I find this claim thoroughly unlikely. It's hard to believe that two such minor characters would even be in the game
This is a dangerous line of thinking, especially for an Azrael specialty, and especially considering we have no pile of dead bodies to which to compare the claim validity.
On the surface, it's still a masonry claim and a poor target for day one. Axelrod's first question is legitimate, and should be answered. Beyond that, we should be pursuing other avenues.
@Axel: I'm not sure what you're hoping to accomplish with the second, but I'm a bit wary of ZDS answering that. You have my vote, so unlike loran, I'm entitled to an opinion.
Quote from atlseal »
@DYH: I always feel the need to provide some explaination to my voting pattern
This reminds me somewhat of Stormblind's behavior in DotA mafia. =/
@Axel: I'm not sure what you're hoping to accomplish with the second, but I'm a bit wary of ZDS answering that. You have my vote, so unlike loran, I'm entitled to an opinion.
I've got some problems with the claim. Having him say that much is going to help me decide whether or not to believe him. And also whether or not I want his hypothetical Mason buddy to come out and vouch for him.
Day 1 Mason gambit might seem unlikely on it's face. But I wouldn't put it past ZDS, so I'm not rolling over either.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Cmon now, you know a duke opinion is more valuble than that of a UNC grad.
That said, I'd prefer zds not answering that 2nd point. Yeah i can see him pulling a mason gambit, but on day 1, its not the day to test it.
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Quote from Seppel »
I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
Now, the logic in this case is sound (townies behavior is motivated to help the town) therefore if the premise is sound (I am a townie) then the conclusion is sound (My behavior, no matter what it seems like, is dedicated to helping the town).
Therefore, as long as AT SOME POINT IN THE GAME it is demonstrated that I am a townie (either by my death, or in my case by simply reading my role PM) then you (universal you, not neccesarily YOU) will know that my actions were clearly town aligned.
The point is, *I* know my alignment. Therefore, *I* can classify my behavior. I *cannot* classify *your* behavior.
Let's emphasize the key points here:
At no point did I say a word about proving anything to anyone and wheather or not that would be neccesary.
At no point did I suggest that this proves anything to anyone else right now
It's an effort in sophism. All I am saying is that I can trust my own motivations, but not anyone elses. When Is aid that the first time, someone questioned the logic on it. So I explained it out slowly.
Uh...huh. So here is your argument, in LOGIC101 form, as you basically state it but fail to actually phrase as such.
1. Townies behavior is motivated to help the town
2. I’m a townie.
3. Therefore, my actions were (and/or are) clearly town aligned.
We both know this is pure sohpistry, Grak, honestly. You fully admitted that using loaded terms were okay for you, but not for him:
Quote from Grak »
I'm allowed to use loaded language, because I'm a townie. If I mislead you, it's because I have your best interests in mind
I don’t actually care about “AT SOME POINT IN THE GAME”. Until we GET to that point of the game, that argument is NOT SOUND. I, and all the rest of the townies that don’t know your alignment at any given point in time, will never see that as a sound argument at that point in time. You can couch it in elementary logic as much as you want, but the fact remains – until the point when we (“we” being the uninformed town at any given point in time) get to the point in time that we see evidence that you’re a townie, there’s no way anyone would be stupid enough to take premise 2, and thus, the conclusion, at face value. Sure, Premise one is undeniably true, assuming all townies are perfectly rational, but #2…come on man, I’m not psychic, neither are any of the other players in this game (except ZDS of course ) so that really is a ridiculous justification.
So, once more I say. This is NOT a justification for your comments as far as the rest of the town is concerned, as we do not possess the same information you do, and it’s extremely illogical to assume otherwise.
I’d ask you not to speak down to us, please. Well, I would, if I hadn’t already done the same to you. I still believe this is an extremely silly justification, but calling it “retardspeak” was definitely over the line and into Canada. Apologies for that, I’ll keep my ad homs to myself.
I would recommend the hypothetical mason buddy stay hidden at this time, and only reveal themselves as a last resort. I am however interested in Axelrod's questions. Well, the first question at least. I agree the second is problematic and could be withheld for now.
Lastly, the way that atlseal just ate it up also seems dubious.
Does the way atlseal "ate it up" implies, in your opinion, he's scum with ZDS, scum independantly of ZDS, both, or neither? Inquiring minds want to know.
