I wouldn't say dead. As long as we continue to change with the meta, Old Mythic will still as strong as Sovereign Mythic. I still think that Old Mythic is better than Sovereign Mythic, but I haven't had as much time to test out Sovereign Mythic yet (two or three games that were very casual). So, I'll test them both out and make my decision based on the best possible matchup for however the meta has shifted.
Path to Exile becoming a 4x is turning into a serious, serious issue for the conscription build.
I've been trying a conscription build that runs 4x Deft duelist as the main target for conscription. Most instant speed removal can't deal with it. Volcanic Fallout is the only one I can think of that would be online fast enough to stop a T3 or T4 duelist getting a hit in with conscription.
God hand would go:
T1 land, Noble Hiearch
T2 Cobra, land, Deft Duelist
T3 Fetchland, Soverign, swing for 14 with Duelist and Conscription (+2/+2 exalted bonus)
Average would be more like T5, still difficult for most decks to deal with.
WUR Planeswalker decks simply destroys us, playing some Doj / Coup (2 / 2 usually), 3-4 Path, 2-3 O-ring, 12 Planeswalkers (6 of them kill us, Ajani / Gideon) and the others remove our walkers) .. --> rlly rlly bad matchup, don't see a solution for that right now
so the WUR mu is horrible, vs Mono red it's quite okay even though they can race us with that sick Devastating Summons + Goblin Bushwacker thingy.. UW control is average, Jund quite okay but not that easy..
--> imo it's not viable to play Bant right now.. meta shifting from Jund only to basically Control / Planeswalkers, Path is pain ..
well feel free to correct me hopefully i am wrong..
I have tested Sovereign Mythic vs. USA and it is a pretty bad matchup. I haven't had the chance to test out Traditional Mythic, but I'd imagine it has a much better matchup with Thornlings and Dauntless Escorts main.
I was thinking about taking out the RWM and a few BSA for +4 Dauntless Escort and +2 Thornling mainboard if this USA deck becomes more popular. Anyone tested this out?
I just play some FNM so seeing something as expensive as USA isn't going to be too big of a problem for me, and I've only seen one other Mythic.
Even in the new meta, cutting Rhox War Monk is not a good idea. If you're looking to make room for Dauntless Escorts, find it elsewhere (Rafiq and Finest Hour in particular).
Midrange might be an option, but until it is proven as a competitive option let's keep discussion of it to the Developing forums.
I have tested Sovereign Mythic vs. USA and it is a pretty bad matchup. I haven't had the chance to test out Traditional Mythic, but I'd imagine it has a much better matchup with Thornlings and Dauntless Escorts main.
You would think so, but those flashfreezes and paths post-SB HURT. (And if they bring in Negate for your planeswalkers, even more so.
Thornling is not the proper target for Conscription. Anybody who has tested this out must have realized that by now.
The best possible play is a Conscription on a Bird of Paradise, hands down.
The idea here is to diversify your threats with Conscription, so your opponent is forced to waste removal on it or lose to it. If they don't lose to your Conscripted Bird, they will shortly be killed by your Baneslayer or Thornling (without the Conscription).
I wasn't saying that Thornling was my target for EC, just that I have available mana to cast and protect my Thornling. I agree that birds is the right target for EC. I'm hoping to draw out the removal, for example, PoE on my Thornling so my EC-BoP remains in play once I get it on it.
You would think so, but those flashfreezes and paths post-SB HURT. (And if they bring in Negate for your planeswalkers, even more so.
Negate really doesn't affect my maindeck matchup very much, as I only run Finest Hours main. Post side, Negate would help them out, but even then it would be just to counter my counters. It is a tough matchup, but as with Tapout, it is a winable one if we play smart.
not only out of the colors, but out of the question. maybe some jank 4 color deck using soverigns with him, but not worth it and its not bant even if you do it. which also under the new rules means we can't talk about it anyway.
