MTG Salvation

Quote from CorruptDictator

Toying around with the list I am looking to buy and was wondering if Vapor Snag would have any place in a Delver deck?

It does if you have the proper build. A Pyromancer build really likes Vapor Snag. Check out the link in my sig for a decent build that includes those two.

Am I the only one who thinks that we should have two seperate threads, one for the Young Pyromancer version and one for the Spellstutter version?

Quote from Goldmane77

Am I the only one who thinks that we should have two seperate threads, one for the Young Pyromancer version and one for the Spellstutter version?

I'm still for combining the Spellstutter version with the U(x) Faeries thread.

Blue combo and UWR Wafo-Tapa. UWR can't cast Revelation as long as you have UUR open.

Our match against combo is pretty good, to play counterflux we have to replace the Negates in the SB, and Negate can play wider range of decks then counterflux.


Since my meta is full of Trons, I have to be able to counter turn 3 wurmcoil and tron, so 2 mana counter is much more value for me.

Quote from Rufino7L

Our match against combo is pretty good, to play counterflux we have to replace the Negates in the SB, and Negate can play wider range of decks then counterflux.


Since my meta is full of Trons, I have to be able to counter turn 3 wurmcoil and tron, so 2 mana counter is much more value for me.

Negate can't counter Wurmcoil Engine.

Also, that play is one more reason I run Vapor Snag.

Quote from Valdarith

Negate can't counter Wurmcoil Engine.

Also, that play is one more reason I run Vapor Snag.

SSS version or Pyro version you are running vapor snag?

I have played with Snag on the SSS version but alot of times it was just a very bad top deck that I decided to cut it off.

The Pyro version in my sig. I love Snag in the list because I can protect my Pyromancer while getting value, bounce opposing creatures, and rebuy Snapcasters. It's been huge game for me in my admittedly limited experience.

Quote from Mastodon

Is there are a reason why Deprive isn't being discussed? It seems like it would fit a deck like this better than some other counterspells.

I like deprive as a 2-of in my pyromancer version.
Since it's a hard counter it can counter a turn 4 bolt or path, and it's good to just deal with some cards since you will eventually run out of remands. Sometimes it can act like a kor skyfisher if they do something on your upkeep, and it costs essentially one, not a reason to consider it, but it does happen.
Deprive is awesome, but not as a 4-of.

Tell me if this is terrible, or just sounds like fun. Land Destruction Delver?

DOLZero's DeckMagic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards
Critters: 8 4 Delver of Secrets 4 Snapcaster Mage Spells: 26 4 Stone Rain 4 Molten Rain 4 Cryptic Command 4 Serum Visions 4 Lightning Bolt 4 Electrolyze 2 Boomerang	Enchantments: 4 4 Spreading Seas Land: 22 4 Scalding Tarn 2 Misty Rainforest 4 Steam Vents 1 Cascade Bluffs 1 Sulfur Falls 9 Island 1 Mountain	Sideboard: 3 Vedalken Shackles 2 Vendilion Clique 3 Blood Moon 2 Hurkyl's Recall 2 Hibernation 3 Combust

Four Cryptics with 22 lands? Plus the LD increases how greedy your manabase is for red, which is really had with all those basic islands. I might even be tempted to play a few Arid Mesas with the red sources you'll need. Otherwise the land destruction might not be worth adding.

Quote from DOLZero

Tell me if this is terrible, or just sounds like fun. Land Destruction Delver?

fyawm's DeckMagic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards
Critters: 8 4 Delver of Secrets 4 Snapcaster Mage Spells: 26 4 Stone Rain 4 Molten Rain 4 Cryptic Command 4 Serum Visions 4 Lightning Bolt 4 Electrolyze 2 Boomerang	Enchantments: 4 4 Spreading Seas Land: 22 4 Scalding Tarn 2 Misty Rainforest 4 Steam Vents 1 Cascade Bluffs 1 Sulfur Falls 9 Island 1 Mountain	Sideboard: 3 Vedalken Shackles 2 Vendilion Clique 3 Blood Moon 2 Hurkyl's Recall 2 Hibernation 3 Combust

Awful.

How many people are running swords in their 75, or even 60?

EDIT: Also, does anyone have some insights into why UR delver is vastly more popular than RUg with Tarmogoyf? It is because the third colour makes the deck too slow?

