Man, I was on a roll the few games I got to play today. Feels good man.
Aside the more difficult mana cost, Identity Crisis is flat-out superior to Haunting Echoes. Not that I'm dogging on the Thought Hemo effect but the "helps me later" contingency plan just isn't as good as "You win the game." Maybe I'd be wrong if I bothered to playtest Echoes but the reason I haven't is because it just seems so damn obvious. The difference in mana cost isn't even a big deal since, while the IC player struggles to meet WWBB, the HE player is waiting for enough relevant things to hit their opponent's graveyard to even make it worth casting.
I'm a big fan of the Prism (just in general) but I'm not sure what place it'd have in our decks. We're in a Shard color, so the land base is strong. We're naturally less weak to Spreading Seas than decks that don't use blue mana. Just use a couple Borderposts if you want a nonland way to color fix. They can even accelerate sometimes. The cantrip on Prism isn't that great considering the Prism itself doesn't do much.
Well, Arcane Sanctums are better than Glacial Fortresses in my deck because I play Consume the Meek and Sorin Markov. I need extra black sources because I have to hit 3BB by turn 5 in most of my games against creature decks. Plus, I really like the added stability against opposing Seas and Edges...If you think about it, the Jund list that won a Pro Tour probably won because it simply had the most stable mana to support its powerful plethora of spells.
When I first crafted my deck, I started with a singleton Sorin too. (I also ran 2x Liliana and, for a bit, had Identity Crisis mained instead of SB.) While he was reasonably effective when I got to play him, the BBB is pretty harsh and he usually felt like win-more when I could make the cost. This was even when I still had the old manabase (playset of Sanctum, couple of Drowned Catacomb), so I had nearly as many black sources as I did blue/white!
Consume the Meek I just don't care for. It's not a replacement for DoJ by any means, even if it is Instant, because the difference between Turn 4 sweep and Turn 5 sweep is that there is no Turn 5 because you didn't sweep on Turn 4 gg. ;/ It's nice that it hits manlands lategame but it also fails to hit plenty of very relevant actual creatures (BBE, Bloodwitch, SoJI, etc.). Conditional board sweeper? Pass. And where DoJ is a better early sweeper, Martial Coup is better late and doubles as a win-con... and most of us already decided Coup isn't worth using now.
But I feel you about the more stable mana. That's part of why I even started running more basics. Aside the fact that they come in untapped, they also can't be destroyed by your aforementioned Tectonic Edge (or that ☺☺☺☺☺☺☺ Goblin Ruinblaster). Granted, there's usually some other nonbasic around to hit anyway but they're not locking me out of double-white with nonbasic LD if my two white sources are Plains / Plains. Sometimes, it's just nice to have a solid core of basic lands on the table if you're struggling to hit land drops as they pummel you with multiple nonbasic LD effects. It's kinda like how Geo-Jund came to be -- aside being more aggressive against the new control-heavy meta, the mana base is more stable compared to traditional Jund due to the larger number of basics and fetchlands. Hell, I'm stable to the point I think I'll go ahead right now and replace one of my six Plains with a singleton Tectonic Edge again... (Seriously, I just did it as I typed this up. We'll see if I come to regret it in the next 10-20 games or so.)
With regard to your manabase, consider how many black sources you really need. With Sanctum, that's already eight combined with the manland. You'll want a couple basic Swamps, to grab from a fetch or off Path, so that's ten sources already. Count the Marsh Flats as some fraction of a full land (add the fourth BTW!) and you've probably got as many sources as you do black mana symbols in the deck total. ...Which is why I personally cut the Sanctum out. A reasonable split of Glacial Fortress and additional basics make for more untapped goodness while still providing necessary color.
Now, you didn't post a decklist so maybe you actually pull quite heavy on black, but I assume you're running more than zero total of these cards: Elspeth, Baneslayer, Gideon. Those demand heavy white investment. Wall of Omens wants you to have white open on T2 and, if Consume the Meek didn't replace them entirely, DoJ demands T4 WW against aggro, yet you're running more black sources than white. That doesn't make sense. If you cut Sorin and CtM like I would suggest (especially Sorin), that would also directly lessen your dependence on black mana. Again, this would make it reasonable to cut some or all of the Arcane Sanctum, since you'll need that much less black.
I have been posting lists, but I didn't want to continuously post my decklist over and over again on the thread while I've been testing and tuning it. Anyways, this is what I have right now:
I want people to be playing around Day of Judgment and white planeswalkers, which is why there's almost an even number of white and black sources. I also need to have either turn 2 Oust or some other disruption available against Mythic, or I'm never going to survive through their brutal mana curve to be able to control the game.
I still don't like Jace TMS because it's often just a big target that can't be protected, but I decided 10 draw spells were better than 8--and Sorin wasn't doing much good for the deck. At least with Jace, I can get to 6-7 mana and drop it with mana open for countermagic, or I can play it with some removal up.
I'm going to give it a test run at an FNM tonight before I play the PTQ tomorrow, but I think it's pretty close to where I want it.
4x Walls of omens
3x ITR
4x esper charm
3x ponder
3x see beyond
with 4x spreading seas.
I know all but one of those cards is actually just a cantrip and doesn't actually net more cards but that's a crap ton of draw regardless.
I think I need to fix the mana base, less cip, and maybe try divination or something?
I don't know man it felts really hard to combat thirnax bbe -> blightning and putrid leeches....not to mention vengevines haste....I just had to be so proactive to prevent some surprise haste damage it was turning real bad.
That's not actually a "crap ton of draw," that's a bunch of cantrips and 4 Esper Charms. You need to be playing a set of Esper Charms and then at least 4-6 more draw spells that produce card advantage. Who cares about filtering through your deck, if you're never going to get ahead in cards? Do you understand how a control deck works? You're waging an attrition war based on survival and card advantage. If all you're doing is surviving, how are you ever going to win games?
