You know, CC is my favorite player so far this game. I don't know why. I just like his posts and his reasoning for things.
I don't like my vote on Cyan right now, so I'll just go ahead and Unvote, Vote Absolutionis. I don't like his last couple posts. The more pressure is put on him, the worse his defense gets. I hope he actually makes a good one when he is near-lynch.
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Sorry, my fault for not remembering correctly exactly what Puzzle said, but others have, by themselves said that "Just the name is useless". At the time I was under the impression that Puzzle was asking for a claim, and others saying "Just name is useless" (or along those lines) were doing the same. I stand corrected.
Quote from Abandon Hope »
Defended fishing from MD based on the logic that it probably wouldn't have worked. You agree that this is suspicous, correct?
I think you've slightly misrepresented what I said.
Quote from mystery meat of doom »
I really don't see MD's fishing as that bad in that case. Puzzle also did call out for an ability claim, as did others IIRC. He's saying the same thing, except he throws out a role too. I doubt any real doc is going to come out and say "He can't be doc, I'm doc!".
The main part of my defense of MD was that Puzzle and others said basically the same (which now I realize they didn't) and the second part was tacked on, as a small added defense, since no averagely-experienced player would say something like this, or respond to it.
That said, it looks slightly worse for MD. I still believe that it's not as bad as everyone makes it out to be. Either in this thread or another, I remember someone arguing about the quality of scum tells differs from noob-experienced, and I'm inclined to believe that this scum tell, coming from a noob, isn't as bad (not that experienced players will fish like that).
Alright, I have arranged my notes and am now fully ready to be productive.
First I have to agree with Puzzle, it is very aggravating the number of bad claiming plays we have had today. IIRC we have 3 players claimed right now, with a couple semi or sub claimed.
I'll start with the Abso wagon since it is obviously most pressing. Personally I don’t like it at all. The speed it grew was simply staggering in comparison to the pace of the rest of the thread. It seems nearly impossible to me that this could have happened without scum support.
I also don't like it's origins. While the Triegit wagon was still going strong, and in fact people had called for claims, Puzzle blatantly derails it by choosing a wagon target. I'm amazed that everyone simply went along with it, with only one person I can remember remarking about the forcefulness of Puzzle against the Triegit wagon. He had been against it pretty much from the start, and criticized it throughout, even posting a PBPA that was every bit as "fair and balanced" as an episode of The O'Reily Factor. Coupled with his aggression in hoping from person to person trying to start a wagon, especially early, has put him at or near the top of my scum list. Then there is post 543 in which he states:
Quote from Puzzle »
Treigit, as far as I can see, has been stirring the pot all day long n a townish way. His Pantheon claim is very coherent with this philosophy and had little to no chance to hurt the town (as far as I can see) while stimulating discussion
All I've seen from Treigit so far is bad ideas and then defending bad ideas and against accusations with bad logic. Not only is this more defense of Triegit, who never found his way off my scum list, but it is also very ironic. For Puzzle of all people to claim that 'just a little info can't hurt' is nothing short of hilarious. I'm sure many of you remember a certain game-breaking play that involved 'just a little information'.
Then there is Triegit himself. While the reasons for his wagon were laid out numerous times, most notably by DYH, the thing that recently reaffirmed his deserving of a spot on my scum list was the dissipation of his wagon so quickly when it reached 9 and people started calling for claims. It seems to me that perhaps scum were eventually forced uncomfortably onto his wagon for fear of being notably missing from it if he was lynched, and took the opportunity of the Abso wagon to hop off and turn the spotlight to pull Triegit off the hotseat.
Related to this is kops. Once the wagon gets to 8 kops posts some rather lame reasons in post 525 as to why he doesn't like the wagon and seemingly tries to deflect attention to Leilani by voting for her, and advocating a wagon. This feels to me like trying to divert attention from it.
Last is Xyre. While not related ot my above conspiracy theory, he recently earned a spot on my scum list with post 660. Before I had general bad vibes from the few post he had, but that post put him over the top with such great lines like:
Quote from Xyre »
And I'll say this: defending yourself can sometimes make you scummy.
Other people that, there are a few other people who are at simply IGMEOY level to me. Including Arimnaes (Has defended both Puzzle and Triegit), MMoD (Lurking and saying essentially that fishing isn't scummy in 663), Abandon (I can't seem to find my notes on him now, but I remember feeling he was scummy), and MD who seems to have had a large change in attitude and playstyle since the pressure came off him.
(Also, if anyone takes the [joking?] accusation that I wasn't at Origins seriously, I can provide pics. Not that it dismisses my lurking afterwards or before)
Oh, and I do not like the (now subsided I think) wagon on Kenji. I have got nothing but Town vibes from him so far. The post that got him in trouble seemed more of a logic error that he owned up to.
We also still seem to have quite a lurker problem. I'd like to see more from aurorasparrow, Hawkeye7, and silicon. Probably a couple more, but I forget who is a replacement and who is being replaced.
I suppose that’s about it for now. I really like the way this game is shaping up, and in later days there will definitely be a wealth of info to draw on from Day 1 conversation.
Sorry, should have checked the thread before finally posting. Missed the last 2 posts on here.
Quote from Disrupt_Your_Hymn »
:xd:
Oh, the irony. Sorry, I just couldn't help myself.
However, MD_ asking if Abso is the doc straight out was certainly not the best play in the world.
Yes, I too could barely contain a snort at this.
However it does bring up a point I forgot. Another thing that attracted my eye about MD of late was the fishing comment about Abso being a Doc. Scum tell or Newbery? Personally I think we;ve written off too many things to newbery so far.
Quote from Disrupt_Your_Hymn »
I see Chucklez is in the thread. Let's see if a post ensues.
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abso is a might too close to being lynched for my liking right now. I'd like to hear his thoughts on people.
As far as tregit goes, I'll try and explain how his Pantheon plan is scummy to me, and why I'm keeping an eye on him:
At first, it seems fairly harmless. After all he does just ask what we think might be represented. Then he goes on to suggest we don't name our own unless we expected it coming in. Later, in defense, he says it was to generate discussion (which sort of worked... it generated disscussion of him being scum).
However, looking at how mundane it really is, it actually appears that he may be looking for pantheons to get claims out of. If someone says they expect pantheon X to be in the game, then a scum can go looking in that pantheon for a claim, if they really wanted. Even here, this is still weak. There are several possibilities as to how the scum could use this information, but this information does nothing for the town. Why try and stir up information that has a chance to help the scum, but does nothing at all for the town? Just to stir up discussion? Surely there's something that you can use to stir up discussion that might have a chance to help the town later, and is much further from fishing.
Still right now, it's fairly weak, but that's good enough for a day 1 wagon to start at least.
Next, a few posts later he mentions his plan gives people a chance to drop in non-role related info if they had any. This is particularly scummy. This leaves the door wide open for scums. Had his plan panned out, it could have been disaterous for the town. The scum could have set up a tandem, one saying 'yes, I have info that Y is around' - Y being another one of the scums. Luckily for the town, nobody was biting on Tregit's hook, so the scum couldn't either. The example with Zeus only reinforces this.
This is the main reason as to why he's looking scummy to me.
As to why so many people jumped on the Abso wagon, my best guess is that people realized the town was more or less at a standstill - there were a couple wagons, a couple non-voters, and nobody appeared to want to budge their votes - and something new was needed to shake things up, which it has considerably. The speed was astounding, and yes, probably contains scum, even if Abso is scum, however I think the speed it grew was more because of the town wanting something to happen, and to break the standstill before we got deadlined for the standstill.