Okay, now that ZDS has responded (and the whole wagon was carried to completion), I may as well make the comment that I was going to:
This wagon seemed pretty spurious to me. While Axel did indeed point out something interesting, it's definitely not enough to make ZDS the play. There were only two plausible explanations for ZDS' comment: either he was privy to information about Suth's role, or he was talking out of his ass. The latter is incredibly more likely, but there's always the possibility of the first.
But even taking into account the former possibility, why would we string up ZDS first? Is it possible for ZDS to be scum and Suth to be town? I doubt it, as I don't see how a scum ZDS could have that kind of information about a town role before there was even a night period. So assuming the former basically implies you're assuming a ZDS-Suth scum team. The only way ZDS could be scum and Suth town is with the second scenario - ZDS was talking out of his ass.
For anyone who took ZDS's "slip" as sufficient evidence to press for a lynch, it stands to reason that lynching Suth would've been an even better play, yet no one even considered it. The way the wagon played out seems pretty indicative of a scum-motivated wagon on a townie, which boosts my belief of ZDS's claim and lowers my trust of several other players on that wagon.
For the record, since we didn't get a vote count during the height of the wagon, these were the people on it:
That was a lot of referring to yourself as part of the town collective there...
Interesting that you would hop on him for semantics, yet you dismiss my comment on your behavior reminding me of that of someone else who was scum with a flippant remark. Duly noted.
You seem anxious to find a new wagon. Don't like your name being involved in discussion?
I have to agree with Spoon - Grak is being ridiculous. For example, he's claiming (still) that he's able to use "fuzzy" language and whatnot because he says he's a townie. This is ridiculous. The fact that he persists is very troublesome, and it doesn't seem like a tactic of a townie. Still, I have a nagging suspicion that this might just be Grak being Grak.
And Grak, you missed my question. I want you to answer me again: if I say spoon boy isn't in the game, am I spoon boy?
Okay, now that ZDS has responded (and the whole wagon was carried to completion), I may as well make the comment that I was going to:
This wagon seemed pretty spurious to me. While Axel did indeed point out something interesting, it's definitely not enough to make ZDS the play. There were only two plausible explanations for ZDS' comment: either he was privy to information about Suth's role, or he was talking out of his ass. The latter is incredibly more likely, but there's always the possibility of the first.
But even taking into account the former possibility, why would we string up ZDS first? Is it possible for ZDS to be scum and Suth to be town? I doubt it, as I don't see how a scum ZDS could have that kind of information about a town role before there was even a night period. So assuming the former basically implies you're assuming a ZDS-Suth scum team. The only way ZDS could be scum and Suth town is with the second scenario - ZDS was talking out of his ass.
For anyone who took ZDS's "slip" as sufficient evidence to press for a lynch, it stands to reason that lynching Suth would've been an even better play, yet no one even considered it. The way the wagon played out seems pretty indicative of a scum-motivated wagon on a townie, which boosts my belief of ZDS's claim and lowers my trust of several other players on that wagon.
For the record, since we didn't get a vote count during the height of the wagon, these were the people on it:
Interestingly enough, Fade, you've left out Wizzpig who FOSed ZDS, RafK who called for a claim without a vote, and AG who made a wishy-washy push the wagon without voting, too.
Frankly, ZDS' play bothered me more than Sutherlands', which I had already pointed out, so I wasn't opposed to pursuing that angle with the addition of Axelrod's insight.
Interesting that you would hop on him for semantics, yet you dismiss my comment on your behavior reminding me of that of someone else who was scum with a flippant remark. Duly noted.
The reason I've voted him is because I've found from all I've played/read that particular way of talking is usually a scum tell. As for looking for a new wagon: ZDS's lynch isn't going to happen after a mason claim so of course I'm going to look into other avenues.
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If you're town and I'm mafia, you've already lost. You just don't know it yet.
For anyone who took ZDS's "slip" as sufficient evidence to press for a lynch, it stands to reason that lynching Suth would've been an even better play, yet no one even considered it. The way the wagon played out seems pretty indicative of a scum-motivated wagon on a townie, which boosts my belief of ZDS's claim and lowers my trust of several other players on that wagon.
For the record, since we didn't get a vote count during the height of the wagon, these were the people on it:
For the record, I was voting him because of his previous posts, not because of his "slip up." I was going to say that in all fairness to ZDS, I didn't think that point against him had merit, although I still thought he was scummy. Since apparently he is a mason, Unvote. Right now I'm looking at Axelrod. I didn't like his point, and I certainly don't like his vote-controlling ability, or DYH has a vote-giving ability?
