I'm playing anywhere from 3 to 7 Duress/IoK main depending on the list and 6 or 7 overall in the 75. If I'm looking at a heavy aggro/ramp meta then I'm more likely to go controllish in my list and play at least 6 targeted discard main, usually 4 IoK/2 Duress although sometimes 3/3. If I'm looking at a heavy control meta then I'm more likely to go with 3 or 4 Duress main and 3 IoK in the side for aggro/ramp. I'm never sorry to have targeted discard in the opening hand however I'm becoming more aware of its limitations in some matchups.
Mind Sludge is a good option against control and to a lesser extent ramp. You often do not want to let them discard an Eldrazi to put it back in their deck for Summoning Trap and it's a free discard for them as a result. Against aggro I never want to see Mind Sludge. They don't hold cards in hand unless they're useless against the current game state any way.
I like your list. It's very balanced and probably good in a random meta where you never know what you are going to see from match to match. 7 finishers is a little bit low for my tastes at this point however you have the bloodwitches in the sideboard for the games when white removal would just drive you batty otherwise.
I missed out on that. It was popular and then abandoned? Was there concrete reasoning as to why people moved away from it, or did it just seem like the usual herd mentality?
We lost Tendrils. This means 4 Sign in Blood and 6-8 fetchlands was liable to get us killed. Consuming Vapors could not replace it. At the same time, we got Grave Titan. Due to its higher mana cost, it was a sort of confluence: we now had a reason to run MBC without painlands; turn four Diabolic Tutor/Consuming Vapors/Vampire Hexmage, turn five Mind Sludge, turn six Grave Titan.
Oh, and there was the rather short-lived Phylactery Lich. xDDD
I did try the Tutor toolbox idea (if that is what you are referring to) and it seemed too slow and also vulnerable against control, which is a bad thing in most matchups. It's not that I've totally abandoned it, but I have been pretty cavalier about changing to a radically new decklist every week in order to try more ideas. Continuing losses to U/x control have prompted those weekly changes.
I consider the toolbox approach to be wrong. Diabolic Tutor ought to improve our flexibility, allowing us to react to threats quickly. It is not meant to find silver bullets like singleton Ratchet Bomb, Wurmcoil Engine, Memoricide and Haunting Echoes. Though it can, it is, as you said, slow and vulnerable. Better to have 3 Ratchet Bombs and 2 Diabolic Tutors than 1 and 2.
I changed a lot of decks as well. I went from MBC "Proliferate" to MBC "Mimic Vat" to MBC "Mind Sludge." The first was too exposed and slow; the second was too clumsy; the third is just right. You can look at my history for the lists.
Shouldn't it be in against UW though? It's MD because my MD was pushed towards fighting UW as much as possible. I have the 2 Vapors in the SB to switch for the 2 Effigy in games 2&3 where needed; granted, that sideboarding switch is planned out in most of my matchups.
Sure, it can slip under, but they will play around it. The key to UW Control is to kill Jace and attack the hand. Playing a ground war dooms you to failure. Having 2 Diabolic Tutor and 3 Mind Sludge would be like having 5 Mind Sludge. Most UW Control has 6-8 counterspells and has to spend mana to kill Nantuko Shade or drop Planeswalkers; sooner or later, you can smash their hand.
Of course, you deal with Leyline. A lot of Leylines. In fact, if I had so much hate directed toward me, I personally would really consider a different deck.
I guess a lot of the time the Vapors would still work against UW. The Mimic Vat/Effigy thing is also true, I had thought about that and it has been an issue a couple times. I may make the swap. It looks like another instance where I'm not losing much against UW to be a lot better against the field.
I like Mimic Vat. It forces them to dig for Into the Roil before they can play a creature. It buys a lot of time.
Dropping it to 6 fetches, since I was leaning toward doing that anyway. The probabilities make me want more than 4 in order for the fetches to have any significant chance of happening with GD. Actual practice may reveal something different, who knows.
Anyone else want to throw in their hat as to a sideboard plan against a Frost Titan / Wurmcoil finisher version of UB control? Mainly, which of my cards are weakest in that matchup? I want too many of them...
Doom Blade and Mimic Vat. That or just outrace him. Or Brittle Effigy, as you have already done.
The key to UW Control is to kill Jace and attack the hand. Playing a ground war dooms you to failure. Having 2 Diabolic Tutor and 3 Mind Sludge would be like having 5 Mind Sludge. Most UW Control has 6-8 counterspells and has to spend mana to kill Nantuko Shade or drop Planeswalkers; sooner or later, you can smash their hand.
Of course, you deal with Leyline. A lot of Leylines. In fact, if I had so much hate directed toward me, I personally would really consider a different deck.
Exactly. For now I'm considering a different store, cause I like MBC. I also like Mind Sludge and I'm glad you're having success with it, I think I'll try it again; it should work well in a non-hate environment.
But are there any other budget decks that can have a good matchup against creature-hate / Leyline UW? I have Kothless-RDW and Boros built but I wasn't confident about their matchup against UW. Everyone says red scoops to UW. Seems like black does too, as soon as they start using Leyline. Sad state of affairs...
As for a more threat-heavy approach, I was also leaning toward that. I think the 10x6 Japan list is interesting, it doesn't mess around. SB'ed Summoning Trap would also seem to be excellent in that version. I think I would rather have 3 Mimic Vat than 3 of that sword, though.
Exactly. For now I'm considering a different store, cause I like MBC. I also like Mind Sludge and I'm glad you're having success with it, I think I'll try it again; it should work well in a non-hate environment.
But are there any other budget decks that can have a good matchup against creature-hate / Leyline UW? I have Kothless-RDW and Boros built but I wasn't confident about their matchup against UW. Everyone says red scoops to UW. Seems like black does too, as soon as they start using Leyline. Sad state of affairs...
As for a more threat-heavy approach, I was also leaning toward that. I think the 10x6 Japan list is interesting, it doesn't mess around. SB'ed Summoning Trap would also seem to be excellent in that version. I think I would rather have 3 Mimic Vat than 3 of that sword, though.
Leyline is not the end-all be-all. I have played against leyline decks and still won. Not easy, but its not drastically in they're favor. There are two things going against it:
Not having it in the opening hand is horrid. Drawing it later might as well be a dead card
Drawing multiples suck, but you have to play it as a four-of to get it in your opening hand.
I almost never lose to u/w game one. And game 2 I have 8-9 cards that target players. Can be be bad, but not always. Sometimes they get leyline, but my hand is full of shades, hexmages, vat, and mimic vat. Then I don't care, because they are down a card or more.
Even if you are having trouble with the deck, its one bad matchup. In my experience, this deck has good game against u/r, valakut, aggro and such. Not a bad trade.
get a load of debbie downer over here
your deck sucks because you put sucky cards in it
no titan (best bomb in standard imo)
you're playing against Wall of Omens in UW and you run Arrogant Bloodlord? -_-
mind rot wont do crap against UW, maybe Mind Sludge, but I'm not a fan of it.
Specter would do you some good vs any control, escpecially with 7 duress effects? hmm, seems like one too many there
idk man maybe you're just crap
the rest seems ok i dont see why you think you have no chance vs UW
you can kill jace in a few ways, shoot a sun titan onto your vat or frost even
you have plenty of removal, maybe side the Grasps out for Ratchet bombs if control gives you that much heartache
Troll warning
You ever notice that people who talk like this, rarely ever post their own decks.
That being said, I agree the choices are unconventional and perhaps not the best. I was actually running Grave Titan before this, but how would a 6cc creature do ANYTHING against U/W? The card might as well read
4BB:
Put this card into your graveyard
I was at least hoping that with running early creatures that at least some might have a chance of resolving and the 7 Duress effects might be able to handle some of the counter and DoJs. I've definitely never had any regrets on the 7 Duress. It hits creatures and walkers against aggro, and counters,removal and walkers against control. It's rarely ever a dead card anymore than removal like Grasp or Doom Blade is.