This is the wrong idea. Basically, what your doing is paying mana to find new cards. And yes, while thats good in small amounts. If half of your maindeck is weak cards that just find more weak cards, then your getting nowhere, your just throwing minor annoyances at your opponent. Not to mention only 1 of those cards creates card advantage and thats simply not enough.
?x Spreading seas (0 or 4 depending on how much Jund I see in my meta)
To me, this has worked out to be a perfect amout of card advantage while still having great card quality. I often find my opponent at 0-2 cards by turn 4 or 5 (Depending on the decK) while I still have a healthy 4-6. Personally, I hate see beyond and ponder. Expecially in this deck. They dont touch board position and dont generate card advantage. So my advice is stay away from these cards. Spreading seas and Wall of omens are great cards in my opinion because they completely slow down aggro or 3 color decks and dont cost a card. And then of course divination and mind rot are great following a turn 2wall/seas. Think about this the next time your playing your Esper.
Also, I tested Sea-gate Oracle in the place of the 2 Liliana's and in this deck it caused the same problem as mentioned earlier in the post. Too many cards that just cantrip and dont do much. Also it clogged the 3-drop spot. Which is already held by the much better 8 2-for-1's and O-ring. In Liliana's place, im also testing Mind control as a 2 of, and Clone as a 2 of which works great with any of my kill conditions and Tidehollow Sculler. It's also great against polymorph as it doesnt target, meaning it kills Emrakul or Iona.
Its much better to face these kinds of things, with a sense of poise and rationality. My Decks Standard
:symb::symr:Blightpyres:symr::symb:
:symu::symb::symw:EsperLockdown:symw::symb::symu:
:symb::symg:Hellcarver-Trap Combo:symg::symb:
Hmm, honestly, I cant see what your trying to accomplish with this decklist. I can see mysteries of the deep, the 1-of doom blade, and the lack of Planeswalker control all causing problems. I would cut the doom blade, and 2 Into the roils for Oblivion rings. As they take care of planeswalkers and problem creatures. I'd also make Mindbreak trap and Negate each 3/3 to make a little better early game. Also, no Wall of Omens? You need that early game defence so you can get your counters online.. I dont know. I want to like the list, but counters can only get you soo far. Expecially with such a small amount of removal. Good luck to you at both FNM and the PTQ
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Its much better to face these kinds of things, with a sense of poise and rationality. My Decks Standard
:symb::symr:Blightpyres:symr::symb:
:symu::symb::symw:EsperLockdown:symw::symb::symu:
:symb::symg:Hellcarver-Trap Combo:symg::symb:
Hmm, honestly, I cant see what your trying to accomplish with this decklist. I can see mysteries of the deep, the 1-of doom blade, and the lack of Planeswalker control all causing problems. I would cut the doom blade, and 2 Into the roils for Oblivion rings. As they take care of planeswalkers and problem creatures. I'd also make Mindbreak trap and Negate each 3/3 to make a little better early game. Also, no Wall of Omens? You need that early game defence so you can get your counters online.. I dont know. I want to like the list, but counters can only get you soo far. Expecially with such a small amount of removal. Good luck to you at both FNM and the PTQ
I disagree. The beauty of this deck is that... what... two cards in the main deck and 8 in the full 75 can't be played at instant speed. Yes you'll take a bit of a beating early game, but if you stabilize at 4 life, who cares? The rest of the game nothing is going to touch you. It doesn't need O-ring because the lands can attack planeswalkers, and a three mana sorcery speed removal spell would just be bad in this deck. It doesn't need wall of omens because that's just space that could be used for more answers (instant speed answers.) And Mysteries of the deep is fantastic in here, because between that and esper charm, there shouldn't be a single turn after turn 3 where you're not doing anything. You wait to see what your opponent does, counter it if need be, or save removal for it, and if they don't do anything reap the card advantage. Although the removal choices I suppose are fair game for debate... The singleton doom blade kinda confuses me too, honestly.
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I have been posting lists, but I didn't want to continuously post my decklist over and over again on the thread while I've been testing and tuning it. Anyways, this is what I have right now:
I want people to be playing around Day of Judgment and white planeswalkers, which is why there's almost an even number of white and black sources. I also need to have either turn 2 Oust or some other disruption available against Mythic, or I'm never going to survive through their brutal mana curve to be able to control the game.
I still don't like Jace TMS because it's often just a big target that can't be protected, but I decided 10 draw spells were better than 8--and Sorin wasn't doing much good for the deck. At least with Jace, I can get to 6-7 mana and drop it with mana open for countermagic, or I can play it with some removal up.
I'm going to give it a test run at an FNM tonight before I play the PTQ tomorrow, but I think it's pretty close to where I want it.
That's not actually a "crap ton of draw," that's a bunch of cantrips and 4 Esper Charms. You need to be playing a set of Esper Charms and then at least 4-6 more draw spells that produce card advantage. Who cares about filtering through your deck, if you're never going to get ahead in cards? Do you understand how a control deck works? You're waging an attrition war based on survival and card advantage. If all you're doing is surviving, how are you ever going to win games?
This deck is not very good. I just play tested it and I felt like a tard in an advanced physics class. or like the Detroit lions when they play just about anyone. Consume the meek is only good enough to be a complimentary wrath effect not a main one. lack of WoO means that rdw or anything with small creatures gets to pound a way early. Also it is tear inducing to be holding a CtM and to be staring down vengevine(s).
1 Traumatic Visions
2 Gather Specimens
these need to go!!!!!!!!!!!! Cheaper answers/win cons are available. You cannot play complete Permission control anymore. Also whether you knew this or not the original UWx control also know as "the Deck" while being a permission control still used serra angel as it's win con.
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Hey i appreciate you sharing your build. I love it and have used it to win my last FNM. Now comes the serious crap. What is your board? I was wondering what are you running and why.
PS admonition angel ftw twice last friday
Heh. Apparently my build did well. I guess I should take this opportunity to post my most recent build of Creature-Based Esper.
