Honestly, I don't think an extension would do anything. The way that this day has worked out, we're going to end up lynching either RafK or MMQ. We don't need an extra week to decide which one.
I"m having a hard time settling on one of them, though. I'm tempted to switch my vote back and forth like..every post.
Raf's claim does nothing to make me want to unvote him, nor do his long review posts.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
But you voted simply on the development that others were voting, and the 'especially' bit is you trying to justify yourself in doing so.
Do you have notes on these other rereads?
I had a text doc on my other computer but I'm not totally sure I still have it. I basically decided I didn't think lrd was scum and MMoD I really can't tell.
Quote from Toastboy »
How so?
I think you could see the wagon had a good chance of stopping, so you jumped off ASAP.
The wagon hasn't stopped now,because of the deadline more than anything, but would you have guessed that it would carry on?
I wasn't thinking about whether it was stopping or not. I simply agreed that RafK's recent posts had seemed more town to me and unvoted.
Quote from lrd »
Please do correct me if I'm wrong, but is this not the first time you expressed any suspicion against me, right after the wagon on me started?
I don't recall anything before, no. I didn't mention it until then for the same reason as RafK.
Quote from lrd »
Seeming to jump off the wagon, one post after eco jumped on, although the first sentance does seem a little dodgy to me, as he is not totally rejecting it.
I was figuring you as town but didn't find anything conclusive towards that fact.
Anyways I'm pretty sure MMQ is town, don't really know about RafK though.
I don't see your point against lrd. Maybe I'm just missing something?
I don't even know that it's a point against him; it's just odd that when I said DYH seemed to have been killed by the same thing that did the claw attack on night 1, he asked why DYH wasn't killed by the mafia (as if he has inside information that the claw attack isn't mafia). But because it seems most likely that DYH was killed by the same thing but also that it is the mafia, I have no idea what was up with that.
Quote from Cyan »
When I saw 3 kills that consisted of DYH, RO, and Dagger dying, and DYH flipped neutral, I assumed that he had a kill, and used it on Dagger. I certainly can't see him wasting a kill on RO. Nor could I see the mafia using a kill on RO. DYH seemed like the natural choice there.
We know now that Yodavader killed RO (who should have been confirmed town based on earlier days; anyway, we've been through that), and obviously DYH wouldn't have killed himself so by process of elimination the mafia killed him and DYH killed Dagger, yes.
Honestly, I could go with lynching either RafK or MMQ today. I would really love to kill both. Seeing as how that is not possible, if we're stuck picking one, I feel that the behavioral evidence supports lynching MMQ.
Yes, it does.
No-one has made any serious point against me other than ecophagy's late and terrible flavour argument. Not one. People have said "I am scummier" (why? what posts? No-one says!) or that my claim is scummier (why?) It irritates me a great deal that I bothered to come back and contribute to the game, and do the analysis no-one else was bothering to do, and a bunch of people are standing around not offering anything but a vote.
I'm particularly annoyed at Axelrod, who knows better, and who made a point of prodding me into action in the first place, and who hinted at some secret reason for it, only to apparently ignore the results.
Quote from Cyan »
It stands as of right now. WoD says he'll extend it, but I really don't see the point.
I agree with you there. I have said all I can say. MMQ has had and still has time to talk, if he wants to talk instead of hiding while his work is done for him. Other people have had and still have time to offer actual opinions if they have them. Lynch someone at the deadline, not a no lynch. If it's me, at least this is all out of your system and you can lynch MMQ tomorrow and then move on to the people protecting him today (eco and Toastboy the two first cabs of the rank, that order, eco's flavour argument against me I find almost impossible to believe was sincere and he's spent just about the whole game previously trying to stay out of trouble and not get involved; even more so because both are avoiding actually voting me). If it's MMQ, then we get a scum immediately and obviously I prefer that
FWIW, I agree with RafK that Eco should be at the top of most people's scumlist. His behavior today was just..as unhelpful as can be. All he seemed to do was oppose wagons. He voted here and there, but it never seemed particularly meaningful.
RafK is 3 from lynch. It's time to move forward. I think MMQ has been fairly scummy, and even if his claim is truthful, it doesn't particularly save him..but more on that later. Of the two, I feel that more 'genuine town' comes from MMQ's posts than RafKs...by a hair(like 22 v. AK suited pre-flop).
FWIW, I agree with RafK that Eco should be at the top of most people's scumlist. His behavior today was just..as unhelpful as can be. All he seemed to do was oppose wagons. He voted here and there, but it never seemed particularly meaningful.
*shrug* I just don't consider MMQ or RafK to be lynch-worthy. With the deadline tomorrow, I guess I'd put my vote on Raf to get something out of the day, but I don't feel confident in Raf's scumhood.
I'm particularly annoyed at Axelrod, who knows better, and who made a point of prodding me into action in the first place, and who hinted at some secret reason for it, only to apparently ignore the results.
You can be annoyed all you want, but I am fairly confident that you are scum now, so I got what I wanted out of it.
