Post 54: Votes for NA. Not really a big deal at the time, though it will show a pattern later because every vote he makes is just a barn of someone else.
Post 63: Explains that he is voting NA not because NA voted WoD after WoD asked people not to vote him, but BECAUSE WoD asked people not to vote him. He spends the next few posts explaining this, but somehow missing that a scum is not likely to use the reason that NA did as justification. Feels like he is splitting hairs to justify his vote.
His point about NA trying to use the 'random vote' as an excuse is valid, however.
Post 133: Disagrees with people that NA hadn't had a chance to defend himself. This can't be considered a tell either way, because it's a matter of opinion.
Post 149: Continues to go at NA. This post is pretty reasonable, to be fair.
Post 192: Dismisses 'being a newb' as a reasoning for NA's actions. This one is harder. Even if you don't LIKE that 'being a newb' is a reason for making dumb mistakes, this doesn't change the fact that, in reality, it is. Feels like he is trying too hard again.
Post 267: Further discussion of his vote for NA. This post is also reasonable.
Post 298: FoSes Jobie, because Jobie is defending NA with the newb card. This post seems bad to me. Guardman takes a difference of opinion(whether or not newb defense is a valid defense) and tries to use it to implicate Jobie as NA's scumbuddy. He also comments on CM, but doesn't want to be distracted from the NA wagon.
Post 300: Says that he doesn't think that NA is acting like a newb town, but doesn't explain why.
Post 383: Ad homs me. I suppose that's not really a tell, but to me a townie is always going to defend himself/his points, even if it requires him to be vocal and assertive. Guardman hasn't had a problem defending himself to anyone else in this thread, so I think that ultimately this post/excuse rings hollow.
Post 415: See post 383.
Post 418: Promises a re-read on WoD. I'm pretty sure that said re-read never happened.
Post 436: Defends his initial stance against NA. Except that it feels like he is backpedalling from his previous position. Earlier, he made it clear that he was voting NA because he felt that NA voted WoD out of spite. Now he is trying to explain it as something else.
This is fairly confusing to me. Guardman's initial reasoning for getting on the NA wagon seems extremely scummy. However, his followup reasons(responses to NA) are all completely legitimate. Of course, these all came after the fact, and are mostly just a result of NA responding poorly to his own wagon. I think that Guardman just got lucky, in that he got onto a wagon for a scummy reason, then the wagonee reacted poorly to pressure, giving Guardman some additional legitimate reasons to add on.
Then, to further compound this, even immediately after saying 'I think NA is scum and nothing has changed my mind', he bails on the wagon, moving over to PM, citing Ced's attack on PM as his reason for doing so.
This feels about as disingenuous to me as can be. He has spent the entire day, to this point, defending his stance that NA is scum(including this post). I can't believe that a townie would just give this up, based on an accusation of active lurking(one that PM hadn't even had a chance to defend himself against yet).
It seems like he realized that the NA wagon wasn't going anywhere, and rather admit this, he tried to play it off. This is a typical newb scum mistake.
Post 481: In an earlier post, SO question's Guardman on whether or not he has completed a promised re-read. GM says no, but says that while re-reading, he did notice that Kpaca is scum, and lists a million metagame reasons as to why. He ditches the PM case in the process, even though previously proclaiming it to be 'better than the NA case'(the one that he spent all day arguing in favor of). It doesn't seem like a coincidence that he bailed on the case immediately after Ced also bailed on it. I'm not sure what to make of this, but again, it feels like the typical newb scum play of 'follow the lead of someone you know to be town'.
Post 496: Ecophagy mentions the same that I just did, re: the PM wagon and switching to Kpaca. GM tries to defend against this, but his defense seems lacking. He says that he 'was satisfied with PM's response'. Too bad he didn't mention this in the first place. Also, he OMGUSes me in this post, saying that he is 'taking my suspicion of him with a grain of salt, because I'm 4th on his list'. He has not made even the most remote mention of suspicion towards me before this point.
Post 504: Says that Kpaca, NA, and myself must all be scumbuddies, based on reasons that are completely gaming the Mod. To be fair, this post is more of just a newb mistake than a newb scum mistake.
Post 576: Defends his case against PM...even though he has since given up on it and says that he was satisfied with PM's responses. I don't see why he would still be questioning those responses if he was satisfied with them.
Post 705: Starts of Day 2 with a complete OMGUS of Ecophagy, even though he has never expressed even a modicum of suspicion towards Ecophagy previously.
Post 773: Says that he never commented on the CM wagon because he 'didn't know what to think of CM'. I don't read this as sincere, it seems to me like he just figured he didn't need to get involved in the wagon, and as such, didn't comment on it. Also says that people have to 'just accept' that arguing with him is frustrating. This seems like a far cry from yesterday, where he repeatedly stated that he was not responding to MY comments because he didn't want to get into the same type of argument with me.
Post 804: Says that he doesn't like the case against AE, uses this as a reason to vote Eco(because Eco defended AE).
Post 809: Says that he thinks Eco is just vouching for AE because he wants to get brownie points. This is a possibility, though not one that I agree with.
Post 877: Gives up on the Eco wagon, choosing instead to barn PM re: Ace. This is pretty fascinating, considering that the last thing GM ever said to PM was 'I think you're scum'(paraphrase).
Post 883: Attacks Ged for defending Ace.
Post 908: Quickly bails on the Ace wagon, which is obviously going nowhere, jumping on a scummy post by Andelijah.
Post 942: Says that his barn post of myself/TMT wasn't a barn, because it just takes him longer to post(fair point, I guess he can't be bothered to preview) and because he voted when we didn't. This last bit is a tell against GM, not a point for him.
Ultimately, I think that GM has shown some pro-town behavior(some of his reasons for voting NA were valid, but again, this came after he was already on the wagon), but for the most part, he has blindly followed people from one wagon to the next, trying to make absolutely anything stick, declaring the wagon really strong, then just as quickly abandoned it. Unvote, Vote Guardman
Well I guess I'll claim since I am now at L-1 thanks to Cyan. I am Caecilius Liberalis and my Profession is Savior and I am town. Once per day I can make a person lose all the votes they have on them. I am willing to show my ability, just tell me who's votes you would like reset.
@kpaca: since you are replacing Ace I would like to hear your responses and reasoning to his past couple of posts:
Apologies for my absence. Chemotherapy is never fun. I was thinking of /replacing, but I don't want to muck up this game (with SB's absence, it already has been enough).
Some quick thoughts:
Guardman's last few posts are abominable. His reaction to Eco's quite safe claim to save AE from a potential mislynch by [I]voting[/I] him is absurd. Truly, what townie would turn around and try to push that lynch without at least a little discussion amongst the town? It also amuses me that he attempts to justify his vote based purely upon two things: Role analysis, and a table of "what-if's", which are so ridiculously WIFOM that I'm not even going to touch them.
On the AE&Eco discussion : After rereading, I'm hesitant to believe both simply by way of role, but by gameplay, they haven't been the scummies on my lists.
At this point, both WoD and Guardman deserve a lynch.
As a point of interest, I find PM and Cyan to be the most townie this far. Which is horribly, horribly [i]wrong[i] that one should [I]ever[/I] be inclined to theorise that Cyan is town. :/
Plastic? I'm going to take that as a compliment by assuming you mean that I have the looks to be a potential (perfect) Barbie doll. Except I'm male; and [I]awesomer[/I] than Ken.
@WoD: dC summed it up pretty well. Freudian slip? Did [I]you[/I] even take that concept seriously?
This was anything but a defense. The last part of the sentence insinuates scummy action due to the vote. Allowing him to voice his defense doesn't change my opinion. It would have, however, allowed us to prevent a mislynch should such a thing occur later on in the day.
Alright, I'll be truly sincere - I'm not too crash hot at mafia. I also play incredibly defensively in [I]all[/I] my games (check them out if you don't believe me). I don't believe in dropping the vote too early, before any true suspiscions on my part are fully grounded. I will admit that by this point in the game that you are right, and I haven't given many truly insightful comments. For this I apologise, and it would be weak of me to solely blame my real life issues, but rather my poor playing skills.
