Some of these builds have NOWHERE near enough mana. 21 mana sources? Really? Remember to accelerate you need to hit a land drop AND play a fetch effect.
Just to give you guys ideas ... mono red hits the top of its curve at 3 if you dont count Unearths and Kicked spells and they run 24. Were looking to top out at 7 on turn FIVE. We need at least 26. Proably closer to 28.
Banky, i think you miscounted if you're referring to KronosTKD's list on the previous page.
he has 21 lands +4 borderposts to bring the count of zero-mana playable mana sources up to 25.
he also has 4 chalices, 4 rampant growth, and 4 cultivate so thats alot of ramping as well.
i'm not saying his setup is the correct one, but at least give him the benefit of counting correctly. he's not at just 21 mana sources. its quite a bit more than that.
Yeah I missed the boarderposts. Oops. But I still think the deck needs more lands. Your a deck looking to hit 7 mana ASAP then promptly destroy 5 lands. Sometimes (if this deck played anything like old UR 'Vore lists) you simply need to drop your Wildfire/D-Force with the knowledge that your deck will rip lands much better than the opponents.
One note about my testing so far. Im loving the Oracle + Jace combination in this deck just as much as in Turboland. It can give you so much CA, which this deck just loves.
Yeah I missed the boarderposts. Oops. But I still think the deck needs more lands. Your a deck looking to hit 7 mana ASAP then promptly destroy 5 lands. Sometimes (if this deck played anything like old UR 'Vore lists) you simply need to drop your Wildfire/D-Force with the knowledge that your deck will rip lands much better than the opponents.
One note about my testing so far. Im loving the Oracle + Jace combination in this deck just as much as in Turboland. It can give you so much CA, which this deck just loves.
I havent tested yet but if the list shows to need more mana 2 spells can be easily replaced for lands. 27 seems like a reasonable number. And yea no offense but next time can you read the whole list before critizicing? Youll save yourself some embarrasing posts
Access to a turn 3 titan followed up with a turn 4 Destructive Force is basically game against any deck in the format. It has the explosiveness of Mythic which I like, and its ability to attack what every deck needs (lands) ensures its always ahead in the game. Even if you have the early mana dorks destroyed it can slowroll the gameplan out to shut you down of any and all mana with the Ruinblasters and Roiling Terrain before the Destructive Force.
The only card I know I want in the board is Autumn's Veil. The other slots are up for grabs.
I havent tested yet but if the list shows to need more mana 2 spells can be easily replaced for lands. 27 seems like a reasonable number. And yea no offense but next time can you read the whole list before critizicing? Youll save yourself some embarrasing posts
The list in the post above yours only has 21 lands as well. It wasnt a call out directly on you but several of the lists in this thread.
I would honestly love for a Destructive Force archetype to make it to tier 1 (its very much a style a card that Ive always enjoyed playing with) and for us to even have a reasonable shot at it, we cant be messing around with lists that are going to stumble on mana every other game.
While DF is a nice card to pave the path to victory, I think the deck should be able to survive/win on its own without DF, hence the lack of ramp.
Since I'm running Naya colours, KOTQ is an auto-include for awesome synergy with DF while being a decent standalone card. Primeval and Sun Titan also survive DF.
To stand up to fast decks, I figured it'll be easier just to spew out creatures to match them. I threw in an Ally package to handle early games. Sun Titan can revive them post-DF, and I'm relatively sure the Ally triggers go off too.
Don't mind the 1-ofs, I am simply trying them both to see which I like better. Then I'll try Inferno Titan. The sideboard is not complete, obviously.
So far, I have not had issues with the manabase. The escort is there for your own Force, or to stop a rush (rarely). It is also a 3/3 body on turn 2 so you can be doing *something*. I haven't tried the knight in place of him yet, due to the 0/1s I play. I tried Lotus Cobra but liked Noble Hierarch better due to Exalted ability and lower CC.
The Roc Egg helps with early aggro and has nice synergy with Force. If you do not have a force, or do not want to use it, there are 6 walkers which can either provide control or beats. I went with Ajani over Chandra due to the casting cost.
