I think that Daze and Breach both have potential as a strong addition because of AEther Vial. If you can set up a Vial turn one, Scepter/Stylus turn two then Dazing or losing a land to Breach, and the Breach would turn Solidarity into an easy match up with twelve discard plus a few Breach and possibly Negators.
Gratz on third, although it's only one pack, hope to see changes to the deck and board, since I unfortunately don't have time to test recently.
And yes, no incantatrix for you. Or anyone. That class makes puppies cry. Mostly because they are the former Big Bads who have been Baleful Polymorphed into said puppies. By you. Because you're an incantatrix.
Quote from Yukora »
This is Deraxas we're talking about.
Remember, the girl that just killed an aspect of herself before literally consuming her?
Yeah, I don't see her handling a pissing match in any way other than a duel.
Quote from RedDwarfian »
Yes mistress...
Quote from About epic-level D&D »
There are only so many epic, psuedonatural barbarian/blackguard half-dragon akutenshai vampire balor paragons they can throw at you, right?
Quote from Concerning breeding habits of humans in fantasy games »
I suppose it's true. Though the logistics implied in a human/Great Wyrm Prismatic Dragon pairing makes me shudder.
...Something tells me that even should all arcane casters in the world unite, that the Grease spell would NOT be sufficient.
Although I did lose to BW Pikula on Monday, it is usually not completely in their favor. I don't consider it a horrible matchup to improve on. The rack looks like it could hurt a lot.
Quote from Lil_Dragon / FallenOmnipotent on MSN »
Echoing truth is an answer to various targets. It still doesn't make sense to play it as a 4x of
it's a sub-par card
taking a mother defensivly still makes you vunerable to jitte and Sword. they have other answers too. In short, they have alot more answers AND threats than you.
Echoing Truth isn't sub-par and its hardly crappy... it could be traded for another answer, but its the only permanent removal once permanents hit play, and its woth transmuting for... can we find something better that costs 2 (or is so powerful that not costing 2 doesnt matter)? Angel Stomppy is hardly the horrible match you're making it out to be. You say you only win when they get screwed... unless you're playing something wrong I don't think it's an impossible matchup... You can test it with me later some if you want, we'll scope it out.
Quote from bb_bart »
I think that Daze and Breach both have potential as a strong addition because of AEther Vial. If you can set up a Vial turn one, Scepter/Stylus turn two then Dazing or losing a land to Breach, and the Breach would turn Solidarity into an easy match up with twelve discard plus a few Breach and possibly Negators.
Gratz on third, although it's only one pack, hope to see changes to the deck and board, since I unfortunately don't have time to test recently.
I agree and really have to get around to testing Mana Breach... what could it replace in the maindeck? 3 Echoing Truth? Some discard? And thank you for your help, anyway, I'll do the best I can with the sideboard in the meantime.
Avatar of Kokusho, this is very good news. I am flattered to hear you are testing the deck, and trust your playskills and can guess you are playing it expertly. PM me if you can play on MWS any time! Vialing in Horror to block a Jackal Pup or Negator is a very good feeling. I'm glad Gilded Drake earned its keep as I feel embaressed that it gets sided out in a lot of matchups :(...
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While netdecking and testing VileHorror i thought about Biorhythm. Sure its really expensive, off-color and crappy but still you're always the one with creatures while playing VH. That made me think.
And yes, no incantatrix for you. Or anyone. That class makes puppies cry. Mostly because they are the former Big Bads who have been Baleful Polymorphed into said puppies. By you. Because you're an incantatrix.
Quote from Yukora »
This is Deraxas we're talking about.
Remember, the girl that just killed an aspect of herself before literally consuming her?
Yeah, I don't see her handling a pissing match in any way other than a duel.
Quote from RedDwarfian »
Yes mistress...
Quote from About epic-level D&D »
There are only so many epic, psuedonatural barbarian/blackguard half-dragon akutenshai vampire balor paragons they can throw at you, right?
Quote from Concerning breeding habits of humans in fantasy games »
I suppose it's true. Though the logistics implied in a human/Great Wyrm Prismatic Dragon pairing makes me shudder.
...Something tells me that even should all arcane casters in the world unite, that the Grease spell would NOT be sufficient.
The warm and fuzzy feeling is from watching the life total go to 13, then 6, then ... well then the Horror gets swords'd... and then you cry and scramble to get them to take the last couple damage and roll over.
Gilded Drake vs. Creatureless decks says if you cast a Hunted Horror, it turns into a watchwolf type deal... 1U for a 3/3 pro black Centaur.... greh thats the best it can do (not COMPLETELY dead)
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While netdecking and testing VileHorror i thought about Biorhythm. Sure its really expensive, off-color and crappy but still you're always the one with creatures while playing VH. That made me think.
for creature removal, i suggest do or die it can remove multiple creatures, and costs 1B. maybe replacing echoing truth? i cant think of anything in U/B that can remove enchantments/ artifacts permanently. I like in the eye of chaos maybe replace funeral charm in the sb? for some reason, mws and apprentice dont work on my computer, so i cant really test
We live in a country were ~50% of the populace believe public schooling is a socialist conspiracy and that being called Einstein is an insult. We could try and fix it, but unfortunately the other 50% don't believe in euthanasia.
I didn't realized Do or Die costed only 1B! That's beautiful! Thank you all so much, these 3 suggestions are VERY helpful. Obviously, I can't afford Chains any time in the near future, but it is a great / powerful hoser of course that will be included over In the Eye of Chaos on MWS tournaments. I'm going to try out 3 Do or Die, 1 Echoing Truth in the maindeck.
In the Eye of Chaos will of course replace the current slot held by Funeral Charm (but still needs to be tested, I've been somewhat busy lately) and we'll go from there.
I saw the "new wording" of Chains and thought I was stupid for ever thinking it combo-ed with Lore Broker, but I now realize that there has been an errata since a few months ago... no formal announcement so I didn't notice it.
While netdecking and testing VileHorror i thought about Biorhythm. Sure its really expensive, off-color and crappy but still you're always the one with creatures while playing VH. That made me think.
I tested Do or Die vs. Goblins and still lost, but it did kill 5 goblins... wasn't enough to save me. They Gempalmed a Horror for 8... Uh... So I'm not quite sure on Do or Die, although I really like the idea... again don't know what to cut or change.
