Do you think landstill is good enough to make a comeback? In my current meta lots of thresh, BW / BGW Deadguy, Stax, Little Aggro, Mono B Midrange, Minimum Combo, like 1 or two goblins. Do you think it would be an ok choice? I'm looking at a UWBG build with Deed, StP, Cunning Wish, Win conditioons being Quagnoth, Nantuko Monestary, and Mishra's Factory, and recursion through Life From the Loam.
What do you think? Could it be good, or is it just worse than threshold?
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And what do you think of playing AK in landstill instead of Standstiils themselves? I tested it for a while and results were fairly good. At least I prefer to topdeck Ak then Standstill when I see a Mongoose on the table...
Actually regardless of standstill's obvious draw backs in the metagame it is still the best draw spell there is in this format. I mean it's a ancestral recall that costs one more mana so play it. Also playing manlands without standstill is like trying to shoot a deer blind folded in my opinion.
Ah that deck that Imaginure freund posted is basically an improved version of my silly vorosh control deck.
quagnoth is horrible for landstill and anyone who thinks it could work in main or side doesnt have the right to play landstill. loam is an ok recursion but I have only heard one person ever give a good reason to use loam but he has never taken his list to a big place any where, all the pros and anyone who has placed that has used land recursion uses crucible. If you want to use cunning wish, dont go 4 colors, its not worth it, but if you want to go 4 colors( like the pros) go to mtgthesource.com and find either bardos list or tacos list.
Quagnoth has his merits he is a great finisher in the late game and he dodges alot of the removal spectrum in the format.
Actually loam is quite good it costs one less then crucible and it can't be removed by Krosan grip. Which can make loam more flexible for land recursion. Any good landstill player can maximize the usage of loam and use it effectively. I personally like the 1 crucible and 1 loam for 4c landstill since it adds much more leeway and having a variety can really be handy.
Also believe it or not Der_imaginure_freund and his landstill partner Marius has top 8 at numerous big tournament events in germany so obviously they offer great insight on building landstill decks in my opinon.
Not to say that Tacosnape or Bardo aren't great people and great american Landstill builders (I honor their work on the BHWC style Landstill build), but your above statements are just contradictory.
Also, I really don't like the american aproach to 4c Landstill for numerous reasons:
See above reasoning on Cunning Wish for one reason
Manabase vulnerable to Extirpate
Vulnerability to Pithing Needle
FoF is too slow & clunky
Too many colorless sources
[...]
/rant mode.
I couldn't agree with you more, even if I wanted to--I just couldn't.
I've recently cut back Swords to Plowshares, aka 'the color white,' and am running the following 3-color version.
“The Vorosh Deck 2k8.2”
By Bardo
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
3 Counterbalance
2 Spell Snare
There's so many arguments to be made over Landstill and I'm not sure if this is the best place to do it. Broadly, though, I see this as a matter of power vs. consistency (re: mana), power vs. synergy and metagame positioning. Control decks leverage a response to a sub-section of the metagame, but as the environment is always shifting, the form of the control deck's response is always shifting too. There's still much randomness in the format, but I still see it largely revolving around Threshold, red aggro/Goblins and storm combo. If you're going to build a Control deck, those are things that need to be addressed.
Thats my list, yes, *** does not replace deed but ***, wish, humility, and EE deffinately do ... what do you think? Btw im puttin a primer in developing compettitve on this ... my last big legacy was 9-1 (burn is so hard to beat, but it never wins angainst anything else so I lost to it round 1)
EDIT: Wow, our lists are very similar... any comments on mine Der imaginare?
I got my list by creating it with two friends, we run 75 card mirrors right now, as we love the deck ... ill test your changes as they seem sensible. The only change I'm really hesitant on is removing my other wasteland, but I'll try it, and the Extirpate, as I like boarding in 3 and wishing for fourth.
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This just isn't true. The Waste/Stifle and the Blood Moon-variants are fully capable of beating competent Landstill-pilots.
Clemens was probably giving a more general statement then a specific one. I could also say that compotent landstill pilots are fully capable of beating compotent threshold players as well. Seriously though, Clemens probably has a large amount of testing under his belt with landstill against any threshold variant. He also has won against a good threshold player playing UGR thrash with his uwb landstill build in a tournament as well. So I wouldn't totally discount of what he has to say regarding the modern thresh variants versus landstill matchups.
With the 55-45 I meant the canadian tempo trash - that matchup is still in your favor although only slightly: you have to play tightly in order to win this, this figure being true only for the good/god draws of the NQG/r: in many cases they just can't apply the pressure in time needed or can't disrupt.
Postboard it gets better as you gain access to Extirpate which is a bomb in this matchup.
Those numbers also come from taking into account the games where I didn't yet figure out how to play the matchup correctly.
With crushing I mean the normal (Counterbalanced) NQGs that can hardly win a game against you. You also have to keep in mind that this build is way more widely played than the tempo trash.
I think more players are going to start playing Thrash because of recent articles, like this. I think that 3 color landstill is a better choice right now than 4 color, because of Thrash, Moon Thresh etc.
What I'm saying is that due to the variety of Threshold-variants, it's incorrect to give a sweeping statement like "it bashes NQG", since NQG covers such a wide variety of archetypes. I don't claim to have done the hundreds of matches worth of rigorous testing it takes to really deduct the numbers of a match-up, so I'm not going to try to give the exact numbers on how it works, but I think the match-up is vs. Thrash is closer to even than blowout. Since we don't know the NQG-variants in his meta, this bears mentioning as if he takes Landstill there expecting to wreck house and ends up playing 4 rounds vs. Thrash, chances are he'll be disappointed even if he trains the MU for days beforehand.
