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tidehollow would improve the control matchups....I like the clique because once mid to late game decks stabalize, we will need a bigger threat, and if you have wrath in the sb it is even better....grabbing cloudgoats, cloudthreashers, broodmates, and reveillark etc...
How do you guys feel about Mirrorweavex2 in here as a finisher? I've always liked it and at instant speed it catches a lot of people off-guard game 1 and games 2 and 3 it makes the question if you have it when blocking.
How do you guys feel about Mirrorweavex2 in here as a finisher? I've always liked it and at instant speed it catches a lot of people off-guard game 1 and games 2 and 3 it makes the question if you have it when blocking.
great against non token decks and only when they r tapped out
Cedric Philips used Mirrorweave at Barcelona, and he seemed to do good out of it. It seems like playing one Mirrorweave would really scare your opponets the rest of the round.
Mirrorweave is a fun little card. Nothing like seeing three Demigods flying at you then turning them all into spirit tokens and leaving your enemy tapped out.
But I think the B/W variant as posted on the top is the best version of Kith right now.
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Kithkin
Kudos to Spiderboy4 at Highlight Studios for the avatar and signature. Check his shop out if you want the best
Nice catch, Tono. Not many people consider Mirrorweave's defensive use when looking to include it in lists, but that's where it shines.
I really like Mirrorweave, and I think it's worth two slots, especially in a Mono-white Kithkin build. Not only does it end games early, but it keeps you alive to swing for hefty damage when you shouldn't survive.
Also, I'll throw my two cents in the ring on BW vs Mono-W Kithkin. A friend has been testing Kithkin lately as a possible deck and I've seen some ridiculous plays off of Zealous Persecution, especially combined with KoM's First Strike. For example, three 3/3 (Kithkin) Tokens and a 4/3 Kitchen Finks become 2/2s and a 3/2, and a 5/5 Knight (Two counters from Ajani and a Wizened Cenn in play) became a 6/6, blocking all 4, killing 3 with first strike and surviving with toughness to spare.
So, I think that Zealous Persecution really makes all the difference and makes up for the splash many times over. It makes a huge impact on the game every time it's played, and that's more than enough to justify the splash IMO.
i had bitterblossom in my sideboard on saturday for the ptq and liked it alot. Even tho i didnt do well it was my mvp for the token and control match up.
@ kwebie. You need a splash either red or black. Its just to weak w/o it.
I think the mono-white version of this deck is still very playable. Yes, Zealous Persecution is an amazing card, but the deck can win perfectly well without it, and it can be played around against tokens or the mirror.
I made top 8 with a mono white build of this deck in my PTQ this past Saturday, and I have to to say that the biggest strength of this deck (at least for me) is its consistency. What it lacks in power it makes up for in a VERY consistent mana base, without which its impossible to go 6-1 in the swiss rounds without being mana screwed at least once.
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I'm just wondering if I'm the only one that thinks this, but I think R/W kithkin is horrible in the new meta. Ajani Vengeant just doesn't have enough power in the new meta.
Zealous persecution is obviously crazy good these days, making B the splash of choice here. Right now, I think that the tokens matchups (both of them) need work. If there's any way to give all of the tokens evasion or something like that, it'd be great. Batwing brume sounds like a good idea too. Fog the overrun and they take 3-10 damage. It sounds good to me.
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4. Metal Gear Solid
3. Super Mario 64
2. Ocarina of Time
1. Cave Story
^ Seriously, play it and thank me later.
Unfortunately for me, I could not get my hands on any Mutavaults (I would have run 2) or a second Rustic Clachan.
Sideboard thoughts:
- Wispmares are amazing. Next time I run this deck I'm sideboarding 3 for sure, maybe even 4.
- Mirrorweave is interesting, and can provide for a lot of creative plays against different decks.
- I used to be a big fan of Wrath of God in this sideboard a few weeks ago, but it didn't really do much for this weekend. I'm probably gonna drop this down to 2.
- The Oblivion Rings are there because I sometimes want more than 4 removal slots against certain decks, but I don't think I ever brought them in this weekend. Thinking about switching them out for Unmakes?
- Windborn Muse was a great stallout card against tokens, but doesn't help you actually win the game at all. Probably gonna be taken out.
BW Tokens is by far the worst matchup for this deck (although my sideboard plan on Saturday wasn't the greatest; slightly better results in testing yesterday). There's a very good chance I'm gonna add in a 4th Ajani Goldmane to my sideboard because its so crucial for the matchup.