Standstill's pros are good, as listed, and most people break a standstill (and you control when it drops) - but perhaps Manlands could actually be utilized, as in 4x Mishra's Factory? I think it could be done without killing the deck completely.... Thank you Magicianofthought
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While netdecking and testing VileHorror i thought about Biorhythm. Sure its really expensive, off-color and crappy but still you're always the one with creatures while playing VH. That made me think.
Tomorrow (err rather today, it's past midnight) is the tournament. I may not be allowed to go (angry mother, scheduling conflicts, grounded[?]) but if I do I have a few questions to ask a poll on. I haven't been able to get my hands on any Do or Die (I didn't place an order on eBay because I haven't tested with them yet) but don't know if I'd want to run them for sure yet, have to see if it's as strong as it looks. In the Eye of Chaos is awesome, of course, but I'll have to work up the $24 to invest on 'em when the time comes, and I want to do some testing with them too to see if they're worth the "investment."
The cards I'm specifically asking about / looking at for tomorrow are Cloud of Faeries and Standstill as discussed by magician of thought. Cloud of Faeries holds the Jitte, is free, cycles, and can possibly allow surprise Echoing Truths or whatever... basically it's good with Vial if it wasn't good enough already. It's drawback is it takes up slots ;).... As for Standstill, I'd have to build a lot more around it, but it could prove rewarding. If you believe it's worth including, does anyone have any ideas on how to modify the maindeck for these changes / where to make room and what to change?
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While netdecking and testing VileHorror i thought about Biorhythm. Sure its really expensive, off-color and crappy but still you're always the one with creatures while playing VH. That made me think.
id say leave out the faeries. your argument for them is based around jitte and echoing truth. your most current list(afaik) calls for only 1 echoing truth, and 1 jitte. bcs of this, i dont think the interaction with these two is not worth severly altering the deck.
We live in a country were ~50% of the populace believe public schooling is a socialist conspiracy and that being called Einstein is an insult. We could try and fix it, but unfortunately the other 50% don't believe in euthanasia.
Well, there are 4 Echoing Truth, 1 Jitte (2 more Sideboard) and the arguement is that I bring Wretch in as a 2/2 for BB in a LOT of games so that I can use the Jitte effectively.
The faeries don't seem to offer too much, but again, they're worth a try, I guess... they don't really add anything though. So it will stay out tonight, as will Standstill, as I don't think I can modify the deck fast enough to the point where I trust it's modifications.
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While netdecking and testing VileHorror i thought about Biorhythm. Sure its really expensive, off-color and crappy but still you're always the one with creatures while playing VH. That made me think.
While netdecking and testing VileHorror i thought about Biorhythm. Sure its really expensive, off-color and crappy but still you're always the one with creatures while playing VH. That made me think.
I did horrible today. It was quite dissapointing. I got 7th/9. I lost 2 games, won 1. I suppose once I go through the explanation of the games, it will be a little less humiliating, but I wasn't very happy. Our stupid 9-player tournament meant one short of another round, so we only played 3 rounds - how stupid is that?
I played the list exactly as above, but in the slot with the 3x Funeral Charm, I put 2x Chill and 1x Defense Grid. These cards will NEVER go in the deck again as long as I live. SO BAD. Chill is ****ty as well. Oh, and I went 3 and 3 on the Scepter/Stylus so Pithing Needle wouldn't hurt as bad... didn't work at all as I only drew Styluses exculsively during the Threshold game I played. And I only drew Duress twice the entire night :(.... Worse yet, I drew Dark Confidant once - and won that game (the only game I won of that match)!
Round 1: Matt Something - Solidarity (Yes, at our store! Can you believe it?)
This guy was a big fat jerk in all senses of the word. He spent a long time registering his deck while I waited and shuffled. Then it was time for him to shuffle. He took probably 4-5 minutes shuffling. He says "don't worry, our match won't take the whole time" - after later finding out it was Solidarity, I thought, is he joking? I won the die roll and chose to play of course. He spreads out his little play mat and it has a sketch of Ancestral Recall drawn on it and signed by Mark Poole, and in a like manner by each artist, Intuition, Patriarch's Bidding, Chrome Mox, Library of Alexandra.
Game 1: Opening hand has nice disruption, but I end up hitting 4 land with a Volrath's Stronghold - usually doesn't hurt me, but this game it stopped me from playing 2 double colored spells each turn which somewhat hurt. I of course resolved the Scepter/Styluses and then a Horror. Got him to 13, 10 with fetches, then I Hymn to Tourached. He isn't too happy and High Tides into a Cunning Wish for Chain of Vapor.... whatever. I Hymn to Tourach twice more and drew another Horror. Win.
Sideboarding: -2 Gilded Drake, -4 Echoing Truth, +3 Withered Wretch, +2 Pithing Needle (for fetch lands), +1 Defense Grid. Didn't have enough to stop all cards from being dead, so the least "dead" card stayed in at 2x - Gilded Drake. The needles came in to name fetch lands like Avatar of Kokusho told me to do.
Game 2: I drew Vial, Confidant, Wretch, land, etc. in opening hand. I resolve a Vial and turn 2 decide to go for a Needle (sadly he played the Delta I somewhat wanted to hit at the cost of my own (none in hand though) and saced it in response to the needle) I named Flooded Strand and thought I missed until I looked over during the last round and saw he had one on the board, so I made the right play there. I played a 2nd Vial and passed. The reason I didn't Hymn to Tourach that turn was because I feared counterspell - I'm an idiot. The next turn I transmuted for a second Hymn to Tourach, again, stupid, should have just played the one in hand. I hymn with mana to hymn again the next turn... he goes off in response with a Remand on the Brain Freeze for only 7, of course, thanking me for the storm. He had no way to make me draw cards that I saw (probably in board), but I didn't have a Stylus... I scoop When he reset, he Twincasted it and put them both in the graveyard on top of eachother immediately. I told him this and he got really pissed and called the judge over who gave him a warning for procedural error minor... he deserved it.