And I do agree that the Specter is better than the Bloodlord against control, I just hate that it was TERRIBLE against aggro. And oddly enough, I don't really see WoO that much in the U/W builds I've been seeing.
The thing is, even if I cut the smaller, sillier creatures for stuff like Titan and Persecutor, that'd just make the game against U/W even worse and would basically assure that my wincons would never resolve.
The thing is, even if I cut the smaller, sillier creatures for stuff like Titan and Persecutor, that'd just make the game against U/W even worse and would basically assure that my wincons would never resolve.
I agree on Grave Titan however I think Abyssal Persecutor is a really good option against U/w Control at this point. This assuming that it's part of the win package and not the whole thing.
If you have ways to handle Jace you can basically run them out of of answers in the midgame by just continually replacing the thing they just managed wth something else. Nantuko Shade on turn 2, Abyssal Persecutor on turn 4, Drana on turn 5, Mind Sludge them when they tap out to deal with Drana and then anything you drop will probably kill them.
This doesn't work very well when you're dropping Liliana's Specter, Vampire Hexmage and Gatekeeper of Malakir right in a row because you extend the clock for them and they'll draw right back into an answer before you wind it down on them. It works well when you're dropping 3 turn clocks though.
It doesn't work well when you have a low threat deck and your control elements are reactive or passive, because you're just playing their game then and U/w is much better at that than MBC.
Even hand control is iffy other than the ability to proactively handle their planeswalkers and Volition Reins. With 11-14 targeted removal/discard and 4 Sign in Blood alongside a few utility spells the list just becomes too passive to do well against a passive control deck. That's why U/w Control can be such a tough matchup. They have your 7 win cons over matched and all the other things the deck does while valuable are not going to win the game for you, leaving you an inevitable defeat.
Put 11-12 real win cons in the deck and add a touch of equipment to make your little utility creatures good as a finisher when they're what you have in hand instead of a finisher and you're really likely to knock U/w back on it's heels and win before they can recover.
I'm favoring Strata Scythe right now as the equipment but I'm sure there are other good options out there. Basically anything that can turn a Gatekeeper of Malakir or a Vampire Hexmage into a finisher will do.
Why not give Sword of Body and Mind a shot? Makes sure your creature is inmune to Frosty, Voliton Reins, Jace and Into the Roil. With Reins and Into the Roil, they have to use it on your sword before actually trying to tackle the creature. The fact that it creates more threats while milling their library is also noteworthy.
I agree on Grave Titan however I think Abyssal Persecutor is a really good option against U/w Control at this point. This assuming that it's part of the win package and not the whole thing.
If you have ways to handle Jace you can basically run them out of of answers in the midgame by just continually replacing the thing they just managed wth something else. Nantuko Shade on turn 2, Abyssal Persecutor on turn 4, Drana on turn 5, Mind Sludge them when they tap out to deal with Drana and then anything you drop will probably kill them.
This doesn't work very well when you're dropping Liliana's Specter, Vampire Hexmage and Gatekeeper of Malakir right in a row because you extend the clock for them and they'll draw right back into an answer before you wind it down on them. It works well when you're dropping 3 turn clocks though.
It doesn't work well when you have a low threat deck and your control elements are reactive or passive, because you're just playing their game then and U/w is much better at that than MBC.
Even hand control is iffy other than the ability to proactively handle their planeswalkers and Volition Reins. With 11-14 targeted removal/discard and 4 Sign in Blood alongside a few utility spells the list just becomes too passive to do well against a passive control deck. That's why U/w Control can be such a tough matchup. They have your 7 win cons over matched and all the other things the deck does while valuable are not going to win the game for you, leaving you an inevitable defeat.
Put 11-12 real win cons in the deck and add a touch of equipment to make your little utility creatures good as a finisher when they're what you have in hand instead of a finisher and you're really likely to knock U/w back on it's heels and win before they can recover.
I'm favoring Strata Scythe right now as the equipment but I'm sure there are other good options out there. Basically anything that can turn a Gatekeeper of Malakir or a Vampire Hexmage into a finisher will do.
Much thanks for a very well thought out explanation. I appreciate that as it's rather hard to come by on pretty much any site. I actually feel like I learned something from what you said as opposed to just feeling insulted.
I do totally hear what your saying about the bigger threats putting them on a faster clock as opposed to them being able to take half a dozen hits from a lone Gatekeeper/Hexmage and just wait to drop a DoJ when play another small guy. And I LOVE the idea of the Strata Scythe! I'll definitely have to pick me up some of those, which thankfully shouldn't be too hard to come by.
I'm not sure if I feel ya on what you're saying about the discard though. Unless I've misread you, it does a lot more against U/W than just get rid of Jace and Volition Reins. It's what gets rid of the Mana Leaks, Condems, DoJs, Journies and the like that would otherwise knock out every goofy lil attempted threat I'd try early in the game. Again though, I apologize if I've misread.
You ever notice that people who talk like this, rarely ever post their own decks.
That being said, I agree the choices are unconventional and perhaps not the best. I was actually running Grave Titan before this, but how would a 6cc creature do ANYTHING against U/W? The card might as well read
4BB:
Put this card into your graveyard
Yeah finishers that expensive are usually death vs counters and removal but The titan gives game and locks people out of games other than U/W. He is a 6 mana instant undead army 10 worth of power in 3 creatures its too awesome to pass up. Also if you do it right your discard and hexmages your opponent should be top decking past turn 5.
I was at least hoping that with running early creatures that at least some might have a chance of resolving and the 7 Duress effects might be able to handle some of the counter and DoJs. I've definitely never had any regrets on the 7 Duress. It hits creatures and walkers against aggro, and counters,removal and walkers against control. It's rarely ever a dead card anymore than removal like Grasp or Doom Blade is.
And I do agree that the Specter is better than the Bloodlord against control, I just hate that it was TERRIBLE against aggro. And oddly enough, I don't really see WoO that much in the U/W builds I've been seeing.
The thing is, even if I cut the smaller, sillier creatures for stuff like Titan and Persecutor, that'd just make the game against U/W even worse and would basically assure that my wincons would never resolve.
arrogant bloodlord seems good enough for testing, tells us how you do with it.
The philosophy vs U/W is mitigate their CA early so that you can go FTW. Force them to tap out so that your memoricide/sadsac/sludge/finisher resolves and take it home. Your plan will vary according to your hand sometimes its better to take counterspells sometimes its better to go for the 0/4 wall or the random oust so that your shade can connect. Also contrary to popular belief control can be unlucky too so fixate in the hand and on their mana movement and not so much on the OMG they have 3 jaces left etc.(but if you see a good opening go for it don't be bluffed).
When you duress use their curve against them think what will the U/W will need to play next what card is gonna propel him above and go for that, see their hand then yours and ask what does he/she have that i can't answer with the rest of my grip?
I've been playing around with different type2 decks for a while now. I've built mono g aggro, infect, luxcontrol, and anything budget. Mono Black was my first one I toyed with, but it is definately more expensive than all the others (granted it's still pretty budget considering jaces, titan's, walletslayer, etc.)
I finally got to test the deck, and even though it was only one game at least it's something. I'll try to go over it to the best of my memory...
Mono B vs BUG infect
I won the roll and keep swamp, swamp, vat, gatekeeper, SiB, SiB, SiB. I open with swamp and pass. On his turn he plays a fetchland for a forest.
Second turn I draw a duress, so I play the duress and see that he has a bunch of creatures and land, and the only thing I could take was a groundswell. On his turn he plays a land and a ichorclaw and passes the turn.
I'm not nervous since I already took his only pump spell, and I know that only one pump spell wont kill me. So I SiB, get a land and play it.
His go, and he swings for 1 poison. Its just too bad for him that I have enough mana and kill spells now to pretty much handle him for the remainder of the game.
Game ends particularly from landing a persecutor, a geth, then sweeping the board and playing shade. I kill my persecutor after he hits 0 and it's game. After this game he said he had to go...