For all these points you bring against me, you find something you like but then dismiss it simply because it doesn't provide vital scumhunting info, nor does it match up to other (legendary) players in the game? I really think you're really too attached to this idea of me being scum, and this paragraph attempts to justify your logic while dismissing facts.
I try to not say things that are already being said, or that others are saying. I've been burnt by saying such things in previous games, making me looking ridiculous, and often ridiculed for "talking stuff that's already being talked about".
Let's get this straight. Which are you attacking me for: Lack of content, scummy behaviour, or failure to provide promised content? I'm just confused because you tend to jump back and forth. I would like to know where I am being scummy, besides deflection (which I acknowledge to be a sign of my poor playstyle - keep it light, keep it fun).
I did not forget, I just found in a reread that my suspicions of AE were unfounded, and that my reasonings for both himself and Eco being possible scum were both 'absurd'. AE has come back with some insightful posts, and most certainly playing town at this point.
Loss of train-of-thought is simply laziness, not scummy-by-nature. As the SK, I did not lose my train of thought, but rather did not follow the game for the first few days, as I was not actually [I]in[/I] the game. I tend to mix up names ocassionally, and as I have professed, I prefer the defensive posting, not the incredibly offensive posts you'd see in some of the MTGSalvation mafia games. I do indeed intend to be more involved in this game, and I am here, and I will give my opinions as the time arises. I have posted who I think is town, and am trying to formulate who I believe deserves more discussion today.
Well I've done a reread on Guardman myself and Cyan's comments seem spot on. It feels as though Guardman has pointed a finger at almost everyone in the game at some point, but has behaved oddly on certain bandwagons, namely Ace and NA. I'm ready to vote him.
@Guardman- the ability itself seems rather useless, although I'm curious as to the specifics of it. Do you have to post the activation of your ability in the thread or can you PM the mod directly?
I said I'd answer any questions you have. I'm not sure how you want me to give you reasons for things someone else posted, that's just stupid.
Though here is my analysis of each:
Post 1: He is going through chemo, and thinks you're scum. I agree.
Post 2: He makes a nonsensical post. How the hell do you want me to reason that out for you. Go back, and read Tales of the Fantastic. Read Ace's posts. Then you'll probably be better able to understand it.
Post 3: Looks like a response to Pale Mage's attack. I'm not sure why you need me to explain that to you. It appears to be written pretty clearly.
On a side note, why didn't you respond to Cyan?
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Sorry, I didn't know that you were at L-2 when I voted. Unvote for caution.
That having been said, I'm ready to lynch Guardman now. A claim was pretty unlikely to do anything for him, and he obviously knew I had posted, and chose to completely ignore it.
I also don't see what offering to prove your ability means in this game.
Well I've done a reread on Guardman myself and Cyan's comments seem spot on. It feels as though Guardman has pointed a finger at almost everyone in the game at some point, but has behaved oddly on certain bandwagons, namely Ace and NA. I'm ready to vote him.
@Guardman- the ability itself seems rather useless, although I'm curious as to the specifics of it. Do you have to post the activation of your ability in the thread or can you PM the mod directly?
Doesn't say directly, but I am guessing it is a PM. And yeah it is a rather useless ability. But I am testing it out, to see.
I said I'd answer any questions you have. I'm not sure how you want me to give you reasons for things someone else posted, that's just stupid.
Though here is my analysis of each:
Post 1: He is going through chemo, and thinks you're scum. I agree.
Post 2: He makes a nonsensical post. How the hell do you want me to reason that out for you. Go back, and read Tales of the Fantastic. Read Ace's posts. Then you'll probably be better able to understand it.
Post 3: Looks like a response to Pale Mage's attack. I'm not sure why you need me to explain that to you. It appears to be written pretty clearly.
On a side note, why didn't you respond to Cyan?
Fair enough on the responses. I wanted to get your take on them. I don't expect you to know what was going on in Ace's head, but I do feel it is important to get a replacement's views on the last couple of posts (especially when the person is on the chopping block).
Since I was at L-1 I decided to claim before someone decided to go and lynch me before I claimed. I then went back and started to do a post by post response to Cyan, got frustrated over the tediousness of it and scrapped it. So I am going to do a general response to Cyan below.
Sorry, I didn't know that you were at L-2 when I voted. Unvote for caution.
That having been said, I'm ready to lynch Guardman now. A claim was pretty unlikely to do anything for him, and he obviously knew I had posted, and chose to completely ignore it.
I also don't see what offering to prove your ability means in this game.
EBWODP:
Blah. Sarnath'd by Kpaca. W/e.
Don't worry about the unvote, since I reset my votes.
I went after NA because he was the first one to show a clear scum tell, which he just compounded after the fact, which is why his case kept building. But his wagon never went anywhere and I felt my time would be better spent elsewhere then sitting on a dead wagon waving my arms and shouting "Look here's scum!" to deaf ears.
The PM wagon looking back on it was a bad wagon. I thought I saw something, but I think I was just frustrated that my NA wagon really went nowhere, despite the fact I think and you admit I had legitimate reasons to think he is scum. I think I was just looking for a new person to call scum and jumped on PM blindly.
kpaca's wagon I really thought I had something. Honestly it was more of a gut feeling, but it was a strong gut feeling which I couldn't pull away from. And my gut was telling me that there was something to this whole mafia clause thing. Plus with me finding kpaca playing differently then before just added to my conviction. I am honestly still surprised that kpaca wasn't scum.
Eco was a series of poor attacks and little day 1 activity that made me feel like he was trying to stay below the radar and attack me opportunistically. As for the AE confirmation, I've confirmed someone before as scum to get brownie points, and with the set-up it doesn't really make sense to lie about one's role. So yeah I don't think it really says anything about Eco.
Cantripmancer is just what I said. I didn't know what to think, so I kept my mouth shut.
AE I still think is town, because he is playing his standard town game.
Ace/kpaca was a series of poor posts, where I thought he was scum and that more pressure should be put on him to spark further discussion on to his previous behavior and poor defences (i.e. Barbie).
Andel was for driving home the whole let's lynch Ace before DYH can find a replacement. You can see my last couple posts for a further explanation.
Wait wait wait, you just said you'd let us choose someone for you to reset votes on, then you chose yourself?
Vote: Guardman.
Die scum die.
Actually nobody chose anything after all those posts, and I was curious to see how my ability worked so I decided to reset my own votes. Plus I want to give people the chance to reevaluate me and my previous posts before a zealous poster or scum decides to lynch me.
I don't think him resetting his own votes is a particularly big deal, but I'm not really satisfied with those reason(s) for the various wagons. It seems to me that, if you were town and recognized this pattern, you would have stopped doing it.
I don't think him resetting his own votes is a particularly big deal, but I'm not really satisfied with those reason(s) for the various wagons. It seems to me that, if you were town and recognized this pattern, you would have stopped doing it.
Probably not. But I still don't see a good town reason for doing it.
A good reason, to which faction's benefit we cannot know (if there even is one), but at least for him is the fact that he is alive right now and wouldn't be if he didn't do what he did.
Unvote, Vote: Guardman I read Cyan's case and basically I can agree with Guardman's "machine gun-like, ZOMG everyone but me must be scum strategy" is very scummy and should DIAF.
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No reason not to put my vote back. His post at kpaca to "explain these posts by Ace" was enough to seal the deal. Anyone should know that a replacement isn't going to be able to accurately explain his predecessor made certain posts. Feels like a trap to get people looking back to Ace/kpaca instead of him; try to get kpaca to defend the those posts, then call him scummy for it.
No reason not to put my vote back. His post at kpaca to "explain these posts by Ace" was enough to seal the deal. Anyone should know that a replacement isn't going to be able to accurately explain his predecessor made certain posts. Feels like a trap to get people looking back to Ace/kpaca instead of him; try to get kpaca to defend the those posts, then call him scummy for it.