For everyone else, let me suggest that it seems unlikely to me that the town would have a Doc role (jerubbal), a 1/2 "stealth" role (Yodavader), Dagger's role (which I do not entirely know what it did, but I do know that it had to do with "shielding" technology), plus someone else who is (apparently) totally NK immune - even with unrevealed drawback.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
MMQ last post was horrible. I love how he manages to attack Rafk throughout (especially in the first paragraph, o WOW lol - nice calling him out when you haven't done anything yourself), still doesn't do any sort of scum hunting, pats Cyan's ass, use WIFOM, claim newb misunderstanding (it's called PM the mod btw) and ends it with "but lol I don't think you're scum". The entire post was antagonizing and pretentious drivel (okay he defended a couple points I'll give him that).
Rafk's claim is bad, and normally I wouldn't be unhappy to see him swing, but MMQ takes the cake for me. Don't expect me to move my vote unless it's needed to end the day without a no-lynch.
I don't really follow this. Why would counter-daykilling be a legitimate response? The positioning of the daykill(s) was overwhelmingly likely to be fake, and I don't see how not going "NO U" and genuinely shooting them is more indicative of a townie than not doing so...
DV's last few posts look really bad. He used Cyan's favourite tell "to be honest" twice, and it seems jarring and -as ced pointed out- contradictory. Someone to look into tomorrow.
Vote Yodavader. I think the points against him hold, and his late leap onto the "town" wagon was really scummy.
I'm not sure aboput DV. His hammer vote was awful and contradictory, but I don't know out of character that sort of play is. I shall have to have a read of some other games.
Defending DV, but this is post is as waffly as it gets, beacause it includes that he thinks DV's hammer vote is awful.
Note the difference between "Sounds pretty standard for DV." in the first quote to "I don't know out of character that sort of play is." in the above quote.
Ced nailed the contradiction, DV is clearly pulling that all out of his arse.
Key: Can you dayill DV? plzkthx. Then we can get on with lynching Yodavader.
Attacking DV, votes DV soon after
So he goes from Defending DV to attacking DV to defending DV to attacking DV
extremely waffly.
If you want more evidence, look at how much he cites ced as why DV is contradictory (see underlined, I count three posts, two with direct attribution to ced). Blatant bandwagoning and associating with ced. Highly suspicious.
However Vote Stands. I have no intention of removing my vote from RafK until tomorrow. RafK is the most suspicious person with a vote on him, and with the deadline looming I don't think that changing my vote would benefit the town.
I noticed Ecophagy has very suspicious waffling on DV, especially since DV's scum.
Hos: Ecophagy He should be lynched tomorrow.
Defending DV
Attacking DV
Defending DV, but this is post is as waffly as it gets, beacause it includes that he thinks DV's hammer vote is awful.
Note the difference between "Sounds pretty standard for DV." in the first quote to "I don't know out of character that sort of play is." in the above quote.
Attacking DV, votes DV soon after
So he goes from Defending DV to attacking DV to defending DV to attacking DV
extremely waffly.
If you want more evidence, look at how much he cites ced as why DV is contradictory (see underlined, I count three posts, two with direct attribution to ced). Blatant bandwagoning and associating with ced. Highly suspicious.
However Vote Stands. I have no intention of removing my vote from RafK until tomorrow. RafK is the most suspicious person with a vote on him, and with the deadline looming I don't think that changing my vote would benefit the town.
I've been playing the whole game under the assumption that Eco was town but I'll try to reread his posts soon anyways.
@Toastboy- Note how Biohazard only posts this after people have started expressing suspicion on Eco. Does this mean he is scum as well?
I really don't know about RafK and I wouldn't know if having all those roles is unusual or not.
On a side point Yodavader seems to have decided that he is safe and as such dropped his post count significantly. With his posts after his claim being on 11-18-2009, next post 11-23-2009, and finally 11-30-2009.
Your first quote is form early day one. Further, I defy you to go find a DV game where he doesn't talk drivel.
The Second is the end of day one (IIRC) - I agree with ced that DV is scummy.
The Third: I still agree DV is scummy, but I think Yoda is more scummy
The Forth: Ced points out further contradiction that proves DV is lying. I vote him shortly afterward.
So my thought and action process was:
DV is being DV > DV is being scummy > DV is still scummy > DV is highly likely scum.
I really don't see what is wrong here.
Syrenz: good point about Yoda. Simply being probable town is no excuse to not post (hell, it should be a reason to post more)
You can be annoyed all you want, but I am fairly confident that you are scum now, so I got what I wanted out of it.
For everyone else, let me suggest that it seems unlikely to me that the town would have a Doc role (jerubbal), a 1/2 "stealth" role (Yodavader), Dagger's role (which I do not entirely know what it did, but I do know that it had to do with "shielding" technology), plus someone else who is (apparently) totally NK immune - even with unrevealed drawback.
Hey, an actual reason given why someone thinks I'm scum. Stop the presses.
Of course, it's gaming the setup and doesn't even try to analyse behaviour, but hey, it's a start. Not a GOOD start, but a start.
Not a bad point about the amount of defensive roles; for me (since I know, after all, that I'm telling the truth) it tends towards reinforcing both of our earlier comments that jerub's doc claim does not completely clear him. It's also possible that our mod did this to mitigate multiple killing roles, as I did in the Persona design, for example. Or perhaps the design just has too many defensive roles. It happens.