This is the kind of behavior that has had me suspicious of you through all of reading. Well, this and the aggressive wagon-mongering, that I feel goes beyond probing for reaction.
Quote from Puzzle »
However, the rest of your case in him rests on :
Actually, the rest of my case that I specifically stated here. There have been various cases laid out against him already, and I didn't feel it necessary to re-write them. However I will later today just so it is readily available.
Quote from Puzzle »
- having bad ideas and defending them. Please explain what ideas were bad and why. Then, more importantly, why were they scummy ?
Again your playing coy, you know specifically what I was refering too, mainly the Panth. plan. However as I said, I will lay out my problems more specifically with him later.
Quote from Puzzle »
- using bad logic to defend himself. Examples please. Was this logic scummy or just bad ? Explain why.
Will be included later, but I think plenty of people are with me in saying his defenses sometimes bordered on babbling.
Quote from Puzzle »
After that, myself :
- why was my PBPA unfair and unbalanced ? Examples, please.
Well all of it in general. You brush off things that every one else agrees are deserving of attention, and seem to even agree ( or claim to) with some of his dumb statements. If you insist though, I will post later a PBP of your PBP.
Quote from Puzzle »
- 'just a little info can't hurt' : where did I say that ? Concerning Treigit's Pantheon idea, if it is what you are referring to, the info related to it was to be disconnected from people's personal roles. How can it help the mafia locating power role ?
Well, I quoted the specific spot where you said "had little or no chance to hurt the Town". Also, you assume that if followed no one would allow some info about themselves to slip, or try a bad sub-claim. This is of course the purpose of fishing, to gather info by making people talk a little too much about sensitive subjects. Would you honestly say that going along with his suggestion would not have lead to info slipping, and helping scum?
Now, I understand that most of this was meant to make me flesh out my argument a bit, but you do this often and it feels highly in excess. In fact a large number of your posts come in this format, and feel condescending and pushy to most players, especially easily intimidated newbs. (See: Someone's earlier comments calling your "Godly and Paternal" persona) This seemingly pushy attitude creates a visceral reaction of distrust in many people, regardless of your true alignment.
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Hmm. Vanilla claim on day one doesn't seem like scum play to me, although I haven't had much experience with it. Right now, I'm not done with a read-through, but unless we have any opposing viewpoints, Abso isn't showing up on my scumdar.
Quote from Chucklez »
Last is Xyre. While not related ot my above conspiracy theory, he recently earned a spot on my scum list with post 660. Before I had general bad vibes from the few post he had, but that post put him over the top with such great lines like:
Dude, if you played in Random 2, you'd know how I'm serious about that point.
I would like to hear Abso keep talking (please, please post some sort defense, these "I'm screwed, just lynch me and get it right next time" posts are really bugging me), but I don't want to lynch him just yet. We need (I believe) 5 more votes for a lynch on him now, so my vote stays for pressure at the moment.
I don't think we can really read anything into Abso claiming the God of Mercy (in the sense of I don't think we can say he's not evil because of that). He could easily have been a more evil-sounding god from that same series, gone to the website, and pulled out a fake claim from it. That way it seems like he's town and if someone else (like aurorasparrow) is also from that series, they can back him up. Plus, with the number of gods on that page, the chance of picking one someone else has in amazingly small. So, that claim seems pretty safe for scum, but it also points to townie if you believe the god's name (how can the God of Mercy be evil?).
So, please keep talking Abso. And please, please defend your self as opposed to just giving up this time.
I was prepared to unvote Abso after Aurorasparrow's revelation. What that means is that Abso isn't false claiming some obscure God no one will counter-claim. This doesn't mean he can't be mafia. We don't know the set-up. But it is at least a point in his favor.
But I absolutely hate the way he claimed vanilla. Not the fact that he claimed vanilla. I expect there will be vanilla type roles in the game, but the way he tried to excuse himself for being vanilla. That really makes me think he's mafia who doesn't know if there are actually vanilla roles in the town, and who didn't want to be caught out for claiming vanilla when nobody else was--so he tried to head off that argument before anyone even tried to make it--by suggesting he had reason to believe he might be the only vanilla. Which is just silly in my opinion. Could be construed as fishing too, but that's not my primary beef.
He could easily be mafia with some kind of ability he doesn't want to claim (because it could be countered/is clearly scummy) and can't think of a false ability that would be safe to claim.
That, coupled with his lack of defense, makes me feel he's the right lynch today.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Silicon, I challenge you to name a single pantheon containing only scummy Gods. I seriously doubt they're out there, thus scum already know a Pantheon that was included in the game from which they can pull their false claim (if needed). Even if they didn't think they could false claim from their pantheon, all scum need to do is wait for a single lynch (or claim) and they know included pantheons.
I would absolutly love to have a scum say "I know Zeus is in this game and town" when zeus is their scum buddy, or there scum buddy is planning to claim zeus. Why? Because this gives us 2 for one scum if the SK or vig kills either. BTW, scum hardly need my pantheon prodding to false claim masons.
As far as generating discussion (primarily about me), it's something I try in every game. I also end up being the primary band wagon at some point day 1, but haven't ever been lynched. (Though one time I caused my "brother" to be lynced because people wanted to kill me.)
Please stop misrepresenting me by saying that I think that "essentially fishing is not scummy". I specifically said that in that one example alone, it's not as scummy.
Axelrod, you have convinced me without a doubt of Abso membership in the mafia. I'm not sure I expect a dedicated answer from Abso to Puzzle's questions. I hope he pipes up, but I'm ready to lynch him.
Eh. Axel is very likely right here, Are we ready to end the day? That said, I still really dislike your wagonning, A_H, especially when taken together with your previous play.
What?! Look at the initial post; he is dead. Deceased. Kaputt. Indefinitely horizontal. In mafia games, you see, people are occasionally "killed off," and when that sad event occurs, he or she is no longer allowed to post, on account of rigor mortis and what-have-you.
'Welcome to Mafia Salvation', it said, 'Population: 3,660.' And someone, they never figured out who, had painted on the sign in red letters: '1,831 to lynch.'
Even if he does come back vanilla, I don't know that that definitvely clears him. More than anything I'd love to hear analysis from him. Who does he find scummy. Why particularily. (If it's because they're on his wagon, what differentiates them from others on the wagon.) What sort of faulty arguments particularily does he see Puzzle using, etc.
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Eh. Axel is very likely right here, Are we ready to end the day? That said, I still really dislike your wagonning, A_H, especially when taken together with your previous play.
Whatever. I've never really cared for the emphasis on individuality in mafia. Yeah, it's sometimes easier for the mafia to blend in and just agree with people. But when someone's right, they're right. I have no problem following someone around, until they're wrong.
That said, it's less of a wagon, and more of assurance that Axelrod has given me. My vote was already on abso for a reason. And it's staying on Abso for a reason. Really why would I remove it? If there is a rush on Abso, the rushers are going to have to explain themselves. Either way is good.
Silicon, I challenge you to name a single pantheon containing only scummy Gods. I seriously doubt they're out there, thus scum already know a Pantheon that was included in the game from which they can pull their false claim (if needed). Even if they didn't think they could false claim from their pantheon, all scum need to do is wait for a single lynch (or claim) and they know included pantheons.
Well you must remember, scum have more information than the town. They know what pantheon each of them are from. If they all happen to be from the same one, they would probably be uneasy claiming anything from that one. As far as waiting for a mislynch or a claim, yes each one gives them some information, but your plan would have given them a wealth of information that we don't want them to have right now, which is why you're extremely scummy right now.