Game 3: I have an opening hand of Duress, 2 land, 1 Scepter, 2 Stylus, 1 Horror. Turn one Duress shows 3 Island, Remand, Impulse, and Accumulated Knoweldge (another reason to board wretch in, but these really looked like they sucked and don't belong in Solidarity) - I wrote down the hand and took Impulse, not fearing Remand because I was on the play. I turn 2 cast a Horror and let him have the Centaurs - I've never done this before in a tournament! It's usually a freaking horrible thing to do, but he didn't even attack, thinking I didn't have an answer / was stupid, etc. I play all 3 scepters after asking OK in between, he doesn't counter any. I smash 2 tokens with 1 scepter, 1 stylus, leaving 1 open to stop mill if he somehow goes off on his turn. I swing for 7, then 7 again, then play another Horror (probably not a good idea fearing Echoing Truth, but 3x scepter meant it wasnt painful to recast them at all... I feared Chain of Vapor more, so I played the second one and he scooped.
Every round had 3 games in it tonight, meaning I didn't get to watch my friends' games at all - also notice that winning the die roll seemed to mean I won the first game, and winning the first game meant winning the 3rd, and not winning it meant the opposite pattern. Die rolls are disguistingly important...
Round 2: Aaron Parks - Fish (same list as last week)
He didn't seem to be bitter about last week's game; we're joking around, etc. and he was friendly during the games. He says I have to allow him one take-back since I was a jerk last week with the Factory... he forgets to put a counter on and puts it on after drawing, I say "hey" but he puts it on anway and we move on... I don't remember if it immediately mattered...
Game 1: I don't think I can win it without extra copies of the jitte... the game went horrible for the most part and since I didn't know he was playing the same deck as last week, I wanted to duress to see what it was. STUPID STUPID... My opening hand, 4 land, Horror, Stylus, Duress, meant I had to draw something else to make turn 2 contain anything of worth. I end up Duressing out an Aether Vial because I see he has Standstill... I suppose I could have prevented it, but he got a Mogg Fanatic down and cast it so fast it was rediculous... meaning after playing a land and the Stylus on turn 2 and leaving mana untouched and passing the turn retardedly (horrible loss of tempo), I had to pop the stupid Standstill to play the horror... then the Centaur raped me as I (knowingly: I knew the cards were there from Duressing, and spoke what I feared out loud) blocked the Fanatic with Horror. What I said came true: Damage on, sac, Fire//Ice, Bolt = Horror dead. Next turn he lays another Standstill down and I don't want to pop it and transmute first... I get a Horror and decide oh heck, I need to. So I play it and, being an idiot, tap out. Daze. I lose from there. Draked Centaur had the Jitte (transmuted for) equiped, but got bolted before it could block....
Game 2: I get a Horror out and get him down to 12 before he drops an Engineered Explosives... Attacking again brings him to 5 before he can blow it... but I can't believe I didn't board in needles when I even saw a lot of other good targets! I'm an idiot The spectators somewhat distracted me... I get a Horror out (I forget how this all went) and swing for the last 5 with him trying to chump block.
Game 3: I turn 1 play a Stylus, he plays a Spiketail Hatchling, turn 2 try to decide whether to play a Delta or a Swamp to play Jitte, Hymn, or Infiltrator (or save him to transmute)... I switched it while thinking and he ends up making me keep the delta... I later found out why... I end up casting the Jitte and he says "if you have no dudes, why bother countering it... it sucks without them, so I'll just counter your creatures"... He untaps, wastelands my wretched Underground Sea and leaves me without Blue for the next 4 turns. I'm heartbroken. I cast Hymn to Tourach to be Dazed (missing that ****ing 3rd land)... then I sit there doing nothing for a few turns and he plays out another Hatchling and a Fanatic and ninjutsus some crap and beats in... I drop a Plague with 2 mana open so the Hatchlings couldn't stop it (not that it would matter since they probably would both die if it resolved)... I know I'm mixing up the story, but even though I duressed a Powder Keg away, he found 2 more and set one on 1 and one on 2.... Time in the round, but I can't stall him because I wasn't planning on doing something so low... I bring back an Infiltrator to block with (stronghold) but he burns it, then me... I die... He blew up my board with Kegs...
Round 3: Forget his name - UGw Threshold (my 2nd worst matchup)
This really sucks. Bad. I mentioned I played as I was leaving last week, and I couldn't win. He was using ALL Ravnica duals and taking 3 from fetching them, playing them, etc. It also let me know when he had a counterspell in hand because he'd take 2 to play them untapped and then do nothing.
Game 1: Needles all over the place with counter backup. I resolve a Vial, but it gets needled as usual. I have Horror, Stylus, Echoing Truth, Drake in hand. I decide to play the stylus, then the Drake (it gets countered).... I have 1 mana open only so I can't play the horror (in the hope he ran out of counters)... so I wait a turn and EOT bounce his Needles and put a Drawback-less horror into play. Swing.... Swords. YES LIFEGAIN... I hate playing vs. UGw Threshold... it's just not fair. I get beat in by Werebear and a Mystic Enforcer that I can't find a Gilded Drake, Echoing Truth, OR Dimir Infiltrator to deal with.
Sideboarding: I forget exactly, but the Withered Wretches came in and some Drakes came out... Jitte can be sworded, etc. I have nothing - maybe I should board Perish... only to have it countered. But seriously I need to board Chains of Mephistopheles.
Game 2: I play Vial - meets Needle. I play Wretch - meets Needle. (Turn 1, Turn 2) then I get Dark Confidant out and somewhat win from there. He Armageddons for instant-threshold, but never attacks so that he doesnt have to take 4 from my guys... anyway Dark Confidant gets me extra copies of the cards I need and I can Hymn out some counterspells and resolve an Echoing Truth. On his upkeep, I put 2 Hunted Horrors and a Dimir Infiltrator into play. I smash 2 of the 4 tokens and the other 2 can't even attack. He concedes in his Arnold Schwarzenegger voices.
Game 3: I draw okay, he lets Defense Grid resolve. Before I get my 4th turn, he swings with 2 3/3 Mongeese, and drops a THIRD Mongoose and a Werebear.... That's just not fair :(... I put out two chump blockers, with Dark Confidant, Wretch, Jitte in hand, but he swords'd one and my plans were kinda ruined... I go down to 1 and can't even use my stupid fetchland. He had 9 cards in his graveyard instead of 8, so playing Wretch and spending my 2 other mana to RFG his stuff would still let him have threshold (and he could probably regain it anyway next turn).... Losing freaking sucks.