I'm not sure about the oblivion rings. I don't think I need bolt due to the early chumps I can throw, and O-ring deals with pretty much anything. The Mitotic Slime is self explanatory I think: stops aggro, synergizes with Destructive Force.
Basically, I think this deck can play fine without the Destructive Force, however, I'd really like to put some card drawing in it.
EDIT: added a sideboard
Played some more games, and Leyline of Ivory Mask is the key card vs Jund and RDW. I still don't know what to slide into the board against UW and U/eldrazi, so the Autumn Veils are temporary. Roc Egg goes out, it is useless, and Ajani is terrific. Leyline and Ajani shine vs both RDW and Jund, and the matchups (at least so far) have been fairly easy post-board. The only game I lost was vs Mono Black, though I don't have a sideboard plan for that yet.
As an aside, has anyone tried Jinxed Idol vs control? My thoughts are that it could be good, but I don't know how many O-rings they can afford to spend dealing with it.
I think you are adding too many lands. 21 is too little, agreed, but 27-28? Thats far too much. You are fetching, sure, but in reality, unlike mythic, everything you play is not a threat (and your lands shouldn't be either, as Man Lands do not belong in a deck that is hellbent on destroying 5 at a time). You are ramping to a 7 mana spell, but if you are running Cultivate, Rampant Growth, etc... its not very hard to hit 7. Seven is not especially harder to hit then 6, and wildfire decks from Timespiral era were running roughly 24 lands, and 8-12 excellerents. That leaves you with roughly 50% mana/accelerants. You really only NEED to hit 3 lands to consistently be able to ramp. I think the correct number for this deck is probably closer to 25 than 27, depending on how many ramp spells you run.
Also, I think there is a huge UNDERemphasis on PW's, and I believe if you want a successful list, then you are going to need to be running PW's instead of large monsters. They fill the SAME role as a Large Dude.
The problem using planeswalkers is that the majority of your opponents will use them as well, probably making them useless most of the time: best thing to do would be to use Chandra Nalaar, as it is the less used, yet powerfull, walker available.
I'm actually working on a list abusing Terastodon, since it can survive DF and solves many problem of this deck, mainly Eldrazi Monument, planeswalker, also denying other mana accelerant in a pseudo mirror.
I'll post it after some serious testing
I don't think having your opponents playing PW's is a serious reason to exclude them as the primary road to victory. I mean... if it was, then I think standard would be completely devoid of them right now...
Garruk and Chandra are underplayed right now, and Sarkhon Vol is non-existent. Jace, the Mindsculpter is heavily played, but very much powerful enough to be stupid to not include... if playing blue. All are very real ways to win games, and once resolved, if played correctly, will be either "answer me or lose" as the next turn you will also resolving your Destructive Force.
Has anyone tried running obstinate baloth in this deck yet? It sounds like a good option against anything running blightning. The lifegain definitely helps against anything red too.
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4. Metal Gear Solid
3. Super Mario 64
2. Ocarina of Time
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^ Seriously, play it and thank me later.
Why would you not run Baloth in this? The most competitive lists I've seen are using Baloth main. It's a 4/4 wall that gives you 4 life and Blightning protection.
No matter what color combination you're running, I'd suggest squeezing in some borderposts. Nothing like having three 'lands' plus your other mana artifacts still standing after a Destructive Force.
While DF is a nice card to pave the path to victory, I think the deck should be able to survive/win on its own without DF, hence the lack of ramp.
Since I'm running Naya colours, KOTQ is an auto-include for awesome synergy with DF while being a decent standalone card. Primeval and Sun Titan also survive DF.
To stand up to fast decks, I figured it'll be easier just to spew out creatures to match them. I threw in an Ally package to handle early games. Sun Titan can revive them post-DF, and I'm relatively sure the Ally triggers go off too.
This deck seems like a bad naya midrage with destructive force thrown in. That'd be fine too, if DF was armageddon. Unfortunately, it deals 5 to everything. That seems to throw a wrench in your plans.
