In short, I like brainstorm. It is the best card in legacy.
The long answer, Brainstorm was really solid. It allows you to put cards on top of your library, like bridge and ichorid, that can be dredged into your library at the next draw. It protects your powerful draw/discard effects from thoughtseize and unmask. In the mid game (if you have a hand or a mid game, lol) it draws three which is one huge dredge.
I am going to try and streamline this build a bit and I think going to 3 brainstorms may be a good roleplayer for that direction. I liked brainstorm more in sideboarded games when you generally slow roll the dredging and boarding out some number of breakthroughs is correct. It finds null rods, :).
"Brainstorm is the best card in legacy" is arguably a true statement, but that doesn't mean every deck with blue should play it. See: Merfolk. But it's tempting to bring into Dredge, seems pretty good. My only fear is that, comparing this to a general build, you're replacing something that acts as a draw and a discard outlet (Tireless Tribe or Hapless Researcher (or that tappy-down guy)), for more draw. Of course it can also dig you to a discard outlet, but then you'd still just rather have the discard outlet on turn one.
But, it's only a 2-3-of, and you can't argue with results. It also seems quite good post-board as you say, to dig for the stuff you need to be in hand and not in the yard, like Null Rod, Nature's Claim, etc. If only I could play it post-board and not pre-board but not waste a sideboard slot on it...
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Legacy Decks I'm Currently Running:
U Merfolk U UGW NO Bant UGW UGWRB Dredge! UGWRB
Other Legacy Decks I Own:
RGW Zoo! RGW BGW Junk BGW RGWB Aggro Loam RGWB BW Deadguy BW W Death & Taxes (almost!) W GW Green & Taxes GW BGW Junk & Taxes BGW
brainstorm is one of those "dead horses" I feel people playing dredge will never stop sapping discussion out of.
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Collaborative Pub: Ice Cold Thoughts Always On Tap Twitter- RogueSource.
Decks: "Name one! I probably got it built In one of these boxes."
--------------------------------------------------- Vintage will rise again!Buy a Mox today!
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[I]Some call it dig through time, when really your digging through CRAP!
Merfolk! showing magic players what a shower is since Lorwyn!
Tolarian Winds is an interesting card to consider. It seems better in the builds with a few extra lands. Most lists are running between 13 and 16 land. It is definately super powerful but the two mana could be an issue especially with all the wastelands about.
TW is also an all in type card like breakthrough. This means after game one it could become a liablity as getting to aggressive with dredging can lead to being blown out by hate.
With my list (14 land), I found it hard to rely on having 2 land in play against wasteland decks. It is also harder to play around daze with a 2 drop. If it resolves... seems disgusting. Especially with a dredger or two in hand.
Tolarian Winds is an interesting card to consider. It seems better in the builds with a few extra lands. Most lists are running between 13 and 16 land. It is definately super powerful but the two mana could be an issue especially with all the wastelands about.
TW is also an all in type card like breakthrough. This means after game one it could become a liablity as getting to aggressive with dredging can lead to being blown out by hate.
With my list (14 land), I found it hard to rely on having 2 land in play against wasteland decks. It is also harder to play around daze with a 2 drop. If it resolves... seems disgusting. Especially with a dredger or two in hand.
Winds is a very strong card; with multiple dredgers in hand, you will probably win on the next turn. The problem is that you cannot rely on having that second land.
I've recently picked up dredge and started on my own list. what i'm wondering is how i arrived at this list, which is relatively differant from many lists. then again i also started out trying to run both ichorid and bloodghast.
part of my problem may be that i don't have enough enablers. the deck feels like it works, but every once in awhile i can just tell something is missing.
its possible that because of my dislike for careful study(it just feels like a trap, because it neither allows me to dredge enough cards, nor is it an permanent enabler)
so heres the list i eventually came to. and i'm just curious what you guys would have me change. perhaps its in cutting an ichorid for the fourth tribe, i have no idea. i'm really at a loss right now. the deck can 9/10 go off without a hitch, but every once in awhile you just get...do nothing hands.
I think you have too many DR targets by one (plus why Sage over the beefier Sphinx?), and not enough card draw. Plus I think 4 Tribe is the right number. The problem with counting Coliseum as card draw is that you have to hit threshold first, which card draw helps you do, so it's kind of cyclical. I think that's why most standard builds run some number of Studies - it gives you more discard outlets AND more draw spells (like a smaller Breakthrough). It seems "not good" in the context of Dredge's incredible raw power, but it's actually a perfect sort of card I think.
It's impressive that your own build has come so close to a standard build, but I would probably just start with a standard build and goldfish/play it a number of times, then decide what you like and don't like and alter it from there. There are some standard builds that run both Ich and B'ghast too, if you like to run both, so you could start with one of those.
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Legacy Decks I'm Currently Running:
U Merfolk U UGW NO Bant UGW UGWRB Dredge! UGWRB
Other Legacy Decks I Own:
RGW Zoo! RGW BGW Junk BGW RGWB Aggro Loam RGWB BW Deadguy BW W Death & Taxes (almost!) W GW Green & Taxes GW BGW Junk & Taxes BGW
the sage over the sphinx because it allows you to keep a card in hand, so you can dredge the dakmor, and play it to recur ghasts.
the sages function as more card draw if you will, just like the sphinx, except that because i'm running even less card draw than most i added a second one. as well as the important thing seemed to be the draw 3, as 3 was enough to usually go off, where as 2 was not.
also i mispoke, i meant that a built it on my own with the combination of many differant articles and what not. not so much that a built the entire deck on my own.
perhaps go -1 sage, +1 study? as that is the entire problem with the deck. i have too much end combo support, and not enough begining. the 8 draws are pretty good, and generally plenty, and the 6 creatures give me a solid backup creature plan, so i really should use it. but i wouldn't know what that knowledge would lead me to cut.
EDIT: perhaps go -1 salvage, -1 sage, +2 careful study? and then swap the last sage for a sphinx. considering the salvage was the only reason i ran the sages.
perhaps cut a cabal therapy? is that ever appropriate, alot of people do it, but it really seems like dredges best weapon in general, as if they resolve say a moat or something G1 you pretty much just scoop.
I'd suggest -1 c.sage, -1 c.therapy, -1 t.tribe, +3 c.study. careful study counts both as a draw and discard component. IMO it's a better enabler than therapy since you don't expose your hand to your opponent and reveal your strategy. it also helps in digging for sideboard cards during post board games.
Hey everyone, I went to Jupiter Games in Vestal today and managed to get 4th (out of 82) with Dredge. I'll post up my report (it'll be relatively brief) and decklist (made some small changes to my normal list). I was really happy with how the deck performed and I definitely learned a lot about Dredge and how to play out match ups and I think I can comment on the match ups more concretely than before.
yeah i've read the thread, and realize that it reveals the hand. its moreso hand disruption, than an enabler, just the last ditch enabler if need be.
also since i'm only running the one sage, i figure i may as well cut it for iona.
since sage seems like just furthering the combo, and iona wins on the spot, against most decks anyway. is angel of despair better than iona though? whats the standard opinion on angel of despair vs iona?
Congrats on the finish Zirath. Looking forward to read your report.
@Watoo24: Angel of Despair is an answer against reanimator (Blazing Archon). Iona is a better option against the rest of the field. My vote goes to Iona.
The week before the event, I was in Dallas visiting my family and decided to go to the SCG open there as well. Day one I performed poorly, eventually dropping to trade the rest of the day. I made so much in trading that I decided to make that and EDH my focus Day two. After I told my local crew about my success, they decided a trip to LA was in order. David Vinson, Sean Cowan, Devan Cooper, and I all hopped in my little Nissan and hit the road. We made good time, getting there at like 2030.
At first, when David told me we were going to be staying in the Ritz, I was super excited. Upon arriving, I learn we are not staying in the elegant Ritz Carlton, but the Ritz Milner, a raggedy cramped hotel that looks like one big fire hazard and whose elevators haven’t been inspected in God knows how long. We ascend the 7 flights of stairs to our little 1-bed closet and drop our stuff off. David goes to playtest with some friends since he planned to play in Day 1, and the rest of us hit up the town.
If you’ve never been to LA, then I suggest you put it on your to-do list. It’s a really great city. There’s a lot to do, and the food is pretty good (although not Portland good). We hit up LA Live, which is the busy center of town, and hang out around the Staples Center and see the sights. We get back at around 2300 and are all pretty tired. David convinces me to help him test for tomorrow, so I grab my janky GB Mimic Vat deck, and show his Boros who’s boss. Note: Obstinate Baloth on a Vat is strong. After a 2-1 victory, we hit the hay, agreeing to wake up at 8 and get there when they open at 9.
I wake up to my alarm at 0758, and realize I’m the only one in the room. I call Devan, and it turns out they all went to the event without me, which is bad cuz I have no idea how to get there. After finding a fellow Magic player who was also staying in our hotel (the Crown Royal dice bag was a dead give-away), I make my way to the LA Convention Center. Upon arriving, I learn the location is also hosting Adultcon 2011,which I decide is a great way to pass the time later if the trading goes weak later that day (unfortunately it doesn’t). After a busy day of trade-ups and an 0-2 drop from David, we head by the Legacy Challenge to see what’s getting slung around. There I see my old friend Tom Ma, where we have this little discussion.