Quote from MMQ »
Hi guys, it's about time i posted.
Yes, funny how as soon as I call you out for hiding while other people do your work for you, there you are.
Okay, Raf, you're doing some analysis. That's nice, it makes you appear to be useful. When you take another look at the post, though, it's just wishy-washy, back-and-forth drivel, scantily dressed up as a PBPA, while actually reading like a stream of consciousness.
Aren't you the cat that swallowed the canary? The tone of this post gives you away; suddenly you have confidence. You think you've won something, and that you can sass me with impunity.
You do realise that getting me mislynched sees you dead tomorrow anyway? You are trapped; the worst case for me is a one-for-one with you dying tomorrow. I really don't mind this. It annoys me that I am being lynched first because there is seriously no case at all on me, but in game terms it is not a bad deal and I will take it any day of the week.
Quote from MMQ »
will say again: i voted for him, i said that i was voting despite nagging doubts, and he turned up scum. Indulge me for a moment: if i was scum, I would know fine well that Zebi was guilty, and therefore i would know that any attempt at a defence in the face of this evidence would be signing my own death warrant.
Scum defend scum all the time, even when they shouldn't, even the most experienced. This is a very WIFOM point from you; not your only one, either.
Quote from MMQ »
Freudian slip, perhaps?
I was pretty clearly making a joke about mafia players on the site on the whole.
Quote from MMQ »
Read your own post again. You are drawing conclusions from literally nothing. Thin air. There is nothing against me here, but you make it sound like i've spent the day stabbing people in the eyes. Again, it's as if you're just trying to appear useful while actually you're just wailing on me
You could have just said "I know you are but what am I". It would have been shorter and meant the same thing.
There is a lot more than thin air against you. People can draw their own conclusions.
Quote from MMQ »
No, i'm saying that my role PM doesn't specify any abilities. more precisely "i don't currently have any abilities". The only reason i thought i might have something is because i am called a "Town Smuggler" instead of "vanilla town". Perhaps that's a newb misunderstanding, or perhaps i'm not misunderstanding anything and am just telling the truth
That question wasn't to you, it was asked directly to your friend who played the newb card on your behalf. I agree absolutely that what you've said doesn't seem to leave room for a "newb misunderstanding" of what your role is, your claim is very clear- that was actually my point.
Quote from MMQ »
Please clarify. Isn't "behavioural evidence" about ignoring what people actually say, and looking at their patterns voting and FoSing? In any case, can either of you please try and explain this evidence to me. Perhaps it will help me to improve my game and avoid leading you to a mislynch on
"Behavioural evidence" absolutely includes what people actually say, and also their voting patterns. The alternative is evidence based on claims and night ability results.
I probably could have just quoted MMOD's post and said "I agree", and added that last bit to explain behavioural evidence, now that I think about it.
Sorry for not posting as much as I should have. Things have gotten surprisingly hectic at work lately. I can't surf the net at work at the normal rate I used to. The drop in posting is not because of me feeling safe after my claim.
I do agree that the RafK's long posts are more to clear people than to find scum, but I don't find it scummy in itself. I believe that he is town.
I still think Syrenz is scum. He is too easily swayed and it feels like he is not thinking for himself but using the swing of the wagon to vote or unvote. When a wagon gets going, he jumps on without much thought for himself. Then when the wagon starts to fizzle, again, he jumps off saying "Oh, good point." So, my vote on Syrenz stays.
As far as MMQ goes, I am leaning on the scummy side, but not enough to change my vote.
And Cyan has popped on my scumdar. Mostly for his 5000 vote/unvotes today. He is acting like a sheep. He is falling into the Syrenz category but again, it's just a blip on the radar.
Sorry for not posting as much as I should have. Things have gotten surprisingly hectic at work lately. I can't surf the net at work at the normal rate I used to. The drop in posting is not because of me feeling safe after my claim.
I do agree that the RafK's long posts are more to clear people than to find scum, but I don't find it scummy in itself. I believe that he is town.
I still think Syrenz is scum. He is too easily swayed and it feels like he is not thinking for himself but using the swing of the wagon to vote or unvote. When a wagon gets going, he jumps on without much thought for himself. Then when the wagon starts to fizzle, again, he jumps off saying "Oh, good point." So, my vote on Syrenz stays.
As far as MMQ goes, I am leaning on the scummy side, but not enough to change my vote.
And Cyan has popped on my scumdar. Mostly for his 5000 vote/unvotes today. He is acting like a sheep. He is falling into the Syrenz category but again, it's just a blip on the radar.
The trouble with a vote on Syrenz in this deadline situation is that he won't get lynched before deadline, so that's effectively a no lynch vote. I'd prefer you vote for me before you vote for him at the moment (yes, obviously I would prefer a vote for MMQ above that, but seriously, even lynching me > a no lynch, or else we'll be back arguing this same thing tomorrow).
Note that i don't think you are scum, although neutral is perfectly plausible.
Exactly how are you drawing this distinction?
