite arguing against the wincon case, because he knows there's no way Shockwave is being lynched toDay.
Gasp as he follows up his gut scumread of Tan with a gutscum read of Tan. He couldn't just drop it, regardless of the fact that he has nothing to justify this read. Oh no, that would look scummy.
And be astounded as he says there is something "very, very wrong" with me and then decides to re-read, because he doesn't actually have anything against me, but realizes that I'll be a good target to start the next lynch train. Oh, and there's also a demand for Rhand to claim because of "something in the back of [his] head." Right.
Then we have Kosa implying that I tried to hide my unvote of Rhand (where's the scum motivation in doing that?), in order to damage my credibility before I make a full case against him. He also calls my question irrelevant, when it's actually about the incredibly scummy mentality he posted with.
First off, no. When someone sees that the town win condition has been removed from the first post by a meticulous mod, the assumption to make is that it was done on purpose. Kosa's assumption (that it must have been given to scum) makes no sense unless he already know it to be true.
Second off all, his question was garbage meant to weaken any attack against him and he knew it.
And finally, I love the way he justified his vote for me. He couldn't just leave it as a plain OMGUS (because that would look too scummy) so he threw in an asinine comment pretending my unvote of Rhand was in any way sinister.
tl:dr
Kosa needs to die, and he needs to die toDay.
:facepalm:, I totally misread that as "you haven't done anything since, so that leads me to believe you're scum" or something along those lines. Sorry.
Disregard the bussing thing I said.
Strawman me more.
Who do you want to lynch and why? And why is your vote still on Kosa when you've declared him to be a town read?
@Cythare
Sounds good; I'll see to it that you give me the t/s list.
I've tried to make Shockwave provide content several times and he has not responded at all. His posts post-claim have been nothing.
I know you're in like six games, but c'mon. Give us something.
@fulcrum
Please answer this. It always seems like you're trying to defang the current lynch target ("I'll whiteknight iRebel!")("I'm counterwagoning Kosakosa while a EtR lynch is happening!")
We can wait Day 2 for Kosa if you're so inclined. We need to lynch EtR first though.
--
I'm at the point where just about the only meaningful contribution I can offer to the thread is "lynch EtR" every couple of days or so. Seriously; this game is stalling because we're losing pace. Let's just lynch EtR and re-evaluate from there. gan_dan's behavior sucked, and EtR has not given me a good reason to make me think he's town. Let's lynch him already.
Kosakosa (3): EtR; Shockwave07; fulcrum
EtR (4): Prophylaxis; Rhand; Tanarin, dkingsland967
Not Voting (4): Hansanator; Arianrhod; Kosakosa; Rezombied
--
People who aren't named Prophylaxis, Rhand, Tanarin, or dkingsland need to tell us why they aren't voting EtR.
1. That was not a question. 2. Kosa is scum and needs to die a lot more than EtR. Did you read my case? 3. I'm not waiting when he's perfectly lynchable right now.
And wow, "EtR has not given me a good reason to make me think he's town"? Convincing.
I read your case and I'm not convinced. I have Kosakosa down as a town read due to earlier things and nothing he's said has convinced me to lower that.
Just agree with a case you've liked
and we can evaluate tomorrow whether Kosakosa is scummy or not based on EtR's flip. If you haven't read the Survival Horror Spectator Chat, ZDS teaches an important lesson:
I'm not hopping on a wagon on one of my stronger town reads, and I'm definitely not hopping on a wagon with scum!EtR on it. I bet many players would share the same sentiment. Heck, EtR said that he thought Kosa was town and forgot to unvote, and Shockwave's vote was a standby from iRebel. There is no way a Kosa wagon is going to happen today. Just vote EtR.
(I'm definitely getting Cyan vibes)
Fair enough.
I will wait for Kosa to respond to your points.
As of right now, EtR/Hans/fulcrum
Again, look at the disconnect between the comments EtR makes in his catch-up post and the order of his T/S list. Also, fulcrum starting a counterwagon on Kosa is a thing. If EtR flips town, then fulcrum looks much better and I'll start thinking more about Shockwave's lurking.
Because that was a bad question designed to smear me no matter how I answer it. It is from the same family tree as "When did you stop beating your wife?".
What does this tell us regarding the completed game you brought up before?
I don't see the problem with this. Why let your vote sit around on a dead wagon and be unproductive?
Aside:
What does this mean?
The problem here is that he didn't phrase as wanting to jump off a dead wagon, even that's quite blatantly what he was doing. Instead he agreed with the townreads on Shockwave, even though those townreads were based on a win condition argument that he spent the first part of his post attacking.