This is a really solid list, as it attacks from several angles, and can combat almost every situation. It has counters, very powerful removal, discard and hand control, good defence, and last but not least great finishers.
If anyone has questions on how the deck plays or any card choices, ask away. The deck has had nothing but good results and im willing to answer any questions.
And lastly, I want to point out that Admonition Angel is the real deal. This card is an extremely powerful finisher. I believe Esper is the only deck that can play it to it's full potential. As it's the only color combination that plays both hand disruption to get rid of removal, and counters to protect it once it's in play. But really, if the angel hits the field unmolested, it is more game changing that baneslayer angel and almost as crippling as Iona, shield of emeria.
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Its much better to face these kinds of things, with a sense of poise and rationality. My Decks Standard
:symb::symr:Blightpyres:symr::symb:
:symu::symb::symw:EsperLockdown:symw::symb::symu:
:symb::symg:Hellcarver-Trap Combo:symg::symb:
Hi Nogoodnames, I tested your creature-based Esper but the result is not as good as you played. It's hard to against UWR planewalkers control, Tidehollow sculler&Admonition angel can be both quite easily removed, and the opponent may get his whatever that being removed back. I used to empty opponent's hand and battlefield, but he turned around with one drawed PTE which removed my tidehollow sculler and got one Doj back. I don't have enough couter spells
Would you please share more experience about duel with Jund/Rdw/UWR Planewalkers? Thnks a lot.
I occasionally run adomonition angel in junk as a 2 of. I've always stood by the card. It is useful in situations when other cards are not. It is a straight up fat body plus the ability to control the board. It really shines when they have multiple walkers on the board, eldrazi monuments, or other pesky artifacts like basilisk collar. I find it exceptional against turbofog, and mono green eldrazi monument.
I'm really liking the looks of it in esper with other hand and board distruption.
Hi Nogoodnames, I tested your creature-based Esper but the result is not as good as you played. It's hard to against UWR planewalkers control, Tidehollow sculler&Admonition angel can be both quite easily removed, and the opponent may get his whatever that being removed back. I used to empty opponent's hand and battlefield, but he turned around with one drawed PTE which removed my tidehollow sculler and got one Doj back. I don't have enough couter spells
Would you please share more experience about duel with Jund/Rdw/UWR Planewalkers? Thnks a lot.
Really? Because personally, planeswalker control is one of my favorite matchups. Post board, I can see how it would be fairly tough to win. But post board, after siding in the extra counterspell, oblivion ring, and then the 3 duress's. Your opponent shouldnt be getting any walkers on the field and if they do, they should be fairly easy taken care of.
As for Tidehollow sculler and Admonition angel, these are cards you have to play carefully with. Obviously, you need to make sure they dont have removal in thier hand. But you also have to protect them. Some ways of doing this-
-Esper charm to discard at the end of thier draw step. Great move to time warp them.
-Use Jace to fateseal them once thier low on cards in hand.
-Use Liliana to tutor up counters.
-Bluff counterspells if you have none in hand.
Yes, your opponent can always topdeck that critical piece of removal, you just need to make sure your prepared to deal with it. Most deck that do run removal only run 6-12 of them. This deck has the tools necessary to handle that much. You just have to play carefully and intelligently.
By the way, an insane move I actually pulled off was this.
I have 2 admonition angels and a Marsh Flats out against Jund. He goes to pulse the first, in response, I crack my fetchland to activate both Angel's exile abilities. I put the angel that is about to get pulsed's ability on the stack targeting his Thrinax, and then the other angel's ability on top of it, targeting the angel about to get removed. What this does is exiled the soon-to-be-dead angel and because of that, by the time it's exile ability targeting the thrinax goes off, it has already left the field, meaning his Thrinax is gone forever. Also, my 2nd angel is saved from pulse. And the first angel will come back if my 2nd were to die =] What a tricky move? I think so. Very rare? Quite.
Anyway, if your metagame has alot of planeswalker control, I would suggest cutting the 2 smothers in the sideboard for pithing needle. The sideboard I posted earlier today is mostly crafted for my metagame, and can be changed accordingly to any meta.
Next, you wanted to know about Red Deck Wins. Well, first off, im not going to lie, Game one against RDW is pretty damn tough. And I've never won a game one against it unless i've had alot of wall of omens and discard. But dont be sad! Theres good news. Games 2 and 3 are soo easy it makes me feel bad. Obviously you side in 4 firewalkers, which is basically good game right there. But alongside that, you side in duress and smother. Now basically you have 2 strategies here. First off, try and get a hand with alot of hand disruption. Red deck wins has a very hard time winning if they run out of fuel. So get as many Duress/Mind Rot/Tidehollow/Esper Charm as possible. Wall of omens is great against the version running devastating summons, Kiln fiend, or Hellspark Elemental. After youve drawn the game out into the late game, just win as usual but be careful. Strategy 2 is basically the same as #1, exept it includes playing any number of Kor Firewalkers and then laughing as the red deck scoops. Really, it hoses them THAT much.
As for Jund, the plan is just basically keep card advantage on them. The thing about Jund is that, all of thier cards are 2-for-1's. But the funny thing is, if they never get to play them, they cant 2-for-1. So if you duress thier blightnings, Tideholow thier bloodbraids, oblivion ring thier thrinaxs, and admonition angel/baneslayer thier seige-gangs/Broodmates you should do well. Also, try to save your Esper charms and Mind rots for after Jund has played most of it's lands. That way you hit more relevant cards. This is one of those matchups where you really need to know the deck and play effectively to win. Our deck is capable of generating even more card advantage than Jund, because we run just as many 2-for-ones. And at the same time, we can shut downt thiers through heavy discard and counterspells.
P.S. I Just wanted to let it be known that the reason I didnt post results for last friday was because I wasnt able to attend FNM due to most of my Magic team, including my ride were out of town. But I will be posting results this friday!