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
I really hate no lynches. A mislynch will give us information on the wagon. A scum lynch will give us info on who voted/when they voted/ why they voted, and who didn't vote.
A no lynch doesn't give us any information and you start the next day at the same spot you are on today. Of course, an informative NK can help us move along but a lynch gives information too.
Your first quote is form early day one. Further, I defy you to go find a DV game where he doesn't talk drivel.
The Second is the end of day one (IIRC) - I agree with ced that DV is scummy.
The Third: I still agree DV is scummy, but I think Yoda is more scummy
The Forth: Ced points out further contradiction that proves DV is lying. I vote him shortly afterward.
So my thought and action process was:
DV is being DV > DV is being scummy > DV is still scummy > DV is highly likely scum.
I really don't see what is wrong here.
How is "I'm not sure about DV" = "DV is still scummy"?
I'm still not 100% convinced by this lynch, but with an absence of other feasible targets, and Raf looking at least fairly scummy, I guess we don't have a choice.
Also, Axel's point about protective roles is a good observation, and my own role supports it.
After many weeks of deliberation, with accusations flying around several places, you come to the conclusion that it is in fact RafaelK who should bite the bullet today.
MMoD and Toastboy are the ones who pull the trigger. The first salvo becomes a bowl of petunias. The second salvo hits a wall of energy.
The third salvo destroys the ship.
"Not... again.", the bowl of petunias thinks.
RafaelK - Heart of Gold has been lynched.
It is now NIGHT 4. Night actions due 48 HOURS from the lynch scene.
I still think Syrenz is scum. He is too easily swayed and it feels like he is not thinking for himself but using the swing of the wagon to vote or unvote. When a wagon gets going, he jumps on without much thought for himself. Then when the wagon starts to fizzle, again, he jumps off saying "Oh, good point." So, my vote on Syrenz stays.
I'm not a fan of MMQ right now for several reasons, but expecially because of the "I don't think you're scum, but you might be neutral," remark concerning Raf. That is the kind of thing a Mafia who knew Raf. was not one of them would say.
I've also been unimpressed with Eco's posting lately.
I'm still not 100% convinced by this lynch, but with an absence of other feasible targets, and Raf looking at least fairly scummy, I guess we don't have a choice.
Also, Axel's point about protective roles is a good observation, and my own role supports it.
Your role supports it. Well "it" was completely wrong, so what does that say about your role?
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Eco has some pretty bad posts, and I was perhaps too lazy in considering his later posts after the early town read I had. Some of his posts don't even make sense from a town perspective (say, the question at the end of 1000. Why ask that?).
Which posts in particular? I can't defend a vote from vague statements.
The question at the end of 1000 was me being confused at Cyan apparently calling me and Raf scum while Raf was attacking me.
FoS Yodavader
I do agree with Axel's point that it is unlikely that the town would have that many protective roles, and I feel that Yoda is the best best. However, it could be Jer under pressure.
Jer - what ddi you do in the night?
Whut? If Yoda is scum, then where did his claimed (and un-counterclaimed) viggings come from? This attack is bad.
Seriously, that phrase gets thrown around more anymore than WIFOM. And nobody ever uses either one correctly.
Setup analysis is not necessarily gaming the Mod. If 2 people claim Cop, you assume that one of them is lying. Is this gaming the Mod? No, it's not. What lrd is saying is along the same lines. Unfortunately, it is less concrete. Enough so that we probably can't act on it.
I protected Cyan against last night, but I didn't get any flavor that would indicate a block (like night 1). ATM protecting the everyone backup seemed fairly useful.
I still don't like MMQ as scum, but I'm not opposed to Eco ATM. I need to read him more closely though, I haven't paid much attention to him thus far. The only real thing I recall was him deliberately tunnel-visioning early on Yoda, which could be construed either way.
MTGS stats (won/played)
As scum - 3/5
As town - 5/7
As neutral - none
(I really have been scum a lot)
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I'm still not 100% convinced by this lynch, but with an absence of other feasible targets, and Raf looking at least fairly scummy, I guess we don't have a choice.
Also, Axel's point about protective roles is a good observation, and my own role supports it.
This post was made after MMoD hammered RafK and lrd said that's a lynch. This post is talking about the past.
With that in mind, this post says little more than "Don't blame me or my scumbuddies for this mislynch, because we didn't have a choice".
And "feasible targets" sounds scummy as hell. I don't know of a single townie that would call people being scummy "feasible targets". It sounds like you're in the business of killing people.
EBWOP: As in: "DV is being scummy, but I don't know if its because he is scum or a moron"
"I'm not sure on DV" is what you said. You follow it up by summarizing your previous DV post but then immediately discount that with "I don't know how out of character that sort of play is". The entire post seems like an excuse to be able to excuse DV's scummy actions. You say his hammer is awful and contradictory? You say yes. Scummy? You say not necessarily.
Vote: Ecophagy
@Axelrod: MMQ said the same thing about me.
@lrd: I can't understand your post at all except your blatant fishing of Jerubaal, which I highly recommend Jerubaal not respond to.
This post was made after MMoD hammered RafK and lrd said that's a lynch. This post is talking about the past.
