It's a clever idea I haven't seen before. Nice names and simple effects too.
How would you rewrite this portion of the CR to accommodate this mechanic?
708.2. In every zone except the stack, split cards have two sets of characteristics and two converted mana costs. As long as a split card is a spell on the stack, only the characteristics of the half being cast exist. The other half’s characteristics are treated as though they didn’t exist.
708.2a If a player casts a split card, that player chooses which half of that split card he or she is casting before putting it onto the stack. Only the half that is being cast is considered to be put onto the stack.
You can't announce whether you're paying additional or alternate costs until the spell is already on the stack, and you can't pay a cost equal to a nonexistent characteristic.
I suppose you could modify 708.2a to "which half of that split card, or both" - but you're not casting both halves with mirror image, you're casting (either) one and copying the other. "Both" also has functional differences when you throw cards like Chill into the mix.
You can't announce whether you're paying additional or alternate costs until the spell is already on the stack, and you can't pay a cost equal to a nonexistent characteristic.
See Replicate. Replicate, as a keyword, gives you the option of paying extra as you cast the spell. The extra amount that Replicate allows you to pay is defined by the card's Replicate cost.
With Mirror Image, it's the same, except that the amount is defined by the opposite half's mana cost, and you can only pay it once. No rewriting of the rules would be required, because the keyword itself grants you the option to pay the extra amount while the card is still being cast, as does Replicate.
You need to be explicit about which half you are actually casting, and which half is the copy. Usually this won't matter, but then, Remand.
708.2. In every zone except the stack, split cards have two sets of characteristics and two converted mana costs. As long as a split card is a spell on the stack, only the characteristics of the half being cast exist. The other half’s characteristics are treated as though they didn’t exist.
708.2a If a player casts a split card, that player chooses which half of that split card he or she is casting before putting it onto the stack. Only the half that is being cast is considered to be put onto the stack.
As I've already said: how do you pay a cost that is defined by something that doesn't exist?
While a replicate card is on the stack, it has the replicate ability which defines the additional cost. While a mirror image card is on the stack, it has the mirror image ability, which does not in itself define the mana cost of the nonexistent half, much less what abilities it has.
To break it down:
I announce Shattering Spree
I put it on the stack
I announce I'm replicating it 3 times
I choose a target for the original
I pay R for the mana cost and RRR for the additional cost (defined by replicate)
Shattering Spree is cast
Replicate triggers and goes on the stack
I announce Ruinous Peril // Perilous Ruin
I put Ruinous Peril (and not Perilous Ruin) on the stack
I announce I'm mirror imaging it
I choose a target for the original
I pay 1R for the mana cost and ??? for the additional cost (defined by nothing)
Ruinous Peril is cast
Mirror image triggers and goes on the stack
Just wanted to point out that, since the 21 cards we got yesterday, I'm way more excited to see what you "spoil" for this set than for New Phyrexia spoilers. The things you're coming up with are immensely cooler than "Phyrexian mana."
As I've already said: how do you pay a cost that is defined by something that doesn't exist?
While a replicate card is on the stack, it has the replicate ability which defines the additional cost.
You misunderstand Replicate.
A spell does not "gain" Replicate upon it being cast and moving to the stack. It has Replicate in every zone. Replicate grants a card's controller the ability to pay a different cost for the spell when he or she casts it. To quote from the comprehensive rules (702.53a):
Quote from comprules »
"Replicate [cost]" means "As an additional cost to cast this spell, you may pay [cost] any number of times" and "When you cast this spell, if a replicate cost was paid for it, copy it for each time its replicate cost was paid. If the spell has any targets, you may choose new targets for any of the copies." Paying a spell's replicate cost follows the rules for paying additional costs in rules 601.2b and 601.2e-g.
Likewise, Mirror Image grants you the ability to cast the spell for an additional cost. That additional cost is equal to the mana cost of the opposite half of the spell with Mirror Image, and you can only pay that additional cost once. If you do pay it, then you Isochron Scepter-ize the other half of the spell.