Its much better to face these kinds of things, with a sense of poise and rationality. My Decks Standard
:symb::symr:Blightpyres:symr::symb:
:symu::symb::symw:EsperLockdown:symw::symb::symu:
:symb::symg:Hellcarver-Trap Combo:symg::symb:
Alright, here I go, hopping on the official Esper-Bandwagon! So, I have some questions and discussion topics. So. What's everyone's thoughts on counters? I see people moving away from it, but why? I run 4 negate and 2 deprive main with 4 flashfreeze in the board. I see a lot of decks dropping counters altogether though! Why is this? Pros and cons? Okay, moving on. Removal. I run 2 O-ring main with one more in the board, 2 path main and 2 more in the board, 3 DoJ main, and 2 celestial purge in the board. How much removal is needed? Any suggestions as to what other removal I should look into? And why does everyone love path?! The mana accel it gives them bothers me. It hits manlands which is great, but smother does that without replacing the land. It ditches Thrinax and Bloodghast, but they drop T3 and T2 respectively, the land they would get isn't exactly something I'd be thrilled about. So lets have a discussion!
Okay what's going wrong? Honestly, I've stopped using Spreading Seas altogether. Take a breath and post what's not working before I say what I'd do or cut.
so the site kinda deleted or didn't post my list of reasons on what to play, T.T so much time wasted.
Anyhow imho play the deck, seriously you'll find what doesn't work and what does. The deck looks standard as far as somethings go, if you want me to test it for you @#$% no! If you only have this on paper and want to buy the cards, seriously don't go for the baneslayers, add some CtM to make it cheaper and have more removal.
I'm staying with my mostly draw go setup, I'll see how I do later this week.
Why exactly are you playing esper? 3 Consuming Vapors and 2 Liliana's arent worth the splash. If your gonna play the chalice/mindspring/coup package, you should be playing U/w, not U/W/b. Esper charm, Agony warp, etc are all cards that your missing out on and all your doing is weakening and slowing your mana base for cards that arent relevent for your build.
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Its much better to face these kinds of things, with a sense of poise and rationality. My Decks Standard
:symb::symr:Blightpyres:symr::symb:
:symu::symb::symw:EsperLockdown:symw::symb::symu:
:symb::symg:Hellcarver-Trap Combo:symg::symb:
so the site kinda deleted or didn't post my list of reasons on what to play, T.T so much time wasted.
Anyhow imho play the deck, seriously you'll find what doesn't work and what does. The deck looks standard as far as somethings go, if you want me to test it for you @#$% no! If you only have this on paper and want to buy the cards, seriously don't go for the baneslayers, add some CtM to make it cheaper and have more removal.
I'm staying with my mostly draw go setup, I'll see how I do later this week.
I own most of the stuff I just don't have:
2 Liliana
2 Identity Crisis
4 Arcane Sanctums
And I've been really busy with work, so I haven't played much.
i Play a list similar to nogoodnames and i can tell you it's the nuts. The discard advantage is very strong. It's hard to win games when you don't have cards and early disruption is key to some match ups. I currently own a %60 win percentage against jund. I like to toot my own horn ;). I also haven't had any problems with super friends or grixis. vamps can sometimes get toyou quickly but again the hand disruption makes for slower paced games that you can control. RDW is a beeeotchh but i added deft duelist and it wasn't so bad anymore. sideboard they bring in unstable footing for my kor firewalders and i gain life then block 1st strike with the duelist. it is almost an auto wim but you still have to play correctly. Mythic can be a challenge if they get off quick enough, but a well placed path and day from the side ends their game plan quickly. Tonight I went 7-0-1 brought home the bacon in the form of 96 store credit, We had 24 show up. 5 rounds swiss ( i dont make the rules)
round 2 (super friends)
not much to say we drew he won game 1 gideon saving him while couldn't find an o-ring. I win game 2 ripping apart his hand and dropping an uncontested ascension. time da - - it.
round 3 ( crap deck ugtrash)
not worth it killed it
round 4 (naya allies)
game one saw me scoop to a turn 4 21 points of damage
game two saw him scoop to double admonition angel
game three was exciting, he leads with hada i follow with wall
he goes into battleslinger action meet the path-onator
i start to kill hand. he gets me down to 8 before i find double duelist with a charm
his luck runs out when i drop a sphinx and charm his hand after draw.
round 5 (elfdrazi)
i wanted to try and draw in but he needed the win. path and o-ring into BSA and admonition angel FTW. BOTH GAMES
QUARTERS (mythic) i used jace to bounce a KOTR then rot it away, he got one swing in with conscription next time i pathed SOLA at combat and charmed the conscription duelist killed the cobra. game 2 saw hand disruption and day do the job and tar pit bring home the bacon
SEMIS (jund with vengevine)
honestly i got lucky both games. game one i topdecked an admonition angel and played down a second marsh flats FTW
game two my opening hand had 2 charms 1 rot and jace
FINALS (vamps)
Do you wanna split? i think i can beat you. Okay let's do this
jace meet hexmage
sculler meet gatekeeper
duelist meet his face over and over again
game two saw him mind sludge me off a top deck only to see me jace back to form. Bloodwitch came to visit my face after killing jace until mind control said wouldn't it be better to fight him. a second witch spells doom untill "i'm a topdecker, I'm a topdecker look at me now" ripped my lone jace out of the deck sent the witch home and a turn later sent it home and charmed it away while still kicking teeth in with the witch i had gained.
$96 dollars all for me he still got $48 ryan is a good guy I almost felt bad as i used my store credit to buy the last 2 vengevines,
I own most of the stuff I just don't have:
2 Liliana
2 Identity Crisis
4 Arcane Sanctums
And I've been really busy with work, so I haven't played much.
But I do own the BSAs though.
I can tell you the power of Liliana and Identity Crisis is showing promise in testing. It just works best with lots of counters and sweeping the board before you play it, i.e. EoT CtM followed up next turn with IC. But that's for a different build. Oust is not to be forgotten, I have at least one and I'm pretty happy most of the time it shows up.