With that in mind, this post says little more than "Don't blame me or my scumbuddies for this mislynch, because we didn't have a choice".
This is under the assumption that I knew MMoD hammered. Which I did not.
Quote from Biohazard »
And "feasible targets" sounds scummy as hell. I don't know of a single townie that would call people being scummy "feasible targets". It sounds like you're in the business of killing people.
"feasible targets" as in "people we want to and can lynch within the remaining time until the deadline". I wanted to get the point across, so I used a phrase.
Quote from Bio »
"I'm not sure on DV" is what you said. You follow it up by summarizing your previous DV post but then immediately discount that with "I don't know how out of character that sort of play is". The entire post seems like an excuse to be able to excuse DV's scummy actions. You say his hammer is awful and contradictory? You say yes. Scummy? You say not necessarily.
I wanted to read his other games and see if it was out of character. DV is a very unpredictable player, renowned for saying and doing some very stupid things. Ergo, such actions may not have been scummy for DV if a precedent could be found.
960: You claim that you are "voicing your displeasure at Bio's recent actions". But, when I brought up again why Biohazard is likely town, you just say "pretty much", without even a disagreement. I don't understand why you voted for Bio, despite not apparently finding disagreement with the established argument to the opposite.
I found Bio's wagoning scummy and voted on reflex. I didn't look at anything else, and could not really recall details of previous discussions (bar that the general consensus was "probably not scum").
Quote from Ced »
974: Two things here. Firstly, you attack RafK over his claim. Earlier in the game, I think that you said something about gaming the mod being bad, but that's pretty much what you do here. Secondly, you attack RafK for going for MMQ, for what seems "too much like coincidence" - despite the fact that RafK's first analysis post clearly showed MMQ as somebody he dislikes.
Mod-gaming is something we know is bad on principle, but that doesn't mean we don't do it. I saw something that seemed wrong from a flavour standpoint and brought it up.
MMQ was already under fair suspicion before RafK started posting. RafK pointed fingers at a number of players, including MMQ. MMQ would have been a fair target for scum RafK looking to deflect, and I felt it too coincidental that RafK's top candidate for scum was the wagon rivalling his for the lynch.
Quote from ced »
979: Similar thing with the gaming the mod.
same thing - I saw something that didn't fit and probed.
Quote from ced »
1000: It's mainly that question:
I can see a scum motive for this question: to try and encourage Cyan to form a scumbuddy-link between you in his mind, which can get severed by RafK flipping town. I can also see how a scum mindset would lead to such a question (if a townie attacks you, you know that they're correct already, and so the only accusation later is of bussing), but as for the town reasoning, you'll have to fill me in, because I can't think of much.
Cyan was supporting RafK's attack on me, despite him being convinced of Raf's scum-hood. I didn't understand how he reconciled attacking a player AND that player's target, so I asked what he was thinking.
In retrospect "distancing" may have been a better word than "bussing", but its the same principle.
For the record, I'm fairly convinced Jerubaal is the doctor now... Cyan is both a high quality target in both analysis and ability. makes the most sense.
As for Eco, not entirely convinced either way.
only people i have for town for sure in my mind are Cyan, Jerubaal, and Axelrod. everyone else just floats inbetween somewhere.
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KeyofDestiny, Animated God of Barning of The Æesir.
Mafia Stats:
2/3 Loss(#28 Town Disgaea,)
1/3 Wins(#29 Chess replacement, #1 Town GCF)
@Ced: I'm not really happy with Axel's participation in RafK's lynch. He's been saying all game 'don't trust RafK', and when it came time to finally comment on RafK's wagon, claim, etc..all he had to offer was role-based speculation. I agree with what he was saying at the time, and am not criticizing him for that thought pattern in particular, but the way he went about it strikes me as off, especially for Axelrod.
It's not enough to sway my vote off of Eco right now, but, it's something.
I don't really have any particular read on him, but that's actually enough to put him onto my shortlist since so many others are reading as town. I should start joining in the wagons now as I can see that there is a benefit even in mislynching over a no-lynch.
That very Heavily suggests that you know that my lynch will be a mislynch. Inside information?
IMHO, the biggest real point against Axel is that he's a somewhat reputable player on these board and he's still alive. Other than that, I don't think I've seen any significant scum tells in his posting.
MTGS stats (won/played)
As scum - 3/5
As town - 5/7
As neutral - none
(I really have been scum a lot)
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lrd said it was a lynch (by extention saying MMoD hammered).
I posted directly after lrd, before you did.
I saw lrd's post and figured lrd was right.
If you had been paying attention, you should've seen lrd's post also.
You were paying attention, because you immediately responded to my post I just made, so it would be practically impossible to not notice lrd calling a lynch in the post above me.
You say you didn't know MMoD hammered when you posted (by extention saying you didn't read lrd's post).
There is no way you couldn't have seen lrd's post. I'm calling you lying scum.
"feasible targets" as in "people we want to and can lynch within the remaining time until the deadline". I wanted to get the point across, so I used a phrase.
Still sounds too much like you're in the killing business for my liking.
I wanted to read his other games and see if it was out of character. DV is a very unpredictable player, renowned for saying and doing some very stupid things. Ergo, such actions may not have been scummy for DV if a precedent could be found.