Tom: “You playing tomorrow?”
Me: “Nah, prolly just trading.”
Tom: “You play Dredge, right?”
Me: “Yeah, why?”
Tom: “Play dredge”
This statement was followed by one of those stares. You know, the ones that mean “you’re an idiot if you don’t listen to me.” We go back to the room, and I think about what Tom said. I look at my Dredge deck and think “Why not?”. I think about some sideboard choices before calling it good, and then hit the hay on my sliver of bed while the other three threw down some EDH shenanigans on the rest of it.
We wake up early and head to the sight, and I begin to register my 75. While waiting for the thing to start, we head to the trade tables and catch up with a guy we met the previous day. After about 10 minutes of convincing him Tarmogoyf is better for his GB stompy deck than Wild Mongrel, we’re off to the Player Meeting, where I sit across from my Tom. Pairings go up, and the action finally starts.
Round 1 vs. Hank Zhong (NO and Tell)
Game one my opponent leads off with a Noble Hierarch off of a Savanna as to disguise his deck type, and I begin with a Tireless Tribe. Turn two Hank plays a City of Traitors followed by Show and Tell. I chose Ichorid, and my opponent met me with a Progenitus. He passed, and with the Ichorid trigger on the stack I pitched a Bridge from Below and a dredger, netting a zombie. I dredged and broke a Coliseum, swung at my opponent, made some more zombies, and ended. My opponent swung in for 10 and passed. I brought back 2 Ichorids and cracked back for game. Game 2 I Therapied for Show and Tell, hit one, then flashback hit a NO. It was pretty much over from there.
You want to hit their creatures so they can’t NO and Therapy them for cheat cards. Bring anti-hate if you expect hate, but most players just try to race you. And watch out for SB Blazing Archon.
1-0
Round 2 vs. Derrick Cabrera (UW Tempo)
I lead with a rainbow land and a tribe again. My dredges are pretty weak, might have been with thug. My opponent goes Wasteland, Island Vial, Plains into Mystic for Jitte. I continue to Brick, and Derrick lands a Jotun Grunt. I’m able to stall it a bit and eventually it dies at 4 counters. After that I start to hit gas and take him down
My opponent goes turn 2 wheel of Sun and Moon, and I am forced into the beat with 1/1s plan. Between the pain lands, 1/1 beaters, and my opponent using 4 Swords to Plowshares and 3 FoW, the score gets to like 16-13 in my favor before he drops a Grunt and a Jitte. I Needle the Jitte, and Grunt starts to crack in. Fortunately he can only pay the cost twice before it dies and is replaced by another. I go to 4 and the new Grunt is sacked. It looks like a stalemate before my opponent finally plays a creature in the form of a Morph. It attacks. 2. I pass. It attacks Lethal. My opponent picks his cards up and shuffles for game 3.
Now, for those of you who are unfamiliar with Morph creatures, let me share a little info about how Morphs work. If a card has Morph, you can pay 3 mana to cast it as a face-down as a 2/2. The only thing is, at the end of the game, you must reveal the card to confirm it has Morph, which my opponent failed to do. I noticed this and immediately called a Judge over. I explained what happened, and my opponent couldn’t believe what he had done. He agreed that he had forgotten, and accepted the penalty for the violation, which in this case is a Game Loss. I hate to win a game by a penalty, but in a large tournament you have to understand how your cards work. Derrick was understanding and took it like a like a Magic player should, stating that he learned something from it and will never make that mistake again.
They don’t have many big threats, so kill them off and you can usually just coast. They do have a plethora of hate cards though, so Claim is usually strong. At its worst it can kill equips.
Round 3 vs. Liam Kane (TPS)
Game 1 my opponent won the roll, made 8 goblins turn 2, and killed me in a close battle of tokens. Game 2 I chose not to side, as on the play I felt I could race his deck. I had a turn 2 Breakthrough and 3 Bridges, beat with Ichorid and Tribe, and Dread Returned another Ichorid for 12 Zombies EOT. My opponent had to try to go off and whiffed 3 cards in. Game 3 I brought in Mindbreak and Therapy. My opponent lead with land-go. I played a careful study and pitched dredger and Bridge. My opponent passed back. I Therapied for Infernal Tutor, whiffing, but seeing 3 DRit, a Burning Wish, a Chrome mox, and something else (ponder?). I think a bit, cast Pimp, pitch my hand, and Flashback naming DRit. This way even if he draws a mana source or red card for Mox he still can’t go off due to lack of mana. I get like 7 zombies out next turn. My opponent wishes for a Diminishing Returns and passes. I beat and pass. My opponent EOTs a Brainstorm. He drops a blue Mox and a land and cast Diminishing Returns. We get our seven, and mine has a Mindbreak Trap. Turns out it’s unnecessary, as he can’t get enough mana or storm to kill me.
I only sided on the draw. You can usually race them on the play, but some
might not want to chance it.
3-0
Round 4 vs. AJ Sacher (NO Bant)
As someone who has read AJ’s articles, it was pretty intimidating being paired up against him. That being said, AJ was a great opponent, and was a pleasure to play against. Game 1 he opens with a Hierarch, and I have a weak T1 Tribe pitching Thug start. He Zeniths for zero getting an Arbor, and I Therapy him. He brainstorms in response to hide the NO, and I call FoW. During his next turn he NOs a Progenitus, and I am unable to race.
He makes a comment about not being prepared for this match-up post SB, and I give a little grin. A lot of people have a poor mindset about the deck and hope they will avoid it or just outplay the Dredge player. This is a costly mistake, as Dredge in the hands of a seasoned player is as dangerous a weapon as any. The deck tends to get a rep as a beginner Legacy deck due to price and ease of play. While somewhat true, does not make it any less powerful. I hope that after this tournament people will come to see Dredge as a contender, and not just a random “variance”deck.
Game 2 I am able to rip his hand up pretty well, getting an Iona on white while he has 3 STP in hand and Therapying him for GSZ while he has 2 in hand and only 3 land. He sees he has no outs to the flyer and we’re off to game 3. He opens with a Pithing Needle on Tireless Tribe. “Play ye olde 1/1 for one?” he responds. I go “Sure” and plop down a Putrid Imp. It goes at a reasonable pace from there, with him eventually falling to a group of about 11 zombies. The match was close the whole way, and all in all a good experience.
I woulda brought in more, but he made that comment about not having a SB
plan.
4-0
Round 5 vs. Rick Chong (Fish)
I sat down from my round 5 opponent and easily put him on Folk. You ever just get one of those feelings? Yeah, follow them. Your gut is more right than not. Anyway, he opens with turn 1 Island into Vial and not much else for the rest of the match. I think I saw maybe 5 cards. Not that he was a bad player, as he was 4-0. Just sometimes dude strategies are a bit too slow for this deck. I think I ripped his hand up a bit before getting too far for him to come back. Therapy is pretty good against 4-of decks. Just watch out for Cursecatcher popping Bridges.
Folk likes to bring in artifacts to hate you. And the firestorms are good for roasting lords or drawing out FoW.
5-0
Round 6 vs. Joe Lossett (Cephalid Breakfast)
Yup, that’s right. I played Joe before the semi’s, and it was much more interesting here than on that 10 minute video. See, I have a pretty poor history against Cephalid Breakfast. Back at SCG Dallas 2010 it was my only loss, and I went 5-1-1 to finish 10th. So of course I would face off to it here. Anyways, he starts with a Savannah into Vial, and all I can do is pray. I pray that he’s playing Green and Taxes and somehow went 5-0. I pray that he’s playing some cool new Bant homebrew. I pray that it’s anything but Breakfast. I play tribe and end. He plays Nomad off the vial and Illusionist off a Tundra,
and we’re off to game 2.
Game 2 went pretty rough for him. He mulled a bit, and I got Iona on Black. He gets the combo out, but is forced to concede with no way to win. Game 3 is where it gets interesting. He leads with Nomads. I lay Needle on Nomads. He swings and ends. I Therapy him, name Worldly Tutor, and whiff after seeing some junk, Illusionist, and Qasali Pridemage. I tank for a bit, cast my Tribe, pitch my hand minus 1, and Flashback therapy naming the Pridemage. Now. He gets land and casts Illusionist and passes. I star the beat with 1/1 plan. He drops more land. I turn dudes sideways. He gets to four land eventually. I swing with a narc, 2 thugs, and a zombie, putting him at 3. Doing It! He draws and stares at his card. Then he looks at me. Then back at his card. “Well this is interesting” he says. I say “you got it?” He plays a land and taps out for Karmic Guide. My heart sinks. He gets back Pridemage. I look, he’s tapped out, and has to pass. I peek at my top card. Needle!!! Then this little exchange happens.
Me: “Needle”
Joe: “Daze?”
Me: “Sure, pay 1.”