Overall, I played a lot of cascade control decks in the swiss, and did reasonably well against them. Lucky for me, out of 8 matches I only played against tokens twice, once in the swiss (where he got mana screwed 2 games straight), and then I lost to tokens in the quarterfinals.
-Numegil
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So I've gotta ask the obvious question: How do you do against Swans? I actually advised a friend to play BW Kithkin at Seattle because out of all the Aggro decks I think it has the best chance. Fast early pressure combined with excellent Sideboard options in Needle and Everlasting Torment -- which is also a winner against Fog -- make it very attractive in the meta right now. Am I wrong?
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Some people like to win MtG matches in the Red Zone. I prefer to win the way God intended: on the stack.
swans cna be really easy or hard. G1 is a walk in the park if they dont have the god hand turn 4 win. g2 it depends on both players sideboard and draw. Swans is very draw dependant on both sides. If your playing thoughtsieze/sculler u have a huge advantage. For an average decklist id say 55/45 our favor. W/ my list because i play thoughtsieze i would say 65/35.
Aman,
Are you sure you're not just picking numbers out of the air for that 65/35 matchup claim? Like, I know thoughtseize is helpful, but just randomly saying that because you run it you gain 10 points in the matchup seems...absurd, to say the least. Not only does b/w kithkin not always see the black land to cast the thoughtseize before its too late, not only does casting the thoughtseize wreck your 1-2-3 curve completely, but with a virtual 12 or so potential copies of assault to cascade into, it seems like it wouldn't give you a 10 point edge. And don't tell me you can thoughtseize a swans and be ok with them having assault, it lets them decimate your board and get about a million extra turns to go off. I know I seem pretty pessimistic right now, but I am planning on taking b/w tokens or b/w kithkin to a ptq next weekend, and I would love to be confident in my cascade swans matchup without giving up on a sideboard for the rest of the field.
Azamat
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My first PTQ top 8 - PTQ Richmond - 5/9/09
2nd place...
PTQ Rockville - 1/16/10
GOT THERE!!!!!!
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2 Caves Of Koilos
4 Fetid Heath
2 Mutavault
2 Rustic Clachan
4 Windbrisk Heights
11 Plains
Creatures
4 Cloudgoat Ranger
4 Figure Of Destiny
4 Goldmeadow Stalwart
4 Knight Of Meadowgrain
4 Wizened Cenn
4 Path To Exile
4 Zealous Persecution
3 Ajani Goldmane
4 Spectral Procession
2 Burrenton Forge-tender
2 Ranger Of Eos
3 Reveillark
3 Oblivion Ring
1 Elspeth, Knight-errant
1 Identity Crisis
3 Wrath Of God
Keep all posts on-topic. Decks posted in this thread are to be of similar design and all posts herein are to be related to this archetype. Anything else will be marked as spam and infracted.
Read my Constructed column on Star City, Thirst for Knowledge!
View my MTGS-era TFK articles here!
What are its bad and good matchups?
Also, Ive seen the profane command list and was wondering why 3? getting to double black is not easy unless you hit a fetid heath...
I wouldn't play Profane Command, if you play W/b it should probably be just for Zealous Persecution.
How are the Puppeteer Cliques working for you? I've considered them but I'm not quite sure.
I wouldn't play them, they don't seem all that great.
Tidehollow Sculler
great against non token decks and only when they r tapped out
But I think the B/W variant as posted on the top is the best version of Kith right now.
Kudos to Spiderboy4 at Highlight Studios for the avatar and signature. Check his shop out if you want the best
I really like Mirrorweave, and I think it's worth two slots, especially in a Mono-white Kithkin build. Not only does it end games early, but it keeps you alive to swing for hefty damage when you shouldn't survive.
Also, I'll throw my two cents in the ring on BW vs Mono-W Kithkin. A friend has been testing Kithkin lately as a possible deck and I've seen some ridiculous plays off of Zealous Persecution, especially combined with KoM's First Strike. For example, three 3/3 (Kithkin) Tokens and a 4/3 Kitchen Finks become 2/2s and a 3/2, and a 5/5 Knight (Two counters from Ajani and a Wizened Cenn in play) became a 6/6, blocking all 4, killing 3 with first strike and surviving with toughness to spare.
So, I think that Zealous Persecution really makes all the difference and makes up for the splash many times over. It makes a huge impact on the game every time it's played, and that's more than enough to justify the splash IMO.