Precisely. You were arguing DV's actions could be not scummy, which is a clear break from arguing DV's actions are scummy.
Cyan was supporting RafK's attack on me, despite him being convinced of Raf's scum-hood. I didn't understand how he reconciled attacking a player AND that player's target, so I asked what he was thinking.
You ignore RafK's argument against yourself and instead focus on Cyans agreement with it. Scummy.
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I"m having a hard time settling on one of them, though. I'm tempted to switch my vote back and forth like..every post.
RafaelK - (5) - Axelrod, jerubbaal, Biohazard, Cyan, Ced395
Syrenz - (2) - Yodavader, Toastboy
Madmanquail - (2) Mystery Meat of Doom, Rafaelk
Raf's claim does nothing to make me want to unvote him, nor do his long review posts.
Please also note that any deadlines I make will be judged on NZ (GMT+12) time.
I had a text doc on my other computer but I'm not totally sure I still have it. I basically decided I didn't think lrd was scum and MMoD I really can't tell.
I wasn't thinking about whether it was stopping or not. I simply agreed that RafK's recent posts had seemed more town to me and unvoted.
I don't recall anything before, no. I didn't mention it until then for the same reason as RafK.
I was figuring you as town but didn't find anything conclusive towards that fact.
Anyways I'm pretty sure MMQ is town, don't really know about RafK though.
Lair of the Cat (Mafia Stats)
I don't even know that it's a point against him; it's just odd that when I said DYH seemed to have been killed by the same thing that did the claw attack on night 1, he asked why DYH wasn't killed by the mafia (as if he has inside information that the claw attack isn't mafia). But because it seems most likely that DYH was killed by the same thing but also that it is the mafia, I have no idea what was up with that.
We know now that Yodavader killed RO (who should have been confirmed town based on earlier days; anyway, we've been through that), and obviously DYH wouldn't have killed himself so by process of elimination the mafia killed him and DYH killed Dagger, yes.
Yes, it does.
No-one has made any serious point against me other than ecophagy's late and terrible flavour argument. Not one. People have said "I am scummier" (why? what posts? No-one says!) or that my claim is scummier (why?) It irritates me a great deal that I bothered to come back and contribute to the game, and do the analysis no-one else was bothering to do, and a bunch of people are standing around not offering anything but a vote.
I'm particularly annoyed at Axelrod, who knows better, and who made a point of prodding me into action in the first place, and who hinted at some secret reason for it, only to apparently ignore the results.
I agree with you there. I have said all I can say. MMQ has had and still has time to talk, if he wants to talk instead of hiding while his work is done for him. Other people have had and still have time to offer actual opinions if they have them. Lynch someone at the deadline, not a no lynch. If it's me, at least this is all out of your system and you can lynch MMQ tomorrow and then move on to the people protecting him today (eco and Toastboy the two first cabs of the rank, that order, eco's flavour argument against me I find almost impossible to believe was sincere and he's spent just about the whole game previously trying to stay out of trouble and not get involved; even more so because both are avoiding actually voting me). If it's MMQ, then we get a scum immediately and obviously I prefer that
RafK is 3 from lynch. It's time to move forward. I think MMQ has been fairly scummy, and even if his claim is truthful, it doesn't particularly save him..but more on that later. Of the two, I feel that more 'genuine town' comes from MMQ's posts than RafKs...by a hair(like 22 v. AK suited pre-flop).
*shrug* I just don't consider MMQ or RafK to be lynch-worthy. With the deadline tomorrow, I guess I'd put my vote on Raf to get something out of the day, but I don't feel confident in Raf's scumhood.
Do you consider Raf to be bussing me or what?
You can be annoyed all you want, but I am fairly confident that you are scum now, so I got what I wanted out of it.
For everyone else, let me suggest that it seems unlikely to me that the town would have a Doc role (jerubbal), a 1/2 "stealth" role (Yodavader), Dagger's role (which I do not entirely know what it did, but I do know that it had to do with "shielding" technology), plus someone else who is (apparently) totally NK immune - even with unrevealed drawback.
Rafk's claim is bad, and normally I wouldn't be unhappy to see him swing, but MMQ takes the cake for me. Don't expect me to move my vote unless it's needed to end the day without a no-lynch.
Hos: Ecophagy He should be lynched tomorrow.
Defending DV
Attacking DV
Defending DV, but this is post is as waffly as it gets, beacause it includes that he thinks DV's hammer vote is awful.
Note the difference between "Sounds pretty standard for DV." in the first quote to "I don't know out of character that sort of play is." in the above quote.
Attacking DV, votes DV soon after
So he goes from Defending DV to attacking DV to defending DV to attacking DV
extremely waffly.
If you want more evidence, look at how much he cites ced as why DV is contradictory (see underlined, I count three posts, two with direct attribution to ced). Blatant bandwagoning and associating with ced. Highly suspicious.
However Vote Stands. I have no intention of removing my vote from RafK until tomorrow. RafK is the most suspicious person with a vote on him, and with the deadline looming I don't think that changing my vote would benefit the town.
