MTG Salvation

Quote from Axelrod

The thing about Atlseal is this:

(1) not likely to be day-killer, evidenced by fact that daykiller apparently tried to kill him. Unless he was allowed to fake a kill attempt on himself which is wrong for all kinds of reasons.

(2) not likely to be allied with Loran, for reasons of their interactions.

So if he's not the daykiller (who is almost certainly this games SK), and he's not scum with Loran, then what is he?

The people voting him appear to be doing so because they don't like his claim. Think it's too convenient/too powerful/too something. Or they just don't like the way he string-claimed. Now, I can see those points, I really can, but what is your conclusion, folks? You can't just say "I don't like the claim - Vote Atlseal." What do you think he is? Do you think he's the SK, despite being shot at? Do you think he's Mafia and he and Loran were just doing this very impressive distancing thing the entire time? Do you agree he isn't likely to be allied with Loran, but you are so much convinced of his scumminess otherwise that you feel he simply must be some other kind of (unclearly identified) scum?

I think everyone voting him needs to be very clear on their reasons. I don't like the claim either, and it does make me uneasy, but logically, I just don't see him being Mafia or SK.

I'm voting atl because I think his claim stinks, his result was less than convincing and his lack of what I feel is lying through omission when he became vanilla.

The abilities atl claimed all could be replicated by scum. Yes, he did give us a result on an anti-town player, but I'd be more convinced if he found a scum. Plus, his reasoning for whom he targeted, and why, struck me as really odd. As far as what I consider "lying," the way I look at it, the moment the abilities I have informed the town I have disappear, I'm posting about it to let people know. I mean, to me this is what I'd expect a townie to do who has nothing to hide. Atl's failure to come forth as soon as it happened makes me believe that he didn't want the town to know. How does that help the town? How does that help him? He'd already drawn enough suspicion that if he is town, the scum weren't likely to NK him. I just don't see why he waited to inform the town of the loss of his abilities. For me, this last point is what sticks out the most and the primary reason I'm voting him.

As for his role, I would agree that it's very unlikely he's the day killer. When I read your post, I was gothinking he could easily be a second neutral role, then in typing up the response I remembered there was a second neutral role, the Cult. At this point I think it'd be a stretch to assume a third neutral. I'm left with believing he's scum. Yes, he and loran did do such distancing, but atl was also in Elegant where CP and Fade made what I consider (in my limited mafia experience) the most impressive example of distancing between scum. So I believe it's possible that loran and atl were distancing.

EBWODP:

I should note that I'm pseudo-voting atlseal, and willing to vote whenever. I have not sent my vote in at this time.

Speaking of which, was there any indication that we'd be able to switch votes by resubmitting a vote to Az? I just remembered the vote locking ability from DoTA.

I think that Loran's actions towards atlseal make it more likely that atlseal is scum, actually, not less so. If you've read any games where Loran is scum, without fail, he tries to throw one of his scum partners under the bus. I believe that, in this case, they are likely scum buddies. Atlseal is probably a role cop, or possibly a scum JoAT(with a 1 shot investigation, protection, roleblock). Loran's day 1 play was pretty awful, and I imagine that he went into the day in a fairly desperate mindset. As soon as Atlseal posted his findings, Loran decided to go after him, under the premise that, if he was somehow successful, Loran would come out smelling like roses(this is somewhat of a fallacy, but, one that Loran follows often). The scum would just NK the Cult Leader anyway, if Loran somehow talked everyone into lynching atlseal. If not, and Loran ended up getting lynched, it would make atlseal look better because of 'distancing'(which is what is happening now). Loran's mindset as scum seems to be that of 'ever man for himself'...to the point that he has, to this point, always aggressively gone after one of his scum partners. I don't really see why this game would be any different.

@Vamp: I don't think that the vote locking is in effect here..it was abundantly clear when that was put into place in DotA.

Quote from Cyan

@Vamp: I don't think that the vote locking is in effect here..it was abundantly clear when that was put into place in DotA.

I don't know if I'd say "abundantly" clear. There was indication that something was amiss (votes in red), but no one recognized the indicators immediately and there were 2-3 votes placed before someone, you maybe, attempted to unvote and realized there was a problem.

I'm not saying it's likely, but I'd say it's worthwhile in being cautious about it.

