Well, actually, a quick search does show that D_M is the first person guilty of using the word (in the first post). Treigit himself is the first person to use it in a mechanical sense, actually using it to refer to people's roles.
What?! Look at the initial post; he is dead. Deceased. Kaputt. Indefinitely horizontal. In mafia games, you see, people are occasionally "killed off," and when that sad event occurs, he or she is no longer allowed to post, on account of rigor mortis and what-have-you.
'Welcome to Mafia Salvation', it said, 'Population: 3,660.' And someone, they never figured out who, had painted on the sign in red letters: '1,831 to lynch.'
I'm going to feel very silly if this wasn't the section I was supposed to respond to.
I think I need to clarify: I wanted you to make those same arguments in the context of the three paragraph's preceding those you addressed (without bolded words).
Quote from Abandon Hope »
What I'm arguing here is that we shouldn't assume anything based on DYH's action. But I'd like to point out that this is mafia. Assuming anyone is town or mafia from the begining is disaster.
The bolded part of this quote is what I understand you are basing your reasoning on. The earlier part of my post is explaining how that premise is not an appropriate philosophy for Mafia. Assumptions have to be made - they are a requisite part of the process of outing scum. You must have a way to differentiate Townies from scum, so you make assumptions based on their actions.
The first three paragraphs of my post are intended to show how your initial premise is wrong (in my view of Mafia) and how the view expressed by cp and myself is actually consistent.
---------------------------------
Absolutionis's post is a new strike against him - he hasn't really tried to present why any of those players should be considered suspicious.
EBWODP: Oh, and just as CP has done, I'll also say that my PM doesn't use the word Pantheon, nor is my role connected with the amount of gods in a pantheon/group/anything.
Well I suppose the first thing that hit me, was his small bit on AH at the end of post 743, with the small bit on his usage of 'we'. Though the post he quotes does have one instance of a questionable usage of 'we', I dislike attacks based on a single instance of a questionable word.
Quote from Disrupt_Your_Hymn »
Post 992:Why has passdog not hit your scum lists at any point before?
How can you tell when he hit my scum list, especially when you asked the question of when my first suspicions began? From the time he joined the game, up until I mentioned that I didn't think he was townish, I never posted my scum list.
Quote from Disrupt_Your_Hymn »
Do you think Cyan's vanilla confirmation was the main factor? Do you think it's something else?
I think the vanilla confirmation was a fair contributor, but I'm astounded that so many jumped off so quickly.
Quote from Azrael »
Any comments, Sili?
Sili? I've gotten the nickname Sili now? Wonderful
@Puzzle: Unfortunately, the game in question is still in progress. It is the other game I referenced when discussing that this was, in fact, not MD_'s first game. Suffice it to say I've found his behavior here to be strikingly similar in some aspects (spammy, somewhat juvenile), but the manner in which he handled pressure was completely different (plea for help on proving townieness vs. calling out opposition). I don't think I can say much more.
As much as I dislike this play from a gamesmanship standpoint (wording games to me are against the spirit of forum mafia), others have already answered, so I'll state that my PM does not mention Pantheons.
We need Chucklez to come back and answer some questions before anyone else claims anything. That would be the prudent way to do this.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
@Passdog:
I think my position on the first three paragraphs could be extrapolated from my position on the last three. I chose to directly answer the last three because it's easier to demonstrate based on the specific instance. But I'll give you my opinions on the first three paragraphs.
Quote from Passdog »
The goal of mafia (and in particular day 1) is to use the actions of other players to guage their alignment. The nature of the game forces us to deductively determine the alignment of other players.
How could I disagree with this? Moving on.
Quote from Passdog »
Sometimes we get certain proof of another players alignment and our decisions are made easily; the rest of the time we base our deductions on assumptions that concern standards of town and scum behaviour and those behaviours as displayed by other players.
Standards would be the disagreement here. We can't judge an action just because it's traditionally, standardly, a town action. There are varaibles. These sets of standards exist, and as a result both townies and scum seek to manipulate their actions to gain most from these standards. Standards mask intent. If one foregoes the standards entirely and evaluates based on percieved goals, one has a more accurate view. I base this view on the relation between actions of multiple and individual players. In short I attempt to reinvent the wheel based on the road I travel, rather than use the generally accepted shape. This may seem like a dumb idea, but remember, a square wheel provides a smooth ride if the road is right. Because of this not only do I disagree with standards in relation to certain players on an individual basis, but often with a standard in general.
An example of this philosophy is Chucklez recent claim. I've already said what I feel are it's strengths and weaknesses. Now it's time to decide what chucklez is attempting to do with his claim. I can't just evaluate his claim in a vacume, decide whether it's a scum or town tell, and chalk it on a tally list. His claim has to be examined in light of both his actions and others actions. Which is one of the reasons I havn't decided yet.
Quote from Passdog »
You make 'x' actions others recognise as scum tells and I assume you are scum until otherwise convinced (either by conclusive proof or by arguments used to defend your own or others assumptions about you as a player). Such assumptions are based on the evidence presented at any one time and are thus subject to change.
Right. Same issue as above. I'm not going to recognise a certain action is a certain kind of tell because others view it that way. I'll make up my own mind. And based on my experiences, I'll decide whether I feel that standard is correct, both for this instance, and as a general rule. I'm actually worried that you'd base your opinion of scum on others reactions to said tells. But I'm not sure that's what you were trying to say.
I found a net cafe, but I'm almost out of time, haven't read all the thread, or thotoughly, but I want to say my PM doesn't contain the word pantheon. I had no reason to expect pantheon related abilities.
very happy with my vote on chucklez right now (unless the last 40 ish posts have new revelations)
This is what Chucklez first said when I brought up the idea of people claiming if they were Glasswright or not. Remember, of all the people playing (if he's town), he knows for a fact that Pantheon claiming of any kind could be detrimental--after all, the more Greek Gods that go out, the worse his ability gets. Theoretically.
Quote from !Chucklez! »
Just read the bit from today about the Glasswright plan. I simply don't see it being very helpful to the Town. We don't gain any info that is particularly usefull, and I don't think it will help catch scum at all. Given the sheer number of false claims out there for this partucular game I think chances for us to actually catch scum in name-claim traps will be virtually non-existant.