Quote from Treigit »
I would absolutly love to have a scum say "I know Zeus is in this game and town" when zeus is their scum buddy, or there scum buddy is planning to claim zeus. Why? Because this gives us 2 for one scum if the SK or vig kills either. BTW, scum hardly need my pantheon prodding to false claim masons.
Not quite - if the one who is Zeus dies, then you get 2 for 1, but if the one who said it dies, you wouldn't necessarily get 2 for 1 - in fact I highly doubt you would, since we can't very well trust what scum say. As far as not needing you prodding to false claim masons or anything like that, no they don't, but you left the door wide open for them to walk in if the town happened to follow it. Why even give them such an opportunity?
Quote from Treigit »
As far as generating discussion (primarily about me), it's something I try in every game. I also end up being the primary band wagon at some point day 1, but haven't ever been lynched. (Though one time I caused my "brother" to be lynced because people wanted to kill me.)
Just because you make a bad play every game, does not excuse the fact that it's a bad play.
Not quite - if the one who is Zeus dies, then you get 2 for 1, but if the one who said it dies, you wouldn't necessarily get 2 for 1 - in fact I highly doubt you would, since we can't very well trust what scum say. As far as not needing you prodding to false claim masons or anything like that, no they don't, but you left the door wide open for them to walk in if the town happened to follow it. Why even give them such an opportunity?
True, I suppose scum might make up info that doesn't clear themselves, doesn't clear other scum, and might clear a townie.
Further, I can't leave the door wide open. That particular door doesn't shut.
Quote from Kenji »
Cyan's news makes things very interesting, should Cyan's result come back saying Abso is vanilla then a lot of people have been invested to save Abso, more than I feel any scum would do on day 1. This makes me seriously question Treigit's comment of "Even if he does come back vanilla, I don't know that that definitvely clears him."
I'm not saying that Cyan would be lying about his ability to clear fellow scum Abso. I'm saying there is a chance that Abso is a vanilla mafia. Nor do I think AS lied about his pantheon. These are reasonable steps that townies would take to prevent a myslynch. I don't want him to think "Oh Cyan's saved me, I don't have to talk anymore."
Does this mean that Cyan is going to get nightkilled? Now, I'm not trying to fish, but if he can clear Abso by means of talking to DM, doesn't that mean that the mafia will kill him? I think that's a fair statement to make, since it's pretty much common sense.
Was that a bad thing to point out?
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I don't think there's any harm in pointing out the possibility, it just means that the docs and the killers get to play head games with one another.
That said, we know nothing about Cyan's ability except that it will say whether or not Abso is vanilla, it won't even show alignment. At this point, Cyan's certainty is all the info I want from him.
Sorry for answering only your post and not all the ones discussing Treigit.
Again, you know the main points against Treigit and could have adressed them as well. But that can wait for my case for his scummery.
Quote from Puzzle »
I didn't brush them off off the bat. I looked into them on my own and came to different conclusions than "everyone else" :
It's fine to disagree, but you didn't let us see the reasoning behind it. In your PBP it just comes of as brushing things off with little to no regard.
Quote from Puzzle »
- why is it wrong to disagree with the majority ?
This is not what I said, see above.
Quote from Puzzle »
- why are my statements "dumb" ?
Once again, I didn't say this. I said that you seemingly agreed with some of his dumb comments, and by assosiation perhaps you, but I never outright called you or anything you said dumb.
Quote from Puzzle »
I don't know. Do you ?
Thinking it through, I can see how his move could have generated slips or bad sub-claims : if this discussion had lasted long enough at the core of the day, some townies might have gotten bored and made mistakes for the sake of discussion but the chances of that happening :
- are imo not so high as most people seem to make them.
- are easily as high when there are not enough subjects of discussion.
So even though there is chance (likelyhood debatable) that this plan would lead to info only usefull to scum, it was still an acceptable risk because it gets people talking? Sorry but I just can't buy that. There are plenty of other safer ways to get people talking.
Quote from Puzzle »
I think his idea, although not the best ever, is the lesser of two evils for a beginning of day one. That is, obviously, if there are not enough subjects on the table yet. I think it was the case back then but may need to check.
You assume here that our only options were A.) Treigit creates a bad plan and we go from there, or B.) Absolutely nothing happens, and no one else would try to spur conversation in a better way. Well, I see a couple of options that are a lot more appealing than those.
Quote from Puzzle »
On a side note, I'm still waiting for examples of his scums tells, which Abso, CP and kops still fail to give me.
Yes, I am aware. While as I said DYH has laid the vast majority of the charges already I will round them up and post a formal case against him later. (It proved to take longer than I'm up to tonight. Expect it tomorrow.)
Quote from Puzzle »
No kidding. I'm pushy.
I'm pushy because it generates reactions to analyze, which I think helps discerning scums from townies.
I'm pushy because it gives stuff for people to discuss and I think discussion helps the town.
And most importantly, I'm pushy because anyway I hate it when a game stagnates.
I can appreciate aggressive play, but as I'll explain a bit more below, I think you take it a bit further than you need to, or should.
Quote from Puzzle »
I'm trying not to look condescending (and sorry if I fail) but because someone isn't at ease doesn't mean he should be left alone.
I never said that, but I think you could use a little more discretion. One of the things I've never liked about Salvation is the way people take scummyness as scummyness with no thought for context. I think more times than you'd care to admit here at Sally the Town is sent on Red Herring searches into players who simply made a mistake under pressure, as humans do.
Quote from Puzzle »
And at least, I don't call others' posts "dumb".
This sounds downright juvenile. While perhaps I should have been a little more tacful to in talking about Treigit, I think it is fully justified to bring forth harsh critisizms against some of the things he's said. Calling his some of his posts dumb was in no way less harsh than what you say to some players, however it was admittedly less eloquently.
Quote from Puzzle »
All this may generate a visceral reaction of distrust but past the emotional rush, is it good or bad for the town and why ?
I think you are faulty in assuming that the majority of players (especially newbs) will make it past the "emotional rush".
But granted they do, I think it has mixed effects. While it does provide valuable information, I think there are other ways to garner the activity from players without potentially turning them away from a valuable resource to the Town. (EI: Your analysis)
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of its steep paths have a chance of gaining its luminous summits"
-Karl Heinrich Marx Cube
Now, I understand that most of this was meant to make me flesh out my argument a bit, but you do this often and it feels highly in excess. In fact a large number of your posts come in this format, and feel condescending and pushy to most players, especially easily intimidated newbs. (See: Someone's earlier comments calling your "Godly and Paternal" persona) This seemingly pushy attitude creates a visceral reaction of distrust in many people, regardless of your true alignment.
Puzzle.
Stop being so pushy!
Regardless of your alignment or the amount of discussion you spawn.
Puzzle. Oh, Spawner of Discussion.
Quote from !Chucklez! »
Quote from Puzzle »
I think his idea, although not the best ever, is the lesser of two evils for a beginning of day one. That is, obviously, if there are not enough subjects on the table yet. I think it was the case back then but may need to check.
You assume here that our only options were A.) Treigit creates a bad plan and we go from there, or B.) Absolutely nothing happens, and no one else would try to spur conversation in a better way. Well, I see a couple of options that are a lot more appealing than those.
A wink and posted examples are as good as unsupported criticism, to a blind man.
Especially when posted way after the fact.
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Awaiting Cyan's result.Other than that, I can only echo Kenji- I did not like Treigit's attempt to poison the well on Cyan's "confirmation" of Abso at all. It sounded very much to me like Treigit knows what the result's going to be and started trying to spin it early.