Has everyone checked in since I started talking about the Flowers? Has everyone said whether or not they were targeted with a piece of Cake? Because it's looking like the Flowers were a 1 time thing and the cake didn't happen, is that right?

Sorry, I've never been targeted by either of those. The only person to target me ever was Dagger, and there is no mystery to his ability whatsoever(nor is there need to share what it does)


But it seems that whomever sent the flowers apparently just isn't owning up to it, and no one seems to have received a piece of cake last night. I dunno. So much going on in this game, it's still hard to keep track of.

Quote from Puzzle

5. #2337 : atlseal refusing Xyre's spoon. Now knowing that the spoon allegedly made townies untargettable, why would someone refuse it ? It would be easy to see if the effect is not the one Xyre described.
Answer : because atlseal wouldn't have become untargettable.
Vote atlseal.

Well, we had already established that the Spoon doesn't make you untargetable. I took a Spoon and immediately got targeted successfully by Dagger.

Incidentally, this is a minor point in Dagger's favor.

We still don't know exactly what the Spoon does. Possibly it protects from being Cultified? Possibly it would stop Hawkeye's ability? Possibly it gives some kind of protection? This is what bothers me the most about Xyre's claim, even though I like his interactions with Loran, just the fact that he apparently doesn't understand what his own ability does and Az isn't telling him.

Quote from Axelrod

Has everyone checked in since I started talking about the Flowers? Has everyone said whether or not they were targeted with a piece of Cake? Because it's looking like the Flowers were a 1 time thing and the cake didn't happen, is that right?

I was targeted by the cake once, and never by flowers and I never got a mention of the spoon when Xyre was unable to target me.

Quote from ZeDorkSlipeur

Cyan is right that Loran is pretty well known for his tendency to randomly bus his partners.
So the question should be, what of atlsleal's play toward Loran (as opposed as Loran's toward atlseal) ?

I'm thinking of something about the cake.
We know it does two things : make untargetable, and roleblock. We also assume it is a scum ability, due to the choice of targets.
With that in mind, wouldn't it be possible that the merovingian (or whoever the cake-giver is) targetted a scum partner ?
In which case it would make sense that he'd be affraid of coming out.

Unless Loran was the cake-giver ? Does anyone know what a "permablocker" do anyway ?

Right. The Cake thing might be a "make target player untargetable" kind of ability. I've had that ability as a scum before. You can use it on a townie and pretend you are a Doc, or just to create confusion. You can also use it on your scum-buddies.

That would not explain why Xyre couldn't use his ability though.

So could it be "make target player untargetable and unable to use any abilities they might have." That's a bit more convoluted. Maybe possible.

I have been assuming "permablocker" is something that makes a player lose their ability forever. Kind of what fade has claimed to have.

@Fadeblue: it that your title - "permablocker?"

This would be a minor point in fade's favor as well.

No, my title isn't "permablocker."

I was also assuming that Permablocker meant loran could permanently roleblock players (as the name suggests), but we at least know that Xyre was no longer blocked last night. The Cake also sounds more like it's an "isolator"-type ability, which stops all actions in or out.

Just to clarify: there is a difference between my role and a permanent roleblock, since my role also removes passive abilities.

Quote from ZeDorkSlipeur

Based on the name it makes sense, but this is harsh, and doesn't make that much sense based on facts.
With that, any power role who claims instantly becomes almost vanilla. That's damn powerful on a scum.
Except, thing is, of the several claimed roles we have, only two have claimed to be roleblocked (Grak and Xyre), both by the cake. None of them has lost their ability forever.

Was anyone roleblocked other than the two I've mentionned ?

Again, I was not neccesarily roleblocked, as I used no ability that night.

Vote-locking is not in effect.

Quote from Grakthis

Again, I was not neccesarily roleblocked, as I used no ability that night.

We're just assuming it would have had the same effect on you as it did on Xyre.

Altseal was here but did not answer my question. Let me ask it again:

Atlseal, why were you using the Smith Avatar at the end of the day yesterday?

Hey, atl, if you're vanilla, could you do us a favor and use a in your next post? I have a suspicion.

Anyway, I tracked down my PM on the cake. Apparently, the cake was laced with what was probably a laxative, and so I ran to the bathroom and locked the door. That might explain the untargetability whatever.

Really, Xyre? So laxatives make you untargetable? I'll have to remember that.

I thought we knew what the cake was about, and it wasn't that. I need to go back and find the relevant posts.

