What's 'funny' is how you're completely ignoring Axel's actual point there. Funny, and typical for you, in this game. And of course, you've resorted to the tried-and-true scum tell, calling any attack on you that comes from someone that is suspicious of you, but that you've attacked before 'OMGUS'. But please, keep posting, make it more clear that you're scum.
What?! Look at the initial post; he is dead. Deceased. Kaputt. Indefinitely horizontal. In mafia games, you see, people are occasionally "killed off," and when that sad event occurs, he or she is no longer allowed to post, on account of rigor mortis and what-have-you.
'Welcome to Mafia Salvation', it said, 'Population: 3,660.' And someone, they never figured out who, had painted on the sign in red letters: '1,831 to lynch.'
I've been "throwing mud" on the masons while not voting for them. Am I scum? Why aren't you voting for me?
You know, you've been saying how remarkably townie Raf. has seemed to you since forever. And this is one of the larger strikes against you, frankly. Since I think most reasonable people would agree that Raf. has not done anything especially townie-like in this game (nor especially scummy-like so far as I recall, which would be one reason why he's still around). But you've really got no reason to be expressing such an opinion, especially in light of his nutso claim.
Quote from Rafaelk »
It's really funny how you keep trying to insist you're "cleared" and that I'm scum, and then when I point out the holes in your reasoning you're all "stop throwing mud at me, you scum!"
Where was I insisting I was "cleared" again? Where exactly were these illusory holes in my reasoning you are referring to?
Quote from Rafaelk »
Bonus points- Neo or Sarah Edmonson, why would I want to kill Morpheus? If Morpheus is on the town side, why would Sarah be SK?
John Connor, original one, created by Zion to kill machines though...
And here you just go off the deep end, don't you? Seriously trying to make an argument that if Morpheus is town (which we don't even know, but I'm willing to accept for now), then "Neo" should be town too. As though the "Kid" who worshiped Neo and followed him everywhere, wouldn't be on the same side as Neo if that kind of linking could be made at all.
But even going past that, both Neo and John Connor were "the One" (if you accept Azrael's version of Matrix history - and I don't hear you saying you don't think I'm really John Connor) and were "created" by the Machines for the same purpose. The flavor for either role to be town (or scum) would be the same.
And, gee, the Twins were "machines" right? They didn't even have real bodies in the real world. There is no corrolation between these role-names and townieness. Your attempt to argue same smacks of desperation.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
What's 'funny' is how you're completely ignoring Axel's actual point there.
Funny because he didn't make a point? I agree. Totally funny.
I tell you what, Cyan. If you can find his "actual point" in that post and show where i "ignore" it, I'll let you off the hook for your HE7 screw up.
Quote from Cyan »
Funny, and typical for you, in this game. And of course, you've resorted to the tried-and-true scum tell, calling any attack on you that comes from someone that is suspicious of you, but that you've attacked before 'OMGUS'. But please, keep posting, make it more clear that you're scum.
First of all, I never called anything OMGUS. Nice lie. Actually, I've long since figured out now that you don't actually lie. You're just wrong all the time. A part of me hopes you're scum, because i'd think better of you if you are.
And second of all, how many times have I been right, nub? At least once with Loran. I'm pretty sure the other people I accused are still alive: Puzzle, yourself and Dagger.
Quote from Axelrod »
You know, you've been saying how remarkably townie Raf. has seemed to you since forever. And this is one of the larger strikes against you, frankly. Since I think most reasonable people would agree that Raf. has not done anything especially townie-like in this game (nor especially scummy-like so far as I recall, which would be one reason why he's still around). But you've really got no reason to be expressing such an opinion, especially in light of his nutso claim.
1) Yeah, like I had no reason to express the same opinion about multiple players over the course of the game... including CP and to a much lesser extent HE7. It's totally unlike me to tell you when I think someone is a townie, right Axelrod? It's like you think I'm a different person on MTGS or something. Like you haven't played in about 6 games with me before and you don't know exactly how I play by now.
2) And you clearly haven't been paying attention to Raf. He and I have been largely attacking and defending the same people, with some exceptions. And his arguments have often been things I would have said but before I said them. Everything about his play has been authentic and pro-town.
3) How can you POSSIBLY attack me (not my role, not my alignment, but ME) for being arrogant when you presume to know if I do or do not have a "reason" for expressing my opinion on Raf? Or is it completely unthinkable that you might have missed something?
Quote from Axelrod »
Your attempt to argue same smacks of desperation.
I think we both agree he's wrong, but his arguing doesn't "smack of desperation" any more than yours does. Neither of you is making anything even vaguely resembling a coherant point. Neither of you has any case against the other except "he's different, so kill him."
So until one of you wants to actually make a case on BEHAVIOR and not just grasping at what if's and maybe's then I suggest you both STFU.
3) How can you POSSIBLY attack me (not my role, not my alignment, but ME) for being arrogant when you presume to know if I do or do not have a "reason" for expressing my opinion on Raf? Or is it completely unthinkable that you might have missed something?
It is unthinkable.
That said, if there is an actual "reason" which you want to point to, I'm all ears.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
@Grakthis: Aren't you paranoid. I wasn't even talking to you there, I was talking to RafK, you just happened to post while I was typing. And you didn't ever put any effort into attacking Loran anyway, so I really don't see how you can claim a victory there. That lynch was, literally, 100% Axelrod's doing.
@Dagger : Why did you censor the end of the first PM ?[/font][/font]
I'm curious about this as well.
On the whole Neo/Sarah thing: I can't imagine that the Kid is on a diametrically different side than Neo. I could see them as mafia/mafia or mafia/SK but not mafia/town.
On the other hand, why would the Kid be mafia if Neo/Edmonson was not?
They aren't arguing that I'm mafia, though.
Also- the Kid coming up mafia surprised me at the time (the alert reader may even note that I said so), but it appeared he sold out to the Merovingian, probably unaware the Neo was back (albeit in the body of a woman who doesn't have Neo's memory).
There's only thing really giving me pause regarding the Sutherlands lynch: It's still going to be Axel vs. Raf tomorrow, and we can't just let it go forever. There's actually a chance that we might have more information on the Oracle tomorrow, but if we don't take care of one of Axel of Raf today, it isn't going to be any different later on, except the SK will have gotten in more kills.
There's no particularly good reason to let this issue slide for a day that I can see; all that says is that we would rather let more townies die via SK than risk making a mistake with the lynch. I really think we need to pick one and move forward.
Anyone recall Azrael vs. bateleur in the recent MTGSalvation Redux Mafia? Where they decided to lynch neither player when one or the other was obviously scum and lost as a direct result? This feels very similar, but really, it should be even more clear-cut, because we have the potential to eliminate a source of kills entirely.
What?! Look at the initial post; he is dead. Deceased. Kaputt. Indefinitely horizontal. In mafia games, you see, people are occasionally "killed off," and when that sad event occurs, he or she is no longer allowed to post, on account of rigor mortis and what-have-you.
'Welcome to Mafia Salvation', it said, 'Population: 3,660.' And someone, they never figured out who, had painted on the sign in red letters: '1,831 to lynch.'