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Long time lurker, first time poster here.First I would like to say "Hello" to everyone. I love the idea of a Wildfire like card being back in Standard. This is a 3-color budget deck I was working on using Destructive Force.
Can anyone run down the sort of advantages/disadvantages they are having with their UR lists. I've been trying GR, and Naya colors but I haven't been satisfied with the results(sorry I don't have a list available at the moment).
The biggest worry I have is how the deck handles aggro. On the other hand, I like the sort of planeswalkers it can utilize and the advantage of Mana Leak and other counterspells.
I cant format right now but I am running Regress/Demolish for land denial and Lightning Bolt/Mana Leak as a permission suite. I need a little more time to get my list finalized before I post. Not sure if I want to go with PW or the Titan's. So far I like the LD/Denial package more than the creature based or creature sweeper based decks. As I see it the best route in the meta seems to be a more flexible list until we get a defined top tier of decks. Maybe I am wrong, well I am probably wrong, but I am getting good results against newer decks and the old top tier stuff.
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In case I didn't tell you, I don't care about your opinion I just want your facts. And not the facts that make you seem smart. I want the ones that are actual facts.
I've been trying GR, and Naya colors but I haven't been satisfied with the results(sorry I don't have a list available at the moment).
The biggest worry I have is how the deck handles aggro.
I run GWR. I handle aggro with Dauntless Escort, KotR, O-Ring, and Ajani. Ajani is simply amazing. In fact, I have a much easier time with aggro than control. Aggro can't do anything about me tapping, blocking, and destroying their creatures. So far, I've been very pleased with how the deck plays against fast decks (RDW, Jund...). I tried Roc Egg as well, and that does a number on aggro decks. Blightning does hurt, but I do not see a slot for the Baloth since it is only 4/4, and doesn't synergize well with the rest of the deck.
Overall, I'm happy with my matches. I've played close to 20 games, tweaking the deck here and there. In my experience, the finishers/titans are the least important - I've always managed to finish with tokens (slime, garruk), ajani, or dauntless/kotr. I've even thought about taking them out and just putting in a Sword of Vengeance.
My biggest worry is how to sideboard properly. Overall, I'd say I'm about 15-5 with the deck (in matches), however more matches were 2-1 than 2-0.
My list originally had Obstinate Baloth in the side. I found I was bringing them for almost everything except the UW matchup, so Ive since main-decked them. This has helped with my aggro matchup a ton.
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Just to give you guys ideas ... mono red hits the top of its curve at 3 if you dont count Unearths and Kicked spells and they run 24. Were looking to top out at 7 on turn FIVE. We need at least 26. Proably closer to 28.
he has 21 lands +4 borderposts to bring the count of zero-mana playable mana sources up to 25.
he also has 4 chalices, 4 rampant growth, and 4 cultivate so thats alot of ramping as well.
i'm not saying his setup is the correct one, but at least give him the benefit of counting correctly. he's not at just 21 mana sources. its quite a bit more than that.
One note about my testing so far. Im loving the Oracle + Jace combination in this deck just as much as in Turboland. It can give you so much CA, which this deck just loves.
I havent tested yet but if the list shows to need more mana 2 spells can be easily replaced for lands. 27 seems like a reasonable number. And yea no offense but next time can you read the whole list before critizicing? Youll save yourself some embarrasing posts
4 Raging Ravine
4 Rootbound Crag
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn
8 Forest
4 Mountain
Creatures
4 Goblin Ruinblaster
4 Lotus Cobra
4 Birds of Paradise
3 Primeval Titan
2 Inferno Titan
3 Destructive Force
4 Everflowing Chalice
4 Cultivate
3 Roiling Terrain
3 Garruk Wildspeaker
4 Autumn's Veil
11 ?
Access to a turn 3 titan followed up with a turn 4 Destructive Force is basically game against any deck in the format. It has the explosiveness of Mythic which I like, and its ability to attack what every deck needs (lands) ensures its always ahead in the game. Even if you have the early mana dorks destroyed it can slowroll the gameplan out to shut you down of any and all mana with the Ruinblasters and Roiling Terrain before the Destructive Force.