Perhaps you don't know yet, but when you send a PM in this forum, you can send it to several persons at once. All that's left to do is mention the two players by (role)name, and that's it.
There's no need to be snide, Mr. Slipeur. That's what I assumed, but I wanted to hear you say it.
The reason I've voted him is because I've found from all I've played/read that particular way of talking is usually a scum tell.
You mean the "medium-sized" tell that Grak references earlier?
Quote from Grakthis »
Mafia conventions are blunt objects not precise tools.
Saying "acting defensive is a scum tell" is clearly a blunt weapon that will hit the wrong target pretty frequently. Because, let's be honest, townies often act defensive.
But that doesn't mean it can't be honed and used properly to catch scum. It just has to be more precise. You have to focus on *what* that player is being defensive about, what their *past* behavior is in similar situations and the *tone* of their posts.
The "medium sized" tell works in the same way (what you call being "too" townie). If you act too medium sized in a way that is forced, it can be a tell.
Which relates back to this:
Quote from atlseal »
@Xyre: Your last post was exactly how I think about that argument (being too defensive). I view it in the same light as the argument that someone is appearing so town that they must be mafia. Those arguments are so absurd that I have a hard time not yelling at my computer screen over them.
I mean, if people want to make those arguments, you must also argue that someone is appearing so scummy, they must be town. Completely ridiculous.
You are now voting spoon for trying to appear townie by using the collective. The "medium-sized" attack. Which is 1) contradictory in and of itself based on your prior statements, and 2) taken in the wrong context as spoon, himself, points out.
Quote from atlseal »
As for looking for a new wagon: ZDS's lynch isn't going to happen after a mason claim so of course I'm going to look into other avenues.
"Looking" and placing a flawed, desperate-looking vote are two entirely different things.
I dislike members that view mafia games in invisible mode, greatly.
I used to, and then I realized that games would run much smoother if everyone used inivisible mode, because no one would be metagaming. I certainly don't want to be metagamed, whether I'm town or mafia.
For the record, I was voting him because of his previous posts, not because of his "slip up." I was going to say that in all fairness to ZDS, I didn't think that point against him had merit, although I still thought he was scummy. Since apparently he is a mason, Unvote. Right now I'm looking at Axelrod. I didn't like his point, and I certainly don't like his vote-controlling ability, or DYH has a vote-giving ability?
As much as ZDS would love to have two votes, he's only showing 1 at the moment.
Also, it appears to be that DYH must proxy his votes to another. Axel didnt steal anything.
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Quote from Seppel »
I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
EBWODP, Alx, i think that comparison is hardly valid....I'm sure i can find a townie cyan saying that same thing.
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Quote from Seppel »
I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
And now, for something entirely different. Compare and contrast:
(post 350 of 24 mafia, for those who want to research).
Pretty amazing, huh? I officially take the townie point away from Cyan, and I would even go as far as FOS Cyan.
Although the point you are making here is hardly proof of anything, the fact that you bothered to look this up and make the argument is worth a lot in my book.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Although the point you are making here is hardly proof of anything, the fact that you bothered to look this up and make the argument is worth a lot in my book.
Are you serious? Putting extra effort into making a specious argument is indicative of towniness to you?
Although the point you are making here is hardly proof of anything, the fact that you bothered to look this up and make the argument is worth a lot in my book.
He was scum in that game with Cyan, and it wasn't that long ago.
Quote from Alx2 »
Go for it. I couldn't.
In the span of ninety minutes you searched through every game of Cyan's in which he was town and couldn't find this?
I'm calling shenaneghins. Or however the heck you spell it.
Sorry, I had to kind of skim over the last few pages. So Cyan, Wizzpig, RafK, and AG should be added to the list.
In any case, while I recognize that not everyone was following along on Axel's argument, I haven't had the time to sort out who was and who wasn't, so I put this list out there just so we have it on record.
And even though I've seen some questionable posts by ZDS, I still don't see him as scummier than Suth, who gave a weak reason to join the ZDS wagon (he got "scummy vibes" after four short posts, and then even after ZDS posted many more times with much more questionable content, he still stuck just to the "scummy vibes" justification), and has been unusually posting vote counts in every post except his first, and has offered basically nothing in terms of solid content.
