I play the deck myself and its great. I actually just won an auction on ebay for my Xiahou dun lol. Finally get to put one in.
Anyway the hardest multiplayer games involve those with a couple of blue players because they are mainly playing combo. And if you don't stop them soon they will combo off relatively quickly. This is bolstered by heavy artifact ramp and various time walk effects.
What are your experiences with the Niv Mizzets, Mono blue generals, etc..?
- One of my opponents played Keldon Twilight and I nearly jumped out of my seat.
- During my turn I happily sacrificed my Solemn Simulacrum to draw a card.
- Then during each end step of the opponent before me I made a Solemn Simulacrum with my Mimic Vat. This allowed me to both ramp my mana and sacrifice Solemn Simulacrum to draw a card on each of my turns. Because of this I had a hand full of cards and a board full of lands.
- I had played an Oblivion Stone and all my permanents had a fate counter on them. This kept the board clear of danger. I also decided to keep a few other random permanents protected to keep people happy.
- In retaliation he killed my Duplicant...which was a huge mistake. I removed it with my Mimic Vat.
- Eventually people started to see the problem which my board presented.
- I played a Scroll Rack with 3 fetchlands on the board.
- I was looking for the strongest player at the table...and I realized it was the guy sitting next to me playing Scion of the Ur-Dragon. I looked to make a pact. He said that he could produce lethal damage to all 4 other opponents if I would not break my Oblivion Stone. He also showed me Living Death...should I try to betray him.
- Thanks to Crucible of Fire and 2 Coat of Arms on the table...from 2 other sources...his 16 dragons were very clearly lethal. As he tapped them all everyone looked to me for protection...I gave none. By him attacking he essentially gave me the game...even though he didn't know it. I will get to that in a minute.
- Every scooped up their cards after someone feigned the idea that they had Safe Passage. I almost had a heart attack when he joke about having it. But he didn't.
- Without a creature on the board I told him that I have lethal. I had Sorin Markov and Corrupt in hand with 10 Snow-Covered Swamps in play. But I was looking for the EPIC win. Thanks to my mana multipliers I had 20+ mana. I had 3 tutors in hand so...I had access to whatever combo I wanted.
- In the end I decided that the Sorin Markov + Corrupt route was the safest and quickest...so I did that and won.
I honestly believe that this deck is a monster. Barring massive amounts of Artifact removal...this deck can win in almost any environment.
I'm starting to find the bolded part to be truth as well.
Great write up about your previous experiences. I'm still working on my wirte up :(, but it is coming along smoothly.
I quote a conversation I had with ImAChampion, just to use as an example of how the deck is going for me.
The deck has been playing amazingly well. Seriously, the deck my not have evolved like we originally were talking about, but I have never been happier with the deck and how it is playing. I have a friend who doesn't understand why I don't play Ob as fast as possible every game, and start popping fetchlands. I'm pretty sure if he played the deck, he wouldn't know what to do with himself.
Geth, Lord of the Vault has won me several games now. The pure advantage he can generate is unfair.
Example:
Geth for :4mana::symb: to get a Solemn Simulacrum, on the mill a Vesuvan Doppelganger hits the players graveyard.
Geth for :5mana::symb:, get the doppelganger copying the Solemn. Next turn I won with beats from Geth and my 2x Solemns.
Also Mimic Vat is the nuts. I had a game crippling play that looked like this.
Vat in play, cast Sundering Titan, Diabolic Edict myself, put Titan in the vat, create a token, swing, token goes away. Four Sundering Titan triggers in one turn. UGH, I lost one swamp
So I hope to have the write up soon, need to play the deck a few more times so I can be happy with the write up.
I play the deck myself and its great. I actually just won an auction on ebay for my Xiahou dun lol. Finally get to put one in.
Anyway the hardest multiplayer games involve those with a couple of blue players because they are mainly playing combo. And if you don't stop them soon they will combo off relatively quickly. This is bolstered by heavy artifact ramp and various time walk effects.
What are your experiences with the Niv Mizzets, Mono blue generals, etc..?
I play the deck myself and its great. I actually just won an auction on ebay for my Xiahou dun lol. Finally get to put one in.
Anyway the hardest multiplayer games involve those with a couple of blue players because they are mainly playing combo. And if you don't stop them soon they will combo off relatively quickly. This is bolstered by heavy artifact ramp and various time walk effects.
What are your experiences with the Niv Mizzets, Mono blue generals, etc..?
Kill the general as soon as it hits. As Tom said...Imp's Mischief can be a hero in this match.
Have you guys considered putting Darksteel Forge in your deck? I feel like if you get this bad boy out it becomes very hard for you to lose, considering the artifacts are such a big part of this deck.
Have you guys considered putting Darksteel Forge in your deck? I feel like if you get this bad boy out it becomes very hard for you to lose, considering the artifacts are such a big part of this deck.
hmm...I actually haven't considered it. This is a really good idea though. Thank-you.
I have though this deck was running a little land heavy...perhaps:
No problem, I am happy to help make this deck as sick as possible. It also has a pretty awesome synergy with Nevinyrral's Disk because the Disk still lives if you have the Forge out.
I will be posting my decklist and some thoughts about playing the deck shortly.
My playgroup has a significant amount of blue and five color combo which can be extremely difficult to play against. Without access to counterspells I find this sorcery based deck is just too slow at times and can simply get overwhelmed. My solutions thus far have been to add combo hate (see sideboard) and focus on land destruction to gain a resource advantage against the combo players. Any suggestions would be welcome.
