Hmm - there's a lot of three drops I hadn't considered on this list.
My thoughts:
Shade's Form - Very interesting card - I like that it has shade pump and allows you to potential get a second trigger off of enter the battlefield effects. Might have to add it to my cube Rend Flesh - Solid removal that hits virtually every creature in the cube. Seems like a staple to me. Dirge of Dread - Hooray for fear! I like this card too, especially for the options it provides. Ashes to Ashes - Two for ones are always good and the life loss is fitting for a one-sided mini wrath. Crippling Fatigue - Would be playable at instant speed for combat tricks, but at sorcery speed I feel it is outclassed by other spells Bog Down and Unburden - These cards are both outclassed by Hymn to Tourach and Wrench Mind. If you want to run one, choose the Unburden as it is never a dead card. Seal of Doom - This card is a great "political" card (dare you to attack me!) in multiplayer. If your cube is set up for multiplayer, I think this card is a must. For 1v1, there are too many better removal spells. Reaping the Graves - Potential for LOLs makes this interesting - generally digs for 2 creatures if you play it right. Last Kiss - If it cost one less or did 1 more point of drain, it would be cubeable. As it is, not so much. Ichor Slick - Seems borderline - flexibility makes it playable in all stages of the game. Hideous End - Paying an extra B on top of Doom Blade to get 2 damage as well is pretty good. Eyeblight's Ending - Hits almost everything in the cube, this card is virtually as good as Rend Flesh.
I'm currently running Dead Reckoning - it's interesting as a removal/recursion spell stapled together, but it is not particularly good at either role, so I'll probably be cutting it soon for one of the other cards discussed above.
Shade's Form can 2 for 1 you. That's fine on Rancor, which comes out early, but worse here. Was decent, but not decent enough in my opinion. Rend Flesh I'm not a fan of straight removal for 2b. Thing is, this is almost a Dirge of Dread Never tried it. Evasion granting is very good in the cube, but the card itself is sooo bad. Ashes to Ashes Absolutely amazing. This is so crippling in aggro, it's never going anywhere. Crippling Fatigue Really good, always a 2 for one. May seem overcosted, maybe it is, but dealing with two guys early is great. Bog Down A card that was pretty good. I've always thought Mind Rot was a decent card, and this is better. Not very much better, mind, so it eventually got cut. Unburden Similar to Bog Down in power level, all things considered. So not quite good enough. Seal of Doom Eyeblights and Rend Flesh are just so much better. Reaping the Graves Terrible recursion. Gets you back lots of guys.... if you already have lots of guys and spells. Maybe not terrible, but bad, at least. Last Kiss is just terrible. Seriously, worse than the 2cmc removal by a long way. Ichor Slick I'm the one running this. Don't, sorcery speed is killer. Hideous End I'd run this over either Rend Flesh or Eyeblight's, but maybe that's just me. Eyeblight's Ending eh, decent.
Choking Sands is the card I'm considering the most. Not Molten Rain, but almost. And that's pretty damn good.
Before we move on, for the sake of a complete Closing Notes, could everyone give their thoughts on Soratami Cloudskater? Just, a single day to get people's opinions on this completely under the radar card.
My personal thoughts are as such: the synergy of discard the land you bounce is really interesting. When you can't afford the lands, it's a bad Looter il-Kor, but when you can, it's a 2 mana draw engine... which I hear is pretty good. Sure, it dies to pingers, but that's a given for any looter.
I'm definitely going to try it out in place of my Thought Courier (I don't want to bulk up my 2CMC section any more than I have too). Seems like it'll have a lot of promise.
I made a post about Cloudskater today before I realized someone had posted in your cube thread about it. So I deleted my post. So far the people are here like it quite well, I have not gotten a chance to play with it yet but it seems to go very high in the normal pick order.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
You always hear about the games armageddon wins 100% of the time. You never hear about the game that it rots in your hand and you get beatdown.