Now, I'll admit that these nuances are not all captured by the reminder text that I provided. But, neither were all of Replicate's nuances captured on the reminder text in Guildpact. And, my reminder text pretty much captures all the same critical ideas that the Replicate reminder text captures (I copied it word for word to the extent that I could). I think that both reminder texts do a fair enough version of communicating the function of the mechanic. Like most keywords in Magic, however, you need to read up on how they work if you're going to play them competitively.
A spell does not "gain" Replicate upon it being cast and moving to the stack. It has Replicate in every zone.
When did I say otherwise?
Likewise, Mirror Image grants you the ability to cast the spell for an additional cost. That additional cost is equal to the mana cost of the opposite half of the spell with Mirror Image
Which it has in almost every zone, but not on the stack. Unless you're saying that each card's individual mirror image ability somehow has the inherent ability to look at the card and ask "what's the mana cost of the nonexistent half that I'm not casting at the moment?"
In that case, gumOnShoe's wording works with the rules and is a lot clearer (like writing out the cost on cards with echo, it also lets you use non-mana mirror image costs, though flavorwise you probably don't want to deviate here).
EDIT:
Now, I'll admit that these nuances are not all captured by the reminder text that I provided. But, neither were all of Replicate's nuances captured on the reminder text in Guildpact. And, my reminder text pretty much captures all the same critical ideas that the Replicate reminder text captures (I copied it word for word to the extent that I could). I think that both reminder texts do a fair enough version of communicating the function of the mechanic.
Then why don't you write up a Comp. Rules entry for this mechanic, so we can clear up this misunderstanding?
It's a clever idea I haven't seen before. Nice names and simple effects too.
Really? Hasn't everyone thought about this at some point? This is how my play group used split cards when I was first starting circa Odyssey block. As a player played a split card he could choose to play either one or both sides of the card. If the player played both sides, then he chose which order they were played/resolved, since different orders sometimes have different effects.
Unless you're saying that each card's individual mirror image ability somehow has the inherent ability to look at the card and ask "what's the mana cost of the nonexistent half that I'm not casting at the moment?"
OK, I see the point that you're making. It's a pretty esoteric point, but I suppose it's one that needs to be answered.
Every Mirror Image ability has a set of "remembered" characteristics that are equal to the opposite half's name, color, mana cost, types, and text (forgive me if I missed anything). A spell with Mirror Image remembers the characteristics of its other half after the spell has been placed on the stack. After you put a spell with Mirror Image on the stack, but before it is considered "cast", you may pay an additional cost that is equal to the mana cost of the other, "remembered" half. If you do, then, when the spell with Mirror Image becomes cast, you put a copy of the "remembered" half onto the stack and choose your targets for it.
That said, I find the idea of writing out any/all of the characteristics of the "remembered" spell within the Mirror Image ability to be preposterous. It's reminder text. The card probably has the world's most straightforward reminder - you can just look at the split half next to it to find the "remembered" characteristics. Unlike within the comprehensive rules, in the real world, one half of the card does not just vanish from thin air. It ceases to be a game object in any way, but your eyes can still look over and find the references you need.
[EDIT]: As for the comp. rules update, I think this is going to have to serve, for now. Not enough hours in the day. If you can think of anything else that I need, go ahead and point it out.
@Silvercut: I'm not claiming that I came up with the idea of casting both halves! I just wanted to develop a keyword that made it actually work.
Maybe:
A split card with mirror image defines the cost of its mirror image ability right after announcement, before being placed on the stack.
Except worded more eloquently.
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L-1 Judge
It's kind of another moment when we throw our hands up and go "DAMMIT universe, why you gotta always make me look bad in front of everyone?".
I'm a little confused as to how this ability is worded. When I read the first example, for instance, I assumed that I could pay UR to get both effects, since UR covers the mana costs for both spells. It wasn't until I got to the final example that it made sense.
I'm kind of disappointed now. These seem a tad overcosted to me. For example, I wouldn't want to pay 2UR for +4/+0 & -4/-0, but that might be example specific.