I've been playing the whole game under the assumption that Eco was town but I'll try to reread his posts soon anyways.
@Toastboy- Note how Biohazard only posts this after people have started expressing suspicion on Eco. Does this mean he is scum as well?
I really don't know about RafK and I wouldn't know if having all those roles is unusual or not.
On a side point Yodavader seems to have decided that he is safe and as such dropped his post count significantly. With his posts after his claim being on 11-18-2009, next post 11-23-2009, and finally 11-30-2009.
Lair of the Cat (Mafia Stats)
Your first quote is form early day one. Further, I defy you to go find a DV game where he doesn't talk drivel.
The Second is the end of day one (IIRC) - I agree with ced that DV is scummy.
The Third: I still agree DV is scummy, but I think Yoda is more scummy
The Forth: Ced points out further contradiction that proves DV is lying. I vote him shortly afterward.
So my thought and action process was:
DV is being DV > DV is being scummy > DV is still scummy > DV is highly likely scum.
I really don't see what is wrong here.
Syrenz: good point about Yoda. Simply being probable town is no excuse to not post (hell, it should be a reason to post more)
Hey, an actual reason given why someone thinks I'm scum. Stop the presses.
Of course, it's gaming the setup and doesn't even try to analyse behaviour, but hey, it's a start. Not a GOOD start, but a start.
Not a bad point about the amount of defensive roles; for me (since I know, after all, that I'm telling the truth) it tends towards reinforcing both of our earlier comments that jerub's doc claim does not completely clear him. It's also possible that our mod did this to mitigate multiple killing roles, as I did in the Persona design, for example. Or perhaps the design just has too many defensive roles. It happens.
Yes, funny how as soon as I call you out for hiding while other people do your work for you, there you are.
Aren't you the cat that swallowed the canary? The tone of this post gives you away; suddenly you have confidence. You think you've won something, and that you can sass me with impunity.
You do realise that getting me mislynched sees you dead tomorrow anyway? You are trapped; the worst case for me is a one-for-one with you dying tomorrow. I really don't mind this. It annoys me that I am being lynched first because there is seriously no case at all on me, but in game terms it is not a bad deal and I will take it any day of the week.
Scum defend scum all the time, even when they shouldn't, even the most experienced. This is a very WIFOM point from you; not your only one, either.
You could have just said "I know you are but what am I". It would have been shorter and meant the same thing.
There is a lot more than thin air against you. People can draw their own conclusions.
That question wasn't to you, it was asked directly to your friend who played the newb card on your behalf. I agree absolutely that what you've said doesn't seem to leave room for a "newb misunderstanding" of what your role is, your claim is very clear- that was actually my point.
"Behavioural evidence" absolutely includes what people actually say, and also their voting patterns. The alternative is evidence based on claims and night ability results.
I probably could have just quoted MMOD's post and said "I agree", and added that last bit to explain behavioural evidence, now that I think about it.
I do agree that the RafK's long posts are more to clear people than to find scum, but I don't find it scummy in itself. I believe that he is town.
I still think Syrenz is scum. He is too easily swayed and it feels like he is not thinking for himself but using the swing of the wagon to vote or unvote. When a wagon gets going, he jumps on without much thought for himself. Then when the wagon starts to fizzle, again, he jumps off saying "Oh, good point." So, my vote on Syrenz stays.
As far as MMQ goes, I am leaning on the scummy side, but not enough to change my vote.
And Cyan has popped on my scumdar. Mostly for his 5000 vote/unvotes today. He is acting like a sheep. He is falling into the Syrenz category but again, it's just a blip on the radar.
The trouble with a vote on Syrenz in this deadline situation is that he won't get lynched before deadline, so that's effectively a no lynch vote. I'd prefer you vote for me before you vote for him at the moment (yes, obviously I would prefer a vote for MMQ above that, but seriously, even lynching me > a no lynch, or else we'll be back arguing this same thing tomorrow).
MMQ: I'm curious about this remark:
Exactly how are you drawing this distinction?
I agree with RafK on this point. I still believe that Syrenz is scum, but at the moment, you are correct, a mislynch is better than a no lynch.
Seriously, I would like to know this as well.
Lair of the Cat (Mafia Stats)
unvote, vote Rafk
I still prefer MMQ. His last post doesn't make him any better in my books. So much of it is just... fluff.
Let's say that we choose to NL today. We have some suspects, but, don't feel the like lynch is concrete enough to justify. So..what happens?
We go to night, some actions happen. Townies die, and other unknowns. Tomorrow starts..then what?
Then we are left with the same suspects from the previous day, and most likely just end up lynching one of them anyway.
NL is only useful in specific niche situations. A mislynch is typically preferable. It gives you information on the person lynched, their wagon, etc.
How is "I'm not sure about DV" = "DV is still scummy"?
Also, Axel's point about protective roles is a good observation, and my own role supports it.
MMoD and Toastboy are the ones who pull the trigger. The first salvo becomes a bowl of petunias. The second salvo hits a wall of energy.
The third salvo destroys the ship.
"Not... again.", the bowl of petunias thinks.
RafaelK - Heart of Gold has been lynched.