Also, whats with so many people viewing at 4 in the morning? @_@ Get some sleep guys.
So that's not entirely inconsistent. He doesn't support the idea (which he shouldn't), but it seems he's doing it for the wrong reasons. His basis for non-support is that it won't be helpful catching scum. That there are too many possibly false claims out there. One would think that (considering his inside knowledge) he would be floating the idea that Pantheon claiming could be actively harmful, not just useless. Because he knows it could.
And then this:
Quote from !Chucklez! »
Axelrod: I can think of some ways in which claiming "Glasswright or non" could be detrimental to the Town, but as has been stated already I think they go beyond the realm of probability, and into paranoia. I simply don't think that there is really any kind of chance we could turn such a claim into a Town advantage, given the astounding number of false claims available, and so view this as a gamble with no payoff. Simply put, we have bad pot odds on this one, to little to gain and to much to lose.
Now he says he can think of some ways claiming could be detrimental, but think they go beyond the realms of probability and into realms of paranoia. What?
If his role is what he says it is, it's not only NOT improbable that Pantheon claiming could be detrimental, it's practically a certainty.
I do not understand this response. It does not follow considering his claimed role.
Vote will stand.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Sorry about the "claim and run" last night. I was on my parents' computer which is unbearable. I didn't see your question, and appeared to be logged in for the same reason, her computer is slow as hell. It likely took at least 5 minutes for it to log everything off and shutdown when I turned it off. :-(
Now, to answer your question, no I did not recieve an exact number of players in my Pantheon, nor do I know exactly what the percent change is for each one left.
As for the Glasswrite claiming comments, I don't think they really are all that inconsistant. Say my ability had been reliant on Glasswrite characters, and we had all claimed Glasswrite or not. Obviously when it came time for me to claim I would simply ommit the fact that killing Glasswrite hurt my ability, and simply claim Faith Healer. I remember running through that logic when I made the post, and concluding that there was little way that such a claim could put the Town in an unavoidable loss.
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"There is no royal road to science, and only those who do not dread the fatiguing climb
of its steep paths have a chance of gaining its luminous summits"
-Karl Heinrich Marx Cube
I hate Chucklez's claim. Its not a doc so its hard to counterclaim, but percentage-based abilities (especially doc) are so easy to fake. And as the game progresses, the ability gets weaker, making it similarily hard to confirm.
unvote, fos chucklez. I don't know what to do about him.
I think Axelrod is onto something with Chucklez responses to the Glasswright claiming. A townie Chucklez would know for certain that exposing who belongs to specific pantheons would actively hurt the town in at least one case, most likely more, and he said nothing about it.
Quote from !Chucklez! »
I remember running through that logic when I made the post, and concluding that there was little way that such a claim could put the Town in an unavoidable loss.
The problem I have with this is that, again, by leaving out that little tidbit about how name claims could seriously hurt the town by making one doc role weaker, you do hurt the town. Maybe it's not an "unavoidable loss" but I certainly like our chances better with multiple docs that don't cripple themselves, thank you very much. Vote stands.
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"Flesh so fine, so fine to tear, to gash the skin; skin to strip, to plait, so nice to plait the strips, so nice, so red the drops that fall; blood so red, so red, so sweet; sweet screams, pretty screams, singing screams, scream your song, sing your screams…” - The Eye of the World - Robert Jordan
I'm actually a little more interested in MD for this recent development, but I still think Chuck is the lynch. Even if he has an ability that's based off the number of Gods left in a Pantheon, it could be a scum ability that he just changed to a doc role.
I'm actually a little more interested in MD for this recent development, but I still think Chuck is the lynch. Even if he has an ability that's based off the number of Gods left in a Pantheon, it could be a scum ability that he just changed to a doc role.
!?!
How on earth is this a valid attack?
Every time I think we've settled on a lynch, someone does something like this and I can't believe that a townie would do something so totally scummy. First Puzzle, then AH, then Chuck, then you. Maybe we have two mafia?
What?! Look at the initial post; he is dead. Deceased. Kaputt. Indefinitely horizontal. In mafia games, you see, people are occasionally "killed off," and when that sad event occurs, he or she is no longer allowed to post, on account of rigor mortis and what-have-you.
'Welcome to Mafia Salvation', it said, 'Population: 3,660.' And someone, they never figured out who, had painted on the sign in red letters: '1,831 to lynch.'
I should have already left for work, but I wanted to leave something along those lines. At the least, should we have some debate on the dangers of claiming whether the word Pantheon is in your role PM or not is a good idea? Possible night-role exposure and such?
Look, I'm not gonna lie here. This is getting ridiculous and at this point I am pretty much willing to wagon anybody but the flimsiest of cases (which at this point consists only of A_H who I refuse to wagon) just to get the day over with. Chucklez has 1 post to answer questions before I vote him if he hasn't convinced me otherwise.
I found a net cafe, but I'm almost out of time, haven't read all the thread, or thotoughly, but I want to say my PM doesn't contain the word pantheon. I had no reason to expect pantheon related abilities.
O RLY?
Treigit or Chuckles, Treigit or Chuckles...
Personally, I think Treigit's the more likely liar here. I don't believe in coincidences quite that big, I think some people are grasping to put the Chuckles wagon over the top (hi CC!), and Treigit using the word pantheon and fishing for pantheon information in this situation is just too big a coincidence.
For the record, I find it hard to grasp that people seem to be acting like Chuckles should have hinted at his role in his arguments against the Glasswright claim. That's exactly the sort of thing that scum would be looking out for in that kind of argument, people giving away that they have inside knowledge. He was on the side of the argument consistent with his claim, that's enough. That part of his story, at any rate, works for me.
I'm not willing to vote Treigit based on that, but I'll agree that this situation is making Chuck look better. I'll happily keep my vote on AH for the time being.
What?! Look at the initial post; he is dead. Deceased. Kaputt. Indefinitely horizontal. In mafia games, you see, people are occasionally "killed off," and when that sad event occurs, he or she is no longer allowed to post, on account of rigor mortis and what-have-you.
'Welcome to Mafia Salvation', it said, 'Population: 3,660.' And someone, they never figured out who, had painted on the sign in red letters: '1,831 to lynch.'