I think you should write out the cost for this ability. For one, it's a lot cleaner on the rules side. Also, look at Replicate. All of the Replicate costs were the same as their respective card's mana cost, but they were still written out. Not only is it easier to understand, but it also helps if you want to pull an Echo later on and change the cost.
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"In the beginning, MTG Salvation switched to a new forum format.
This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move."
It was at that moment that I realized: I'm kinda just making these things up. We can just write the rules the way we want them to work. People will have fun, and people will get it.
Strictly speaking, a "spell" doesn't have halves. Split cards have halves. But, since when you put it on the stack, one half is treated as though it doesn't exist, it's just the one half. Even the card itself has no knowledge of the half that wasn't cast while it's on the stack. You can't copy something that doesn't exist, it'd be like trying to Clone a creature that was phased out. It just doesn't work.
It would work even less if say, you cast it off an Isochron Scepter because then it's only one half of the card in the first place. The copy only knew about the half it's copying, so there would never be a second half for Mirror Image to copy.
You have to change the rules on split cards, as this version doesn't work either.
Well no, strictly speaking, reminder text is utterly meaningless. Reminder text can talk about "the other half" of split cards, lands burning, and all manner of nonsence. The reminder text is to tell Casey Casual what the card does, and the mirror image reminder text does that. The actual details of how it works can be hidden deep in the comp rules.
You have to change the rules on split cards, as this version doesn't work either.
I don't. It's not just that I don't feel like it and don't want to; it's that doing so serves no purpose except to promote confusion.
It works.
You guys are all obsessing over preposterous dysfunctions that just don't exist.
THE KEYWORD GRANTS THE SPELL THE ABILITY TO DO THIS. This is exactly the same as half the keywords in the game of Magic. It's like arguing that you can't cast a flashback card from your graveyard because you can technically only cast spells from your hand.
No rules need to be changed to accommodate it. Nor do I have to write out entire sections of the comp rules to include in the universe's longest proposed reminder text.
Honestly, I'm starting to think that adding the mirror image costs only creates more problems. I will probably change it back to the original wording, which made more sense.
Sorry to yell. This is just an utterly silly discussion.
I don't. It's not just that I don't feel like it and don't want to; it's that doing so serves no purpose except to promote confusion.
It works.
You guys are all obsessing over preposterous dysfunctions that just don't exist.
THE KEYWORD GRANTS THE SPELL THE ABILITY TO DO THIS. This is exactly the same as half the keywords in the game of Magic. It's like arguing that you can't cast a flashback card from your graveyard because you can technically only cast spells from your hand.
No rules need to be changed to accommodate it. Nor do I have to write out entire sections of the comp rules to include in the universe's longest proposed reminder text.Even when you add a cost to the mirror image ability,
Honestly, I'm starting to think that adding the mirror image costs only creates more problems. I will probably change it back to the original wording, which made more sense.
Sorry to yell. This is just an utterly silly discussion.
@person3412: Thank you. Sincerely.
Stop ignoring the problems that have been pointed out in the mechanic. You've already been shown the comprehensive rules entries relevant to this discussion, and they clearly state that the other half of a split card is treated as if it doesn't exist while on the stack. Since the first step of casting a spell is to move it to the stack, there is no mana cost to pay, making the card uncastable. Even when you add a cost to the mirror image ability, the second half has no copyable values, so even if it were possible to make a copy of it at that point, it would be a blank card.
The only ways that i can possibly think of to implement this without changing existing rules is Solmancer's X and/or Y mana costs combined with "if you paid X..." and "if you paid Y..." but that's godawful ugly. Or as an ability word that just copies the other spell's effects to the first like "Mirror Image -- When you cast ~, you may pay 1R. If you do, up to one target creature gets +4/+0 until end of turn." which has entirely too much text for a split card.
I can see we've entered the point in the discussion where logic, reason, and the rules of Magic fail to apply, and also where nobody reads anything that I write. I've also condensed and re-phrased my statements about as many times as I possibly can, so I don't think this is going to be effective:
1. Mirror image allows you to pay an alternate cost while the spell is being cast. This is exactly like replicate, kicker, etc.