There's another point. If Axelrod is NOT the SK, is it even remotely fair on the SK to have cut through that much stuff to get him? If Axelrod isn't the SK, then we've already seen the results of the SK trying, and it wasn't exactly very effective.
There's a daydoc and a psychologist and atlseal's protection all directly countering the SK. Axelrod's protection on top of that is just too much.
And on reflection, I agree with cp. Much as I still think taking out Dagger or Sutherlands/Puzzle will have us one step closer to eliminating the mafia, taking out the SK removes a kill NOW. While originally I had Axel and Cyan slated as non-SK neutrals, I don't think there's room here anymore for them to be neutrals PLUS there being an SK PLUS the remaining mafia. Something's got to give.
There's only thing really giving me pause regarding the Sutherlands lynch: It's still going to be Axel vs. Raf tomorrow, and we can't just let it go forever. There's actually a chance that we might have more information on the Oracle tomorrow, but if we don't take care of one of Axel of Raf today, it isn't going to be any different later on, except the SK will have gotten in more kills.
There's no particularly good reason to let this issue slide for a day that I can see; all that says is that we would rather let more townies die via SK than risk making a mistake with the lynch. I really think we need to pick one and move forward.
Anyone recall Azrael vs. bateleur in the recent MTGSalvation Redux Mafia? Where they decided to lynch neither player when one or the other was obviously scum and lost as a direct result? This feels very similar, but really, it should be even more clear-cut, because we have the potential to eliminate a source of kills entirely.
Yes indeed. I actually watched that entire debacle knowing the result beforehand. Other examples of this from that game include me using Rafk as a tool to making that original push on bat.
The fact remains that if neither Axel nor Raf is scum, then the scum are doing better than we thought. Lynching one and seeing who he is, to me, is an acceptable compromise. Vote Rafaelk.
Why do you think that one of the Oracles is mafia? I mean, if you're right, I would hope that we can just lynch the role itself and not have to lynch a specific person/aspect of it.
I am thinking the same thing, dear. None of this makes sense otherwise.
Not to mention had done absolutely nothing up to day 5 to suggest he was a threat to anyone (which I think is an enormous tell- he sat on that daykill for 5 days, rather than offering it for use on Kraj or loran or atlseal, presumably because using it at the stage didn't fit his private agenda).
Actually, I'll note this one down. Very interesting. Cyan's reasoning aside, why, dear Axel? I would like to hear this from your own mouth. And oh, those luscious lips of yours.
That said, if there is an actual "reason" which you want to point to, I'm all ears.
You want me to do a PBPA to prove Raf is a townie? :wacko:
That would be a first. I can't say anyone has ever asked me to prove out townie tells. I might give it a shot later.
Quote from Abbey »
On the whole Neo/Sarah thing: I can't imagine that the Kid is on a diametrically different side than Neo. I could see them as mafia/mafia or mafia/SK but not mafia/town.
But you can imagine Neo and Morpheus on opposite sides?
Maybe I need to re-emphasize where the moderator told us to expect the unexpected?
Quote from Cyan »
@Grakthis: Aren't you paranoid. I wasn't even talking to you there, I was talking to RafK, you just happened to post while I was typing. And you didn't ever put any effort into attacking Loran anyway, so I really don't see how you can claim a victory there. That lynch was, literally, 100% Axelrod's doing.
The things you post just baffle me. How about this for a suggestion, Cyan. QUOTE the post you're responding to. It will prevent confusion for everyone.
And the bolded part is easily the dumbest thing you've said in this game to date. And that's pretty impressive. It's like you're not even reading the game and you just make things up as you go along.
In fact, you tried to say this before, and the last time you tried to say it, I showed you that you were wrong. And here we are, like 100 pages later, and you're pretending none of that even happened.
Also: dear Cyan, learn what "literally" means. Thanks.
Quote from CP »
There's only thing really giving me pause regarding the Sutherlands lynch: It's still going to be Axel vs. Raf tomorrow, and we can't just let it go forever. There's actually a chance that we might have more information on the Oracle tomorrow, but if we don't take care of one of Axel of Raf today, it isn't going to be any different later on, except the SK will have gotten in more kills.
wait, so because two players are accusing eachother we HAVE to lynch one of them?
I don't see how either of them is obviously scum.
Look, dammit, if we want to lynch one of them before the game ends we can. But there are far more likely targets running around right now. You work DOWN the list from scummiest to least scummiest. You don't start in the middle.
Quote from ZDS »
Day 1 : Sutherlands
Night 1 : MJM (never made it to the day)
Day 2 : Hunted Charlie
Night 2/Day 3 : Jobie then Charm_Master
Night 3/Day 4/Night 4/Day 5 : Puzzle
Night 5/Day 6 : Sutherlands
let's try this again and you can tell me if I am missing something.
"11. Sutherlands (replacing Puzzle, replacing Charmmaster3125, replacing Sorryguy {who was replaced by Chamber [who has been replaced by Niv]}, replacing Sutherlands, replacing H_C, replacing MJM, replacing Sutherlands)"
Now, either the moderator is lying in the first page, or you're wrong. According to this, he started in the game, replaced in the game after H_C then came back today. That's 3 appearances and 2 replacements. So stop quoting some invented list at me and look at what I am quoting (which is the moderators own list from the first page).
Yes indeed. I actually watched that entire debacle knowing the result beforehand. Other examples of this from that game include me using Rafk as a tool to making that original push on bat.
The fact remains that if neither Axel nor Raf is scum, then the scum are doing better than we thought. Lynching one and seeing who he is, to me, is an acceptable compromise. Vote Rafaelk.
So there was this game played on MT called Gangsta Rap Mafia. It was a 15 player mini and I was a townie. We were pretty much dominating the game, but two townies could quit fighting and accusing eachother until one of them said something pretty offensive to the other and they BOTH refused to post until the other one was dead.
But because that town wasn't fully of toothless morons, we didn't let them screw up the game. We kept lynching scum and handily won the game. Because we played mafia instead of playing dispute resolution games. It's not a popularity contest, ladies. It's a game of reading people.
So unless you can give me a reason other than "compromise" then I'm calling ******** on this vote.
So there was this game played on MT called Gangsta Rap Mafia. It was a 15 player mini and I was a townie. We were pretty much dominating the game, but two townies could quit fighting and accusing eachother until one of them said something pretty offensive to the other and they BOTH refused to post until the other one was dead.
But because that town wasn't fully of toothless morons, we didn't let them screw up the game. We kept lynching scum and handily won the game. Because we played mafia instead of playing dispute resolution games. It's not a popularity contest, ladies. It's a game of reading people.
So unless you can give me a reason other than "compromise" then I'm calling ******** on this vote.
The fairly clear consensus is that one of these two is the SK. I think Axel is the SK, but I can see the merit in the Rafk argument and I'm willing to humor it until it's proven Rafk's town. Lynching him is probably the best means to that end at the moment.
The fairly clear consensus is that one of these two is the SK. I think Axel is the SK, but I can see the merit in the Rafk argument and I'm willing to humor it until it's proven Rafk's town. Lynching him is probably the best means to that end at the moment.
really? consensus?. Please provide links to where atleast half of the town has expressed this opinion. If you can give me half, I'll conceed the point.