This is also a very difficult deck to learn to play correctly. I have only been playing magic seriously since October 2009 and mastering control decks is still a skill I am developing. I believe I cast my tutors too frequently and do not focus on developing continuous card and mana advantage in the early/mid game.
I don't recall a time where I was terribly devastated when I lost a couple of artifacts. If you thought Rings and planar portal were clunky or were too much of a mana investment then you'll surely come to the same conclusion with this card. But of course you always get to test the card. I would like to hear how it does. I may become a believer yet. ;pp
I'll tinker around with my build. I hope to get in some playtesting this weekend.
I don't recall a time where I was terribly devastated when I lost a couple of artifacts. If you thought Rings and planar portal were clunky or were too much of a mana investment then you'll surely come to the same conclusion with this card. But of course you always get to test the card. I would like to hear how it does. I may become a believer yet. ;pp
I'll tinker around with my build. I hope to get in some playtesting this weekend.
I dunno, I am usually pretty devastated when I lose Crucible of Worlds, Extraplanar Lens or Gauntlet of Power. I am also hesitant to clear the board when I have so many artifacts down, especially when something like Crucible is on the table.
Crucible will always send out alarms. If you're lucky you'll get two uses out of it before someone blows it up. I mean its a must handle. I wouldn't want my opponent to continuously use his Crucible. Its advantage.
I don't think I would like to wait till I cast Darksteel Forge to play my gaunlet and Lens. Idk maybe its just me. I don't think the benefit is that great for a card that will most likely not see play. its a good card in decks like Sharuum because it can cheat it in and it plays a ton more artifacts that warrant its use.
This is a pretty standard list. Very close to what I run. My question is on Promise to Power. How has that been working for you? I was looking at this for my Dralnu, Lich Lord deck.
Of these cards Grim Tutor would be the least needed. It is just not worth the money. Beyond that...if you insisted on getting another tutor, Demonic Collusion is actually pretty good in this deck and Beseech the Queen isn't bad either.
As for the Fetchlands...the Mirage Cycle of Fetchlands are really good substitutes. Bad River & Rocky Tar Pit. Until you get the Onslaught Duals...these would be good place holders.
My playgroup has a significant amount of blue and five color combo which can be extremely difficult to play against. Without access to counterspells I find this sorcery based deck is just too slow at times and can simply get overwhelmed. My solutions thus far have been to add combo hate (see sideboard) and focus on land destruction to gain a resource advantage against the combo players. Any suggestions would be welcome.
This is why so many people hate the color Blue. It is very difficult to learn how to play against a counter heavy deck. The first thing to do is to understand that are simply playing variations of Terror, Shatter, and other basic destroy effects. Once you understand this...you can plan for it and play around it. As much as I may love to say that this deck is full of 99 Great Cards...there are situations in game where some of them are worth less than others. Sometimes it is worth baiting your opponent. For instance. Let's say that you really want to push out your Crucible of Worlds. Perhaps you could lead with a Grave Titan. Odds are someone is going to counter that if they are holding a counter spell. If they don't counter it...odds are they don't have the spell and you can cast your Crucible of Worlds. If they do have the counterspell...you baited them into countering the spell you really didn't need and got the spell that you did. Or...my favorite is to be holding Yawgmoth's Will. Let them counter your spell and play it and many more afterwards.
As I said earlier though. This deck is a reactive deck. You should almost never make the first move. You are going to be depending on your opponents to do what they do best...try and win. The only time that you need to step in is when things start to get out of control. <---This is usually followed by a "Yeah this is getting out of hand." Let the table understand that you are doing them all a favor. When in reality you are spending only necessary resources while they spend all of theirs.
This is also a very difficult deck to learn to play correctly. I have only been playing magic seriously since October 2009 and mastering control decks is still a skill I am developing. I believe I cast my tutors too frequently and do not focus on developing continuous card and mana advantage in the early/mid game.
I always keep my options open. I hold the tutors until needed. When I say needed I mean the following things are at the ready:
Just another note...sometimes Geth, Lord of the Vault's best target is Expedition Map from your opponent's graveyard. Thats usually a big target for me.
I don't recall a time where I was terribly devastated when I lost a couple of artifacts. If you thought Rings and planar portal were clunky or were too much of a mana investment then you'll surely come to the same conclusion with this card. But of course you always get to test the card. I would like to hear how it does. I may become a believer yet. ;pp
I'll tinker around with my build. I hope to get in some playtesting this weekend.
It isn't that you would be devastated by having your artifacts destroyed...it is just another obstacle that your opponent is going to have to face. If I had this in my deck the other day when I had Duplicant hiding under my Mimic Vat with a tutor in hand...I could have completely locked up the game. But it got destroyed by a Ingot Chewer. Lets not even bring up the Nevinyrral's Disk interaction. Also it makes Oblivion Stone much better. No need to wait around putting counters on your stuff anymore.
Crucible will always send out alarms. If you're lucky you'll get two uses out of it before someone blows it up. I mean its a must handle. I wouldn't want my opponent to continuously use his Crucible. Its advantage.
Just a note...if someone ever pulled out the Strip Mine combo in our multiplayer games...that person would die. We have an unwritten rule about this. Because of this Crucible of Worlds isn't an auto kill. It is still ridiculously powerful...but managable.