Notes
Vat is wierd... I didn't play it till I was already in control of the game. I ended up imprinting a gatekeeper and only used the vat once to block. It's very mana intensive, but I could see it taking some sweet creatures from anything not infect. I would have probably boarded them out if we kept playing...
persecutor is awesome
geth didn't get to anything except be scary. I'll prolly take him out for a little more control. I think 4 persecutor's, and 2 wurmengines is enough... Perhaps I'll put a 1 of grim discovery. It'll either get back a big dude, or a sac outlet.
I used SiB like 3 times in our game, it is definately the reason I won.
I'm nervous about U/W control, but the deck seems solid enough to squeek out a win game 1, definately still at a disadvantage but whatev's. Hopefully with a SB full of memoricides and hexmages i can win.
Let me know what you think, and suggestions you would make.
might want to run 25 swamps to reliably hit your land drops for a turn 5 sludge. also wouldn't suggest running consume the meek, hits too much of your creatures (3 shades and gatekeepers). try running ratchet bomb or (on a lesser but cheaper note) marsh casualties. although marsh and consume would fit better in the sideboard as they're only effective against hyper aggro decks.
also would be good to fit in 2-3 inquisitions somewhere in the MB.
mbc's pretty much game against infect or any midrange-aggro decks out there. might try playing against more control/ramp to have a better gauge on your deck
has anyone else been running mimic vat as a 5-drop? usually i've been holding on to it until i can Doom Blade or Grasp of Darkness on the same turn. the only time i've been dropping it early is against control.
given as not all of us are running gatekeeper of malakir nowadays (at least not in the main), i think the only staple 3-drop that we have is mimic vat. so i usually drop it by then. i actually am more hesitant to drop it at turn 3 against control unless i've sweeped their hand with duress/inquisition, as a resolved mimic vat and vampire hexmage or liliana's specter presents a huge threat against them.
artifact hate's usually boarded in at game 2 anyways, so you can more or less drop it at turn 3 unless you want to use your mana for other reasons by then.
I have come up with a list here that I think folks will like. I recently came to the dark side and I have been toying with this lest. It seems fairly synergistic.
The MTM works real well here with the sac outlets. Also, scrying is nice along with some sign in blood. I believe that having 2 percy's out at once will not be an issue in this deck at all, considering all the outlets that are provided. The monuments can be real nice finisher cards as well. perhaps giving a fly by if MTM isn't out. It also is a late game outlet for Percy. Many will notice I am not running things like mimic vat and memoricide. That is because of the synergies at work. And I should have answers running 19 creatures in mono black control.
Raistlin: Eldrazi monument and seer are definetely not worth it in this deck. You won't have a full field of creatures to sac, and you only run 19 guys anyhow. That card was meant for token decks that run nissa, and garruk. Vampire nighthawk was also found to be not good enough. I'd take some of those out for lands. 21 lands is a very low number, most of us run 24-26.
Raistlin: Eldrazi monument and seer are definetely not worth it in this deck. You won't have a full field of creatures to sac, and you only run 19 guys anyhow. That card was meant for token decks that run nissa, and garruk. Vampire nighthawk was also found to be not good enough. I'd take some of those out for lands. 21 lands is a very low number, most of us run 24-26.
Jolly: Grave titan actually reads: DOJ or lose.
Agree with you on the land, and monument points, but I need to point out that he's running seer so he can sacrifice the persecutor. Can't remember the name of the vampire that gives "sacrifice a creature: blah blah gets +2/+2" but that would be a viable alternative (although the scry is a pretty nice alternative if you're not hurting for damage and you're looking for creature removal)
I'm really questioning the use of Vampire Nighthawk. He doesn't seem essential but hes just so good in aggro matchups and isn't a dead draw against control (as opposed to practically all other creatures). Skinrender is really an awesome card but cannot be cast without your opponent having a creature on the field. Corrupt is the reason I run MONO black whereas I could simply throw in 12 dual lands and run lightning bolts. Ratchet Bomb and Steel Hellkite are MVP in a color that cannot remove artifacts or enchantments from play and rely on board position.
Round 1 vs Grixis Control
I saw 2 Inquisition, 1 Duress, and a Specter in my opening hand, with 2 swamps, a tec edge, and a doom blade. I shred his hand, but he still manages to land a Persecutor. I discard all of his ways to get rid of it, and kill his Frost Titan with my doom blade. He's powerless to stop Drana and a Shade from going the distance.
Game 2 is back and forth a bit more, with him sucessfully killing off one of my Grave Titans with a Consuming Vapors, but I had a backup. I killed 2 of his Frost Titans with Doom Blade. He seemed surprised I kept those in.
2-0 (2-0-0)
Round 2 vs GB Infect
Game 1 he's short black mana, and my discard is able to hit much of his infect creatures and one of his pump spells. He manages to get a Skithrix, but I've already got a Drana in play, and it doesn't get an attack off.
Game 2, he has to mulligan, and I'm able to kill his Skittles with Grasp of Darkness. Then I get him Specter-locked with Mimic Vat. 7 turns later, it's GG
2-0 (4-0-0)
Round 3 vs RDW
Game 1, I don't even hit 5 mana before he kills me. I see 1 doom blade, 1 Ratchet Bomb and no discard.
In: 2 Grasp of Darkness, 1 Duress, 2 Consume the Meek; Out 3 Mimic Vat, 2 Ratchet Bomb
Game 2 I'm able to hit 5 mana, but by that time, I'm at 8. I need a Consume the Meek, or I'm dead, and I don't draw it. I really hate Goblin Guide.
2-1 (4-2-0)
Round 4 vs B/u something?
He's playing semi-black control, with blue for Preordain, foursee, Jace, and tar pits.
Game 1, he's short blue mana, and I attempt to use Tec edge to keep him unable to use his blue stuff. I don't draw many threats though, just 3 doom blade. Eventually he lands a Grave Titan.
In: 3 Gatekeeper, 2 Grasp of Darkness, 1 Duress; Out 4 Doomblade, 2 Ratchet Bomb
Game 2 I get mana flooded, but using Liliana's specters I'm able to make him discard 2 of his 3 grave titans. I get him to 12 quickly, but then his Gatekeepers, Nighthawks, and Skinrenders make my creatures dead, and I don't see any removal. He plays his third Grave Titan, and I'm dead.
2-2 (4-4-0)
Round 5 vs RW Allies.
This kid is pretty awful, so I'm feeling pretty good about this matchup. Game 1, I use Inquisition to take out a Blademaster, and see a little removal. He gets me to 4, but I stabilize with Drana, and wreck him.
In: 2 Grasp of Darkness, 2 Consume the Meek; Out 2 Duress, 2 Ratchet Bomb
Game 2 I don't see any discard spells, just 2 hexmages, a Drana, and a ton of land. He Journey to Nowheres my Drana, and I don't draw anything relevant. I get a little frustrated, because I should be rolling this kid.
Game 3, I get 2 Inquisition, 1 Consume the Meek, a Specter, and 3 swamps in my opening hand. He mulligans to 5, and I'm quite happy. I shred his hand, and he gets pretty ticked. He finally gets to cast somethings, but by that time I have plenty of mana, and a mimic vat in play. After he's got 3 or 4 creatures, I cast Consume the Meek, taking his ally that gives pro-colors when it comes into play for my Vat. A few turns later, I drop a Grave Titan, and that's game.
3-2 (6-5-0)
This made me realize that list was still rather vulnerable to aggro, and that Ratchet Bomb isn't that good. I also wanted more discard.
So I made these changes:
Main Deck:
-2 Ratchet Bomb
+1 Liliana's Specter
+1 Grasp of Darkness (from Sideboard)
Sideboard:
-2 Grasp of Darkness (1 to main deck)
-1 Sadistic Sacrament
+3 Disfigure
I took that list to a Saturday night tournament, and went 2-1, getting second.