The Garcia Rule states that you should not answer a question addressed to another person before that person responds to it. In this case, it means that you don't attack this case before Kosa even responds. What you just did was offer Kosa an excuse that he can now latch onto, instead of providing his own (possibly bs) explanation.
Kosa, what are your reads?
---------
Prophylaxis, as promised
Town/Leaning Town:
Rhand
rezombied
Arianrhod
dkingsland967
Tanarin
Null/Unsure:
Shockwave07
hansanator
fulcrum
Prophylaxis
Scum/Leaning Scum:
Kosakosa
EtR
I've been going back and forth with fulcrum for a while, but he's come up on my list. A lot of the questions/responses I've been asking/giving him have migrated from scumhunting him to trying to understand views/responses that I don't understand. I'm still not enthused about some of his earlier play, but I've been liking his later stuff. If Kosa is lynched at any point and flips town, it'll make me revisit this, since my recent dislike of Kosa is coloring some of this read.
Prophylaxis has felt moderately town, but is still in the Undecided group because I haven't agreed with some of his points - not from an opinion perspective, but because they feel like they're using things out of context or incompletely.
EtR is scummy. While I wasn't convinced by Prophylaxis's case on gan_dan, coupled with EtR's posts, I'm at this conclusion. I strongly disliked his assessment of rezombied, and some of the highlights he provided for people seemed to not match what I would expect a full spread of those players' games (namely Kosa). I don't have too much else specific at this time.
Kosakosa is also scummy. return post, where he asked others who the lynch was rather than form his own opinions or just asked what he'd missed and used language that just didn't feel town, such as "why did you avoid my snipe at me". His 316 also read off to me - he quickly jumps on fulcrum's succinct response by painting his own picture. It's been a while since I've played with Kosa, but I don't remember him taking this approach to a succinct response previously when he wants a more detailed response. The show and dance about the wincon thing also seems manufactured to me. @Kosakosa, who were you were unvoting from here?
The rest are town or are null because I haven't taken the time to review them again.
Vote Kosakosa
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Wow, I shouldn't post when I'm a rush. Here's what I meant to say:
The problem here is that he didn't phrase it as wanting to jump off a dead wagon, even though that's quite blatantly what he was doing. Instead he agreed with the townreads on Shockwave, even though those townreads were based on a win condition argument that he spent the first part of his post attacking.
I went and checked and Disney Villains Mafia (arns last game), has the same win cons with them listed in the OP.
This.
If I had noticed that the win cons were available to scum, I would have been a lot more vocal than Kosa was.
That said, with;
1. gan_dan's earlier case against Kosa,
2. the timing (response to pressure on EtR) and intensity of fulcrum's case against Kosa and
3. EtR's vote remaining on Kosa
I think that;
1. Kosa is town and
2. EtR and fulcrum are scumbuddies (probably with shockwave).
I'll go ahead and :
Vote EtR
Kosakosa (4): EtR; Shockwave07; fulcrum; Cythare
EtR (5): Prophylaxis; Rhand; Tanarin; dkingsland967; Rezombied
Fulcrum (1): Kosakosa
Not Voting (2): Hansanator; Arianrhod
With 12 alive, it's 7 to lynch!
I have not played with you or fulcrum and I don't think I have any completed games with Shockwave.
I can. It'll have to wait until after work though.
It's not a stawman, your case is garbage. 75% of it was based on V/La and the other 25% (being generous) was based on the tone of two posts. That's not a case.
I also didn't realize that DAN (not me) had voted Kosa. Unvote KosaKosa
Claim since I'm at L-2
I'm town. Our Lady of Perpetual Chastity is my role. My ability is Paying Penance. It's a passive ability. If I'm lynched any scum JOAT's get an extra shot of an ability. If I'm the NK any town JOAT's will get an extra shot of an ability. Which ability is decided randomly.
I'm the town church and all are welcome within my walls. The nuns and priests are hear to hear and forgive the sins of any who want it only requesting that a penance be paid.
Win Condition: You win when all the mafia have been eliminated.
Not convinced by EtR's claim. It's not testable without his death, and, speaking as someone who's now modding a game, I can't imagine willingly putting a role like that in a game just because of the sheer amount of bookkeeping it would require. It's clever, but it's very, extraordinarily swingy, and it would require Arnmod feeling exceptionally masochistic.
EtR: have you or Dan asked what happens if you get vigged?
Yeah, I did. I lumped them all together as NK. But essentially if I die at night then we get the benefit. If I die during the day the Scum get the benefit.