I don't think I would like to wait till I cast Darksteel Forge to play my gaunlet and Lens. Idk maybe its just me. I don't think the benefit is that great for a card that will most likely not see play. its a good card in decks like Sharuum because it can cheat it in and it plays a ton more artifacts that warrant its use.
But Maybe i should test the card for myself hehe.
You don't have to. This is just insurance. If your opponent wants to knock off your artifacts early...there isn't much you can do about it. But those that stick around and those that you play after a Darksteel Forge become big deals to your opponents.
[QUOTE=Tom Servo;/comments/4923273]Regarding Eternity Vessel, never have thought of that, and with Necropotence, as you said, could get pretty busted, I will test this out.
screw eternity vessel.....try venser's journal! no discarding AND you gain life for how many cards you have?? so, pay 20 to necro, dont discard, and every turn after gain a whole lotta life!
I understand loosing lake of the dead for Rings of Brighthearth but I am not convinved by darksteel forge. By the time you are at 9 mana loosing an artifact can be a tad annoying, but there is so much else you could do I dont think it is worth dedicating a 9 mana slot to preventing it. Sure you might loose crucible of worlds but you could play Myojin of Night's Reach instead for example, ditching their hands instead. Just my opinion of course.
Saving a random artifact from being destroyed isn't worth it. Having a reusable Nevinyrral's Disk whenever you want that also saves random artifacts...is worth it.
This deck has a lot of utility artifacts. I really don't see the problem. Getting to 9 mana in this deck is consistantly achievable by turn 5. I think having a singleton target to tutor for that sets up a blow out is worth it.
Nice list. How has Necrologia and Promise of Power been for you? Promise of Power seems like a super Ambition's Cost. For only 1 more mana you get 2 more cards with the opportunity to get a finisher. This has been on my radar for a while now. I think this might warrant some testing.
I would also STRONGLY SUGGEST putting in Sorin Markov. I can't count how many times he has setup a win for me. 99% of the time he sets the strongest person to 10 life only to get blown out by Exsanguinate. Here is how my games end all to often now.
Turn 2
- Play and crack a Fetchland dropping a different player by 6.
- Swing at that player dropping him by 15 more.
- Cast a board lethal Exsanguinate.
This same thing can be done on the same turn...and has also happened a lot. But you have to have Cabal Coffers + Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth + Deserted Temple in play. If you have this in play...do it all in 1 turn.
Necrologia and promise of power are amazing. I cannot count the number of times I tutor for Reliquary Tower, necrologia for 15 then recover with a large consume spirit, I find it much more usefull than sign in blood or ambitions cost because it can be much bigger when the situation calls for it. Same argument for promise of power - I rarly make a token but in the situations when I do its often a very very big token indeed with some greaves ready for it.
After tinkering with Necrologia...I just don't think it is up to par. It is to restrictive on when you can cast it.
Sorin Markov is a playgroup call. Our EDH is often very very casual and people dont like the massive life loss, and argue that it is not much different to Kokusho, however I have one and when I play anywhere else he goes back in.
EDIT: Also, wondering if you have tested / have any thoughts on contamination? In a meta without other mono black control decks it seems like at worst a time warp for one less, at best a complete game finisher.
Contamination is a great example of why I wish Xathrid Demon was a legend. There are so many good abilities like this in Black...but not a great legend that takes advantage of the sacrifice. Contamination is a card that I have been trying to find a home for but just can't find one. Ironically I think that a color hoser belongs in a multi-color deck. I think Savra, Queen of the Golgari is the best fit for the card.
This deck just doesn't run enough creatures. In order to fit it into the deck you would need to shy away from the MBC list and focus more on a different variant. As I said above though...I think Contamination belongs in a Savra, Queen of the Golgari deck.
I am actually really really curious on this subject of whether you guys actually HAVE Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed? Cause it seems like everyone but me has the 165 dollar card.
I am using this deck primer as a base for my Geth deck. So my differences are pretty much more spotted removal and I'm playing much much more artifact mana accel. But beyond that the difference is switching Geth and Ob's places as general and creature. The deck seems really solid and I really like the synergy with the whole it that betrays and bloodchief ascension thing along with pox and death cloud.
I have also been reading some peoples reasons for why cards are good and some "example" situations. I would love to point out that half of them make no sense unless you are playing against goldfish and assume that your opponent wont block a 9/9 general or try to remove it let alone block a 15/15 general or try to remove it...
I think the strong point of the deck is that it just disrupts the enemy so much that it's hard to come back. I like the idea and I think personally that yea the idea is ob being the general but I think with the extra removal I'll be good with Geth, but will probably play around with the whole ob as the general thing too. Good little Primer for the general. I like how the deck can obviously with with or without the general *can't count the number of times that I've seen decks that don't even use the general or the general is the only way to win with the deck*
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Standard: Esper Spirits-WUB
Modern: Bant Geist-WUG
Legacy: Reanimator-UB-WRG
EDH:
Ramirez DePietro: Pirate Themed-UB
Riku of Two Reflections: "Oops I Win"-URG
I am actually really really curious on this subject of whether you guys actually HAVE Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed? Cause it seems like everyone but me has the 165 dollar card.
WOOT!!! I picked mine up for really cheap. I didn't realize that the price jumped so high. Go Go EDH price hikes!!!