I am amazed by the SK speculation. Really. One would think that if you were going to make a speculation like that, you would at least explain how it's consistent with what actually happened in the game.
If I understand Raf's "theory" which as his own lynch approaches has turned into a conviction, it's that I'm SK (with a 2 life bodyguard of what alignment exactly?) and besides having a singular Day-kill, I also (or in the alternative?) have the ability to give the kill away to anyone I want. And on Day 5, I was informed by the Mod. (happy that) that I was "protected" by Grakthis, so I decided to shoot myself to "clear" myself of being the SK, and (again, happily) Azrael goofed and wrote up this entire sequence with Cyan saving me - which certainly did not read like someone shooting at themselves, in fact, if you read it the way it was written, it's impossible for me to have done it, but that must have just been misleading "flavor," right (or I have another ability to make the Mod post false messages in the thread - I think Raf. suggested that at one point too), and then after missing the kill on myself, I used my second ability in the same day to bestow a day-kill on Alx.
Was that about it?
Is this the theory that the other people who seem to think I could be the SK are going by also, or do you have a different one?
You want me to do a PBPA to prove Raf is a townie? :wacko:
That would be a first. I can't say anyone has ever asked me to prove out townie tells. I might give it a shot later.
I thought you were suggesting that there was some specific thing I had "missed" which clearly pointed to Raf being townie. Not just an overall feeling based on totality of posts.
More than one person has remarked on how "unfair" my role is if I'm townie for the poor scums, who have to cut through Cyan twice to get to me. I would remind people at this time, that the original reason people thought it was "unfair" was based on the assumption that I was a power role of some kind. Guess what? I'm not. I'm strictly worse than a 1-shot vig. I don't even get to pick my own target. Now, I knew this at the time people were talking about it, but I didn't much feel like piping up and saying "you know, I'm really not a power role, so there's really nothing unballanced here." I rather preferred the scum to think I was a much bigger threat than I ever was to them.
Between Cyan and myself, it takes 3 kills to get both of us, as opposed to the standard two. This is not particularly over-powered, especially with a day-killer (who is not me, gee) running around.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
I thought you were suggesting that there was some specific thing I had "missed" which clearly pointed to Raf being townie. Not just an overall feeling based on totality of posts.
It's mostly that he's been right there supporting and arguing on every scum lynch so far this game. He hasn't tried to subvert any of them and he's been pretty quick to agree with good points made on any of the dead scum.
I realize an SK can play exactly like this. And it's not impossible for Raf to be the SK. But if we can say with some confidence that he's NOT MAFIA then I don't think he's the right lynch today. There are almost def 2 mafia left (Unless the one sending flowers or cake is on the limbo list and can still use abilities from there) and 1 SK. So not only do we have two chances to hit mafia and only 1 to hit the SK, if we lynch SCUMMY players then we have a chance of hitting EITHER ONE.
Quote from Axelrod »
More than one person has remarked on how "unfair" my role is if I'm townie for the poor scums, who have to cut through Cyan twice to get to me. I would remind people at this time, that the original reason people thought it was "unfair" was based on the assumption that I was a power role of some kind. Guess what? I'm not. I'm strictly worse than a 1-shot vig. I don't even get to pick my own target. Now, I knew this at the time people were talking about it, but I didn't much feel like piping up and saying "you know, I'm really not a power role, so there's really nothing unballanced here." I rather preferred the scum to think I was a much bigger threat than I ever was to them.
Between Cyan and myself, it takes 3 kills to get both of us, as opposed to the standard two. This is not particularly over-powered, especially with a day-killer (who is not me, gee) running around.
Agreed. There is nothing unfair about your role. It's no more unfair than a townie who cannot be nightkilled at all and those show up all the time.
I had a red herring bodyguard in Dark Tower mafia where the bodyguard could die in place of any of the masons. But the masons didn't really DO anything... they were just masons. But their role PMs implied they were more important than they were.
These kinds of roles are good plot devices.
Also, we should not lynch you because I am 90% sure Cyan will be dead by tomorrow anyways and we'll know his alignment which is enough for me.
I am debating if I should just claim my other ability now? Because if the mafia know it, then keeping it a secret seems kinda pointless and if the town knows it then the decision to kill Cyan once last night makes a lot more sense.
In bold are the parts which are missing from Dagger's retranscription.
I am not sure if we should be discussing the "modkill" part. That might have been removed at the mods request or something. I'll check with Az before I say more on that.
So this part "I know I'm not scum, and I've already pointed at the queen. What I'm PMng you for is that Dr. Merrick may not be as good as we think he is.
I wiki'd "the island", and sure enough, Merrick is a bad guy. I'm not sure if it's a reliable tell, but I'm very much more skeptical of him now. His description of his ability doesn't match up with what the movie refers to, in fact Cyan's comment about "dropping off a clone" seems much closer to the mark. I'm not saying we should lynch him yet, but someone might want to do a partial PBPA on him.
This may also mean that RafK isnt scum, but rather the doctor in which case he's doing a very nice job of hiding it.
take it as you will,
Charm_Master"
was all made up by Dagger?
And you'll note, the tone in this part is completely different from the rest (the rest seems more joking and funny) and not to mention that C_M doesn't "sign" any of the stuff that ZDS posted but he did sign this?
Vote:Dagger.
Man, I've been wanting to kill you for like 2 weeks. Can we finally get it done?
I am 100% convinced now that I have considered this. Dagger is absolutly lying to us and he's absolutly scum. Again, if we lynch him now, we might dodge the daykill entirely!
Looking at my PMs, the bolded part is indeed 'missing'. Something from the PM that I was sent tells me that something was there and got deleted, but, more on that later.
Whatever, nothing makes sense in this game. I'll wait for some clarification before changing my vote.
I'd also like some confirmation from Vampyr that ZDS is being truthful here, and not just setting up Dagger to take responsibility for the theoretical actions of someone that we can't take action against anyway(CM). I doubt this is the case, but, best to cover our bases.
Grak: there are 2 separate PM's there. The PM where CM casts aspersions on you was (supposedly) separate from the longer PM where he's giving blurbs about everyone. It's still very interesting that the long post that ZDS just posted has stuff in it that is not included in the PM that Dagger forwarded, plus appears to have a different view of you completely. That definitely suggests one or the other of them edited it, i.e. CM sent different posts to ZDS than he did to Dagger, or Dagger took the PM he received and redacted certain information.
I am going to look back at Dagger. Simply because of the demonstrated Night abilities we've seen, Dagger's is the one that is the easiest to see as a scum ability, plus it appears to be semi-redundant with Charm Master who I don't believe is Mafia with Spoon (counter-claim anyone) and is also communicating with people from Limbo.
Have we ever tried to vote someone in Limbo before? I recall that we couldn't vote a replacement, but what about Limbo?
Unvote;
Vote: Niv
This is just an experiment, and does not mean that I want "Niv" lynched from limbo. I'm moving this vote once it's clear.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Grak: there are 2 separate PM's there. The PM where CM casts aspersions on you was (supposedly) separate from the longer PM where he's giving blurbs about everyone. It's still very interesting that the long post that ZDS just posted has stuff in it that is not included in the PM that Dagger forwarded, plus appears to have a different view of you completely. That definitely suggests one or the other of them edited it, i.e. CM sent different posts to ZDS than he did to Dagger, or Dagger took the PM he received and redacted certain information.