Quote from Loocid

How many people are running swords in their 75, or even 60?

EDIT: Also, does anyone have some insights into why UR delver is vastly more popular than RUg with Tarmogoyf? It is because the third colour makes the deck too slow?

Playing light and shadow in the main and fire and ice in the board.

Quote from Loocid

EDIT: Also, does anyone have some insights into why UR delver is vastly more popular than RUg with Tarmogoyf? It is because the third colour makes the deck too slow?

I'm not running swords. Shackles already forces people to bring in their ancient grudges, id rather not fuel those more than I have to.

I think the three color version is vastly superior. You get to end the debate on pyro vs SSS and just run the obviously superior card, Tarmogoyf. I'm assuming the price tag on him with zero other incentive (outside the SB) makes people stick to UR.

Green gives you Ancient Grudge, Firespout (awesome with clique/delver), Thrun, and my personal favorite Obstinate Baloth

I really like how people in this thread make good arguments. Really, have you ever played the SSS version or are you just brainfarting in this thread because you can?

Quite similiar how you discount the RUG version without ANY real argument (why is it to slow?). I mean both versions (SSS and RUG) placed T16 in GP's and just because Pyromancer went T4 doesn't automatically mean it's better.

Is splashing white for Path to Exile overkill? Seems good against 'Goyf and Wurmcoil Engine.

Not really necessary. 'Goyf can be annoying but you can always bring in Shattering Blow from the sideboard to take care of a resolved Wurmcoil Engine.

But at the risk of sounding like a broken record, things like Wurmcoil Engine are another reason I love running Vapor Snag.

Quote from crni

This deck runs about 26 1cmc and 12 2 cmc spells and because of that it is really fast. Maybe I expressed wrong with saying green is slow but with that I thought on some RUG versions which runs Cryptic Commands, Baloths and so on in 21 land deck, thats why I think thats slow compared to UR Pyromancer because you can Remand or Spell Pierce most of their plays and if you sticked Young Pyro it can be already GG.

Why can't you run a RUG version with 20 lands, 2 cliques as your 3 drops and the rest 1-2 mana? Your only splashing green for goyf and fb for sb grudges.

Full disclosure: I'm running a RUG Spellstutter build with 4 SSS, 2 Clique, 4 Goyf, and 4 Snapcaster. That said, I'd like to address a few of the comments in this thread.

Quote from chags

I also am of the opinion that a large percentage of the time spellstutter really doesn't do anything. The fact that it has flash does not make up for the fact that it is a 1/1, you aren't going to be able to put up pressure in lots of situations and it is more then likely only ever countering a 1 cmc spell. Young pyro eats lots of removal but when it doesnt it gets ridiculous pretty fast. As other people have pointed out I have to agree it is definitely better against GBx then SSS.

Spellstutter Sprite is insane if you play it correctly. Obviously it's not great against some decks, but as Hoogland said, almost every strategy in Modern relies on its one-drops surviving. It also helps balance the counter suite, since it covers ground that Mana Leak and Remand (which deal more effectively with expensive spells) can't really touch after a few turns. I run 4 of each; not sure we can afford to run narrow counterspells like Spell Snare in this type of tempo deck, as much as I love them. The exception is the Pyromancer build, which should definitely main a couple Spell Pierce.

I agree that the 1/1 body isn't great. The benefit of the Fae version is that you can play so reactively that as you counter things, your board presence grows. One Spellstutter quickly gets joined by a Snapcaster Mage and by the time a Clique shows up you have a very, very fast clock, especially considering the reach afforded by Lightning Bolt and the additional beats you get from Mutavault. I also run artifacts to boost the Sprites; one Sword of Light and Shadow, one Sword of Fire and Ice, and one Bident of Thassa. The latter is really a sleeper and I wouldn't run more than one (Legendary and the mana cost) but tapping out for that and coming in with two+ creatures usually seals the deal. This deck really, really benefits from that kind of card advantage. Bident is also great for pumping Goyf if they get rid of it, but I board out all three when expecting Ancient Grudge.

Quote from cromonolith

Blood Moon.

Also, I think all of the testing that's been done has shown the Spellstutter Sprite version is better than the Young Pyromancer version.