I am using this deck primer as a base for my Geth deck. So my differences are pretty much more spotted removal and I'm playing much much more artifact mana accel. But beyond that the difference is switching Geth and Ob's places as general and creature. The deck seems really solid and I really like the synergy with the whole it that betrays and bloodchief ascension thing along with pox and death cloud.
As I see it...there are only 2 ways to build a Mono Black EDH deck. 1) Mono Black Control. 2) Reanimator. My point being that this deck will work for almost any Mono Black General. The manabase can be adjusted quite a bit if you aren't using Ob Nixilis, the Fallen. Not a bunch of use for the Panoramas without Ob Nixlis, the Fallen.
I have also been reading some peoples reasons for why cards are good and some "example" situations. I would love to point out that half of them make no sense unless you are playing against goldfish and assume that your opponent wont block a 9/9 general or try to remove it let alone block a 15/15 general or try to remove it...
I think the strong point of the deck is that it just disrupts the enemy so much that it's hard to come back. I like the idea and I think personally that yea the idea is ob being the general but I think with the extra removal I'll be good with Geth, but will probably play around with the whole ob as the general thing too. Good little Primer for the general. I like how the deck can obviously with with or without the general *can't count the number of times that I've seen decks that don't even use the general or the general is the only way to win with the deck*
This deck doesn't need the General to win. However he does give us another tool to use as a way to win.
Would you care to post your list? Even though the general is different...the concept is probably very similar.
Sure here's the list I'm building, and as you said yea I'm not running the panorama's because if I'm not using Ob as my General then there's no real point in a mono black deck. *Sorry in advance, you guys are nice and tidy with your list, I don't have the deck infront of me so the list will be by catagory but not by alphabetical order as well...*
I believe that is the decklist, not entirely sure since I don't have it infront of me. As I said there are a lot of similarities with the deck. I like how it looks on paper right now, I have to finish getting some of the cards for it so I can get to testing with it.
And again, yup, was just saying I liked how the deck was not linear enough so that all you do is use Ob, or just not use him, in that he can be a tool of destruction, or distraction, or whatever else he is needed to be used for.
On my little rant I was specifically pointing out your arguement for Sorin Markov on this page above, about the two turn kill you stated that you hit the player for 9, then again for 15, which I find tough to believe since no one is going to just take that damage... ever... unless for some reason they have no board at all or you luckily got whispersilk cloak on Ob. But I understand the value of the card and the arguement, I was just pointing out that sometimes we don't always make sense. I dunno just pointing it out haha
Edit: if someone notices that I counted wrong or something with my list just tell me so I can fix it -Thanks
I believe that is the decklist, not entirely sure since I don't have it infront of me. As I said there are a lot of similarities with the deck. I like how it looks on paper right now, I have to finish getting some of the cards for it so I can get to testing with it.
I actually had someone at the shop ask if I planned on switching to Geth, Lord of the Vault. I can see his strength as a general. I think it is kind of funny that many people are pushing for mill with him...when this route is a much much better way to go. Very nice list. The large amount of single target removal spells seem slightly odd though.
And again, yup, was just saying I liked how the deck was not linear enough so that all you do is use Ob, or just not use him, in that he can be a tool of destruction, or distraction, or whatever else he is needed to be used for.
Yep. Depending on what people are doing determines how I win.
If I am playing against a heavy counter environment...I will usually bait Ob Nixilis, the Fallen until they make a mistake...and then I will go to the main threat...Exsanguinate.
If I see no real threats...I will hold onto some mass removal and pit everyone against each other...then scavage my way into a huge Exsanguinate.
On my little rant I was specifically pointing out your arguement for Sorin Markov on this page above, about the two turn kill you stated that you hit the player for 9, then again for 15, which I find tough to believe since no one is going to just take that damage... ever... unless for some reason they have no board at all or you luckily got whispersilk cloak on Ob. But I understand the value of the card and the arguement, I was just pointing out that sometimes we don't always make sense. I dunno just pointing it out haha
Whenever I finally decide to make my move for the win...I will win with 1 of the 2 ways. The above listed way with Ob Nixilis, the Fallen...or simply wipe the game with Exsanguinate. When you have an unblockable untargetable Ob Nixilis, the Fallen on the board...you can do just about anything you want. Honestly...that is how I win a vast majority of my games. The above is not an over estimation...it is actual game play.
Yea I like my list better than stupid mill decks, I like the spot removal better at least for my meta because I feel it's just better than a board wipe because I can kill someone's big pet, then take it and be happy with it. I really like the fact that it's more of a Instant speed I control the politics thing *because our meta is EXTREMELY politically based* because it's really awesome to hang a Rend Flesh over someone elses general to get them to do what you want. *or other creature or such* but as I said if I like spot removal but if I find something to put in it's place that is better then I sure will.
Yes I don't see the appeal of making Geth a mill deck... I see no point in it since black has no good mill cards and it's just easier to just kill threats, steal it with geth and maybe get lucky that something else mills into their GY. I have a question though, because I'm not exactly sure of the process of generals dying, do they hit the yard, then the player decides to put it in the general's zone? Cause if that is the way it works, then that'd be awesome cause I can sneak away with doom blading a general then stealing it as it hits the yard. If it doesn't work that way just tell me so I don't look stupid at the table haha!