New Sideboard Thoughts:
4 Pithing Needle
3 Withered Wretch
1-2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Hydroblast + 2 BEB
3 Chains of Mephistopheles (In the Eye of Chaos doesn't hurt Threshold enough, and Chains looks promising vs. both it and Solidarity... although Goblins has so much "non-draw" draw...)
So it seems my huge problems are Goblins and UGw Threshold...
While netdecking and testing VileHorror i thought about Biorhythm. Sure its really expensive, off-color and crappy but still you're always the one with creatures while playing VH. That made me think.
It costs 2, it's pain (multicolored) is negated when Vialed out, can be transmuted for, and only requires one swamp to become a Scrubland. Can be maindecked or sideboarded. I think it's inclusion may be "overdue?" vs. Threshold I'd name Nimble Mongoose if it's not already out... and if it's the white version, Swords to Plowshares of course. I think Mage could go in over Duress or find some room in the sideboard.
I'd do anything just to not have to buy Chains or In the Eye... they are more expensive than I originally thought they'd be on eBay...
EDIT: As suggested to me by Aaron Parks, I finally should get around to including a Pro-White 2cc option. Gets by Swords, and the non-BlackKnight three can take down threshold creatures. Nantuko Shade can do the job too, but can be swords'd. So the options are:
The last two are the ones I'm leaning towards, and although Flying gets around Moat and can take down a Gilded Drake for BBB, I think First strike is better vs. Threshold, etc. so you don't lose the creature.
While netdecking and testing VileHorror i thought about Biorhythm. Sure its really expensive, off-color and crappy but still you're always the one with creatures while playing VH. That made me think.
EDIT: As suggested to me by Aaron Parks, I finally should get around to including a Pro-White 2cc option. Gets by Swords, and the non-BlackKnight three can take down threshold creatures. Nantuko Shade can do the job too, but can be swords'd. So the options are:
The last two are the ones I'm leaning towards, and although Flying gets around Moat and can take down a Gilded Drake for BBB, I think First strike is better vs. Threshold, etc. so you don't lose the creature.
Next question: what to replace?
When I get my new laptop I will help test the deck. I really like the consep
As for the Pro-white, all of them have something special but testing will only figure out what to put there.
I think an Edict might be nice for some non-targeting removal.
This deck looks interesting, and it seems to do you well I'm interested in playing it. That is, when I start to get some of the rares needed for this deck (jittes and fetchlands are a pain).
And white has alot to offer Mainly Meddling Mage and Swords ...
Add Standstill. You vial or transmute most of your guys, anyway...
Either that, or consider Shadowmage Infiltrator or something like it. Its fear is relevant, it wears a Jitte, and it nets you cards. Seems fair. Only drawback is its 3cc, so you can't go fetch one.
Chains won't help you too much against Threshold. Your main problem vs UGW is the fact that Mystic Enforcer has protection from black, so unless you resolve Gilded Drake (as if they'll allow THAT) he hits you in the head over and over. Also, making your Horror a farmer sucks for you. There's not a lot you can do about that, unless you choose to Duress out the Swords. (I would and have.)
Another Legends card you may wish to consider vs Threshold is Invoke Prejudice. They don't run black creatures, so it could help. I have no idea how much it costs...but its UUUU cost may turn you off. In the Eye of Chaos may be more effective. (Now I wish I hadn't traded my three. I'd give 'em to you if I still had them. :()
I am, however, under the firm belief that Chains is black's best answer to Solidarity. It just costs too damned much.
Some nontargeted kill effects could also be helpful. Nimble Mongoose is one of the most annoying creatures in all of MtG.
And yes, no incantatrix for you. Or anyone. That class makes puppies cry. Mostly because they are the former Big Bads who have been Baleful Polymorphed into said puppies. By you. Because you're an incantatrix.
Quote from Yukora »
This is Deraxas we're talking about.
Remember, the girl that just killed an aspect of herself before literally consuming her?
Yeah, I don't see her handling a pissing match in any way other than a duel.
Quote from RedDwarfian »
Yes mistress...
Quote from About epic-level D&D »
There are only so many epic, psuedonatural barbarian/blackguard half-dragon akutenshai vampire balor paragons they can throw at you, right?
Quote from Concerning breeding habits of humans in fantasy games »
I suppose it's true. Though the logistics implied in a human/Great Wyrm Prismatic Dragon pairing makes me shudder.
...Something tells me that even should all arcane casters in the world unite, that the Grease spell would NOT be sufficient.
I just happened upon this thread and figured I'd throw in my two cents. I was developing a rather similar deck (which, strangely enough, seems to have a rather similar deveopmental path to this one....I wonder if someone was stealing ideas *wink wink nudge nudge* such thievery!:D ) but put it on a back burner for a while. Looking here it seems the deck has developed far past the point I was at, but the discussions and ideas put forth on the SCG thread might still be of some assistance to its further development.
Rather than recounting here, I will simply post a link (hopefully this is okay since SCG is a business). I've editted the point I'd gotten to into the OP, but it's worth reading further (to see the red build, for example). The few times I played it (both casually and competitively), it ran well and since my interest is again piqued, I'll read this thread over, throw together a deck again, grab some ideas and come back to help out......thieves.
Edit - To throw in a little more content at this point: Tel-Jilad Stylus and Despotic Scepter are largely wasted space, in my opinion. (Combined with Brand..just noticed the Brand builds seem to have gone out the window) It makes for 8-12 combo cards that are largely useless should the deck be failing. In the deck above Other options (ie Powder Keg, Pernicious Deed,..., ) offer far greater general utility. They might lack the re-usability and cheapness of the Stylus, but their utility against decks such as Goblins is undeniable. I might try a 4 Echoing Truth, 4 Brand, 4 Powderkeg setup in a build allowing for red or 4 Echoing Truth, 4 Kegs, 2 Stylus and 2 Scepter in the B/U build that seems to be the going trend, but that's just a thought...