Actually I just wanted his reasoning for those posts. Which is perfectly reasonable when you see a replacement. Basically I wanted kpaca to explain what he saw of those posts. I fail to see how that is scummy.
Actually I just wanted his reasoning for those posts. Which is perfectly reasonable when you see a replacement. Basically I wanted kpaca to explain what he saw of those posts. I fail to see how that is scummy.
They're not his posts. Asking him for reasoning on posts that aren't his accomplishes nothing, unless you're looking to start criticizing him over defending Ace's posts.
Actually I just wanted his reasoning for those posts. Which is perfectly reasonable when you see a replacement. Basically I wanted kpaca to explain what he saw of those posts. I fail to see how that is scummy.
Wouldn't logic dictate that anyone would be able to explain Ace's logic as well as Kpaca. In other words, couldn't you reason the posts just as well as Kpaca? That being said, no, it's not perfectly reasonable.
Replacing in for Wuffles doesn't mean you have to continue his absolute silence, BTW.
Sorry about that. I was on the edge of my seat reading up on this game 3 days ago and DYH never logged...until the day I had things to do. I had just tonight remembered I offered to replace.
Before I forget, @Ged, Cyan: Did you get mod confirmation that WoD would die with one more target? This matters.
Also, something i've been screaming at my computer for most of the week:
Roles do not indicate alignment!
So docs can be scum. Hell anyone can be scum, or town, or whatever. Meaning, behavior is the only thing we have to go on here, and maybe the random aid from a townie role.
Keeping all that in mind, with a fresh read, my top scums:
1. Cyan - I'm familiar with Cyan, his playstyle as scum and town. Now I've been out of the game(hardcore at least) since berserk mafia(if anyone remembers, I got in a flame war there), but my whole read Cyan's choices just seemed off. Day 1's lynch was all Cyan would post about, and when he came up town he didn't even flinch, just moved on to dog someone else. I generally haven't agreed with his lynch choices. Not only this, but he's been hopping around a lot Day 2(today). Thats also not like him at all. I was almost thinking maybe he has a posting restiction(these exist), but then he came out with an UNWARRANTED full claim. I say unwarranted because his reasoning for claiming was to counterclaim. But as we all know, that doesn't help in this setup! So instead of being a normal dogged Cyan(whom no one would question, its his style), he instead outed not just himself but another doc. I would not be surprised to see Ged get NKed at all.
(side note: I believe Ged to be likely town due to his Day 1 play, and his discretion involving his role.)
While his most recent choice, Guardman, is a bit reasonable, his past choices have not been so. I may end up doing a PBPA, but with Cyan its interactions, not content, for the most part.
2. archmage eternal - Post 723
guardman, wod, night archer,
2. archmage eternal - Post 723 made me raise my eyebrows and post 801 was just...bad. Not to mention he's very touchy and sensitive. Unless this is his usual play style, I wouldn't mind seeing him lynched.
3. Night Archer - Pretty much quiet now, Night Archer dominated the early game with his strange PM shinanigans. It has since been all but forgotten. I still think there may be something there, as well as his early posts defending himself. I could go for his lynch.
4. Guardman - 133, 436, and 481 are examples of Guardman's play, which has generally been shameless, blatant barning and bad logic. I could see him being town, but that has diminished every post he's barned someone after "totally 100% agreeing" with the last guy. I do agree with Cyan on this choice, but I'd rather get Cyan lynched first than Guardman, just to see if my 'Dar is still working.
5. Wrath of Dog - In post 775, its not only a stretch but kinda omgus as well, summing up my thoughts so far on WoD. I was almost satisfied with the thought of getting him vigged(in a sense) when in 840 he forgets the setup. While it is WIFOM to think that scum have a better sense of their strengths in this game than we may believe(getting to have a role to hide behind is excellent for the mafia), I do think WoD would have remembered what setup we're dealing with in the case of him being scum. Not a strong reasoning, but it did knock him down the list below Guardman and makes me want to continue my watch on him.
6. A Lurker? - We have a lot of semi/non-posters right now. I can almost guarantee at least 2 scum is in this category. I'm hoping the prods will stir up enough of them to get a better feel on the group, but I'm really nervous about the other half of the players who barely post. Ecophagy, Emo, Shadow Knight, etc.
That's my general thoughts right now. And without further ado... VOTE CYAN.
I've been all over today? Have you actually read my posts? I wasn't convinced by the case/wagon on AE, but then saw a Doc claim and got caught up in foolishly outing myself in a counterclaim, then upon realizing this, immediately unvoted and went back to my suspicion towards Guardman, which I made my case for today. A case that you say you agree with.
So yeah, you got me. I've been suspicious of all of..uhhh..Guardman today.
It's interesting that you're coming at me here. You're replacing for Wuffles, right? Wuffles had alot to say yesterday, the majority of which was just defending WoD mindlessly. Then today, when it was determined that WoD is dead tonight(and he is, I have mod confirmation that one more target will finish him..but don't worry, I'm sure Ged and I will both target him, just to be safe), Wuffles absolutely vanished. From THIS game, anyway. He's posted plenty on other parts of the forum, including other mafia games.
Of course, the reason for this is obvious. Wuffles knows that WoD is scum, and knows that when WoD is dead and reveals scum, I'm coming after him(you) next. Apparently you also realize this, hence your posts here.
And yes, you're right that a Doc can be scum in this game. Anyone can. But a scum Doc is simply not going to have the 'drawback' of killing someone he protects 3 times. This all but guarantees the scum an extra kill in the game, and probably 2(especially with Ged's role being in the game). That part of your statement is just desperate flailing.
Also, I love how your scum lists consists of A)2 people that are all but guaranteed to be dead, and I would be astounded to see either flip town, 2 people that the wagons on them have long since been abandoned, and me.
he instead outed not just himself but another doc. I would not be surprised to see Ged get NKed at all.
So.... you think Cyan is scum, yet you also believe he "outed Ged." If the former were true, he would have already known Ged's role and had no reason to share it with everyone else.
That and you have Wrath of Dog and Cyan on the same scum list. Considering one is killing the other, I'm not sure how you rationalize that.
I will be away without internet until late Friday/early Saturday visiting family.
I think he's saying that I outed Ged as 'another Doc', not as a scumbuddy. Which is silly, considering that A)Ged is only another Doc right now, I have no idea whether or not he can change his target to someone else at some point(though I can't see why he ever would) and B)If I were scum and he weren't, telling the town his role seems ridiculous. I'd just keep announcing my own targets in the thread and hope Ged targets the same person, giving the scum an extra kill every other day. Instead, after today, the town will obviously be in control of whom Ged and I target.
The whole thing is just a ridiculous pre-emptive strike for when WoD flips scum tonight.
Huh, that's weird. I have a one-shot ability to reset the entire votecount. (well, I say that, but I don't have access to it yet). Obviously you aren't lying, but it seems strange to only have such a seemingly inferior ability to mine, even if it can be used every day. Hmm.
Not necessarily scummy, though.
Ah. The bolded part could explain the above.
Guardman, anything more to claim?
No that is my entire ability, a once a day one person vote reset. Not that great of an ability really, but they can't all be winners like Cyan's ability.
I fail to see where I outline a perfectly reasonable impatient townie thought process. Trying to push through a lynch when the person has to be replaced mid discussion, before he really has a chance to defend himself. Seems like anti-town behavior and I have trouble seeing it come from a town mindset.
...anti-town behaviour comes from town mindsets all the time. A scum wouldn't be thinking '**** it, he'd be lynched anyway, let's kill him', a scum would be thinking 'quick, let's push this mislynch through, heh heh heh'.
I think you subconsciously know andelijah is town, because you're scum, and possibly Ace-now-kpaca is scum too. That's why you were so eager to skip wagons, and why your hypothetical-andelijah appears to be coming more from a town viewpoint than a scum one.
Well I guess I'll claim since I am now at L-1 thanks to Cyan. I am Caecilius Liberalis and my Profession is Savior and I am town. Once per day I can make a person lose all the votes they have on them. I am willing to show my ability, just tell me who's votes you would like reset.