Seriously, I prefer the draw Go set up right now, partially cuz I haven't tried or cared to venture out into a different direction because I haven't had to, 12-3 right now makes me really happy, though bad luck costs more of my loses.
I'd almost give Wall of Omens a try but that would lower my counterspell count so I'd say nay even to it. The point I'm trying to make is it seems that different builds of Esper seem to work well when you know how to play it and know your meta.
EDIT: @Bombdiggedy- congrats, hope those vengvines are made useful for you.
I can tell you the power of Liliana and Identity Crisis is showing promise in testing. It just works best with lots of counters and sweeping the board before you play it, i.e. EoT CtM followed up next turn with IC. But that's for a different build. Oust is not to be forgotten, I have at least one and I'm pretty happy most of the time it shows up.
Seriously, I prefer the draw Go set up right now, partially cuz I haven't tried or cared to venture out into a different direction because I haven't had to, 12-3 right now makes me really happy, though bad luck costs more of my loses.
I'd almost give Wall of Omens a try but that would lower my counterspell count so I'd say nay even to it. The point I'm trying to make is it seems that different builds of Esper seem to work well when you know how to play it and know your meta.
EDIT: @Bombdiggedy- congrats, hope those vengvines are made useful for you.
Ah I see, my Meta is mainly Jund. >_<
But thanks for your help. =]
Your post was really informative.
I think I might wanna play Chalices and Mind Springs in place of Spreading Seas.
Aside the more difficult mana cost, Identity Crisis is flat-out superior to Haunting Echoes. Not that I'm dogging on the Thought Hemo effect but the "helps me later" contingency plan just isn't as good as "You win the game." Maybe I'd be wrong if I bothered to playtest Echoes but the reason I haven't is because it just seems so damn obvious. The difference in mana cost isn't even a big deal since, while the IC player struggles to meet WWBB, the HE player is waiting for enough relevant things to hit their opponent's graveyard to even make it worth casting.
I'm a big fan of the Prism (just in general) but I'm not sure what place it'd have in our decks. We're in a Shard color, so the land base is strong. We're naturally less weak to Spreading Seas than decks that don't use blue mana. Just use a couple Borderposts if you want a nonland way to color fix. They can even accelerate sometimes. The cantrip on Prism isn't that great considering the Prism itself doesn't do much.
When I first crafted my deck, I started with a singleton Sorin too. (I also ran 2x Liliana and, for a bit, had Identity Crisis mained instead of SB.) While he was reasonably effective when I got to play him, the BBB is pretty harsh and he usually felt like win-more when I could make the cost. This was even when I still had the old manabase (playset of Sanctum, couple of Drowned Catacomb), so I had nearly as many black sources as I did blue/white!
Consume the Meek I just don't care for. It's not a replacement for DoJ by any means, even if it is Instant, because the difference between Turn 4 sweep and Turn 5 sweep is that there is no Turn 5 because you didn't sweep on Turn 4 gg. ;/ It's nice that it hits manlands lategame but it also fails to hit plenty of very relevant actual creatures (BBE, Bloodwitch, SoJI, etc.). Conditional board sweeper? Pass. And where DoJ is a better early sweeper, Martial Coup is better late and doubles as a win-con... and most of us already decided Coup isn't worth using now.
But I feel you about the more stable mana. That's part of why I even started running more basics. Aside the fact that they come in untapped, they also can't be destroyed by your aforementioned Tectonic Edge (or that ☺☺☺☺☺☺☺ Goblin Ruinblaster). Granted, there's usually some other nonbasic around to hit anyway but they're not locking me out of double-white with nonbasic LD if my two white sources are Plains / Plains. Sometimes, it's just nice to have a solid core of basic lands on the table if you're struggling to hit land drops as they pummel you with multiple nonbasic LD effects. It's kinda like how Geo-Jund came to be -- aside being more aggressive against the new control-heavy meta, the mana base is more stable compared to traditional Jund due to the larger number of basics and fetchlands. Hell, I'm stable to the point I think I'll go ahead right now and replace one of my six Plains with a singleton Tectonic Edge again... (Seriously, I just did it as I typed this up. We'll see if I come to regret it in the next 10-20 games or so.)
With regard to your manabase, consider how many black sources you really need. With Sanctum, that's already eight combined with the manland. You'll want a couple basic Swamps, to grab from a fetch or off Path, so that's ten sources already. Count the Marsh Flats as some fraction of a full land (add the fourth BTW!) and you've probably got as many sources as you do black mana symbols in the deck total. ...Which is why I personally cut the Sanctum out. A reasonable split of Glacial Fortress and additional basics make for more untapped goodness while still providing necessary color.
Now, you didn't post a decklist so maybe you actually pull quite heavy on black, but I assume you're running more than zero total of these cards: Elspeth, Baneslayer, Gideon. Those demand heavy white investment. Wall of Omens wants you to have white open on T2 and, if Consume the Meek didn't replace them entirely, DoJ demands T4 WW against aggro, yet you're running more black sources than white. That doesn't make sense. If you cut Sorin and CtM like I would suggest (especially Sorin), that would also directly lessen your dependence on black mana. Again, this would make it reasonable to cut some or all of the Arcane Sanctum, since you'll need that much less black.
4 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Celestial Colonnade
1 Drowned Catacomb
3 Marsh Flats
1 Misty Rainforest
5 Island
2 Swamp
2 Plains
4 Esper Charm
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Mysteries of the Deep
1 Doom Blade
2 Into the Roil
3 Consume the Meek
2 Negate
1 Deprive
4 Cancel
4 Mindbreak Trap
1 Traumatic Visions
2 Gather Specimens
4 Oust
2 Flashfreeze
2 Celestial Purge
2 Gather Specimens
1 Consume the Meek
1 Pithing Needle
2 Negate
1 Identity Crisis
I want people to be playing around Day of Judgment and white planeswalkers, which is why there's almost an even number of white and black sources. I also need to have either turn 2 Oust or some other disruption available against Mythic, or I'm never going to survive through their brutal mana curve to be able to control the game.