2. Mirror image grants a spell the memory of its other half's characteristics, including mana cost, color, type, text, etc. so that it remembers those characteristics after that other half ceases to exist. If it helps your understanding, you can treat each mirror image spell as though it contained the DNA of its other half, which is then grown into a full spell if you paid the mirror image cost. This is not changing the rules, this is me defining what the keyword does.
3. When the spell is cast, if you paid the alternate cost, then the mirror image ability creates a copy of the remembered spell. This is exactly like replicate, except that only one copy is created, and because it is a copy of a spell that had no targets in the first place (like Isochron Scepter) you get to choose the target(s) for it.
I would say that people are suggesting that there are problems with point #2, but that's not true, people are just pretending that I haven't said it. Anyway, I've reached the limits of my endurance shouting into the dark like this. So, continue the argument if you like, but I probably will be stepping away from it at this point. Best wishes.
Stop ignoring the problems that have been pointed out in the mechanic. You've already been shown the comprehensive rules entries relevant to this discussion, and they clearly state that the other half of a split card is treated as if it doesn't exist while on the stack.
[sarcasm]The same way that a face down permanent has no abilities and thus has no morph cost that can be paid to turn it face up. ... Oh wait the rules allow exceptions for weird stuff like that to happen.[/sarcasm]
I think my novel idea of splitting the reminder text is still good, but I change it slightly to fit with other abilities like storm and conspire that trigger when cast and create a copy so that it is easier to understand what would happen with something like Remand.
Shearing Blast1U // Instant (U)
Synchronize (When you cast this card, you may copy the other half…)
Target creature gets -4/-0 until end of turn.
// Blasting Shear1R Instant (U)
Synchronize (…and you may cast the copy by paying its costs.)
Target creature gets +4/+0 until end of turn.
This ability "When you cast this card" would only trigger when you cast the actual card but not a copy of the spell. A side effect of this is that it would not trigger with Isochron Scepter.
THE KEYWORD GRANTS THE SPELL THE ABILITY TO DO THIS. This is exactly the same as half the keywords in the game of Magic. It's like arguing that you can't cast a flashback card from your graveyard because you can technically only cast spells from your hand.
You are aware that keywords are limited by existing rules? That's why among other things flash on a land doesn't let you play the land on your opponents' turns.
There is a CCR section where you can have the rules checked. I personally think it will be possible for reasons stated once all possibilities have been explored; though not everything said in favor of the keyword in this thread appears to be kosher. Too much flinging around of opinions and not enough doing unbiased research.
for the sake of your set you can pretend it works and let the CCR do its magic while checking back later.
Honestly, I'm starting to think that adding the mirror image costs only creates more problems. I will probably change it back to the original wording, which made more sense.
You should add "in addition" though to clear up the confusion mentioned previously.
Whatever the rules are going to be - the reminder text doesn't seem to need to be tuched from it (maybe changed from triggered to static, but that can be exchanging one word).
[sarcasm]The same way that a face down permanent has no abilities and thus has no morph cost that can be paid to turn it face up. ... Oh wait the rules allow exceptions for weird stuff like that to happen.[/sarcasm]
But according to the current rules manager the morph keyword sees only its own morph cost (despite a lack of evidence by the comp. rules as far as I am concerned). Clearly either he is wrong or their is more to the problem than you cover here.
also "When you cast this from your hand" or "if this isn't a copy" are the ways to go, if even necessary in the end if I understand correctly what you are aiming for.
---
My favourite version of this kind of card created a new template that allowed to circumvent all mentioned problems neatly, but then again it had aims beyond making this mechanic work.
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Part 2 - THE DESIGN
I like the idea of the mirrors in general, but I also have to wonder how prevalent this mechanic is going to be. A "square cycle" of nine cards probably is going to be fine for a custom set (if you can come up with enough intriguing designs that is ^^).
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Planar Chaos was not a mistake neither was it random. You might want to look at it again.
[thread=239793][Game] Level Up - Creature[/thread]
To put it bluntly, yes it's possible, and no it's not pretty. But since you insist on seeing it, here's the comp rules entry that would work.