I too think it's very interesting and definitely merits testing. I like that it can both attack and loot much like Looter il-Kor, but this one has the option of looting whenever you want, and because of the bounced land, looting with no cards in hand is actually useful. Looting multiple times a turn also seems pretty sweet. Obviously the mana cost is a disadvantage here, and you probably won't be using this to loot on turn 3 or 4 when you really need that mana, but I can see how it would really shine in the late game. Let us know how it works out for you.
Shade's Form Too risky for the possible gain. Not a fan for reasons already listed. Rend Flesh Love this. It's just so reliable. Seems very staple.
Dirge of Dread I've tried it before, and it was alright. The thing is, I always prefer removal (even mediocre removal) to tricks that might pay off. At least it cycles. It's good, but black has so much great removal that things like this should probably be coming next in line. Decent.
Ashes to Ashes A must-play. The life loss should be negligible compared to the damage those two creatures were going to do to you anyway, not to mention the sweet tempo swing.
Crippling Fatigue This should usually 2-for-1, but it's flexible and powerful enough to be worth the high cost. Not tier 1 (maybe more like 1.5, it's close), but very cubeable.
Bog Down I don't see there being room for this if things like two mana removal can be cut. It's good at what it does, but what it does probably isn't worth running.
Unburden See Bog Down. Seal of Doom Has the benefit of being able to drop it without a target, so you can simply leave it there for later and speed your mana while having the kill-switch online and ready to play for free. I actually don't mind this. It's slow, but I would still probably use it if I drafted it. Removal is great. However, it's Tier 2 for sure, and there probably isn't room unless your cube is big.
Reaping the Graves Rubin8or outlines this perfectly. Unreliable and just... not good.
Last Kiss is just terrible. Ugh, no. SO many better options. Nameless Inversion, Seal of Doom... Just use some other mediocre removal spell. This is not worth cubing IMHO.
Ichor Slick Flexible, but still not good any way you use it. Slow, too. Nah.
Eyeblight's Ending I like this. It's fast, and very reliable. You don't want the 'terror problem' where all your removal falls short against the guy who drafted heavy black. I would rank this as one of the best non-creature 3 cmc cards for black. 2B is also very splashable.
Hideous End You can't splash for this, and it has that annoying nonblack restriction, but this is still great removal.
Oubliette I like this thing, but it's not really quite good enough compared to what else is available. Horrible if it gets hit with ench hate, since you probably really needed that guy gone if you were using 3 cmc removal on him.
Ranking the removal in this category, I'd go with...
1. Ashes to Ashes
2. Rend Flesh
3. Eyeblight's Ending
4. Crippling Fatigue (debatable)
5. Hideous End (debatable)
Except for Ashes to Ashes, the rest of the list all has pros and cons. I really feel both Rend Flesh and Eyeblight's Ending need to be cubed. 4 and 5 may or may not be worth running, and everything else... well, I don't feel they beat those, and even those are hard to squeeze in.
----
I slightly prefer Thought Courier to Cloudskater. Soratami Cloudskater sucks up your mana, and can't sustain herself as a draw engine without you running yourself short of lands to use her ability. I don't really like paying mana to 'loot' either. Worth testing though, and definitely has potential to be surprising.
This one seems easy. Unless you haven't heard of them or you just don't like them, I can't think of why you wouldn't put those three in for power reasons. They give B some of the most control over the board state and/or finishing potential it has. Work great to give you something nice and bomby to curve into, as well.
Tendrils of Corruption could be argued against, I suppose. It is a four mana kill spell. However, it has no drawbacks aside from cost and the inability to splash it (which is somewhat notable).
I was going to mention Necromantic Thirst b/c it's in my cube, but then I looked at it again and realized it only returns the creature to your hand and NOT to play like I thought it did! So it's getting cut. The three cards Lanxal put up are all solid. I'm a big fan of Evincar's Justice in particular.
