Maybe he can explain how AI's vote is 'opportunistic' when AI was the first person(or one of them) to express serious suspicion against Infinis in the first place.
Nice use of charged language to dismiss everything I say. I also like the two modifiers to hedge your bets "first (or one of them)" and "serious" suspicion.
All suspicious of me way before AI and since we're out of the random phase, serious suspicion is a null modifier like "uniquer" and "more random"
Since you're the doc at the setup. It's an easy hop on my wagon for scum (re: AI) He was counting on WoD and Guardman's and Cantrip's vote for the mislynch.
Follow the trail:
Cantrip and I battle it out. Cantrip's already voted me once not a stretch for a second vote on my wagon.
You're vote is assured. Since you thought I was scum buddies with guardman. You rarely if ever change your mind this far into a game You vote on my wagon was a 90% lock. MH is new and may not be being coached, but I predicted your play, wrong about Cantrip but not about you.
MH is PO'd because she believe's I ad hommed her and not her play (I separate the two). I'll have to spend some time responding to her case more.
Guardman and I "seem" to have beef from SoT mafia. (He wasn't confirmed vig and if he didnt want to eliminate a claimed neutral because he was scared then so be it. he was better off dead) This is a better than 50% chance guardman votes me.
WoD's dismissed my vote justification post with a single word, which I've already touched upon. He's probably going to vote me or AI. That's good odds for scum.
That's six votes, plus his. Mislynch. Even if one or two of these votes don't come through for him, we haven't heard from Tekno, Calvin, or Kpaca. That's good odds one of them votes me, barring that they are scum buddies with AI, which I can't exclude, but I highly doubt Calvin and kpaca are scum. Tek needs a reread.
And you're right defeatism achieves nothing. If I'm lynched compare your, kpaca's, and my wagon, I'm sure you'll flush some scum out.
I'm amused that [Shalako], of all people, are talking about terrible reasoning. "Hey, PF's RVS daykill must be serious, therefore I should shoot him to prove that I have a daykill!"
Trying to explain your vote with "I'D DO THIS IF I'M THIS ALIGNMENT, this if I'm THIS ALIGNMENT, and this if I'm THIS ALIGNMENT" just always looks really bad to me. It's like you're trying to justify your vote, for other reasons than the other person's play. The thing is, I just won't accept reasons like that.
I was neutral on AK, but since you were poised to jump on my wagon once the votes started landing, in a somewhat dodgy manner, plus your latest responses - I'm happy with a Unvote: Vote Infinis.
Cantrip and I battle it out. Cantrip's already voted me once not a stretch for a second vote on my wagon.
You're vote is assured. Since you thought I was scum buddies with guardman. You rarely if ever change your mind this far into a game You vote on my wagon was a 90% lock. MH is new and may not be being coached, but I predicted your play, wrong about Cantrip but not about you.
MH is PO'd because she believe's I ad hommed her and not her play (I separate the two). I'll have to spend some time responding to her case more.
Guardman and I "seem" to have beef from SoT mafia. (He wasn't confirmed vig and if he didnt want to eliminate a claimed neutral because he was scared then so be it. he was better off dead) This is a better than 50% chance guardman votes me.
WoD's dismissed my vote justification post with a single word, which I've already touched upon. He's probably going to vote me or AI. That's good odds for scum.
That's six votes, plus his. Mislynch. Even if one or two of these votes don't come through for him, we haven't heard from Tekno, Calvin, or Kpaca. That's good odds one of them votes me, barring that they are scum buddies with AI, which I can't exclude, but I highly doubt Calvin and kpaca are scum. Tek needs a reread.
Actually, these players are voting against you because of your scummy behavior. I doubt MH is voting you because you insulted her or that Guardman is that petty, though personally I believe Guardman's bussing you.
This might be considered gaming the mod, but in the Indiana Jones series, Marcus brody was a museum owner and a curator. This makes it highly unlikely you have no items. Not to mention the fact that I don't buy your vanilla claim.
Vote: Infinis
I do not like that you hammered before kpaca could check in. I'm not worried about Infinis's alignment though, he's definitely going to flip scum.
Tekno being out of town so often could explain why no lynches went through. BUt that seems to easy...
Also of note is how no one waited for the case against me or a defense thereof. It quickly went from "He's being falsely emotive and insulting" to "I don't like your posts", no cases, just attacks, and now the mislynch.
@kpaca As I came to see with Seppel, I know see with you. Art of War indeed.
@Cyan I wish you'ld given me the benefit of the doubt you gave kpaca or even looked at my wagon. Note the wagon went through as I predicted in my last post.
@kraj the game may not be a broken setup, but what you did is plain evil (or chance is a cruel mistress)
I'm amused that [Shalako], of all people, are talking about terrible reasoning. "Hey, PF's RVS daykill must be serious, therefore I should shoot him to prove that I have a daykill!"
So it's my fault that you don't read my posts? I don't like that logic.
No you intentionally left wiggle room, to seem townie. With three claims, (two items and one ability), everyone knows you contradicted yourself scum but left a sliver of doubt to escape the consequences of horrible gaming the mod, the worst I've seen.
I'm amused that [Shalako], of all people, are talking about terrible reasoning. "Hey, PF's RVS daykill must be serious, therefore I should shoot him to prove that I have a daykill!"
No you intentionally left wiggle room, to seem townie. With three claims, (two items and one ability), everyone knows you contradicted yourself scum but left a sliver of doubt to escape the consequences of horrible gaming the mod, the worst I've seen.
That's three PRs, two items. kpaca may or may not have an item as well, but at any rate even if I were wrong about how valid your claim was, it doesn't nullify your other scum tells.
I hope you learned something from this game. Stop being emotional scum, it's terribly obvious.
I'm amused that [Shalako], of all people, are talking about terrible reasoning. "Hey, PF's RVS daykill must be serious, therefore I should shoot him to prove that I have a daykill!"
We need to discuss the items a little more because, right now, I'm under the impression that AI's planning to take one or both (can you take items from more than one person a night?) items from us and distribute them to his pick for lynch tomorrow.
Personally, I agree with TeknoLink that, if Infinis comes up town, it makes me very leery of AI. That being said, I have a good idea of who I plan to give my item to, so would like to be left alone tonight. I will be giving it to the person I think is scummiest. I agree that it should be removed from the game.
Slight hyperbole. I'm working with the assumption that there are not very many items in this game, so using my ability blindly would miss more often than hit. I take any and all items from someone I target and have the option to give those to another player.
That's NOT how it sounded from the post you made about "If I don't know who has items, my ability's worthless.", but I concede that you couched your language well enough that it is unassailable via logic. Seeing as how that's happened multiple times, with options being "it was accidental" and "AI's just that good", I'm leaning toward "it was accidental". Not that that proves you town, just that you're likely not lying about your ability.
Quote from AI »
I include relevant information where it naturally belongs in a discussion. It would be troublesome for a reader of my PBPA to constantly cross-reference my summarized recommendations to the section of the PBPA that includes the topic being discussed.
I don't think the flak on AK was particularly deserved. She was indecisive and lurky. As far as I'm aware, n00b town and n00b scum are both known to play this way.
True dat. And I recognize discussion where discussion fits as being logical...but I'm awfully glad that you came back to it outside the PBPA. If you hadn't, I would have been extremely upset.
Quote from AI »
Come up with a better plan and we'll talk.
Calvin gives the item away, leaving you out of it. I admit that your plan has a better chance of success, since your ability may occur prior to the NK, but I still don't fully trust you, and I do trust Calvin.
Quote from AI »
Maybe posting a scum list will help you off that fence.
You mean my own? Sure:
TeknoLink
AI
WrathOfDog
Infinis
Quote from AI »
OK. I'll get to [Infinis' PBPA].
TL;DB.
Quote from AI »
I said in my last post that it isn't the only reason he should be lynched. I'll even remedy that statement because it was somewhat misleading: It is not a reason he should be lynched, but it is also not a reason he should not be lynched, which I would argue is the purpose of a claim under pressure.
Fair 'nuff, but you did identify it as a reason.
Quote from AI »
Don't forget that scum can get emotional too when they're under fire. I find defeatism to be a town tell among n00bs and a scum tell among experienced players. Clearly Infinis is not a n00b.