Round 1 vs White weenie Quest
Game 1 I make him discard a bunch of stuff, and kill his dudes with Doomblades. Gatekeepers keep his Quests from activating. Drana seals the deal.
Game 2 I get him to 11 with Hexmages and Specters, but he gets a Quest off, and I don't have the doomblade.
Game 3, I wreck him with a combination of removal and discard. It doesn't hurt that he mulligans to 6. He's left with 1 card in hand (which is an Armor) when I drop a Grave titan on turn 6 or 7, and he scoops.
1-0 (2-1-0)
Round 2 vs RUG
Game 1 I deny him blue mana, and force him to discard 3 explore, and kill off an Oracle. He never gets past 5 lands, as Drana and a Shade go the distance.
Game 2 he ramps like a beast, and drops a Frost titan quite fast. I don't stand a chance, especially with the 3 Jaces he saw this game.
Game 3 I do an amazing job of controling him with just 4 lands. I take away all of his win cons with 2 memoricides, leaving him with just 2/x guys and Raging Ravines. Unfortunately, I only see 2 doom blades (one is used on an Oracle, the other a Ravine) and 1 Tec edge, after I'm already at 5. I'm able to drop a Drana, but he just bounces it with Into the Roil, and uses Lightning Bolt and Cobra to kill me
1-1 (3-2-0)
Round 3 vs RW Vat Allies
This deck tries to make everything an artifact, and then use allies and manic vandals with mimic vat to blow everything up. It's SUPER janky.
Game 1 I steam roll him with a little removal, some discard, and a Nantuko shade.
Game 2 he gets me to 14, but Drana quickly clears up the board, and finishes things.
2-1 (5-2-0)
I also played a causal match against U/W merfolk. It seemed to play a lot like U/W control, but was significantly more aggressive. He got me to single digits, but I was able to stabilize with removal and Mimic Vat. Grave Titan finished both of those games for me.
Total win/loss for the weekend:
6-3 (13-7-0)
I really wish we had Tendrils of Corruption back. That would go a long ways towards making MBC more competitive. I think RDW would be pretty much a joke then, and that definitely seemed like my hardest matchup.
I'm thinking about cutting 1 Nantuko Shade or Liliana's Specter for a 4th Hexmage. I'm leaning more towards the Shade, because I think 3 is enough to see them regularly.
Goats! Jacob van Lunen was right. If I had to choose between killing people with goats and eating ice cream, I'd definately pick killing people with goats.
I was wondering what people though of Akil Steele's list. I love how good mind sludge is right now, and I feel is the main reason you should be restricting yourself to mono black instead of u/b. I also love how wonderfully Diabolic tutor curves into mind sludge and your other 5 drop silver bullets like consume the meek, and consuming vapors.
Forgive me if it has been mentioned before, but this thread is large.
I'm not sure if I feel ya on what you're saying about the discard though. Unless I've misread you, it does a lot more against U/W than just get rid of Jace and Volition Reins. It's what gets rid of the Mana Leaks, Condems, DoJs, Journies and the like that would otherwise knock out every goofy lil attempted threat I'd try early in the game. Again though, I apologize if I've misread.
The issue I have with targeted discard against U/w is that basically unless you're Duressing them for Jace or Gideon or Volition Reins, the things in their deck likely to kill you, you're just 1-for-1ing one of their answers and effectively extending the game for them in the process. It feels strong when you take a Stoic Rebuttal or Condemn with Inquisition of Kozilek, particularly if you have a threat to drop right away. There are many times however when you have the IoK instead of a threat or an answer to one of their threats and in that situation the 1-for-1 is leading into their inevitability, not getting you out of it. That's my issue in a nutshell with IoK against U/w.
It's taken me awhile to work out that dichotomy and I might well be wrong, however my results against U/w have improved some when I went more active against them. I was ok with Mimic Vat/Liliana's Specter/Vampire Hexmage against them although having Into the Roil disrupt the vat/specter lock was an issue. When I switched out vats due to Eldrazi Ramp going ballistic in my meta I began having problems with U/w again. Switching out the IoK's for more active threats has helped some in that regard.
I'm still amazed at how black has answers for everything in the meta and how hard it is to get them condensed into a beats-it-all list. I guess thats because we don't have unconditionally good engines like Jace, the Mind Sculptor or Primeval Titan to glue everything together. Instead we have great support spells like Sign in Blood and Doom Blade to start with.
Mind Sludge isn't as good as it once was. Now, aggro doesn't have many cards in hand by turn 5, and control has enough card advantage to draw out of it.
Diabolic tutor is rather slow, and while the tool box is nice in theory, a 4 cmc tutor isn't going to cut it. I'd rather just use the slots for extra copies of what I would be tutoring for.
Goats! Jacob van Lunen was right. If I had to choose between killing people with goats and eating ice cream, I'd definately pick killing people with goats.
I was wondering what people though of Akil Steele's list. I love how good mind sludge is right now, and I feel is the main reason you should be restricting yourself to mono black instead of u/b. I also love how wonderfully Diabolic tutor curves into mind sludge and your other 5 drop silver bullets like consume the meek, and consuming vapors.
Forgive me if it has been mentioned before, but this thread is large.
I dont know his list is very diferent from what i play, i can see him dominating the mirror thought with 3 sludge and 3 ways of finding them.
The issue I have with targeted discard against U/w is that basically unless you're Duressing them for Jace or Gideon or Volition Reins, the things in their deck likely to kill you, you're just 1-for-1ing one of their answers and effectively extending the game for them in the process. It feels strong when you take a Stoic Rebuttal or Condemn with Inquisition of Kozilek, particularly if you have a threat to drop right away. There are many times however when you have the IoK instead of a threat or an answer to one of their threats and in that situation the 1-for-1 is leading into their inevitability, not getting you out of it. That's my issue in a nutshell with IoK against U/w.
It's taken me awhile to work out that dichotomy and I might well be wrong, however my results against U/w have improved some when I went more active against them. I was ok with Mimic Vat/Liliana's Specter/Vampire Hexmage against them although having Into the Roil disrupt the vat/specter lock was an issue. When I switched out vats due to Eldrazi Ramp going ballistic in my meta I began having problems with U/w again. Switching out the IoK's for more active threats has helped some in that regard.
I'm still amazed at how black has answers for everything in the meta and how hard it is to get them condensed into a beats-it-all list. I guess thats because we don't have unconditionally good engines like Jace, the Mind Sculptor or Primeval Titan to glue everything together. Instead we have great support spells like Sign in Blood and Doom Blade to start with.
Yeah black is the best "budget" color right now so many answers but its hard to know which ones are relevant in the current FNM with so many different strategies.
I kinda agree with you on the IoK still my meta is so dam unpredictable and mi ratings being up and down all year i usually never play the same decks two weeks in a row. I like a 2/2 split on Iok and duress with 2 more duress SB for those artifact matches.
Mind Sludge isn't as good as it once was. Now, aggro doesn't have many cards in hand by turn 5, and control has enough card advantage to draw out of it.
Diabolic tutor is rather slow, and while the tool box is nice in theory, a 4 cmc tutor isn't going to cut it. I'd rather just use the slots for extra copies of what I would be tutoring for.
yeah but the point is that a resolved MS gives you a breather from the stream of threats vs U/x control and time for you to reload and/or punch some damage before he bounces/condemns/etc your guys.
I like the consistency akil steele mono B and vs a field with superior CA having the right card in hand is everything. for reference (http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck.asp?deck_id=700616), but i agree with you its not so much having the answer but getting to use it in time and casting a 4 mana spell when you could be top decking the solution is unnerving vs many decks right now. Also i like doing duble threats vs control and see them scratch their head afterward.
No offence but maybe you should examine your playstyle against u/w then. Because myself and others with similar lists do not have that big of an issue against u/w.