The only card I know I want in the board is Autumn's Veil. The other slots are up for grabs.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=9733836#post9733836
The list in the post above yours only has 21 lands as well. It wasnt a call out directly on you but several of the lists in this thread.
I would honestly love for a Destructive Force archetype to make it to tier 1 (its very much a style a card that Ive always enjoyed playing with) and for us to even have a reasonable shot at it, we cant be messing around with lists that are going to stumble on mana every other game.
5 Plains
4 Forest
3 Mountain
4 Arid Mesa
3 Jungle Shrine
3 Sunpetal Grove
2 Raging Ravine
Creatures: 27
4 Hada Freeblade
4 Kabira Evangel
4 Kazandu Blademaster
4 Knight of the New Reliquary
4 Primeval Titan
4 Sun Titan
3 Dauntless Escort
4 Destructive Force
3 Condemn
2 Naya Charm
3 Celestial Purge
3 Combustion
3 Tuktuk Scrapper
2 Naturalise
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Pithing Needle
While DF is a nice card to pave the path to victory, I think the deck should be able to survive/win on its own without DF, hence the lack of ramp.
Since I'm running Naya colours, KOTQ is an auto-include for awesome synergy with DF while being a decent standalone card. Primeval and Sun Titan also survive DF.
To stand up to fast decks, I figured it'll be easier just to spew out creatures to match them. I threw in an Ally package to handle early games. Sun Titan can revive them post-DF, and I'm relatively sure the Ally triggers go off too.
BW BW Nuisances
RGW Naya Neo Wildfire
WUBRG 5C Super Friends
What about something like this?
3 Rootbound Crag
4 Arid Mesa
3 Sunpetal Grove
3 Mountain
3 Jungle Shrine
3 Plains
6 Forest
// Creatures
4 Dauntless Escort
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Mitotic Slime
4 Roc Egg
4 Noble Hierarch
1 Rampaging Baloths
1 Primeval Titan
4 Destructive Force
3 Ajani Vengeant
3 Garruk Wildspeaker
3 Oblivion Ring
3 Autumn's Veil
2 Day of Judgment
3 Celestial Purge
3 Qasali Pridemage
4 Leyline of Sanctity
Don't mind the 1-ofs, I am simply trying them both to see which I like better. Then I'll try Inferno Titan. The sideboard is not complete, obviously.
So far, I have not had issues with the manabase. The escort is there for your own Force, or to stop a rush (rarely). It is also a 3/3 body on turn 2 so you can be doing *something*. I haven't tried the knight in place of him yet, due to the 0/1s I play. I tried Lotus Cobra but liked Noble Hierarch better due to Exalted ability and lower CC.
The Roc Egg helps with early aggro and has nice synergy with Force. If you do not have a force, or do not want to use it, there are 6 walkers which can either provide control or beats. I went with Ajani over Chandra due to the casting cost.
I'm not sure about the oblivion rings. I don't think I need bolt due to the early chumps I can throw, and O-ring deals with pretty much anything. The Mitotic Slime is self explanatory I think: stops aggro, synergizes with Destructive Force.
Basically, I think this deck can play fine without the Destructive Force, however, I'd really like to put some card drawing in it.
EDIT: added a sideboard
Played some more games, and Leyline of Ivory Mask is the key card vs Jund and RDW. I still don't know what to slide into the board against UW and U/eldrazi, so the Autumn Veils are temporary. Roc Egg goes out, it is useless, and Ajani is terrific. Leyline and Ajani shine vs both RDW and Jund, and the matchups (at least so far) have been fairly easy post-board. The only game I lost was vs Mono Black, though I don't have a sideboard plan for that yet.
As an aside, has anyone tried Jinxed Idol vs control? My thoughts are that it could be good, but I don't know how many O-rings they can afford to spend dealing with it.
Also, I think there is a huge UNDERemphasis on PW's, and I believe if you want a successful list, then you are going to need to be running PW's instead of large monsters. They fill the SAME role as a Large Dude.
I don't think having your opponents playing PW's is a serious reason to exclude them as the primary road to victory. I mean... if it was, then I think standard would be completely devoid of them right now...