What about an immature experienced town?
Quote from AI »
I'm not sure what you meant with your implication that the Infinis wagon is more attractive because Guardman is not the one at L-2, but based on his play I'm sure Guardman will find his way to the gallows in due time.
Where do I imply that? I said it was surprising that the wagon was on Infinis, and maybe that meant something, but point out that implication you mention.
Quote from AI »
:teach:(On human anatomy)
Sorry...it took me several pages to recognize AK as female, and then you replaced, and ... yeah, sorry.
*sigh* Faced with a building wagon, and this is all you want to talk about? It feels like you're returning to harp on the only argument you feel you have any control over...and it's not really a relevant one.
Quote from Infinis »
Really? Someone call the One Eyed Man, Asian needs a king.
More insults. Lovely.
Quote from Infinis »
Cases on AI/AK, WoD, and MH to follow. Cantrip's or a player of Cantrip's choice to pick to start with.
What? Seriously? Now we're buddy-buddy, and I get to direct your actions?
Nice use of charged language to dismiss everything I say. I also like the two modifiers to hedge your bets "first (or one of them)" and "serious" suspicion.
All suspicious of me way before AI and since we're out of the random phase, serious suspicion is a null modifier like "uniquer" and "more random"
Oh. My. Goodness. Seriously? I'm surprised you didn't quote some of the random-phase votes against you. Yes, everyone's going to have suspicion leveled against them throughout the game, and you're certainly no exception. Oddly, your obstinate efforts in this actually feel townish. :/
This might be considered gaming the mod, but in the Indiana Jones series, Marcus brody was a museum owner and a curator. This makes it highly unlikely you have no items. Not to mention the fact that I don't buy your vanilla claim.
Vote: Infinis
You suddenly shot to the top of my scumlist. All the info that's being bandied about and you decide to HAMMER off of MODGAMING?!? Before all members of the game could chime in??? What the flip is the matter with you? You'd better hope that Infinis is scum, because if he's not, you're in trouble, my friend. Even if he is, I'm concerned by this move. It feels flighty.
@kpaca As I came to see with Seppel, I know see with you. Art of War indeed.
@Cyan I wish you'ld given me the benefit of the doubt you gave kpaca or even looked at my wagon. Note the wagon went through as I predicted in my last post.
@kraj the game may not be a broken setup, but what you did is plain evil (or chance is a cruel mistress)
@asian Invasion Bussing the hammer?
All these little postscripts don't feel like scum dying. I sure hope we're on solid ground with this lynch.
Well, now I feel like I've fallen down on the job. I think this is a bad lynch, but I know I didn't exactly do anything to disuade people or really push for an alternate. I'm sure part of this is from being a replacement and part is from all the other replacements. I'll try to batten down the hatches a bit better tomorrow.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
We need to discuss the items a little more because, right now, I'm under the impression that AI's planning to take one or both (can you take items from more than one person a night?) items from us and distribute them to his pick for lynch tomorrow.
Personally, I agree with TeknoLink that, if Infinis comes up town, it makes me very leery of AI. That being said, I have a good idea of who I plan to give my item to, so would like to be left alone tonight. I will be giving it to the person I think is scummiest. I agree that it should be removed from the game.
Meant to respond to this, too. I don't believe AI can steal from more than one person.
I think both Calvin and MH should distribute the items as they see fit. I trust both of them far more than I trust AI.
No, his head and the phone are ringing. Maybe answering the phone will make the head better.
It doesn’t.
“Indy?”
“Marcus.”
“You need to come to the Museum, Indy. There’s something you need to see.”
...Another swirl of irridescent white dissolves...
Dining al fresco at twilight, at their favorite cafe in Bedford.
"I still can't believe how you pulled that off, Indy. Even after all these years you never fail to amaze me, my friend."
"You're too modest, Marcus. I never would have pieced it together if you hadn't uncovered that vital clue."
"I would say 'fell on' is a more appropriate descriptor than 'uncovered', wouldn't you?"
They shared a laugh...
The light churned.
They shared a laugh. A last laugh.
The doctor arrived to take Marcus to surgical prep. His chances weren't good. The tumor was in a very difficult place and most people didn't wake up from this surgery. But Marcus was no quitter, and his brain was worth keeping around a little longer.
Just a little longer...
His vision blurred, but not from the strange mist this time. As he was wheeled away, Marcus' smile dissolved in tiny oceans and ran down Indy's cheek. There was nothing he could do to save his friend.
Infinis has been lynched. He was Dr. Marcus Brody, Vanilla Town.
It is now Night 1. Actions are due by 12 noon central time, Friday the 12th. If you have an action you wish not to use or an item you do not intent to pass, please let me know.
A reminder that night actions are due in 24 hours. If I don't receive your action you don't get one, but please tell me if you don't want to use an ability or pass an item, so everyone isn't waiting on you.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The Golden Rule of forums: If you're going to be rude, be right. If you might be wrong, be polite.
The mists swirl, and a confusing jumble of images he doesn't understand flashes before Indy's eyes. Eventually he realizes he's seeing events that occured to people he knows, but are they happening now, or will they happen in the future? Did they happen in the past? Did they change the present? This was too much confusion for him to handle. He needed to focus on the most relevant pieces of what he saw and figure out what to do with that information:
He saw Asian Invasion, aka Major Arnold Toht, Mafia Redirector lying dead in his bed. It looked like he was poisoned.
He also saw Wrath_of_DoG, who he recognized as Kazim, Vanilla Townie, shot in the chest.
It is now day 2.
With 9 alive it's 5 to lynch.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The Golden Rule of forums: If you're going to be rude, be right. If you might be wrong, be polite.
Ok, so I did a lot of re-reading and evaluating and decided to give my item to Cyan last night. I know this is surprising, so I have also created my case on him. Man, I love being off the day before night ends.
@Calvin: The only effective way for that item to be managed is for us to know who has it. Especially if you get killed or something.
At first, I saw no problem with this because I am new to item games. However, seeing as how it has been the (pretty much) collected consensus that this item is detrimental to the town, I'm confused as to why this was not his first opinion of the item. I realize other people had already posted this theory, but this is just the first thing.
We all know Cyan was pretty non-existent in the beginning of the game. Here:
Such a pitiful stall. Stop trying to feel out what the best false claim is.
Seriously, this is just dumb. Someone is going to present a case now(I suspect it will end up being me). And then what? You'll try to argue against it while you're sitting at L-2? Get real. Nobody put forth anything remotely resembling a real case against me, but that didn't stop everyone from wanting my claim. Including you, considering that you were on my wagon. Good job being a giant hypocrite.
Frankly, this double standard that you're presenting in regard ot your own claim is scummy enough behavior in and of itself to warrant suspicion against you. Nothing else is even needed now.
He again states it'll likely be him putting forth a case on kpaca.
I've never given any reticence to providing the flavor behind my claim. I really don't see why it's necessary, because frankly, a Doc claim in a mini is extremely solid.
Anyway, the 'flavor' behind my role is that I am Doctor Ella Schnieder(that might be misspelled). I'm the Doc because..I'm the Doc. Pretty basic.
I find it interesting that you are attacking the fact that I won't provide flavor behind a claim as strong/solid as doc, while at the same time also defending the fact that Kpaca refuses to claim at all. Pretty sure there is something going on here.
I researched Elsa Schneider (no big he was wrong on her name) because I didn't remember her from the movies. She is indeed a doctor (of art, she's an art professor) but she is also referred to as a "femme fatale". She was in The Last Crusade and, if I remember correctly, was the antagonist. This worries me, based on my own role.
I have no idea what I was thinking. He actually has quite a few posts that sound extremely pro-town(his attitude towards Calvin's early revelation, his probing of Archon Kamigawa, etc).
Unvote
Back to the drawing board.
he finally realizes that there was no case on kpaca to be made, other than meta. Interesting to say the least.
Here is when he changes his stance (almost immediately) onto Guardman, who seems town to me, as I've already stated.
Ok, so in the spoiler is his case on Guardman. Upon reading it, it seems a little flimsy to me. First of all, he posted it in a way that has already been stated in this thread to be anti-town. It is unhelpful for us to keep going back and forth finding Guardman's posts, especially when it is not hard at all to link said post to the post numbers.