When I was on RUG Delver, I ran a 2-2 Spreading Seas/Blood Moon split in the board. RUG can very easily support Blood Moon, and it's probably the 3-color combination that can do so most effectively. We have off-color fetch lands and primarily want Islands anyway. Obviously I'm not running them anymore since they don't work with Mutavault, but if you're not on Fae, Moon is way too good in this format to pass up.

Quote from immapwner

Abrupt decay kills all of our threats, no questions asked, having something else they have to answer with decay or pulse is great.
It's not super difficult to take control of goyfs, but i'll admit that 5+ power is pretty difficult, we do have lavamancer to eat up the yards though. Shackles also takes deathrite, bob, unpumped oozes, huntmasters, Olivia voldaren, and man lands.
I don't like threads because it's not great against any other deck but jund.
Imagine against merfolk or hatebears, you can take their creatures and just run them into each other, shackles quickly becomes a 2-1 or even a 4-1 or better. In my testing it's almost impossible for any creature-based deck, aside form jund, to actually beat a resolved shackles. Shackles is also good against uwr control because they can't win with it on the battlefield, and they have no way to remove it. Even if you just take a snapcaster (obviously you don't do this if they can use colonnade) you can kill them with it, and they have to answer it eventually. Shackles has been my best backup plan so far in a ton of matchups.

Decay is definitely great against us. I don't run Shackles but I do run Swords, and getting it on a Goyf sucks. I recommend you guys try one or two Swerve in the sideboard; it's absolutely bonkers against BGx decks. Casting Swerve on Abrupt Decay, Path to Exile and even Lightning Bolt provides an enormous tempo swing. It can even win you counter wars.

Quote from Ashton Kutcher

Full disclosure: I'm running a RUG Spellstutter build with 4 SSS, 2 Clique, 4 Goyf, and 4 Snapcaster. That said, I'd like to address a few of the comments in this thread.

Excellent post. SSS is the way to go. I'm still not convinced about RUG (and it's not just because I don't own goyfs), but it's worth exploring.

Care to show us your list? Do you play any green spells other than goyf?

Quote from cromonolith

Excellent post. SSS is the way to go. I'm still not convinced about RUG (and it's not just because I don't own goyfs), but it's worth exploring.

Care to show us your list? Do you play any green spells other than goyf?

If SSS was the way to go it would be more than 0% of the current MTGO meta and it would have more paper results than Pyromancer Delver. Since neither of these things are true, that it indicates that it is worse.

Quote from Valanarch

If SSS was the way to go it would be more than 0% of the current MTGO meta and it would have more paper results than Pyromancer Delver. Since neither of these things are true, that it indicates that it is worse.

I agree with your logic, a few results versus none for a deck that very few people play is conclusive.

Playing cards on your own turn is for suckers anyway.

EDIT: Just so I can say something not snarky, a search on mtgtop8 reveals more decks that play both SSS and Delver than decks that play both YP and Delver, so there's that.

In any case, as many have said they're two different decks. I don't like playing terrible cards like Serum Visions, and I like countering things, so I play the SSS version. I'm not trying to convince you to play a different deck, I was just pleased to see some well thought out posts from frankly anyone in this thread, and it was nice that they came to the same conclusion as myself.

Quote from cromonolith

I agree with your logic, a few results versus none for a deck that very few people play is conclusive.

Playing cards on your own turn is for suckers anyway.

EDIT: Just so I can say something not snarky, a search on mtgtop8 reveals more decks that play both SSS and Delver than decks that play both YP and Delver, so there's that.

Wait, top 4 of a Grand Prix and a 4.52% share of the Modern MTGO meta are no results?

Sources: http://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetype/8973
http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/eventcoverage/gppra14/welcome

Quote from Valanarch

Wait, top 4 of a Grand Prix and a 4.52% share of the Modern MTGO meta are no results?

Sources: http://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetype/8973
http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/eventcoverage/gppra14/welcome

No, those are the few results I mentioned.

In any case, I'm sure I don't have to explain to you that the GP Top 4 isn't evidence that the YP deck is better. How many people have competed in GPs with SSS decks and not made top 8? For all I know the average finish of SSS deck is significantly higher. We have no evidence, because the deck isn't played much. The YP version is being played more on MODO at the moment, meaning we don't have good statistics, not that it's better.