No, that coincides with what Grak said when he initially received the cake as well. The laxatives bit is obviously just flavor, but here's what we can tell about the cake:

It makes you untargetable, while also roleblocking you.

Quote from Puzzle

3. I'm more and more believing AG is scum. That is, until I finish reading and discover he's a guaranteed townie...

I don't remember that happening. Did I miss something?

I would like to hear from atlseal re: using the smith avatar (because a claimed vanilla using the smith avatar and muddying the waters is ).

Re: cake. In the movies the Merovingian sent a cake to a beautiful woman which caused said women to have an orgasm and run off the toilet to be in private while it happened. Not quite a laxative effect. Though Azrael isn't bound to follow the movies, of course.

I'm sure someone has one made up already so I ask, could someone post the list of claimed roles and abilities?

This is very rough.

1. Spoon - No claim
2. Fadeblue - can make people lose all their abilities. Used on Puzzle Night 3.
3. Rafaelk - No claim
4. Axelrod - John Connor, Townie Mentor
5. J-Effe IV (Replacing Wizzpig) - No claim
6. Hawkeye7 - Truman, one time can force someone to use a particular Avatar.
7. Grakthis - 2 abilities one day and one Night. The day abilitiy is multiple use, the Night ability is 1 time only and has some dramatic effect that needs to be used on a townie. Targeted by Cake Night 1. Targeted Atlseal day 1. Can't remember if he said who else he targeted during the days.
8. Alx2 - can sometimes, under the right circumstances, get someone's rolename. Targeted Grakthis Night 1 (couldn't find). Not sure if he revealed anything else.
9. Abbeygargoyle - No claim
10. Cyan - Terminator, bodyguard for John Connor. 2 lives.
11. Xyre - Spoon Boy, can send 2 spoons that prevent people's codes from being altered. Targeted Axelrod Night 1 (accepted). Blocked by Cake Night 2. Targeted Atlseal Night 3 (refused).
12. ZDS - Dujour, Mason. Given a Watcher ability on Night 1. Watched Puzzle Night 3 and saw fade target him. Don't remember if he said about Night 2.
13. Vampyr - Choi, Mason
14. Carrion Pigeons - three votes Day 1. Don't think he demonstrated more than 2 votes on Day 2, and nothing else since.
15. Dagger - Targeted Cyan Night 1, Targeted Axelrod Night 2. Hasn't said who he targeted Night 3.
16. Puzzle (replacing Charmmaster3125, replacing Sorryguy, replacing Sutherlands, replacing H_C, replacing MJM, replacing Sutherlands) - The Oracle, must post a vote count in every post and can then choose her replacement. Vanillified by Fadeblue on Night 3.
17. Atlseal - The Cheshire Cat, JoAT + dodge kill. Targeted Athos (Kraj) Night 1 with inspection. Dodged a kill Day 2. Now vanilla.

Quote from Xyre

Anyway, I tracked down my PM on the cake. Apparently, the cake was laced with what was probably a laxative, and so I ran to the bathroom and locked the door. That might explain the untargetability whatever.

I doubt that it was a laxative as RafeK said. The cake flavor indicates that it is the Merovingian behind the cake-giving (he is the only character that gives cake in the movies).

Quote from wikipedia »

The Beautiful Woman at Le Vrai, played by Tory Musset, appears in The Matrix Reloaded in the scene where Neo, Trinity and Morpheus meet the Merovingian in his restaurant, Le Vrai. The Merovingian tells them about cause and effect and demonstrates his point by sending a slice of chocolate cake to the woman. The cake is actually a program that causes her to have an intense and embarrassing orgasm. Afterward, she leaves and is not seen again. The Merovingian meets her later in the restroom for a tryst; although it is not stated that he leaves for that, Persephone knows his intentions and, because of this, leads Neo, Morpheus, and Trinity to the Keymaker.

I think the point is that the cake roleblocks you and makes you untargetable for the night at the same time. I'm not sure why we're so stuck on whether or not it's a laxative, etc.

@RafK: I think Puzzle was just making a sarcastic comment regarding the fact that he keeps finding people suspicious, only to later find that they've already claimed and are still alive.

Quote from Puzzle

RafK hinting at being untargettable very early (dawn of day 2 after Alx2 mentioned not getting someone) is not something I'd expect from him as a townie.