Post 71: Guardman's attitude here regarding jordman reads to me as a passive defense of him. Certainly, there is not even the slightest indication that he has any problem with any of jordman's posts. This post is not, in and of itself, a big deal.
Post 104: This post is the problem. Here, he says that he 'initially misread' Jordman. For one thing, he didn't previously claim a read on jordman; he just commented on jordman's inability to type. This post reads as fairly insincere and opportunistic. Then, there is his next post:
Post 108: Here, Guardman says that he 'never said jordman was jumping from wagon to wagon'. His exact words were:
Originally Posted by guardman
He has been jumping all over the place and his post where he both votes and unvotes Cantrip and kpaca is especially bad. So far jordman seems like jumpy scum who is trying to find something to latch onto and wagon.
This is pretty much the accusation that jordman tried to defend himself against. Guardman tried to clarify it, but I think that clarification is A)insincere and B)incorrect anyway.
Ok, first of all, Guardman did not say jordman was jumping from wagon to wagon. He said, in not so many words, that jordman is jumping from person to person trying to start a wagon. Awful misrep, Cyan.
In post 126, Guardman says that he is 'leaning slightly town' on Tek, because Tek 'made a good case against jordman'. Doesn't say why the case is good.
In post 181, after having been queried about his approval of Tek's case, he says 'it was good but could have been better'. Still, absolutely no indication of why it is a good case. Also in this post, says that jordman is scummy because he moves his vote alot(paraphrase, but it's the same). No explanation of why this is scummy. If anything, guardman should realize that it's a pro-town move in this case, because jordman was moving his vote around alot..to people that weren't being voted(by guardman's own admission). Seems like he just wants to make anything stick against jordman.
I don't see why he needs to state specifically what about the case he liked, but moving on...
Post 190: Unvotes jordman because jordman got suspended. While I understand this, I really don't agree with it. If he is genuinely convinced that jordman is scum(and considering that he has talked about virtually nothing else up to this point, it seems like he should be), then there is no reason to unvote. Jordman was not looking at a long suspension at that point.
I, personally, would find it pretty scummy if he hadn't unvoted someone who could no longer defend themselves. As he stated, he wanted to look elsewhere for now, and I agree with that.
Post 198: Doesn't seem to have a problem with Kpaca's metagame attack against me, but, takes issue with me pointint out that it is an incorrect assessment. This is a pretty big double standard.
I've got a question for you. Why, as town doc, would you claim due to a wagon based solely on meta? Town doc is usually the first PR killed due to early claims, and, no matter what you say, town doc can be extremely helpful. To reiterate my point, I think it's scummier that Cyan was willing to claim that than it is for kpaca to refuse to claim for no good reason.
Post 213: Unvotes me after I claim. This post seems to be on the up and up; his self-defense here seems valid.
Post 227: Points out to TB the posts where he pressed me for content. I see this as also a pro-town post.
Why did you even include these? You're trying to make him seem scummy. I don't include pro-town posts in my PBPAs, although it is pretty understood that there are probably some somewhere.
Post 249: Seems to be gearing up to go at jordman again, once jordman is around. Says he 'still doesn't like jordman', but again, it seems very disengenous that he unvoted him in the first place if his actual stance on him didn't change.
Uses meta to downplay the attacks on Kpaca, which is in contradiction with me using meta to defend myself against kpaca's incorrect meta-attack on me.
Post 255: Says that it is pro-town that Tek has continued against jordman even though jordman is suspended. I find this to be a huge, huge slip, because obviously guardman himself ditched that wagon as soon as jordman got suspended.
I would like to point out that Teknolink also unvoted jordman when he was suspended, but your own double standard is noted.
Honestly, I think that this last post largely amounts to a smoking gun against guardman. I don't feel that I need to analyze further. If people are still need convinced, I will assess the rest of his posts. But I really don't think that this should be necessary. Unvote, Vote Guardman
tl;dr - I am not convinced of Guardman's scumminess after reading Cyan's PBPA, but I feel better about Cyan's.
Ok, so the infamous mistake:
I think that the plan itself is fine; except it's coming from an untrustworthy source.
Still, Calvin does need to give it away, and I like the idea of putting the scum into a WIFOM situation regarding my NK.
I still say that the reason the scum NK was on his mind is because he was thinking about who he would kill.
It seems suspect that Infinis chooses now to start really getting into big cases.
His post earlier(with the huge text etc.) seems like a huge feigned overreaction, also.
Unvote, Vote Infinis
I have another question for you, now that Infinis has come up town. Is he known for making gambits like the one we accused him of? Why didn't you answer that before he was lynched? He was counting on you to help him make his case, and you didn't. (Granted, he was counting on kpaca, too, but kpaca obviously had issues and couldn't post)
The most damning pieces of evidence against Cyan is the fact that he faults Guardman on his "double standard" yet has one himself, and the fact that he didn't respond, or even mention, whether or not Infinis was known for gambits such as the one he was accused for. The Infinis thing has me pretty convinced, though. As town, you should provide the benefit of the doubt if something the person under fire says strikes home. Un-cc'd doc? I think not. I think, if we have a real doc, they've decided to keep quiet. Hopefully they will decide to come out after this. Vote:Cyan
Just so you all know, the only other person I considered giving my item to was Teknolink because that hammer was awful, and his play's been terrible. But, his play was terrible in Normalville, too, and he was town.
However, I was unable to give my item to Cyan because it was taken from me. Given the actions of last night, it's seems to me that AI took my item, but was killed by the vig (assuming we have one, of course)
Actually, I'm here for a little bit, then gone for a little bit, then here for a little bit, then quite possibly gone til the 15th. As I only have a few minutes right now, I want to go on record with:
1) MH, there are interesting points to your Cyan case, but by and large, I still fear lynching an un-cc'd doc. I will go into more detail hopefully before the end of the day.
2) Your lovely item (which I can confirm works as you indicated -- possessor's vote is doubled, but puts the possessor at -2 to their own lynch) was given to me (I would think AI's redirection likely). As proof: Vote: Cantripmancer.
Kraj, I very specifically read the rules and didn't see anything discouraging self-votes, so I hope this isn't a problem. Also: Mod: Votecount, please.
EBWODP: Also of note, I finally rebuilt my extendo in my blog. It...works, I guess, but feels odd to have it there. Regardless, all my mafia history is there for perusal if desired, and can also be accessed via the "Cantrip Heaven" link in my sig.
I've not been a fan of Cyan this game either, but uncountered Doc still carries some weight.
@MandersHex: you said your item was "taken" from you, yes? And not that you gave it to someone you didn't intend to give it to, yes? I'm not sure that AI's "re-direct" will explain how Cantrip would have ended up with it in that case. I think someone would have had to physically steal it from you. \
@Cantrip: how exactly did you end up with it? What's the "flavor" behind it?
Technolink would have been/is my #2 behind AI largely because of his terrible hammer yesterday. Manders saying he was terrible and town in his other game gives me slight pause, but only slight at this point.
I find it also interesting that we've apparently got either a Town poisoner or a SK running around.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Would anyone like to claim to have been "re-directed" last Night (which might, presumably, have come from AI). Cyan in particular I'm wondering about. Uncountered Doc carries weight, but it carries less and less the longer the scum are apparently happy to let the uncountered Doc live.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
I told Kraj that I wanted to protect Calvin last night, but at the end of the flavor scene, it was stated that I had watched the wrong room all night(it didn't say which room, however).
@MandersHex: you said your item was "taken" from you, yes? And not that you gave it to someone you didn't intend to give it to, yes? I'm not sure that AI's "re-direct" will explain how Cantrip would have ended up with it in that case. I think someone would have had to physically steal it from you. \
Someone did physically steal it from me. Flavor says I decided to send it to Cyan and got it all boxed up and ready to ship, then someone knocked me on the head. I woke up tied to a chair and someone behind me says that they've shipped it elsewhere and I am to let it be.
I was thinking maybe AI's redirector-ness was referring to him re-directing items and that he could have told the truth about his role, but not his alignment. However, if Cyan was re-directed, then I'm not sure who stole my item.