Right, but the fact that ZDS didn't get that "PM" but Dagger did is suspect.
Not to mention that the way C_M ended the message from Dagger is compeltely different than how he ended the one from ZDS.
The one from Dagger ends with:
"Hope that gives some insight"
and the one from ZDS ends with:
"good luck town."
There are little inconsistencies like this all over, and the tone of the one posted by ZDS MATCHES C_M's playstyle all through the game.
Like, his use of parenthetical comments. C_M uses them ALL OVER the place. And yet in the entire PM where he questions my role, there isn't a SINGLE ONE. Instead, he constantly uses introductory comments offset by a comma. Which is not unheard of for C_M, but it's far less common than his parenthetical comments.
Now go look at how Dagger rights. He uses introductory comments with comma offsets ALL THE TIME:
"On and on, pompous prick. A long time ago, when we first came here, it was so different. He was so different."
"Because frankly, it is tiring asking for kisses and receiving none in return. Such rebuttal over something so small. It's just a kiss.
If you are nice, you will give me a sample of yours, yes? I wish to remember it."
"Actually, I'll note this one down. Very interesting. Cyan's reasoning aside, why, dear Axel? I would like to hear this from your own mouth. And oh, those luscious lips of yours."
And before he was roleplaying:
"Enlighten me as to who are the others, since you went to all the trouble of partially setting me up as the Merovingian if HE is town.
If you seriously believe I have two different night abilities and could use both at the same time, what is it that is stopping you from looking at those others with a night ability/day ability/no active ability as well?
Also, what is the flavor of my role exactly that you couldn't see it as Persephone's?"
Compare those to:
"I wiki'd "the island", and sure enough, Merrick is a bad guy. I'm not sure if it's a reliable tell, but I'm very much more skeptical of him now. His description of his ability doesn't match up with what the movie refers to, in fact Cyan's comment about "dropping off a clone" seems much closer to the mark. I'm not saying we should lynch him yet, but someone might want to do a partial PBPA on him."
It's damn near idential. This defines "circumstantial" evidence, because I am sure if I tried I could make the same case about 5-6 other players in this game. I could probably make it about my own typing. But the point stands, that it matches Dagger MORE than it matches C_M.
Quote from Axelrod »
Have we ever tried to vote someone in Limbo before? I recall that we couldn't vote a replacement, but what about Limbo?
Yeah. It was attempted, and Azrael made a post about searching for something or another.
Lynching people in limbo is silly. They are not alive, so we do not need to kill them.
I'd also like some confirmation from Vampyr that ZDS is being truthful here, and not just setting up Dagger to take responsibility for the theoretical actions of someone that we can't take action against anyway(CM). I doubt this is the case, but, best to cover our bases.
What ZDS posted are some of the COMPLETE PM's I was sending to and receiving from CM last night. If you notice, ZDS posted previously asking why Dagger edited the end of the PM. I went over it closer and saw the part about Grak that wasn't in there and mentioned it to ZDS.
Bottom line is that yes, I vouch for what ZDS has posted as being the exact same PMs I sent to or received from CM and then forwarded to ZDS to keep him informed.
Grak: there are 2 separate PM's there. The PM where CM casts aspersions on you was (supposedly) separate from the longer PM where he's giving blurbs about everyone. It's still very interesting that the long post that ZDS just posted has stuff in it that is not included in the PM that Dagger forwarded, plus appears to have a different view of you completely. That definitely suggests one or the other of them edited it, i.e. CM sent different posts to ZDS than he did to Dagger, or Dagger took the PM he received and redacted certain information.
The PM that Dagger posted that is supposedly from CM regarding Grak is something apart from what CM was sending to me. Dagger's post is the first time I've seen that smaller pm.
@Grak: regarding the signature thing, I have five pms from CM and in none does he end with his name.
Also, just to make things clear as I read Grak's new post. CM targeted me last night and I passed on everything between CM and I to ZDS.
The last thing I want is for someone to latch onto any sort of imagined theory that ZDS and I are lying about who talked to CM last night.
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Current Soul Collector count: 184
PM me if you have any to trade or sell.
Games finished:17
Games ongoing:1
Town/Mafia/Other - 13/2/2
Won/Lost/replaced/modkilled- 4/13/3/1
NK'ed(vig'ed)/Lynched/Endgamed(Survived) - 7(2)/5/5(1)
Matrix Mafia Town MVP
Medieval Mafia Mafia MVP
Ye have enemies? Good, good - it means ye've stood up for something, sometime in thy life. - Elminster of Shadowdale
WHY DO YOU PEOPLE FEEL THE NEED TO WAIT?!? STOP WAITING! WAITING IS HOW THE DAYKILLER DOES BAD THINGS TO US!
Seriously! It's ZDS AND VAMPYRE vs DUDE A LOT OF US THINK IS SCUM ALREADY.
There is nothing to be discussed or waited on here! KILL HIM! It verifies our two masons in every way we could possibly want them verified! It proves they can night talk and it proves they talked to C_M and if Dagger shows up as mafia it proves they are not mafia aligned!
So, I was totally wrong about CP. There's my one **** up for the game. Which means there's no way Raf is scum. I can't possibly be wrong twice about townie tells.
I told you the fact Spoon "realized" how CP's role works was a giveaway ...
Anyway, we don't have to race the daykill anymore, so let's take a breather. Do I understand correctly that the strike against Dagger is editing the PMs?
Wow, thank you SK. Now, who's been toting that CP's ability is crazy on a mafia person? Here, have some crow pie.
Yeah, I was one of them. I mean, come on, doesn't that seem pretty strong on a mafia member? Like, he was almost unlynchable towards the end of the game. I bet he had a "you lose this ability if there are less than X players alive" or maybe "you may vote up to X times or up to half the size of the town, rounding down, whichever is smaller."
I told you the fact Spoon "realized" how CP's role works was a giveaway ...
Anyway, we don't have to race the daykill anymore, so let's take a breather. Do I understand correctly that the strike against Dagger is editing the PMs?
Well there's a toss up if it was Dagger that edited the PM or if CM sent something different in an attempt to frame Dagger. It seems popular belief is that Dagger editted the message rather than thinking CM sent something different.
I'm still not all that comfortable with CM. And with the theory that Dagger was some how the Merovingian in disguise dispelled I feel better about him.
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Games finished:17
Games ongoing:1
Town/Mafia/Other - 13/2/2
Won/Lost/replaced/modkilled- 4/13/3/1
NK'ed(vig'ed)/Lynched/Endgamed(Survived) - 7(2)/5/5(1)
Matrix Mafia Town MVP
Medieval Mafia Mafia MVP
Ye have enemies? Good, good - it means ye've stood up for something, sometime in thy life. - Elminster of Shadowdale
I told you the fact Spoon "realized" how CP's role works was a giveaway ...