Also awaiting Cyan's result. I'm not sure what to think, assuming Cyan's result comes back that Abso is indeed vanilla. Every post Abso has made since his wagon started has made me think he's scum, so I could see him being vanilla scum but reluctant to claim vanilla in case of no vanilla townies. However, Treigit first brought this possiblity up, and my current view of Treigit is somewhere between unknown and scum, meaning that what he says is automatically suspect. Of course, if Cyan comes back and says that Abso lied, then all of this is mute. Waiting on you, Cyan.
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"Flesh so fine, so fine to tear, to gash the skin; skin to strip, to plait, so nice to plait the strips, so nice, so red the drops that fall; blood so red, so red, so sweet; sweet screams, pretty screams, singing screams, scream your song, sing your screams…” - The Eye of the World - Robert Jordan
However, looking at how mundane it really is, it actually appears that he may be looking for pantheons to get claims out of. If someone says they expect pantheon X to be in the game, then a scum can go looking in that pantheon for a claim, if they really wanted. Even here, this is still weak. There are several possibilities as to how the scum could use this information, but this information does nothing for the town. Why try and stir up information that has a chance to help the scum, but does nothing at all for the town? Just to stir up discussion? Surely there's something that you can use to stir up discussion that might have a chance to help the town later, and is much further from fishing.
Just a note here: the scum already have far more access to pantheon-based knowledge than we do (unless they all come from a specific pantheon). They have 5-6 members, which might translate to 5-6 sources from which to draw claims. If they even need to false claim, that is. I suppose their first tendency might not be to claim Sammael, for instance, but there are plenty of societies whose Gods are...ambiguously good or evil, to say the least.
Just a note here: the scum already have far more access to pantheon-based knowledge than we do (unless they all come from a specific pantheon). They have 5-6 members, which might translate to 5-6 sources from which to draw claims. If they even need to false claim, that is. I suppose their first tendency might not be to claim Sammael, for instance, but there are plenty of societies whose Gods are...ambiguously good or evil, to say the least.
Vote Azrael.
Yes, I realize that it is very possible that the scum all come from different pantheons, there is no way to know this right now. However, the best thing for us to do is not throw out more pantheons - the scum have enough information from their own roles, and we don't need to add to it. Considering that there is a small chance that they are all from the same pantheon, we don't want to offer up free information to them.
A_H: thats an annoying style of play because its all reactive and you don't know if who you're following is scum.
Er, I'm going to dispute this. Not because it's the smart thing to do or because it's completly relevant to the game, but because I want to.
It's annoying: Subjective. I apologize for annoying anyone. At the risk of sounding like chamber, I fear I must inform you that I plan to continue regardless.
It's reactive: This means nothing. Following by definition is reactive. I'm not excluding individual ideas, and the individual expression of those ideas. I think if someone has expressed valid points, it is valid to agree, act, and leave it at that. In short it is valid to follow if an appropriate idea is expressed. If alot of ideas make good sense, it is valid to follow alot.
I don't know if I'm following scum: Right. I don't. I have my suspicions, but I'm not sure. Regardless, if the idea is sound, I can follow. In the charade, mafia may act like townies, to the point of taking pro town actions. I support following them on those actions. It doesn't matter the source if the proposed action or idea is sound.
Axelrod, you have convinced me without a doubt of Abso membership in the mafia. I'm not sure I expect a dedicated answer from Abso to Puzzle's questions. I hope he pipes up, but I'm ready to lynch him.
And where will you stand when he's wrong?
Quote from Cyan »
Please wait..I can verify whether or not Abso is Vanilla, and have already done what need be to do so, I'm just waiting on word from DM.
That's certainly interesting...
In any case, I have no worries...
Sorry for the lack of posting. My missus has surprise visited me and is taking up most of my time right now.
unvote
I still think Absolutionis should post content - and my vote may return there if he doesn't start, but I am now very wary of how big that wagon grew.
Mostly however I don't want my vote to contribute to a lynch when I haven't had a real chance to go back over the thread, and might not get a chance to respond till tomorrow.
---------------------------------------------
Abandon Hope is giving me some pretty weird vibes.
Quote from Abandon Hope »
What the heck is happening here? Did I miss an anouncement? The goal is now to act as scummy as possible, and that will help? Gah! Bluesoul, MD, MMoD, and Xyre all wildly competing to derail the Abso bandwagon by virtue of their own scumminess.
I don't even know where to begin. So I won't. One thing at a time people. We're not satisfied with Abso's claim (though Aurora Sparrow certainly helps confirm). We need more from him, and less chaos.
Is that the Royal 'we'? I didn't really like it how he put words into the mouth of the town.
I am going to have a look at the rest of his posts and see if they reveal anything.
Absolutionis was telling the truth about being Vanilla. I'm inclined to accept that he's telling the truth, then, about being town, as I doubt that this game has any vanilla mafioso. Time to look at the people on his wagon, I guess. I see that Krashbot was the second person onto his wagon...this, combined with the rest of Krash's sketchy play today, makes me happy to do the following: Unvote, Vote Krashbot
Despite the fact that Cyan's confirmation of Abso's vanilla status, Abso really hasn't said anything that helped the game which was the main reason I was voting him in the first place. Anyway, I'm still not sure if he's vanilla town or vanilla scum based on what he's posted since the wagon started.
Vote stands for the moment.
Quote from Cyan »
I see that Krashbot was the second person onto his wagon...
Really? Let me check something.
*Krashbot101 gots into PBPA on the begining of the Abso wagon.*
Quote from Puzzle, Post 564 »
I think an Absolutionis wagon would be quite justified at this point... vote Absolutionis.
(1 vote)
*Vote count added*
Post 565 - DYH votes Abso saying he supports getting people to post. (2 votes)
Post 566 - silicon votes Abso saying he can get behind the wagon. (3 votes)
Post 567 - CropCircles votes Abso (not much reasoning) (4 votes)
Post 568 - Axelrod almost votes Abso (not sure if he this meant as a joke, FoS, or both)
Post 570 - AZ notes how it is really easy to force specific lurkers out in a game with this many lurkers.
Post 571 - A_H votes Abso saying he wants to help force out lurkers. (5 votes)
Post 573 - Abso makes a scummy looking post including no defense, and contraditcting itself (already discussed).
Post 575 - Puzzle quotes post 573 and asks (I think it was half-joke) if we can lynch him.
Post 576 - I say "Sounds good. ;)" (note the emoticon, this was a joke) and vote Abso saying I want to keep the pressure on him to keep talking and that his last post didn't look good. (6 votes)
Post 577 - MMoD notes a few scum tells in Abso's past two posts and hops on the wagon. (7 votes)
Posts 578-581 - Discussion about the speed of the wagon.
Post 582 - aurorasparrow votes Abso saying he looks really scummy (8 votes)
I'm gonna stop here because I think it proves my point.
Last I checked, being the 6th vote on a wagon was not even close to being the the second person on the wagon.
Also, I was in the middle of a pile of other people also voting Abso, not to mention that I didn't even vote until Abso responded in a rather scummy manner. In retrospect, the wagon did get moving really fast, but I the reasons for that have already been discussed, and I somehow doubt my vote there did anything to make it go faster (past adding a vote, of course).
If you would like to put up a reasonable case against me, I'll see what I can do to defend it.
Being the 6th person doesn't really make it any better, I don't think, but my apologies for that, I assumed that the list of player names on Abso's wagon was in order of when they got on.