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I'm not so sure why some people are losing confidence in mythic bant, especially with sovereigns. With a bit of playtesting, I feel that you can still have an edge over American Planeswalkers. Sure, this planeswalker deck can surely baffle your board, and come up with lots of solutions to stop your mythic from swinging hard. But I think that the games are being played wrong against them HEAVILY. Remembering that mythic bant is aggressive naturally, we CAN get out turn 3 sovereign, along with a cobra striking for 14 that very same turn. Sideboarding out Gideon against this matchup might be a smart idea, in contrast to keeping him in as a kill card against their Gideon. Running a lone Jace Beleren along with 2 Jace Mind Sculptors can create an advantage over their turn 4 Jace MS. Not letting them start the control wagon on you is an immense advantage. Them using their Jace before your Jace can easily stop a heavy swing with one of your creatures. Also, possibly running 4 negates in your sideboard and 4 O-Ring's is going to be a must. If they can't get a planeswalker to stick, or a martial coup off, or a day of judgement, they have no win condition. Playing defensive can win games as well, considering that turn 3 sovereign isn't always going to magically appear in your hand (although I'm sure we all wish this was possible). Leaving 3 mana untapped and potentially using cobra's landfall with (wow can't believe I'm saying this) a harrow!?!?! could potentially be all that is needed to get those 2 negates off when your opponent only thinks you can play one. Or, on the other hand, sideboarding out cobras against this deck could work as well(although I'm not sure how this would work). By sideboarding them out, you remove a creature who's function is basically just mana ramp, and putting in something that packs more of a punch, or something more controlling. You might receive slower starts, but keeping their board clear of planeswalkers (say they only have 1 out of the 3 they tried playing), leaves you open to attack the player directly without suffering too much from their lone planeswalker. Just trying to push out some ideas here to keep bant alive and putting up a fight for top 8's. Also, I suggest to those of you who dont use it to use Emerge Unscathed, because it can stop a Jace or a Gideon which managed to catch the board from wiping out a much-needed creature.
I'm going to try and fit him into the Conscription build.
If he's out when you cast Sovereigns and both Conscriptions are still in the deck you are attacking with a 26/27 trample, and that is with no other support.
This 2 card combo takes advantage of the fact that he is not a must kill. Let them use their removal on Knights, Angels and Cobras. Then just play Sovereigns and win.
I'm going to try and fit him into the Conscription build.
If he's out when you cast Sovereigns and both Conscriptions are still in the deck you are attacking with a 26/27 trample, and that is with no other support.
This 2 card combo takes advantage of the fact that he is not a must kill. Let them use their removal on Knights, Angels and Cobras. Then just play Sovereigns and win.
This seems incredibly Win-More.
Like if they blow all their removal on your other duders anyways and you play an unanswered sovereign, then you'll win anyways, you just don't need the doppelganger.
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Currently playing:
T2:
Tempered Steel:symw:
:symr::symu::symw: Birthing Pod:symr::symu::symw:
Legacy:
:symu::symb:
Four Horsemen
:symu::symb:
Thanks to Wrathchild for the Sig, it's perfect!!!
Thanks to Bookworm10 for the Avatar!
he does seem pretty win more, if they can deal with 1 sovereign they can certainly deal with a cloned version. and you really slow yourself a turn most of the time when you play it. if it comes out t2-t3 why not baneslayer? or knight? even if you get both conscriptions out, if they remove it, then you have just removed all your win conditions. no trample was one of the reason why rafiq mythic doesn't win as much against control and other decks with chump blockers.
HI Everyone, The last time I played Bant was when alara reborn was just coming out and everyone was playing with Jenara, Wall of Denial, Behemoth Sledge, PTE etc. in their decks. Reading the new deck lists all of those cards are out. I understand Jenara, and Sledge because there are better cards that could fill their slots but not sure I understand taking out the other two. Wall of Denial is an 0/8 flying shroud wall! RDW get destroyed by it. It's really hard to get around unless you have a gatekeeper or consuming vapors type spell in hand. The other card is Path. Is it simply because players do not want to give the CA to the opponent? I don't really see any other removal in the deck so it seems like it's warranted to be in there. I haven't played the deck, so it probably does fine on it's own or wall and path would be in there, but just wanted to see what people's thoughts were on why they do or do not play the cards in their Bant decks. Thanks
Path to exile is not played because of the numerous decks that need tri-color support in this format. the mirror, jund, and naya, in addition to the new UWR superpals all benefit from something being pathed. in addition, the bant build right now is an aggro build, one that goes off turn4/5. path would be a dead draw over a baneslayer, and wall of denial just doesn't fit the archetype. if you want to play midrange or control bant, than both of these cards would be a great choice, but they have no place in mythic.
I know this is out of context but I saw a guy running this Bramblesnap character in a RG deck with the goal of creating lots of spawn tokens to power him up and potentially finishing with a Soul's Fire.