I just happened upon this thread and figured I'd throw in my two cents. I was developing a rather similar deck (which, strangely enough, seems to have a rather similar deveopmental path to this one....I wonder if someone was stealing ideas *wink wink nudge nudge* such thievery!:D ) but put it on a back burner for a while. Looking here it seems the deck has developed far past the point I was at, but the discussions and ideas put forth on the SCG thread might still be of some assistance to its further development.
Rather than recounting here, I will simply post a link (hopefully this is okay since SCG is a business). I've editted the point I'd gotten to into the OP, but it's worth reading further (to see the red build, for example). The few times I played it (both casually and competitively), it ran well and since my interest is again piqued, I'll read this thread over, throw together a deck again, grab some ideas and come back to help out......thieves.
Isamaru didn't steal anything.:-/
Your decklist and his decklist are vastly different. Risking both spam and flame warnings, I'll say this now:
Please don't pop up out of nowhere and call an established member of this community a thief. That's pointless, stupid, and showing ignorance of what is truly going on. If you cared to research things, you would find that his list was originally posted on MTGNews, and refined since then.
So if the only reason you created an account here is to make unfounded accusations, go away.
And yes, no incantatrix for you. Or anyone. That class makes puppies cry. Mostly because they are the former Big Bads who have been Baleful Polymorphed into said puppies. By you. Because you're an incantatrix.
Quote from Yukora »
This is Deraxas we're talking about.
Remember, the girl that just killed an aspect of herself before literally consuming her?
Yeah, I don't see her handling a pissing match in any way other than a duel.
Quote from RedDwarfian »
Yes mistress...
Quote from About epic-level D&D »
There are only so many epic, psuedonatural barbarian/blackguard half-dragon akutenshai vampire balor paragons they can throw at you, right?
Quote from Concerning breeding habits of humans in fantasy games »
I suppose it's true. Though the logistics implied in a human/Great Wyrm Prismatic Dragon pairing makes me shudder.
...Something tells me that even should all arcane casters in the world unite, that the Grease spell would NOT be sufficient.
Your decklist and his decklist are vastly different. Risking both spam and flame warnings, I'll say this now:
Please don't pop up out of nowhere and call an established member of this community a thief. That's pointless, stupid, and showing ignorance of what is truly going on. If you cared to research things, you would find that his list was originally posted on MTGNews, and refined since then.
So if the only reason you created an account here is to make unfounded accusations, go away.
I guess the smiley is lost on you....in this case it denotes sarcasm. You'll also note that my post fails to note who was stealing from who, and although the implication was that it was stolen from me, the generality leaves it open for clever people to point out that his deck was indeed posted first.
Regardless, as should be obvious to most, I'm joining to get in on the discussion and offer what little I have learned so far.
(<-Here the smiley denotes 'no hard feelings' and 'just kidding around' so as to avoid the flame war you fear.)
EDIT - and to add some content and continue my edit in the last thread: How is it that Brand has been discounted so quickly? I noticed on the first page it was said to be too "vulnerable" and often "useless" but how is it any more so than the Scepter or Stylus? On the 3rd page of discussion it was brought up again with no conclusion. It's cheaper and has a broader effect than both, not to mention that it simply doesn't do away with Hunted Horror's negative ability (as the current choices do), it turns it into a potential win condition. Although my deck and experience with the idea is outdated in the face of the most current build here, it seemed that a splash of red offered multiple benefits (see the mostly red build[not mine] in the link above)...despite the cumulative upkeep even Varchild's War-Rider's was an interesting (although largely casual) addition.
At the risk of sounding arrogant, it is possible that a considerable reason the two decks look similar to you (they don't to me) is that I was involved in both. I say this because I was in the habit of giving the same advice to both of you as I recall. I should also mention that Isamaru has tried several versions along this same sort of interactions. This one is just the most successful.
I thought that when I began work on these decks that I was the first/only at the time. And I worked on this briefly before either of these discussions were posted. But it seems that several, if not many people had some of the same ideas. Isamaru was one of them, and Pure Budget, so were you. And there were some others as well. So there is actually little chance that anyone stole these ideas from anyone else.
I would like to add that Isamaru has put serious effort into this and deserves to be the one at the forefront of its evolution. But we would love to have you on the effort with us. New perspectives from experienced testers are always good. If you are interested, welcome aboard.
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Gratz on third, although it's only one pack, hope to see changes to the deck and board, since I unfortunately don't have time to test recently.
Guess what Vile Horror knocks the ever loving crap out of!!
My playtesting partner: my husband (who, at the time, I was glad to be smacking with Hunted Horrors.:-/ ) He played B/r Sui.
# of matches: 10 (took 100000000 years it seemed)
Match wins for me: 8 (Vial in Horror in resp to Negator attack. Sweet.)
Match wins for him: 2 (Rit, Rit, Negator, Sinkhole. Ouch. 'Nuff said.)
Note to all of you: Hunted Horror laughs at burn spells.
I proxied only the Underground Seas...those things are expensive and I have to get my car fixed...so new starter >> Seas.
Gilded Drake was the MVP of this one, folks.
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Deraxas, Dark Maiden of Shimia,, still oddly obsessed with a mindmage.
I agree and really have to get around to testing Mana Breach... what could it replace in the maindeck? 3 Echoing Truth? Some discard? And thank you for your help, anyway, I'll do the best I can with the sideboard in the meantime.
Avatar of Kokusho, this is very good news. I am flattered to hear you are testing the deck, and trust your playskills and can guess you are playing it expertly. PM me if you can play on MWS any time! Vialing in Horror to block a Jackal Pup or Negator is a very good feeling. I'm glad Gilded Drake earned its keep as I feel embaressed that it gets sided out in a lot of matchups :(...
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That was, in retrospect, rather funny...even you should think so, now.
Beating face with 7/7 tramplers makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside.
"I am in the arcane, and the arcane is in me."
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Deraxas, Dark Maiden of Shimia,, still oddly obsessed with a mindmage.
Gilded Drake vs. Creatureless decks says if you cast a Hunted Horror, it turns into a watchwolf type deal... 1U for a 3/3 pro black Centaur.... greh thats the best it can do (not COMPLETELY dead)
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Edit:Just checked, it has been errataed:
Now it's even better since they can't cantrip on your draw step to avoid the effect.