I told Kraj that I wanted to protect Calvin last night, but at the end of the flavor scene, it was stated that I had watched the wrong room all night(it didn't say which room, however).
Someone did physically steal it from me. Flavor says I decided to send it to Cyan and got it all boxed up and ready to ship, then someone knocked me on the head. I woke up tied to a chair and someone behind me says that they've shipped it elsewhere and I am to let it be.
I was thinking maybe AI's redirector-ness was referring to him re-directing items and that he could have told the truth about his role, but not his alignment. However, if Cyan was re-directed, then I'm not sure who stole my item.
And this sounds suspiciously like what AI claimed he could do (steal an item and send it elsewhere).
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
I've not been a fan of Cyan this game either, but uncountered Doc still carries some weight.
This is pretty much where I stand on him as well, but growing steadily less enamored with his claim. Especially given his position on the Infinis wagon (really didn't like how that wagon went down - I wish I was here to say something but I don't know if it would have helped). Also, the point MH brings up about Cyan's character bothers me. Not the gaming the mod bit about how the character is bad (because, well, that's gaming the mod) but because it turns out his character isn't a real "doc" but y'know a doctor of the arts. Seeing as this is the case, why would Cyan say "I'm the doc because I'm the doc" (or whatever his exact phrasing was)? This obviously wasn't something that Kraj put in his role, so it must have been an assumption which means that he has no flavor otherwise explaining his position as doc.
Hmm, I've just managed to convince myself that Cyan is just about lynchworthy - even considering his claim. If we have a doc they should definitely claim now - 1 for 1 trade especially with one scum down is great - but I'm more inclined to believe that there is no scum and Cyan just got extremely lucky.
I'd like to explore some other options first but now I wouldn't be suprised if my vote ended up on Cyan at some point during the day.
Technolink would have been/is my #2 behind AI largely because of his terrible hammer yesterday. Manders saying he was terrible and town in his other game gives me slight pause, but only slight at this point.
Yes, I hated Tekno's hammer as well. This post of his bothered me a lot also:
I've been waiting quite a while to see if something else would happen. It didn't.
If this is a mislynch, I know that AI is going to be the next target tomorrow and strongly urge Calvin to hand him the item in question since we all know who is going to get eaten tomorrow.
as it looked to me that he was trying to set up a mislynch on AI for today (yes, I actually thought that AI was still town before he showed up as dead scum :-/).
So I passed my item to Teknolink.
The post I mentioned looks a little better now that Ai flipped as scum but it's possible that Tekno and AI were scum together and they were bussing (maybe not the exactly correct term here) each other.
I find it also interesting that we've apparently got either a Town poisoner or a SK running around.
Is a poisner any different than a vig? Also I find it hard to imagine that there would be an SK in a mini.
I told Kraj that I wanted to protect Calvin last night, but at the end of the flavor scene, it was stated that I had watched the wrong room all night(it didn't say which room, however).
And why would scum redirect you and then not bother to kill me?
I think I might have been targeted by a townie, not a scum. I don't really know what to make of it.
It certainly looks like AI was telling the truth about his item-based ability, though, and I don't see how he would have performed 2 actions in the same night.
Is a poisner any different than a vig? Also I find it hard to imagine that there would be an SK in a mini.
What I meant was that it's interesting to me that a town vig. (if that's what it was) would use "poison" as their killing method. It's usually a scum killing method. But that's just flavor, I'm not saying I can't believe we'd have a Town vig. who would kill by using poison.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Isn't it possible that the poisoned kill was item-caused?
(shrug)
I suppose. I think it still requires someone to "use" the Item or give it to AI to kill him or whatever. So that would make the person effectively a vig. Possibly 1-shot.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
I am still catching up on the thread and I will post my thoughts on a couple of people within the next 12 hours.
That being said, I have something that I feel the need to get out as soon as possible. I was a one-shot vig, kpaca had already submitted a kill on Wrath_of_Dog. I hadn't read much of the thread yet, so I decided to trust his judgment. I have no idea why he chose Wrath_of_Dog, so I cannot defend his decision. I just wanted everyone to know that it appears scum did not make a kill last night.
Anyone want to claim killing AI? He was, like, scum you know.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
He saw Asian Invasion, aka Major Arnold Toht, Mafia Redirector lying dead in his bed. It looked like he was poisoned.
[/B]
Ok, so I researched AI's role, and Major Arnold Toht was the antagonist in Raiders of the Lost Ark. This lends credence to the meta-case on Cyan, I think. Also, when I researched my own character (just now) my flavor matches the characters' role in the movie he's in. Just thought I should share that.
I know meta is not the only thing one should rely on when deciding what to believe, but Cyan's play has not been the best. I think, while we discuss, I will [B]Unvote[/B]. I will support a Cyan or Teknolink lynch.
Of course, he could be telling the truth, which would most likely mean that the scum DID try to kill Calvin.
I'm confused how you get to this conclusion.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Ummm, he's dead, and I think you're scum and know that and are trying to use everyone's accusations from day one that you haven't been paying attention to make us think you're town. Die scum.
@Axel: It seems like a pretty obvious conclusion to me.
Walk me through it please, 'cause I don't see it. And I'm not dumb.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Length Disclaimer: Sorry this is long. I kept having to catch up when I previewed my post. Do try to read it, though, as I'm not going to spend time on something that I don't think is important.
Formatting Disclaimer: Something is wonky with the formatting of some of the quotes below. Anytime there's two quotes back to back (like Kraj's vote count below), they're from the same original post and weren't supposed to be separated, but I can't make them work.
Ok, so I did a lot of re-reading and evaluating and decided to give my item to Cyan last night. I know this is surprising, so I have also created my case on him.
This...is indeed surprising. I really feel that uncc'd doc is a bad direction to go. But let's look at your reasoning.
Quote from MH »
At first, I saw no problem with this because I am new to item games. However, seeing as how it has been the (pretty much) collected consensus that this item is detrimental to the town, I'm confused as to why this was not his first opinion of the item. I realize other people had already posted this theory, but this is just the first thing.
I will go on record as not recognizing the potential downside immediately, either. It felt to be obviously something that a) needed to be confirmed, and b) tracked, but not necessarily dangerous.
Quote from MH »
I researched Elsa Schneider (no big he was wrong on her name) because I didn't remember her from the movies. She is indeed a doctor (of art, she's an art professor) but she is also referred to as a "femme fatale". She was in The Last Crusade and, if I remember correctly, was the antagonist. This worries me, based on my own role.
1) This is gaming the mod. 2) The name thing is actually interesting to me. I can't speak for others, but when I claim, I try to be as accurate as possible (with my PR open in another window, for comparison) in the details. I can't imagine that Kraj would get his details wrong (he's just not that kind of person), so either Cyan was lazy or falseclaiming the name. Of course, if Cyan was falseclaiming, I would think he would be especially careful to get the details right, so I think it's just laziness. I believe that Cyan is Dr. Elsa Schneider. More on whether I believe the doc claim below.
Quote from MH »
Ok, so here:
he finally realizes that there was no case on kpaca to be made, other than meta. Interesting to say the least.
I would normally find it null, but from the limited exposure that I've had to Cyan's playstyle, he doesn't seem to be the kind to toss out the accusations without something to go on.
Quote from MH »
Here is when he changes his stance (almost immediately) onto Guardman, who seems town to me, as I've already stated.
It's interesting that he did not vote Guardman at this time.
I'm not sure on Guardman's alignment, but I think that normally Cyan latches on to his suspect and bulldogs them to death (when possible), or switches quickly to the next target (when not). I'm more concerned with Cyan's kpaca-wagon-not-wagon thing than him immediately going to Guardman.
Quote from MH »
This I see as him trying to get on the good side of someone he stated is town and now, since Axelrod replaced, seems town to me, too.
How?
Quote from MH »
Ok, so in the spoiler is his case on Guardman. Upon reading it, it seems a little flimsy to me. First of all, he posted it in a way that has already been stated in this thread to be anti-town. It is unhelpful for us to keep going back and forth finding Guardman's posts, especially when it is not hard at all to link said post to the post numbers.
This feels like a nitpick. PBPA posting style is a preference thing, and while I dislike how some people do it, I'm not going to think them scummy for doing it the least helpful way. Just lazy.