It is now NIGHT 4. Night actions due 48 HOURS from the lynch scene.
Happily, you all realize that everyone in the Fleet has survived the last Night.
--------------------------------------------------
It is now DAY 5. With 13 alive, it is 7 to lynch.
Based on a bunch of stuff said yesterday by people other than me.
Just reiterating my vote.
Vote: Syrenz
I've also been unimpressed with Eco's posting lately.
Your role supports it. Well "it" was completely wrong, so what does that say about your role?
Which posts in particular? I can't defend a vote from vague statements.
The question at the end of 1000 was me being confused at Cyan apparently calling me and Raf scum while Raf was attacking me.
It suggests that how WoD balances a game is questionable.
Whut? If Yoda is scum, then where did his claimed (and un-counterclaimed) viggings come from? This attack is bad.
Seriously, that phrase gets thrown around more anymore than WIFOM. And nobody ever uses either one correctly.
Setup analysis is not necessarily gaming the Mod. If 2 people claim Cop, you assume that one of them is lying. Is this gaming the Mod? No, it's not. What lrd is saying is along the same lines. Unfortunately, it is less concrete. Enough so that we probably can't act on it.
Lair of the Cat (Mafia Stats)
I still don't like MMQ as scum, but I'm not opposed to Eco ATM. I need to read him more closely though, I haven't paid much attention to him thus far. The only real thing I recall was him deliberately tunnel-visioning early on Yoda, which could be construed either way.
MTGS stats (won/played)
As scum - 3/5
As town - 5/7
As neutral - none
(I really have been scum a lot)
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With that in mind, this post says little more than "Don't blame me or my scumbuddies for this mislynch, because we didn't have a choice".
And "feasible targets" sounds scummy as hell. I don't know of a single townie that would call people being scummy "feasible targets". It sounds like you're in the business of killing people.
"I'm not sure on DV" is what you said. You follow it up by summarizing your previous DV post but then immediately discount that with "I don't know how out of character that sort of play is". The entire post seems like an excuse to be able to excuse DV's scummy actions. You say his hammer is awful and contradictory? You say yes. Scummy? You say not necessarily.
Vote: Ecophagy
@Axelrod: MMQ said the same thing about me.
@lrd:
This is under the assumption that I knew MMoD hammered. Which I did not.
"feasible targets" as in "people we want to and can lynch within the remaining time until the deadline". I wanted to get the point across, so I used a phrase.
I wanted to read his other games and see if it was out of character. DV is a very unpredictable player, renowned for saying and doing some very stupid things. Ergo, such actions may not have been scummy for DV if a precedent could be found.
I found Bio's wagoning scummy and voted on reflex. I didn't look at anything else, and could not really recall details of previous discussions (bar that the general consensus was "probably not scum").
Mod-gaming is something we know is bad on principle, but that doesn't mean we don't do it. I saw something that seemed wrong from a flavour standpoint and brought it up.
MMQ was already under fair suspicion before RafK started posting. RafK pointed fingers at a number of players, including MMQ. MMQ would have been a fair target for scum RafK looking to deflect, and I felt it too coincidental that RafK's top candidate for scum was the wagon rivalling his for the lynch.
same thing - I saw something that didn't fit and probed.
Cyan was supporting RafK's attack on me, despite him being convinced of Raf's scum-hood. I didn't understand how he reconciled attacking a player AND that player's target, so I asked what he was thinking.
In retrospect "distancing" may have been a better word than "bussing", but its the same principle.
As for Eco, not entirely convinced either way.
only people i have for town for sure in my mind are Cyan, Jerubaal, and Axelrod. everyone else just floats inbetween somewhere.
Mafia Stats:
2/3 Loss(#28 Town Disgaea,)
1/3 Wins(#29 Chess replacement, #1 Town GCF)
What makes you think Axelrod is town? I'm not really convinced of that one, it's just hard to put together a case on him.
No. It was the wrong night. I cannot vig on certain nights. I cloaked last night.
It's not enough to sway my vote off of Eco right now, but, it's something.
That very Heavily suggests that you know that my lynch will be a mislynch. Inside information?
Why are you voting Eco, MMQ?
MTGS stats (won/played)
As scum - 3/5
As town - 5/7
As neutral - none
(I really have been scum a lot)
I'm now writing for Eye of the Vortex, come check out MTG articles and other geek culture
I also moderate the MTG forum, so register (it's free) and voice your thoughts.
lrd said it was a lynch (by extention saying MMoD hammered).
I posted directly after lrd, before you did.
I saw lrd's post and figured lrd was right.
If you had been paying attention, you should've seen lrd's post also.
You were paying attention, because you immediately responded to my post I just made, so it would be practically impossible to not notice lrd calling a lynch in the post above me.
You say you didn't know MMoD hammered when you posted (by extention saying you didn't read lrd's post).
There is no way you couldn't have seen lrd's post. I'm calling you lying scum.Still sounds too much like you're in the killing business for my liking.Precisely. You were arguing DV's actions could be not scummy, which is a clear break from arguing DV's actions are scummy.You ignore RafK's argument against yourself and instead focus on Cyans agreement with it. Scummy.