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In the Eye of Chaos will of course replace the current slot held by Funeral Charm (but still needs to be tested, I've been somewhat busy lately) and we'll go from there.
I saw the "new wording" of Chains and thought I was stupid for ever thinking it combo-ed with Lore Broker, but I now realize that there has been an errata since a few months ago... no formal announcement so I didn't notice it.
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Standstill
Reasons on this:
lockBeatdown situation with Destorying artifacts & Æther VialI will now let the experts of this deck do what they do best.
Standstill's pros are good, as listed, and most people break a standstill (and you control when it drops) - but perhaps Manlands could actually be utilized, as in 4x Mishra's Factory? I think it could be done without killing the deck completely.... Thank you Magicianofthought
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The cards I'm specifically asking about / looking at for tomorrow are Cloud of Faeries and Standstill as discussed by magician of thought. Cloud of Faeries holds the Jitte, is free, cycles, and can possibly allow surprise Echoing Truths or whatever... basically it's good with Vial if it wasn't good enough already. It's drawback is it takes up slots ;).... As for Standstill, I'd have to build a lot more around it, but it could prove rewarding. If you believe it's worth including, does anyone have any ideas on how to modify the maindeck for these changes / where to make room and what to change?
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The faeries don't seem to offer too much, but again, they're worth a try, I guess... they don't really add anything though. So it will stay out tonight, as will Standstill, as I don't think I can modify the deck fast enough to the point where I trust it's modifications.
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4 Gilded Drake
4 Dark Confidant
4 Dimir Infiltrator
4 Echoing Truth
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Tel-Jilad Stylus
4 Despotic Scepter
4 Aether Vial
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Polluted Delta
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Underground Sea
1 Watery Grave
6 Swamp
2 Tainted Isle
4 Pithing Needle
3 Withered Wretch
3 Engineered Plague
2 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Funeral Charm / In the Eye of Chaos
God I wish Vexing Sphinx costed 2.... I suppose it could still work at 3, but if only it costed 2 then it would be in in a heartbeat...
Celebrating 3 years of open-minded acceptance, indispensable help, great advice, and incalculably-creative deck-design... Thanks for all the magic!
I did horrible today. It was quite dissapointing. I got 7th/9. I lost 2 games, won 1. I suppose once I go through the explanation of the games, it will be a little less humiliating, but I wasn't very happy. Our stupid 9-player tournament meant one short of another round, so we only played 3 rounds - how stupid is that?
I played the list exactly as above, but in the slot with the 3x Funeral Charm, I put 2x Chill and 1x Defense Grid. These cards will NEVER go in the deck again as long as I live. SO BAD. Chill is ****ty as well. Oh, and I went 3 and 3 on the Scepter/Stylus so Pithing Needle wouldn't hurt as bad... didn't work at all as I only drew Styluses exculsively during the Threshold game I played. And I only drew Duress twice the entire night :(.... Worse yet, I drew Dark Confidant once - and won that game (the only game I won of that match)!
Round 1: Matt Something - Solidarity (Yes, at our store! Can you believe it?)
This guy was a big fat jerk in all senses of the word. He spent a long time registering his deck while I waited and shuffled. Then it was time for him to shuffle. He took probably 4-5 minutes shuffling. He says "don't worry, our match won't take the whole time" - after later finding out it was Solidarity, I thought, is he joking? I won the die roll and chose to play of course. He spreads out his little play mat and it has a sketch of Ancestral Recall drawn on it and signed by Mark Poole, and in a like manner by each artist, Intuition, Patriarch's Bidding, Chrome Mox, Library of Alexandra.
Game 1: Opening hand has nice disruption, but I end up hitting 4 land with a Volrath's Stronghold - usually doesn't hurt me, but this game it stopped me from playing 2 double colored spells each turn which somewhat hurt. I of course resolved the Scepter/Styluses and then a Horror. Got him to 13, 10 with fetches, then I Hymn to Tourached. He isn't too happy and High Tides into a Cunning Wish for Chain of Vapor.... whatever. I Hymn to Tourach twice more and drew another Horror. Win.
Sideboarding: -2 Gilded Drake, -4 Echoing Truth, +3 Withered Wretch, +2 Pithing Needle (for fetch lands), +1 Defense Grid. Didn't have enough to stop all cards from being dead, so the least "dead" card stayed in at 2x - Gilded Drake. The needles came in to name fetch lands like Avatar of Kokusho told me to do.
Game 2: I drew Vial, Confidant, Wretch, land, etc. in opening hand. I resolve a Vial and turn 2 decide to go for a Needle (sadly he played the Delta I somewhat wanted to hit at the cost of my own (none in hand though) and saced it in response to the needle) I named Flooded Strand and thought I missed until I looked over during the last round and saw he had one on the board, so I made the right play there. I played a 2nd Vial and passed. The reason I didn't Hymn to Tourach that turn was because I feared counterspell - I'm an idiot. The next turn I transmuted for a second Hymn to Tourach, again, stupid, should have just played the one in hand. I hymn with mana to hymn again the next turn... he goes off in response with a Remand on the Brain Freeze for only 7, of course, thanking me for the storm. He had no way to make me draw cards that I saw (probably in board), but I didn't have a Stylus... I scoop When he reset, he Twincasted it and put them both in the graveyard on top of eachother immediately. I told him this and he got really pissed and called the judge over who gave him a warning for procedural error minor... he deserved it.
Game 3: I have an opening hand of Duress, 2 land, 1 Scepter, 2 Stylus, 1 Horror. Turn one Duress shows 3 Island, Remand, Impulse, and Accumulated Knoweldge (another reason to board wretch in, but these really looked like they sucked and don't belong in Solidarity) - I wrote down the hand and took Impulse, not fearing Remand because I was on the play. I turn 2 cast a Horror and let him have the Centaurs - I've never done this before in a tournament! It's usually a freaking horrible thing to do, but he didn't even attack, thinking I didn't have an answer / was stupid, etc. I play all 3 scepters after asking OK in between, he doesn't counter any. I smash 2 tokens with 1 scepter, 1 stylus, leaving 1 open to stop mill if he somehow goes off on his turn. I swing for 7, then 7 again, then play another Horror (probably not a good idea fearing Echoing Truth, but 3x scepter meant it wasnt painful to recast them at all... I feared Chain of Vapor more, so I played the second one and he scooped.