And even though I've seen some questionable posts by ZDS, I still don't see him as scummier than Suth, who gave a weak reason to join the ZDS wagon (he got "scummy vibes" after four short posts, and then even after ZDS posted many more times with much more questionable content, he still stuck just to the "scummy vibes" justification), and has been unusually posting vote counts in every post except his first, and has offered basically nothing in terms of solid content.
Funny thing. . . I was reviewing the thread and didn't put any faith into the ZDS wagon. The reasoning was flimsy and hardly worthy of Axelrod. The fact that the wagon rolled so quickly is also telling. I have to believe that at least one player on that wagon is scum.
Are you serious? Putting extra effort into making a specious argument is indicative of towniness to you?
It's not always the quality of the argument being made Mr. Arimnaes, but the way you make it. And I've generally got a pretty good feel for when someone is making a genuine argument as opposed to manufacturing something "specious." Experience is the name of the game.
And now that the second half of the ZDS/Sutherlands equation has checked in and I've seen his reaction to that entire argument and wagon, I must say I'm underwhelmed. No reaction to ZDS picking up on his vote-count antics. Still thought he was scummy, mind you, but had nothing to say about that issue at all. Nor the fact that he skipped out on his first post. I'd say he's one of about four people in need of a review right about now.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
@ZDS: There's no reason to blindly accept any old mason claim, especially such a poorly conceived one. Hell, someone just got lynched, Day 1, on a shoddy mason claim in another game. I didn't come out and say 'omfg ZDS claim can't possibly be real, lets pile more votes on him'. I said that it is a dubious claim, which it is. Why didn't you just say it was a masonry to begin with? Why wait until someone else suggests it, and then go along with it?
Regardless of all of this, I think that atlseal has become a better target to look at. The way that he immediately bought ZDS' claim, plus his following posts don't do anything for him, and I would say that ZDS recent 'FoS' on him is really just distancing.
@Alx2: I'm not really sure. Well, I'm sure that I think atlseal is scum(hence, Unvote, Vote atlseal). I'm not sure whether or not ZDS is his scum buddy yet. I'm very slightly learning towards not, because of some posts by someone else that make him look better in my mind.
Arimnaes, was that an attempt to throw dust on Fadeblue ? (you don't need to answer otherwise than with a "yes").
Yes.
The only way to form a paper trail is with votes. Mr. Alx's poor reasoning for his casting suspicion wasn't what attracted my attention so much as the fact that instead of voting, he took away Mr. Cyan's "townie point" and fosed him.
Funny thing. . . I was reviewing the thread and didn't put any faith into the ZDS wagon. The reasoning was flimsy and hardly worthy of Axelrod. The fact that the wagon rolled so quickly is also telling. I have to believe that at least one player on that wagon is scum.
Yep, 1 person of 9 is scum....good odds. I hate statements like these.
@ZDS- Gonna actually give reasons why i'm scum rather than making stupid statements? It'd be very nice.
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Quote from Seppel »
I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
@ZDS: There's no reason to blindly accept any old mason claim, especially such a poorly conceived one. Hell, someone just got lynched, Day 1, on a shoddy mason claim in another game.
If you're referring to code geass, then the situations are not the same. That was not a mason claim. That was the perfect ideal scum claim by a new player who kept changing his story. They are not comparible.
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Quote from Seppel »
I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
Bah @ loran for beating me to a witty remark on LJustus' blanket statement.
HE STARTED IT ! </5 year old>
Also, you're welcome.
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Quote from Seppel »
I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
The only way to form a paper trail is with votes. Mr. Alx's poor reasoning for his casting suspicion wasn't what attracted my attention so much as the fact that instead of voting, he took away Mr. Cyan's "townie point" and fosed him.
Ah, the dreaded "scum FOS, protown players vote" argument. You are out of vogue. This generalization is normally considered too beaten up to be used even in newbie games.
Besides, you know full well votes are NOT everything that makes a paper trail. See post 335 not too long ago in this very game.
It seems like so many people have crappy attitudes this game. I don't really get it. Folks just seem to want to blow off the concerns of others, without really discussing them or giving them proper merit. Attitudes like that aren't beneficial to the town at all. Even if you don't like the points someone makes against you, you should still respect that they are making them, and respond in a logical, mature fashion, instead of so many people acting like hot-tempered teenagers. This is largely directed at alx, but also at ZDS, and Xyre. And Loran to a lesser extent.