Not Voting (5)- kops723, silicon, DYH, axelrod, passdog
Updating first post
Take note that some people, I don't have an opinion on.
Azrael = His inability to vote for anyone but himself makes me assume his ability must be moderately powerful considering his relative powerlessness in the voting process. I have an assumption that his true ability lies in something happening when he votes someone other than himself. A vigillante perhaps?
Puzzle = Very likely scum. His bandwagons gather immense speed, and in my case especially, Puzzle's intent was to perform a lynch rather than weed out a lurker. He constantly beckons other people to play the game as he wishes it. Overagressive, but that's the way I've seen him usually play.
Tregit = I once thought he was scum. Then he faded into the background with nobody else voting him except some stragglers that have not changed their votes yet. Correct me if I am incorrect. Maybe scum?
Hawkeye = That scumminess ranking chart confuses me. I'm unsure whether that's a voting restriction or not, seeing as how it's not always used. I may be inclined to believe moderate scum, if only for the fact that his list does not coincide with my listings of people at all.
Cyan = I have no idea what your ability is. Some clarification on what exactly you did would shed some light. From what I gather, your ability doesn't directly test for vanilla. You have some other ability that can somehow be used as a method for testing?
CropCircles = Very scummy. Actions have bee little more than votes with little reason. Hence, has my vote.
Abandon Hope = Scummy. Is willing to end the day too quickly and relies on others.
MD = Established newbie. Uses the newbie excuse far too often, but somehow it works, and for some reason I believe him. Worships Puzzle, and that bothers me. Most likely attributed to a newbie learning off an experienced behavior. Seeing as how I view Puzzle as scum, MD's adherence to Puzzle's word may become dangerous.
Aurorasparrow = Claimed doc, jokingly. I'm confused as to why he said that. Puzzle got angry at him for claiming doc as such, which makes me believe that Aurorasparrow and Puzzle aren't in the same league. I see AS as townie. Also, he's from the same series as me. I have no idea what this Glasswright series is. In fact, Wikipedia helps little. All I have is a list of Glasswright gods and their abilities and I work off of that.
!Chucklez! = Challenges Puzzle on many accounts, to which his challenge generally falls unnoticed. I'm leaning town on this one.
Xyre = General Town, no reason other than general vibes
Kenji = General Town despite focusing on MD much. MD may be scum.
I disagree that Puzzle is 'very likely scum' because of your bandwagon, because all he did was vote you, it was the other people that quickly jumped on(though honestly, your responses flatly sucked and you deserved the bandwagon).
Anyway, I don't think that it's necessary to expose my ability at this time. I'm town, but, my ability isn't going to clear me, and it was never my intention to try and do so. People just seemed stuck on your claim, and I knew that I could concretely solve that, so, I did. I find it unlikely that any of the mafioso are vanilla, so, it looks like we avoided a mislynch, and I'm glad of that. Honestly, my ability isn't greatly useful anyway, this is probably the best use for it, heh.
It seems like you responded to everyone on your wagon..other than Krashbot...I'm interested in hearing your thoughts about him.
It seems like you responded to everyone on your wagon..other than Krashbot...I'm interested in hearing your thoughts about him.
I did not comment on MMoD and Krashbot and Machin Shin because I have no opinion on them. I've reread their posts and still I do not wish to draw false conclusions for no other reason than forcing myself to draw an opinion.
Being the 6th person doesn't really make it any better, I don't think
Actually, the fact that I was 6th (as opposed to 2nd) was only half of my point with that post (I know it was slightly more emphasized, but that's because that seemed to be your main argument). The other half of my point was that I didn't vote for Abso until after he had already posted a rather scummy-looking response.
Also, if you would care to actually make a case on me as opposed to just saying, "he hopped on the Abso wagon and did some other scummy stuff," I'd be happy to respond to it.
@Absolutionis: Finally, something other than "I give up, just lynch me, but know that I'm town." Thank you.
However, in the absence of a real defense/explanation for your actions, I find it very hard to unvote you (well, I could always go back to Treigit :D). As I believe I noted in my last post, Cyan verifying your vanillaness is a point in your favor, but it doesn't clear you, so I would still like a defense/explanation.
I'm willing to accept this for the time being. Neither of what Sparrow said of Cyan said "clears" you, but both independantly confirm different parts of what you said, which is more than we have for most people.
Personally, I dislike Tregit's reactions to both the claim, and what others said about it, so I'm happy to go back to a:
Vote: Tregit
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
What is there to say? I'm happy with my vote where it is. You don't have an ability? It doesn't clear you, and your behavior hasn't improved. Yeah you posted an analysis of your tormenters, but only when you found yourself less likely to be lynched. I am not impressed either by its timing or content.
I noticed I am still voting from forever and a half ago. So first I'll Unvote.
Is there a way to get only a single person's posts listed in order? You can do it on GL and I suppose I'm spoiled on it because it is taking me forever just to research two people.
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"There is no royal road to science, and only those who do not dread the fatiguing climb
of its steep paths have a chance of gaining its luminous summits"
-Karl Heinrich Marx Cube
Yeah, sort of. At the top of the page is the search option. Go into advanced, enter the name, a cut off date, search only the mafia forum, and limit the thread to those under 800 posts, that should make it mostly relevant.
Now watch someone else post an exact way to do it and make me look like an Idiot
EBWODP: Oh, and Limit/display results as posts, not threads.
Damn, I never realized you guys were missing out on the awesome feature over there. Just shows you in thread form all posts by anyone you specify in order. It's super convenient, but I only realize this now that I don't have it. :-(
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"There is no royal road to science, and only those who do not dread the fatiguing climb
of its steep paths have a chance of gaining its luminous summits"
-Karl Heinrich Marx Cube
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I don't like my vote on Cyan right now, so I'll just go ahead and Unvote, Vote Absolutionis. I don't like his last couple posts. The more pressure is put on him, the worse his defense gets. I hope he actually makes a good one when he is near-lynch.
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:xd:
Oh, the irony. Sorry, I just couldn't help myself.
However, MD_ asking if Abso is the doc straight out was certainly not the best play in the world.
I must say that I found Mosschop's commentary on Absolutionis' moaning about being vanilla to be rather insightful.
I see Chucklez is in the thread. Let's see if a post ensues.
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
I think you've slightly misrepresented what I said.
The main part of my defense of MD was that Puzzle and others said basically the same (which now I realize they didn't) and the second part was tacked on, as a small added defense, since no averagely-experienced player would say something like this, or respond to it.
That said, it looks slightly worse for MD. I still believe that it's not as bad as everyone makes it out to be. Either in this thread or another, I remember someone arguing about the quality of scum tells differs from noob-experienced, and I'm inclined to believe that this scum tell, coming from a noob, isn't as bad (not that experienced players will fish like that).
to AS for that comment!
First I have to agree with Puzzle, it is very aggravating the number of bad claiming plays we have had today. IIRC we have 3 players claimed right now, with a couple semi or sub claimed.
I'll start with the Abso wagon since it is obviously most pressing. Personally I don’t like it at all. The speed it grew was simply staggering in comparison to the pace of the rest of the thread. It seems nearly impossible to me that this could have happened without scum support.