@kpaca: since you are replacing Ace I would like to hear your responses and reasoning to his past couple of posts:
I went after NA because he was the first one to show a clear scum tell, which he just compounded after the fact, which is why his case kept building. But his wagon never went anywhere and I felt my time would be better spent elsewhere then sitting on a dead wagon waving my arms and shouting "Look here's scum!" to deaf ears.
The PM wagon looking back on it was a bad wagon. I thought I saw something, but I think I was just frustrated that my NA wagon really went nowhere, despite the fact I think and you admit I had legitimate reasons to think he is scum. I think I was just looking for a new person to call scum and jumped on PM blindly.
kpaca's wagon I really thought I had something. Honestly it was more of a gut feeling, but it was a strong gut feeling which I couldn't pull away from. And my gut was telling me that there was something to this whole mafia clause thing. Plus with me finding kpaca playing differently then before just added to my conviction. I am honestly still surprised that kpaca wasn't scum.
Eco was a series of poor attacks and little day 1 activity that made me feel like he was trying to stay below the radar and attack me opportunistically. As for the AE confirmation, I've confirmed someone before as scum to get brownie points, and with the set-up it doesn't really make sense to lie about one's role. So yeah I don't think it really says anything about Eco.
Cantripmancer is just what I said. I didn't know what to think, so I kept my mouth shut.
AE I still think is town, because he is playing his standard town game.
Ace/kpaca was a series of poor posts, where I thought he was scum and that more pressure should be put on him to spark further discussion on to his previous behavior and poor defences (i.e. Barbie).
Andel was for driving home the whole let's lynch Ace before DYH can find a replacement. You can see my last couple posts for a further explanation.
So.... let me summarize the above.
'I voted NightArcher because everyone was going after him for how scummy he was, but when his wagon died, I didn't make a case or anything, just went after someone else. I voted PM because I was looking for someone to jump on. I voted kpaca-the-1st for gut. I voted Eco out of OMGUS. I didn't say anything about CM because I had no opinion. I dismiss AE as town. I voted Ace-now-kpaca for pressure. And now I'm voting andelijah.'
...if I wasn't worried about accidentally ending the day, I would so be voting you right now.
(Having a double vote is more annoying than it seems, apparently.)
Two lurkers? I know you mean Shadow, but do you mean Wuffles or Ace or what? In any case, I don't remember my problem with either Wuffles or Ace being that they're lurking, more to do with what they are posting. Shadow was just me being annoyed at how he's completely failed to post here, despite posting elsewhere.
Wuffles. I might be remembering wrong as to your main thrust against Wuffles-now-Zionite, but I do recall you used his inactivity as one point against him.
Huh, that's weird. I have a one-shot ability to reset the entire votecount. (well, I say that, but I don't have access to it yet). Obviously you aren't lying, but it seems strange to only have such a seemingly inferior ability to mine, even if it can be used every day. Hmm.
Still not really feeling the Guardman case (although I'm a bit more interested in him due to the claim), and I'd really rather get back/reread people before a lynch happens.
For now, though:
UNVOTE KPACA
VOTE ZIONITE
....as much as I agree with many of the points you bring up about Zionite's 'case', I'm deeply interested in why you're not feeling the Guardman case, actually.
Unvote, Vote: Guardman I read Cyan's case and basically I can agree with Guardman's "machine gun-like, ZOMG everyone but me must be scum strategy" is very scummy and should DIAF.
....FoS: Jobie
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Jund Fangirl; Few things can describe the bliss of the fangirl's cries fading to silence (broken by occasional munching sounds).
Grixis Emo; 'Why should I go out there? They're all uncaring zombies! *sniff* No one understands me...' Bant Wageslave; Behind every successful knight is a corporate drudge doing his taxwork.
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My problem with the claimed ability is it does nothing (well, it could interact to cancel WoD's drawback, or screw the town in a deadline situation, but that's very very narrow and neither really seems like it has a pro-town use). Seems like it must combine with a second ability, or have a secondary effect- quite possibly a different effect depending on whether the role is town or mafia, if the earlier speculation about roles changing with alignment is correct.
I've been all over today? Have you actually read my posts? I wasn't convinced by the case/wagon on AE, but then saw a Doc claim and got caught up in foolishly outing myself in a counterclaim, then upon realizing this, immediately unvoted and went back to my suspicion towards Guardman, which I made my case for today. A case that you say you agree with.
So yeah, you got me. I've been suspicious of all of..uhhh..Guardman today.
It's interesting that you're coming at me here. You're replacing for Wuffles, right? Wuffles had alot to say yesterday, the majority of which was just defending WoD mindlessly. Then today, when it was determined that WoD is dead tonight(and he is, I have mod confirmation that one more target will finish him..but don't worry, I'm sure Ged and I will both target him, just to be safe), Wuffles absolutely vanished. From THIS game, anyway. He's posted plenty on other parts of the forum, including other mafia games.
Of course, the reason for this is obvious. Wuffles knows that WoD is scum, and knows that when WoD is dead and reveals scum, I'm coming after him(you) next. Apparently you also realize this, hence your posts here.
And yes, you're right that a Doc can be scum in this game. Anyone can. But a scum Doc is simply not going to have the 'drawback' of killing someone he protects 3 times. This all but guarantees the scum an extra kill in the game, and probably 2(especially with Ged's role being in the game). That part of your statement is just desperate flailing.
Also, I love how your scum lists consists of A)2 people that are all but guaranteed to be dead, and I would be astounded to see either flip town, 2 people that the wagons on them have long since been abandoned, and me.
What about your day 1 behavior?
Also, "But a scum Doc is simply not going to have the 'drawback' of killing someone he protects 3 times." is gaming the mod, er, the mods.
I don't see what you're getting at about wuffles defending WoD. My PM doesn't give me any reason to believe WoD is town or worth protecting. All I can think of is that wuffles and WoD are related and therefore have a predisposition to see each other go on to the end of mafia games.
This.
Zionite's Cyan case was ridiculous. I mean, his points were that Cyan pushed the Cantrip lynch (1. so did lots of people 2. It's Cyan. So?), and that he claimed easily and outed Ged's role (1. A scum woulod have been far more likely to keep quiet about things like that. 2. It's a bad move rather than scummy, and Zionite's going to lengths to show that bad=scummy, which is pretty much exactly how scum make cases to mislynch).
Not to mention, the rest of his list is somewhat lazy. You can pick out bad AE posts? Great. That is how AE posts (well, his posts today are, anyway). He barns the Guardman case (and is ok with his lynch, even with Cyan pushing it?), and it's a similar story with WoD, except he also goes to lengths to defend him on a point which is essentially WIFOM. Right.
Still not really feeling the Guardman case (although I'm a bit more interested in him due to the claim), and I'd really rather get back/reread people before a lynch happens.
For now, though:
UNVOTE KPACA
VOTE ZIONITE
It wasn't really a case, just my reasoning. If you think I'm "going to lengths" when I just state my general thoughts, you're gonna hate it when I actually make a case. I generally don't to a case straight out of the replacement starting gate unless I disagree with the current wagon. And I think you generally misinterpreted it anyway. I analyzed Cyan with previous play experience in mind, and something is definitely up with him.
Besides, have you had an original thought this game?
And I'm not sure why you're voting for a supposedly bad case. If you voted everyone with a bad case well...you'd be ced. Nvm.
No that is my entire ability, a once a day one person vote reset. Not that great of an ability really, but they can't all be winners like Cyan's ability.
Well we've seen parallel abilities, so I guess this could happen too. Honestly I don't know why anyone even claims unless it clears someone. It doesn't give us anything to go on and it gives mafia targets *cough cough* watchers and trackers *cough*
So.... you think Cyan is scum, yet you also believe he "outed Ged." If the former were true, he would have already known Ged's role and had no reason to share it with everyone else.
whoa.
you blew my mind. I believe you are right good sir.