First, a slight modification to 708.2a. Note that the half you choose gains hidden mirror image before it goes onto the stack. In essence, the ordering is
a) Announce you are casting a spell
b) Announce which half you are casting
c) The half that you choose gains hidden mirror image.
d) The spell, with hidden mirror image, moves to the stack. At this point, the other half is treated like it doesn't exist, but a copy of it is still 'saved' inside hidden mirror image.
708.2a If a player casts a split card, that player chooses which half of that split card he or she is casting before putting it onto the stack. If the split card has “Mirror Image [cost]”, the half that you choose gains “Hidden Mirror Image [cost] [other half]”, where [other half] is a copy of the half of the split card that was not chosen. Only the half that is being cast is considered to be put onto the stack.
The rest is almost word-for-word off of Conspire. You get the choice to pay the additional cost. If you do, instead of copying itself, you copy [other half], where [other half] is conveniently the part of the spell you didn't choose.
702.99a Mirror Image is an ability that appears on split cards. “Mirror Image [cost]” means “When you choose which half of this split card you are casting, the half you choose gains ‘Hidden Mirror Image [cost] [other half], where [other half] is a copy of the half of this split card that you did not choose.”
702.99b Hidden Mirror Image is a keyword that represents two abilities. The first is a static ability that functions while the spell with hidden mirror image is on the stack. The second is a triggered ability that functions while the spell with conspire is on the stack. "Hidden Mirror Image [cost] [other half]" means "As an additional cost to cast this spell, you may pay [cost]" and "When you cast this spell, if its hidden mirror image cost was paid, copy [other half]. If the spell has any targets, you may choose new targets for the copy." Paying a spell's hidden mirror image cost follows the rules for paying additional costs in rules 601.2b and 601.2e-g.
Like we've all said, it's ugly but entirely doable. If you wanted, you could with minimal adjustment have it automatically have [cost] be the cost of the other half
You are aware that keywords are limited by existing rules?
You literally - and I mean this in a nice and non-attacking way - need to go back to Comp Rules 101. I'm not kidding. Section 101.1, aka "The Golden Rule" of Magic:
"101.1. Whenever a card's text directly contradicts these rules, the card takes precedence. The card overrides only the rule that applies to that specific situation."
You might think I'm being flippant by bringing this up, but I'm really not. The Golden Rule allows Doran to assign combat damage equal to his toughness, when the rules say power. The Golden Rule keeps you from casting Haakon from your hand even though the rules say that you can. And, in this case, The Golden Rule says that one half of the split card with mirror image remembers the copiable values of its other half, even after that other half ceases to exist, even though spells don't normally do this.
Again, this is not a divide-by-zero or null-value issue. I want to give Jenesis credit for steering it away from that. This ability does not go onto the stack completely ignorant, and then ask "What was my other half, again?" The mirror image ability means that it always knows the copiable values of its other half, even after the other half goes *poof*. That. Is. What. It. Does.
I like the idea of the mirrors in general, but I also have to wonder how prevalent this mechanic is going to be. A "square cycle" of nine cards probably is going to be fine for a custom set (if you can come up with enough intriguing designs that is ^^).
I was actually only planning on doing one common cycle per set. Across a 10-set block, that's a lot of cards. Do you feel cheated by only getting three cards with mirror image in each set? I was thinking about doing a "color-pair // color-pair" rare cycle like Odds//Ends and friends. That would mean six mirror image cards per set and 60 in the block.
What say you?
Also, SecretInfiltrator, THANK YOU for the constructive response. I appreciate that you're reading both sides of the issue and trying to work out a solution.
Instant [COM]
Target creature gets -4/-0 until end of turn.
Mirror Image (When you cast this spell, copy its other half if you paid that half’s mana cost.)
Instant [COM]
Target creature gets +4/+0 until end of turn.
Mirror Image (When you cast this spell, copy its other half if you paid that half’s mana cost.)
Instant [COM]
Destroy target artifact creature.
Mirror Image (When you cast this spell, copy its other half if you paid that half’s mana cost.)