I still don't like Jace TMS because it's often just a big target that can't be protected, but I decided 10 draw spells were better than 8--and Sorin wasn't doing much good for the deck. At least with Jace, I can get to 6-7 mana and drop it with mana open for countermagic, or I can play it with some removal up.
I'm going to give it a test run at an FNM tonight before I play the PTQ tomorrow, but I think it's pretty close to where I want it.
That's not actually a "crap ton of draw," that's a bunch of cantrips and 4 Esper Charms. You need to be playing a set of Esper Charms and then at least 4-6 more draw spells that produce card advantage. Who cares about filtering through your deck, if you're never going to get ahead in cards? Do you understand how a control deck works? You're waging an attrition war based on survival and card advantage. If all you're doing is surviving, how are you ever going to win games?
This is the wrong idea. Basically, what your doing is paying mana to find new cards. And yes, while thats good in small amounts. If half of your maindeck is weak cards that just find more weak cards, then your getting nowhere, your just throwing minor annoyances at your opponent. Not to mention only 1 of those cards creates card advantage and thats simply not enough.
In my deck I run
To me, this has worked out to be a perfect amout of card advantage while still having great card quality. I often find my opponent at 0-2 cards by turn 4 or 5 (Depending on the decK) while I still have a healthy 4-6. Personally, I hate see beyond and ponder. Expecially in this deck. They dont touch board position and dont generate card advantage. So my advice is stay away from these cards. Spreading seas and Wall of omens are great cards in my opinion because they completely slow down aggro or 3 color decks and dont cost a card. And then of course divination and mind rot are great following a turn 2wall/seas. Think about this the next time your playing your Esper.
Also, my updated list for those who care.
2x Admonition Angel
2x Sphinx of Jwar Isle
4x Tidehollow Sculler
4x Wall of Omens
2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2x Liliana Vess
2x Divination
2x Mind Rot
4x Esper Charm
2x Negate
1x Unified Will
3x Path to Exile
3x Oblivion Ring
2x Creeping Tar Pit
4x Glacial Fortress
2x Drowned Catacomb
4x Marsh Flats
3x Plains
3x Island
2x Swamp
4x Arcane Sanctum
1x Path to Exile
1x Oblivion Ring
1x Unified Will
1x Negate
4x Kor Firewalker
2x Pithing Needle
3x Duress
2x Baneslayer Angel
Also, I tested Sea-gate Oracle in the place of the 2 Liliana's and in this deck it caused the same problem as mentioned earlier in the post. Too many cards that just cantrip and dont do much. Also it clogged the 3-drop spot. Which is already held by the much better 8 2-for-1's and O-ring. In Liliana's place, im also testing Mind control as a 2 of, and Clone as a 2 of which works great with any of my kill conditions and Tidehollow Sculler. It's also great against polymorph as it doesnt target, meaning it kills Emrakul or Iona.
Its much better to face these kinds of things, with a sense of poise and rationality.
My Decks
Standard
:symb::symr:Blightpyres:symr::symb:
:symu::symb::symw:EsperLockdown:symw::symb::symu:
:symb::symg:Hellcarver-Trap Combo:symg::symb:
I can't wait to see your results from tonight.
Hmm, honestly, I cant see what your trying to accomplish with this decklist. I can see mysteries of the deep, the 1-of doom blade, and the lack of Planeswalker control all causing problems. I would cut the doom blade, and 2 Into the roils for Oblivion rings. As they take care of planeswalkers and problem creatures. I'd also make Mindbreak trap and Negate each 3/3 to make a little better early game. Also, no Wall of Omens? You need that early game defence so you can get your counters online.. I dont know. I want to like the list, but counters can only get you soo far. Expecially with such a small amount of removal. Good luck to you at both FNM and the PTQ
Its much better to face these kinds of things, with a sense of poise and rationality.
My Decks
Standard
:symb::symr:Blightpyres:symr::symb:
:symu::symb::symw:EsperLockdown:symw::symb::symu:
:symb::symg:Hellcarver-Trap Combo:symg::symb:
I disagree. The beauty of this deck is that... what... two cards in the main deck and 8 in the full 75 can't be played at instant speed. Yes you'll take a bit of a beating early game, but if you stabilize at 4 life, who cares? The rest of the game nothing is going to touch you. It doesn't need O-ring because the lands can attack planeswalkers, and a three mana sorcery speed removal spell would just be bad in this deck. It doesn't need wall of omens because that's just space that could be used for more answers (instant speed answers.) And Mysteries of the deep is fantastic in here, because between that and esper charm, there shouldn't be a single turn after turn 3 where you're not doing anything. You wait to see what your opponent does, counter it if need be, or save removal for it, and if they don't do anything reap the card advantage. Although the removal choices I suppose are fair game for debate... The singleton doom blade kinda confuses me too, honestly.
"I am confident that if anyone actually
penetrates our facades, even the most
perceptive would still be fundamentally
unprepared for the truth of House Dimir."
This deck is not very good. I just play tested it and I felt like a tard in an advanced physics class. or like the Detroit lions when they play just about anyone. Consume the meek is only good enough to be a complimentary wrath effect not a main one. lack of WoO means that rdw or anything with small creatures gets to pound a way early. Also it is tear inducing to be holding a CtM and to be staring down vengevine(s).
1 Traumatic Visions
2 Gather Specimens
these need to go!!!!!!!!!!!! Cheaper answers/win cons are available. You cannot play complete Permission control anymore. Also whether you knew this or not the original UWx control also know as "the Deck" while being a permission control still used serra angel as it's win con.
