I was originally going to write a section about the future of cycling design but the decided against it as part of the fun of bringing old mechanics back is seeing what new things we do with it. For example, this fall when we bring back [CENSORED] . I don't think anyone would have expected [CENSORED] (really, if someone told you we'd have [CENSORED] without [CENSORED] , would you have believed them?).
As the title suggests, we know the mechanic is kicker, we now need to figure out what it is without.
Please read posts #886 (a checklist of what info we have about this mechanic) and #1122 (a rundown of what options for "Y" have already been considered) before posting in this thread.
Sure, stuff like Snapping Drake and Goblin Piker are for limited. But Null isn't even playable against a 5 year old whose hand consists of a 6 of Clubs, Blue-Eyes White Dragon, Chimney Imp, and a very large cumquat.
I suspect splice without Arcane. Affinity is just too problematic, really, and splice makes even more sense because it always was "splice onto Arcane" and everyone kinda expected at least one "splice onto instant" spell or whatever (am I right?).
Or, of course, it could be some mechanic that hasn't been previously keyworded.
Maybe a modified version of affinity. For instance, a black creature having "affinity for Islands" or "affinity for blue permanents". It would tie back to that "~this does x when it comes into play if you control a blue permanent" that they started in Shadowmoor, and continued in Shards.
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"What once was yours will be mine; your armies, your mind, and ultimatly, your life."
We have reasons already to suspect that poison will return in Live; however, poison without creatures that deal it is just pretty dumb. They do pretty much *everything* on creatures. This still leaves the possibility of "poison without poisonous", if they decided that the way poisonous was templated was a bad decision, but that doesn't seem too likely either.
It seems most probable that poison is returning but this is a reference to a different returning mechanic.
@Nokiou: as for this kind of splice i think they will not do it because of memory issue, how would you be able to remember which card have what abilities, because unlike enchant creature, you keep the card in your hand after you splice.
Well, I'd have to vote for threshold even though there was one article where they highlighted the change. Threshold without a graveyard theme would be interesting. Of course, it could just as easily have a new name, like Hellbent did.
Alternate cost entwine would be cool, too. I don't remember if they did that at all during Mirrodin.
Amplify without creature types would be interesting. (yes, I love +1/+1 mechanics)
Radiance in a monocolor block would certainly be extremely powerful.
Alternate cost transmute/transfigure would be cool although it could get really broken with transmute.
We were promised Replicate would return, so replicate without being the same mana cost.
It could be storm without any ritual effects.
It could be Aura Swap without the aura part. You'd have to really walk on eggshells with it, though.
Threshold without flashback. Or other way around. Those two were quite popular mechanics and, as a part of a graveyard/discard theme, so sinergystic that pesonally I can barely imagine one without anorther. Or is it that I'm just longing for a similar to Odissey block environment? I've started playing mtg those days...
It isn't threshold...MaRo already specifically said that they are doing a mechanic that rewards you for doing something you want to do, the opposite of Threshold.
I agree with those that say Poison without Poisonous...it makes the most sense here. Noone would bat an eye at splice...
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It isn't threshold...MaRo already specifically said that they are doing a mechanic that rewards you for doing something you want to do, the opposite of Threshold.
When he said that I don't think he was talking about this mechanic
It isn't threshold...MaRo already specifically said that they are doing a mechanic that rewards you for doing something you want to do, the opposite of Threshold.
I agree with those that say Poison without Poisonous...it makes the most sense here. Noone would bat an eye at splice...
Well, threshold is a pretty generic word, so you could really use it for anything. It could even be "If [something], [something]" such as "If you control five or more creatures, creatures you control have persist." It's just not likely because threshold is now tied in people's minds to the seven plus cards in your graveyard mechanic.
When he said that I don't think he was talking about this mechanic
Threshold isn't coming back. I can pull the article later, but he said 'Mechanics like threshold force players to do something they don't want to do, discard cards and fill their graveyard, to get their effect. The mechanic in Live rewards players for doing something they want to do.'
The article was stressing the need to make mechanics that make sense, and don't require things like Theshold did, that make players do things that aren't in their best interests. (We already had flashback without threshold anyway)
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I don't care if threshold comes back or not, but I'm pretty sure today's article and the mechanic he mentioned earlier are two different things.
I'm not saying they aren't, but MaRo was arguing against making set mechanics like those that went with threshold, and then he mentioned a mechanic in Live.
Live is not going to have threshold, seeing how he specifically argued against the mechanic, and what it means for a set's design.
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Q: What is your favorite win condition and what card do you love to use to get there?
–@martates, Twitter A: From Magic R&D (and associates): Mark Rosewater: Poison. : )
You know, with the whole 'play' being changed to 'cast' thing for M10. And with counter meaning two different things... Could it be Poison without Poison counters? Hmmm......
You know, with the whole 'play' being changed to 'cast' thing for M10. And with counter meaning two different things... Could it be Poison without Poison counters? Hmmm......
That's entirely possible. They could have a poison total and use a 10 sided die for it.
if someone told you we'd have [CENSORED] without [CENSORED] , would you have believed them?).
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Could it be Poison without Poison counters?
"Poison without poison counters"? I could see it. I think that's a very good guess.
There really is no reason for them to be counters. They don't attach to any object or card, they're not in play, they just sit there tracking a number. It more closely resembles the life total than it does any sort of counter. It could easily be changed to "poison level" or "poison total" with no real change to their function. Plus it would remove confusion between "poison counters" and other game objects like "+1/+1 counters".