This could be a subtle hint to the mafia not to NK him. Of course, in that case he'd be the SK...

Quote from Puzzle

And I'm leaning towards RafK and CP being scum too, mostly by elimination.


Spoon is the one that worries me most next.

Nice. I had already reached that conclusion since several days. The main difference is that I'd rather see Alx2 as scum than AG. Still, with the SK, it is more than likely we have at least 5 bad guys left, so...

Oh, but I was not being sarcastic or anything. It's really nice to see that someone actually reaches the same conclusion as I, when I told nothing about this. You have done a good job catching up with this game.

Raf and CP are on my "most confirmed" list :wacko:

CP's multi-vote is real. I'm surprised more people haven't figured out how it works.

Quote from Spoon

CP's multi-vote is real. I'm surprised more people haven't figured out how it works.

It's "real," but we don't know yet to what extent. Is there a maximum? Do they actually count towards a lynch? Can he split them up? His ability is still not yet guaranteed to be town (and his revealing it on D1 for no good reason is a strike against him), and we unfortunately can't learn any more about it today with the vote count hidden.

I guess that's fair enough.

I'm going to go ahead and answer all the questions to me I could find really quickly. See, here in Atlanta, we have a thing called DragonCon this weekend which is going to be keeping me busy till sometime Monday afternoon.

Quote from Axelrod »

Question for atlseal, however: Why were you using the Smith Avatar at the end of the day yesterday?

I could have sworn I already answered this question, to which I'll again say, "do people just not read my posts?"

... However, upon further going back to see, I didn't actually post it. It was just because of an insatiable curiosity. Of which, I can say that no bad seems to happen if you use it. Now, I know nobody can take my word on it, but it is the truth.

Quote from Puzzle »

Can you say how likely you'd think two two-life townies to be in the game, one of them being a bodyguard ?

Not having ever played in an Az game, but reading Sin City, I've come prepared for pretty much anything.

@Puzzle: Why I didn't take the spoon: I thought I've made this clear (you maybe didn't get to it), but I don't believe Xyre one iota about what he claims the spoons do. None of it really makes any sense.

Quote from atlseal

@Puzzle: Why I didn't take the spoon: I thought I've made this clear (you maybe didn't get to it), but I don't believe Xyre one iota about what he claims the spoons do. None of it really makes any sense.

See the part where I said that I wasn't positive, that Az was deliberately vague on that, and that I made an educated guess. You not taking the spoon only means that I have one more spoon to use. I can completely understand the suspicion.

Problems I have with certain players:

Rafaelk - He hinted at untargetability. Granted, it might be an ability that is equally possible on townies, but I still think such an ability benefits a GF or a SK the most.

J-Effe IV - His reasonings hadn't really been stellar on the HE wagon, especially when he tried to link it with loran's. But he claimed having a 'townish role' that he would only prefer to reveal later...

Grakthis - Until I see proof of said ability, I am pretty much going to doubt whether his claimed ability even exist.

Xyre - His own cluelessness about the effects of his own ability rankles me the most.

Carrion Pigeons - Apparently there are something more than meet the eyes with regards to his multivoting ability. I want to know what it is, and soon.

Atlseal - A complex role which grows increasingly complex as the days pass by. Claimed JoaT with -2 lynch drawback -> Vanilla upon being killed -> Bad intentioned ability instead of kill

Okay, Az got back to me.

atlseal, why did you feel the need to lie?

Vote atlseal

Quote from Xyre

Okay, Az got back to me.

atlseal, why did you feel the need to lie?

Vote atlseal

Lie?

And it's another beautiful day in paradise, folks, but don't forget to buckle up out there.

Quote from Xyre

Okay, Az got back to me.

atlseal, why did you feel the need to lie?

Vote atlseal

There's no point in trying to explain it, but a lot of strange things have been happening.
Wait a minute. Yes there is.
What do you mean by this Xyre?

Why, yes, it seems that our friend hasn't told us the whole truth. But I'll let him say his part.

Quote from Dagger

Problems I have with certain players:

Rafaelk - He hinted at untargetability. Granted, it might be an ability that is equally possible on townies, but I still think such an ability benefits a GF or a SK the most.

Can I cut this off here before yet another person seizes on Puzzle's comment as if it was their own? I'm not untargetable; that "hint" was me laying a trap for someone I thought might be being untruthful, and had he said "yeah, I tried to target you and it didn't work" I would have been rather happy to bust him.