That and you have Wrath of Dog and Cyan on the same scum list. Considering one is killing the other, I'm not sure how you rationalize that.
Wrath of Dog is low on my list. I think(thought) Cyan is(was) scummier. The reason being already stated above. He made that slip and it makes me think he's town.
Though now that I think about it...Cyan kinda made the same slip. So I'd have to hold them both to the same standard.
...
Maybe I should sleep on this. I think I just wanted to fight with Cyan.
...anti-town behaviour comes from town mindsets all the time. A scum wouldn't be thinking '**** it, he'd be lynched anyway, let's kill him', a scum would be thinking 'quick, let's push this mislynch through, heh heh heh'.
Aren't those two things exactly the same except for the evil laugh?
I think you subconsciously know andelijah is town, because you're scum, and possibly Ace-now-kpaca is scum too. That's why you were so eager to skip wagons, and why your hypothetical-andelijah appears to be coming more from a town viewpoint than a scum one.
No, I think he is scum for saying, screw it let's lynch him, before DYH can get a replacement. Why is this so hard for you to understand?
So.... let me summarize the above.
'I voted NightArcher because everyone was going after him for how scummy he was, but when his wagon died, I didn't make a case or anything, just went after someone else. I voted PM because I was looking for someone to jump on. I voted kpaca-the-1st for gut. I voted Eco out of OMGUS. I didn't say anything about CM because I had no opinion. I dismiss AE as town. I voted Ace-now-kpaca for pressure. And now I'm voting andelijah.'
...if I wasn't worried about accidentally ending the day, I would so be voting you right now.
No I voted NA because I think he is scum and still do, and I made a case against him that was ignored, to the point where I was alone on it waving my hands saying "Here is scum!" Go back and look, it's there in black and white for all to see. I was on there for quite some time, but it was going nowhere fast despite my best efforts, and I decided my time and energy would be better spent elsewhere than a wagon that was going nowhere fast.
I voted PM because I was frustrated and jumped on the first decent looking scum candidate I saw, which was PM. I admitted that it was a bad wagon, and got off of it once I came to my limited senses.
kpaca was a combination of gut and metagaming. Since gut means a lot in mafia and is as important as tells.
AE is playing his town game, that is not exactly dismissing him. It just means I think he is town.
CM I have been over to death. Don''t keep making me repeating myself.
Eco is still a scum candidate. And I had good reasonings for my actions.
As for Ace I think he might possibly be scum, so I vote for pressure.
Andel I think is scum and I think he has a scum mindset.
Blatant deflection: What happened to NA (I can't recall him even posting today off the top of my head, but he must have since he hasn't been replaced).
My problem with the claimed ability is it does nothing (well, it could interact to cancel WoD's drawback, or screw the town in a deadline situation, but that's very very narrow and neither really seems like it has a pro-town use). Seems like it must combine with a second ability, or have a secondary effect- quite possibly a different effect depending on whether the role is town or mafia, if the earlier speculation about roles changing with alignment is correct.
This is blatant gaming of the mod. Knock it off.
It has been proven that not everybody has an ability change, and for balance reasons nobody is going to have roles of the same power level. If you want to look at it from a power-level perspective, I am above a vanilla.
@Rafk: If there is a vanilla in this game, do you believe he has another ability, you know, besides being vanilla?
No, I think he is scum for saying, screw it let's lynch him, before DYH can get a replacement. Why is this so hard for you to understand?
Again, an anti-town action comes from town all the time. And every mindset argument you make sounds more like it's coming from a hypothetical town-mindset ande than a hypothetical scum-mindset ande.
No I voted NA because I think he is scum and still do, and I made a case against him that was ignored, to the point where I was alone on it waving my hands saying "Here is scum!" Go back and look, it's there in black and white for all to see. I was on there for quite some time, but it was going nowhere fast despite my best efforts, and I decided my time and energy would be better spent elsewhere than a wagon that was going nowhere fast.
If you're convinced of a player's scumminess, then keep arguing against him. Make a good case, convince the rest of the town. The above is just blatant bandwagoning.
I voted PM because I was frustrated and jumped on the first decent looking scum candidate I saw, which was PM. I admitted that it was a bad wagon, and got off of it once I came to my limited senses.
kpaca was a combination of gut and metagaming. Since gut means a lot in mafia and is as important as tells.
AE is playing his town game, that is not exactly dismissing him. It just means I think he is town.
CM I have been over to death. Don''t keep making me repeating myself.
The above justifications are just bad all around. They're either bad play or scum play.
Blatant deflection: What happened to NA (I can't recall him even posting today off the top of my head, but he must have since he hasn't been replaced).
...he hasn't been posting at all, actually, which is blatant lurking as far as I'm concerned, given he's been posting all over the site.
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Esper Simperer; Even the court homonculi need someone to look down on.
Jund Fangirl; Few things can describe the bliss of the fangirl's cries fading to silence (broken by occasional munching sounds).
Grixis Emo; 'Why should I go out there? They're all uncaring zombies! *sniff* No one understands me...' Bant Wageslave; Behind every successful knight is a corporate drudge doing his taxwork.
Naya Overenthusiast; Because there is such a thing as too much enthusiasm.
vote Guardman. L-2. The claim gives nothing, and his defenses are pretty bad, dC covered it though.
I still don't get how he is attacking me, my attacks yesterday were good
I also don't like Jobie's jump onto the wagon: Cyan didn't really add anything that wasn't already there, so for Jobie's suspicions to be swayed so easily and suddenly is troubling to me.
---
I had a back and forth with DYH; SB had initially processed my ability as a twilight one, but DYH is counting it as a night action and thus I feel it prudent to reveal that I targeted kpaca on night 1. Specifically, this means that if I was mafia, it would have redirected the kill to him.
Yes, this does mean I targeted AE & kpaca N1 (with different abilities). I would prefer not to elaborate further any more on my role.
I am bringing this up now so that it doesn't come up when I am at L-2, or in LyLo and it is assumed I was hiding that I killed kpaca and am swiftly mislynched.
I also don't like Jobie's jump onto the wagon: Cyan didn't really add anything that wasn't already there, so for Jobie's suspicions to be swayed so easily and suddenly is troubling to me.
With regards to Guardman, I've known for a while that it wouldn't take much for me to be swayed into voting for him. I started out the game thinking he was just a noob, now it's too many things piled on top of each other, which Cyan's case summed up in a way I actually was able use to reformulate my opinion.
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I disagree with RafK about Guardman's role. It's just a neutered Governer/Pardoner variant. Perfectly reasonable as a complete role, particularly coming from the mind of StormBlind.
Not sure what to make of Zionite at this point.
I can live with a Guardman lynch. No, this isn't a ringing endorsement.
I'm endorsing the WoD vigging with more vigor.
@Eco - When you get the chance, is the ability that SB was processing in twilight but DYH processed at night going to be processed at night from here forward or what? I don't need to know what it is, and if it was a one-shot I don't need to know that, either.
I'm not sure that I'd buy Guardman as scum yet. He's certainly playing badly, but I don't know that he's being his usual scum self (such as Crackhouse Mafia).
Post 54: Votes for NA. Not really a big deal at the time, though it will show a pattern later because every vote he makes is just a barn of someone else.
Post 63: Explains that he is voting NA not because NA voted WoD after WoD asked people not to vote him, but BECAUSE WoD asked people not to vote him. He spends the next few posts explaining this, but somehow missing that a scum is not likely to use the reason that NA did as justification. Feels like he is splitting hairs to justify his vote.
His point about NA trying to use the 'random vote' as an excuse is valid, however.
Post 133: Disagrees with people that NA hadn't had a chance to defend himself. This can't be considered a tell either way, because it's a matter of opinion.
Post 149: Continues to go at NA. This post is pretty reasonable, to be fair.
Post 192: Dismisses 'being a newb' as a reasoning for NA's actions. This one is harder. Even if you don't LIKE that 'being a newb' is a reason for making dumb mistakes, this doesn't change the fact that, in reality, it is. Feels like he is trying too hard again.