Anyway, we don't have to race the daykill anymore, so let's take a breather. Do I understand correctly that the strike against Dagger is editing the PMs?
Yeah. And here's another strike against him.
Think about Persephone in the movie... worked with the Mirovingian as his lover, but gave information to the heroes, all the while, still not fully working with the heroes. She just got a little revenge.
Makes sense for Daggers claimed role, no? "Hay, town, here is some info. But I'm controlling exactly what it looks like so that I can make sure to tell you only what serves my purposes exactly."
Well there's a toss up if it was Dagger that edited the PM or if CM sent something different in an attempt to frame Dagger. It seems popular belief is that Dagger editted the message rather than thinking CM sent something different.
Let's look at the facts of C_M:
1) Can speak to one player each night
2) Claimed morpheus, a role the scum later claimed
Now, if he were mafia and claimed Morpheus in private to a townie, wouldn't he find a way to let the mafia know? By contacting one of them the next night?
How does that possibly benefit the mafia to get one of their own killed over a sloppy roleclaim? Do we actually think they made that large of a mistake?
So CP had a multivote and could RB a person every night? Nice role. Every time(well, this is only the second time) that I'm like 'there's no way CP could be scum', that's exactly what he is.
I'm not as sure about lynching Dagger now, I think we can just try to find the SK again. Unvote, Vote RafK
I have a hard time seeing CM as scum after how things went down w/ Spoon. I'm still not completely sold on the revolving role itself(which won't revolve anymore, if CM was telling the truth previously)..but I don't think Charm is scum. Evidence points to Dagger as the liar there, I think.
Azrael wasn't very helpful in telling me whether the role would still switch at the end of the day, so we'll find out then. If it doesn't, I would hope that everyone could see that the role can't be mafia (since the Merovingian, a mafia member, was bouncing it around).
EWP: Cyan, why aren't you sold on the revolving role if it stops revolving?
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Level 1 Judge
Hey, you! Yeah, you behind the computer screen! You're unconstitutional.
Hay.... something from the Wiki we need to consider....
"The Trainman (played by Bruce Spence) is a program who works for the Merovingian and is aggressively loyal. He created a virtual subway station called Mobil Avenue Station, the limbo (anagram) between the Matrix and the Machine World. Here he is effectively a god and can defeat his enemies with great ease, including Neo. His role is analogous to that of a firewall, preventing Neo from entering the simulated world where his super human abilities could be harnessed and his influence exerted. He also carries a snub-nosed revolver, but is not a very good shot. However, he can fire it far more than six times, the standard capacity. He has long, dirty hair, a half-crazed look, and wears numerous watches on one arm, apparently to track the movements of all the trains in the Matrix."
Interesting part is bolded. So, do we maybe have a trainman somewhere who is somehow interacting with Limbo?
And would the flowers make sense for a persephone ability? If the Merovingian sends cake, would his woman send flowers?
1) Can speak to one player each night
2) Claimed morpheus, a role the scum later claimed
Now, if he were mafia and claimed Morpheus in private to a townie, wouldn't he find a way to let the mafia know? By contacting one of them the next night?
How does that possibly benefit the mafia to get one of their own killed over a sloppy roleclaim? Do we actually think they made that large of a mistake?
Why not? It's a great way to get a scumbuddy to come across as virtually confirmed, if they took the time to work it out\ properly.
Plus, I'm starting to rethink about Dagger being scum. What exactly has he done to make you think he's scum outside this one thing? He's getting set up based on his role and his ability. And this is exactly the thing that Az warned against doing. You, yourself, even made a comment on similiar actions not too long ago.
I'm just not buying it and I'm willing to let Dagger go for now.
I have a hard time seeing CM as scum after how things went down w/ Spoon. I'm still not completely sold on the revolving role itself(which won't revolve anymore, if CM was telling the truth previously)..but I don't think Charm is scum. Evidence points to Dagger as the liar there, I think.
Only in Az games does the SK get considered for townie awards.
Also, has anyone given a thought to the revolving role being the SK?
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Games finished:17
Games ongoing:1
Town/Mafia/Other - 13/2/2
Won/Lost/replaced/modkilled- 4/13/3/1
NK'ed(vig'ed)/Lynched/Endgamed(Survived) - 7(2)/5/5(1)
Matrix Mafia Town MVP
Medieval Mafia Mafia MVP
Ye have enemies? Good, good - it means ye've stood up for something, sometime in thy life. - Elminster of Shadowdale
On the other hand, why would the Kid be mafia if Neo/Edmonson was not?
Mafia MVP BM Mafia
Mafia MVP Matrix Mafia
You know, you've been saying how remarkably townie Raf. has seemed to you since forever. And this is one of the larger strikes against you, frankly. Since I think most reasonable people would agree that Raf. has not done anything especially townie-like in this game (nor especially scummy-like so far as I recall, which would be one reason why he's still around). But you've really got no reason to be expressing such an opinion, especially in light of his nutso claim.
Where was I insisting I was "cleared" again? Where exactly were these illusory holes in my reasoning you are referring to?
And here you just go off the deep end, don't you? Seriously trying to make an argument that if Morpheus is town (which we don't even know, but I'm willing to accept for now), then "Neo" should be town too. As though the "Kid" who worshiped Neo and followed him everywhere, wouldn't be on the same side as Neo if that kind of linking could be made at all.
But even going past that, both Neo and John Connor were "the One" (if you accept Azrael's version of Matrix history - and I don't hear you saying you don't think I'm really John Connor) and were "created" by the Machines for the same purpose. The flavor for either role to be town (or scum) would be the same.
And, gee, the Twins were "machines" right? They didn't even have real bodies in the real world. There is no corrolation between these role-names and townieness. Your attempt to argue same smacks of desperation.
Funny because he didn't make a point? I agree. Totally funny.
I tell you what, Cyan. If you can find his "actual point" in that post and show where i "ignore" it, I'll let you off the hook for your HE7 screw up.
First of all, I never called anything OMGUS. Nice lie. Actually, I've long since figured out now that you don't actually lie. You're just wrong all the time. A part of me hopes you're scum, because i'd think better of you if you are.
And second of all, how many times have I been right, nub? At least once with Loran. I'm pretty sure the other people I accused are still alive: Puzzle, yourself and Dagger.
1) Yeah, like I had no reason to express the same opinion about multiple players over the course of the game... including CP and to a much lesser extent HE7. It's totally unlike me to tell you when I think someone is a townie, right Axelrod? It's like you think I'm a different person on MTGS or something. Like you haven't played in about 6 games with me before and you don't know exactly how I play by now.
2) And you clearly haven't been paying attention to Raf. He and I have been largely attacking and defending the same people, with some exceptions. And his arguments have often been things I would have said but before I said them. Everything about his play has been authentic and pro-town.
3) How can you POSSIBLY attack me (not my role, not my alignment, but ME) for being arrogant when you presume to know if I do or do not have a "reason" for expressing my opinion on Raf? Or is it completely unthinkable that you might have missed something?
I think we both agree he's wrong, but his arguing doesn't "smack of desperation" any more than yours does. Neither of you is making anything even vaguely resembling a coherant point. Neither of you has any case against the other except "he's different, so kill him."