☺☺☺☺ was so cash.
(probably a decklist somewhere in casual or developing.)
also i think thornling is enough and your creatures dont tap with this leaving you blockers. plus since this is mythic, does the mana cost matter that much? you have 12 Accelerators and 16 Fixers (counting the 12 accelerators).
PTE and sledge and the Wall is not run because mythic (and basically soverign) has lots of acceleration/fixing, Plus thornling covers the trample. so they cast stuff hard and fast so they have no need of things like walls and removal. its completely aggro.
But, i do think jenara could be used effectively in both mythic and soverign, but that is an argument for another time.
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What exactly does great sable stag do? They don't have any counters that would try to counter it. And honestly I don't see jace not being able to bounce it being significantly relevant.
he does seem pretty win more, if they can deal with 1 sovereign they can certainly deal with a cloned version. and you really slow yourself a turn most of the time when you play it. if it comes out t2-t3 why not baneslayer? or knight? even if you get both conscriptions out, if they remove it, then you have just removed all your win conditions. no trample was one of the reason why rafiq mythic doesn't win as much against control and other decks with chump blockers.
I have been playing with it a little after I saw this thread. And you know, it actually does a good job in this deck and isn't as awkward as I had thought. Swinging with a 26/27 double Conscripted Doppelganger sounds nice, but yeah... Bad idea. Where the Renegade really shines is when you need an insurance policy against instant speed spot removal or don't have an amazing opening hand. People have talked about how Mythic can get crazy draws, but oftentimes it also doesn't and you are stuck with 3 mana-dudes and some land. Scenarios where I liked the Renegade:
I had one on the table and played a Sovereigns of Lost Alara and cloned it. Now, my opponent needed to kill one of the now 2 Sovereigns or the Noble Hierarch that I also had out ready to attack. I win.
So, I do think I'll try it out a bit more before I toss it back in the bargain bin. Decks like this seem to like cheap insurance policies and 2 mana is cheap.
4 Baneslayer Angel
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Lotus Cobra
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Dauntless Escorts
2 Thornling
3 Sovereigns of Lost Alara
Planeswalker [5]
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Gideon Jura
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Enchantments [2]
2 Eldrazi Conscription
3 Celestial Colonnade
4 Forest
2 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Sejiri Steppe
2 Stirring Wildwood
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Sunpetal grove
2 Plains
1 Tectonic Edge
1 Arid Mesa
1 Glacial Fortress
3 Rhox Warmonk
2 Qasili Pridemage
4 Negate
1 Deprive
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Gideon Jura
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Vapor Snare
Path to Exile becoming a 4x is turning into a serious, serious issue for the conscription build.
Current post- Grand Prix KC Modern Postmortem (7/7/13)
God hand would go:
T1 land, Noble Hiearch
T2 Cobra, land, Deft Duelist
T3 Fetchland, Soverign, swing for 14 with Duelist and Conscription (+2/+2 exalted bonus)
Average would be more like T5, still difficult for most decks to deal with.
List:
2 Sejiri Steppe
4 Seaside Citadel
3 Sunpetal Grove
2 Plains
5 Forest
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Island
2 Stirring Wildwood
1 Marsh Flats
Creatures 27
3 Noble Hierarch
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Deft Duelist
4 Lotus Cobra
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Rhox War Monk
4 Sovereigns of Lost Alara
3 See Beyond
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Eldrazi Conscription
2 Elspeth, Knight Errant
3 Kor Sanctifiers
2 Pithing Needle
3 Path to Exile
4 Kor Firewalker
3 Negate
I have tested Sovereign Mythic vs. USA and it is a pretty bad matchup. I haven't had the chance to test out Traditional Mythic, but I'd imagine it has a much better matchup with Thornlings and Dauntless Escorts main.
:symw::symu::symg:Sovereign Mythic (8-4-0)
:symw::symu:Mythic Bant (20-10-0)
:symr::symb::symg: Jund
:symw::symr::symg:Where Ancients Suck
I just play some FNM so seeing something as expensive as USA isn't going to be too big of a problem for me, and I've only seen one other Mythic.
GAzusa, Lost but SeekingG
WBVish Kal, Blood ArbiterWB
WBRKaalia of the VastWBR
UBGVorosh, the HunterUBG
WRGisela, Blade of GoldnightWR
WUGJenara, Asura of WarWUG
WBGTeneb, The HarvesterWBG
WUBRGHorde of NotionsWUBRG
Midrange might be an option, but until it is proven as a competitive option let's keep discussion of it to the Developing forums.