Post 267: Further discussion of his vote for NA. This post is also reasonable.
Post 298: FoSes Jobie, because Jobie is defending NA with the newb card. This post seems bad to me. Guardman takes a difference of opinion(whether or not newb defense is a valid defense) and tries to use it to implicate Jobie as NA's scumbuddy. He also comments on CM, but doesn't want to be distracted from the NA wagon.
Post 300: Says that he doesn't think that NA is acting like a newb town, but doesn't explain why.
Post 383: Ad homs me. I suppose that's not really a tell, but to me a townie is always going to defend himself/his points, even if it requires him to be vocal and assertive. Guardman hasn't had a problem defending himself to anyone else in this thread, so I think that ultimately this post/excuse rings hollow.
Post 415: See post 383.
Post 418: Promises a re-read on WoD. I'm pretty sure that said re-read never happened.
Post 436: Defends his initial stance against NA. Except that it feels like he is backpedalling from his previous position. Earlier, he made it clear that he was voting NA because he felt that NA voted WoD out of spite. Now he is trying to explain it as something else.
This is fairly confusing to me. Guardman's initial reasoning for getting on the NA wagon seems extremely scummy. However, his followup reasons(responses to NA) are all completely legitimate. Of course, these all came after the fact, and are mostly just a result of NA responding poorly to his own wagon. I think that Guardman just got lucky, in that he got onto a wagon for a scummy reason, then the wagonee reacted poorly to pressure, giving Guardman some additional legitimate reasons to add on.
Then, to further compound this, even immediately after saying 'I think NA is scum and nothing has changed my mind', he bails on the wagon, moving over to PM, citing Ced's attack on PM as his reason for doing so.
This feels about as disingenuous to me as can be. He has spent the entire day, to this point, defending his stance that NA is scum(including this post). I can't believe that a townie would just give this up, based on an accusation of active lurking(one that PM hadn't even had a chance to defend himself against yet).
It seems like he realized that the NA wagon wasn't going anywhere, and rather admit this, he tried to play it off. This is a typical newb scum mistake.
Post 481: In an earlier post, SO question's Guardman on whether or not he has completed a promised re-read. GM says no, but says that while re-reading, he did notice that Kpaca is scum, and lists a million metagame reasons as to why. He ditches the PM case in the process, even though previously proclaiming it to be 'better than the NA case'(the one that he spent all day arguing in favor of). It doesn't seem like a coincidence that he bailed on the case immediately after Ced also bailed on it. I'm not sure what to make of this, but again, it feels like the typical newb scum play of 'follow the lead of someone you know to be town'.
Post 496: Ecophagy mentions the same that I just did, re: the PM wagon and switching to Kpaca. GM tries to defend against this, but his defense seems lacking. He says that he 'was satisfied with PM's response'. Too bad he didn't mention this in the first place. Also, he OMGUSes me in this post, saying that he is 'taking my suspicion of him with a grain of salt, because I'm 4th on his list'. He has not made even the most remote mention of suspicion towards me before this point.
Post 504: Says that Kpaca, NA, and myself must all be scumbuddies, based on reasons that are completely gaming the Mod. To be fair, this post is more of just a newb mistake than a newb scum mistake.
Post 576: Defends his case against PM...even though he has since given up on it and says that he was satisfied with PM's responses. I don't see why he would still be questioning those responses if he was satisfied with them.
Post 705: Starts of Day 2 with a complete OMGUS of Ecophagy, even though he has never expressed even a modicum of suspicion towards Ecophagy previously.
Post 773: Says that he never commented on the CM wagon because he 'didn't know what to think of CM'. I don't read this as sincere, it seems to me like he just figured he didn't need to get involved in the wagon, and as such, didn't comment on it. Also says that people have to 'just accept' that arguing with him is frustrating. This seems like a far cry from yesterday, where he repeatedly stated that he was not responding to MY comments because he didn't want to get into the same type of argument with me.
Post 804: Says that he doesn't like the case against AE, uses this as a reason to vote Eco(because Eco defended AE).
Post 809: Says that he thinks Eco is just vouching for AE because he wants to get brownie points. This is a possibility, though not one that I agree with.
Post 877: Gives up on the Eco wagon, choosing instead to barn PM re: Ace. This is pretty fascinating, considering that the last thing GM ever said to PM was 'I think you're scum'(paraphrase).
Post 883: Attacks Ged for defending Ace.
Post 908: Quickly bails on the Ace wagon, which is obviously going nowhere, jumping on a scummy post by Andelijah.
Post 942: Says that his barn post of myself/TMT wasn't a barn, because it just takes him longer to post(fair point, I guess he can't be bothered to preview) and because he voted when we didn't. This last bit is a tell against GM, not a point for him.
Ultimately, I think that GM has shown some pro-town behavior(some of his reasons for voting NA were valid, but again, this came after he was already on the wagon), but for the most part, he has blindly followed people from one wagon to the next, trying to make absolutely anything stick, declaring the wagon really strong, then just as quickly abandoned it. Unvote, Vote Guardman
@kpaca: since you are replacing Ace I would like to hear your responses and reasoning to his past couple of posts:
@Guardman- the ability itself seems rather useless, although I'm curious as to the specifics of it. Do you have to post the activation of your ability in the thread or can you PM the mod directly?
Though here is my analysis of each:
Post 1: He is going through chemo, and thinks you're scum. I agree.
Post 2: He makes a nonsensical post. How the hell do you want me to reason that out for you. Go back, and read Tales of the Fantastic. Read Ace's posts. Then you'll probably be better able to understand it.
Post 3: Looks like a response to Pale Mage's attack. I'm not sure why you need me to explain that to you. It appears to be written pretty clearly.
On a side note, why didn't you respond to Cyan?
That having been said, I'm ready to lynch Guardman now. A claim was pretty unlikely to do anything for him, and he obviously knew I had posted, and chose to completely ignore it.
I also don't see what offering to prove your ability means in this game.
EBWODP:
Blah. Sarnath'd by Kpaca. W/e.
Doesn't say directly, but I am guessing it is a PM. And yeah it is a rather useless ability. But I am testing it out, to see.
Fair enough on the responses. I wanted to get your take on them. I don't expect you to know what was going on in Ace's head, but I do feel it is important to get a replacement's views on the last couple of posts (especially when the person is on the chopping block).
Since I was at L-1 I decided to claim before someone decided to go and lynch me before I claimed. I then went back and started to do a post by post response to Cyan, got frustrated over the tediousness of it and scrapped it. So I am going to do a general response to Cyan below.
True, but if I didn't claim my ability, people would be claiming that I was hiding it from them.
Don't worry about the unvote, since I reset my votes.
I went after NA because he was the first one to show a clear scum tell, which he just compounded after the fact, which is why his case kept building. But his wagon never went anywhere and I felt my time would be better spent elsewhere then sitting on a dead wagon waving my arms and shouting "Look here's scum!" to deaf ears.
The PM wagon looking back on it was a bad wagon. I thought I saw something, but I think I was just frustrated that my NA wagon really went nowhere, despite the fact I think and you admit I had legitimate reasons to think he is scum. I think I was just looking for a new person to call scum and jumped on PM blindly.
kpaca's wagon I really thought I had something. Honestly it was more of a gut feeling, but it was a strong gut feeling which I couldn't pull away from. And my gut was telling me that there was something to this whole mafia clause thing. Plus with me finding kpaca playing differently then before just added to my conviction. I am honestly still surprised that kpaca wasn't scum.
Eco was a series of poor attacks and little day 1 activity that made me feel like he was trying to stay below the radar and attack me opportunistically. As for the AE confirmation, I've confirmed someone before as scum to get brownie points, and with the set-up it doesn't really make sense to lie about one's role. So yeah I don't think it really says anything about Eco.
Cantripmancer is just what I said. I didn't know what to think, so I kept my mouth shut.
AE I still think is town, because he is playing his standard town game.