After 3 nights and 4 days, in which some people even have multiple abilities (or claim to), I would be a little bit surprised if someone hadn't already tested that out actually.

Cool, we can learn another aspect of atlseal's ever revolving/evolving/nonsense role.

Can't we just lynch him already and move on? Enough incosistencies/suspicion/scummiess has been tied to him to easily justify it and his prescence is hanging like an albatross on this game.

The day rolls on. But the town's decision remains deadlocked. Finally, J-Effe IV strides forth from the assembled crowd like an elder statesman, intent on delivering a stirring oratory. He never gets the chance.

As he opens his mouth, his teeth come flying out of his mouth in shards. Blood spills from his panting mouth like a fountain, and the silver pen in his hand slips from his fingers, and rolls along the floor until it is caught by the stream of rainwater and carried away. Those nearby rush to catch him before he hits the ground, but it is already too late.

J-Effe IV, The Architect, Townie Roleblocker/Voyeurism Expediter, has been killed.

With 16 alive, it is 9 to lynch.

Quote from ZeDorkSlipeur

I have a feeling atl's answer to Xyre will be "uh ?" and then Xyre will have to give explanations by himself anyway >.>.

Funny how I have the same sentiment.

On J-Effe: The kill flavor is different? I don't see a gun shot anywhere.

EWP: Okay, the one first post stated 'suffered dentistry by bullet', whatever that means.

I am starting to warm up to the idea of lynching ATL.

Like, immagine his "vanish" was actually a mafia GROUP ability? First mafia member targeted by a kill is blah blah blah. It would fit for a group that is composed around manipulating the code of the matrix.

It still doesn't explain why they would investigate Kraj with a mafia investigator, unless they knew something we didn't or unless they were searching for the doc.

And refusing the spoon, or lying about refusing the spoon, still rings false to me. I mean, if it were offered to me, there is no way I would have refused it. I'd have wanted to find out what it did.

I'm gonna wait for him to answer Xyre's accusation before I decide it needs to be a vote.

Dagger still needs to die too, though.

Quote from Grakthis

Like, immagine his "vanish" was actually a mafia GROUP ability? First mafia member targeted by a kill is blah blah blah. It would fit for a group that is composed around manipulating the code of the matrix.

Needless speculation.

Quote from Grakthis

And refusing the spoon, or lying about refusing the spoon, still rings false to me. I mean, if it were offered to me, there is no way I would have refused it. I'd have wanted to find out what it did.

How did you know that particular lie was about refusing the spoon or not?

Quote from Grakthis

Dagger still needs to die too, though.

Thank you. The feelings are not entirely mutual, but yeah, I get your point.

Fine, fine. It seems that atlseal isn't going to show, and I doubt he'll come clean.

Apparently, according to my confirmation PM, atlseal actually did take the spoon. I'm curious as to why he would say the opposite... unless there's a good deal he's not telling us.

Woo! Let's lynch him.

Quote from Dagger

Needless speculation.

How did you know that particular lie was about refusing the spoon or not?

Thank you. The feelings are not entirely mutual, but yeah, I get your point.

I love how you started getting all defensive as soon as I started mentioning that you were on the top of my list.

Any reason why?

Quote from Grakthis

I love how you started getting all defensive as soon as I started mentioning that you were on the top of my list.

Any reason why?

You mean as of my response in #2571 to your post in #2570?

How about you play more games with me then?

Vote sent in on atl.

I don't see why altseal would lie about that, it's weird. I mean, Xyre said when he gave me the first Spoon that he got confirmation from Az that it had deployed correctly. How could atlseal think that he could lie about something like that?

Also, I'm underwhelmed by Raf's "it was a trap" response to why he hinted that he might be untargetable back on Day 2. How's that supposed to work: (1) a scum Alx says "Hey, I tried to target someone but it failed, so I think they're untargetable, (2) townie Raf goes (to himself) "Ah ha! If I ask if his target was me, I may trap him!" (3) Scum Alx goes (to himself) "hm, I really didn't target Raf, but since he's asking me if I did, that probably means he's actually untargetable, and maybe it would be a good idea to fake like I did target him. (why???) (4) Raf goes: "Ha! I am totally not untargetable, you are lying scum!"

Does that make any sense? From either Raf's or Alx's point of view? What kind of "trap" would that be?