Garruk and Chandra are underplayed right now, and Sarkhon Vol is non-existent. Jace, the Mindsculpter is heavily played, but very much powerful enough to be stupid to not include... if playing blue. All are very real ways to win games, and once resolved, if played correctly, will be either "answer me or lose" as the next turn you will also resolving your Destructive Force.
Best video games of all time:
4. Metal Gear Solid
3. Super Mario 64
2. Ocarina of Time
1. Cave Story
^ Seriously, play it and thank me later.
T3 Baloth
T4 Titan
T5 Force
T6 GG.
11x Mountain
10x Island
4x Scalding Tarn
Creatures (3)
2x Inferno Titan
1x Frost Titan
Spells (26)
4x Destructive Force
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Mana Leak
4x Khalni Gem
4x Everflowing Chalice
2x Jace's Ingenuity
2x Dreamstone Hedron
2x Voltaic Key
3x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2x Chandra Nalaar
2x Tezzeret the Seeker
4x Negate
3x All is Dust
3x Reverberate
3x Into the Roil
2x Comet Storm
I agree with Gamester, PW's are simply too powerful to ignore.
4x Wildfield Borderpost
4x Arid Mesa
4x Sunpetal Grove
4x Plains
4x Mountain
4x Everflowing Chalice
4x Khalni Gem
2x Dreamstone Hedron
4x Day of Judgment
4x Destructive Force
4x Intimidation Bolt
3x Banefire
4x Naya Charm
3x Ajani Vengeant
▲
▲ ▲
This deck seems like a bad naya midrage with destructive force thrown in. That'd be fine too, if DF was armageddon. Unfortunately, it deals 5 to everything. That seems to throw a wrench in your plans.
4 Arid Mesa
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Plains (1)
4 Island (1)
5 Mountain (1)
Creatures - 2
2 Sun Titan
3 Ajani Vengeant
2 Tezzeret the Seeker
3 Jace Beleren
Artifact Mana - 10
4 Fieldmist Borderpost
2 Veinfire Borderpost
4 Everflowing Chalice
1 Pithing Needle
1 Brittle Effigy
4 Destructive Force
3 Oblivion Ring
3 Condemn
3 Lightning Bolt
4 Mana Leak
1 Scepter of Dominance
Obviously this deck is missing Jace, the Mind Sculptor and Gideon Jura, however I think Jace Beleren and Sun Titan will do fine until I can afford the big guns.
Any constructive criticism will be welcomed.
The biggest worry I have is how the deck handles aggro. On the other hand, I like the sort of planeswalkers it can utilize and the advantage of Mana Leak and other counterspells.
I cant format right now but I am running Regress/Demolish for land denial and Lightning Bolt/Mana Leak as a permission suite. I need a little more time to get my list finalized before I post. Not sure if I want to go with PW or the Titan's. So far I like the LD/Denial package more than the creature based or creature sweeper based decks. As I see it the best route in the meta seems to be a more flexible list until we get a defined top tier of decks. Maybe I am wrong, well I am probably wrong, but I am getting good results against newer decks and the old top tier stuff.
Cockatrice username: Blackcat77
I run GWR. I handle aggro with Dauntless Escort, KotR, O-Ring, and Ajani. Ajani is simply amazing. In fact, I have a much easier time with aggro than control. Aggro can't do anything about me tapping, blocking, and destroying their creatures. So far, I've been very pleased with how the deck plays against fast decks (RDW, Jund...). I tried Roc Egg as well, and that does a number on aggro decks. Blightning does hurt, but I do not see a slot for the Baloth since it is only 4/4, and doesn't synergize well with the rest of the deck.
Overall, I'm happy with my matches. I've played close to 20 games, tweaking the deck here and there. In my experience, the finishers/titans are the least important - I've always managed to finish with tokens (slime, garruk), ajani, or dauntless/kotr. I've even thought about taking them out and just putting in a Sword of Vengeance.
My biggest worry is how to sideboard properly. Overall, I'd say I'm about 15-5 with the deck (in matches), however more matches were 2-1 than 2-0.