Personally, I think Treigit's the more likely liar here. I don't believe in coincidences quite that big, I think some people are grasping to put the Chuckles wagon over the top (hi CC!), and Treigit using the word pantheon and fishing for pantheon information in this situation is just too big a coincidence.
For the record, I find it hard to grasp that people seem to be acting like Chuckles should have hinted at his role in his arguments against the Glasswright claim. That's exactly the sort of thing that scum would be looking out for in that kind of argument, people giving away that they have inside knowledge. He was on the side of the argument consistent with his claim, that's enough. That part of his story, at any rate, works for me.
vote Treigit
You realize I got off the Treigit wagon because at this point it's a dead vote, right? You might as well vote yourself. We've got, what, four days till deadline. I don't see the other votes piling on.
Nobody interested in knowing if MD lied with his "what kind of mod would make a newbie scum anyway", apart from Mosschop ?
Didn't I say that like 1,000 posts ago? When I said it, I was under the assumption that D_M wouldn't make a complete newb scum. Out of the billion newb things I've said, you focus on that? I question your ability at logical thought.
Have we finally narrowed it down to A_H, Treigit, or Chuck? We should be able to narrow it down to one before the deadline.
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Other thought about Chucklez :
- SK / anti-town neutral claiming doc makes 0 sense. I can see only a mafioso here.
- if there is no other Glasswright character than AS in the game, his claim is probably a lie. I kind of doubt he'd take this risk but in any case, the best move is to leave him until closer to the end :
a. His presence, if town, is a must-kill for scums. He is likely to die at night. Let's not waste a lynch to do the scums' job.
b. More Glasswright roles would tend to confirm his story. Let's let the game flow go on and revise later, once more roles are revealed.
My vote for lynch will very probably be MD or Abso.
IGMEOY, Axelrod.
You realize that Abso claimed Glasswright before AS did, right?
What?! Look at the initial post; he is dead. Deceased. Kaputt. Indefinitely horizontal. In mafia games, you see, people are occasionally "killed off," and when that sad event occurs, he or she is no longer allowed to post, on account of rigor mortis and what-have-you.
'Welcome to Mafia Salvation', it said, 'Population: 3,660.' And someone, they never figured out who, had painted on the sign in red letters: '1,831 to lynch.'
Show me where you acquired this information, Puzzle. If you are referring to Verbal's game on MTGNews, you would be wrong, as you have no evidence of me saying I trust Verbal's ability to host a mafia game. I also find it humorous how many times you've begged for a full claim, and that request will continue to be ignored. There is no wagon on me at the moment.
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1. As a lurker Chuckles was attempting one of two things.
As town he was attempting to stay under the radar for a number of reasons. Either he didn't trust himself to be seen in a townie light, or he was attempting to keep a power role under the radar, or he just forgot post.
As mafia we must assume he was trying to minimize his tells and visability.
2. Chucklez PBPA was slanted. I don't think anyone disagrees there. He approached it from the perspective that Treigit was scum, and attempted to make the facts support the conclusion.
This could be a townie action. We have no way of knowing what Chucklez knows. But his claim has not stated extra knowledge about Treigit. So if he was town, he had no reason to try and paint Treigit scummy besides his observations. We don't know those observations because anything he posts is already slanted.
As mafia Chucklez is attempting to create a mislynch.
3. Chucklez claim could be intended to benefit town or mafia.
As a town role Chucklez is telling the truth, mostly, and trusting that we preserve a valuable role.
As mafia Chucklez is fishing for a counter claim, expecting to be unclaimed, and hoping for at least partial clearance through claiming a pro town role.
These are the three events I find significant in Chucklez play. Each can be seen as either scum or town roles depending on you
The dichotomy between Chucklez the townie during his PBPA is this. Lurking he either doesn't trust himself, the town or is disintrested. During the PBPA he doesn't trust the town to come to the best conclusion, his conclusion. His slanted PBPA demonstrates a desire This matches with second reason for lurking. It doesn't match the first or the third because a detailed PBPA demonstrates both intrest and confidence. Chucklez third action demonstrates complete trust in the towns decision, or a lack of interest in participation. He presents his information and leaves it at that. This is incompatible with his previous attitude towards the town. (this could be explained by posting on his parents computer. However when he returned he did not attempt to slant either his claim or the town's decision, so my point stands). In short, a townie Chuckles does not add up. His attitude towards the game, and the town shifts radically.
Chucklez as mafia makes more sense. Lurking to avoid attention, an attack on an individual based on little evidence, and claiming a role obscure in ability yet valuable to the town all benifit a mafia player.
Chuckles as scum represents a cohesive player. Chucklez as town represents a player with rapidly changing thought processes and attitudes. Therefor I find Chuckles far more likely to be mafia. Unote, Vote: Chucklez.
Note1: I am not a fool (I hope). I saw what happened when Chucklez wagoned me, and I expected the same reaction to my vote on him. I took some time to organize my thoughts. I can only hope my explaination satisfies.
Note2: I myself am guilty of a slanted attack on bluesoul at one point, in my zeal to bring the town into my opinion. The point is that this mistake can be made by townies. The degree Chucklez demonstrated in his mistake far excedes both my own and what I am willing to write of as a townie mistake. Which is why a feel comfortable making it a main point in my decision to vote Chuckles.
Note3: This is not intended to convince others, but as an explaination of my own actions. Hence the lack of quotations and examples.
Why is no one bothered by the fact that MD received a scum role a day or two before posting
Because nobody is interested in your one-man war against me? *shrug*
Keep in mind I said that under extreme distress. I wasn't doubting it was possible. Rather that it was extremely unlikely, and would be a poor move on his part. For the record, I think that D_M is doing a fine job so far. Seems like he put a lot of work into the game, and is keeping up with vote counts semi-regularly.
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Maybe you were under extreme duress because you're scum and were panicking..that last statement really didn't help you at all. I'd probably move my vote, if not for the deadline.
Maybe you were under extreme duress because you're scum and were panicking..that last statement really didn't help you at all. I'd probably move my vote, if not for the deadline.
Or maybe I was excited to play my first real Mafia game, and the idea of getting lynched within the first five minutes was a real downer? I think MD knows MD better than Cyan knows MD
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@ A_H :
- What do you think of MD's #170, in the light that he had been issued a scum role a couple of days before ?