Joe: “Daze again?”
Me: laugh. “Sure dude, pay 1.”
Joe: “Daze.”
Me: “REALLY?? Triple Daze??!?”
Joe: “yup!”
He proceeds to win next turn. I’m stuck at 5-1 at this point, and have to play it out to try to top 8. Afterwards Joe’s friend comes by and they talk about Dread Returning stuff, and I make a note of it. We go to round 7, and he goes off to sign his piece of paper. Must. Be. Nice.
You gotta side big for combo. It makes playing the deck rough, but not siding is auto-lose. Needle Nomads, roast solo pieces, and Mindbreak Drea Returns.
5-1
Round 7 vs. Jason Bulkowski (Dredge)
My opponent is none other than Joe’s friend from last round, and I put him on Breakfast too. Game 1 he doesn’t play a single card, and I beat him turn 3. Game 2 he leads off with Leyline, and I start looking for Claim. The he starts Dredging stuff. I’m like “crap, I sided for the wrong matchup” but it doesn’t matter as I never draw Claim. Game 3 he mulls to 6, thinks a bit, and keeps. I start with a Therapy on Breakthrough (always the right play) and see no land and 2 Breakthroughs mixed with dredgers and Dread Return. He doesn’t draw any land and I take the match.
You can usually hit everything with this, and the game is really complex. You can maybe afford to move a bit more Careful Study out, but not any Ichorids.
6-1
Round 8 vs. Timothy Froehlig (Dredge)
My opponent refuses the draw with him at 7th and me at 5th, so we’re off to play. We sat next to each other a bit, so we knew we were both on Dredge. I lead with tribe, and he plays Careful Study. I Therapy him for Breakthrough, hit, and from there I take the lead with a Cephalid Coliseum and a Careful Study. We side a bit, and begin game 2. He leads a bit strong, and I can’t follow. After game 2 he says “and that’s why this is a skill game”. And I’m like Really douche? So we go to game 2 and he keeps a no-lander. I rip 3 Breakthrough’s from him and beat him like turn 3. Then he makes a comment about him losing cuz the die roll, tells me how I should have played, and I’m off to the Top 8.
7-1
Note on the mirror match and douchebags: So the mirror is a lot more complicated than it seems. Why it’s not impossible for one player to just nut-draw and win, it’s generally an attrition game based off of timely Cabal Therapies and Ichorid triggers. Bridge is a limited resource in the mirror, as all it takes is a Flasback spell or and EOT Ichorid to get rid of them. This, combined with the constant fear of a perfect Dredge into FKZ make the match a complex game of cat-and-also-cat. I have had mirror matches go for an upwards of 35 minutes, and the combat math when figuring how many zombies to swing with it awkward. Keep your game-face on, and play tight. It’s rough. Finally, don’t be a douche. It doesn’t make you any better of a player.
After I hand the match result slip to the Judge, I reach down to grab my bagpack, only to whiff. Someone grabbed it mid-match. Luckily, I still had my deck in my hands, so I was able to play in the following rounds, but minus 2-3k in cards is not cool. Listen to the judges and keep your stuff guarded. Loop it under a chair leg or something. Just don’t let it get away from you, cuz you will not get it back.
After about an hour, we sit down and fill out a fun little survey. Then we got our decks back and split up to duke it out.
Quarterfinals vs. Wil Strickland (NO Elves)
The match can be followed here <http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/21512_Quarterfinals_Frankie_Mach_vs_Wil_Strickland.html> .
There’s not really a lot left to be said. Game 1 was pretty close. I was sure I was done when he NOed, as I had no way of racing Progenitus. Turns out it was stuck in his hand. I luckily I was able to stabilize at 3, and the topdeck land was too good. Wil was a good opponent, and I hope to play him again someday.
The "Firestorm play": This is referring to my Firestorming the Pridemage game 2 in the semis. Ok, so I hear people saying that I jumped the gun on this play, and that I should have held the Firestorm for a combo piece as to stifle the combo. The fact is, holding Firestorm would have done nothing. If I had waited, my opponent would have dropped the Nomad first, and I could not touch it or the Illusionist, as Nomads couldn't be killed with Qasali on the battlefield, and he coulda just comboed in response if he landed the illusionist. This led me to the play of Firestorm the Pridemage. Now, Firestorming here does 4 important things. One, it gets rid of the thug in my hand, allowing me to begin my plan of Dredging. Two, it makes my Cephalid Coliseum live next turn, allowing me to possibly win on the spot (one of the cards I would have dredged was a Troll). Three, even if my opponent did have the Macabre, which I knew he played due to previous experience, I would now have the possibility of drawing another Firestorm or a Needle, thus giving me a way to shut down his play. And 4, it would give me the opportunity to cap my opponent with Cephalid Coliseum to deck him out. While it is unsure if my opponent would have just flipped his deck or gone one activation at a time, the play is still relevant, as it could plausibly happen. You have to be aware of all your outs at all times, and play accordingly.
Joe was a great opponent all the way through, and I’m glad that he was the player I had to lose to (both times). Hopefully someone can get something off this report, as I love the deck, and would love to see someone place higher than me with it. I’m just sorry it couldn’t have been a win!
Props: My friends for making the trip with me, Star City Games, good opponents, great judges, that cute female judge.
Slops: The Ritz Milner, bad opponents, thiefs, and the thousands of bugs still stuck to my car.
P.S.: sorry about grammar, hyperlinks, card tags, etc. This was typed on my phone.
Nice report Frankie. I think the Firestorm play is fine. There was no right answer in that situation honestly.
Here's my pretty brief report since I didn't take down notes. On Jupiter Games (if you have trouble finding it) I am Timur Babakol playing Tribal Zombies! (they took a pretty good pic of me wearing this shirt: http://shirt.woot.com/friends.aspx?k=17741). First my list:
Pretty standard list. I was trying out Blazing Archon since I was unsure how good it is. Otherwise my list is pretty standard. Darkslick Shores went in because I didn't have a second Citadel.
Round 1: Affinity (Tezzeret Build)
Game 1 I had double Coliseum and, despite my opponent dropping his entire hand of 3 Thopters, Drum, Memnite and Myr Enforcer turn 1, I attack with 8 Zombies and FKZ on turn 3, killing him.
Pretty sure I boarded in Archon > Iona and 3 Nature's Claim in this game. Didn't matter much though since I killed him on turn 3 again after he lands Tezzeret. He seemed pretty upset with me about it but honestly he has no interaction with me besides beating face so honestly there's not much he can do about my plan.
Round 2: Black and Taxes/Dead Guy Hybrid
This is actually one of my friends I drove up with. He's pretty new to Legacy and he actually was pretty excited to win against Junk round 1 but knew he didn't have much of a chance against me both because his deck didn't have a good plan (the discard is too weak) and because he had no grave hate. He end up pairing against combo for 4 rounds, which is a little disorienting for people new to legacy.
Game 1 I got greedy and started Dredging really late and just got overwhelmed.
Game 2 and 3 I board in Firestorms and Dredge much better and he gets overwhelmed by Zombies pretty quick.
Round 3: NO Bant (AJ Sacher's deck)
Game 1 my opponent casts multiple Green Sun's Zenith and gets a board of guys but its no good against the Zombie horde.
Game 2 I board in Archon since I figure his only out is Swords (I'm right about this), 2 Chain of Vapor and 3 Firestorm so I can control his board. I do get going with my dredging pretty easily but my opponent puts out a Cold Eyed Selkie with Sword of Fire and Ice with Noble Hierarch. I chump with a Zombie. At this point, my yard is a little weak and I have spent most of my time building up Zombies with Ichorid. I dredge and hit a Dread Return. My opponent has 1 card in hand and I think for a second. I cast Therapy naming Daze. He show Loaming Shaman and I go for Archon with him at 13. 3 Turns later, Archon rides his Lion to victory. In the case he did pull a way out earlier (or a blocker), I had I had Chain of Vapor and Firestorm in hand ready to clean him out.
Round 4: Merfolk
I got too greedy in these games. Very stupid. I started dredging late both games and just let him get board advantage. I should have easily won (I learned my lesson as I beat Fish in the Quarters). A little embarrassed at how greedy I got.
Round 5: Canadian Threshold
My opponent is play the old school Nimble Mongoose plan of Threshold. As soon as I see him drop Mongoose turn 1, I begin the Draw-Pitch plan and build up my army. I protect my spells with a single land once I build up my yard enough and eventually beat him to death with Ichorid.
I board in Archon again and figure naming blue or red will kinda win me the game. Chain of Vapor and Firestorm go in as well so I can fight his beats. Game 2 goes similar to the first and he doesn't have much of a way out even with double Goyf.
Round 6: Junk
My opponent is a little loose with Junk, which definitely helped. I kill him quick game 1 due to his weak draw of discard spells after double mulligan.
I board in Chain of Vapor and Nature's Claim. I thought Firestorm wouldn't be strong enough against Knights and Goyf. Too much pain back at me.