Instant [COM]
Destroy target noncreature artifact.
Mirror Image (When you cast this spell, copy its other half if you paid that half’s mana cost.)
Instant [COM]
Untap target artifact, creature, or land.
Mirror Image (When you cast this spell, copy its other half if you paid that half’s mana cost.)
Instant [COM]
Tap target artifact, creature, or land.
Mirror Image (When you cast this spell, copy its other half if you paid that half’s mana cost.)
How would you rewrite this portion of the CR to accommodate this mechanic?
708.2. In every zone except the stack, split cards have two sets of characteristics and two converted mana costs. As long as a split card is a spell on the stack, only the characteristics of the half being cast exist. The other half’s characteristics are treated as though they didn’t exist.
708.2a If a player casts a split card, that player chooses which half of that split card he or she is casting before putting it onto the stack. Only the half that is being cast is considered to be put onto the stack.
You can't announce whether you're paying additional or alternate costs until the spell is already on the stack, and you can't pay a cost equal to a nonexistent characteristic.
I suppose you could modify 708.2a to "which half of that split card, or both" - but you're not casting both halves with mirror image, you're casting (either) one and copying the other. "Both" also has functional differences when you throw cards like Chill into the mix.
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I really like the "inverted" names and effects. That does a lot to drive home the concept.
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See Replicate. Replicate, as a keyword, gives you the option of paying extra as you cast the spell. The extra amount that Replicate allows you to pay is defined by the card's Replicate cost.
With Mirror Image, it's the same, except that the amount is defined by the opposite half's mana cost, and you can only pay it once. No rewriting of the rules would be required, because the keyword itself grants you the option to pay the extra amount while the card is still being cast, as does Replicate.
You need to be explicit about which half you are actually casting, and which half is the copy. Usually this won't matter, but then, Remand.
Glad that you guys like it!
As I've already said: how do you pay a cost that is defined by something that doesn't exist?
While a replicate card is on the stack, it has the replicate ability which defines the additional cost. While a mirror image card is on the stack, it has the mirror image ability, which does not in itself define the mana cost of the nonexistent half, much less what abilities it has.
To break it down:
I announce Shattering Spree
I put it on the stack
I announce I'm replicating it 3 times
I choose a target for the original
I pay R for the mana cost and RRR for the additional cost (defined by replicate)
Shattering Spree is cast
Replicate triggers and goes on the stack
I announce Ruinous Peril // Perilous Ruin
I put Ruinous Peril (and not Perilous Ruin) on the stack
I announce I'm mirror imaging it
I choose a target for the original
I pay 1R for the mana cost and ??? for the additional cost (defined by nothing)
Ruinous Peril is cast
Mirror image triggers and goes on the stack
This is the part that conflicts with 708.2.
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You misunderstand Replicate.
A spell does not "gain" Replicate upon it being cast and moving to the stack. It has Replicate in every zone. Replicate grants a card's controller the ability to pay a different cost for the spell when he or she casts it. To quote from the comprehensive rules (702.53a):
Likewise, Mirror Image grants you the ability to cast the spell for an additional cost. That additional cost is equal to the mana cost of the opposite half of the spell with Mirror Image, and you can only pay that additional cost once. If you do pay it, then you Isochron Scepter-ize the other half of the spell.
Now, I'll admit that these nuances are not all captured by the reminder text that I provided. But, neither were all of Replicate's nuances captured on the reminder text in Guildpact. And, my reminder text pretty much captures all the same critical ideas that the Replicate reminder text captures (I copied it word for word to the extent that I could). I think that both reminder texts do a fair enough version of communicating the function of the mechanic. Like most keywords in Magic, however, you need to read up on how they work if you're going to play them competitively.
When did I say otherwise?
Which it has in almost every zone, but not on the stack. Unless you're saying that each card's individual mirror image ability somehow has the inherent ability to look at the card and ask "what's the mana cost of the nonexistent half that I'm not casting at the moment?"