Every round had 3 games in it tonight, meaning I didn't get to watch my friends' games at all - also notice that winning the die roll seemed to mean I won the first game, and winning the first game meant winning the 3rd, and not winning it meant the opposite pattern. Die rolls are disguistingly important...
Round 2: Aaron Parks - Fish (same list as last week)
He didn't seem to be bitter about last week's game; we're joking around, etc. and he was friendly during the games. He says I have to allow him one take-back since I was a jerk last week with the Factory... he forgets to put a counter on and puts it on after drawing, I say "hey" but he puts it on anway and we move on... I don't remember if it immediately mattered...
Game 1: I don't think I can win it without extra copies of the jitte... the game went horrible for the most part and since I didn't know he was playing the same deck as last week, I wanted to duress to see what it was. STUPID STUPID... My opening hand, 4 land, Horror, Stylus, Duress, meant I had to draw something else to make turn 2 contain anything of worth. I end up Duressing out an Aether Vial because I see he has Standstill... I suppose I could have prevented it, but he got a Mogg Fanatic down and cast it so fast it was rediculous... meaning after playing a land and the Stylus on turn 2 and leaving mana untouched and passing the turn retardedly (horrible loss of tempo), I had to pop the stupid Standstill to play the horror... then the Centaur raped me as I (knowingly: I knew the cards were there from Duressing, and spoke what I feared out loud) blocked the Fanatic with Horror. What I said came true: Damage on, sac, Fire//Ice, Bolt = Horror dead. Next turn he lays another Standstill down and I don't want to pop it and transmute first... I get a Horror and decide oh heck, I need to. So I play it and, being an idiot, tap out. Daze. I lose from there. Draked Centaur had the Jitte (transmuted for) equiped, but got bolted before it could block....
Sideboarding: -3 Echoing Truth, -4 Gilded Drake, -1 Stylus, +3 Engineered Plague, +3 Withered Wretch, +2 Jitte, +2 Chill
Game 2: I get a Horror out and get him down to 12 before he drops an Engineered Explosives... Attacking again brings him to 5 before he can blow it... but I can't believe I didn't board in needles when I even saw a lot of other good targets! I'm an idiot The spectators somewhat distracted me... I get a Horror out (I forget how this all went) and swing for the last 5 with him trying to chump block.
Game 3: I turn 1 play a Stylus, he plays a Spiketail Hatchling, turn 2 try to decide whether to play a Delta or a Swamp to play Jitte, Hymn, or Infiltrator (or save him to transmute)... I switched it while thinking and he ends up making me keep the delta... I later found out why... I end up casting the Jitte and he says "if you have no dudes, why bother countering it... it sucks without them, so I'll just counter your creatures"... He untaps, wastelands my wretched Underground Sea and leaves me without Blue for the next 4 turns. I'm heartbroken. I cast Hymn to Tourach to be Dazed (missing that ****ing 3rd land)... then I sit there doing nothing for a few turns and he plays out another Hatchling and a Fanatic and ninjutsus some crap and beats in... I drop a Plague with 2 mana open so the Hatchlings couldn't stop it (not that it would matter since they probably would both die if it resolved)... I know I'm mixing up the story, but even though I duressed a Powder Keg away, he found 2 more and set one on 1 and one on 2.... Time in the round, but I can't stall him because I wasn't planning on doing something so low... I bring back an Infiltrator to block with (stronghold) but he burns it, then me... I die... He blew up my board with Kegs...
Round 3: Forget his name - UGw Threshold (my 2nd worst matchup)
This really sucks. Bad. I mentioned I played as I was leaving last week, and I couldn't win. He was using ALL Ravnica duals and taking 3 from fetching them, playing them, etc. It also let me know when he had a counterspell in hand because he'd take 2 to play them untapped and then do nothing.
Game 1: Needles all over the place with counter backup. I resolve a Vial, but it gets needled as usual. I have Horror, Stylus, Echoing Truth, Drake in hand. I decide to play the stylus, then the Drake (it gets countered).... I have 1 mana open only so I can't play the horror (in the hope he ran out of counters)... so I wait a turn and EOT bounce his Needles and put a Drawback-less horror into play. Swing.... Swords. YES LIFEGAIN... I hate playing vs. UGw Threshold... it's just not fair. I get beat in by Werebear and a Mystic Enforcer that I can't find a Gilded Drake, Echoing Truth, OR Dimir Infiltrator to deal with.
Sideboarding: I forget exactly, but the Withered Wretches came in and some Drakes came out... Jitte can be sworded, etc. I have nothing - maybe I should board Perish... only to have it countered. But seriously I need to board Chains of Mephistopheles.
Game 2: I play Vial - meets Needle. I play Wretch - meets Needle. (Turn 1, Turn 2) then I get Dark Confidant out and somewhat win from there. He Armageddons for instant-threshold, but never attacks so that he doesnt have to take 4 from my guys... anyway Dark Confidant gets me extra copies of the cards I need and I can Hymn out some counterspells and resolve an Echoing Truth. On his upkeep, I put 2 Hunted Horrors and a Dimir Infiltrator into play. I smash 2 of the 4 tokens and the other 2 can't even attack. He concedes in his Arnold Schwarzenegger voices.
Game 3: I draw okay, he lets Defense Grid resolve. Before I get my 4th turn, he swings with 2 3/3 Mongeese, and drops a THIRD Mongoose and a Werebear.... That's just not fair :(... I put out two chump blockers, with Dark Confidant, Wretch, Jitte in hand, but he swords'd one and my plans were kinda ruined... I go down to 1 and can't even use my stupid fetchland. He had 9 cards in his graveyard instead of 8, so playing Wretch and spending my 2 other mana to RFG his stuff would still let him have threshold (and he could probably regain it anyway next turn).... Losing freaking sucks.
New Sideboard Thoughts:
4 Pithing Needle
3 Withered Wretch
1-2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Hydroblast + 2 BEB
3 Chains of Mephistopheles (In the Eye of Chaos doesn't hurt Threshold enough, and Chains looks promising vs. both it and Solidarity... although Goblins has so much "non-draw" draw...)
So it seems my huge problems are Goblins and UGw Threshold...