Quote from MH »
Ok, first of all, Guardman did not say jordman was jumping from wagon to wagon. He said, in not so many words, that jordman is jumping from person to person trying to start a wagon. Awful misrep, Cyan.
Meh.
Quote from MH »
I've got a question for you. Why, as town doc, would you claim due to a wagon based solely on meta? Town doc is usually the first PR killed due to early claims, and, no matter what you say, town doc can be extremely helpful. To reiterate my point, I think it's scummier that Cyan was willing to claim that than it is for kpaca to refuse to claim for no good reason.
That's a pretty bold statement. I found kpaca's move rather ballsy, and didn't actually expect him to get his wagon reversed because of it. You realize that what you're saying here is that Cyan is scummy for conforming to the normal expectations of the game, right?
Quote from MH »
Why did you even include these? You're trying to make him seem scummy. I don't include pro-town posts in my PBPAs, although it is pretty understood that there are probably some somewhere.
I think this is obvious, but I'll let Cyan comment.
Quote from MH »
I would like to point out that Teknolink also unvoted jordman when he was suspended, but your own double standard is noted.
This is interesting, though.
Quote from MH »
tl;dr - I am not convinced of Guardman's scumminess after reading Cyan's PBPA, but I feel better about Cyan's. Ok, so the infamous mistake:
I still say that the reason the scum NK was on his mind is because he was thinking about who he would kill.
I think it's just as likely that it was an honest slip, but I suppose if enough tiny slips add up and all point in the same direction, they have the potential to form something significant.
Quote from MH »
The most damning pieces of evidence against Cyan is the fact that he faults Guardman on his "double standard" yet has one himself, and the fact that he didn't respond, or even mention, whether or not Infinis was known for gambits such as the one he was accused for. The Infinis thing has me pretty convinced, though. As town, you should provide the benefit of the doubt if something the person under fire says strikes home. Un-cc'd doc? I think not. I think, if we have a real doc, they've decided to keep quiet. Hopefully they will decide to come out after this. Vote:Cyan
I don't see this as enough to vote an un-cc'd doc...but it's enough to raise an eyebrow or two.
Quote from MH »
Just so you all know, the only other person I considered giving my item to was Teknolink because that hammer was awful, and his play's been terrible. But, his play was terrible in Normalville, too, and he was town.
Tbh, I was thinking that Teknolink was town (and a scum's dream come true), since it would be a rather bad play for scum to hammer like that...but that's WIFOM, and knowing that meta exists to indicate that he might make bad plays on a regular basis...I'm undecided about TL at the moment.
Arrgh! Stupid girls and their purple fonts! I multi-quoted from another window to get the rest of this, and when I paste it in, it all comes out purple and in Century Gothic. So I changed it all back to black and Verdana (even Axel's, Cyan's, etc), so I apologize, but MH's posts won't be in purple.
(MH, I didn't really mean that stupid girls comment...just frustrated by a combination of technical issues and my own inflexibility to roll with the flow. Sorry.)
@Cantrip: how exactly did you end up with it? What's the "flavor" behind it?
Not much. I woke to find a "special delivery" at my door. No notes on wrapping, notes attached, etc.
Quote from Axel »
I find it also interesting that we've apparently got either a Town poisoner or a SK running around.
While a SK in a mini seems a little off, I would normally believe it over a town poisoner...however, with items in a game about an archaeologist who hunts down items of power and is threatened multiple times with poison (darts, mind-controlling substances, the poison that he scrambles through the ice for the antidote for, to name a few off the top of my head), a vig (possibly one-shot) based on control of an item seems more likely than a SK.
I told Kraj that I wanted to protect Calvin last night, but at the end of the flavor scene, it was stated that I had watched the wrong room all night(it didn't say which room, however).
This seems mighty convenient for a questionable doc to claim when a) nothing happened to his "claimed" target, and b) people are fishing for an additional redirect claim. I find this suspicious.
This is pretty much where I stand on him as well, but growing steadily less enamored with his claim. Especially given his position on the Infinis wagon (really didn't like how that wagon went down - I wish I was here to say something but I don't know if it would have helped). Also, the point MH brings up about Cyan's character bothers me. Not the gaming the mod bit about how the character is bad (because, well, that's gaming the mod) but because it turns out his character isn't a real "doc" but y'know a doctor of the arts. Seeing as this is the case, why would Cyan say "I'm the doc because I'm the doc" (or whatever his exact phrasing was)? This obviously wasn't something that Kraj put in his role, so it must have been an assumption which means that he has no flavor otherwise explaining his position as doc.
Tbh, I think you're BOTH gaming the mod, but while I agree that MH's modgaming isn't reliable (because modgaming is common, therefore, the WIFOM rules for gaming the mod state that a mod could quite easily assemble a scum-team of two "bad guys" and one "good guy"), your modgaming seems possibly revealing, as Kraj doesn't seem like the kind of mod to leave that kind of detail omitted. (I don't, however, find the stretch of "Doctor of the Arts" to "Doc" to be much of a stretch.)
As for flavorgaming, if I believed in its validity and that "good guys" in the stories meant "town" in the game, I'd actually see her as more of a neutral, as she wasn't really a bad guy, just completely out for herself and her quest for fame. With that in mind, her role would become more of a SK or survivor. Either of those, I would think, would make falseclaiming doc a really odd choice.
Quote from Calvin »
Hmm, I've just managed to convince myself that Cyan is just about lynchworthy - even considering his claim. If we have a doc they should definitely claim now - 1 for 1 trade especially with one scum down is great - but I'm more inclined to believe that there is no scum and Cyan just got extremely lucky.
I'd like to explore some other options first but now I wouldn't be suprised if my vote ended up on Cyan at some point during the day.
I think I'm on a similar wavelength. MH and Calvin are both among the towniest players imo, and both seem to be more or less level-headed, generally, in reasoning.
Quote from Calvin »
And why would scum redirect you and then not bother to kill me?
Makes sense to me if they didn't particularly care about your item (or decided not to focus on it at this time) OR if Cyan's not really the doc.
I was thinking maybe AI's redirector-ness was referring to him re-directing items and that he could have told the truth about his role, but not his alignment. However, if Cyan was re-directed, then I'm not sure who stole my item.
It certainly looks like AI was telling the truth about his item-based ability, though, and I don't see how he would have performed 2 actions in the same night.
Is Cyan trying to "explain" discrepancies. Cyan, what makes you think you were targeted by a townie?
I am still catching up on the thread and I will post my thoughts on a couple of people within the next 12 hours.
That being said, I have something that I feel the need to get out as soon as possible. I was a one-shot vig, kpaca had already submitted a kill on Wrath_of_Dog. I hadn't read much of the thread yet, so I decided to trust his judgment. I have no idea why he chose Wrath_of_Dog, so I cannot defend his decision. I just wanted everyone to know that it appears scum did not make a kill last night.
The claim itself feels believable. 1-shot vig feels like the kind of thing that kpaca would stubbornly protect the way he did, figuring that his lynch wouldn't be the end of the world. What I don't believe is that he would go after WoD instead of Cyan, AI, or someone completely else. At no time did kpaca express suspicion of WoD or mention that he disliked the low content. Why would he use up a vig on him? Not buying it. In fact, I'm tempted to vote you for it, but, for obvious reasons, I won't.
Mandershex, you're quite eager to jump on me now, as if you've been wanting to do that all game and finally found a real reason to do so. Interesting.
I tend to agree with MH. You're painting yourself pretty poorly if you expect us to believe that you saw the thread was up and posted before a) reading Kraj's morning post, which will OBVIOUSLY have vital information in it, which you'd be an idiot not to read or b) seeing that there was another 2-3 pages of posts already. I might go for it if Kraj's post was at a page break...but it's not. So why did you vote a dead player?
Yeah I forgot about the part where my protection got moved away from Calvin. Nevermind.
Um, whut? How would you forget this?
Right now I've got three people at the top of my scumlist, and none of them are making any sense. Cyan, red_Omega, Tekno, provide clarity. Anyone who hasn't posted today: come back soon.
Nice use of charged language to dismiss everything I say. I also like the two modifiers to hedge your bets "first (or one of them)" and "serious" suspicion.