About how you say your games usually end that way in that you can drain life for bunches, and attack with Ob seems really odd to me still, are you playing against people who know what threats are? do they need a "Target" hat so they know to get rid of your general or wipe the board when you get into position? or have they not realized how to do it? Cause it seems like they are doing it wrong. But either way good job if you can do that, it certainly wouldn't fly at my store people would be all over you once you play Ob or start playing sorin etc.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Standard: Esper Spirits-WUB
Modern: Bant Geist-WUG
Legacy: Reanimator-UB-WRG
EDH:
Ramirez DePietro: Pirate Themed-UB
Riku of Two Reflections: "Oops I Win"-URG
Yea I like my list better than stupid mill decks, I like the spot removal better at least for my meta because I feel it's just better than a board wipe because I can kill someone's big pet, then take it and be happy with it. I really like the fact that it's more of a Instant speed I control the politics thing *because our meta is EXTREMELY politically based* because it's really awesome to hang a Rend Flesh over someone elses general to get them to do what you want. *or other creature or such* but as I said if I like spot removal but if I find something to put in it's place that is better then I sure will.
Yes I don't see the appeal of making Geth a mill deck... I see no point in it since black has no good mill cards and it's just easier to just kill threats, steal it with geth and maybe get lucky that something else mills into their GY. I have a question though, because I'm not exactly sure of the process of generals dying, do they hit the yard, then the player decides to put it in the general's zone? Cause if that is the way it works, then that'd be awesome cause I can sneak away with doom blading a general then stealing it as it hits the yard. If it doesn't work that way just tell me so I don't look stupid at the table haha!
It is up to your opponent whether the general ever touches the graveyard. If they want it to go to the General Zone...then no. Many times having a general go to the yard is a good play...but anyone seeing Geth, Lord of the Vault on the board...and still allowing it to go to the yard is a bad player.
About how you say your games usually end that way in that you can drain life for bunches, and attack with Ob seems really odd to me still, are you playing against people who know what threats are? do they need a "Target" hat so they know to get rid of your general or wipe the board when you get into position? or have they not realized how to do it? Cause it seems like they are doing it wrong. But either way good job if you can do that, it certainly wouldn't fly at my store people would be all over you once you play Ob or start playing sorin etc.
Timing. This deck is amazing at turning people on each other...forcing them to expend resources on each other. This obviously allows you to flourish. With a deck still full of must answer threats...one is going to stick. Several times the following will happen.
Anyway the hardest multiplayer games involve those with a couple of blue players because they are mainly playing combo. And if you don't stop them soon they will combo off relatively quickly. This is bolstered by heavy artifact ramp and various time walk effects.
What are your experiences with the Niv Mizzets, Mono blue generals, etc..?
I'm starting to find the bolded part to be truth as well.
Great write up about your previous experiences. I'm still working on my wirte up :(, but it is coming along smoothly.
I quote a conversation I had with ImAChampion, just to use as an example of how the deck is going for me.
So I hope to have the write up soon, need to play the deck a few more times so I can be happy with the write up.
I personally haven't encountered any big name mono-U generals, (Arcum, Clique, Erayo) but I do see Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir and Thada Adel, Acquisitor (which is annoying, ugh) on a regular basis. My best experiences against mono-U is when ever I can resolve a Death Cloud or Pox against them, but I have to make sure I am ahead when I do so. Imp's Michiefing their dumb Beacon of Tomorrows, Time Stretch, or Time Warp also helps alot. Niv-Mizzet, I have seen several times, honestly, because of how the person plays Niv-Mizzet.deck (COMBO ASAP!!!!), I find myself tutoring up Tendrils of Corruption and/or Diabolic Edict, plus Bane of the Living helps and in my list Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief also stops the dumb Niv-Combo.
[EDH] Ob Nixilis the Fallen
I have though this deck was running a little land heavy...perhaps:
-1 Lake of the Dead
+1 Darksteel Forge
Tom what do you think?
[EDH] Ob Nixilis the Fallen
No problem, I am happy to help make this deck as sick as possible. It also has a pretty awesome synergy with Nevinyrral's Disk because the Disk still lives if you have the Forge out.
I will be posting my decklist and some thoughts about playing the deck shortly.
I like this change. Very very strong. Great call maxmaceachern
1 Ob Nixilis, the Fallen
Lands
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
1 Cabal Coffers
1 Dark Depths
1 Esper Panorama
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Grixis Panorama
1 Jund Panorama
1 Marsh Flats
1 Mystifying Maze
1 Reliquary Tower
22 Swamp
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Vesuva
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Wasteland
Draw Spells and Tutors
1 Ambition's Cost
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Diabolic Tutor
1 Graveborn Muse
1 Imperial Seal
1 Necropotence
1 Phyrexian Arena
1 Promise of Power
1 Scroll Rack
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sign in Blood
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will
Sweepers
1 All is Dust
1 Bane of the Living
1 Barter in Blood
1 Damnation
1 Death Cloud
1 Decree of Pain
1 Kagemaro, First to Suffer
1 Mutilate
1 Nevinyrral's Disk
1 Pox
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Extraplanar Lens
1 Gauntlet of Power
1 Grim Monolith
1 Magus of the Coffers
1 Mana Vault
1 Mox Diamond
1 Nirkana Revenant
1 Sol Ring
1 Solemn Simulacrum
Creatures
1 Duplicant
1 Geth, Lord of the Vault
1 Grave Titan
1 It That Betrays
1 Myojin of Night's Reach
1 Nezumi Graverobber
1 Sundering Titan
1 Vampire Hexmage
1 Xiahou Dun, The One-Eyed
1 Withered Wretch
Other Spells
1 Beacon of Unrest
1 Bloodchief Ascension
1 Consume Spirit
1 Corrupt
1 Exsanguinate
1 Imp's Mischief
1 Profane Command
1 Suffer the Past
1 Tendrils of Corruption
Other Artifacts
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Expedition Map
1 Icy Manipulator
1 Lightning Greaves
1 Loxodon Warhammer
1 Mimic Vat
1 Whispersilk Cloak
Planeswalkers
1 Liliana Vess
1 Sorin Markov
1 Jester's Cap
1 Sadistic Sacrament
A few things I will add as the cards come to me:
Onslaught Fetchlands
My playgroup has a significant amount of blue and five color combo which can be extremely difficult to play against. Without access to counterspells I find this sorcery based deck is just too slow at times and can simply get overwhelmed. My solutions thus far have been to add combo hate (see sideboard) and focus on land destruction to gain a resource advantage against the combo players. Any suggestions would be welcome.