I think having Tendrils of Corruption in the Cube is important. I think that the commons Cube needs a few cards in red & black that reward you for going heavily into those colors (ex: Tendrils and Corrupt). You don't want all removal to be easily splashable like Lightning Bolt and Doom Blade.
Are there any cards we could be missing or can we move on?
5 Disturbed Burial - This card is pretty pricey, but the ability to get back all those creatures that were picked off at the beginning of the game is priceless. Such a great card.
3 Death Denied - Unlike Disturbed Burial, this is only a one-time-use card, but it does most of what Burial does at instant speed, and you only have to commit that mana once. I actually prefer this card and I'm surprised it's not in all of your lists.
3 Corrupt - This wasn't originally in my cube because it requires a heavy black commitment for what is often an expensive, sorcery-speed Tendrils of Corruption. But the ability to hit players to end the game really sets this apart, and monoblack is certainly an archetype in my cube.
2 Evincar's Justice - More interesting than the fact that this is included as a 4-cost and a 7-cost spell is the fact that apparently one of you has it in your list as both...
1 Urborg Uprising - I'm not really a fan of this card. It's expensive and always outclassed by Disturbed Burial and Death Denied.
-------------------------------------
A card I have in my cube that maybe deserves some discussion is Stir the Grave. There aren't many reanimate effects in the pauper cube, and I think this one is great at what it does. Maybe I'm just overvaluing it because I love the reanimator archetype so much?
...Everyone, ignore the fact that Evincar's Justice was in this section.
I hadStir the Grave in my cube, but it's not that good. Think of it this way: compare it to Raise Dead:
Similarities:
-Both require you to pay X mana, where X is B plus the creature's converted mana cost to have the creature enter the battlefield.
-Both are sorcery speed.
Stir the Grave's advantages:
-Allows you to spend only colorless mana on the creature. Not really an issue in the late game, unless you're playing a creature that's not in your colours (why?).
Raise Dead advantages:
-Going to your hand gives you some very narrow advantages (Noble Templar plainscycling again).
-Allows you to split the cost into two turns (for some reason).
Not a lot of difference, really. And the cube doesn't really need a card that's just about as good as Raise Dead.
I haven't played with Disturbed Burial, so I don't have much to say about it. It seems extremely mana intensive compared to Death Denied, which I think I would run over it even though it is one shot compared to recursive.
Corrupt looks to be a solid finisher and rewards going heavy black. Huge life swing when aimed at the opponent's face, and that makes a large difference when compared to Tendrils. Versatility is good.
Urborg Rising is like a big Recover. When you compare it to either Death Denied or Disturbed Burial, I think I would prefer the latter two. At the same mana, albeit 1 black more intensive, Death Denied returns 3 creatures for the same card advantage while being instant. Both DD and DB are more versatile compared to it.
@Catullo: I don't think 7/450 is too many. If I had to cut some, though, I'd start with Undertaker. It ties up mana and is an underwhelming 2 drop.
As for Tendrils of Corruption and Corrupt, I wouldn't cut both of them merely because black would be better off if it can offset/recoup some of the lifeloss it gets from running its high-risk high-reward creatures and Pestilence-type effects. Those cards help, and at the common level there isn't much better.
I think Undertaker is pretty good. I'm testing him in my cube right now. He's basically a really, really good looter, because you will always draw something good.
If I had to choose between Tendrils and Corrupt, I'd have to say Tendrils. Costing less far outweighs the ability to hit face.
My thoughts:
Shade's Form - Very interesting card - I like that it has shade pump and allows you to potential get a second trigger off of enter the battlefield effects. Might have to add it to my cube
Rend Flesh - Solid removal that hits virtually every creature in the cube. Seems like a staple to me.
Dirge of Dread - Hooray for fear! I like this card too, especially for the options it provides.
Ashes to Ashes - Two for ones are always good and the life loss is fitting for a one-sided mini wrath.