And even though I've seen some questionable posts by ZDS, I still don't see him as scummier than Suth, who gave a weak reason to join the ZDS wagon (he got "scummy vibes" after four short posts, and then even after ZDS posted many more times with much more questionable content, he still stuck just to the "scummy vibes" justification), and has been unusually posting vote counts in every post except his first, and has offered basically nothing in terms of solid content.
1) I was the second person to vote for ZDS. Hardly a wagon at that point in time.
2) You're saying that me posting vote counts is scummy??
3) Let's look at your posts... I count 8 of them as I write this.
"Just checking in"
"Suth requires attention"
"Why Suth requires attention"
"I haven't had a chance to go through all the posts"
"There's a better play than ZDS"
Ohh... here's a post with some "content". Except... the thing is, you only gave your opinion out AFTER the fact. Once the ZDS wagon goes away, you tell what you think of it. And the second post with content is more fluff "I was wrong in my last post because of the people I didn't put on there and because not everyone was following Axelrod's argument, but Suth is scummy!"
So really you only have one post that's worth anything, and it was given after the fact. Of course, you could consider attacking me to be some content, but what reasoning have you given? Oh yeah, I didn't give reasons for voting for ZDS other than he was scummy and I'm posting vote counts. Oh yeah, and then you say arim is scummy but don't say why.
Ah, the dreaded "scum FOS, protown players vote" argument. You are out of vogue. This generalization is normally considered too beaten up to be used even in newbie games.
Besides, you know full well votes are NOT everything that makes a paper trail. See post 335 not too long ago in this very game.
@Cyan: Ok, ok, I'll play nice, too. But he's wrong. The FOS vs. Vote on a scum partner is still very much a worthwhile attack- but better used in hindsight.
I have to agree with Spoon - Grak is being ridiculous. For example, he's claiming (still) that he's able to use "fuzzy" language and whatnot because he says he's a townie. This is ridiculous. The fact that he persists is very troublesome, and it doesn't seem like a tactic of a townie. Still, I have a nagging suspicion that this might just be Grak being Grak.
That is Grak being Grak. It says absolutely nothing about his alignment.
@Sutherlands: I will echo what I said in elegant where we had a similar situation arise: I don't think that anything further should be done with the mason claim on Day 1. The only worrisome scenario that I am surprised no one has brought up is if ZDS has only one mason partner and dies tonite somehow. I remember that we had this discussion in View Askew when I got outted D1 as a mason. To recap: The problem that arises there is that we would have no real way to confirm them which has the potential to cause havok.
That is Grak being Grak. It says absolutely nothing about his alignment.
.
But its not helpful for the town. Statements like that in response to loaded biassed hypocritical PBPAs are scummy as hell, grak or not. And those pbpas are bad and inaccurate.
Grak can be grak if he wants, but the only things those'll do are either get him lynched or ignored, like chamber a lot of the times on this site. Which is not a fun way to play a game imo.
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Quote from Seppel »
I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
@Sutherlands: I will echo what I said in elegant where we had a similar situation arise: I don't think that anything further should be done with the mason claim on Day 1. The only worrisome scenario that I am surprised no one has brought up is if ZDS has only one mason partner and dies tonite somehow. I remember that we had this discussion in View Askew when I got outted D1 as a mason. To recap: The problem that arises there is that we would have no real way to confirm them which has the potential to cause havok.
???
If ZDS dies tonight, and the partner is in danger of being lynched tomorrow, or on any other day, all he needs to do is say "I am ZDS' mason partner". Unless counterclaimed by a suicidal scum, he should be OK at this point.
@DYH: every case needs to be measured by its own merits. The example you bring of scumbuddies FOSing each other has nothing to do with the situation in hand.
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This is a dangerous line of thinking, especially for an Azrael specialty, and especially considering we have no pile of dead bodies to which to compare the claim validity.
On the surface, it's still a masonry claim and a poor target for day one. Axelrod's first question is legitimate, and should be answered. Beyond that, we should be pursuing other avenues.
@Axel: I'm not sure what you're hoping to accomplish with the second, but I'm a bit wary of ZDS answering that. You have my vote, so unlike loran, I'm entitled to an opinion.
This reminds me somewhat of Stormblind's behavior in DotA mafia. =/
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
What a coincidence because, well, I'm not him.