This is also a very difficult deck to learn to play correctly. I have only been playing magic seriously since October 2009 and mastering control decks is still a skill I am developing. I believe I cast my tutors too frequently and do not focus on developing continuous card and mana advantage in the early/mid game.
No problem! In the future, just call me Max.
I don't recall a time where I was terribly devastated when I lost a couple of artifacts. If you thought Rings and planar portal were clunky or were too much of a mana investment then you'll surely come to the same conclusion with this card. But of course you always get to test the card. I would like to hear how it does. I may become a believer yet. ;pp
I'll tinker around with my build. I hope to get in some playtesting this weekend.
I dunno, I am usually pretty devastated when I lose Crucible of Worlds, Extraplanar Lens or Gauntlet of Power. I am also hesitant to clear the board when I have so many artifacts down, especially when something like Crucible is on the table.
I don't think I would like to wait till I cast Darksteel Forge to play my gaunlet and Lens. Idk maybe its just me. I don't think the benefit is that great for a card that will most likely not see play. its a good card in decks like Sharuum because it can cheat it in and it plays a ton more artifacts that warrant its use.
But Maybe i should test the card for myself hehe.
Of these cards Grim Tutor would be the least needed. It is just not worth the money. Beyond that...if you insisted on getting another tutor, Demonic Collusion is actually pretty good in this deck and Beseech the Queen isn't bad either.
As for the Fetchlands...the Mirage Cycle of Fetchlands are really good substitutes. Bad River & Rocky Tar Pit. Until you get the Onslaught Duals...these would be good place holders.
This is why so many people hate the color Blue. It is very difficult to learn how to play against a counter heavy deck. The first thing to do is to understand that are simply playing variations of Terror, Shatter, and other basic destroy effects. Once you understand this...you can plan for it and play around it. As much as I may love to say that this deck is full of 99 Great Cards...there are situations in game where some of them are worth less than others. Sometimes it is worth baiting your opponent. For instance. Let's say that you really want to push out your Crucible of Worlds. Perhaps you could lead with a Grave Titan. Odds are someone is going to counter that if they are holding a counter spell. If they don't counter it...odds are they don't have the spell and you can cast your Crucible of Worlds. If they do have the counterspell...you baited them into countering the spell you really didn't need and got the spell that you did. Or...my favorite is to be holding Yawgmoth's Will. Let them counter your spell and play it and many more afterwards.
As I said earlier though. This deck is a reactive deck. You should almost never make the first move. You are going to be depending on your opponents to do what they do best...try and win. The only time that you need to step in is when things start to get out of control. <---This is usually followed by a "Yeah this is getting out of hand." Let the table understand that you are doing them all a favor. When in reality you are spending only necessary resources while they spend all of theirs.
I always keep my options open. I hold the tutors until needed. When I say needed I mean the following things are at the ready:
1. You have a mass removal spell.
2. You have a decent board resource position. <--Enough mana
3. You have the ability to get card advantage. Sensei's Divining Top, Scroll Rack, Necropotence, Geth, Lord of the Vault, Phyrexian Arena[/card]
If all of these conditions are met...sit on your tutors. You may be able to draw into what you are looking for...thus giving you a free tutor.
Also...don't be afraid to use a tutor for Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth or even Cabal Coffers. I actually do both quite often.
Just another note...sometimes Geth, Lord of the Vault's best target is Expedition Map from your opponent's graveyard. Thats usually a big target for me.
It isn't that you would be devastated by having your artifacts destroyed...it is just another obstacle that your opponent is going to have to face. If I had this in my deck the other day when I had Duplicant hiding under my Mimic Vat with a tutor in hand...I could have completely locked up the game. But it got destroyed by a Ingot Chewer. Lets not even bring up the Nevinyrral's Disk interaction. Also it makes Oblivion Stone much better. No need to wait around putting counters on your stuff anymore.
Just a note...if someone ever pulled out the Strip Mine combo in our multiplayer games...that person would die. We have an unwritten rule about this. Because of this Crucible of Worlds isn't an auto kill. It is still ridiculously powerful...but managable.
You don't have to. This is just insurance. If your opponent wants to knock off your artifacts early...there isn't much you can do about it. But those that stick around and those that you play after a Darksteel Forge become big deals to your opponents.
[EDH] Ob Nixilis the Fallen
screw eternity vessel.....try venser's journal! no discarding AND you gain life for how many cards you have?? so, pay 20 to necro, dont discard, and every turn after gain a whole lotta life!