Ace/kpaca was a series of poor posts, where I thought he was scum and that more pressure should be put on him to spark further discussion on to his previous behavior and poor defences (i.e. Barbie).
Andel was for driving home the whole let's lynch Ace before DYH can find a replacement. You can see my last couple posts for a further explanation.
Vote: Guardman.
Die scum die.
Actually nobody chose anything after all those posts, and I was curious to see how my ability worked so I decided to reset my own votes. Plus I want to give people the chance to reevaluate me and my previous posts before a zealous poster or scum decides to lynch me.
Vote Guardman
It really doesn't matter.
Kpaca (3) - Ced395, Emo Pinata, Andelijah
Guardman (2) - Kpaca, Cyan
WoD (2) - [Jobie], (Andelijah)
Andelijah (1) - Guardman
Archmage Eternal (1) - Jobie
Some One (1) - Archmage Eternal
With 21 alive, it is 10 to lynch.
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
Probably not. But I still don't see a good town reason for doing it.
Wait what pattern are you talking about?
A good reason, to which faction's benefit we cannot know (if there even is one), but at least for him is the fact that he is alive right now and wouldn't be if he didn't do what he did.
Unvote, Vote Guardman.
You're next ftr.
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I would totally like your thoughts on the game thus far, opinions on people, etcetera before we move to night.
I think AE is just his usual newb self.
I think you are town, as is Ced, Cyan, and andelijah.
Ged, Dagger, and TMT I am torn on.
Everyone else I'm still formulating.
So yeah. Yeah I am.
vote Guardman
No reason not to put my vote back. His post at kpaca to "explain these posts by Ace" was enough to seal the deal. Anyone should know that a replacement isn't going to be able to accurately explain his predecessor made certain posts. Feels like a trap to get people looking back to Ace/kpaca instead of him; try to get kpaca to defend the those posts, then call him scummy for it.
Record: 3-2
Simpsons Mafia (Newbie) - Vanilla Mafia - Win
The Fiasco Corporation - Town Reporter - Loss
Doomsday Mafia - Mafia Roleblocker - Win
Battle Royale Mafia - Serial Daykiller - Loss
Danger City Mafia - Vanilla Town - Win
Actually I just wanted his reasoning for those posts. Which is perfectly reasonable when you see a replacement. Basically I wanted kpaca to explain what he saw of those posts. I fail to see how that is scummy.
@DYH:
Also, Roja is ??? in your main "front page" when his PM (Cavalry Scout) is in the thread? Can you clarify?
I'm about halfway done reading. I'll let you know what I think shortly.
I'm glad Cyan is here to grate my nerves.
They're not his posts. Asking him for reasoning on posts that aren't his accomplishes nothing, unless you're looking to start criticizing him over defending Ace's posts.
Record: 3-2
Simpsons Mafia (Newbie) - Vanilla Mafia - Win
The Fiasco Corporation - Town Reporter - Loss
Doomsday Mafia - Mafia Roleblocker - Win
Battle Royale Mafia - Serial Daykiller - Loss
Danger City Mafia - Vanilla Town - Win
Wouldn't logic dictate that anyone would be able to explain Ace's logic as well as Kpaca. In other words, couldn't you reason the posts just as well as Kpaca? That being said, no, it's not perfectly reasonable.
Sorry about that. I was on the edge of my seat reading up on this game 3 days ago and DYH never logged...until the day I had things to do. I had just tonight remembered I offered to replace.
Before I forget, @Ged, Cyan: Did you get mod confirmation that WoD would die with one more target? This matters.
Also, something i've been screaming at my computer for most of the week:
Roles do not indicate alignment!
So docs can be scum. Hell anyone can be scum, or town, or whatever. Meaning, behavior is the only thing we have to go on here, and maybe the random aid from a townie role.
Keeping all that in mind, with a fresh read, my top scums:
1. Cyan - I'm familiar with Cyan, his playstyle as scum and town. Now I've been out of the game(hardcore at least) since berserk mafia(if anyone remembers, I got in a flame war there), but my whole read Cyan's choices just seemed off. Day 1's lynch was all Cyan would post about, and when he came up town he didn't even flinch, just moved on to dog someone else. I generally haven't agreed with his lynch choices. Not only this, but he's been hopping around a lot Day 2(today). Thats also not like him at all. I was almost thinking maybe he has a posting restiction(these exist), but then he came out with an UNWARRANTED full claim. I say unwarranted because his reasoning for claiming was to counterclaim. But as we all know, that doesn't help in this setup! So instead of being a normal dogged Cyan(whom no one would question, its his style), he instead outed not just himself but another doc. I would not be surprised to see Ged get NKed at all.
(side note: I believe Ged to be likely town due to his Day 1 play, and his discretion involving his role.)
While his most recent choice, Guardman, is a bit reasonable, his past choices have not been so. I may end up doing a PBPA, but with Cyan its interactions, not content, for the most part.
2. archmage eternal - Post 723
guardman, wod, night archer,
One sec i wasn't done...
3. Night Archer - Pretty much quiet now, Night Archer dominated the early game with his strange PM shinanigans. It has since been all but forgotten. I still think there may be something there, as well as his early posts defending himself. I could go for his lynch.
4. Guardman - 133, 436, and 481 are examples of Guardman's play, which has generally been shameless, blatant barning and bad logic. I could see him being town, but that has diminished every post he's barned someone after "totally 100% agreeing" with the last guy. I do agree with Cyan on this choice, but I'd rather get Cyan lynched first than Guardman, just to see if my 'Dar is still working.
5. Wrath of Dog - In post 775, its not only a stretch but kinda omgus as well, summing up my thoughts so far on WoD. I was almost satisfied with the thought of getting him vigged(in a sense) when in 840 he forgets the setup. While it is WIFOM to think that scum have a better sense of their strengths in this game than we may believe(getting to have a role to hide behind is excellent for the mafia), I do think WoD would have remembered what setup we're dealing with in the case of him being scum. Not a strong reasoning, but it did knock him down the list below Guardman and makes me want to continue my watch on him.
6. A Lurker? - We have a lot of semi/non-posters right now. I can almost guarantee at least 2 scum is in this category. I'm hoping the prods will stir up enough of them to get a better feel on the group, but I'm really nervous about the other half of the players who barely post. Ecophagy, Emo, Shadow Knight, etc.
That's my general thoughts right now. And without further ado...
VOTE CYAN.
So yeah, you got me. I've been suspicious of all of..uhhh..Guardman today.
It's interesting that you're coming at me here. You're replacing for Wuffles, right? Wuffles had alot to say yesterday, the majority of which was just defending WoD mindlessly. Then today, when it was determined that WoD is dead tonight(and he is, I have mod confirmation that one more target will finish him..but don't worry, I'm sure Ged and I will both target him, just to be safe), Wuffles absolutely vanished. From THIS game, anyway. He's posted plenty on other parts of the forum, including other mafia games.
Of course, the reason for this is obvious. Wuffles knows that WoD is scum, and knows that when WoD is dead and reveals scum, I'm coming after him(you) next. Apparently you also realize this, hence your posts here.
And yes, you're right that a Doc can be scum in this game. Anyone can. But a scum Doc is simply not going to have the 'drawback' of killing someone he protects 3 times. This all but guarantees the scum an extra kill in the game, and probably 2(especially with Ged's role being in the game). That part of your statement is just desperate flailing.
Also, I love how your scum lists consists of A)2 people that are all but guaranteed to be dead, and I would be astounded to see either flip town, 2 people that the wagons on them have long since been abandoned, and me.
That and you have Wrath of Dog and Cyan on the same scum list. Considering one is killing the other, I'm not sure how you rationalize that.
I will be away without internet until late Friday/early Saturday visiting family.
Salvation Mafia Clan
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The whole thing is just a ridiculous pre-emptive strike for when WoD flips scum tonight.
Salvation Mafia Clan
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last updated 03/23/11
Cyan is so town it hurts.
No that is my entire ability, a once a day one person vote reset. Not that great of an ability really, but they can't all be winners like Cyan's ability.