Albert Einstein
Thomas Jefferson
4 Baneslayer Angel
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Liliana Vess
1 Gideon Jura
4 Esper Charm
4 Spreading Seas
3 Day of Judgment
3 Oblivion Ring
3 Path to Exile
2 Negate
1 Identity Crisis
4 Arcane Sanctum
4 Glacial Fortress
2 Drowned Catacomb
2 Celestial Colonnade
2 Creeping Tar Pit
3 Island
3 Plains
2 Swamp
2 Malakir Bloodwitch
4 Duress
2 Celestial Purge
2 Doom Blade
1 Negate
1 Identity Crisis
I'm new to the deck, opinions? O_O
Heh. Apparently my build did well. I guess I should take this opportunity to post my most recent build of Creature-Based Esper.
1x Baneslayer Angel
4x Tidehollow Sculler
2x Sphinx of Jwar Isle
4x Wall of Omens
4x Esper Charm
3x Path to Exile
3x Oblivion Ring
1x Unified Will
2x Negate
2x Mind Rot
2x Divination
2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2x Liliana Vess
3x Island
3x Plains
2x Celestial Colonnade
2x Creeping Tar Pit
4x Glacial Fortress
2x Drowned Catacomb
4x Marsh flats
1x Admonition Angel
1x Unified will
2x Smother
3x Duress
1x Oblivion Ring
4x Kor Firewalker
3x Day of Judgment
This is a really solid list, as it attacks from several angles, and can combat almost every situation. It has counters, very powerful removal, discard and hand control, good defence, and last but not least great finishers.
If anyone has questions on how the deck plays or any card choices, ask away. The deck has had nothing but good results and im willing to answer any questions.
And lastly, I want to point out that Admonition Angel is the real deal. This card is an extremely powerful finisher. I believe Esper is the only deck that can play it to it's full potential. As it's the only color combination that plays both hand disruption to get rid of removal, and counters to protect it once it's in play. But really, if the angel hits the field unmolested, it is more game changing that baneslayer angel and almost as crippling as Iona, shield of emeria.
Its much better to face these kinds of things, with a sense of poise and rationality.
My Decks
Standard
:symb::symr:Blightpyres:symr::symb:
:symu::symb::symw:EsperLockdown:symw::symb::symu:
:symb::symg:Hellcarver-Trap Combo:symg::symb:
Would you please share more experience about duel with Jund/Rdw/UWR Planewalkers? Thnks a lot.
I'm really liking the looks of it in esper with other hand and board distruption.
Really? Because personally, planeswalker control is one of my favorite matchups. Post board, I can see how it would be fairly tough to win. But post board, after siding in the extra counterspell, oblivion ring, and then the 3 duress's. Your opponent shouldnt be getting any walkers on the field and if they do, they should be fairly easy taken care of.
As for Tidehollow sculler and Admonition angel, these are cards you have to play carefully with. Obviously, you need to make sure they dont have removal in thier hand. But you also have to protect them. Some ways of doing this-
-Esper charm to discard at the end of thier draw step. Great move to time warp them.
-Use Jace to fateseal them once thier low on cards in hand.
-Use Liliana to tutor up counters.
-Bluff counterspells if you have none in hand.
Yes, your opponent can always topdeck that critical piece of removal, you just need to make sure your prepared to deal with it. Most deck that do run removal only run 6-12 of them. This deck has the tools necessary to handle that much. You just have to play carefully and intelligently.
By the way, an insane move I actually pulled off was this.
I have 2 admonition angels and a Marsh Flats out against Jund. He goes to pulse the first, in response, I crack my fetchland to activate both Angel's exile abilities. I put the angel that is about to get pulsed's ability on the stack targeting his Thrinax, and then the other angel's ability on top of it, targeting the angel about to get removed. What this does is exiled the soon-to-be-dead angel and because of that, by the time it's exile ability targeting the thrinax goes off, it has already left the field, meaning his Thrinax is gone forever. Also, my 2nd angel is saved from pulse. And the first angel will come back if my 2nd were to die =] What a tricky move? I think so. Very rare? Quite.
Anyway, if your metagame has alot of planeswalker control, I would suggest cutting the 2 smothers in the sideboard for pithing needle. The sideboard I posted earlier today is mostly crafted for my metagame, and can be changed accordingly to any meta.
Next, you wanted to know about Red Deck Wins. Well, first off, im not going to lie, Game one against RDW is pretty damn tough. And I've never won a game one against it unless i've had alot of wall of omens and discard. But dont be sad! Theres good news. Games 2 and 3 are soo easy it makes me feel bad. Obviously you side in 4 firewalkers, which is basically good game right there. But alongside that, you side in duress and smother. Now basically you have 2 strategies here. First off, try and get a hand with alot of hand disruption. Red deck wins has a very hard time winning if they run out of fuel. So get as many Duress/Mind Rot/Tidehollow/Esper Charm as possible. Wall of omens is great against the version running devastating summons, Kiln fiend, or Hellspark Elemental. After youve drawn the game out into the late game, just win as usual but be careful. Strategy 2 is basically the same as #1, exept it includes playing any number of Kor Firewalkers and then laughing as the red deck scoops. Really, it hoses them THAT much.
As for Jund, the plan is just basically keep card advantage on them. The thing about Jund is that, all of thier cards are 2-for-1's. But the funny thing is, if they never get to play them, they cant 2-for-1. So if you duress thier blightnings, Tideholow thier bloodbraids, oblivion ring thier thrinaxs, and admonition angel/baneslayer thier seige-gangs/Broodmates you should do well. Also, try to save your Esper charms and Mind rots for after Jund has played most of it's lands. That way you hit more relevant cards. This is one of those matchups where you really need to know the deck and play effectively to win. Our deck is capable of generating even more card advantage than Jund, because we run just as many 2-for-ones. And at the same time, we can shut downt thiers through heavy discard and counterspells.
P.S. I Just wanted to let it be known that the reason I didnt post results for last friday was because I wasnt able to attend FNM due to most of my Magic team, including my ride were out of town. But I will be posting results this friday!
Its much better to face these kinds of things, with a sense of poise and rationality.