So until one of you wants to actually make a case on BEHAVIOR and not just grasping at what if's and maybe's then I suggest you both STFU.
It is unthinkable.
That said, if there is an actual "reason" which you want to point to, I'm all ears.
I'm curious about this as well.
On the whole Neo/Sarah thing: I can't imagine that the Kid is on a diametrically different side than Neo. I could see them as mafia/mafia or mafia/SK but not mafia/town.
They aren't arguing that I'm mafia, though.
Also- the Kid coming up mafia surprised me at the time (the alert reader may even note that I said so), but it appeared he sold out to the Merovingian, probably unaware the Neo was back (albeit in the body of a woman who doesn't have Neo's memory).
1) Puzzle was scummy as hell; and
2) Sutherlands just tried to write off CM's statements as a "mix-up", which- no. Call me crazy, but I'm pretty sure CM is not mixed up.
There's no particularly good reason to let this issue slide for a day that I can see; all that says is that we would rather let more townies die via SK than risk making a mistake with the lynch. I really think we need to pick one and move forward.
Anyone recall Azrael vs. bateleur in the recent MTGSalvation Redux Mafia? Where they decided to lynch neither player when one or the other was obviously scum and lost as a direct result? This feels very similar, but really, it should be even more clear-cut, because we have the potential to eliminate a source of kills entirely.
Mafia MVP BM Mafia
Mafia MVP Matrix Mafia
There's another point. If Axelrod is NOT the SK, is it even remotely fair on the SK to have cut through that much stuff to get him? If Axelrod isn't the SK, then we've already seen the results of the SK trying, and it wasn't exactly very effective.
There's a daydoc and a psychologist and atlseal's protection all directly countering the SK. Axelrod's protection on top of that is just too much.
And on reflection, I agree with cp. Much as I still think taking out Dagger or Sutherlands/Puzzle will have us one step closer to eliminating the mafia, taking out the SK removes a kill NOW. While originally I had Axel and Cyan slated as non-SK neutrals, I don't think there's room here anymore for them to be neutrals PLUS there being an SK PLUS the remaining mafia. Something's got to give.
Yes indeed. I actually watched that entire debacle knowing the result beforehand. Other examples of this from that game include me using Rafk as a tool to making that original push on bat.
The fact remains that if neither Axel nor Raf is scum, then the scum are doing better than we thought. Lynching one and seeing who he is, to me, is an acceptable compromise. Vote Rafaelk.
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Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
And the taste of innocence from your lips, unsullied by the rigors of time and regrets. It is a sample worth treasuring.
The stated missive was as received, love. I hide nothing.
Instead of your distasteful accusation, why don't you show me instead what I have missed, both in words and action, hmm?
I am so sick of his ********. On and on, pompous prick. A long time ago, when we first came here, it was so different. He was so different.
I am thinking the same thing, dear. None of this makes sense otherwise.
The answer to this would be very nice.
Because frankly, it is tiring asking for kisses and receiving none in return. Such rebuttal over something so small. It's just a kiss.
If you are nice, you will give me a sample of yours, yes? I wish to remember it.
Actually, I'll note this one down. Very interesting. Cyan's reasoning aside, why, dear Axel? I would like to hear this from your own mouth. And oh, those luscious lips of yours.
We'll make you an offer you can't refuse.
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You want me to do a PBPA to prove Raf is a townie? :wacko:
That would be a first. I can't say anyone has ever asked me to prove out townie tells. I might give it a shot later.
But you can imagine Neo and Morpheus on opposite sides?
Maybe I need to re-emphasize where the moderator told us to expect the unexpected?
The things you post just baffle me. How about this for a suggestion, Cyan. QUOTE the post you're responding to. It will prevent confusion for everyone.
And the bolded part is easily the dumbest thing you've said in this game to date. And that's pretty impressive. It's like you're not even reading the game and you just make things up as you go along.
In fact, you tried to say this before, and the last time you tried to say it, I showed you that you were wrong. And here we are, like 100 pages later, and you're pretending none of that even happened.
Also: dear Cyan, learn what "literally" means. Thanks.
wait, so because two players are accusing eachother we HAVE to lynch one of them?
I don't see how either of them is obviously scum.
Look, dammit, if we want to lynch one of them before the game ends we can. But there are far more likely targets running around right now. You work DOWN the list from scummiest to least scummiest. You don't start in the middle.
let's try this again and you can tell me if I am missing something.
"11. Sutherlands (replacing Puzzle, replacing Charmmaster3125, replacing Sorryguy {who was replaced by Chamber [who has been replaced by Niv]}, replacing Sutherlands, replacing H_C, replacing MJM, replacing Sutherlands)"
Now, either the moderator is lying in the first page, or you're wrong. According to this, he started in the game, replaced in the game after H_C then came back today. That's 3 appearances and 2 replacements. So stop quoting some invented list at me and look at what I am quoting (which is the moderators own list from the first page).
So there was this game played on MT called Gangsta Rap Mafia. It was a 15 player mini and I was a townie. We were pretty much dominating the game, but two townies could quit fighting and accusing eachother until one of them said something pretty offensive to the other and they BOTH refused to post until the other one was dead.
But because that town wasn't fully of toothless morons, we didn't let them screw up the game. We kept lynching scum and handily won the game. Because we played mafia instead of playing dispute resolution games. It's not a popularity contest, ladies. It's a game of reading people.
So unless you can give me a reason other than "compromise" then I'm calling ******** on this vote.
The fairly clear consensus is that one of these two is the SK. I think Axel is the SK, but I can see the merit in the Rafk argument and I'm willing to humor it until it's proven Rafk's town. Lynching him is probably the best means to that end at the moment.
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
really? consensus?. Please provide links to where atleast half of the town has expressed this opinion. If you can give me half, I'll conceed the point.
If I understand Raf's "theory" which as his own lynch approaches has turned into a conviction, it's that I'm SK (with a 2 life bodyguard of what alignment exactly?) and besides having a singular Day-kill, I also (or in the alternative?) have the ability to give the kill away to anyone I want. And on Day 5, I was informed by the Mod. (happy that) that I was "protected" by Grakthis, so I decided to shoot myself to "clear" myself of being the SK, and (again, happily) Azrael goofed and wrote up this entire sequence with Cyan saving me - which certainly did not read like someone shooting at themselves, in fact, if you read it the way it was written, it's impossible for me to have done it, but that must have just been misleading "flavor," right (or I have another ability to make the Mod post false messages in the thread - I think Raf. suggested that at one point too), and then after missing the kill on myself, I used my second ability in the same day to bestow a day-kill on Alx.
Was that about it?
Is this the theory that the other people who seem to think I could be the SK are going by also, or do you have a different one?
I thought you were suggesting that there was some specific thing I had "missed" which clearly pointed to Raf being townie. Not just an overall feeling based on totality of posts.
More than one person has remarked on how "unfair" my role is if I'm townie for the poor scums, who have to cut through Cyan twice to get to me. I would remind people at this time, that the original reason people thought it was "unfair" was based on the assumption that I was a power role of some kind. Guess what? I'm not. I'm strictly worse than a 1-shot vig. I don't even get to pick my own target. Now, I knew this at the time people were talking about it, but I didn't much feel like piping up and saying "you know, I'm really not a power role, so there's really nothing unballanced here." I rather preferred the scum to think I was a much bigger threat than I ever was to them.