No I meant that I can put out 3 potential game-ending threats in a row fairly early on. U/w Control is always going to be able to manage the first threat unless you managed to get their Condemn/DoJ with discard and then they drew poorly after that. I only put out 2 creatures against U/w when I'm forced too, as in they have Jace or Gideon and I need to put out 2 to get one active. The key to finishing them early is not running out of real threats before they run out of answers. Once I get to the late midgame against them if the board is stalled I'm probably going to lose, so I go way out of my way to keep that from happening. That's why big flyers are the expensive killers. It's hard to stall them. and the ones I've picked land turn 4 and 5 before things begin to bog down.
This is more or less how I deal with U/W. The more I play against the decks, the easier the matchup seems. I''ve realized that U/W isn't that unbeatable deck. And without the Leyline, they are actually pretty much a pushover for us.
As for my FNM, I went 3-1 and took 3rd out of 24 or so people. Smallest turnout since before Worldwake came out.
A couple of things I didn't realize before I took the deck to FNM due to time constraints during the week. If you notice, I had 25 lands in there and I wanted to play with 24, so the deck count is actually 61 cards. Also, I wanted to play 3/3 split on duress and Inquistion. That may have changed a couple things against U/W in Game 3.
RDW 2-0
My new decklist succeeded in crushing RDW!! The details are a bit fuzzy, but I know each game I started with Inquisition, Gatekeeper and either doom blade or Skinrender. It was pretty much a slaughter.
B/W Allies 2-0
Okay, I'm guessing this guy just punts to any black deck. I answered turn for turn every single one of his threats, and then slapped down either Wurmcoil or Titan. Although game 2, I followed Percy up with Titan and he scooped. His reaction to my finishers both games O_o. He looked like he just saw the cards come to life. Mind you his board was empty by the time my finishers hit.
U/W Control 1-2
Another one of those leyline decks. I got him game 1 pretty quick with far too many threats on the board. We went to game 2, and he opened with double leyline. I opened with 2 Inquisition and 2 sad sac (i didn't expect the leyline). I still almost got him though. I was able to take out 3 jaces, both Gideons, and a Venser. Sadly, he had another Jace and a Sun Titan that I couldn't deal with. Yes, it was a pretty weird build. Game 3 went on for a while, but he simply had better topdecks than I did. Plus the fact that I never drew into a Sign in Blood kind of hurt. He never did get a Leyline that game, but I had also sided out 3 Inquisition for more creatures (probably a mistake).
BR Vampires 2-0
I went in scared to play against this deck, and came out thinking its a joke. They simply don't have what it takes to stand toe to toe with the big bad Grave Titans, Abyssals, Bloodwitches, or Wurmcoils. He did miss his 4th land drop in game 2, but that's what you get for playing 22 lands. Although, his curve does end at 4 with 3 Percies, and his only 3 drops are 4 Nighthawks and 3 Dark Tutelage. But yeah, like what happened to the rest of the aggro decks that night, they played a threat, and I killed it. Nothing stuck for longer than 1 turn. If only we could apply that to U/W Control.
All in all, a very productive night. I found out that I actually only sided in 1 Disfigure the entire night, and I probably didn't need to since I never saw it. That means more SB hate towards U/W. I'll try to keep the Mainboard very close to the way it is right now (need to add another specter), with the SB changing quite a bit (Pull Disfigures, add a Shade and Hexmage, and maybe move a Skinrender here from MB for 1 more Specter MB).
This is more or less how I deal with U/W. The more I play against the decks, the easier the matchup seems. I''ve realized that U/W isn't that unbeatable deck. And without the Leyline, they are actually pretty much a pushover for us.
U/W Control 1-2
game 2 he opened with double leyline
Game 3 went on for a while, but he simply had better topdecks than I did. He never did get a Leyline that game
Oh, interesting. Why wasn't game 3 a "pushover" for you then? "Bad luck", "he had better topdecks" -- OR, maybe he had better topdecks and killed you with inevitable card advantage / card quality advantage because UW has access to:
Oh, interesting. Why wasn't game 3 a "pushover" for you then? "Bad luck", "he had better topdecks" -- OR, maybe he had better topdecks and killed you with inevitable card advantage / card quality advantage because UW has access to:
Showing once again why UWC beats MBC. (No, that couldn't possibly be it!)
No preordains or Halimar Depths in the deck that I saw. EDIT: I don't think I saw an Wall of Omens either.
He out sideboarded me. I wasn't prepared for it game 2 and it hurt. I expected it game 3 and mulled away my opening hand with 2x Duress. Honestly, he might have sided out his Leylines in game 3 knowing that I would sideboard out most discard spells. I know now that sideboarding against them should be going as aggro as possible, while getting as many 2 for 1's as possible.
Mind Sludge is a good option against control and to a lesser extent ramp. You often do not want to let them discard an Eldrazi to put it back in their deck for Summoning Trap and it's a free discard for them as a result. Against aggro I never want to see Mind Sludge. They don't hold cards in hand unless they're useless against the current game state any way.
I like your list. It's very balanced and probably good in a random meta where you never know what you are going to see from match to match. 7 finishers is a little bit low for my tastes at this point however you have the bloodwitches in the sideboard for the games when white removal would just drive you batty otherwise.
We lost Tendrils. This means 4 Sign in Blood and 6-8 fetchlands was liable to get us killed. Consuming Vapors could not replace it. At the same time, we got Grave Titan. Due to its higher mana cost, it was a sort of confluence: we now had a reason to run MBC without painlands; turn four Diabolic Tutor/Consuming Vapors/Vampire Hexmage, turn five Mind Sludge, turn six Grave Titan.
Oh, and there was the rather short-lived Phylactery Lich. xDDD
I consider the toolbox approach to be wrong. Diabolic Tutor ought to improve our flexibility, allowing us to react to threats quickly. It is not meant to find silver bullets like singleton Ratchet Bomb, Wurmcoil Engine, Memoricide and Haunting Echoes. Though it can, it is, as you said, slow and vulnerable. Better to have 3 Ratchet Bombs and 2 Diabolic Tutors than 1 and 2.
I changed a lot of decks as well. I went from MBC "Proliferate" to MBC "Mimic Vat" to MBC "Mind Sludge." The first was too exposed and slow; the second was too clumsy; the third is just right. You can look at my history for the lists.
Sure, it can slip under, but they will play around it. The key to UW Control is to kill Jace and attack the hand. Playing a ground war dooms you to failure. Having 2 Diabolic Tutor and 3 Mind Sludge would be like having 5 Mind Sludge. Most UW Control has 6-8 counterspells and has to spend mana to kill Nantuko Shade or drop Planeswalkers; sooner or later, you can smash their hand.
Of course, you deal with Leyline. A lot of Leylines. In fact, if I had so much hate directed toward me, I personally would really consider a different deck.
I like Mimic Vat. It forces them to dig for Into the Roil before they can play a creature. It buys a lot of time.
I think fetches are liable to get you killed. ><
Doom Blade and Mimic Vat. That or just outrace him. Or Brittle Effigy, as you have already done.
Exactly. For now I'm considering a different store, cause I like MBC. I also like Mind Sludge and I'm glad you're having success with it, I think I'll try it again; it should work well in a non-hate environment.
But are there any other budget decks that can have a good matchup against creature-hate / Leyline UW? I have Kothless-RDW and Boros built but I wasn't confident about their matchup against UW. Everyone says red scoops to UW. Seems like black does too, as soon as they start using Leyline. Sad state of affairs...
As for a more threat-heavy approach, I was also leaning toward that. I think the 10x6 Japan list is interesting, it doesn't mess around. SB'ed Summoning Trap would also seem to be excellent in that version. I think I would rather have 3 Mimic Vat than 3 of that sword, though.
Leyline is not the end-all be-all. I have played against leyline decks and still won. Not easy, but its not drastically in they're favor. There are two things going against it:
Not having it in the opening hand is horrid. Drawing it later might as well be a dead card
Drawing multiples suck, but you have to play it as a four-of to get it in your opening hand.