My opponent gets a turn 3 Engineered Plague naming Zombies and then realized he doesn't know for sure if Ichorid is a Zombie (its not) and he suffers for it as he goes to 2. I Dread Return Iona and he is torn to use Knight to get either Karakas or Bojuka Bog. Either way, he's dead since I chipped him down to 2 with Zombies.
Round 7: Team America (Dark Confidant build)
My opponent and I drew here. Looking at the board, I was guaranteed 9th at least if I drew and my opponent was in the top 8 and I didn't care that much about the top 8, I was happy with 9th at that point (first big legacy tournament). We played anyways just for the fun of it.
My opponent got me game 1 with quick beats.
Game 2 and 3 my opponent played sloppy and killed my creatures and gave me many Zombies. Eli was watching and told him he needs to Darkblast his Confidant to exile Bridge. I think the match up wasn't too bad.
So I go and call my girlfriend and talk with some friends from my hometown in Jersey and suddenly I hear "Timur Babakol, please come for deck check." Apparently, the person who had a chance to top 8 lost his match and I get 8th. After deck check, I shuffle up and play the quarters.
Quarter Finals: Merfolk
Game 1 my opponent is on the play and I see Island -> Vial. I immediately go for the Draw-Pitch plan with a lot of gas in my hand. I pretty quickly overwhelm him with just a single Bridge and he can't stop it with all the permission stuck in his hand.
Game 2 I board in Archon, 3 Firestorm and 3 Chain of Vapor taking out Iona, and some 1 mana discard outs and a Thug. My opponent chooses to draw, which hurt me a little since my hand wasn't good enough to mull but had no turn 1 plays. He stick a jitte quickly and double mutavault and I die quick before being able to assemble anything.
Game 3 I go on the draw and he keeps a hand with Vial and double Wasteland, which hurts him as I neglect to play lands. He goes down quick to Ichorid and Zombie beats.
Semi Finals: Junk
Game 1 was epic. I punted for sure but it was a great game. I got greedy and I Dread Returned Iona naming white and figured I was safe. Being stupid, I forgot about Karakas and Bojuka Bog and accidentally pitched all my Dredgers so I was back to square one. My opponent figured he had me at this point and after a turn or two I rip Breakthrough with Stinkweed Imp in my hand. I think for a second and then discard Imp and Breakthrough, dredging 21 cards (you guys can do the math on what I hit) and I was back into the game with double Narcomoeba and my last Bridge. He eventually has to fetch up Maze of Ith to stop my Narcomoeba from killing him (he goes to 2). I draw Cabal Therapy with 3 cards in my library and cast it. He Swords his own Knight to bring him back up to 13 and after Dread Returning a troll, I don't really have enough board position to get back into the game fully with Maze of Ith and his blockers.
Game 2 I board in Terrastrodon over Iona and 3 Chain of Vapor. It was no good since my opponent went Nihil Spellbomb, Qasali Pridgemage and Knight of the Reliquary and I just couldn't get going. My opponent definitely gave me respect for my playing since he didn't leave me any outs (Diabolic Edict on my turn 1 Tribe, Wasted my lands whenever he could so I couldn't make any plays). He didn't leave me a corner, which is both good and bad.
I am fine with 4th since I thought I was gonna scrub out. Made $80 in store credit and I believe I really learned a lot about this deck.
I have made a few realizations about the deck in general which I think I should mention:
1) Ichorid is a house. Alone, it is able to dominate an enormous number of match ups. Bloodghast is fine and it has merits, but the extra power, automatic haste and the built in Zombie generation are all incredibly powerful. The exile cost was never a problem for me.
2) Iona. She didn't perform today. I don't know what to think fully about her. People have spent so much time fighting Emrakul that we see splash damage. I don't think I want to play her anymore. She just doesn't do it anymore. I can win fringe matches with it, but the top decks can answer her and she is much worse in the main.
3) Blazing Archon. This little man and his kitty were phenomenal today. When he came onto the board, if I set up with Therapy, my opponent had no way out usually. I highly recommend trying it since it definitely hurts many match ups.
4) No Ancient Grudge/Ray of Revelation. Nature's Claim and Chain of Vapor are so versatile than I believe I do not need these other two. Many games I am forced to revert to regular draws and I don't mind digging for Chain or Claim.
I think Tempo match ups aren't bad for us. They aren't good necessarily but if you initiate the Draw-Pitch plan, you can completely nullify many of their cards.
I have made a token based on my shirt which I'm gonna use from now on for Zombies:
Just finished watching the SCG Legacy Open. 2 dredge decks in the top 8 of SCG ATL. the LED version defeated the nonLED with LoTV and made it to the finals losing to high tide. I think there's still not much hate on the field which is why even LED builds can be successful.
The LED build isn't a bad deck, its just more susceptible to hate. People are still light on graveyard hate, which is part of the reason I had an easy time top 4ing yesterday. Once it picks up a little bit, we'll start to see more dedication.
But for sure, Dredge is coming out as a strong contender in this format. Despite all the haters and people not knowing how dredge works, we are really putting it to work.
I watched David Thomas' match against the second Hatfield and I couldn't tell his exact board position but he might have gotten greedy somewhere. I was surprised he didn't muster up Angel of Despair to blow out lands anywhere in his pile with 10ish cards left. I supposed it happens though.
not even the announcers knew how in the hell dredge worked it was ridiculous. (well alright verhey did, but jesus sullivan was...yeah)
is the reason LED versions are more succeptable to hate is that they are more all in or is there something else i'm not getting here?
also honestly it doesn't seem like dredge hate is needed so much as combo hate is. although mindbreaktrap won't get dredge, but it also won't get high tide, so that would explain alot.
what is the point where people will actually start packing 5+cards for dredge, or is there one? as right now its went two weeks in a row as a competitor, and clearly nobody's packing enough hate.
also if dredge sideboards start as 4 chain of vapor+4 nature's claim, what do you board out for them? breakthrough i assume is that standard one, and obviously it matters depending, but what do you reach for first?
Gavin doesn't know it well either. Most of the announcers are pretty clueless about Dredge honestly.
LED is more susceptible to hate because using LED leaves the pilot with no options. Deep Analysis can only be cast from the yard and the lower land count makes it harder to cast your 1 drop protection which is usually how you protect against hate. You are right that they go all in and this is exactly the reason they are easier to hate.
Dredge hate isn't needed; you're right about that. People do not take combo seriously right now. They need to. Decks like Dredge and Combo are dominating because most players think they can scrape by with minimal answers to such decks.
No one is doing much about Dredge because people think its top 8 positions are just coincidences. They aren't. Dredge will keep taking spots. If people start packing large amounts of graveyard hate, then another deck will take advantage of that as a result of the lack of answers to that strategy. There unfortunately will probably be no middle ground here. Either people will go overboard with hate or they will not pack enough.
Actually, you don't board out 4 of anything really. You usually board out singletons. I find that I am usually boarding out cards based on how strong they are in various match ups. Usually 1-2 Breakthrough, 1 Thug, 1 Careful Study come out and then if I need more slots, I start cutting a Dread Return or an Ichorid depending on which of the two is worse in that match up. You almost always want to replace a Dread Return target with another Dread Return target unless it is match up where Dread Return is not going to be strong. Usually, I don't board in all 4 Chain or Claim, I usually go for 2-3. I have only boarded in 4 Chain when I felt I needed more ways to deal with aggressive creatures that I couldn't handle with Firestorm (Junk). I have boarded in 4 Claim against Enchantress.
The number 4 doesn't represent the standard, it just represents the extreme. If you are forced to go for that many protection pieces, its unfortunate. But you have to be ready just in case.
As the top players in my area say "Dredge is only piloted by new players and terrible pilots.
No need to even devote cards to that match-up."
Yet every time I switch back to playing Dredge I win the events we have. I can't run it all the time with people knowing I am coming they will start packing hate. I switch back and forth between Dredge and The Gate. However none of those guys pack grave hate when going to Vestal for SCG invitationals or SCG events. Most guys think they can get by and just avoid Dredge.
I really liked the Darkslick Shores in Davids deck. Seems great in any dredge deck.
With everyone playing creature heavy decks, combo is poised to control the format until we see an up tick in good control.
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In case I didn't tell you, I don't care about your opinion I just want your facts. And not the facts that make you seem smart. I want the ones that are actual facts.
With everyone playing creature heavy decks, combo is poised to control the format until we see an up tick in good control.
This is good for us since Dredge has a great control match ups. I think unless people heavily devote their board to hate out Dredge, it will continue being able to compete. It's not really dominating events right now, just placing well.
Gavin doesn't know it well either. Most of the announcers are pretty clueless about Dredge honestly.
LED is more susceptible to hate because using LED leaves the pilot with no options. Deep Analysis can only be cast from the yard and the lower land count makes it harder to cast your 1 drop protection which is usually how you protect against hate. You are right that they go all in and this is exactly the reason they are easier to hate.
Dredge hate isn't needed; you're right about that. People do not take combo seriously right now. They need to. Decks like Dredge and Combo are dominating because most players think they can scrape by with minimal answers to such decks.