Crippling Fatigue - Would be playable at instant speed for combat tricks, but at sorcery speed I feel it is outclassed by other spells
Bog Down and Unburden - These cards are both outclassed by Hymn to Tourach and Wrench Mind. If you want to run one, choose the Unburden as it is never a dead card.
Seal of Doom - This card is a great "political" card (dare you to attack me!) in multiplayer. If your cube is set up for multiplayer, I think this card is a must. For 1v1, there are too many better removal spells.
Reaping the Graves - Potential for LOLs makes this interesting - generally digs for 2 creatures if you play it right.
Last Kiss - If it cost one less or did 1 more point of drain, it would be cubeable. As it is, not so much.
Ichor Slick - Seems borderline - flexibility makes it playable in all stages of the game.
Hideous End - Paying an extra B on top of Doom Blade to get 2 damage as well is pretty good.
Eyeblight's Ending - Hits almost everything in the cube, this card is virtually as good as Rend Flesh.
I'm currently running Dead Reckoning - it's interesting as a removal/recursion spell stapled together, but it is not particularly good at either role, so I'll probably be cutting it soon for one of the other cards discussed above.
Sig courtesy of Disappointing Signet Inc.
My Cubes:
Goblin Pile Shuffler's 360 Card Pauper Cube - updated 1/4/2014
Goblin Pile Shuffler's 270 Card One-Drop Cube - updated 1/4/2014
I forgot about Form's pseudo-regenerate clause. That nullifies the auto 2-for-1, and I think I'll have to try it out.
Well, it still folds to instant speed removal in response, but that's a given for all of them. Even Rancor.
My Pauper Cube ♤ The Pauper Cube Thread Common Knowledge — 1 2
My Pauper Cube ♤ The Pauper Cube Thread Common Knowledge — 1 2
No, we're not. The cards in the cube lists are meant as a starting point. You can discuss any card in this CMC section.
The LD are good if you support that kind of thing in cube, but not a lot of people do beyond the singleton Sinkhole.
Oubliette is nice, but it's not really better than Eyeblight's Ending or Rend Flesh. Trades instant speed for killing all dudes.
Sleeper's Guile doesn't do enough for me to warrant inclusion. If it granted a power boost, it'd be awesome.
My Pauper Cube ♤ The Pauper Cube Thread Common Knowledge — 1 2
Rend Flesh I'm not a fan of straight removal for 2b. Thing is, this is almost a
Dirge of Dread Never tried it. Evasion granting is very good in the cube, but the card itself is sooo bad.
Ashes to Ashes Absolutely amazing. This is so crippling in aggro, it's never going anywhere.
Crippling Fatigue Really good, always a 2 for one. May seem overcosted, maybe it is, but dealing with two guys early is great.
Bog Down A card that was pretty good. I've always thought Mind Rot was a decent card, and this is better. Not very much better, mind, so it eventually got cut.
Unburden Similar to Bog Down in power level, all things considered. So not quite good enough.
Seal of Doom Eyeblights and Rend Flesh are just so much better.
Reaping the Graves Terrible recursion. Gets you back lots of guys.... if you already have lots of guys and spells. Maybe not terrible, but bad, at least.
Last Kiss is just terrible. Seriously, worse than the 2cmc removal by a long way.
Ichor Slick I'm the one running this. Don't, sorcery speed is killer.
Hideous End I'd run this over either Rend Flesh or Eyeblight's, but maybe that's just me.
Eyeblight's Ending eh, decent.
Choking Sands is the card I'm considering the most. Not Molten Rain, but almost. And that's pretty damn good.
Draft it on Cubetutor!
My personal thoughts are as such: the synergy of discard the land you bounce is really interesting. When you can't afford the lands, it's a bad Looter il-Kor, but when you can, it's a 2 mana draw engine... which I hear is pretty good. Sure, it dies to pingers, but that's a given for any looter.