I almost never lose to u/w game one. And game 2 I have 8-9 cards that target players. Can be be bad, but not always. Sometimes they get leyline, but my hand is full of shades, hexmages, vat, and mimic vat. Then I don't care, because they are down a card or more.
Even if you are having trouble with the deck, its one bad matchup. In my experience, this deck has good game against u/r, valakut, aggro and such. Not a bad trade.
You ever notice that people who talk like this, rarely ever post their own decks.
That being said, I agree the choices are unconventional and perhaps not the best. I was actually running Grave Titan before this, but how would a 6cc creature do ANYTHING against U/W? The card might as well read
4BB:
Put this card into your graveyard
I was at least hoping that with running early creatures that at least some might have a chance of resolving and the 7 Duress effects might be able to handle some of the counter and DoJs. I've definitely never had any regrets on the 7 Duress. It hits creatures and walkers against aggro, and counters,removal and walkers against control. It's rarely ever a dead card anymore than removal like Grasp or Doom Blade is.
And I do agree that the Specter is better than the Bloodlord against control, I just hate that it was TERRIBLE against aggro. And oddly enough, I don't really see WoO that much in the U/W builds I've been seeing.
The thing is, even if I cut the smaller, sillier creatures for stuff like Titan and Persecutor, that'd just make the game against U/W even worse and would basically assure that my wincons would never resolve.
I agree on Grave Titan however I think Abyssal Persecutor is a really good option against U/w Control at this point. This assuming that it's part of the win package and not the whole thing.
If you have ways to handle Jace you can basically run them out of of answers in the midgame by just continually replacing the thing they just managed wth something else. Nantuko Shade on turn 2, Abyssal Persecutor on turn 4, Drana on turn 5, Mind Sludge them when they tap out to deal with Drana and then anything you drop will probably kill them.
This doesn't work very well when you're dropping Liliana's Specter, Vampire Hexmage and Gatekeeper of Malakir right in a row because you extend the clock for them and they'll draw right back into an answer before you wind it down on them. It works well when you're dropping 3 turn clocks though.
It doesn't work well when you have a low threat deck and your control elements are reactive or passive, because you're just playing their game then and U/w is much better at that than MBC.
Even hand control is iffy other than the ability to proactively handle their planeswalkers and Volition Reins. With 11-14 targeted removal/discard and 4 Sign in Blood alongside a few utility spells the list just becomes too passive to do well against a passive control deck. That's why U/w Control can be such a tough matchup. They have your 7 win cons over matched and all the other things the deck does while valuable are not going to win the game for you, leaving you an inevitable defeat.
Put 11-12 real win cons in the deck and add a touch of equipment to make your little utility creatures good as a finisher when they're what you have in hand instead of a finisher and you're really likely to knock U/w back on it's heels and win before they can recover.
I'm favoring Strata Scythe right now as the equipment but I'm sure there are other good options out there. Basically anything that can turn a Gatekeeper of Malakir or a Vampire Hexmage into a finisher will do.
BBB Mikaeus, the Unhallowed BBB
UG Momir Vig, Simic Visionary UG
UB Grimgrin, Corpse-Born UB
Much thanks for a very well thought out explanation. I appreciate that as it's rather hard to come by on pretty much any site. I actually feel like I learned something from what you said as opposed to just feeling insulted.
I do totally hear what your saying about the bigger threats putting them on a faster clock as opposed to them being able to take half a dozen hits from a lone Gatekeeper/Hexmage and just wait to drop a DoJ when play another small guy. And I LOVE the idea of the Strata Scythe! I'll definitely have to pick me up some of those, which thankfully shouldn't be too hard to come by.
I'm not sure if I feel ya on what you're saying about the discard though. Unless I've misread you, it does a lot more against U/W than just get rid of Jace and Volition Reins. It's what gets rid of the Mana Leaks, Condems, DoJs, Journies and the like that would otherwise knock out every goofy lil attempted threat I'd try early in the game. Again though, I apologize if I've misread.
Yeah finishers that expensive are usually death vs counters and removal but The titan gives game and locks people out of games other than U/W. He is a 6 mana instant undead army 10 worth of power in 3 creatures its too awesome to pass up. Also if you do it right your discard and hexmages your opponent should be top decking past turn 5.
arrogant bloodlord seems good enough for testing, tells us how you do with it.
The philosophy vs U/W is mitigate their CA early so that you can go FTW. Force them to tap out so that your memoricide/sadsac/sludge/finisher resolves and take it home. Your plan will vary according to your hand sometimes its better to take counterspells sometimes its better to go for the 0/4 wall or the random oust so that your shade can connect. Also contrary to popular belief control can be unlucky too so fixate in the hand and on their mana movement and not so much on the OMG they have 3 jaces left etc.(but if you see a good opening go for it don't be bluffed).
When you duress use their curve against them think what will the U/W will need to play next what card is gonna propel him above and go for that, see their hand then yours and ask what does he/she have that i can't answer with the rest of my grip?
Anyway here's what I'm working with:
2 mind sludge
4 sign in blood
3 mimic vat
4 gatekeeper of malakir
3 consuming vapors
3 doom blade
3 nantuko shade
2 wurmcoil engine
1 geth, lord of the vault
1 liliana vess
2 consume the meek
24 swamp
3 memoricide
1 mind sludge
3 vampire hexmage
1 consume the meek
1 doom blade
3 tectonic edge
3 inquisition of kozilek
I finally got to test the deck, and even though it was only one game at least it's something. I'll try to go over it to the best of my memory...
Mono B vs BUG infect
I won the roll and keep swamp, swamp, vat, gatekeeper, SiB, SiB, SiB. I open with swamp and pass. On his turn he plays a fetchland for a forest.
Second turn I draw a duress, so I play the duress and see that he has a bunch of creatures and land, and the only thing I could take was a groundswell. On his turn he plays a land and a ichorclaw and passes the turn.
I'm not nervous since I already took his only pump spell, and I know that only one pump spell wont kill me. So I SiB, get a land and play it.
His go, and he swings for 1 poison. Its just too bad for him that I have enough mana and kill spells now to pretty much handle him for the remainder of the game.
Game ends particularly from landing a persecutor, a geth, then sweeping the board and playing shade. I kill my persecutor after he hits 0 and it's game. After this game he said he had to go...
Notes
Vat is wierd... I didn't play it till I was already in control of the game. I ended up imprinting a gatekeeper and only used the vat once to block. It's very mana intensive, but I could see it taking some sweet creatures from anything not infect. I would have probably boarded them out if we kept playing...
persecutor is awesome
geth didn't get to anything except be scary. I'll prolly take him out for a little more control. I think 4 persecutor's, and 2 wurmengines is enough... Perhaps I'll put a 1 of grim discovery. It'll either get back a big dude, or a sac outlet.
I used SiB like 3 times in our game, it is definately the reason I won.
I'm nervous about U/W control, but the deck seems solid enough to squeek out a win game 1, definately still at a disadvantage but whatev's. Hopefully with a SB full of memoricides and hexmages i can win.
Let me know what you think, and suggestions you would make.
might want to run 25 swamps to reliably hit your land drops for a turn 5 sludge. also wouldn't suggest running consume the meek, hits too much of your creatures (3 shades and gatekeepers). try running ratchet bomb or (on a lesser but cheaper note) marsh casualties. although marsh and consume would fit better in the sideboard as they're only effective against hyper aggro decks.
also would be good to fit in 2-3 inquisitions somewhere in the MB.
mbc's pretty much game against infect or any midrange-aggro decks out there. might try playing against more control/ramp to have a better gauge on your deck
artifact hate's usually boarded in at game 2 anyways, so you can more or less drop it at turn 3 unless you want to use your mana for other reasons by then.