[EDH] Ob Nixilis the Fallen
This deck has a lot of utility artifacts. I really don't see the problem. Getting to 9 mana in this deck is consistantly achievable by turn 5. I think having a singleton target to tutor for that sets up a blow out is worth it.
[EDH] Ob Nixilis the Fallen
I would also STRONGLY SUGGEST putting in Sorin Markov. I can't count how many times he has setup a win for me. 99% of the time he sets the strongest person to 10 life only to get blown out by Exsanguinate. Here is how my games end all to often now.
Two Turn Knockout
Turn 1
- Play Ob Nixils, the Fallen.
- Equip Lightning Greaves.
- Play and crack a Fetchland dropping a player by 6.
- Swing at that player dropping him by 9 more.
- Tutor for Soring Markov.
- Cast Sorin Markov. Drop the strongest player to 10.
Turn 2
- Play and crack a Fetchland dropping a different player by 6.
- Swing at that player dropping him by 15 more.
- Cast a board lethal Exsanguinate.
This same thing can be done on the same turn...and has also happened a lot. But you have to have Cabal Coffers + Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth + Deserted Temple in play. If you have this in play...do it all in 1 turn.
Like I said...Sorin Markov is AMAZING!!!
[EDH] Ob Nixilis the Fallen
Promise of Power on the other hand has been amazing. I have dropped Ambition's Cost for Promise of Power and haven't looked back. This card is really fantastic.
Yep. This card makes people hate you.
Contamination is a great example of why I wish Xathrid Demon was a legend. There are so many good abilities like this in Black...but not a great legend that takes advantage of the sacrifice. Contamination is a card that I have been trying to find a home for but just can't find one. Ironically I think that a color hoser belongs in a multi-color deck. I think Savra, Queen of the Golgari is the best fit for the card.
This deck just doesn't run enough creatures. In order to fit it into the deck you would need to shy away from the MBC list and focus more on a different variant. As I said above though...I think Contamination belongs in a Savra, Queen of the Golgari deck.
[EDH] Ob Nixilis the Fallen
I am using this deck primer as a base for my Geth deck. So my differences are pretty much more spotted removal and I'm playing much much more artifact mana accel. But beyond that the difference is switching Geth and Ob's places as general and creature. The deck seems really solid and I really like the synergy with the whole it that betrays and bloodchief ascension thing along with pox and death cloud.
I have also been reading some peoples reasons for why cards are good and some "example" situations. I would love to point out that half of them make no sense unless you are playing against goldfish and assume that your opponent wont block a 9/9 general or try to remove it let alone block a 15/15 general or try to remove it...
I think the strong point of the deck is that it just disrupts the enemy so much that it's hard to come back. I like the idea and I think personally that yea the idea is ob being the general but I think with the extra removal I'll be good with Geth, but will probably play around with the whole ob as the general thing too. Good little Primer for the general. I like how the deck can obviously with with or without the general *can't count the number of times that I've seen decks that don't even use the general or the general is the only way to win with the deck*
Modern: Bant Geist-WUG
Legacy: Reanimator-UB-WRG
EDH:
Ramirez DePietro: Pirate Themed-UB
Riku of Two Reflections: "Oops I Win"-URG
As I see it...there are only 2 ways to build a Mono Black EDH deck. 1) Mono Black Control. 2) Reanimator. My point being that this deck will work for almost any Mono Black General. The manabase can be adjusted quite a bit if you aren't using Ob Nixilis, the Fallen. Not a bunch of use for the Panoramas without Ob Nixlis, the Fallen.
Would you care to elaborate?
This deck doesn't need the General to win. However he does give us another tool to use as a way to win.
Would you care to post your list? Even though the general is different...the concept is probably very similar.
[EDH] Ob Nixilis the Fallen
Sure here's the list I'm building, and as you said yea I'm not running the panorama's because if I'm not using Ob as my General then there's no real point in a mono black deck. *Sorry in advance, you guys are nice and tidy with your list, I don't have the deck infront of me so the list will be by catagory but not by alphabetical order as well...*
1x Geth, Lord of the Vault
Artifacts: 19
1x Sol Ring
1x Expedition Map
1x Mind Stone
1x Grim Monolith
1x Gilded Lotus
1x Worn Powerstone
1x Guardian Idol
1x Everflowing Chalice
1x Coalition Relic
1x Thran Dynamo
1x Lightning Greaves
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Extraplanar Lens
1x Mimic Vat
1x Gauntlet of Power
1x Mind's Eye
1x Crucible of Worlds
1x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Nevinyrral's Disk
Creatures: 17
1x Ob Nixilis, the Fallen
1x Grave Titan
1x Graveborn Muse
1x Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief
1x It that Betrays
1x Sundering Titan
1x Shriekmaw
1x Wurmcoil Engine
1x Ink-Eyes, Servant of Oni
1x Bane of Living
1x Fleshbag Marauder
1x Myojin of Night's Reach
1x Vampire Hexmage
1x Duplicant
1x Nirkana Revenant
1x Solemn Simulacrum
1x Steel Hellkite
1x Eyeblight's Ending
1x Rend Flesh
1x Doom Blade
1x Chill to the Bone
1x Diabolic Edict
1x Slaughter Pact
Sorceries: 14
1x Promise of Power
1x All is Dust
1x Death Cloud
1x Pox
1x Mutilate
1x Barter in Blood
1x Decree of Pain
1x Damnation
1x Yawgmoth's Will
1x Ambitions Cost
1x Exsanguinate
1x Corrupt
1x Beacon of Unrest
1x Profane Command
Tutors: 4
1x Beseech the Queen
1x Diabolic Tutor
1x Demonic Tutor
1x Vampiric Tutor
Enchantments: 3
1x Bloodchief Ascension
1x Phyrexian Arena
1x Necropotence
1x Sorin Markov
1x Liliana Vess
Lands: 34
19x Swamp
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1x Dark Depths
1x Polluted Delta
1x Bloodstained Mire
1x Verdant Catacombs
1x Marsh Flats
1x Maze of Ith
1x Mystifying Maze
1x Cabal Coffers
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Wasteland
1x Strip Mine
1x Ghost Quarter
1x Reliquary Tower
1x Thawing Glaciers
I believe that is the decklist, not entirely sure since I don't have it infront of me. As I said there are a lot of similarities with the deck. I like how it looks on paper right now, I have to finish getting some of the cards for it so I can get to testing with it.