But this is a plainly false statement:
Cantrip: 127, 143, 234, etc etc
Guardman: 249, 280, 308, etc, etc
jordman but not Axelrod: 142, 182
Cyan: 427
All suspicious of me way before AI and since we're out of the random phase, serious suspicion is a null modifier like "uniquer" and "more random"
Since you're the doc at the setup. It's an easy hop on my wagon for scum (re: AI) He was counting on WoD and Guardman's and Cantrip's vote for the mislynch.
Follow the trail:
Cantrip and I battle it out. Cantrip's already voted me once not a stretch for a second vote on my wagon.
You're vote is assured. Since you thought I was scum buddies with guardman. You rarely if ever change your mind this far into a game You vote on my wagon was a 90% lock. MH is new and may not be being coached, but I predicted your play, wrong about Cantrip but not about you.
MH is PO'd because she believe's I ad hommed her and not her play (I separate the two). I'll have to spend some time responding to her case more.
Guardman and I "seem" to have beef from SoT mafia. (He wasn't confirmed vig and if he didnt want to eliminate a claimed neutral because he was scared then so be it. he was better off dead) This is a better than 50% chance guardman votes me.
WoD's dismissed my vote justification post with a single word, which I've already touched upon. He's probably going to vote me or AI. That's good odds for scum.
That's six votes, plus his. Mislynch. Even if one or two of these votes don't come through for him, we haven't heard from Tekno, Calvin, or Kpaca. That's good odds one of them votes me, barring that they are scum buddies with AI, which I can't exclude, but I highly doubt Calvin and kpaca are scum. Tek needs a reread.
And you're right defeatism achieves nothing. If I'm lynched compare your, kpaca's, and my wagon, I'm sure you'll flush some scum out.
12-11? I'm losing track
I was neutral on AK, but since you were poised to jump on my wagon once the votes started landing, in a somewhat dodgy manner, plus your latest responses - I'm happy with a Unvote: Vote Infinis.
So it's my fault that you don't read my posts? I don't like that logic.
This made me chuckle.
Actually, these players are voting against you because of your scummy behavior. I doubt MH is voting you because you insulted her or that Guardman is that petty, though personally I believe Guardman's bussing you.
This goes without saying. The odds that there are no scum on a L-1 wagon Day One are infinitesimal.
I do not like that you hammered before kpaca could check in. I'm not worried about Infinis's alignment though, he's definitely going to flip scum.
Also of note is how no one waited for the case against me or a defense thereof. It quickly went from "He's being falsely emotive and insulting" to "I don't like your posts", no cases, just attacks, and now the mislynch.
@kpaca As I came to see with Seppel, I know see with you. Art of War indeed.
@Cyan I wish you'ld given me the benefit of the doubt you gave kpaca or even looked at my wagon. Note the wagon went through as I predicted in my last post.
@kraj the game may not be a broken setup, but what you did is plain evil (or chance is a cruel mistress)
@asian Invasion Bussing the hammer?
12-11? I'm losing track
No you intentionally left wiggle room, to seem townie. With three claims, (two items and one ability), everyone knows you contradicted yourself scum but left a sliver of doubt to escape the consequences of horrible gaming the mod, the worst I've seen.
12-11? I'm losing track
You're not the best mathematician.
Calvin's item.
MH's item.
Cyan's claim.
kpaca's unspoken claim.
My claim.
That's three PRs, two items. kpaca may or may not have an item as well, but at any rate even if I were wrong about how valid your claim was, it doesn't nullify your other scum tells.
I hope you learned something from this game. Stop being emotional scum, it's terribly obvious.
I'm town. I played the way I did because cold hard logic achieves nothing when people don't consider both sides of a case.
GO TOWN!
12-11? I'm losing track
Personally, I agree with TeknoLink that, if Infinis comes up town, it makes me very leery of AI. That being said, I have a good idea of who I plan to give my item to, so would like to be left alone tonight. I will be giving it to the person I think is scummiest. I agree that it should be removed from the game.
Tired of corporate corruption ruining your favorite MtG site?
Come join ours!!
We even have Mafia!!
True dat. And I recognize discussion where discussion fits as being logical...but I'm awfully glad that you came back to it outside the PBPA. If you hadn't, I would have been extremely upset.
Calvin gives the item away, leaving you out of it. I admit that your plan has a better chance of success, since your ability may occur prior to the NK, but I still don't fully trust you, and I do trust Calvin.
You mean my own? Sure:
TeknoLink
AI
WrathOfDog
Infinis
TL;DB.
Fair 'nuff, but you did identify it as a reason.
What about an immature experienced town?
Where do I imply that? I said it was surprising that the wagon was on Infinis, and maybe that meant something, but point out that implication you mention.
Sorry...it took me several pages to recognize AK as female, and then you replaced, and ... yeah, sorry.
*sigh* Faced with a building wagon, and this is all you want to talk about? It feels like you're returning to harp on the only argument you feel you have any control over...and it's not really a relevant one.
More insults. Lovely.
What? Seriously? Now we're buddy-buddy, and I get to direct your actions?
Thanks for the content. Nice to know you're still lurking.
Oh. My. Goodness. Seriously? I'm surprised you didn't quote some of the random-phase votes against you. Yes, everyone's going to have suspicion leveled against them throughout the game, and you're certainly no exception. Oddly, your obstinate efforts in this actually feel townish. :/
You suddenly shot to the top of my scumlist. All the info that's being bandied about and you decide to HAMMER off of MODGAMING?!? Before all members of the game could chime in??? What the flip is the matter with you? You'd better hope that Infinis is scum, because if he's not, you're in trouble, my friend. Even if he is, I'm concerned by this move. It feels flighty.
All these little postscripts don't feel like scum dying. I sure hope we're on solid ground with this lynch.
Meant to respond to this, too. I don't believe AI can steal from more than one person.
I think both Calvin and MH should distribute the items as they see fit. I trust both of them far more than I trust AI.
Feel free to continue posting while I put a lynch scene together.
Final Vote Count:
Infinis - 7 (Asian Invasion, Cyan, Guardman, MandersHex, TeknoLink, Wrath of DoG)
Asian Invasion - 4 (Axelrod, Cantripmancer, Infinis, kpaca)
Not voting: Calvin, Silent Prophet
Current New Favorite Person™: Mallory Archer
She knows why.
Could you tell us Infinis' alignment so that we can discuss that while we wait?
Tired of corporate corruption ruining your favorite MtG site?
Come join ours!!
We even have Mafia!!
Morning. His head is ringing.
No, the phone is ringing. He ignores it.
No, his head and the phone are ringing. Maybe answering the phone will make the head better.
It doesn’t.
“Indy?”
“Marcus.”
“You need to come to the Museum, Indy. There’s something you need to see.”
...Another swirl of irridescent white dissolves...
Dining al fresco at twilight, at their favorite cafe in Bedford.
"I still can't believe how you pulled that off, Indy. Even after all these years you never fail to amaze me, my friend."
"You're too modest, Marcus. I never would have pieced it together if you hadn't uncovered that vital clue."
"I would say 'fell on' is a more appropriate descriptor than 'uncovered', wouldn't you?"
They shared a laugh...
The light churned.
They shared a laugh. A last laugh.
The doctor arrived to take Marcus to surgical prep. His chances weren't good. The tumor was in a very difficult place and most people didn't wake up from this surgery. But Marcus was no quitter, and his brain was worth keeping around a little longer.
Just a little longer...
His vision blurred, but not from the strange mist this time. As he was wheeled away, Marcus' smile dissolved in tiny oceans and ran down Indy's cheek. There was nothing he could do to save his friend.
Infinis has been lynched. He was Dr. Marcus Brody, Vanilla Town.
It is now Night 1. Actions are due by 12 noon central time, Friday the 12th. If you have an action you wish not to use or an item you do not intent to pass, please let me know.
Current New Favorite Person™: Mallory Archer
She knows why.
Current New Favorite Person™: Mallory Archer
She knows why.
Current New Favorite Person™: Mallory Archer
She knows why.
He saw Asian Invasion, aka Major Arnold Toht, Mafia Redirector lying dead in his bed. It looked like he was poisoned.