I've got some problems with the claim. Having him say that much is going to help me decide whether or not to believe him. And also whether or not I want his hypothetical Mason buddy to come out and vouch for him.
Day 1 Mason gambit might seem unlikely on it's face. But I wouldn't put it past ZDS, so I'm not rolling over either.
Cmon now, you know a duke opinion is more valuble than that of a UNC grad.
That said, I'd prefer zds not answering that 2nd point. Yeah i can see him pulling a mason gambit, but on day 1, its not the day to test it.
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
Uh...huh. So here is your argument, in LOGIC101 form, as you basically state it but fail to actually phrase as such.
1. Townies behavior is motivated to help the town
2. I’m a townie.
3. Therefore, my actions were (and/or are) clearly town aligned.
We both know this is pure sohpistry, Grak, honestly. You fully admitted that using loaded terms were okay for you, but not for him:
I don’t actually care about “AT SOME POINT IN THE GAME”. Until we GET to that point of the game, that argument is NOT SOUND. I, and all the rest of the townies that don’t know your alignment at any given point in time, will never see that as a sound argument at that point in time. You can couch it in elementary logic as much as you want, but the fact remains – until the point when we (“we” being the uninformed town at any given point in time) get to the point in time that we see evidence that you’re a townie, there’s no way anyone would be stupid enough to take premise 2, and thus, the conclusion, at face value. Sure, Premise one is undeniably true, assuming all townies are perfectly rational, but #2…come on man, I’m not psychic, neither are any of the other players in this game (except ZDS of course ) so that really is a ridiculous justification.
So, once more I say. This is NOT a justification for your comments as far as the rest of the town is concerned, as we do not possess the same information you do, and it’s extremely illogical to assume otherwise.
I’d ask you not to speak down to us, please. Well, I would, if I hadn’t already done the same to you. I still believe this is an extremely silly justification, but calling it “retardspeak” was definitely over the line and into Canada. Apologies for that, I’ll keep my ad homs to myself.
That was a lot of referring to yourself as part of the town collective there...
The Matrix still wishes to know, of course, Mr. Slipeur. Do you have mod-confirmation?
Does the way atlseal "ate it up" implies, in your opinion, he's scum with ZDS, scum independantly of ZDS, both, or neither? Inquiring minds want to know.
This wagon seemed pretty spurious to me. While Axel did indeed point out something interesting, it's definitely not enough to make ZDS the play. There were only two plausible explanations for ZDS' comment: either he was privy to information about Suth's role, or he was talking out of his ass. The latter is incredibly more likely, but there's always the possibility of the first.
But even taking into account the former possibility, why would we string up ZDS first? Is it possible for ZDS to be scum and Suth to be town? I doubt it, as I don't see how a scum ZDS could have that kind of information about a town role before there was even a night period. So assuming the former basically implies you're assuming a ZDS-Suth scum team. The only way ZDS could be scum and Suth town is with the second scenario - ZDS was talking out of his ass.
For anyone who took ZDS's "slip" as sufficient evidence to press for a lynch, it stands to reason that lynching Suth would've been an even better play, yet no one even considered it. The way the wagon played out seems pretty indicative of a scum-motivated wagon on a townie, which boosts my belief of ZDS's claim and lowers my trust of several other players on that wagon.
For the record, since we didn't get a vote count during the height of the wagon, these were the people on it:
Alx2, Sutherlands, CP, Axelrod, atlseal, arimnaes, DYH (via Axel), loran16
Interesting that you would hop on him for semantics, yet you dismiss my comment on your behavior reminding me of that of someone else who was scum with a flippant remark. Duly noted.
You seem anxious to find a new wagon. Don't like your name being involved in discussion?
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
And Grak, you missed my question. I want you to answer me again: if I say spoon boy isn't in the game, am I spoon boy?
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
Interestingly enough, Fade, you've left out Wizzpig who FOSed ZDS, RafK who called for a claim without a vote, and AG who made a wishy-washy push the wagon without voting, too.
Frankly, ZDS' play bothered me more than Sutherlands', which I had already pointed out, so I wasn't opposed to pursuing that angle with the addition of Axelrod's insight.
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
The reason I've voted him is because I've found from all I've played/read that particular way of talking is usually a scum tell. As for looking for a new wagon: ZDS's lynch isn't going to happen after a mason claim so of course I'm going to look into other avenues.