I also don't like it's origins. While the Triegit wagon was still going strong, and in fact people had called for claims, Puzzle blatantly derails it by choosing a wagon target. I'm amazed that everyone simply went along with it, with only one person I can remember remarking about the forcefulness of Puzzle against the Triegit wagon. He had been against it pretty much from the start, and criticized it throughout, even posting a PBPA that was every bit as "fair and balanced" as an episode of The O'Reily Factor. Coupled with his aggression in hoping from person to person trying to start a wagon, especially early, has put him at or near the top of my scum list. Then there is post 543 in which he states:
All I've seen from Treigit so far is bad ideas and then defending bad ideas and against accusations with bad logic. Not only is this more defense of Triegit, who never found his way off my scum list, but it is also very ironic. For Puzzle of all people to claim that 'just a little info can't hurt' is nothing short of hilarious. I'm sure many of you remember a certain game-breaking play that involved 'just a little information'.
Then there is Triegit himself. While the reasons for his wagon were laid out numerous times, most notably by DYH, the thing that recently reaffirmed his deserving of a spot on my scum list was the dissipation of his wagon so quickly when it reached 9 and people started calling for claims. It seems to me that perhaps scum were eventually forced uncomfortably onto his wagon for fear of being notably missing from it if he was lynched, and took the opportunity of the Abso wagon to hop off and turn the spotlight to pull Triegit off the hotseat.
Related to this is kops. Once the wagon gets to 8 kops posts some rather lame reasons in post 525 as to why he doesn't like the wagon and seemingly tries to deflect attention to Leilani by voting for her, and advocating a wagon. This feels to me like trying to divert attention from it.
Last is Xyre. While not related ot my above conspiracy theory, he recently earned a spot on my scum list with post 660. Before I had general bad vibes from the few post he had, but that post put him over the top with such great lines like:
Other people that, there are a few other people who are at simply IGMEOY level to me. Including Arimnaes (Has defended both Puzzle and Triegit), MMoD (Lurking and saying essentially that fishing isn't scummy in 663), Abandon (I can't seem to find my notes on him now, but I remember feeling he was scummy), and MD who seems to have had a large change in attitude and playstyle since the pressure came off him.
(Also, if anyone takes the [joking?] accusation that I wasn't at Origins seriously, I can provide pics. Not that it dismisses my lurking afterwards or before)
Oh, and I do not like the (now subsided I think) wagon on Kenji. I have got nothing but Town vibes from him so far. The post that got him in trouble seemed more of a logic error that he owned up to.
We also still seem to have quite a lurker problem. I'd like to see more from aurorasparrow, Hawkeye7, and silicon. Probably a couple more, but I forget who is a replacement and who is being replaced.
I suppose that’s about it for now. I really like the way this game is shaping up, and in later days there will definitely be a wealth of info to draw on from Day 1 conversation.
Sorry, should have checked the thread before finally posting. Missed the last 2 posts on here.
Yes, I too could barely contain a snort at this.
However it does bring up a point I forgot. Another thing that attracted my eye about MD of late was the fishing comment about Abso being a Doc. Scum tell or Newbery? Personally I think we;ve written off too many things to newbery so far.
Hope you like it.
of its steep paths have a chance of gaining its luminous summits"
-Karl Heinrich Marx
Cube
abso is a might too close to being lynched for my liking right now. I'd like to hear his thoughts on people.
As far as tregit goes, I'll try and explain how his Pantheon plan is scummy to me, and why I'm keeping an eye on him:
At first, it seems fairly harmless. After all he does just ask what we think might be represented. Then he goes on to suggest we don't name our own unless we expected it coming in. Later, in defense, he says it was to generate discussion (which sort of worked... it generated disscussion of him being scum).
However, looking at how mundane it really is, it actually appears that he may be looking for pantheons to get claims out of. If someone says they expect pantheon X to be in the game, then a scum can go looking in that pantheon for a claim, if they really wanted. Even here, this is still weak. There are several possibilities as to how the scum could use this information, but this information does nothing for the town. Why try and stir up information that has a chance to help the scum, but does nothing at all for the town? Just to stir up discussion? Surely there's something that you can use to stir up discussion that might have a chance to help the town later, and is much further from fishing.
Still right now, it's fairly weak, but that's good enough for a day 1 wagon to start at least.
Next, a few posts later he mentions his plan gives people a chance to drop in non-role related info if they had any. This is particularly scummy. This leaves the door wide open for scums. Had his plan panned out, it could have been disaterous for the town. The scum could have set up a tandem, one saying 'yes, I have info that Y is around' - Y being another one of the scums. Luckily for the town, nobody was biting on Tregit's hook, so the scum couldn't either. The example with Zeus only reinforces this.
This is the main reason as to why he's looking scummy to me.
As to why so many people jumped on the Abso wagon, my best guess is that people realized the town was more or less at a standstill - there were a couple wagons, a couple non-voters, and nobody appeared to want to budge their votes - and something new was needed to shake things up, which it has considerably. The speed was astounding, and yes, probably contains scum, even if Abso is scum, however I think the speed it grew was more because of the town wanting something to happen, and to break the standstill before we got deadlined for the standstill.
Actually, the rest of my case that I specifically stated here. There have been various cases laid out against him already, and I didn't feel it necessary to re-write them. However I will later today just so it is readily available.
Again your playing coy, you know specifically what I was refering too, mainly the Panth. plan. However as I said, I will lay out my problems more specifically with him later.
Will be included later, but I think plenty of people are with me in saying his defenses sometimes bordered on babbling.
Well all of it in general. You brush off things that every one else agrees are deserving of attention, and seem to even agree ( or claim to) with some of his dumb statements. If you insist though, I will post later a PBP of your PBP.
Well, I quoted the specific spot where you said "had little or no chance to hurt the Town". Also, you assume that if followed no one would allow some info about themselves to slip, or try a bad sub-claim. This is of course the purpose of fishing, to gather info by making people talk a little too much about sensitive subjects. Would you honestly say that going along with his suggestion would not have lead to info slipping, and helping scum?
Now, I understand that most of this was meant to make me flesh out my argument a bit, but you do this often and it feels highly in excess. In fact a large number of your posts come in this format, and feel condescending and pushy to most players, especially easily intimidated newbs. (See: Someone's earlier comments calling your "Godly and Paternal" persona) This seemingly pushy attitude creates a visceral reaction of distrust in many people, regardless of your true alignment.
of its steep paths have a chance of gaining its luminous summits"
-Karl Heinrich Marx
Cube
Dude, if you played in Random 2, you'd know how I'm serious about that point.
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I don't think we can really read anything into Abso claiming the God of Mercy (in the sense of I don't think we can say he's not evil because of that). He could easily have been a more evil-sounding god from that same series, gone to the website, and pulled out a fake claim from it. That way it seems like he's town and if someone else (like aurorasparrow) is also from that series, they can back him up. Plus, with the number of gods on that page, the chance of picking one someone else has in amazingly small. So, that claim seems pretty safe for scum, but it also points to townie if you believe the god's name (how can the God of Mercy be evil?).
So, please keep talking Abso. And please, please defend your self as opposed to just giving up this time.
Winner of the Weekly Signature & Avatar Contest Weeks 51, 59, 78, & 118.
I don't care if I was framed for murder if I only got a warning I would let it go.
I was prepared to unvote Abso after Aurorasparrow's revelation. What that means is that Abso isn't false claiming some obscure God no one will counter-claim. This doesn't mean he can't be mafia. We don't know the set-up. But it is at least a point in his favor.
But I absolutely hate the way he claimed vanilla. Not the fact that he claimed vanilla. I expect there will be vanilla type roles in the game, but the way he tried to excuse himself for being vanilla. That really makes me think he's mafia who doesn't know if there are actually vanilla roles in the town, and who didn't want to be caught out for claiming vanilla when nobody else was--so he tried to head off that argument before anyone even tried to make it--by suggesting he had reason to believe he might be the only vanilla. Which is just silly in my opinion. Could be construed as fishing too, but that's not my primary beef.