Celebrating 3 years of open-minded acceptance, indispensable help, great advice, and incalculably-creative deck-design... Thanks for all the magic!
I do not think that Chains of Mephistopheles & In the Eye of Chaos are the answer that we are look for.
They are two completely different decks but they have one vital weekess an that is the lack of threats. I think that we need to abuse this weekess.
Maybe we needs Meddling Mage to help to set a semi-lock.
I'd do anything just to not have to buy Chains or In the Eye... they are more expensive than I originally thought they'd be on eBay...
EDIT: As suggested to me by Aaron Parks, I finally should get around to including a Pro-White 2cc option. Gets by Swords, and the non-BlackKnight three can take down threshold creatures. Nantuko Shade can do the job too, but can be swords'd. So the options are:
Hand of Cruelty (no)
Black Night (no)
Stromgald Crusader
Order of the Ebon Hand
The last two are the ones I'm leaning towards, and although Flying gets around Moat and can take down a Gilded Drake for BBB, I think First strike is better vs. Threshold, etc. so you don't lose the creature.
Next question: what to replace?
Celebrating 3 years of open-minded acceptance, indispensable help, great advice, and incalculably-creative deck-design... Thanks for all the magic!
When I get my new laptop I will help test the deck. I really like the consep
As for the Pro-white, all of them have something special but testing will only figure out what to put there.
I think an Edict might be nice for some non-targeting removal.
This deck looks interesting, and it seems to do you well I'm interested in playing it. That is, when I start to get some of the rares needed for this deck (jittes and fetchlands are a pain).
And white has alot to offer Mainly Meddling Mage and Swords ...
But that was already said, eh?
Add Standstill. You vial or transmute most of your guys, anyway...
Either that, or consider Shadowmage Infiltrator or something like it. Its fear is relevant, it wears a Jitte, and it nets you cards. Seems fair. Only drawback is its 3cc, so you can't go fetch one.
Chains won't help you too much against Threshold. Your main problem vs UGW is the fact that Mystic Enforcer has protection from black, so unless you resolve Gilded Drake (as if they'll allow THAT) he hits you in the head over and over. Also, making your Horror a farmer sucks for you. There's not a lot you can do about that, unless you choose to Duress out the Swords. (I would and have.)
Another Legends card you may wish to consider vs Threshold is Invoke Prejudice. They don't run black creatures, so it could help. I have no idea how much it costs...but its UUUU cost may turn you off. In the Eye of Chaos may be more effective. (Now I wish I hadn't traded my three. I'd give 'em to you if I still had them. :()
I am, however, under the firm belief that Chains is black's best answer to Solidarity. It just costs too damned much.
Some nontargeted kill effects could also be helpful. Nimble Mongoose is one of the most annoying creatures in all of MtG.
"I am in the arcane, and the arcane is in me."
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Deraxas, Dark Maiden of Shimia,, still oddly obsessed with a mindmage.
Rather than recounting here, I will simply post a link (hopefully this is okay since SCG is a business). I've editted the point I'd gotten to into the OP, but it's worth reading further (to see the red build, for example). The few times I played it (both casually and competitively), it ran well and since my interest is again piqued, I'll read this thread over, throw together a deck again, grab some ideas and come back to help out......thieves.
Edit - To throw in a little more content at this point: Tel-Jilad Stylus and Despotic Scepter are largely wasted space, in my opinion. (Combined with Brand..just noticed the Brand builds seem to have gone out the window) It makes for 8-12 combo cards that are largely useless should the deck be failing. In the deck above Other options (ie Powder Keg, Pernicious Deed,..., ) offer far greater general utility. They might lack the re-usability and cheapness of the Stylus, but their utility against decks such as Goblins is undeniable. I might try a 4 Echoing Truth, 4 Brand, 4 Powderkeg setup in a build allowing for red or 4 Echoing Truth, 4 Kegs, 2 Stylus and 2 Scepter in the B/U build that seems to be the going trend, but that's just a thought...
Isamaru didn't steal anything.:-/
Your decklist and his decklist are vastly different. Risking both spam and flame warnings, I'll say this now:
Please don't pop up out of nowhere and call an established member of this community a thief. That's pointless, stupid, and showing ignorance of what is truly going on. If you cared to research things, you would find that his list was originally posted on MTGNews, and refined since then.
So if the only reason you created an account here is to make unfounded accusations, go away.
"I am in the arcane, and the arcane is in me."
Official Matron Mother of Clan Planar Chaos
Awesome Avatar and signature by DarkNightCavalier
Deraxas, Dark Maiden of Shimia,, still oddly obsessed with a mindmage.
I guess the smiley is lost on you....in this case it denotes sarcasm. You'll also note that my post fails to note who was stealing from who, and although the implication was that it was stolen from me, the generality leaves it open for clever people to point out that his deck was indeed posted first.
Regardless, as should be obvious to most, I'm joining to get in on the discussion and offer what little I have learned so far.
(<-Here the smiley denotes 'no hard feelings' and 'just kidding around' so as to avoid the flame war you fear.)
EDIT - and to add some content and continue my edit in the last thread: How is it that Brand has been discounted so quickly? I noticed on the first page it was said to be too "vulnerable" and often "useless" but how is it any more so than the Scepter or Stylus? On the 3rd page of discussion it was brought up again with no conclusion. It's cheaper and has a broader effect than both, not to mention that it simply doesn't do away with Hunted Horror's negative ability (as the current choices do), it turns it into a potential win condition. Although my deck and experience with the idea is outdated in the face of the most current build here, it seemed that a splash of red offered multiple benefits (see the mostly red build[not mine] in the link above)...despite the cumulative upkeep even Varchild's War-Rider's was an interesting (although largely casual) addition.
I thought that when I began work on these decks that I was the first/only at the time. And I worked on this briefly before either of these discussions were posted. But it seems that several, if not many people had some of the same ideas. Isamaru was one of them, and Pure Budget, so were you. And there were some others as well. So there is actually little chance that anyone stole these ideas from anyone else.
I would like to add that Isamaru has put serious effort into this and deserves to be the one at the forefront of its evolution. But we would love to have you on the effort with us. New perspectives from experienced testers are always good. If you are interested, welcome aboard.