@ZDS: What about Cyan?
1 Carrion Pigeons-Hawkeye7
2 Cyan-Grakthis, ZDS
1 Grakthis-Spoon
3 Loran16- Athos, ZDS, Vampyr
2 Spoon-Wizzpig, atlseal
1 Sutherlands- Dagger
1 xyre- Rafaelk
1 Vampyr-Arimnaes,
2 zedorkslipeur-CP, Cyan
Hey, you! Yeah, you behind the computer screen! You're unconstitutional.
America == Velociraptor
Play IRC mafia. (/join #mafia)
The point of my referring to myself as "town" was merely part of the context of the rebuttal of Grak's logic. For example.
"We" meaning the majority of the town that doesn't know Grak is town.
You sir, are voting me for no reason.
FoS: Atlseal.
If you and your confidant are two different characters, Mr. Slipeur, how did you share the same role PM?
I dislike members that view mafia games in invisible mode, greatly.
You mean the "medium-sized" tell that Grak references earlier?
Which relates back to this:
You are now voting spoon for trying to appear townie by using the collective. The "medium-sized" attack. Which is 1) contradictory in and of itself based on your prior statements, and 2) taken in the wrong context as spoon, himself, points out.
"Looking" and placing a flawed, desperate-looking vote are two entirely different things.
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
I used to, and then I realized that games would run much smoother if everyone used inivisible mode, because no one would be metagaming. I certainly don't want to be metagamed, whether I'm town or mafia.
1 Carrion Pigeons-Hawkeye7
2 Cyan-Grakthis, ZDS
1 Grakthis-Spoon
3 Loran16- Athos, ZDS, Vampyr
2 Spoon-Wizzpig, atlseal
1 Sutherlands- Dagger
1 xyre- Rafaelk
1 Vampyr-Arimnaes,
2 zedorkslipeur-CP, Cyan
Hey, you! Yeah, you behind the computer screen! You're unconstitutional.
America == Velociraptor
Play IRC mafia. (/join #mafia)
(post 350 of 24 mafia, for those who want to research).
Pretty amazing, huh? I officially take the townie point away from Cyan, and I would even go as far as FOS Cyan.
As much as ZDS would love to have two votes, he's only showing 1 at the moment.
Also, it appears to be that DYH must proxy his votes to another. Axel didnt steal anything.
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
Go for it. I couldn't.
Although the point you are making here is hardly proof of anything, the fact that you bothered to look this up and make the argument is worth a lot in my book.
He was scum in that game with Cyan, and it wasn't that long ago.
In the span of ninety minutes you searched through every game of Cyan's in which he was town and couldn't find this?
I'm calling shenaneghins. Or however the heck you spell it.
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
Sorry, I had to kind of skim over the last few pages. So Cyan, Wizzpig, RafK, and AG should be added to the list.
In any case, while I recognize that not everyone was following along on Axel's argument, I haven't had the time to sort out who was and who wasn't, so I put this list out there just so we have it on record.
And even though I've seen some questionable posts by ZDS, I still don't see him as scummier than Suth, who gave a weak reason to join the ZDS wagon (he got "scummy vibes" after four short posts, and then even after ZDS posted many more times with much more questionable content, he still stuck just to the "scummy vibes" justification), and has been unusually posting vote counts in every post except his first, and has offered basically nothing in terms of solid content.
Proxy vote to ZDS
Frankly, I'm losing faith in Axelrod, and I'm buying on the mason claim.
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
Oh wait.
I never said Suth was worthy of a vote from me yet. I was actually considering voting you in that last post.
It's not always the quality of the argument being made Mr. Arimnaes, but the way you make it. And I've generally got a pretty good feel for when someone is making a genuine argument as opposed to manufacturing something "specious." Experience is the name of the game.
And now that the second half of the ZDS/Sutherlands equation has checked in and I've seen his reaction to that entire argument and wagon, I must say I'm underwhelmed. No reaction to ZDS picking up on his vote-count antics. Still thought he was scummy, mind you, but had nothing to say about that issue at all. Nor the fact that he skipped out on his first post. I'd say he's one of about four people in need of a review right about now.
Regardless of all of this, I think that atlseal has become a better target to look at. The way that he immediately bought ZDS' claim, plus his following posts don't do anything for him, and I would say that ZDS recent 'FoS' on him is really just distancing.