Between Cyan and myself, it takes 3 kills to get both of us, as opposed to the standard two. This is not particularly over-powered, especially with a day-killer (who is not me, gee) running around.
It's mostly that he's been right there supporting and arguing on every scum lynch so far this game. He hasn't tried to subvert any of them and he's been pretty quick to agree with good points made on any of the dead scum.
I realize an SK can play exactly like this. And it's not impossible for Raf to be the SK. But if we can say with some confidence that he's NOT MAFIA then I don't think he's the right lynch today. There are almost def 2 mafia left (Unless the one sending flowers or cake is on the limbo list and can still use abilities from there) and 1 SK. So not only do we have two chances to hit mafia and only 1 to hit the SK, if we lynch SCUMMY players then we have a chance of hitting EITHER ONE.
Agreed. There is nothing unfair about your role. It's no more unfair than a townie who cannot be nightkilled at all and those show up all the time.
I had a red herring bodyguard in Dark Tower mafia where the bodyguard could die in place of any of the masons. But the masons didn't really DO anything... they were just masons. But their role PMs implied they were more important than they were.
These kinds of roles are good plot devices.
Also, we should not lynch you because I am 90% sure Cyan will be dead by tomorrow anyways and we'll know his alignment which is enough for me.
I am debating if I should just claim my other ability now? Because if the mafia know it, then keeping it a secret seems kinda pointless and if the town knows it then the decision to kill Cyan once last night makes a lot more sense.
I am not sure if we should be discussing the "modkill" part. That might have been removed at the mods request or something. I'll check with Az before I say more on that.
So this part "I know I'm not scum, and I've already pointed at the queen. What I'm PMng you for is that Dr. Merrick may not be as good as we think he is.
I wiki'd "the island", and sure enough, Merrick is a bad guy. I'm not sure if it's a reliable tell, but I'm very much more skeptical of him now. His description of his ability doesn't match up with what the movie refers to, in fact Cyan's comment about "dropping off a clone" seems much closer to the mark. I'm not saying we should lynch him yet, but someone might want to do a partial PBPA on him.
This may also mean that RafK isnt scum, but rather the doctor in which case he's doing a very nice job of hiding it.
take it as you will,
Charm_Master"
was all made up by Dagger?
And you'll note, the tone in this part is completely different from the rest (the rest seems more joking and funny) and not to mention that C_M doesn't "sign" any of the stuff that ZDS posted but he did sign this?
Vote:Dagger.
Man, I've been wanting to kill you for like 2 weeks. Can we finally get it done?
I am 100% convinced now that I have considered this. Dagger is absolutly lying to us and he's absolutly scum. Again, if we lynch him now, we might dodge the daykill entirely!
Whatever, nothing makes sense in this game. I'll wait for some clarification before changing my vote.
I'd also like some confirmation from Vampyr that ZDS is being truthful here, and not just setting up Dagger to take responsibility for the theoretical actions of someone that we can't take action against anyway(CM). I doubt this is the case, but, best to cover our bases.
I am going to look back at Dagger. Simply because of the demonstrated Night abilities we've seen, Dagger's is the one that is the easiest to see as a scum ability, plus it appears to be semi-redundant with Charm Master who I don't believe is Mafia with Spoon (counter-claim anyone) and is also communicating with people from Limbo.
Have we ever tried to vote someone in Limbo before? I recall that we couldn't vote a replacement, but what about Limbo?
Unvote;
Vote: Niv
This is just an experiment, and does not mean that I want "Niv" lynched from limbo. I'm moving this vote once it's clear.
Right, but the fact that ZDS didn't get that "PM" but Dagger did is suspect.
Not to mention that the way C_M ended the message from Dagger is compeltely different than how he ended the one from ZDS.
The one from Dagger ends with:
"Hope that gives some insight"
and the one from ZDS ends with:
"good luck town."
There are little inconsistencies like this all over, and the tone of the one posted by ZDS MATCHES C_M's playstyle all through the game.
Like, his use of parenthetical comments. C_M uses them ALL OVER the place. And yet in the entire PM where he questions my role, there isn't a SINGLE ONE. Instead, he constantly uses introductory comments offset by a comma. Which is not unheard of for C_M, but it's far less common than his parenthetical comments.
Now go look at how Dagger rights. He uses introductory comments with comma offsets ALL THE TIME:
"On and on, pompous prick. A long time ago, when we first came here, it was so different. He was so different."
"Because frankly, it is tiring asking for kisses and receiving none in return. Such rebuttal over something so small. It's just a kiss.
If you are nice, you will give me a sample of yours, yes? I wish to remember it."
"Actually, I'll note this one down. Very interesting. Cyan's reasoning aside, why, dear Axel? I would like to hear this from your own mouth. And oh, those luscious lips of yours."
And before he was roleplaying:
"Enlighten me as to who are the others, since you went to all the trouble of partially setting me up as the Merovingian if HE is town.
If you seriously believe I have two different night abilities and could use both at the same time, what is it that is stopping you from looking at those others with a night ability/day ability/no active ability as well?
Also, what is the flavor of my role exactly that you couldn't see it as Persephone's?"
Compare those to:
"I wiki'd "the island", and sure enough, Merrick is a bad guy. I'm not sure if it's a reliable tell, but I'm very much more skeptical of him now. His description of his ability doesn't match up with what the movie refers to, in fact Cyan's comment about "dropping off a clone" seems much closer to the mark. I'm not saying we should lynch him yet, but someone might want to do a partial PBPA on him."
It's damn near idential. This defines "circumstantial" evidence, because I am sure if I tried I could make the same case about 5-6 other players in this game. I could probably make it about my own typing. But the point stands, that it matches Dagger MORE than it matches C_M.
Yeah. It was attempted, and Azrael made a post about searching for something or another.
Lynching people in limbo is silly. They are not alive, so we do not need to kill them.
What ZDS posted are some of the COMPLETE PM's I was sending to and receiving from CM last night. If you notice, ZDS posted previously asking why Dagger edited the end of the PM. I went over it closer and saw the part about Grak that wasn't in there and mentioned it to ZDS.
Bottom line is that yes, I vouch for what ZDS has posted as being the exact same PMs I sent to or received from CM and then forwarded to ZDS to keep him informed.
The PM that Dagger posted that is supposedly from CM regarding Grak is something apart from what CM was sending to me. Dagger's post is the first time I've seen that smaller pm.
@Grak: regarding the signature thing, I have five pms from CM and in none does he end with his name.
Also, just to make things clear as I read Grak's new post. CM targeted me last night and I passed on everything between CM and I to ZDS.
The last thing I want is for someone to latch onto any sort of imagined theory that ZDS and I are lying about who talked to CM last night.
PM me if you have any to trade or sell.