And again, yup, was just saying I liked how the deck was not linear enough so that all you do is use Ob, or just not use him, in that he can be a tool of destruction, or distraction, or whatever else he is needed to be used for.
On my little rant I was specifically pointing out your arguement for Sorin Markov on this page above, about the two turn kill you stated that you hit the player for 9, then again for 15, which I find tough to believe since no one is going to just take that damage... ever... unless for some reason they have no board at all or you luckily got whispersilk cloak on Ob. But I understand the value of the card and the arguement, I was just pointing out that sometimes we don't always make sense. I dunno just pointing it out haha
Edit: if someone notices that I counted wrong or something with my list just tell me so I can fix it -Thanks
Modern: Bant Geist-WUG
Legacy: Reanimator-UB-WRG
EDH:
Ramirez DePietro: Pirate Themed-UB
Riku of Two Reflections: "Oops I Win"-URG
Yep. Depending on what people are doing determines how I win.
If I am playing against a heavy counter environment...I will usually bait Ob Nixilis, the Fallen until they make a mistake...and then I will go to the main threat...Exsanguinate.
If I see no real threats...I will hold onto some mass removal and pit everyone against each other...then scavage my way into a huge Exsanguinate.
Whenever I finally decide to make my move for the win...I will win with 1 of the 2 ways. The above listed way with Ob Nixilis, the Fallen...or simply wipe the game with Exsanguinate. When you have an unblockable untargetable Ob Nixilis, the Fallen on the board...you can do just about anything you want. Honestly...that is how I win a vast majority of my games. The above is not an over estimation...it is actual game play.
You should be good...100 cards.
[EDH] Ob Nixilis the Fallen
Yea I like my list better than stupid mill decks, I like the spot removal better at least for my meta because I feel it's just better than a board wipe because I can kill someone's big pet, then take it and be happy with it. I really like the fact that it's more of a Instant speed I control the politics thing *because our meta is EXTREMELY politically based* because it's really awesome to hang a Rend Flesh over someone elses general to get them to do what you want. *or other creature or such* but as I said if I like spot removal but if I find something to put in it's place that is better then I sure will.
Yes I don't see the appeal of making Geth a mill deck... I see no point in it since black has no good mill cards and it's just easier to just kill threats, steal it with geth and maybe get lucky that something else mills into their GY. I have a question though, because I'm not exactly sure of the process of generals dying, do they hit the yard, then the player decides to put it in the general's zone? Cause if that is the way it works, then that'd be awesome cause I can sneak away with doom blading a general then stealing it as it hits the yard. If it doesn't work that way just tell me so I don't look stupid at the table haha!
About how you say your games usually end that way in that you can drain life for bunches, and attack with Ob seems really odd to me still, are you playing against people who know what threats are? do they need a "Target" hat so they know to get rid of your general or wipe the board when you get into position? or have they not realized how to do it? Cause it seems like they are doing it wrong. But either way good job if you can do that, it certainly wouldn't fly at my store people would be all over you once you play Ob or start playing sorin etc.
Modern: Bant Geist-WUG
Legacy: Reanimator-UB-WRG
EDH:
Ramirez DePietro: Pirate Themed-UB
Riku of Two Reflections: "Oops I Win"-URG
It is up to your opponent whether the general ever touches the graveyard. If they want it to go to the General Zone...then no. Many times having a general go to the yard is a good play...but anyone seeing Geth, Lord of the Vault on the board...and still allowing it to go to the yard is a bad player.
Timing. This deck is amazing at turning people on each other...forcing them to expend resources on each other. This obviously allows you to flourish. With a deck still full of must answer threats...one is going to stick. Several times the following will happen.
- I cast Exsanguinate for lethal.
- It gets countered.
- I cast Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed. Sacrifice him. Cast Exsanguinate for lethal.
- A random reason this doesn't pan out.
- I cast Yawgmoth's Will. Cast Exsanguinate for lethal.
- Let's also assume that this gets knocked out.
- I cast Ob Nixilis, the Fallen and start knocking people out of the game.
The point here is that this deck has so many must answer threats...if you cast this late game...it is inevitable.
[EDH] Ob Nixilis the Fallen
:symb::snow: Seizan, Perverter of Truth
[EDH] Ob Nixilis the Fallen