- Why is Chucklez a better lynch than Abso ?
@ All :
Why is no one bothered by the fact that MD received a scum role a day or two before posting #170 ?
Chucklez is a better lynch than abso because I've taken the time to examine the direction of Chucklez play, and found it wanting. I am convinced Chucklez is scum.
Abso on the other hand did some strange things, strange and confusing enough to make me vote him. But time has passed and I havn't noticed him trying to take negitve advantage of the chaos he spawned. So I'm ok to keep watching.
About MD? Oh, I'm bothered by it. Very bothered by it. LAL is a good rule. Frankly, I don't think that we can look at him before the deadine. And now we've discovered scum, at least I think so. And the two of us aren't the only ones who are convinced Chucklez is scum. We have a chance of lynching scum here. Now isn't the time for shenanigans. If you're really convinced Chucklez isn't scum, stop distracting us with MD and defend Chucklez. There are two ways I'll get on an MD bandwagon before tomorrow. You convince me Chucklez isn't scum, or enough people join your wagon that I beleive there's a chance of forcing and evaluating a claim before the deadline.
@DM: I request an extention of the deadline to resolve a number of issues created by the size of the day.
I also find it humorous how many times you've begged for a full claim, and that request will continue to be ignored. There is no wagon on me at the moment.
Quote from MD »
Because nobody is interested in your one-man war against me? *shrug*
Okay, what the hell dude. You can't keep making arrogant, even condescending statements like this, and still be expected to be taken at all seriously when you say stuff like this:
Quote from MD »
Puzzle's main point seems to be my newbiness (or lack thereof). I'm sorry I didn't become a genius mafia strategist from a handful of twenty minute AIM games when I was 14
Second, if you lied to us, you lied to us. Stop trying to mince words. Call it a hunch, but I'm going to unvote, vote MD. Don't get me wrong, I still think Chucklez is likely scum, but if he's mafia, he's made himself a juicy target for the SK. And, on the off chance he's town, his ability could be useful.
I support at least getting a full claim from MD (as he's already nameclaimed.)
Quote from Cyan »
I'd probably move my vote, if not for the deadline.
There are five days and a bunch of hours until deadline. I'd say, put your money where your mouth is.
Quote from Puzzle »
I don't have a great deal of confidence in !C!, but when a whole town looks eager to lynch a claimed doc over a vanilla who looks easily as scummy to me, that makes me want to think twice. Additionally, I'd consider that if we have 5 Glasswright characters, his claim may seem reasonable.
When you say Glasswright, you do mean Greek, right? It's Abso and AS who've claimed glasswright gods, Chucklez claimed the Greek god of peace.
Let me put it simply :
- someone claims to be a newbie and uses the newbie defense as much as possible.
- we learn he played on AIM before, which he conveniently eluded from his newbie defense.
You see no problem here ?
He uses the newb defense to the max, but the mannerisms in which it comes out strike me as classic natural reactions, which he would have had to put a good deal of effort and study into feigning.
Quote from Puzzle »
- someone is a newbie (or claims to be).
- he is given a scum role in a game.
- two days later, he defends himself with the argument that no mod would give a scum role to a newbie.
Still no problem ?
I see that more as a logic error than a scum error. He was trying to clear himself by whatever means he can at that point, whether he's town or scum.
@Puzzle: I think there are some pretty distinct differences in his (MD_'s) playstyle between that game and this one. Couple that with his name claim, and this is one wagon I will not be joining.
On Chucklez: I don't like the idea of voting off a claimed doctor-type role, but I'm having some issues with the flavor of his claim.
Quote from Pantheon.org »
The Horae (the Hours) are the goddesses of the seasons (the Greek had only three seasons; spring, summer and winter), and the daughters of Zeus and Themis. They are called Thallo, Auxo and Carpo, names which denote budding, growth and ripening. Later, as Eunomia ("good order"), Dike ("justice") and Eirene ("peace") they represented law and order in society. As goddesses of nature they controlled the growth of plants; as goddesses of order they maintained the stability of society.
On one hand, I can see the legitimacy to linking his ability to the remaining Greek gods- Eirene was a part of a larger group, the Horae. However, I don't see anything in here that leads me to the logical conclusion that this goddess would have a healing/protective role.
Of course, DM warned us about this, but in all the research I did across the net the description was similar.
Quote from mod »
6. If a deadline is reached with no majority achieved there will be no lynch.
We're running out of time and this is a situation we need to avoid. We really need to come to a consensus.
For the record, I find it hard to grasp that people seem to be acting like Chuckles should have hinted at his role in his arguments against the Glasswright claim. That's exactly the sort of thing that scum would be looking out for in that kind of argument, people giving away that they have inside knowledge. He was on the side of the argument consistent with his claim, that's enough. That part of his story, at any rate, works for me.
Raf, did you even read Chucklez response to my post? I criticized him because he took a position which was not consistant with his role information. Originally he agreed with me that it was highly improbable, going into the realms of paranoia (he said), that a claim of the type I was suggesting (Glasswright Gods) would hurt the town. Then later he makes a claim which, if true, demonstrates clearly a way in which that kind of claim could be very detrimental. You want to credit him with being sneaky? With deliberately being misleading as to the basis of his objections?
I pointed out my problems with his responses. This is what he said:
Quote from !Chucklez! »
Now, to answer your question, no I did not recieve an exact number of players in my Pantheon, nor do I know exactly what the percent change is for each one left.
As for the Glasswrite claiming comments, I don't think they really are all that inconsistant. Say my ability had been reliant on Glasswrite characters, and we had all claimed Glasswrite or not. Obviously when it came time for me to claim I would simply ommit the fact that killing Glasswrite hurt my ability, and simply claim Faith Healer. I remember running through that logic when I made the post, and concluding that there was little way that such a claim could put the Town in an unavoidable loss.
So he is trying to say that the reason he thought that the partial claiming wouldn't be harmful was because if his ability had been dependant on the number of Glasswright Gods (or conversely, had I been asking people to claim if they were Greek Gods or not) he would simply have lied about the weakness/limitation of his ability.