Games finished:17
Games ongoing:1
Town/Mafia/Other - 13/2/2
Won/Lost/replaced/modkilled- 4/13/3/1
NK'ed(vig'ed)/Lynched/Endgamed(Survived) - 7(2)/5/5(1)
Matrix Mafia Town MVP
Medieval Mafia Mafia MVP
Ye have enemies? Good, good - it means ye've stood up for something, sometime in thy life. - Elminster of Shadowdale
Seriously! It's ZDS AND VAMPYRE vs DUDE A LOT OF US THINK IS SCUM ALREADY.
There is nothing to be discussed or waited on here! KILL HIM! It verifies our two masons in every way we could possibly want them verified! It proves they can night talk and it proves they talked to C_M and if Dagger shows up as mafia it proves they are not mafia aligned!
FWIW, Grakthis is probably right that there is no real reason to wait, and avoiding one daykill seems optimal.
"Nom de Dieu de putain de bordel de merde de saloperie de connard d'enculé de ta mère!"
With that, the Merovingian, Mafia Leader, succumbs to his fate.
With ten alive, it is six to lynch.
PM me if you have any to trade or sell.
Games finished:17
Games ongoing:1
Town/Mafia/Other - 13/2/2
Won/Lost/replaced/modkilled- 4/13/3/1
NK'ed(vig'ed)/Lynched/Endgamed(Survived) - 7(2)/5/5(1)
Matrix Mafia Town MVP
Medieval Mafia Mafia MVP
Ye have enemies? Good, good - it means ye've stood up for something, sometime in thy life. - Elminster of Shadowdale
Ok. Nm. Thanks SK.
So, I was totally wrong about CP. There's my one **** up for the game. Which means there's no way Raf is scum. I can't possibly be wrong twice about townie tells.
We can take our time lynching Dagger now.
Anyway, we don't have to race the daykill anymore, so let's take a breather. Do I understand correctly that the strike against Dagger is editing the PMs?
Yeah, I was one of them. I mean, come on, doesn't that seem pretty strong on a mafia member? Like, he was almost unlynchable towards the end of the game. I bet he had a "you lose this ability if there are less than X players alive" or maybe "you may vote up to X times or up to half the size of the town, rounding down, whichever is smaller."
Hey, you! Yeah, you behind the computer screen! You're unconstitutional.
America == Velociraptor
Play IRC mafia. (/join #mafia)
Well there's a toss up if it was Dagger that edited the PM or if CM sent something different in an attempt to frame Dagger. It seems popular belief is that Dagger editted the message rather than thinking CM sent something different.
I'm still not all that comfortable with CM. And with the theory that Dagger was some how the Merovingian in disguise dispelled I feel better about him.
PM me if you have any to trade or sell.
Games finished:17
Games ongoing:1
Town/Mafia/Other - 13/2/2
Won/Lost/replaced/modkilled- 4/13/3/1
NK'ed(vig'ed)/Lynched/Endgamed(Survived) - 7(2)/5/5(1)
Matrix Mafia Town MVP
Medieval Mafia Mafia MVP
Ye have enemies? Good, good - it means ye've stood up for something, sometime in thy life. - Elminster of Shadowdale
Yeah. And here's another strike against him.
Think about Persephone in the movie... worked with the Mirovingian as his lover, but gave information to the heroes, all the while, still not fully working with the heroes. She just got a little revenge.
Makes sense for Daggers claimed role, no? "Hay, town, here is some info. But I'm controlling exactly what it looks like so that I can make sure to tell you only what serves my purposes exactly."
* Sutherlands sends PM to Azrael
Hey, you! Yeah, you behind the computer screen! You're unconstitutional.
America == Velociraptor
Play IRC mafia. (/join #mafia)
Let's look at the facts of C_M:
1) Can speak to one player each night
2) Claimed morpheus, a role the scum later claimed
Now, if he were mafia and claimed Morpheus in private to a townie, wouldn't he find a way to let the mafia know? By contacting one of them the next night?
How does that possibly benefit the mafia to get one of their own killed over a sloppy roleclaim? Do we actually think they made that large of a mistake?
I'm not as sure about lynching Dagger now, I think we can just try to find the SK again. Unvote, Vote RafK
Also, preemptive vote for the SK for town MVP.
I have a hard time seeing CM as scum after how things went down w/ Spoon. I'm still not completely sold on the revolving role itself(which won't revolve anymore, if CM was telling the truth previously)..but I don't think Charm is scum. Evidence points to Dagger as the liar there, I think.
EWP: Cyan, why aren't you sold on the revolving role if it stops revolving?
Hey, you! Yeah, you behind the computer screen! You're unconstitutional.
America == Velociraptor
Play IRC mafia. (/join #mafia)
Hey, you! Yeah, you behind the computer screen! You're unconstitutional.
America == Velociraptor
Play IRC mafia. (/join #mafia)
"The Trainman (played by Bruce Spence) is a program who works for the Merovingian and is aggressively loyal. He created a virtual subway station called Mobil Avenue Station, the limbo (anagram) between the Matrix and the Machine World. Here he is effectively a god and can defeat his enemies with great ease, including Neo. His role is analogous to that of a firewall, preventing Neo from entering the simulated world where his super human abilities could be harnessed and his influence exerted. He also carries a snub-nosed revolver, but is not a very good shot. However, he can fire it far more than six times, the standard capacity. He has long, dirty hair, a half-crazed look, and wears numerous watches on one arm, apparently to track the movements of all the trains in the Matrix."
Interesting part is bolded. So, do we maybe have a trainman somewhere who is somehow interacting with Limbo?
And would the flowers make sense for a persephone ability? If the Merovingian sends cake, would his woman send flowers?
Why not? It's a great way to get a scumbuddy to come across as virtually confirmed, if they took the time to work it out\ properly.
Plus, I'm starting to rethink about Dagger being scum. What exactly has he done to make you think he's scum outside this one thing? He's getting set up based on his role and his ability. And this is exactly the thing that Az warned against doing. You, yourself, even made a comment on similiar actions not too long ago.
I'm just not buying it and I'm willing to let Dagger go for now.
Only in Az games does the SK get considered for townie awards.
Also, has anyone given a thought to the revolving role being the SK?
PM me if you have any to trade or sell.
Games finished:17
Games ongoing:1
Town/Mafia/Other - 13/2/2
Won/Lost/replaced/modkilled- 4/13/3/1
NK'ed(vig'ed)/Lynched/Endgamed(Survived) - 7(2)/5/5(1)
Matrix Mafia Town MVP
Medieval Mafia Mafia MVP
Ye have enemies? Good, good - it means ye've stood up for something, sometime in thy life. - Elminster of Shadowdale
Hey, you! Yeah, you behind the computer screen! You're unconstitutional.
America == Velociraptor
Play IRC mafia. (/join #mafia)
The twins names, according to Wikipedia, are Helena and Lorna. Not Ged and Wuffles II. Who are Ged and Wuffles?!?
1 Axelrod-Rafk
1 Cyan-Xyre
2 Dagger-Grakthis, Cyan
2 Rafk-Axelrod, ZDS
4 Not Voting-Dagger, Sutherlands, Vampyr, Alx2
Ged
Wuffles_II
Hey, you! Yeah, you behind the computer screen! You're unconstitutional.
America == Velociraptor
Play IRC mafia. (/join #mafia)