My Decks
Standard
:symb::symr:Blightpyres:symr::symb:
:symu::symb::symw:EsperLockdown:symw::symb::symu:
:symb::symg:Hellcarver-Trap Combo:symg::symb:
I really need help. =/
Okay what's going wrong? Honestly, I've stopped using Spreading Seas altogether. Take a breath and post what's not working before I say what I'd do or cut.
This deck is just on paper for now.
Anyhow imho play the deck, seriously you'll find what doesn't work and what does. The deck looks standard as far as somethings go, if you want me to test it for you @#$% no! If you only have this on paper and want to buy the cards, seriously don't go for the baneslayers, add some CtM to make it cheaper and have more removal.
I'm staying with my mostly draw go setup, I'll see how I do later this week.
4 Celestial Colonnade
4 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Arcane Sanctum
4 Sejiri Refuge
3 plains
2 island
3 swamp
creatures
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
3 Sea Gate Oracle
4 Wall of Omens
4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Liliana Vess
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
other
4 Everflowing Chalice
3 Spreading Seas
3 Oblivion Ring
3 Day of Judgment
3 Consuming Vapors
2 Martial Coup
2 Mind Spring
4 Meddling Mage
4 Path to exile
2 Mind Control
3 Telemin Performance
2 luminarch ascension
Tooth & Nail........Grishoalbrand....Living Dominance....Tezzerator.........Vannifar Pod
My Decks that have been BANNED
DRS Jund | Kiki-Pod | Bloom Titan | Splinter Twin | KCI
Why exactly are you playing esper? 3 Consuming Vapors and 2 Liliana's arent worth the splash. If your gonna play the chalice/mindspring/coup package, you should be playing U/w, not U/W/b. Esper charm, Agony warp, etc are all cards that your missing out on and all your doing is weakening and slowing your mana base for cards that arent relevent for your build.
Its much better to face these kinds of things, with a sense of poise and rationality.
My Decks
Standard
:symb::symr:Blightpyres:symr::symb:
:symu::symb::symw:EsperLockdown:symw::symb::symu:
:symb::symg:Hellcarver-Trap Combo:symg::symb:
I own most of the stuff I just don't have:
2 Liliana
2 Identity Crisis
4 Arcane Sanctums
And I've been really busy with work, so I haven't played much.
But I do own the BSAs though.
Deck 3x plains
3x island
2x swamp
1x arid mesa
4x marsh flats
3x arcane sanctum
2x creeping tar pit
2x celestial colonnade
4x glacial fortress
2x drowned catacomb
2x admonition angel
1x baneslayer angel
4x tidehollow sculler
4x wall of omen
2x sphinx of jwar isle
2x deft duelist2x divination
4x esper charm
3x path to exile
3x oblivion ring
3x unified will
2x mind rot
2x jace the mind sculptorsideboard
1x path to exile
3x day of judgement
4x kor firewalker
2x pithing needle
2x luminarch ascension
3x mind control
round 1 (Jund) he leads with leech meets duelist pumps and i path
brings BBE into pulse nothing on the board elf is mad that he can't swing.
i rot him and play down tar pit. He goes for SGC awesome. I oring the SGC and drop a wall. he draw land i drop BSA scoop phase
game 2 I run sculler into sculler into charm into sphinx for scoop phase he was mana screwed a little though
round 2 (super friends)
not much to say we drew he won game 1 gideon saving him while couldn't find an o-ring. I win game 2 ripping apart his hand and dropping an uncontested ascension. time da - - it.
round 3 ( crap deck ugtrash)
not worth it killed it
round 4 (naya allies)
game one saw me scoop to a turn 4 21 points of damage
game two saw him scoop to double admonition angel
game three was exciting, he leads with hada i follow with wall
he goes into battleslinger action meet the path-onator
i start to kill hand. he gets me down to 8 before i find double duelist with a charm
his luck runs out when i drop a sphinx and charm his hand after draw.
round 5 (elfdrazi)
i wanted to try and draw in but he needed the win. path and o-ring into BSA and admonition angel FTW. BOTH GAMES
QUARTERS (mythic) i used jace to bounce a KOTR then rot it away, he got one swing in with conscription next time i pathed SOLA at combat and charmed the conscription duelist killed the cobra. game 2 saw hand disruption and day do the job and tar pit bring home the bacon
SEMIS (jund with vengevine)
honestly i got lucky both games. game one i topdecked an admonition angel and played down a second marsh flats FTW
game two my opening hand had 2 charms 1 rot and jace
FINALS (vamps)
Do you wanna split? i think i can beat you. Okay let's do this
jace meet hexmage
sculler meet gatekeeper
duelist meet his face over and over again
game two saw him mind sludge me off a top deck only to see me jace back to form. Bloodwitch came to visit my face after killing jace until mind control said wouldn't it be better to fight him. a second witch spells doom untill "i'm a topdecker, I'm a topdecker look at me now" ripped my lone jace out of the deck sent the witch home and a turn later sent it home and charmed it away while still kicking teeth in with the witch i had gained.
$96 dollars all for me he still got $48 ryan is a good guy I almost felt bad as i used my store credit to buy the last 2 vengevines,
I can tell you the power of Liliana and Identity Crisis is showing promise in testing. It just works best with lots of counters and sweeping the board before you play it, i.e. EoT CtM followed up next turn with IC. But that's for a different build. Oust is not to be forgotten, I have at least one and I'm pretty happy most of the time it shows up.
Seriously, I prefer the draw Go set up right now, partially cuz I haven't tried or cared to venture out into a different direction because I haven't had to, 12-3 right now makes me really happy, though bad luck costs more of my loses.
I'd almost give Wall of Omens a try but that would lower my counterspell count so I'd say nay even to it. The point I'm trying to make is it seems that different builds of Esper seem to work well when you know how to play it and know your meta.
EDIT: @Bombdiggedy- congrats, hope those vengvines are made useful for you.
Ah I see, my Meta is mainly Jund. >_<
But thanks for your help. =]
Your post was really informative.
I think I might wanna play Chalices and Mind Springs in place of Spreading Seas.