Hey, Chucklez, why didn't you "lie" now? I mean, why didn't you simply claim "Faith Healer" as you said you would have. Instead, you have apparently full claimed and revealed this significant piece of information, which you would have been willing to conceal except...what? The fact that no one else has claimed Greek God yet? So that makes it not harmful?
The only way I would have seen this as believable would have been if it were flavor based in some way, such as dependant on the number of other Horae--not simply all Greek Gods--or even a communal type ability, such as DM had in his last game. Your answer, however, appears to exclude either of those possibilities. Leaving you with a role that you yourself don't even know the worth of, and can't evaluate. It's like DM said, each night you can try to protect someone if you feel like it, but you have no idea if it does any good?
And, incidentally, one that doesn't make any sense flavor-wise, but I am not going to push that argument too much.
Quote from Puzzle »
Other thought about Chucklez :
- SK / anti-town neutral claiming doc makes 0 sense. I can see only a mafioso here.
- if there is no other Glasswright character than AS in the game, his claim is probably a lie. I kind of doubt he'd take this risk but in any case, the best move is to leave him until closer to the end :
a. His presence, if town, is a must-kill for scums. He is likely to die at night. Let's not waste a lynch to do the scums' job.
b. More Glasswright roles would tend to confirm his story. Let's let the game flow go on and revise later, once more roles are revealed.
My vote for lynch will very probably be MD or Abso.
IGMEOY, Axelrod.
Aside from your confusion about who already claimed what, you appear to be wrong.
a) he is far from a "must-kill" for scums. His ability, if true, gets worse with every other Greek God who dies. Why does this make him so dangerous?
b) more "Greek" Gods would not confirm anything? Too few Greek Gods would tend to disprove the claim, as it wouldn't make sense to have an ability that depended on the Number of other Greek Gods unless there were at least 3 or so. But more doesn't "prove" anything. If he were completely false-claiming, Greek would be the one to pick because they are the most popular/well known/likely to be in the game. If he had said his ability depended on the number of Gods from some lesser known Pantheon, that might have meant something.
I've been ignoring the MD situation. Haven't been able to get invested. You can correct me if I'm wrong, Puzzle, but you are basically saying that because MD said he didn't think DM would give a complete newbie a scum role and because: (1) he wasn't actually a complete newbie, and (2) he had actually received a scum role before, that he's clearly lying, and therefore scum. I'm not sure this is the smoking gun you seem to think it is. Clearly it's less compelling than my own point about Chucklez .
I think I wrote MD off early because of a comment by CropCircles, which didn't make any sense for him to have said without some kind of inside knowledge that MD was town.
Quote from CropCircles in post #229 »
I'm very strongly reading MD as non-mafia, and I do feel that pushing him further is only going to cause him to get more upset and dig himself into a hole. Treigit's the one who needs pressure(for reason's stated by DYH).
Quote from CropCircles in post #281 »
I cannot stress enough how strongly I am reading MD as non-mafia. If I had some kind of day-ability this game, I already would have used it.
What does that mean if he doesn't have inside info? It doesn't make any sense at all is what it means. You feel so strongly that he is not mafia that if you had a day-inspect (like you had in Star Trek) you would already have used it? Why would you inspect someone you thought was town? That really just doesn't follow. So I assumed you knew something. But now you say this:
Quote from CropCircles »
I'm actually a little more interested in MD for this recent development, but I still think Chuck is the lynch. Even if he has an ability that's based off the number of Gods left in a Pantheon, it could be a scum ability that he just changed to a doc role.
Which appears to toss that idea out the window. And makes me wonder what you were smoking when you posted before about MD. Hmmmm.
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Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Hmm, OK, I believe I had a momentary lapse in judgement with the last point. Puzzle and Arim. bring up good points. I've decided lynching !C! is a bad idea because it is unlikely he will survive the night. Even if the mafia tries to frame him by killing someone else, I see absolutely no reason why the SK wouldn't want to kill him, nor do I see a good reason for a pro-town protective role to try to save him (as it will create confusion and may well end with a mislynch). So if he survives the night, then we should definately be revisiting him.
With that said, I think I'm willing to join the Abso wagon because with deadline approaching, I think a vanilla mislynch is better than a power mislynch, and theres a good chance he's scum anyway.
Looking at each current wagon:
!C!/abso, see above
MD: Totally disagree with, and I'll add this one to the list of wagons I refuse to join. Puzzle's arguments are so weak and are attacking things that really mean almost nothing. I don't care if he's been a newbie scum before, that doesn't mean that he can't say that it would be poor judgement on the mod's part to make him scum now. And lets just say for a moment that he is scum. What makes him any more likely to make that statement than if he were town?? Nothing. In fact, I'd say that statement is more likely coming from a townie perspective than a scum perspective, however pathetic of a defense it may be.
A_H: And what's the case here again? Is there a case here? Not joining.
Treigit: Looong standing bandwagon here, and while I may not totally agree with it, I'll be willing to join it if it will make this day end. The #1 argument I have against this wagon is that it will extract another claim which we do not want. Because of this, I think we need to focus on one of the 3 people who have already claimed, at least in part.
So those 3 people are: Abso, !C!, MD. I've stated my case.
EBWODP: Dangit I need to start previewing... well anyway, Axelrod brings up good points, but I still belive that !C! is a day 2 or later lynch, not a day 1 lynch, though Axel's reasoning definately brings him up a notch or 2 in my scum books.
Hmm, OK, I believe I had a momentary lapse in judgement with the last point. Puzzle and Arim. bring up good points. I've decided lynching !C! is a bad idea because it is unlikely he will survive the night. Even if the mafia tries to frame him by killing someone else, I see absolutely no reason why the SK wouldn't want to kill him, nor do I see a good reason for a pro-town protective role to try to save him (as it will create confusion and may well end with a mislynch). So if he survives the night, then we should definately be revisiting him.
AAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Puzzle's attack is so terrible. If you honestly think that a couple AIM games FOUR OR FIVE YEARS AGO, that only lasted 15 minutes a piece, with a bunch of guys who have been banned from Mtgnews for flaming is experience, then you need to check a dictionary.
Furthermore, I never said it wasn't possible to be a newb scum, I just said it was a bad move. That is not a lie. Why do you keep twisting this? You have no point here.