Well the thing is landstill does have a favorable matchup against threshold in general or else why bother even playing with landstill. It's basically one of the main merits to play landstill in the format.
I think clemens pretty much give the notion that his uwb landstill versus thrash matchup is closer to even especially after boarding.
I think Eldariel is trying to point out that for a deck that is supposed to beat up on Threshold, going around 50-50 against some of its variants isn't so great.
I think Eldariel is trying to point out that for a deck that is supposed to beat up on Threshold, going around 50-50 against some of its variants isn't so great.
Well going 50-50 is definetly much better then nothing though obviously. As I said before I wouldn't totally discount anything that clemens said because generally he plays landstill alot and knows his matchups well with landstill.
The threshold variants in his meta are pretty much the same anywhere else.
I beat thresh all day long .. I lost a few times in the beginning due to lack of experience, but now I am fine against it, I think most builds of thresh are easy matchups
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What do you think? Could it be good, or is it just worse than threshold?
I swore to tear Heaven asunder
As flights of fallen angels wished me
Godspeed on the Devil's Thunder.
Thanks Magus of the Sheep for this great border!
2009 ....
Top 8 Regionals
Top 32 GP Chicago
PTQ Top 8's - 2
Ah that deck that Imaginure freund posted is basically an improved version of my silly vorosh control deck.
Actually loam is quite good it costs one less then crucible and it can't be removed by Krosan grip. Which can make loam more flexible for land recursion. Any good landstill player can maximize the usage of loam and use it effectively. I personally like the 1 crucible and 1 loam for 4c landstill since it adds much more leeway and having a variety can really be handy.
Also believe it or not Der_imaginure_freund and his landstill partner Marius has top 8 at numerous big tournament events in germany so obviously they offer great insight on building landstill decks in my opinon.
I couldn't agree with you more, even if I wanted to--I just couldn't.
I've recently cut back Swords to Plowshares, aka 'the color white,' and am running the following 3-color version.
“The Vorosh Deck 2k8.2”
By Bardo
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
3 Counterbalance
2 Spell Snare
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Engineered Explosives
2 Vedalken Shackles
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
4 Island
1 Swamp
1 Academy Ruins
Sideboard
4 Engineered Plague
3 Dark Confidant
3 Hydroblast
3 Extirpate
2 Krosan Grip
There's so many arguments to be made over Landstill and I'm not sure if this is the best place to do it. Broadly, though, I see this as a matter of power vs. consistency (re: mana), power vs. synergy and metagame positioning. Control decks leverage a response to a sub-section of the metagame, but as the environment is always shifting, the form of the control deck's response is always shifting too. There's still much randomness in the format, but I still see it largely revolving around Threshold, red aggro/Goblins and storm combo. If you're going to build a Control deck, those are things that need to be addressed.
I swore to tear Heaven asunder
As flights of fallen angels wished me
Godspeed on the Devil's Thunder.
Thanks Magus of the Sheep for this great border!
2009 ....
Top 8 Regionals
Top 32 GP Chicago
PTQ Top 8's - 2
2 Underground Sea
4 Tundra
2 Scrubland
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Wasteland
2 Island
2 Plains
1 Academy Ruins
4 Standstill
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshare
4 Counterspell
2 Crucible of Worlds
2 Wrath of God
3 Cunning Wish
3 Decree of Justice
2 Humility
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Meddling Mage
4 Engineered Plague
1 Return to Dust
1 Pulse of the Fields
1 Slaughter Pact
Thats my list, yes, *** does not replace deed but ***, wish, humility, and EE deffinately do ... what do you think? Btw im puttin a primer in developing compettitve on this ... my last big legacy was 9-1 (burn is so hard to beat, but it never wins angainst anything else so I lost to it round 1)
EDIT: Wow, our lists are very similar... any comments on mine Der imaginare?
I swore to tear Heaven asunder
As flights of fallen angels wished me
Godspeed on the Devil's Thunder.
Thanks Magus of the Sheep for this great border!
2009 ....
Top 8 Regionals
Top 32 GP Chicago
PTQ Top 8's - 2
I swore to tear Heaven asunder
As flights of fallen angels wished me
Godspeed on the Devil's Thunder.
Thanks Magus of the Sheep for this great border!
2009 ....
Top 8 Regionals
Top 32 GP Chicago
PTQ Top 8's - 2
Clemens was probably giving a more general statement then a specific one. I could also say that compotent landstill pilots are fully capable of beating compotent threshold players as well. Seriously though, Clemens probably has a large amount of testing under his belt with landstill against any threshold variant. He also has won against a good threshold player playing UGR thrash with his uwb landstill build in a tournament as well. So I wouldn't totally discount of what he has to say regarding the modern thresh variants versus landstill matchups.
I think more players are going to start playing Thrash because of recent articles, like this. I think that 3 color landstill is a better choice right now than 4 color, because of Thrash, Moon Thresh etc.
Well the thing is landstill does have a favorable matchup against threshold in general or else why bother even playing with landstill. It's basically one of the main merits to play landstill in the format.
I think clemens pretty much give the notion that his uwb landstill versus thrash matchup is closer to even especially after boarding.
Well going 50-50 is definetly much better then nothing though obviously. As I said before I wouldn't totally discount anything that clemens said because generally he plays landstill alot and knows his matchups well with landstill.
The threshold variants in his meta are pretty much the same anywhere else.
I swore to tear Heaven asunder
As flights of fallen angels wished me
Godspeed on the Devil's Thunder.
Thanks Magus of the Sheep for this great border!
2009 ....
Top 8 Regionals
Top 32 GP Chicago
PTQ Top 8's - 2