He could easily be mafia with some kind of ability he doesn't want to claim (because it could be countered/is clearly scummy) and can't think of a false ability that would be safe to claim.
That, coupled with his lack of defense, makes me feel he's the right lynch today.
I would absolutly love to have a scum say "I know Zeus is in this game and town" when zeus is their scum buddy, or there scum buddy is planning to claim zeus. Why? Because this gives us 2 for one scum if the SK or vig kills either. BTW, scum hardly need my pantheon prodding to false claim masons.
As far as generating discussion (primarily about me), it's something I try in every game. I also end up being the primary band wagon at some point day 1, but haven't ever been lynched. (Though one time I caused my "brother" to be lynced because people wanted to kill me.)
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It's nice to see you posting, yes. That banner makes me laugh for some reason every time I see it, as well, so that's just gravy.
Well that's certainly interesting, Cyan. I think there are some outstanding questions from Puzzle that he wanted Absolutionis to answer as well.
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
I am willing to wait for whatever Cyan has here.
That said, it's less of a wagon, and more of assurance that Axelrod has given me. My vote was already on abso for a reason. And it's staying on Abso for a reason. Really why would I remove it? If there is a rush on Abso, the rushers are going to have to explain themselves. Either way is good.
Well you must remember, scum have more information than the town. They know what pantheon each of them are from. If they all happen to be from the same one, they would probably be uneasy claiming anything from that one. As far as waiting for a mislynch or a claim, yes each one gives them some information, but your plan would have given them a wealth of information that we don't want them to have right now, which is why you're extremely scummy right now.
Not quite - if the one who is Zeus dies, then you get 2 for 1, but if the one who said it dies, you wouldn't necessarily get 2 for 1 - in fact I highly doubt you would, since we can't very well trust what scum say. As far as not needing you prodding to false claim masons or anything like that, no they don't, but you left the door wide open for them to walk in if the town happened to follow it. Why even give them such an opportunity?
Just because you make a bad play every game, does not excuse the fact that it's a bad play.
Further, I can't leave the door wide open. That particular door doesn't shut.
I'm not saying that Cyan would be lying about his ability to clear fellow scum Abso. I'm saying there is a chance that Abso is a vanilla mafia. Nor do I think AS lied about his pantheon. These are reasonable steps that townies would take to prevent a myslynch. I don't want him to think "Oh Cyan's saved me, I don't have to talk anymore."
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Was that a bad thing to point out?
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That said, we know nothing about Cyan's ability except that it will say whether or not Abso is vanilla, it won't even show alignment. At this point, Cyan's certainty is all the info I want from him.
Silicon: Treigit's play was bad, but it's not as bad as you're cooking it up to be.
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25: 25.1%
26: 25.3%
It's fine to disagree, but you didn't let us see the reasoning behind it. In your PBP it just comes of as brushing things off with little to no regard.
This is not what I said, see above.
Once again, I didn't say this. I said that you seemingly agreed with some of his dumb comments, and by assosiation perhaps you, but I never outright called you or anything you said dumb.
So even though there is chance (likelyhood debatable) that this plan would lead to info only usefull to scum, it was still an acceptable risk because it gets people talking? Sorry but I just can't buy that. There are plenty of other safer ways to get people talking.
You assume here that our only options were A.) Treigit creates a bad plan and we go from there, or B.) Absolutely nothing happens, and no one else would try to spur conversation in a better way. Well, I see a couple of options that are a lot more appealing than those.
Yes, I am aware. While as I said DYH has laid the vast majority of the charges already I will round them up and post a formal case against him later. (It proved to take longer than I'm up to tonight. Expect it tomorrow.)
I can appreciate aggressive play, but as I'll explain a bit more below, I think you take it a bit further than you need to, or should.
I never said that, but I think you could use a little more discretion. One of the things I've never liked about Salvation is the way people take scummyness as scummyness with no thought for context. I think more times than you'd care to admit here at Sally the Town is sent on Red Herring searches into players who simply made a mistake under pressure, as humans do.
This sounds downright juvenile. While perhaps I should have been a little more tacful to in talking about Treigit, I think it is fully justified to bring forth harsh critisizms against some of the things he's said. Calling his some of his posts dumb was in no way less harsh than what you say to some players, however it was admittedly less eloquently.
I think you are faulty in assuming that the majority of players (especially newbs) will make it past the "emotional rush".
But granted they do, I think it has mixed effects. While it does provide valuable information, I think there are other ways to garner the activity from players without potentially turning them away from a valuable resource to the Town. (EI: Your analysis)
of its steep paths have a chance of gaining its luminous summits"
-Karl Heinrich Marx
Cube
Puzzle.
Stop being so pushy!
Regardless of your alignment or the amount of discussion you spawn.
Puzzle. Oh, Spawner of Discussion.
A wink and posted examples are as good as unsupported criticism, to a blind man.
Especially when posted way after the fact.
VOTE:!Chucklez!
vote:Kops723
vote:Loran16
vote:Kenji
vote:Arimnaes
vote:Absolutionis
vote:Treigit
vote:Passdog
vote:Machin Shin
vote:Mystery meat of doom
vote:Xyre
Vote:RafaelK
vote:Mosschop
vote:bluesoul
vote:Carrion pigeons
vote:silicon
Abandon Hope
MD
Cyan
aurorasparrow
Disrupt Your Hymn
Axelrod
Puzzle
CropCircles
Azrael
Krashbot101
Hawkeye7
Calvin & Hobbs Mafia, Mafia MVP
X-Men Mafia Town MVP
Simpson's Mafia - best use of character
Mtgnews Mafia Mafia - Town Madman
Mythos Mafia: the Dunwich Massacre Town MVP
English Literature Mafia Town MVP
Best Role-Playing Sin City Mafia
Werewolf Mafia - Mafia MVP
Doctor Mafia - Mafia MVP
Mafia: Escape from the Cylons - Town MVP
Lost Mafia - Co SK Winner with Kops
Random Mafia 3 - Town MVP
Just a note here: the scum already have far more access to pantheon-based knowledge than we do (unless they all come from a specific pantheon). They have 5-6 members, which might translate to 5-6 sources from which to draw claims. If they even need to false claim, that is. I suppose their first tendency might not be to claim Sammael, for instance, but there are plenty of societies whose Gods are...ambiguously good or evil, to say the least.
Vote Azrael.
Yes, I realize that it is very possible that the scum all come from different pantheons, there is no way to know this right now. However, the best thing for us to do is not throw out more pantheons - the scum have enough information from their own roles, and we don't need to add to it. Considering that there is a small chance that they are all from the same pantheon, we don't want to offer up free information to them.
It's annoying: Subjective. I apologize for annoying anyone. At the risk of sounding like chamber, I fear I must inform you that I plan to continue regardless.
It's reactive: This means nothing. Following by definition is reactive. I'm not excluding individual ideas, and the individual expression of those ideas. I think if someone has expressed valid points, it is valid to agree, act, and leave it at that. In short it is valid to follow if an appropriate idea is expressed. If alot of ideas make good sense, it is valid to follow alot.
I don't know if I'm following scum: Right. I don't. I have my suspicions, but I'm not sure. Regardless, if the idea is sound, I can follow. In the charade, mafia may act like townies, to the point of taking pro town actions. I support following them on those actions. It doesn't matter the source if the proposed action or idea is sound.
And where will you stand when he's wrong?
That's certainly interesting...
In any case, I have no worries...
Awaiting results...