No one is doing much about Dredge because people think its top 8 positions are just coincidences. They aren't. Dredge will keep taking spots. If people start packing large amounts of graveyard hate, then another deck will take advantage of that as a result of the lack of answers to that strategy. There unfortunately will probably be no middle ground here. Either people will go overboard with hate or they will not pack enough.
Actually, you don't board out 4 of anything really. You usually board out singletons. I find that I am usually boarding out cards based on how strong they are in various match ups. Usually 1-2 Breakthrough, 1 Thug, 1 Careful Study come out and then if I need more slots, I start cutting a Dread Return or an Ichorid depending on which of the two is worse in that match up. You almost always want to replace a Dread Return target with another Dread Return target unless it is match up where Dread Return is not going to be strong. Usually, I don't board in all 4 Chain or Claim, I usually go for 2-3. I have only boarded in 4 Chain when I felt I needed more ways to deal with aggressive creatures that I couldn't handle with Firestorm (Junk). I have boarded in 4 Claim against Enchantress.
The number 4 doesn't represent the standard, it just represents the extreme. If you are forced to go for that many protection pieces, its unfortunate. But you have to be ready just in case.
gavin at least knew more by comparison, but both of them were too busy fangasming over high tide to notice -.-.
2-3 of each chain, and claim, or just 2-3 of one?
is the reason why ancient grudge, and ray feel off the map, because you generally recur them from the graveyard?(and thus it takes comboing out to use them)
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The long answer, Brainstorm was really solid. It allows you to put cards on top of your library, like bridge and ichorid, that can be dredged into your library at the next draw. It protects your powerful draw/discard effects from thoughtseize and unmask. In the mid game (if you have a hand or a mid game, lol) it draws three which is one huge dredge.
I am going to try and streamline this build a bit and I think going to 3 brainstorms may be a good roleplayer for that direction. I liked brainstorm more in sideboarded games when you generally slow roll the dredging and boarding out some number of breakthroughs is correct. It finds null rods, :).
But, it's only a 2-3-of, and you can't argue with results. It also seems quite good post-board as you say, to dig for the stuff you need to be in hand and not in the yard, like Null Rod, Nature's Claim, etc. If only I could play it post-board and not pre-board but not waste a sideboard slot on it...
U G W NO Bant U G W
U G W R B Dredge! U G W R B
B G W Junk B G W
R G W B Aggro Loam R G W B
B W Deadguy B W
W Death & Taxes (almost!) W
G W Green & Taxes G W
B G W Junk & Taxes B G W
Momir Vig
Brion Stoutarm
Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief
Arcum Daggson
Twitter- RogueSource.
Decks: "Name one! I probably got it built In one of these boxes."
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Vintage will rise again! Buy a Mox today!
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[I]Some call it dig through time, when really your digging through CRAP!
Merfolk! showing magic players what a shower is since Lorwyn!
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=519290
TW is also an all in type card like breakthrough. This means after game one it could become a liablity as getting to aggressive with dredging can lead to being blown out by hate.
With my list (14 land), I found it hard to rely on having 2 land in play against wasteland decks. It is also harder to play around daze with a 2 drop. If it resolves... seems disgusting. Especially with a dredger or two in hand.
Winds is a very strong card; with multiple dredgers in hand, you will probably win on the next turn. The problem is that you cannot rely on having that second land.
part of my problem may be that i don't have enough enablers. the deck feels like it works, but every once in awhile i can just tell something is missing.
its possible that because of my dislike for careful study(it just feels like a trap, because it neither allows me to dredge enough cards, nor is it an permanent enabler)
so heres the list i eventually came to. and i'm just curious what you guys would have me change. perhaps its in cutting an ichorid for the fourth tribe, i have no idea. i'm really at a loss right now. the deck can 9/10 go off without a hitch, but every once in awhile you just get...do nothing hands.
3 ichorid
3 bloodghast
4 narcomoeba
card draw(8)
4 breakthrough
4 cephalid coliseum
enablers 10
4 cabal therapy
4 putrid imp
3 tireless tribe
4 golgari grave-troll
4 stinkweed imp
2 golgari thug
1 dakmor salvage
4 Bridge from below
3 dread return
1 flame-kin zelot
2 cephalid sage
4 undiscovered paradise
4 city of brass
2 gemstone mine
i'm just really at a loss as to where to go, maybe i need to just run a stock list and go from there.
any thoughts or comments on the list?
and yes for the record i realize therapy isn't an enabler in the sense that i want it to be, but do agree 4 is the right number.
It's impressive that your own build has come so close to a standard build, but I would probably just start with a standard build and goldfish/play it a number of times, then decide what you like and don't like and alter it from there. There are some standard builds that run both Ich and B'ghast too, if you like to run both, so you could start with one of those.
U G W NO Bant U G W
U G W R B Dredge! U G W R B
B G W Junk B G W
R G W B Aggro Loam R G W B
B W Deadguy B W
W Death & Taxes (almost!) W
G W Green & Taxes G W
B G W Junk & Taxes B G W
Momir Vig
Brion Stoutarm
Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief
Arcum Daggson
the sages function as more card draw if you will, just like the sphinx, except that because i'm running even less card draw than most i added a second one. as well as the important thing seemed to be the draw 3, as 3 was enough to usually go off, where as 2 was not.
also i mispoke, i meant that a built it on my own with the combination of many differant articles and what not. not so much that a built the entire deck on my own.
perhaps go -1 sage, +1 study? as that is the entire problem with the deck. i have too much end combo support, and not enough begining. the 8 draws are pretty good, and generally plenty, and the 6 creatures give me a solid backup creature plan, so i really should use it. but i wouldn't know what that knowledge would lead me to cut.
EDIT: perhaps go -1 salvage, -1 sage, +2 careful study? and then swap the last sage for a sphinx. considering the salvage was the only reason i ran the sages.
perhaps cut a cabal therapy? is that ever appropriate, alot of people do it, but it really seems like dredges best weapon in general, as if they resolve say a moat or something G1 you pretty much just scoop.
also since i'm only running the one sage, i figure i may as well cut it for iona.
since sage seems like just furthering the combo, and iona wins on the spot, against most decks anyway. is angel of despair better than iona though? whats the standard opinion on angel of despair vs iona?
@Watoo24: Angel of Despair is an answer against reanimator (Blazing Archon). Iona is a better option against the rest of the field. My vote goes to Iona.
The week before the event, I was in Dallas visiting my family and decided to go to the SCG open there as well. Day one I performed poorly, eventually dropping to trade the rest of the day. I made so much in trading that I decided to make that and EDH my focus Day two. After I told my local crew about my success, they decided a trip to LA was in order. David Vinson, Sean Cowan, Devan Cooper, and I all hopped in my little Nissan and hit the road. We made good time, getting there at like 2030.
At first, when David told me we were going to be staying in the Ritz, I was super excited. Upon arriving, I learn we are not staying in the elegant Ritz Carlton, but the Ritz Milner, a raggedy cramped hotel that looks like one big fire hazard and whose elevators haven’t been inspected in God knows how long. We ascend the 7 flights of stairs to our little 1-bed closet and drop our stuff off. David goes to playtest with some friends since he planned to play in Day 1, and the rest of us hit up the town.
If you’ve never been to LA, then I suggest you put it on your to-do list. It’s a really great city. There’s a lot to do, and the food is pretty good (although not Portland good). We hit up LA Live, which is the busy center of town, and hang out around the Staples Center and see the sights. We get back at around 2300 and are all pretty tired. David convinces me to help him test for tomorrow, so I grab my janky GB Mimic Vat deck, and show his Boros who’s boss. Note: Obstinate Baloth on a Vat is strong. After a 2-1 victory, we hit the hay, agreeing to wake up at 8 and get there when they open at 9.
I wake up to my alarm at 0758, and realize I’m the only one in the room. I call Devan, and it turns out they all went to the event without me, which is bad cuz I have no idea how to get there. After finding a fellow Magic player who was also staying in our hotel (the Crown Royal dice bag was a dead give-away), I make my way to the LA Convention Center. Upon arriving, I learn the location is also hosting Adultcon 2011,which I decide is a great way to pass the time later if the trading goes weak later that day (unfortunately it doesn’t). After a busy day of trade-ups and an 0-2 drop from David, we head by the Legacy Challenge to see what’s getting slung around. There I see my old friend Tom Ma, where we have this little discussion.
Tom: “You playing tomorrow?”
Me: “Nah, prolly just trading.”
Tom: “You play Dredge, right?”
Me: “Yeah, why?”
Tom: “Play dredge”
This statement was followed by one of those stares. You know, the ones that mean “you’re an idiot if you don’t listen to me.” We go back to the room, and I think about what Tom said. I look at my Dredge deck and think “Why not?”. I think about some sideboard choices before calling it good, and then hit the hay on my sliver of bed while the other three threw down some EDH shenanigans on the rest of it.