@ kwebie. You need a splash either red or black. Its just to weak w/o it.
I made top 8 with a mono white build of this deck in my PTQ this past Saturday, and I have to to say that the biggest strength of this deck (at least for me) is its consistency. What it lacks in power it makes up for in a VERY consistent mana base, without which its impossible to go 6-1 in the swiss rounds without being mana screwed at least once.
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(='.'=)This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into your
(")_(")signature to help him gain world domination!
Kudos to Spiderboy4 at Highlight Studios for the avatar and signature. Check his shop out if you want the best
Zealous persecution is obviously crazy good these days, making B the splash of choice here. Right now, I think that the tokens matchups (both of them) need work. If there's any way to give all of the tokens evasion or something like that, it'd be great. Batwing brume sounds like a good idea too. Fog the overrun and they take 3-10 damage. It sounds good to me.
Best video games of all time:
4. Metal Gear Solid
3. Super Mario 64
2. Ocarina of Time
1. Cave Story
^ Seriously, play it and thank me later.
4 [LRW] Windbrisk Heights
1 [MOR] Rustic Clachan
18 [UNH] Plains
// Creatures
4 [LRW] Goldmeadow Stalwart
4 [EVE] Figure of Destiny
4 [LRW] Knight of Meadowgrain
4 [LRW] Wizened Cenn
4 [LRW] Cloudgoat Ranger
1 [LRW] Burrenton Forge-Tender
3 [LRW] Ajani Goldmane
2 [ALA] Ranger of Eos
4 [SHM] Spectral Procession
4 [CFX] Path to Exile
3 [9E] Glorious Anthem
Unfortunately for me, I could not get my hands on any Mutavaults (I would have run 2) or a second Rustic Clachan.
Sideboard thoughts:
- Wispmares are amazing. Next time I run this deck I'm sideboarding 3 for sure, maybe even 4.
- Mirrorweave is interesting, and can provide for a lot of creative plays against different decks.
- I used to be a big fan of Wrath of God in this sideboard a few weeks ago, but it didn't really do much for this weekend. I'm probably gonna drop this down to 2.
- The Oblivion Rings are there because I sometimes want more than 4 removal slots against certain decks, but I don't think I ever brought them in this weekend. Thinking about switching them out for Unmakes?
- Windborn Muse was a great stallout card against tokens, but doesn't help you actually win the game at all. Probably gonna be taken out.
BW Tokens is by far the worst matchup for this deck (although my sideboard plan on Saturday wasn't the greatest; slightly better results in testing yesterday). There's a very good chance I'm gonna add in a 4th Ajani Goldmane to my sideboard because its so crucial for the matchup.
Overall, I played a lot of cascade control decks in the swiss, and did reasonably well against them. Lucky for me, out of 8 matches I only played against tokens twice, once in the swiss (where he got mana screwed 2 games straight), and then I lost to tokens in the quarterfinals.
-Numegil
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I don't know but isn't 3 Ajani and 3 Anthem a bit overkill? If I were to run them in the same deck maybe a 2 Ajani and 2 Anthem.
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He's talking about Ajani/Anthem split ratio of GW deck.
So I've gotta ask the obvious question: How do you do against Swans? I actually advised a friend to play BW Kithkin at Seattle because out of all the Aggro decks I think it has the best chance. Fast early pressure combined with excellent Sideboard options in Needle and Everlasting Torment -- which is also a winner against Fog -- make it very attractive in the meta right now. Am I wrong?
Are you sure you're not just picking numbers out of the air for that 65/35 matchup claim? Like, I know thoughtseize is helpful, but just randomly saying that because you run it you gain 10 points in the matchup seems...absurd, to say the least. Not only does b/w kithkin not always see the black land to cast the thoughtseize before its too late, not only does casting the thoughtseize wreck your 1-2-3 curve completely, but with a virtual 12 or so potential copies of assault to cascade into, it seems like it wouldn't give you a 10 point edge. And don't tell me you can thoughtseize a swans and be ok with them having assault, it lets them decimate your board and get about a million extra turns to go off. I know I seem pretty pessimistic right now, but I am planning on taking b/w tokens or b/w kithkin to a ptq next weekend, and I would love to be confident in my cascade swans matchup without giving up on a sideboard for the rest of the field.
Azamat
2nd place...
PTQ Rockville - 1/16/10
GOT THERE!!!!!!