Abso, start providing content, analysis and defense or I will vote you in 24 hours.
unvote
I still think Absolutionis should post content - and my vote may return there if he doesn't start, but I am now very wary of how big that wagon grew.
Mostly however I don't want my vote to contribute to a lynch when I haven't had a real chance to go back over the thread, and might not get a chance to respond till tomorrow.
---------------------------------------------
Abandon Hope is giving me some pretty weird vibes.
Is that the Royal 'we'? I didn't really like it how he put words into the mouth of the town.
I am going to have a look at the rest of his posts and see if they reveal anything.
Thanks.
Chucklez (1)- Hawkeye7
absolutionis (8)- Puzzle, krashbot, MMoD, aurorasparrow, Machin Shin, Abandon Hope, CropCircles, MD
Azrael (1)- Azrael
CropCircles (2)- Mosschop, Absolutionis
Kops723 (1)- Chucklez
krashbot (3)- arimnaes, rafaelk, treigit
MD (3)- cyan, xyre, kenji
Puzzle (1)- carrion pigeons
Treigit (2)- loran16, bluesoul
Not Voting (5)- kops723, silicon, DYH, axelrod, passdog
Updating first post
Unvote, Vote Krashbot
Vote stands for the moment.
Really? Let me check something.
*Krashbot101 gots into PBPA on the begining of the Abso wagon.*
*Vote count added*
Post 565 - DYH votes Abso saying he supports getting people to post. (2 votes)
Post 566 - silicon votes Abso saying he can get behind the wagon. (3 votes)
Post 567 - CropCircles votes Abso (not much reasoning) (4 votes)
Post 568 - Axelrod almost votes Abso (not sure if he this meant as a joke, FoS, or both)
Post 570 - AZ notes how it is really easy to force specific lurkers out in a game with this many lurkers.
Post 571 - A_H votes Abso saying he wants to help force out lurkers. (5 votes)
Post 573 - Abso makes a scummy looking post including no defense, and contraditcting itself (already discussed).
Post 575 - Puzzle quotes post 573 and asks (I think it was half-joke) if we can lynch him.
Post 576 - I say "Sounds good. ;)" (note the emoticon, this was a joke) and vote Abso saying I want to keep the pressure on him to keep talking and that his last post didn't look good. (6 votes)
Post 577 - MMoD notes a few scum tells in Abso's past two posts and hops on the wagon. (7 votes)
Posts 578-581 - Discussion about the speed of the wagon.
Post 582 - aurorasparrow votes Abso saying he looks really scummy (8 votes)
I'm gonna stop here because I think it proves my point.
Last I checked, being the 6th vote on a wagon was not even close to being the the second person on the wagon.
Also, I was in the middle of a pile of other people also voting Abso, not to mention that I didn't even vote until Abso responded in a rather scummy manner. In retrospect, the wagon did get moving really fast, but I the reasons for that have already been discussed, and I somehow doubt my vote there did anything to make it go faster (past adding a vote, of course).
If you would like to put up a reasonable case against me, I'll see what I can do to defend it.
Winner of the Weekly Signature & Avatar Contest Weeks 51, 59, 78, & 118.
I don't care if I was framed for murder if I only got a warning I would let it go.
Take note that some people, I don't have an opinion on.
Azrael = His inability to vote for anyone but himself makes me assume his ability must be moderately powerful considering his relative powerlessness in the voting process. I have an assumption that his true ability lies in something happening when he votes someone other than himself. A vigillante perhaps?
Puzzle = Very likely scum. His bandwagons gather immense speed, and in my case especially, Puzzle's intent was to perform a lynch rather than weed out a lurker. He constantly beckons other people to play the game as he wishes it. Overagressive, but that's the way I've seen him usually play.
Tregit = I once thought he was scum. Then he faded into the background with nobody else voting him except some stragglers that have not changed their votes yet. Correct me if I am incorrect. Maybe scum?
Hawkeye = That scumminess ranking chart confuses me. I'm unsure whether that's a voting restriction or not, seeing as how it's not always used. I may be inclined to believe moderate scum, if only for the fact that his list does not coincide with my listings of people at all.
Cyan = I have no idea what your ability is. Some clarification on what exactly you did would shed some light. From what I gather, your ability doesn't directly test for vanilla. You have some other ability that can somehow be used as a method for testing?
CropCircles = Very scummy. Actions have bee little more than votes with little reason. Hence, has my vote.
Abandon Hope = Scummy. Is willing to end the day too quickly and relies on others.
MD = Established newbie. Uses the newbie excuse far too often, but somehow it works, and for some reason I believe him. Worships Puzzle, and that bothers me. Most likely attributed to a newbie learning off an experienced behavior. Seeing as how I view Puzzle as scum, MD's adherence to Puzzle's word may become dangerous.
Aurorasparrow = Claimed doc, jokingly. I'm confused as to why he said that. Puzzle got angry at him for claiming doc as such, which makes me believe that Aurorasparrow and Puzzle aren't in the same league. I see AS as townie. Also, he's from the same series as me. I have no idea what this Glasswright series is. In fact, Wikipedia helps little. All I have is a list of Glasswright gods and their abilities and I work off of that.
!Chucklez! = Challenges Puzzle on many accounts, to which his challenge generally falls unnoticed. I'm leaning town on this one.
Xyre = General Town, no reason other than general vibes
Kenji = General Town despite focusing on MD much. MD may be scum.
The rest, I do not have an opinion on.
Anyway, I don't think that it's necessary to expose my ability at this time. I'm town, but, my ability isn't going to clear me, and it was never my intention to try and do so. People just seemed stuck on your claim, and I knew that I could concretely solve that, so, I did. I find it unlikely that any of the mafioso are vanilla, so, it looks like we avoided a mislynch, and I'm glad of that. Honestly, my ability isn't greatly useful anyway, this is probably the best use for it, heh.
It seems like you responded to everyone on your wagon..other than Krashbot...I'm interested in hearing your thoughts about him.
I did not comment on MMoD and Krashbot and Machin Shin because I have no opinion on them. I've reread their posts and still I do not wish to draw false conclusions for no other reason than forcing myself to draw an opinion.
Also, if you would care to actually make a case on me as opposed to just saying, "he hopped on the Abso wagon and did some other scummy stuff," I'd be happy to respond to it.
@Absolutionis: Finally, something other than "I give up, just lynch me, but know that I'm town." Thank you.
However, in the absence of a real defense/explanation for your actions, I find it very hard to unvote you (well, I could always go back to Treigit :D). As I believe I noted in my last post, Cyan verifying your vanillaness is a point in your favor, but it doesn't clear you, so I would still like a defense/explanation.
Winner of the Weekly Signature & Avatar Contest Weeks 51, 59, 78, & 118.
I don't care if I was framed for murder if I only got a warning I would let it go.
I'm willing to accept this for the time being. Neither of what Sparrow said of Cyan said "clears" you, but both independantly confirm different parts of what you said, which is more than we have for most people.
Personally, I dislike Tregit's reactions to both the claim, and what others said about it, so I'm happy to go back to a:
Vote: Tregit
Is there a way to get only a single person's posts listed in order? You can do it on GL and I suppose I'm spoiled on it because it is taking me forever just to research two people.
of its steep paths have a chance of gaining its luminous summits"
-Karl Heinrich Marx
Cube
Now watch someone else post an exact way to do it and make me look like an Idiot
EBWODP: Oh, and Limit/display results as posts, not threads.
of its steep paths have a chance of gaining its luminous summits"
-Karl Heinrich Marx
Cube