We wake up early and head to the sight, and I begin to register my 75. While waiting for the thing to start, we head to the trade tables and catch up with a guy we met the previous day. After about 10 minutes of convincing him Tarmogoyf is better for his GB stompy deck than Wild Mongrel, we’re off to the Player Meeting, where I sit across from my Tom. Pairings go up, and the action finally starts.
Round 1 vs. Hank Zhong (NO and Tell)
Game one my opponent leads off with a Noble Hierarch off of a Savanna as to disguise his deck type, and I begin with a Tireless Tribe. Turn two Hank plays a City of Traitors followed by Show and Tell. I chose Ichorid, and my opponent met me with a Progenitus. He passed, and with the Ichorid trigger on the stack I pitched a Bridge from Below and a dredger, netting a zombie. I dredged and broke a Coliseum, swung at my opponent, made some more zombies, and ended. My opponent swung in for 10 and passed. I brought back 2 Ichorids and cracked back for game. Game 2 I Therapied for Show and Tell, hit one, then flashback hit a NO. It was pretty much over from there.
Sideboard: -4 Breakthrough, +3 Firestorm +1 Cabal Therapy
You want to hit their creatures so they can’t NO and Therapy them for cheat cards. Bring anti-hate if you expect hate, but most players just try to race you. And watch out for SB Blazing Archon.
1-0
Round 2 vs. Derrick Cabrera (UW Tempo)
I lead with a rainbow land and a tribe again. My dredges are pretty weak, might have been with thug. My opponent goes Wasteland, Island Vial, Plains into Mystic for Jitte. I continue to Brick, and Derrick lands a Jotun Grunt. I’m able to stall it a bit and eventually it dies at 4 counters. After that I start to hit gas and take him down
My opponent goes turn 2 wheel of Sun and Moon, and I am forced into the beat with 1/1s plan. Between the pain lands, 1/1 beaters, and my opponent using 4 Swords to Plowshares and 3 FoW, the score gets to like 16-13 in my favor before he drops a Grunt and a Jitte. I Needle the Jitte, and Grunt starts to crack in. Fortunately he can only pay the cost twice before it dies and is replaced by another. I go to 4 and the new Grunt is sacked. It looks like a stalemate before my opponent finally plays a creature in the form of a Morph. It attacks. 2. I pass. It attacks Lethal. My opponent picks his cards up and shuffles for game 3.
Now, for those of you who are unfamiliar with Morph creatures, let me share a little info about how Morphs work. If a card has Morph, you can pay 3 mana to cast it as a face-down as a 2/2. The only thing is, at the end of the game, you must reveal the card to confirm it has Morph, which my opponent failed to do. I noticed this and immediately called a Judge over. I explained what happened, and my opponent couldn’t believe what he had done. He agreed that he had forgotten, and accepted the penalty for the violation, which in this case is a Game Loss. I hate to win a game by a penalty, but in a large tournament you have to understand how your cards work. Derrick was understanding and took it like a like a Magic player should, stating that he learned something from it and will never make that mistake again.
2-0
Sideboard: -4 Breakthrough -4 Careful Study -1 Ichorid, + 2 Pithing Needle +4 Nature’s Claim +1 Cabal Therapy +2 Firestorm
They don’t have many big threats, so kill them off and you can usually just coast. They do have a plethora of hate cards though, so Claim is usually strong. At its worst it can kill equips.
Round 3 vs. Liam Kane (TPS)
Game 1 my opponent won the roll, made 8 goblins turn 2, and killed me in a close battle of tokens. Game 2 I chose not to side, as on the play I felt I could race his deck. I had a turn 2 Breakthrough and 3 Bridges, beat with Ichorid and Tribe, and Dread Returned another Ichorid for 12 Zombies EOT. My opponent had to try to go off and whiffed 3 cards in. Game 3 I brought in Mindbreak and Therapy. My opponent lead with land-go. I played a careful study and pitched dredger and Bridge. My opponent passed back. I Therapied for Infernal Tutor, whiffing, but seeing 3 DRit, a Burning Wish, a Chrome mox, and something else (ponder?). I think a bit, cast Pimp, pitch my hand, and Flashback naming DRit. This way even if he draws a mana source or red card for Mox he still can’t go off due to lack of mana. I get like 7 zombies out next turn. My opponent wishes for a Diminishing Returns and passes. I beat and pass. My opponent EOTs a Brainstorm. He drops a blue Mox and a land and cast Diminishing Returns. We get our seven, and mine has a Mindbreak Trap. Turns out it’s unnecessary, as he can’t get enough mana or storm to kill me.
Sideboard: -4 Breakthrough, +1 Cabal Therapy +3 Mindbreak Trap.
I only sided on the draw. You can usually race them on the play, but some
might not want to chance it.
3-0
Round 4 vs. AJ Sacher (NO Bant)
As someone who has read AJ’s articles, it was pretty intimidating being paired up against him. That being said, AJ was a great opponent, and was a pleasure to play against. Game 1 he opens with a Hierarch, and I have a weak T1 Tribe pitching Thug start. He Zeniths for zero getting an Arbor, and I Therapy him. He brainstorms in response to hide the NO, and I call FoW. During his next turn he NOs a Progenitus, and I am unable to race.
He makes a comment about not being prepared for this match-up post SB, and I give a little grin. A lot of people have a poor mindset about the deck and hope they will avoid it or just outplay the Dredge player. This is a costly mistake, as Dredge in the hands of a seasoned player is as dangerous a weapon as any. The deck tends to get a rep as a beginner Legacy deck due to price and ease of play. While somewhat true, does not make it any less powerful. I hope that after this tournament people will come to see Dredge as a contender, and not just a random “variance”deck.
Game 2 I am able to rip his hand up pretty well, getting an Iona on white while he has 3 STP in hand and Therapying him for GSZ while he has 2 in hand and only 3 land. He sees he has no outs to the flyer and we’re off to game 3. He opens with a Pithing Needle on Tireless Tribe. “Play ye olde 1/1 for one?” he responds. I go “Sure” and plop down a Putrid Imp. It goes at a reasonable pace from there, with him eventually falling to a group of about 11 zombies. The match was close the whole way, and all in all a good experience.
Sideboard: -4 Breaktrough, +3 Firestorm +1 Cabal Therapy.
I woulda brought in more, but he made that comment about not having a SB
plan.
4-0
Round 5 vs. Rick Chong (Fish)
I sat down from my round 5 opponent and easily put him on Folk. You ever just get one of those feelings? Yeah, follow them. Your gut is more right than not. Anyway, he opens with turn 1 Island into Vial and not much else for the rest of the match. I think I saw maybe 5 cards. Not that he was a bad player, as he was 4-0. Just sometimes dude strategies are a bit too slow for this deck. I think I ripped his hand up a bit before getting too far for him to come back. Therapy is pretty good against 4-of decks. Just watch out for Cursecatcher popping Bridges.
Sideboard: -4 Breakthrough -1 Ichorid -3 Careful Study, +1 Cabal Therapy +3 Firestorm +4 Nature’s Claim
Folk likes to bring in artifacts to hate you. And the firestorms are good for roasting lords or drawing out FoW.
5-0
Round 6 vs. Joe Lossett (Cephalid Breakfast)
Yup, that’s right. I played Joe before the semi’s, and it was much more interesting here than on that 10 minute video. See, I have a pretty poor history against Cephalid Breakfast. Back at SCG Dallas 2010 it was my only loss, and I went 5-1-1 to finish 10th. So of course I would face off to it here. Anyways, he starts with a Savannah into Vial, and all I can do is pray. I pray that he’s playing Green and Taxes and somehow went 5-0. I pray that he’s playing some cool new Bant homebrew. I pray that it’s anything but Breakfast. I play tribe and end. He plays Nomad off the vial and Illusionist off a Tundra,
and we’re off to game 2.
Game 2 went pretty rough for him. He mulled a bit, and I got Iona on Black. He gets the combo out, but is forced to concede with no way to win. Game 3 is where it gets interesting. He leads with Nomads. I lay Needle on Nomads. He swings and ends. I Therapy him, name Worldly Tutor, and whiff after seeing some junk, Illusionist, and Qasali Pridemage. I tank for a bit, cast my Tribe, pitch my hand minus 1, and Flashback therapy naming the Pridemage. Now. He gets land and casts Illusionist and passes. I star the beat with 1/1 plan. He drops more land. I turn dudes sideways. He gets to four land eventually. I swing with a narc, 2 thugs, and a zombie, putting him at 3. Doing It! He draws and stares at his card. Then he looks at me. Then back at his card. “Well this is interesting” he says. I say “you got it?” He plays a land and taps out for Karmic Guide. My heart sinks. He gets back Pridemage. I look, he’s tapped out, and has to pass. I peek at my top card. Needle!!! Then this little exchange happens.
Me: “Needle”
Joe: “Daze?”
Me: “Sure, pay 1.”
Joe: “Daze again?”
Me: laugh. “Sure dude, pay 1.”
Joe: “Daze.”
Me: “REALLY?? Triple Daze??!?”
Joe: “yup!”