4 Vampire Nighthawk
4 Gakekeeper of Malikir
4 Viscera Seer
3 Molten-Tail Masticore
2 Eldrazi Monument
4 Doom blade
4 Grasp of Darkness
4 Sign in Blood
3 Duress
3 Inquisition of Kosilek
17 Swamp
3 Brittle Effigy
4 Ratchet Bomb
4 Smother
4 Vampire Hexmage
The MTM works real well here with the sac outlets. Also, scrying is nice along with some sign in blood. I believe that having 2 percy's out at once will not be an issue in this deck at all, considering all the outlets that are provided. The monuments can be real nice finisher cards as well. perhaps giving a fly by if MTM isn't out. It also is a late game outlet for Percy. Many will notice I am not running things like mimic vat and memoricide. That is because of the synergies at work. And I should have answers running 19 creatures in mono black control.
Jolly: Grave titan actually reads: DOJ or lose.
Agree with you on the land, and monument points, but I need to point out that he's running seer so he can sacrifice the persecutor. Can't remember the name of the vampire that gives "sacrifice a creature: blah blah gets +2/+2" but that would be a viable alternative (although the scry is a pretty nice alternative if you're not hurting for damage and you're looking for creature removal)
Edit: momnument > monument
3 Nantuko Shade
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Vampire Nighthawk
2 Skinrender
2 Steel Hellkite
Spells (16)
2 Duress
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Grasp of Darkness
4 Sign in Blood
2 Corrupt
3 Ratchet Bomb
2 Crystal Ball
Lands (24)
3 Tectonic Edge
21 Swamp
2 Duress
4 Doom Blade
4 Vampire Hexmage
1 Nantuko Shade
2 Skinrender
2 Sadistic Sacrament
I'm really questioning the use of Vampire Nighthawk. He doesn't seem essential but hes just so good in aggro matchups and isn't a dead draw against control (as opposed to practically all other creatures). Skinrender is really an awesome card but cannot be cast without your opponent having a creature on the field. Corrupt is the reason I run MONO black whereas I could simply throw in 12 dual lands and run lightning bolts. Ratchet Bomb and Steel Hellkite are MVP in a color that cannot remove artifacts or enchantments from play and rely on board position.
This is the list I played at FNM, going 3-2:
4 Nantuko Shade
3 Vampire Hexmage
3 Liliana's Specter
2 Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief
2 Grave Titam
Artifacts:
2 Ratchet Bomb
3 Mimic Vat
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Duress
4 Doom Blade
4 Sign in Blood
2 Grasp of Darkness
Land:
4 Tectonic Edge
21 Swamp
2 Duress
2 Grasp of Darkness
3 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Sadistic Sacrament
2 Memoricide
2 Consume the Meek
Round 1 vs Grixis Control
I saw 2 Inquisition, 1 Duress, and a Specter in my opening hand, with 2 swamps, a tec edge, and a doom blade. I shred his hand, but he still manages to land a Persecutor. I discard all of his ways to get rid of it, and kill his Frost Titan with my doom blade. He's powerless to stop Drana and a Shade from going the distance.
In: 3 Gatekeeper, 2 Duress; Out: 3 Mimic Vat, 2 Ratchet Bomb
Game 2 is back and forth a bit more, with him sucessfully killing off one of my Grave Titans with a Consuming Vapors, but I had a backup. I killed 2 of his Frost Titans with Doom Blade. He seemed surprised I kept those in.
2-0 (2-0-0)
Round 2 vs GB Infect
Game 1 he's short black mana, and my discard is able to hit much of his infect creatures and one of his pump spells. He manages to get a Skithrix, but I've already got a Drana in play, and it doesn't get an attack off.
in: 3 Gatekeeper, 2 Grasp of Darkness, 1 Duress; out: 4 Doom Blade, 2 Ratchet Bomb
Game 2, he has to mulligan, and I'm able to kill his Skittles with Grasp of Darkness. Then I get him Specter-locked with Mimic Vat. 7 turns later, it's GG
2-0 (4-0-0)
Round 3 vs RDW
Game 1, I don't even hit 5 mana before he kills me. I see 1 doom blade, 1 Ratchet Bomb and no discard.
In: 2 Grasp of Darkness, 1 Duress, 2 Consume the Meek; Out 3 Mimic Vat, 2 Ratchet Bomb
Game 2 I'm able to hit 5 mana, but by that time, I'm at 8. I need a Consume the Meek, or I'm dead, and I don't draw it. I really hate Goblin Guide.
2-1 (4-2-0)
Round 4 vs B/u something?
He's playing semi-black control, with blue for Preordain, foursee, Jace, and tar pits.
Game 1, he's short blue mana, and I attempt to use Tec edge to keep him unable to use his blue stuff. I don't draw many threats though, just 3 doom blade. Eventually he lands a Grave Titan.
In: 3 Gatekeeper, 2 Grasp of Darkness, 1 Duress; Out 4 Doomblade, 2 Ratchet Bomb
Game 2 I get mana flooded, but using Liliana's specters I'm able to make him discard 2 of his 3 grave titans. I get him to 12 quickly, but then his Gatekeepers, Nighthawks, and Skinrenders make my creatures dead, and I don't see any removal. He plays his third Grave Titan, and I'm dead.
2-2 (4-4-0)
Round 5 vs RW Allies.
This kid is pretty awful, so I'm feeling pretty good about this matchup. Game 1, I use Inquisition to take out a Blademaster, and see a little removal. He gets me to 4, but I stabilize with Drana, and wreck him.
In: 2 Grasp of Darkness, 2 Consume the Meek; Out 2 Duress, 2 Ratchet Bomb
Game 2 I don't see any discard spells, just 2 hexmages, a Drana, and a ton of land. He Journey to Nowheres my Drana, and I don't draw anything relevant. I get a little frustrated, because I should be rolling this kid.
Game 3, I get 2 Inquisition, 1 Consume the Meek, a Specter, and 3 swamps in my opening hand. He mulligans to 5, and I'm quite happy. I shred his hand, and he gets pretty ticked. He finally gets to cast somethings, but by that time I have plenty of mana, and a mimic vat in play. After he's got 3 or 4 creatures, I cast Consume the Meek, taking his ally that gives pro-colors when it comes into play for my Vat. A few turns later, I drop a Grave Titan, and that's game.
3-2 (6-5-0)
This made me realize that list was still rather vulnerable to aggro, and that Ratchet Bomb isn't that good. I also wanted more discard.
So I made these changes:
Main Deck:
-2 Ratchet Bomb
+1 Liliana's Specter
+1 Grasp of Darkness (from Sideboard)
Sideboard:
-2 Grasp of Darkness (1 to main deck)
-1 Sadistic Sacrament
+3 Disfigure
So it now looks like this:
4 Nantuko Shade
3 Vampire Hexmage
4 Liliana's Specter
2 Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief
2 Grave Titan
Artifacts:
3 Mimic Vat
4 Inqisition
2 Duress
4 Doomblade
3 Grasp of Darkness
4 Sign in Blood
Land:
4 Tectonic Edge
21 Swamp
3 Disfigure
2 Duress
3 Gatekeeper of Malakir
3 Sadistic Sacrament
2 Memoricide
2 Consume the Meek
I took that list to a Saturday night tournament, and went 2-1, getting second.
Round 1 vs White weenie Quest
Game 1 I make him discard a bunch of stuff, and kill his dudes with Doomblades. Gatekeepers keep his Quests from activating. Drana seals the deal.
In: 3 Disfigure, 2 Duress; Out: 3 Mimic Vat, 1 Nantuko Shade, 1 Sign in Blood
Game 2 I get him to 11 with Hexmages and Specters, but he gets a Quest off, and I don't have the doomblade.
Game 3, I wreck him with a combination of removal and discard. It doesn't hurt that he mulligans to 6. He's left with 1 card in hand (which is an Armor) when I drop a Grave titan on turn 6 or 7, and he scoops.
1-0 (2-1-0)
Round 2 vs RUG
Game 1 I deny him blue mana, and force him to discard 3 explore, and kill off an Oracle. He never gets past 5 lands, as Drana and a Shade go the distance.