Im thinking its phasing, because it was a very old mechanic that worked well. In fact, i would be surprised if it wasent phasing.
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Giant Growth: Yeah, Richard! You make those "3-of-something-for-1-mana" cards!
Healing Salve: Go, Richard! Keep that cycle going!
Lightning Bolt: Wow, dude, that's really powerful. Make sure to keep this common-appropriate!
Dark Ritual: What are you doing? That's obviously better than the other three!
Ancestral Recall: Seriously? You want us to make this a common? Really?
A die/total/level = counters, just using a different name. Functionally equivalent anyway. I see more 'Oh, cute..' than 'Innovative' in that approach.
The only way I'll welcome Poison back is if they radically change its use/function. It's just weak. Base an entire set around it? No thanks. An entire BLOCK?
My vote is Splice. Hands-down. A mechanic that is actually interesting, AND has so much room left to explore. It's sweet. Tethering it JUST to Spirits/Arcane always seemed rather foolish.
Yes. A thousand times yes. They lured me in with Ivory Tower and Zuran Orb, and I kept telling myself "I can quit whenever I want...just look at that untapped disk". That was ten years ago man.....
(puts face in hands and weeps)
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As the title suggests, we know the mechanic is kicker, we now need to figure out what it is without.
Article for reference:
http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/mm/27
Mod Edit for Relevant Information:
Please read posts #886 (a checklist of what info we have about this mechanic) and #1122 (a rundown of what options for "Y" have already been considered) before posting in this thread.
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Or, of course, it could be some mechanic that hasn't been previously keyworded.
Hmmm, good call. Poison counters without creatures that give them...?
Or, a mechanic that is exemplified in a particular card, and that card is not in the new set.
Very Well Then I Contradict Myself.
It seems most probable that poison is returning but this is a reference to a different returning mechanic.
My guess would also be poison...
Alternate cost entwine would be cool, too. I don't remember if they did that at all during Mirrodin.
Amplify without creature types would be interesting. (yes, I love +1/+1 mechanics)
Radiance in a monocolor block would certainly be extremely powerful.
Alternate cost transmute/transfigure would be cool although it could get really broken with transmute.
We were promised Replicate would return, so replicate without being the same mana cost.
It could be storm without any ritual effects.
It could be Aura Swap without the aura part. You'd have to really walk on eggshells with it, though.
Granduer without Korlash.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=5401186#post5401186
I agree with those that say Poison without Poisonous...it makes the most sense here. Noone would bat an eye at splice...
Twitter
When he said that I don't think he was talking about this mechanic
Well, threshold is a pretty generic word, so you could really use it for anything. It could even be "If [something], [something]" such as "If you control five or more creatures, creatures you control have persist." It's just not likely because threshold is now tied in people's minds to the seven plus cards in your graveyard mechanic.
Threshold isn't coming back. I can pull the article later, but he said 'Mechanics like threshold force players to do something they don't want to do, discard cards and fill their graveyard, to get their effect. The mechanic in Live rewards players for doing something they want to do.'
The article was stressing the need to make mechanics that make sense, and don't require things like Theshold did, that make players do things that aren't in their best interests. (We already had flashback without threshold anyway)
Twitter
I'm not saying they aren't, but MaRo was arguing against making set mechanics like those that went with threshold, and then he mentioned a mechanic in Live.
Live is not going to have threshold, seeing how he specifically argued against the mechanic, and what it means for a set's design.
Twitter
Ask Wizards Twitter Article.
Q: What is your favorite win condition and what card do you love to use to get there?
–@martates, Twitter
A: From Magic R&D (and associates):
Mark Rosewater: Poison. : )
A hint?
"poison dart 1G instant
poision dart does one damage to target player that player recieves a poison counter"
That's entirely possible. They could have a poison total and use a 10 sided die for it.
"Poison without poison counters"? I could see it. I think that's a very good guess.
There really is no reason for them to be counters. They don't attach to any object or card, they're not in play, they just sit there tracking a number. It more closely resembles the life total than it does any sort of counter. It could easily be changed to "poison level" or "poison total" with no real change to their function. Plus it would remove confusion between "poison counters" and other game objects like "+1/+1 counters".
Healing Salve: Go, Richard! Keep that cycle going!
Lightning Bolt: Wow, dude, that's really powerful. Make sure to keep this common-appropriate!
Dark Ritual: What are you doing? That's obviously better than the other three!
Ancestral Recall: Seriously? You want us to make this a common? Really?
The only way I'll welcome Poison back is if they radically change its use/function. It's just weak. Base an entire set around it? No thanks. An entire BLOCK?
My vote is Splice. Hands-down. A mechanic that is actually interesting, AND has so much room left to explore. It's sweet. Tethering it JUST to Spirits/Arcane always seemed rather foolish.
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Given how unintuitive the rules behind phasing are I'm going to hope you're being sarcastic.
What about "Bushido without samurai," or "Ninjutsu without ninjas"?
[card=Jace Beleren]Jace[/card] = Jace
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The first rule of Cursecatcher is, You do not talk about Cursecatcher.
Consider flying without wings? It's a difficult concept to use because of the flavor and other associations we have of the two.
Personally, I'd like to see imprint without artifacts. I think it would be intriguing to see how far design can go with it.