He proceeds to win next turn. I’m stuck at 5-1 at this point, and have to play it out to try to top 8. Afterwards Joe’s friend comes by and they talk about Dread Returning stuff, and I make a note of it. We go to round 7, and he goes off to sign his piece of paper. Must. Be. Nice.
Sideboard: -4 Breakthrough -1 Ichorid -4 Careful Study, +1 Cabal Therapy +3 Firestorm +3 Needle +2 Mindbreak Trap.
You gotta side big for combo. It makes playing the deck rough, but not siding is auto-lose. Needle Nomads, roast solo pieces, and Mindbreak Drea Returns.
5-1
Round 7 vs. Jason Bulkowski (Dredge)
My opponent is none other than Joe’s friend from last round, and I put him on Breakfast too. Game 1 he doesn’t play a single card, and I beat him turn 3. Game 2 he leads off with Leyline, and I start looking for Claim. The he starts Dredging stuff. I’m like “crap, I sided for the wrong matchup” but it doesn’t matter as I never draw Claim. Game 3 he mulls to 6, thinks a bit, and keeps. I start with a Therapy on Breakthrough (always the right play) and see no land and 2 Breakthroughs mixed with dredgers and Dread Return. He doesn’t draw any land and I take the match.
Sideboard: -4 Breakthrough +1 Careful Study, +1 cabal Therapy, +4 Nature’s Claim.
You can usually hit everything with this, and the game is really complex. You can maybe afford to move a bit more Careful Study out, but not any Ichorids.
6-1
Round 8 vs. Timothy Froehlig (Dredge)
My opponent refuses the draw with him at 7th and me at 5th, so we’re off to play. We sat next to each other a bit, so we knew we were both on Dredge. I lead with tribe, and he plays Careful Study. I Therapy him for Breakthrough, hit, and from there I take the lead with a Cephalid Coliseum and a Careful Study. We side a bit, and begin game 2. He leads a bit strong, and I can’t follow. After game 2 he says “and that’s why this is a skill game”. And I’m like Really douche? So we go to game 2 and he keeps a no-lander. I rip 3 Breakthrough’s from him and beat him like turn 3. Then he makes a comment about him losing cuz the die roll, tells me how I should have played, and I’m off to the Top 8.
7-1
Note on the mirror match and douchebags: So the mirror is a lot more complicated than it seems. Why it’s not impossible for one player to just nut-draw and win, it’s generally an attrition game based off of timely Cabal Therapies and Ichorid triggers. Bridge is a limited resource in the mirror, as all it takes is a Flasback spell or and EOT Ichorid to get rid of them. This, combined with the constant fear of a perfect Dredge into FKZ make the match a complex game of cat-and-also-cat. I have had mirror matches go for an upwards of 35 minutes, and the combat math when figuring how many zombies to swing with it awkward. Keep your game-face on, and play tight. It’s rough. Finally, don’t be a douche. It doesn’t make you any better of a player.
After I hand the match result slip to the Judge, I reach down to grab my bagpack, only to whiff. Someone grabbed it mid-match. Luckily, I still had my deck in my hands, so I was able to play in the following rounds, but minus 2-3k in cards is not cool. Listen to the judges and keep your stuff guarded. Loop it under a chair leg or something. Just don’t let it get away from you, cuz you will not get it back.
After about an hour, we sit down and fill out a fun little survey. Then we got our decks back and split up to duke it out.
Quarterfinals vs. Wil Strickland (NO Elves)
The match can be followed here <http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/21512_Quarterfinals_Frankie_Mach_vs_Wil_Strickland.html> .
There’s not really a lot left to be said. Game 1 was pretty close. I was sure I was done when he NOed, as I had no way of racing Progenitus. Turns out it was stuck in his hand. I luckily I was able to stabilize at 3, and the topdeck land was too good. Wil was a good opponent, and I hope to play him again someday.
Sideboard: -4 Breakthrough -1 Ichorid -3 Careful Study, +1 Cabal Therapy +3 Nature’s Claim +3 Firestorm +1 Needle
Needle for Ezuri or Symbiote. Firestorm to roast dudes. Claim for hate. Pretty basic for a creature deck.
Semifinals vs. Joe Lossett (Cephalid Breakfast)
You can read about it here <http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/21511_Semifinals_Frankie_Mach_vs_Joe_Lossett.html> .
Not much to say. Doube FoW is rough. Also, some people have questioned my Firestorm play game 2, so I will repost my response her:
The "Firestorm play": This is referring to my Firestorming the Pridemage game 2 in the semis. Ok, so I hear people saying that I jumped the gun on this play, and that I should have held the Firestorm for a combo piece as to stifle the combo. The fact is, holding Firestorm would have done nothing. If I had waited, my opponent would have dropped the Nomad first, and I could not touch it or the Illusionist, as Nomads couldn't be killed with Qasali on the battlefield, and he coulda just comboed in response if he landed the illusionist. This led me to the play of Firestorm the Pridemage. Now, Firestorming here does 4 important things. One, it gets rid of the thug in my hand, allowing me to begin my plan of Dredging. Two, it makes my Cephalid Coliseum live next turn, allowing me to possibly win on the spot (one of the cards I would have dredged was a Troll). Three, even if my opponent did have the Macabre, which I knew he played due to previous experience, I would now have the possibility of drawing another Firestorm or a Needle, thus giving me a way to shut down his play. And 4, it would give me the opportunity to cap my opponent with Cephalid Coliseum to deck him out. While it is unsure if my opponent would have just flipped his deck or gone one activation at a time, the play is still relevant, as it could plausibly happen. You have to be aware of all your outs at all times, and play accordingly.
Joe was a great opponent all the way through, and I’m glad that he was the player I had to lose to (both times). Hopefully someone can get something off this report, as I love the deck, and would love to see someone place higher than me with it. I’m just sorry it couldn’t have been a win!
Props: My friends for making the trip with me, Star City Games, good opponents, great judges, that cute female judge.
Slops: The Ritz Milner, bad opponents, thiefs, and the thousands of bugs still stuck to my car.
P.S.: sorry about grammar, hyperlinks, card tags, etc. This was typed on my phone.
Here's my pretty brief report since I didn't take down notes. On Jupiter Games (if you have trouble finding it) I am Timur Babakol playing Tribal Zombies! (they took a pretty good pic of me wearing this shirt: http://shirt.woot.com/friends.aspx?k=17741). First my list:
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
4 Ichorid
3 Golgari Thug
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Narcomoeba
4 Putrid Imp
4 Tireless Tribe
4 Careful Study
3 Breakthrough
4 Bridge from Below
3 Dread Return
3 Cabal Therapy
1 Tarnished Citadel
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
4 Chain of Vapor
4 Nature's Claim
3 Firestorm
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Terastrodon
1 Ancestor's Chosen
1 Blazing Archon
Pretty standard list. I was trying out Blazing Archon since I was unsure how good it is. Otherwise my list is pretty standard. Darkslick Shores went in because I didn't have a second Citadel.
Round 1: Affinity (Tezzeret Build)
Game 1 I had double Coliseum and, despite my opponent dropping his entire hand of 3 Thopters, Drum, Memnite and Myr Enforcer turn 1, I attack with 8 Zombies and FKZ on turn 3, killing him.
Pretty sure I boarded in Archon > Iona and 3 Nature's Claim in this game. Didn't matter much though since I killed him on turn 3 again after he lands Tezzeret. He seemed pretty upset with me about it but honestly he has no interaction with me besides beating face so honestly there's not much he can do about my plan.
Round 2: Black and Taxes/Dead Guy Hybrid
This is actually one of my friends I drove up with. He's pretty new to Legacy and he actually was pretty excited to win against Junk round 1 but knew he didn't have much of a chance against me both because his deck didn't have a good plan (the discard is too weak) and because he had no grave hate. He end up pairing against combo for 4 rounds, which is a little disorienting for people new to legacy.
Game 1 I got greedy and started Dredging really late and just got overwhelmed.
Game 2 and 3 I board in Firestorms and Dredge much better and he gets overwhelmed by Zombies pretty quick.
Round 3: NO Bant (AJ Sacher's deck)
Game 1 my opponent casts multiple Green Sun's Zenith and gets a board of guys but its no good against the Zombie horde.
Game 2 I board in Archon since I figure his only out is Swords (I'm right about this), 2 Chain of Vapor and 3 Firestorm so I can control his board. I do get going with my dredging pretty easily but my opponent puts out a Cold Eyed Selkie with Sword of Fire and Ice with Noble Hierarch. I chump with a Zombie. At this point, my yard is a little weak and I have spent most of my time building up Zombies with Ichorid. I dredge and hit a Dread Return. My opponent has 1 card in hand and I think for a second. I cast Therapy naming Daze. He show Loaming Shaman and I go for Archon with him at 13. 3 Turns later, Archon rides his Lion to victory. In the case he did pull a way out earlier (or a blocker), I had I had Chain of Vapor and Firestorm in hand ready to clean him out.
Round 4: Merfolk
I got too greedy in these games. Very stupid. I started dredging late both games and just let him get board advantage. I should have easily won (I learned my lesson as I beat Fish in the Quarters). A little embarrassed at how greedy I got.