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The 'logic' behind your statement that it's a 'bad move' for a newb to be scum is so ridiculously faulty...actually, I'd say that it's non-existant, and I'm tired of you bringing it up as a 'defense' for yourself.
Also, stop acting like you have no experience whatsoever. You were in Werewolf Mafia on news, and in Classic Horror Mafia on News. Just because you can't stay in a game past Day 1 doesn't mean you can claim to be a newb for eternity.
You were in Werewolf Mafia on news, and in Classic Horror Mafia on News.
This started before them. EOTFOFIW.
With the deadline looming, you guys try and defer the town from it's course. Explain why the "MD thing" can't be revisited some other time? Chuck, Treigit, and A_H have been close to having their wagons topple over, and the lot of you are ruining the town's tempo. That's a poor play.
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EBWODP: Cyan, you banned me from News before CHM even started. We weren't even past the first page or so when I had to be replaced. Maybe Cyan should be examined for his straight up lies.
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With the deadline looming, you guys try and defer the town from it's course. Explain why the "MD thing" can't be revisited some other time? Chuck, Treigit, and A_H have been close to having their wagons topple over, and the lot of you are ruining the town's tempo. That's a poor play.
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I think I need to clarify: I wanted you to make those same arguments in the context of the three paragraph's preceding those you addressed (without bolded words).
The bolded part of this quote is what I understand you are basing your reasoning on. The earlier part of my post is explaining how that premise is not an appropriate philosophy for Mafia. Assumptions have to be made - they are a requisite part of the process of outing scum. You must have a way to differentiate Townies from scum, so you make assumptions based on their actions.
The first three paragraphs of my post are intended to show how your initial premise is wrong (in my view of Mafia) and how the view expressed by cp and myself is actually consistent.
---------------------------------
Absolutionis's post is a new strike against him - he hasn't really tried to present why any of those players should be considered suspicious.
----------------------------------
Haven't got round to MD yet.
D_M using it makes me more likely to believe Chuckles, all else being equal.
Treigit being the first makes me say: What does your PM say about Pantheons, Treigit?
Well I suppose the first thing that hit me, was his small bit on AH at the end of post 743, with the small bit on his usage of 'we'. Though the post he quotes does have one instance of a questionable usage of 'we', I dislike attacks based on a single instance of a questionable word.
How can you tell when he hit my scum list, especially when you asked the question of when my first suspicions began? From the time he joined the game, up until I mentioned that I didn't think he was townish, I never posted my scum list.
I think the vanilla confirmation was a fair contributor, but I'm astounded that so many jumped off so quickly.
Sili? I've gotten the nickname Sili now? Wonderful
As much as I dislike this play from a gamesmanship standpoint (wording games to me are against the spirit of forum mafia), others have already answered, so I'll state that my PM does not mention Pantheons.
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Has A_H claimed? If not, do we want a claim from him before we make a decision?
Nice simulpost.
I think my position on the first three paragraphs could be extrapolated from my position on the last three. I chose to directly answer the last three because it's easier to demonstrate based on the specific instance. But I'll give you my opinions on the first three paragraphs. How could I disagree with this? Moving on. Standards would be the disagreement here. We can't judge an action just because it's traditionally, standardly, a town action. There are varaibles. These sets of standards exist, and as a result both townies and scum seek to manipulate their actions to gain most from these standards. Standards mask intent. If one foregoes the standards entirely and evaluates based on percieved goals, one has a more accurate view. I base this view on the relation between actions of multiple and individual players. In short I attempt to reinvent the wheel based on the road I travel, rather than use the generally accepted shape. This may seem like a dumb idea, but remember, a square wheel provides a smooth ride if the road is right. Because of this not only do I disagree with standards in relation to certain players on an individual basis, but often with a standard in general.
An example of this philosophy is Chucklez recent claim. I've already said what I feel are it's strengths and weaknesses. Now it's time to decide what chucklez is attempting to do with his claim. I can't just evaluate his claim in a vacume, decide whether it's a scum or town tell, and chalk it on a tally list. His claim has to be examined in light of both his actions and others actions. Which is one of the reasons I havn't decided yet. Right. Same issue as above. I'm not going to recognise a certain action is a certain kind of tell because others view it that way. I'll make up my own mind. And based on my experiences, I'll decide whether I feel that standard is correct, both for this instance, and as a general rule. I'm actually worried that you'd base your opinion of scum on others reactions to said tells. But I'm not sure that's what you were trying to say.
@Arimnaes: I have not claimed.
very happy with my vote on chucklez right now (unless the last 40 ish posts have new revelations)
So that's not entirely inconsistent. He doesn't support the idea (which he shouldn't), but it seems he's doing it for the wrong reasons. His basis for non-support is that it won't be helpful catching scum. That there are too many possibly false claims out there. One would think that (considering his inside knowledge) he would be floating the idea that Pantheon claiming could be actively harmful, not just useless. Because he knows it could.
And then this:
Now he says he can think of some ways claiming could be detrimental, but think they go beyond the realms of probability and into realms of paranoia. What?
If his role is what he says it is, it's not only NOT improbable that Pantheon claiming could be detrimental, it's practically a certainty.
I do not understand this response. It does not follow considering his claimed role.
Vote will stand.
Now, to answer your question, no I did not recieve an exact number of players in my Pantheon, nor do I know exactly what the percent change is for each one left.
As for the Glasswrite claiming comments, I don't think they really are all that inconsistant. Say my ability had been reliant on Glasswrite characters, and we had all claimed Glasswrite or not. Obviously when it came time for me to claim I would simply ommit the fact that killing Glasswrite hurt my ability, and simply claim Faith Healer. I remember running through that logic when I made the post, and concluding that there was little way that such a claim could put the Town in an unavoidable loss.
of its steep paths have a chance of gaining its luminous summits"
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unvote, fos chucklez. I don't know what to do about him.
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23: 26.3%
24: 25.5%
25: 25.1%
26: 25.3%
The problem I have with this is that, again, by leaving out that little tidbit about how name claims could seriously hurt the town by making one doc role weaker, you do hurt the town. Maybe it's not an "unavoidable loss" but I certainly like our chances better with multiple docs that don't cripple themselves, thank you very much. Vote stands.
[The Family]
!?!
How on earth is this a valid attack?