First off, how is this in any way a RANDOM ability on death? Seems like it was added at the last minute, or he is otherwise editing his role. I mean it seems pretty clear the trigger of the ability is not random (X happens, Y happens; A happens, B happens.)
Second, doesn't this ability read more like something a neutral survivor would have? Not saying he is a survivor, but it really sounds more like what I would expect from someone claiming survivor would claim than town.
Third, as others have pointed out, the role is swingy as all hell. An extra shot in a game like this for one side or the other (Especially on ALL abilities, not just one,) can basically lock down a game for that side. Punisher roles are not out of the norm in Mafia (Since Paranoid Gun Owners and Super Saints/Hero type roles are a thing,) but this punishes too much IMO.
Come join us in the MTGSalvation chat ||| My trade thread. ||| My Personal Modern Blog: The Fetchlands
Maybe I'm not explaining it correctly. Let's say some has 3 abilities like Rhand claimed. One of those three abilities is given an extra shot. Which of the three is determined randomly. It's really not as swingy as eveyone is making it. It's like a one time mass motivator for one side or the other.
And yes this role does make sense for a survivor.
This is scum.
Kill it with fire.
Unvote(?), Vote dkingsland
Let's do this.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
For not providing any game-related content for three weeks, Shockwave07 has been forcibly replaced.
Iso has replaced Shockwave07. Thanks Iso!
Now let's kill dkings.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
What RVS tell is being demonstrated there?
What do you think of EtR?
Hi!
It's a scum post through and through. It's exactly what I did in the opening of Crosstown #2! Look:
vs.
It's a completely fake post. It probably means Kosa is also dkings's scumbuddy, but for now, LYNCH DKINGS NO BRAKES ETC.
As for EtR, he didn't post on the first page, so I have no opinion on him.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
NO BRAKES
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Because it doesn't make sense for such a concerned mod like Arn to purposefully deny town's wincon for the scumteam. Mafia is first and foremost a game of behavioral analysis, not comparison between PM quotes.
Take a look at the following exchange:
Townie: "Ok, you've roleclaimed but forgot to state your wincon."
Scum: "Oh sure this is my wincon *doesn't know town's actual wincon, botches it*"
Townie: "Huh nice try scum, but you're not town with that wincon! This is the right one *states actual town wincon*"
In the above situation, considering a game of 12 players, 2 of them would have their alignments instantly confirmed over a PM formatting issue. I can't think of any reasons as to why a good mod would purposefully promote that. If you do, please share it.
Meanwhile, I'll stay with Occam: Arnmod gave town's wincon to the scumteam, probably via falseclaim. Note that, as per Occam, I believe Shockwave's incorrect wincon quoting is due to him not checking his role PM (or his falseclaim/scumchat, if he's scum), not because he's scum and wasn't given town's wincon. If this is indeed the case, he's much more likely to be town since I'd expect scum to be extremely meticulous when claiming.
Furthermore, not only that kind of carelessness comes from town, but his role is also town-aligned and provable. So in my opinion we shouldn't be worried about him by now, despite his controversial behavior earlier in the game.
--------------
Answers to the No.1 student of Caex's School of PBPA'ing as Mafia in pink.
I need to sleep now. Will answer the rest tomorrow (except Cythare's @my previous vote. Stop being lazy and/or asking pointless questions. You check yourself in the votecount.)
Meanwhile please vote fulcrum kthx.
Umm... WHAT?! Are you in the same game I am?
Since when is that the wrong wincon? Are you sure you are reading your wincon correctly? Because shockwave surely quoted the right wincon (Substituting I for You, which is completely expected in this case.)
Yes his role is provable and is not worth lynching does to this, but it seems the whole premise of your case/opinion/whatever you want to call it, on him is WAY off.
@Iso: Please read the thread, we are not derailing the two main wagons this late in the day unless there is a good non-RVS post reason for doing so.
@EtR: Still not buying your role despite the now apparent strengthening of the role I would also love you to answer my questions about your T/S list vs your reads that I posted a couple pages back.
Come join us in the MTGSalvation chat ||| My trade thread. ||| My Personal Modern Blog: The Fetchlands
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Holy crap. Disregard, I don't know how I fused together Shockwave getting supposedly townfirmed because of his wincon and Rodemy being scrutinized for failing to see what people were talking about. Too much booze during late December, and having half of the playerbase on two different games and a handful of replacements doesn't help my tired head very much.
I meant to say that Shockwave correctly claiming town's wincon doesn't make him confirmed town because Arn probably gave town's wincon to the scumteam. Which now doesn't matter anyway, since Iso is always scum. Even when he's town.
No.
It is neither lazy or pointless. Answer it.
Draft my cube! (630 cards)