I'm definitely going to try it out in place of my Thought Courier (I don't want to bulk up my 2CMC section any more than I have too). Seems like it'll have a lot of promise.
My Pauper Cube ♤ The Pauper Cube Thread Common Knowledge — 1 2
My Pauper Cube ♤ The Pauper Cube Thread Common Knowledge — 1 2
Rend Flesh Love this. It's just so reliable. Seems very staple.
Dirge of Dread I've tried it before, and it was alright. The thing is, I always prefer removal (even mediocre removal) to tricks that might pay off. At least it cycles. It's good, but black has so much great removal that things like this should probably be coming next in line. Decent.
Ashes to Ashes A must-play. The life loss should be negligible compared to the damage those two creatures were going to do to you anyway, not to mention the sweet tempo swing.
Crippling Fatigue This should usually 2-for-1, but it's flexible and powerful enough to be worth the high cost. Not tier 1 (maybe more like 1.5, it's close), but very cubeable.
Bog Down I don't see there being room for this if things like two mana removal can be cut. It's good at what it does, but what it does probably isn't worth running.
Unburden See Bog Down.
Seal of Doom Has the benefit of being able to drop it without a target, so you can simply leave it there for later and speed your mana while having the kill-switch online and ready to play for free. I actually don't mind this. It's slow, but I would still probably use it if I drafted it. Removal is great. However, it's Tier 2 for sure, and there probably isn't room unless your cube is big.
Reaping the Graves Rubin8or outlines this perfectly. Unreliable and just... not good.
Last Kiss is just terrible. Ugh, no. SO many better options. Nameless Inversion, Seal of Doom... Just use some other mediocre removal spell. This is not worth cubing IMHO.
Ichor Slick Flexible, but still not good any way you use it. Slow, too. Nah.
Eyeblight's Ending I like this. It's fast, and very reliable. You don't want the 'terror problem' where all your removal falls short against the guy who drafted heavy black. I would rank this as one of the best non-creature 3 cmc cards for black. 2B is also very splashable.
Hideous End You can't splash for this, and it has that annoying nonblack restriction, but this is still great removal.
Oubliette I like this thing, but it's not really quite good enough compared to what else is available. Horrible if it gets hit with ench hate, since you probably really needed that guy gone if you were using 3 cmc removal on him.
Ranking the removal in this category, I'd go with...
1. Ashes to Ashes
2. Rend Flesh
3. Eyeblight's Ending
4. Crippling Fatigue (debatable)
5. Hideous End (debatable)
Except for Ashes to Ashes, the rest of the list all has pros and cons. I really feel both Rend Flesh and Eyeblight's Ending need to be cubed. 4 and 5 may or may not be worth running, and everything else... well, I don't feel they beat those, and even those are hard to squeeze in.
----
I slightly prefer Thought Courier to Cloudskater. Soratami Cloudskater sucks up your mana, and can't sustain herself as a draw engine without you running yourself short of lands to use her ability. I don't really like paying mana to 'loot' either. Worth testing though, and definitely has potential to be surprising.
=Cameron=
G Omnath, Locus of Mana G
=CUBE=
Pauper {360} 2013 REVIVAL UPDATE
6 Pestilence
5 Evincar's Justice
5 Tendrils of Corruption
My Pauper Cube ♤ The Pauper Cube Thread Common Knowledge — 1 2
This one seems easy. Unless you haven't heard of them or you just don't like them, I can't think of why you wouldn't put those three in for power reasons. They give B some of the most control over the board state and/or finishing potential it has. Work great to give you something nice and bomby to curve into, as well.
Tendrils of Corruption could be argued against, I suppose. It is a four mana kill spell. However, it has no drawbacks aside from cost and the inability to splash it (which is somewhat notable).
=Cameron=
G Omnath, Locus of Mana G
=CUBE=
Pauper {360} 2013 REVIVAL UPDATE
Sig courtesy of Disappointing Signet Inc.