:symw::symu::symg:Sovereign Mythic (8-4-0)
:symw::symu:Mythic Bant (20-10-0)
:symr::symb::symg: Jund
:symw::symr::symg:Where Ancients Suck
Edit: Assuming both people are playing with Sovereigns of Lost Alara?
You would think so, but those flashfreezes and paths post-SB HURT. (And if they bring in Negate for your planeswalkers, even more so.
Current post- Grand Prix KC Modern Postmortem (7/7/13)
I wasn't saying that Thornling was my target for EC, just that I have available mana to cast and protect my Thornling. I agree that birds is the right target for EC. I'm hoping to draw out the removal, for example, PoE on my Thornling so my EC-BoP remains in play once I get it on it.
Negate really doesn't affect my maindeck matchup very much, as I only run Finest Hours main. Post side, Negate would help them out, but even then it would be just to counter my counters. It is a tough matchup, but as with Tapout, it is a winable one if we play smart.
:symw::symu::symg:Sovereign Mythic (8-4-0)
:symw::symu:Mythic Bant (20-10-0)
:symr::symb::symg: Jund
:symw::symr::symg:Where Ancients Suck
GAzusa, Lost but SeekingG
WBVish Kal, Blood ArbiterWB
WBRKaalia of the VastWBR
UBGVorosh, the HunterUBG
WRGisela, Blade of GoldnightWR
WUGJenara, Asura of WarWUG
WBGTeneb, The HarvesterWBG
WUBRGHorde of NotionsWUBRG
---Artwork Done By Damnation Studios---
If he's out when you cast Sovereigns and both Conscriptions are still in the deck you are attacking with a 26/27 trample, and that is with no other support.
This 2 card combo takes advantage of the fact that he is not a must kill. Let them use their removal on Knights, Angels and Cobras. Then just play Sovereigns and win.
This seems incredibly Win-More.
Like if they blow all their removal on your other duders anyways and you play an unanswered sovereign, then you'll win anyways, you just don't need the doppelganger.
T2:
Tempered Steel:symw:
:symr::symu::symw: Birthing Pod:symr::symu::symw:
Legacy:
:symu::symb:
Four Horsemen
:symu::symb:
Thanks to Wrathchild for the Sig, it's perfect!!!
Thanks to Bookworm10 for the Avatar!
☺☺☺☺ was so cash.
(probably a decklist somewhere in casual or developing.)
That's nice and all.. but completely off topic.
But, i do think jenara could be used effectively in both mythic and soverign, but that is an argument for another time.
I have been playing with it a little after I saw this thread. And you know, it actually does a good job in this deck and isn't as awkward as I had thought. Swinging with a 26/27 double Conscripted Doppelganger sounds nice, but yeah... Bad idea. Where the Renegade really shines is when you need an insurance policy against instant speed spot removal or don't have an amazing opening hand. People have talked about how Mythic can get crazy draws, but oftentimes it also doesn't and you are stuck with 3 mana-dudes and some land. Scenarios where I liked the Renegade:
I had one on the table and played a Sovereigns of Lost Alara and cloned it. Now, my opponent needed to kill one of the now 2 Sovereigns or the Noble Hierarch that I also had out ready to attack. I win.
So, I do think I'll try it out a bit more before I toss it back in the bargain bin. Decks like this seem to like cheap insurance policies and 2 mana is cheap.
WUBRGPauper Battle BoxWUBRG ... and why I am not a fan of Wayne Reynolds' Illustrations.
1 Marsh Flats
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Celestial Colonnade
2 Stirring Wildwood
2 Sejiri Steppe
5 Forest
2 Island
2 Plains
Creatures [29]
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Lotus Cobra
3 Dauntless Escort
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Rhox War Monk
3 Baneslayer Angel
4 Sovereigns of Lost Alara
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
Enchantments [2]
2 Eldrazi Conscription
4 Negate
1 Bojuka Bog
3 Path to Exile
3 Bant Charm
2 Gideon Jura
2 Linvala, Keeper of Silence
:symw::symu::symg:Sovereign Mythic (8-4-0)
:symw::symu:Mythic Bant (20-10-0)
:symr::symb::symg: Jund
:symw::symr::symg:Where Ancients Suck