In: 3 Sadistic Sacrament, 1 Duress, 2 Memoricide; Out: 3 Mimic Vat, 3 Grasp of Darkness
Game 2 he ramps like a beast, and drops a Frost titan quite fast. I don't stand a chance, especially with the 3 Jaces he saw this game.
Game 3 I do an amazing job of controling him with just 4 lands. I take away all of his win cons with 2 memoricides, leaving him with just 2/x guys and Raging Ravines. Unfortunately, I only see 2 doom blades (one is used on an Oracle, the other a Ravine) and 1 Tec edge, after I'm already at 5. I'm able to drop a Drana, but he just bounces it with Into the Roil, and uses Lightning Bolt and Cobra to kill me
1-1 (3-2-0)
Round 3 vs RW Vat Allies
This deck tries to make everything an artifact, and then use allies and manic vandals with mimic vat to blow everything up. It's SUPER janky.
Game 1 I steam roll him with a little removal, some discard, and a Nantuko shade.
In: 3 Disfigure, 2 Consume the Meek; Out: 3 Mimic Vat
Game 2 he gets me to 14, but Drana quickly clears up the board, and finishes things.
2-1 (5-2-0)
I also played a causal match against U/W merfolk. It seemed to play a lot like U/W control, but was significantly more aggressive. He got me to single digits, but I was able to stabilize with removal and Mimic Vat. Grave Titan finished both of those games for me.
Total win/loss for the weekend:
6-3 (13-7-0)
I really wish we had Tendrils of Corruption back. That would go a long ways towards making MBC more competitive. I think RDW would be pretty much a joke then, and that definitely seemed like my hardest matchup.
I'm thinking about cutting 1 Nantuko Shade or Liliana's Specter for a 4th Hexmage. I'm leaning more towards the Shade, because I think 3 is enough to see them regularly.
Mono-Black Control:
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=6080734&postcount=4432
Forgive me if it has been mentioned before, but this thread is large.
RGStandard Gruul AggroRG
The issue I have with targeted discard against U/w is that basically unless you're Duressing them for Jace or Gideon or Volition Reins, the things in their deck likely to kill you, you're just 1-for-1ing one of their answers and effectively extending the game for them in the process. It feels strong when you take a Stoic Rebuttal or Condemn with Inquisition of Kozilek, particularly if you have a threat to drop right away. There are many times however when you have the IoK instead of a threat or an answer to one of their threats and in that situation the 1-for-1 is leading into their inevitability, not getting you out of it. That's my issue in a nutshell with IoK against U/w.
It's taken me awhile to work out that dichotomy and I might well be wrong, however my results against U/w have improved some when I went more active against them. I was ok with Mimic Vat/Liliana's Specter/Vampire Hexmage against them although having Into the Roil disrupt the vat/specter lock was an issue. When I switched out vats due to Eldrazi Ramp going ballistic in my meta I began having problems with U/w again. Switching out the IoK's for more active threats has helped some in that regard.
I'm still amazed at how black has answers for everything in the meta and how hard it is to get them condensed into a beats-it-all list. I guess thats because we don't have unconditionally good engines like Jace, the Mind Sculptor or Primeval Titan to glue everything together. Instead we have great support spells like Sign in Blood and Doom Blade to start with.
Diabolic tutor is rather slow, and while the tool box is nice in theory, a 4 cmc tutor isn't going to cut it. I'd rather just use the slots for extra copies of what I would be tutoring for.
Mono-Black Control:
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=6080734&postcount=4432
I dont know his list is very diferent from what i play, i can see him dominating the mirror thought with 3 sludge and 3 ways of finding them.
Yeah black is the best "budget" color right now so many answers but its hard to know which ones are relevant in the current FNM with so many different strategies.
I kinda agree with you on the IoK still my meta is so dam unpredictable and mi ratings being up and down all year i usually never play the same decks two weeks in a row. I like a 2/2 split on Iok and duress with 2 more duress SB for those artifact matches.
yeah but the point is that a resolved MS gives you a breather from the stream of threats vs U/x control and time for you to reload and/or punch some damage before he bounces/condemns/etc your guys.
I like the consistency akil steele mono B and vs a field with superior CA having the right card in hand is everything. for reference (http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck.asp?deck_id=700616), but i agree with you its not so much having the answer but getting to use it in time and casting a 4 mana spell when you could be top decking the solution is unnerving vs many decks right now. Also i like doing duble threats vs control and see them scratch their head afterward.
Quoted for truth.
This is more or less how I deal with U/W. The more I play against the decks, the easier the matchup seems. I''ve realized that U/W isn't that unbeatable deck. And without the Leyline, they are actually pretty much a pushover for us.
As for my FNM, I went 3-1 and took 3rd out of 24 or so people. Smallest turnout since before Worldwake came out.
First the list:
22x Swamp
3x Tectonic Edge
Spells: 16
4x Inquistion
2x Duress
4x Doom Blade
4x Sign in Blood
2x Consuming Vapors
4x Gatekeeper of Malakir
3x Liliana's Specter
3x Skinrender
3x Abyssal Persecutor
2x Grave Titan
1x Wurmcoil Engine
Artifacts: 4
2x Mimic Vat
2x Ratchet Bomb
3x Disfigure
3x Hexmage
3x Nantuko Shade
3x Sadistic Sacrament
3x Malakir Bloodwitch
A couple of things I didn't realize before I took the deck to FNM due to time constraints during the week. If you notice, I had 25 lands in there and I wanted to play with 24, so the deck count is actually 61 cards.
RDW 2-0
My new decklist succeeded in crushing RDW!! The details are a bit fuzzy, but I know each game I started with Inquisition, Gatekeeper and either doom blade or Skinrender. It was pretty much a slaughter.
B/W Allies 2-0
Okay, I'm guessing this guy just punts to any black deck. I answered turn for turn every single one of his threats, and then slapped down either Wurmcoil or Titan. Although game 2, I followed Percy up with Titan and he scooped. His reaction to my finishers both games O_o. He looked like he just saw the cards come to life. Mind you his board was empty by the time my finishers hit.
U/W Control 1-2
Another one of those leyline decks. I got him game 1 pretty quick with far too many threats on the board. We went to game 2, and he opened with double leyline. I opened with 2 Inquisition and 2 sad sac (i didn't expect the leyline). I still almost got him though. I was able to take out 3 jaces, both Gideons, and a Venser. Sadly, he had another Jace and a Sun Titan that I couldn't deal with. Yes, it was a pretty weird build. Game 3 went on for a while, but he simply had better topdecks than I did. Plus the fact that I never drew into a Sign in Blood kind of hurt. He never did get a Leyline that game, but I had also sided out 3 Inquisition for more creatures (probably a mistake).
BR Vampires 2-0
I went in scared to play against this deck, and came out thinking its a joke. They simply don't have what it takes to stand toe to toe with the big bad Grave Titans, Abyssals, Bloodwitches, or Wurmcoils. He did miss his 4th land drop in game 2, but that's what you get for playing 22 lands.
All in all, a very productive night. I found out that I actually only sided in 1 Disfigure the entire night, and I probably didn't need to since I never saw it. That means more SB hate towards U/W.
K. And then:
Oh, interesting. Why wasn't game 3 a "pushover" for you then? "Bad luck", "he had better topdecks" -- OR, maybe he had better topdecks and killed you with inevitable card advantage / card quality advantage because UW has access to:
Halimar Depths
Preordain
Jace Beleren
Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Wall of Omens
Sea Gate Oracle
Jace's Ingenuity
Showing once again why UWC beats MBC. (No, that couldn't possibly be it!)
No preordains or Halimar Depths in the deck that I saw. EDIT: I don't think I saw an Wall of Omens either.
He out sideboarded me. I wasn't prepared for it game 2 and it hurt. I expected it game 3 and mulled away my opening hand with 2x Duress. Honestly, he might have sided out his Leylines in game 3 knowing that I would sideboard out most discard spells. I know now that sideboarding against them should be going as aggro as possible, while getting as many 2 for 1's as possible.