Every time I think we've settled on a lynch, someone does something like this and I can't believe that a townie would do something so totally scummy. First Puzzle, then AH, then Chuck, then you. Maybe we have two mafia?
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I should have already left for work, but I wanted to leave something along those lines. At the least, should we have some debate on the dangers of claiming whether the word Pantheon is in your role PM or not is a good idea? Possible night-role exposure and such?
Vote Azrael.
O RLY?
Treigit or Chuckles, Treigit or Chuckles...
Personally, I think Treigit's the more likely liar here. I don't believe in coincidences quite that big, I think some people are grasping to put the Chuckles wagon over the top (hi CC!), and Treigit using the word pantheon and fishing for pantheon information in this situation is just too big a coincidence.
For the record, I find it hard to grasp that people seem to be acting like Chuckles should have hinted at his role in his arguments against the Glasswright claim. That's exactly the sort of thing that scum would be looking out for in that kind of argument, people giving away that they have inside knowledge. He was on the side of the argument consistent with his claim, that's enough. That part of his story, at any rate, works for me.
vote Treigit
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You realize I got off the Treigit wagon because at this point it's a dead vote, right? You might as well vote yourself. We've got, what, four days till deadline. I don't see the other votes piling on.
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Didn't I say that like 1,000 posts ago? When I said it, I was under the assumption that D_M wouldn't make a complete newb scum. Out of the billion newb things I've said, you focus on that? I question your ability at logical thought.
Have we finally narrowed it down to A_H, Treigit, or Chuck? We should be able to narrow it down to one before the deadline.
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You realize that Abso claimed Glasswright before AS did, right?
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Well, I suppose I should begin every Mafia game by saying whether or not I trust the mod.
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As town he was attempting to stay under the radar for a number of reasons. Either he didn't trust himself to be seen in a townie light, or he was attempting to keep a power role under the radar, or he just forgot post.
As mafia we must assume he was trying to minimize his tells and visability.
2. Chucklez PBPA was slanted. I don't think anyone disagrees there. He approached it from the perspective that Treigit was scum, and attempted to make the facts support the conclusion.
This could be a townie action. We have no way of knowing what Chucklez knows. But his claim has not stated extra knowledge about Treigit. So if he was town, he had no reason to try and paint Treigit scummy besides his observations. We don't know those observations because anything he posts is already slanted.
As mafia Chucklez is attempting to create a mislynch.
3. Chucklez claim could be intended to benefit town or mafia.
As a town role Chucklez is telling the truth, mostly, and trusting that we preserve a valuable role.
As mafia Chucklez is fishing for a counter claim, expecting to be unclaimed, and hoping for at least partial clearance through claiming a pro town role.
These are the three events I find significant in Chucklez play. Each can be seen as either scum or town roles depending on you
The dichotomy between Chucklez the townie during his PBPA is this. Lurking he either doesn't trust himself, the town or is disintrested. During the PBPA he doesn't trust the town to come to the best conclusion, his conclusion. His slanted PBPA demonstrates a desire This matches with second reason for lurking. It doesn't match the first or the third because a detailed PBPA demonstrates both intrest and confidence. Chucklez third action demonstrates complete trust in the towns decision, or a lack of interest in participation. He presents his information and leaves it at that. This is incompatible with his previous attitude towards the town. (this could be explained by posting on his parents computer. However when he returned he did not attempt to slant either his claim or the town's decision, so my point stands). In short, a townie Chuckles does not add up. His attitude towards the game, and the town shifts radically.
Chucklez as mafia makes more sense. Lurking to avoid attention, an attack on an individual based on little evidence, and claiming a role obscure in ability yet valuable to the town all benifit a mafia player.
Chuckles as scum represents a cohesive player. Chucklez as town represents a player with rapidly changing thought processes and attitudes. Therefor I find Chuckles far more likely to be mafia. Unote, Vote: Chucklez.
Note1: I am not a fool (I hope). I saw what happened when Chucklez wagoned me, and I expected the same reaction to my vote on him. I took some time to organize my thoughts. I can only hope my explaination satisfies.
Note2: I myself am guilty of a slanted attack on bluesoul at one point, in my zeal to bring the town into my opinion. The point is that this mistake can be made by townies. The degree Chucklez demonstrated in his mistake far excedes both my own and what I am willing to write of as a townie mistake. Which is why a feel comfortable making it a main point in my decision to vote Chuckles.
Note3: This is not intended to convince others, but as an explaination of my own actions. Hence the lack of quotations and examples.
Because nobody is interested in your one-man war against me? *shrug*
Keep in mind I said that under extreme distress. I wasn't doubting it was possible. Rather that it was extremely unlikely, and would be a poor move on his part. For the record, I think that D_M is doing a fine job so far. Seems like he put a lot of work into the game, and is keeping up with vote counts semi-regularly.
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Or maybe I was excited to play my first real Mafia game, and the idea of getting lynched within the first five minutes was a real downer? I think MD knows MD better than Cyan knows MD
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Abso on the other hand did some strange things, strange and confusing enough to make me vote him. But time has passed and I havn't noticed him trying to take negitve advantage of the chaos he spawned. So I'm ok to keep watching.
About MD? Oh, I'm bothered by it. Very bothered by it. LAL is a good rule. Frankly, I don't think that we can look at him before the deadine. And now we've discovered scum, at least I think so. And the two of us aren't the only ones who are convinced Chucklez is scum. We have a chance of lynching scum here. Now isn't the time for shenanigans. If you're really convinced Chucklez isn't scum, stop distracting us with MD and defend Chucklez. There are two ways I'll get on an MD bandwagon before tomorrow. You convince me Chucklez isn't scum, or enough people join your wagon that I beleive there's a chance of forcing and evaluating a claim before the deadline.
@DM: I request an extention of the deadline to resolve a number of issues created by the size of the day.
Okay, what the hell dude. You can't keep making arrogant, even condescending statements like this, and still be expected to be taken at all seriously when you say stuff like this:
Second, if you lied to us, you lied to us. Stop trying to mince words. Call it a hunch, but I'm going to unvote, vote MD. Don't get me wrong, I still think Chucklez is likely scum, but if he's mafia, he's made himself a juicy target for the SK. And, on the off chance he's town, his ability could be useful.