Round 5: Canadian Threshold
My opponent is play the old school Nimble Mongoose plan of Threshold. As soon as I see him drop Mongoose turn 1, I begin the Draw-Pitch plan and build up my army. I protect my spells with a single land once I build up my yard enough and eventually beat him to death with Ichorid.
I board in Archon again and figure naming blue or red will kinda win me the game. Chain of Vapor and Firestorm go in as well so I can fight his beats. Game 2 goes similar to the first and he doesn't have much of a way out even with double Goyf.
Round 6: Junk
My opponent is a little loose with Junk, which definitely helped. I kill him quick game 1 due to his weak draw of discard spells after double mulligan.
I board in Chain of Vapor and Nature's Claim. I thought Firestorm wouldn't be strong enough against Knights and Goyf. Too much pain back at me.
My opponent gets a turn 3 Engineered Plague naming Zombies and then realized he doesn't know for sure if Ichorid is a Zombie (its not) and he suffers for it as he goes to 2. I Dread Return Iona and he is torn to use Knight to get either Karakas or Bojuka Bog. Either way, he's dead since I chipped him down to 2 with Zombies.
Round 7: Team America (Dark Confidant build)
My opponent and I drew here. Looking at the board, I was guaranteed 9th at least if I drew and my opponent was in the top 8 and I didn't care that much about the top 8, I was happy with 9th at that point (first big legacy tournament). We played anyways just for the fun of it.
My opponent got me game 1 with quick beats.
Game 2 and 3 my opponent played sloppy and killed my creatures and gave me many Zombies. Eli was watching and told him he needs to Darkblast his Confidant to exile Bridge. I think the match up wasn't too bad.
So I go and call my girlfriend and talk with some friends from my hometown in Jersey and suddenly I hear "Timur Babakol, please come for deck check." Apparently, the person who had a chance to top 8 lost his match and I get 8th. After deck check, I shuffle up and play the quarters.
Quarter Finals: Merfolk
Game 1 my opponent is on the play and I see Island -> Vial. I immediately go for the Draw-Pitch plan with a lot of gas in my hand. I pretty quickly overwhelm him with just a single Bridge and he can't stop it with all the permission stuck in his hand.
Game 2 I board in Archon, 3 Firestorm and 3 Chain of Vapor taking out Iona, and some 1 mana discard outs and a Thug. My opponent chooses to draw, which hurt me a little since my hand wasn't good enough to mull but had no turn 1 plays. He stick a jitte quickly and double mutavault and I die quick before being able to assemble anything.
Game 3 I go on the draw and he keeps a hand with Vial and double Wasteland, which hurts him as I neglect to play lands. He goes down quick to Ichorid and Zombie beats.
Semi Finals: Junk
Game 1 was epic. I punted for sure but it was a great game. I got greedy and I Dread Returned Iona naming white and figured I was safe. Being stupid, I forgot about Karakas and Bojuka Bog and accidentally pitched all my Dredgers so I was back to square one. My opponent figured he had me at this point and after a turn or two I rip Breakthrough with Stinkweed Imp in my hand. I think for a second and then discard Imp and Breakthrough, dredging 21 cards (you guys can do the math on what I hit) and I was back into the game with double Narcomoeba and my last Bridge. He eventually has to fetch up Maze of Ith to stop my Narcomoeba from killing him (he goes to 2). I draw Cabal Therapy with 3 cards in my library and cast it. He Swords his own Knight to bring him back up to 13 and after Dread Returning a troll, I don't really have enough board position to get back into the game fully with Maze of Ith and his blockers.
Game 2 I board in Terrastrodon over Iona and 3 Chain of Vapor. It was no good since my opponent went Nihil Spellbomb, Qasali Pridgemage and Knight of the Reliquary and I just couldn't get going. My opponent definitely gave me respect for my playing since he didn't leave me any outs (Diabolic Edict on my turn 1 Tribe, Wasted my lands whenever he could so I couldn't make any plays). He didn't leave me a corner, which is both good and bad.
I am fine with 4th since I thought I was gonna scrub out. Made $80 in store credit and I believe I really learned a lot about this deck.
I have made a few realizations about the deck in general which I think I should mention:
1) Ichorid is a house. Alone, it is able to dominate an enormous number of match ups. Bloodghast is fine and it has merits, but the extra power, automatic haste and the built in Zombie generation are all incredibly powerful. The exile cost was never a problem for me.
2) Iona. She didn't perform today. I don't know what to think fully about her. People have spent so much time fighting Emrakul that we see splash damage. I don't think I want to play her anymore. She just doesn't do it anymore. I can win fringe matches with it, but the top decks can answer her and she is much worse in the main.
3) Blazing Archon. This little man and his kitty were phenomenal today. When he came onto the board, if I set up with Therapy, my opponent had no way out usually. I highly recommend trying it since it definitely hurts many match ups.
4) No Ancient Grudge/Ray of Revelation. Nature's Claim and Chain of Vapor are so versatile than I believe I do not need these other two. Many games I am forced to revert to regular draws and I don't mind digging for Chain or Claim.
I think Tempo match ups aren't bad for us. They aren't good necessarily but if you initiate the Draw-Pitch plan, you can completely nullify many of their cards.
I have made a token based on my shirt which I'm gonna use from now on for Zombies:
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/deckshow.php?&start_date=2011-04-03&end_date=2011-04-03&event_ID=20
But for sure, Dredge is coming out as a strong contender in this format. Despite all the haters and people not knowing how dredge works, we are really putting it to work.
I watched David Thomas' match against the second Hatfield and I couldn't tell his exact board position but he might have gotten greedy somewhere. I was surprised he didn't muster up Angel of Despair to blow out lands anywhere in his pile with 10ish cards left. I supposed it happens though.
is the reason LED versions are more succeptable to hate is that they are more all in or is there something else i'm not getting here?
also honestly it doesn't seem like dredge hate is needed so much as combo hate is. although mindbreaktrap won't get dredge, but it also won't get high tide, so that would explain alot.
what is the point where people will actually start packing 5+cards for dredge, or is there one? as right now its went two weeks in a row as a competitor, and clearly nobody's packing enough hate.
also if dredge sideboards start as 4 chain of vapor+4 nature's claim, what do you board out for them? breakthrough i assume is that standard one, and obviously it matters depending, but what do you reach for first?
LED is more susceptible to hate because using LED leaves the pilot with no options. Deep Analysis can only be cast from the yard and the lower land count makes it harder to cast your 1 drop protection which is usually how you protect against hate. You are right that they go all in and this is exactly the reason they are easier to hate.
Dredge hate isn't needed; you're right about that. People do not take combo seriously right now. They need to. Decks like Dredge and Combo are dominating because most players think they can scrape by with minimal answers to such decks.
No one is doing much about Dredge because people think its top 8 positions are just coincidences. They aren't. Dredge will keep taking spots. If people start packing large amounts of graveyard hate, then another deck will take advantage of that as a result of the lack of answers to that strategy. There unfortunately will probably be no middle ground here. Either people will go overboard with hate or they will not pack enough.
Actually, you don't board out 4 of anything really. You usually board out singletons. I find that I am usually boarding out cards based on how strong they are in various match ups. Usually 1-2 Breakthrough, 1 Thug, 1 Careful Study come out and then if I need more slots, I start cutting a Dread Return or an Ichorid depending on which of the two is worse in that match up. You almost always want to replace a Dread Return target with another Dread Return target unless it is match up where Dread Return is not going to be strong. Usually, I don't board in all 4 Chain or Claim, I usually go for 2-3. I have only boarded in 4 Chain when I felt I needed more ways to deal with aggressive creatures that I couldn't handle with Firestorm (Junk). I have boarded in 4 Claim against Enchantress.
The number 4 doesn't represent the standard, it just represents the extreme. If you are forced to go for that many protection pieces, its unfortunate. But you have to be ready just in case.
BGStandard Green AggroGB
UWRGModern Saheeli CobraGRWU
UBRGLegacy StormGRBU
Wizards Certified Rules Advisor
No need to even devote cards to that match-up."
Yet every time I switch back to playing Dredge I win the events we have. I can't run it all the time with people knowing I am coming they will start packing hate. I switch back and forth between Dredge and The Gate. However none of those guys pack grave hate when going to Vestal for SCG invitationals or SCG events. Most guys think they can get by and just avoid Dredge.
I really liked the Darkslick Shores in Davids deck. Seems great in any dredge deck.
With everyone playing creature heavy decks, combo is poised to control the format until we see an up tick in good control.
Cockatrice username: Blackcat77
This is good for us since Dredge has a great control match ups. I think unless people heavily devote their board to hate out Dredge, it will continue being able to compete. It's not really dominating events right now, just placing well.
gavin at least knew more by comparison, but both of them were too busy fangasming over high tide to notice -.-.
2-3 of each chain, and claim, or just 2-3 of one?
is the reason why ancient grudge, and ray feel off the map, because you generally recur them from the graveyard?(and thus it takes comboing out to use them)