...anti-town behaviour comes from town mindsets all the time. A scum wouldn't be thinking '**** it, he'd be lynched anyway, let's kill him', a scum would be thinking 'quick, let's push this mislynch through, heh heh heh'.
I think you subconsciously know andelijah is town, because you're scum, and possibly Ace-now-kpaca is scum too. That's why you were so eager to skip wagons, and why your hypothetical-andelijah appears to be coming more from a town viewpoint than a scum one.
Way to distract here.
So.... let me summarize the above.
'I voted NightArcher because everyone was going after him for how scummy he was, but when his wagon died, I didn't make a case or anything, just went after someone else. I voted PM because I was looking for someone to jump on. I voted kpaca-the-1st for gut. I voted Eco out of OMGUS. I didn't say anything about CM because I had no opinion. I dismiss AE as town. I voted Ace-now-kpaca for pressure. And now I'm voting andelijah.'
...if I wasn't worried about accidentally ending the day, I would so be voting you right now.
(Having a double vote is more annoying than it seems, apparently.)
@ced395
Wuffles. I might be remembering wrong as to your main thrust against Wuffles-now-Zionite, but I do recall you used his inactivity as one point against him.
Mod-gaming = no good.
....as much as I agree with many of the points you bring up about Zionite's 'case', I'm deeply interested in why you're not feeling the Guardman case, actually.
@Jobie
....FoS: Jobie
Jund Fangirl; Few things can describe the bliss of the fangirl's cries fading to silence (broken by occasional munching sounds).
Grixis Emo; 'Why should I go out there? They're all uncaring zombies! *sniff* No one understands me...'
Bant Wageslave; Behind every successful knight is a corporate drudge doing his taxwork.
Naya Overenthusiast; Because there is such a thing as too much enthusiasm.
What about your day 1 behavior?
Also, "But a scum Doc is simply not going to have the 'drawback' of killing someone he protects 3 times." is gaming the mod, er, the mods.
I don't see what you're getting at about wuffles defending WoD. My PM doesn't give me any reason to believe WoD is town or worth protecting. All I can think of is that wuffles and WoD are related and therefore have a predisposition to see each other go on to the end of mafia games.
Damn I missed you.:p
It wasn't really a case, just my reasoning. If you think I'm "going to lengths" when I just state my general thoughts, you're gonna hate it when I actually make a case. I generally don't to a case straight out of the replacement starting gate unless I disagree with the current wagon. And I think you generally misinterpreted it anyway. I analyzed Cyan with previous play experience in mind, and something is definitely up with him.
Besides, have you had an original thought this game?
And I'm not sure why you're voting for a supposedly bad case. If you voted everyone with a bad case well...you'd be ced. Nvm.
Well we've seen parallel abilities, so I guess this could happen too. Honestly I don't know why anyone even claims unless it clears someone. It doesn't give us anything to go on and it gives mafia targets *cough cough* watchers and trackers *cough*
whoa.
you blew my mind. I believe you are right good sir.
Wrath of Dog is low on my list. I think(thought) Cyan is(was) scummier. The reason being already stated above. He made that slip and it makes me think he's town.
Though now that I think about it...Cyan kinda made the same slip. So I'd have to hold them both to the same standard.
...
Maybe I should sleep on this. I think I just wanted to fight with Cyan.
Unvote pending further thought.
Aren't those two things exactly the same except for the evil laugh?
No, I think he is scum for saying, screw it let's lynch him, before DYH can get a replacement. Why is this so hard for you to understand?
No I voted NA because I think he is scum and still do, and I made a case against him that was ignored, to the point where I was alone on it waving my hands saying "Here is scum!" Go back and look, it's there in black and white for all to see. I was on there for quite some time, but it was going nowhere fast despite my best efforts, and I decided my time and energy would be better spent elsewhere than a wagon that was going nowhere fast.
I voted PM because I was frustrated and jumped on the first decent looking scum candidate I saw, which was PM. I admitted that it was a bad wagon, and got off of it once I came to my limited senses.
kpaca was a combination of gut and metagaming. Since gut means a lot in mafia and is as important as tells.
AE is playing his town game, that is not exactly dismissing him. It just means I think he is town.
CM I have been over to death. Don''t keep making me repeating myself.
Eco is still a scum candidate. And I had good reasonings for my actions.
As for Ace I think he might possibly be scum, so I vote for pressure.
Andel I think is scum and I think he has a scum mindset.
Blatant deflection: What happened to NA (I can't recall him even posting today off the top of my head, but he must have since he hasn't been replaced).
This is blatant gaming of the mod. Knock it off.
It has been proven that not everybody has an ability change, and for balance reasons nobody is going to have roles of the same power level. If you want to look at it from a power-level perspective, I am above a vanilla.
@Rafk: If there is a vanilla in this game, do you believe he has another ability, you know, besides being vanilla?
...no. No they aren't. If you want to be arguing mindset, there's a very clear difference between 'triumphant/jubilant' and 'frustrated'.
Again, an anti-town action comes from town all the time. And every mindset argument you make sounds more like it's coming from a hypothetical town-mindset ande than a hypothetical scum-mindset ande.
If you're convinced of a player's scumminess, then keep arguing against him. Make a good case, convince the rest of the town. The above is just blatant bandwagoning.
The above justifications are just bad all around. They're either bad play or scum play.
Then do you seriously think scum-ande would be rushing to lynch scum-Ace-now-kpaca?
...he hasn't been posting at all, actually, which is blatant lurking as far as I'm concerned, given he's been posting all over the site.
Jund Fangirl; Few things can describe the bliss of the fangirl's cries fading to silence (broken by occasional munching sounds).
Grixis Emo; 'Why should I go out there? They're all uncaring zombies! *sniff* No one understands me...'
Bant Wageslave; Behind every successful knight is a corporate drudge doing his taxwork.
Naya Overenthusiast; Because there is such a thing as too much enthusiasm.
I still don't get how he is attacking me, my attacks yesterday were good
I also don't like Jobie's jump onto the wagon: Cyan didn't really add anything that wasn't already there, so for Jobie's suspicions to be swayed so easily and suddenly is troubling to me.
---
I had a back and forth with DYH; SB had initially processed my ability as a twilight one, but DYH is counting it as a night action and thus I feel it prudent to reveal that I targeted kpaca on night 1. Specifically, this means that if I was mafia, it would have redirected the kill to him.
Yes, this does mean I targeted AE & kpaca N1 (with different abilities). I would prefer not to elaborate further any more on my role.
I am bringing this up now so that it doesn't come up when I am at L-2, or in LyLo and it is assumed I was hiding that I killed kpaca and am swiftly mislynched.
static.
With regards to Guardman, I've known for a while that it wouldn't take much for me to be swayed into voting for him. I started out the game thinking he was just a noob, now it's too many things piled on top of each other, which Cyan's case summed up in a way I actually was able use to reformulate my opinion.
Random Mafia 2 Town MVP
'08 MTGS Fantasy Football Overall Champion
Best Non-SK Neutral Performance (Individual)
Guardman (8) - Cyan, Kpaca, WoD, Jobie, RafK, TMT, Ged, Eco
Kpaca (2) - Emo Pinata, Andelijah
WoD (2) - [Jobie], (Andelijah)
Andelijah (1) - Guardman
Some One (1) - Archmage Eternal
Zionite (1) - Ced395
With 21 alive, it is 10 to lynch.
* * *
@MMoD: Sorry; when Roja died originally, I did not have his full PM. I will update the list.
MMoD will be away for the next four days starting tonight.
Ecophagy will be on holidays for the next 2 weeks with sporadic internet service.
Thanks,
DYH
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
Not sure what to make of Zionite at this point.
I can live with a Guardman lynch. No, this isn't a ringing endorsement.
I'm endorsing the WoD vigging with more vigor.
@Eco - When you get the chance, is the ability that SB was processing in twilight but DYH processed at night going to be processed at night from here forward or what? I don't need to know what it is, and if it was a one-shot I don't need to know that, either.