I support at least getting a full claim from MD (as he's already nameclaimed.)
There are five days and a bunch of hours until deadline. I'd say, put your money where your mouth is.
When you say Glasswright, you do mean Greek, right? It's Abso and AS who've claimed glasswright gods, Chucklez claimed the Greek god of peace.
Puzzle seems to have gone bonkers again.
I'm still in support of the Chucklez wagon over the other possibilites, and I wouldn't mind discussing Abso tomorrow.
Vote Azrael.
He uses the newb defense to the max, but the mannerisms in which it comes out strike me as classic natural reactions, which he would have had to put a good deal of effort and study into feigning.
I see that more as a logic error than a scum error. He was trying to clear himself by whatever means he can at that point, whether he's town or scum.
Vote Azrael.
If he's an actor type, then he could be worth revisiting.
Vote Azrael.
On Chucklez: I don't like the idea of voting off a claimed doctor-type role, but I'm having some issues with the flavor of his claim.
On one hand, I can see the legitimacy to linking his ability to the remaining Greek gods- Eirene was a part of a larger group, the Horae. However, I don't see anything in here that leads me to the logical conclusion that this goddess would have a healing/protective role.
Of course, DM warned us about this, but in all the research I did across the net the description was similar.
We're running out of time and this is a situation we need to avoid. We really need to come to a consensus.
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
Raf, did you even read Chucklez response to my post? I criticized him because he took a position which was not consistant with his role information. Originally he agreed with me that it was highly improbable, going into the realms of paranoia (he said), that a claim of the type I was suggesting (Glasswright Gods) would hurt the town. Then later he makes a claim which, if true, demonstrates clearly a way in which that kind of claim could be very detrimental. You want to credit him with being sneaky? With deliberately being misleading as to the basis of his objections?
I pointed out my problems with his responses. This is what he said:
So he is trying to say that the reason he thought that the partial claiming wouldn't be harmful was because if his ability had been dependant on the number of Glasswright Gods (or conversely, had I been asking people to claim if they were Greek Gods or not) he would simply have lied about the weakness/limitation of his ability.
Hey, Chucklez, why didn't you "lie" now? I mean, why didn't you simply claim "Faith Healer" as you said you would have. Instead, you have apparently full claimed and revealed this significant piece of information, which you would have been willing to conceal except...what? The fact that no one else has claimed Greek God yet? So that makes it not harmful?
The only way I would have seen this as believable would have been if it were flavor based in some way, such as dependant on the number of other Horae--not simply all Greek Gods--or even a communal type ability, such as DM had in his last game. Your answer, however, appears to exclude either of those possibilities. Leaving you with a role that you yourself don't even know the worth of, and can't evaluate. It's like DM said, each night you can try to protect someone if you feel like it, but you have no idea if it does any good?
And, incidentally, one that doesn't make any sense flavor-wise, but I am not going to push that argument too much.
Aside from your confusion about who already claimed what, you appear to be wrong.
a) he is far from a "must-kill" for scums. His ability, if true, gets worse with every other Greek God who dies. Why does this make him so dangerous?
b) more "Greek" Gods would not confirm anything? Too few Greek Gods would tend to disprove the claim, as it wouldn't make sense to have an ability that depended on the Number of other Greek Gods unless there were at least 3 or so. But more doesn't "prove" anything. If he were completely false-claiming, Greek would be the one to pick because they are the most popular/well known/likely to be in the game. If he had said his ability depended on the number of Gods from some lesser known Pantheon, that might have meant something.
I've been ignoring the MD situation. Haven't been able to get invested. You can correct me if I'm wrong, Puzzle, but you are basically saying that because MD said he didn't think DM would give a complete newbie a scum role and because: (1) he wasn't actually a complete newbie, and (2) he had actually received a scum role before, that he's clearly lying, and therefore scum. I'm not sure this is the smoking gun you seem to think it is. Clearly it's less compelling than my own point about Chucklez .
I think I wrote MD off early because of a comment by CropCircles, which didn't make any sense for him to have said without some kind of inside knowledge that MD was town.
What does that mean if he doesn't have inside info? It doesn't make any sense at all is what it means. You feel so strongly that he is not mafia that if you had a day-inspect (like you had in Star Trek) you would already have used it? Why would you inspect someone you thought was town? That really just doesn't follow. So I assumed you knew something. But now you say this:
Which appears to toss that idea out the window. And makes me wonder what you were smoking when you posted before about MD. Hmmmm.
With that said, I think I'm willing to join the Abso wagon because with deadline approaching, I think a vanilla mislynch is better than a power mislynch, and theres a good chance he's scum anyway.
Looking at each current wagon:
!C!/abso, see above
MD: Totally disagree with, and I'll add this one to the list of wagons I refuse to join. Puzzle's arguments are so weak and are attacking things that really mean almost nothing. I don't care if he's been a newbie scum before, that doesn't mean that he can't say that it would be poor judgement on the mod's part to make him scum now. And lets just say for a moment that he is scum. What makes him any more likely to make that statement than if he were town?? Nothing. In fact, I'd say that statement is more likely coming from a townie perspective than a scum perspective, however pathetic of a defense it may be.
A_H: And what's the case here again? Is there a case here? Not joining.
Treigit: Looong standing bandwagon here, and while I may not totally agree with it, I'll be willing to join it if it will make this day end. The #1 argument I have against this wagon is that it will extract another claim which we do not want. Because of this, I think we need to focus on one of the 3 people who have already claimed, at least in part.
So those 3 people are: Abso, !C!, MD. I've stated my case.
vote abso
AAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Furthermore, I never said it wasn't possible to be a newb scum, I just said it was a bad move. That is not a lie. Why do you keep twisting this? You have no point here.
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Also, stop acting like you have no experience whatsoever. You were in Werewolf Mafia on news, and in Classic Horror Mafia on News. Just because you can't stay in a game past Day 1 doesn't mean you can claim to be a newb for eternity.
Unvote, Vote MD
This started before them. EOTFOFIW.
With the deadline looming, you guys try and defer the town from it's course. Explain why the "MD thing" can't be revisited some other time? Chuck, Treigit, and A_H have been close to having their wagons topple over, and the lot of you are ruining the town's tempo. That's a poor play.
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OMGWTFBBQLLBEAN