@Alx2: I'm not really sure. Well, I'm sure that I think atlseal is scum(hence, Unvote, Vote atlseal). I'm not sure whether or not ZDS is his scum buddy yet. I'm very slightly learning towards not, because of some posts by someone else that make him look better in my mind.
The only way to form a paper trail is with votes. Mr. Alx's poor reasoning for his casting suspicion wasn't what attracted my attention so much as the fact that instead of voting, he took away Mr. Cyan's "townie point" and fosed him.
Yep, 1 person of 9 is scum....good odds. I hate statements like these.
@ZDS- Gonna actually give reasons why i'm scum rather than making stupid statements? It'd be very nice.
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
If you're referring to code geass, then the situations are not the same. That was not a mason claim. That was the perfect ideal scum claim by a new player who kept changing his story. They are not comparible.
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
Bah @ loran for beating me to a witty remark on LJustus' blanket statement.
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
HE STARTED IT ! </5 year old>
Also, you're welcome.
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
Ah, the dreaded "scum FOS, protown players vote" argument. You are out of vogue. This generalization is normally considered too beaten up to be used even in newbie games.
Besides, you know full well votes are NOT everything that makes a paper trail. See post 335 not too long ago in this very game.
1) I was the second person to vote for ZDS. Hardly a wagon at that point in time.
2) You're saying that me posting vote counts is scummy??
3) Let's look at your posts... I count 8 of them as I write this.
"Just checking in"
"Suth requires attention"
"Why Suth requires attention"
"I haven't had a chance to go through all the posts"
"There's a better play than ZDS"
Ohh... here's a post with some "content". Except... the thing is, you only gave your opinion out AFTER the fact. Once the ZDS wagon goes away, you tell what you think of it. And the second post with content is more fluff "I was wrong in my last post because of the people I didn't put on there and because not everyone was following Axelrod's argument, but Suth is scummy!"
So really you only have one post that's worth anything, and it was given after the fact. Of course, you could consider attacking me to be some content, but what reasoning have you given? Oh yeah, I didn't give reasons for voting for ZDS other than he was scummy and I'm posting vote counts. Oh yeah, and then you say arim is scummy but don't say why.
Vote fadeblue*
1 Alx2-arimnaes
1 atlseal-Cyan
1 Carrion Pigeons-Hawkeye7
2 Cyan-Grakthis, ZDS
1 Grakthis-Spoon
3 Loran16- Athos, Vampyr, DYH
2 Spoon-Wizzpig, atlseal
1 Sutherlands- Dagger
1 xyre- Rafaelk
2 zedorkslipeur-CP
(*blah blah blah OMGUS, WIFOM, etc, etc)
Hey, you! Yeah, you behind the computer screen! You're unconstitutional.
America == Velociraptor
Play IRC mafia. (/join #mafia)
Bollocks. That's a perfectly legitimate attack.
Both Bat and Cyan were scum.
See, I can find one example, too.
EWP:
@Cyan: Ok, ok, I'll play nice, too. But he's wrong. The FOS vs. Vote on a scum partner is still very much a worthwhile attack- but better used in hindsight.
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
That is Grak being Grak. It says absolutely nothing about his alignment.
@Sutherlands: I will echo what I said in elegant where we had a similar situation arise: I don't think that anything further should be done with the mason claim on Day 1. The only worrisome scenario that I am surprised no one has brought up is if ZDS has only one mason partner and dies tonite somehow. I remember that we had this discussion in View Askew when I got outted D1 as a mason. To recap: The problem that arises there is that we would have no real way to confirm them which has the potential to cause havok.
But its not helpful for the town. Statements like that in response to loaded biassed hypocritical PBPAs are scummy as hell, grak or not. And those pbpas are bad and inaccurate.
Grak can be grak if he wants, but the only things those'll do are either get him lynched or ignored, like chamber a lot of the times on this site. Which is not a fun way to play a game imo.
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
If he has one mason partner, then the partner would merely state so if he were about to be lynched. I fail to see the problem.
???
If ZDS dies tonight, and the partner is in danger of being lynched tomorrow, or on any other day, all he needs to do is say "I am ZDS' mason partner". Unless counterclaimed by a suicidal scum, he should be OK at this point.
@DYH: every case needs to be measured by its own merits. The example you bring of scumbuddies FOSing each other has nothing to do with the situation in hand.