He also saw Wrath_of_DoG, who he recognized as Kazim, Vanilla Townie, shot in the chest.
It is now day 2.
With 9 alive it's 5 to lynch.
Current New Favorite Person™: Mallory Archer
She knows why.
Anyway, one of Cyan's first posts is this:
At first, I saw no problem with this because I am new to item games. However, seeing as how it has been the (pretty much) collected consensus that this item is detrimental to the town, I'm confused as to why this was not his first opinion of the item. I realize other people had already posted this theory, but this is just the first thing.
We all know Cyan was pretty non-existent in the beginning of the game. Here:
he first offers a case on kpaca.
Here:
He again states it'll likely be him putting forth a case on kpaca.
Here is his flavor for being doc:
I researched Elsa Schneider (no big he was wrong on her name) because I didn't remember her from the movies. She is indeed a doctor (of art, she's an art professor) but she is also referred to as a "femme fatale". She was in The Last Crusade and, if I remember correctly, was the antagonist. This worries me, based on my own role.
Ok, so here:
he finally realizes that there was no case on kpaca to be made, other than meta. Interesting to say the least.
Here is when he changes his stance (almost immediately) onto Guardman, who seems town to me, as I've already stated.
It's interesting that he did not vote Guardman at this time.
This I see as him trying to get on the good side of someone he stated is town and now, since Axelrod replaced, seems town to me, too.
Ok, so in the spoiler is his case on Guardman. Upon reading it, it seems a little flimsy to me. First of all, he posted it in a way that has already been stated in this thread to be anti-town. It is unhelpful for us to keep going back and forth finding Guardman's posts, especially when it is not hard at all to link said post to the post numbers.
Ok, first of all, Guardman did not say jordman was jumping from wagon to wagon. He said, in not so many words, that jordman is jumping from person to person trying to start a wagon. Awful misrep, Cyan.
I don't see why he needs to state specifically what about the case he liked, but moving on...
I, personally, would find it pretty scummy if he hadn't unvoted someone who could no longer defend themselves. As he stated, he wanted to look elsewhere for now, and I agree with that.
I've got a question for you. Why, as town doc, would you claim due to a wagon based solely on meta? Town doc is usually the first PR killed due to early claims, and, no matter what you say, town doc can be extremely helpful. To reiterate my point, I think it's scummier that Cyan was willing to claim that than it is for kpaca to refuse to claim for no good reason.
Why did you even include these? You're trying to make him seem scummy. I don't include pro-town posts in my PBPAs, although it is pretty understood that there are probably some somewhere.
I would like to point out that Teknolink also unvoted jordman when he was suspended, but your own double standard is noted.
Ok, so the infamous mistake:
I still say that the reason the scum NK was on his mind is because he was thinking about who he would kill.
I have another question for you, now that Infinis has come up town. Is he known for making gambits like the one we accused him of? Why didn't you answer that before he was lynched? He was counting on you to help him make his case, and you didn't. (Granted, he was counting on kpaca, too, but kpaca obviously had issues and couldn't post)
The most damning pieces of evidence against Cyan is the fact that he faults Guardman on his "double standard" yet has one himself, and the fact that he didn't respond, or even mention, whether or not Infinis was known for gambits such as the one he was accused for. The Infinis thing has me pretty convinced, though. As town, you should provide the benefit of the doubt if something the person under fire says strikes home. Un-cc'd doc? I think not. I think, if we have a real doc, they've decided to keep quiet. Hopefully they will decide to come out after this. Vote:Cyan
Just so you all know, the only other person I considered giving my item to was Teknolink because that hammer was awful, and his play's been terrible. But, his play was terrible in Normalville, too, and he was town.
However, I was unable to give my item to Cyan because it was taken from me. Given the actions of last night, it's seems to me that AI took my item, but was killed by the vig (assuming we have one, of course)
Tired of corporate corruption ruining your favorite MtG site?
Come join ours!!
We even have Mafia!!
Tired of corporate corruption ruining your favorite MtG site?
Come join ours!!
We even have Mafia!!
Also, Cantripmancer informed me he may be away until the 15th.
Current New Favorite Person™: Mallory Archer
She knows why.
1) MH, there are interesting points to your Cyan case, but by and large, I still fear lynching an un-cc'd doc. I will go into more detail hopefully before the end of the day.
2) Your lovely item (which I can confirm works as you indicated -- possessor's vote is doubled, but puts the possessor at -2 to their own lynch) was given to me (I would think AI's redirection likely). As proof: Vote: Cantripmancer.
Kraj, I very specifically read the rules and didn't see anything discouraging self-votes, so I hope this isn't a problem. Also: Mod: Votecount, please.
@MandersHex: you said your item was "taken" from you, yes? And not that you gave it to someone you didn't intend to give it to, yes? I'm not sure that AI's "re-direct" will explain how Cantrip would have ended up with it in that case. I think someone would have had to physically steal it from you. \
@Cantrip: how exactly did you end up with it? What's the "flavor" behind it?
Technolink would have been/is my #2 behind AI largely because of his terrible hammer yesterday. Manders saying he was terrible and town in his other game gives me slight pause, but only slight at this point.
I find it also interesting that we've apparently got either a Town poisoner or a SK running around.
I told Kraj that I wanted to protect Calvin last night, but at the end of the flavor scene, it was stated that I had watched the wrong room all night(it didn't say which room, however).
Someone did physically steal it from me. Flavor says I decided to send it to Cyan and got it all boxed up and ready to ship, then someone knocked me on the head. I woke up tied to a chair and someone behind me says that they've shipped it elsewhere and I am to let it be.
I was thinking maybe AI's redirector-ness was referring to him re-directing items and that he could have told the truth about his role, but not his alignment. However, if Cyan was re-directed, then I'm not sure who stole my item.
Tired of corporate corruption ruining your favorite MtG site?
Come join ours!!
We even have Mafia!!
All right, that makes a certain amount of sense.
And this sounds suspiciously like what AI claimed he could do (steal an item and send it elsewhere).
This is pretty much where I stand on him as well, but growing steadily less enamored with his claim. Especially given his position on the Infinis wagon (really didn't like how that wagon went down - I wish I was here to say something but I don't know if it would have helped). Also, the point MH brings up about Cyan's character bothers me. Not the gaming the mod bit about how the character is bad (because, well, that's gaming the mod) but because it turns out his character isn't a real "doc" but y'know a doctor of the arts. Seeing as this is the case, why would Cyan say "I'm the doc because I'm the doc" (or whatever his exact phrasing was)? This obviously wasn't something that Kraj put in his role, so it must have been an assumption which means that he has no flavor otherwise explaining his position as doc.
Hmm, I've just managed to convince myself that Cyan is just about lynchworthy - even considering his claim. If we have a doc they should definitely claim now - 1 for 1 trade especially with one scum down is great - but I'm more inclined to believe that there is no scum and Cyan just got extremely lucky.
I'd like to explore some other options first but now I wouldn't be suprised if my vote ended up on Cyan at some point during the day.
Yes, I hated Tekno's hammer as well. This post of his bothered me a lot also:
as it looked to me that he was trying to set up a mislynch on AI for today (yes, I actually thought that AI was still town before he showed up as dead scum :-/).
So I passed my item to Teknolink.
The post I mentioned looks a little better now that Ai flipped as scum but it's possible that Tekno and AI were scum together and they were bussing (maybe not the exactly correct term here) each other.
Is a poisner any different than a vig? Also I find it hard to imagine that there would be an SK in a mini.
And why would scum redirect you and then not bother to kill me?
Basic #10-Town-Win
Sword of Truth-Town-Loss
LOTR II - Town-Loss
Indiana Jones - Town-Win
Manipulator - Town-Win
The Asphodel Meadows - Town-Win
Highlander - Neutral Survivor - Win
Tired of corporate corruption ruining your favorite MtG site?
Come join ours!!
We even have Mafia!!
It certainly looks like AI was telling the truth about his item-based ability, though, and I don't see how he would have performed 2 actions in the same night.
Cantripmancer - 2 (Cantripmancer)
Cyan - 1 (MandersHex)
Not Voting: Everyone else
With 9 alive it's 5 to lynch.
Current New Favorite Person™: Mallory Archer
She knows why.