My Cubes:
Goblin Pile Shuffler's 360 Card Pauper Cube - updated 1/4/2014
Goblin Pile Shuffler's 270 Card One-Drop Cube - updated 1/4/2014
Are there any cards we could be missing or can we move on?
My 540 card Powered Cube last updated March 2022
BLACK NONCREATURES 5+/X CMC
5 Disturbed Burial
3 Death Denied
3 Corrupt
1 Urborg Uprising
My Pauper Cube ♤ The Pauper Cube Thread Common Knowledge — 1 2
3 Death Denied - Unlike Disturbed Burial, this is only a one-time-use card, but it does most of what Burial does at instant speed, and you only have to commit that mana once. I actually prefer this card and I'm surprised it's not in all of your lists.
3 Corrupt - This wasn't originally in my cube because it requires a heavy black commitment for what is often an expensive, sorcery-speed Tendrils of Corruption. But the ability to hit players to end the game really sets this apart, and monoblack is certainly an archetype in my cube.
2 Evincar's Justice - More interesting than the fact that this is included as a 4-cost and a 7-cost spell is the fact that apparently one of you has it in your list as both...
1 Urborg Uprising - I'm not really a fan of this card. It's expensive and always outclassed by Disturbed Burial and Death Denied.
-------------------------------------
A card I have in my cube that maybe deserves some discussion is Stir the Grave. There aren't many reanimate effects in the pauper cube, and I think this one is great at what it does. Maybe I'm just overvaluing it because I love the reanimator archetype so much?
I had Stir the Grave in my cube, but it's not that good. Think of it this way: compare it to Raise Dead:
Similarities:
-Both require you to pay X mana, where X is B plus the creature's converted mana cost to have the creature enter the battlefield.
-Both are sorcery speed.
Stir the Grave's advantages:
-Allows you to spend only colorless mana on the creature. Not really an issue in the late game, unless you're playing a creature that's not in your colours (why?).
Raise Dead advantages:
-Going to your hand gives you some very narrow advantages (Noble Templar plainscycling again).
-Allows you to split the cost into two turns (for some reason).
Not a lot of difference, really. And the cube doesn't really need a card that's just about as good as Raise Dead.
My Pauper Cube ♤ The Pauper Cube Thread Common Knowledge — 1 2
I haven't played with Disturbed Burial, so I don't have much to say about it. It seems extremely mana intensive compared to Death Denied, which I think I would run over it even though it is one shot compared to recursive.
Corrupt looks to be a solid finisher and rewards going heavy black. Huge life swing when aimed at the opponent's face, and that makes a large difference when compared to Tendrils. Versatility is good.
Urborg Rising is like a big Recover. When you compare it to either Death Denied or Disturbed Burial, I think I would prefer the latter two. At the same mana, albeit 1 black more intensive, Death Denied returns 3 creatures for the same card advantage while being instant. Both DD and DB are more versatile compared to it.
Cubetutor link - 380 Peasant Cube
My Pauper Cube ♤ The Pauper Cube Thread Common Knowledge — 1 2
As for Tendrils of Corruption and Corrupt, I wouldn't cut both of them merely because black would be better off if it can offset/recoup some of the lifeloss it gets from running its high-risk high-reward creatures and Pestilence-type effects. Those cards help, and at the common level there isn't much better.
Cubetutor link - 380 Peasant Cube
If I had to choose between Tendrils and Corrupt, I'd have to say Tendrils. Costing less far outweighs the ability to hit face.
My Pauper Cube ♤ The Pauper Cube Thread Common Knowledge — 1 2
NBD: Ghastly Demise (love this card!), Dawn Charm
I'm a fan of all but Urborg Uprising, which appears to not be a very unique point of view here.
=Cameron=
G Omnath, Locus of Mana G
=CUBE=
Pauper {360} 2013 REVIVAL UPDATE