What I meant was that it's interesting to me that a town vig. (if that's what it was) would use "poison" as their killing method. It's usually a scum killing method. But that's just flavor, I'm not saying I can't believe we'd have a Town vig. who would kill by using poison.
Tired of corporate corruption ruining your favorite MtG site?
Come join ours!!
We even have Mafia!!
(shrug)
I suppose. I think it still requires someone to "use" the Item or give it to AI to kill him or whatever. So that would make the person effectively a vig. Possibly 1-shot.
That being said, I have something that I feel the need to get out as soon as possible. I was a one-shot vig, kpaca had already submitted a kill on Wrath_of_Dog. I hadn't read much of the thread yet, so I decided to trust his judgment. I have no idea why he chose Wrath_of_Dog, so I cannot defend his decision. I just wanted everyone to know that it appears scum did not make a kill last night.
smoke_Killah
I'm more inclined to believe that the scum are responsible for both kills, and RO is just trying to distance himself from the scum kill.
Of course, he could be telling the truth, which would most likely mean that the scum DID try to kill Calvin.
Anyone want to claim killing AI? He was, like, scum you know.
Ok, so I researched AI's role, and Major Arnold Toht was the antagonist in Raiders of the Lost Ark. This lends credence to the meta-case on Cyan, I think. Also, when I researched my own character (just now) my flavor matches the characters' role in the movie he's in. Just thought I should share that.
I know meta is not the only thing one should rely on when deciding what to believe, but Cyan's play has not been the best. I think, while we discuss, I will [B]Unvote[/B]. I will support a Cyan or Teknolink lynch.
Tired of corporate corruption ruining your favorite MtG site?
Come join ours!!
We even have Mafia!!
I'm confused how you get to this conclusion.
Ummm, he's dead, and I think you're scum and know that and are trying to use everyone's accusations from day one that you haven't been paying attention to make us think you're town. Die scum.
Vote: Teknolink
Tired of corporate corruption ruining your favorite MtG site?
Come join ours!!
We even have Mafia!!
Tired of corporate corruption ruining your favorite MtG site?
Come join ours!!
We even have Mafia!!
@Axel: It seems like a pretty obvious conclusion to me.
Tired of corporate corruption ruining your favorite MtG site?
Come join ours!!
We even have Mafia!!
Any reasons, or should I just trust your judgment on that?
Tired of corporate corruption ruining your favorite MtG site?
Come join ours!!
We even have Mafia!!
Walk me through it please, 'cause I don't see it. And I'm not dumb.
Yeah I forgot about the part where my protection got moved away from Calvin. Nevermind.
Formatting Disclaimer: Something is wonky with the formatting of some of the quotes below. Anytime there's two quotes back to back (like Kraj's vote count below), they're from the same original post and weren't supposed to be separated, but I can't make them work.
Thank you. Unvote.
This...is indeed surprising. I really feel that uncc'd doc is a bad direction to go. But let's look at your reasoning.
I will go on record as not recognizing the potential downside immediately, either. It felt to be obviously something that a) needed to be confirmed, and b) tracked, but not necessarily dangerous.
1) This is gaming the mod. 2) The name thing is actually interesting to me. I can't speak for others, but when I claim, I try to be as accurate as possible (with my PR open in another window, for comparison) in the details. I can't imagine that Kraj would get his details wrong (he's just not that kind of person), so either Cyan was lazy or falseclaiming the name. Of course, if Cyan was falseclaiming, I would think he would be especially careful to get the details right, so I think it's just laziness. I believe that Cyan is Dr. Elsa Schneider. More on whether I believe the doc claim below.I would normally find it null, but from the limited exposure that I've had to Cyan's playstyle, he doesn't seem to be the kind to toss out the accusations without something to go on.
I'm not sure on Guardman's alignment, but I think that normally Cyan latches on to his suspect and bulldogs them to death (when possible), or switches quickly to the next target (when not). I'm more concerned with Cyan's kpaca-wagon-not-wagon thing than him immediately going to Guardman.
How?
This feels like a nitpick. PBPA posting style is a preference thing, and while I dislike how some people do it, I'm not going to think them scummy for doing it the least helpful way. Just lazy.Meh.That's a pretty bold statement. I found kpaca's move rather ballsy, and didn't actually expect him to get his wagon reversed because of it. You realize that what you're saying here is that Cyan is scummy for conforming to the normal expectations of the game, right?I think this is obvious, but I'll let Cyan comment.This is interesting, though.I think it's just as likely that it was an honest slip, but I suppose if enough tiny slips add up and all point in the same direction, they have the potential to form something significant.I don't see this as enough to vote an un-cc'd doc...but it's enough to raise an eyebrow or two.Tbh, I was thinking that Teknolink was town (and a scum's dream come true), since it would be a rather bad play for scum to hammer like that...but that's WIFOM, and knowing that meta exists to indicate that he might make bad plays on a regular basis...I'm undecided about TL at the moment.
Arrgh! Stupid girls and their purple fonts! I multi-quoted from another window to get the rest of this, and when I paste it in, it all comes out purple and in Century Gothic. So I changed it all back to black and Verdana (even Axel's, Cyan's, etc), so I apologize, but MH's posts won't be in purple.
(MH, I didn't really mean that stupid girls comment...just frustrated by a combination of technical issues and my own inflexibility to roll with the flow. Sorry.)
Not much. I woke to find a "special delivery" at my door. No notes on wrapping, notes attached, etc.
While a SK in a mini seems a little off, I would normally believe it over a town poisoner...however, with items in a game about an archaeologist who hunts down items of power and is threatened multiple times with poison (darts, mind-controlling substances, the poison that he scrambles through the ice for the antidote for, to name a few off the top of my head), a vig (possibly one-shot) based on control of an item seems more likely than a SK.
This seems mighty convenient for a questionable doc to claim when a) nothing happened to his "claimed" target, and b) people are fishing for an additional redirect claim. I find this suspicious.
Tbh, I think you're BOTH gaming the mod, but while I agree that MH's modgaming isn't reliable (because modgaming is common, therefore, the WIFOM rules for gaming the mod state that a mod could quite easily assemble a scum-team of two "bad guys" and one "good guy"), your modgaming seems possibly revealing, as Kraj doesn't seem like the kind of mod to leave that kind of detail omitted. (I don't, however, find the stretch of "Doctor of the Arts" to "Doc" to be much of a stretch.)
As for flavorgaming, if I believed in its validity and that "good guys" in the stories meant "town" in the game, I'd actually see her as more of a neutral, as she wasn't really a bad guy, just completely out for herself and her quest for fame. With that in mind, her role would become more of a SK or survivor. Either of those, I would think, would make falseclaiming doc a really odd choice.
I think I'm on a similar wavelength. MH and Calvin are both among the towniest players imo, and both seem to be more or less level-headed, generally, in reasoning.
Makes sense to me if they didn't particularly care about your item (or decided not to focus on it at this time) OR if Cyan's not really the doc.
I think...
This. I think AI is the only redirector, and this...
Is Cyan trying to "explain" discrepancies. Cyan, what makes you think you were targeted by a townie?
The claim itself feels believable. 1-shot vig feels like the kind of thing that kpaca would stubbornly protect the way he did, figuring that his lynch wouldn't be the end of the world. What I don't believe is that he would go after WoD instead of Cyan, AI, or someone completely else. At no time did kpaca express suspicion of WoD or mention that he disliked the low content. Why would he use up a vig on him? Not buying it. In fact, I'm tempted to vote you for it, but, for obvious reasons, I won't.
Wafflewafflewaffle...possible bus?
Me too.
I tend to agree with MH. You're painting yourself pretty poorly if you expect us to believe that you saw the thread was up and posted before a) reading Kraj's morning post, which will OBVIOUSLY have vital information in it, which you'd be an idiot not to read or b) seeing that there was another 2-3 pages of posts already. I might go for it if Kraj's post was at a page break...but it's not. So why did you vote a dead player?
Yup, gonna reinforce the request for you to provide reasoning on this.
Um, whut? How would you forget this?
Right now I've got three people at the top of my scumlist, and none of them are making any sense. Cyan, red_Omega, Tekno, provide clarity. Anyone who hasn't posted today: come back soon.