In that case, gumOnShoe's wording works with the rules and is a lot clearer (like writing out the cost on cards with echo, it also lets you use non-mana mirror image costs, though flavorwise you probably don't want to deviate here).
EDIT:
Then why don't you write up a Comp. Rules entry for this mechanic, so we can clear up this misunderstanding?
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Really? Hasn't everyone thought about this at some point? This is how my play group used split cards when I was first starting circa Odyssey block. As a player played a split card he could choose to play either one or both sides of the card. If the player played both sides, then he chose which order they were played/resolved, since different orders sometimes have different effects.
OK, I see the point that you're making. It's a pretty esoteric point, but I suppose it's one that needs to be answered.
Every Mirror Image ability has a set of "remembered" characteristics that are equal to the opposite half's name, color, mana cost, types, and text (forgive me if I missed anything). A spell with Mirror Image remembers the characteristics of its other half after the spell has been placed on the stack. After you put a spell with Mirror Image on the stack, but before it is considered "cast", you may pay an additional cost that is equal to the mana cost of the other, "remembered" half. If you do, then, when the spell with Mirror Image becomes cast, you put a copy of the "remembered" half onto the stack and choose your targets for it.
That said, I find the idea of writing out any/all of the characteristics of the "remembered" spell within the Mirror Image ability to be preposterous. It's reminder text. The card probably has the world's most straightforward reminder - you can just look at the split half next to it to find the "remembered" characteristics. Unlike within the comprehensive rules, in the real world, one half of the card does not just vanish from thin air. It ceases to be a game object in any way, but your eyes can still look over and find the references you need.
[EDIT]: As for the comp. rules update, I think this is going to have to serve, for now. Not enough hours in the day. If you can think of anything else that I need, go ahead and point it out.
@Silvercut: I'm not claiming that I came up with the idea of casting both halves! I just wanted to develop a keyword that made it actually work.
Just use the Magic Wand of Changing the Rules (tm). * waves wand *
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A split card with mirror image defines the cost of its mirror image ability right after announcement, before being placed on the stack.
Except worded more eloquently.
I'm gonna have to get me one of those.
Seriously, though, no wand waving needed.
I'm kind of disappointed now. These seem a tad overcosted to me. For example, I wouldn't want to pay 2UR for +4/+0 & -4/-0, but that might be example specific.
I think you should write out the cost for this ability. For one, it's a lot cleaner on the rules side. Also, look at Replicate. All of the Replicate costs were the same as their respective card's mana cost, but they were still written out. Not only is it easier to understand, but it also helps if you want to pull an Echo later on and change the cost.
This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move."
Comic Book Set
Archester: Frontier of Steam (A steampunk set!)
A Good Place to Start Designing
Instant [COM]
Target creature gets -4/-0 until end of turn.
Mirror Image 1R (When you cast this spell, copy its other half if you paid the mirror image cost.)
Instant [COM]
Target creature gets +4/+0 until end of turn.
Mirror Image 1U (When you cast this spell, copy its other half if you paid the mirror image cost.)
Instant [COM]
Destroy target artifact creature.
Mirror Image 1G (When you cast this spell, copy its other half if you paid the mirror image cost.)
Instant [COM]
Destroy target noncreature artifact.
Mirror Image 1R (When you cast this spell, copy its other half if you paid the mirror image cost.)
Instant [COM]
Untap target artifact, creature, or land.
Mirror Image U (When you cast this spell, copy its other half if you paid the mirror image cost.)
Instant [COM]
Tap target artifact, creature, or land.
Mirror Image G (When you cast this spell, copy its other half if you paid the mirror image cost.)
It would work even less if say, you cast it off an Isochron Scepter because then it's only one half of the card in the first place. The copy only knew about the half it's copying, so there would never be a second half for Mirror Image to copy.
You have to change the rules on split cards, as this version doesn't work either.
I don't. It's not just that I don't feel like it and don't want to; it's that doing so serves no purpose except to promote confusion.
It works.
You guys are all obsessing over preposterous dysfunctions that just don't exist.
THE KEYWORD GRANTS THE SPELL THE ABILITY TO DO THIS. This is exactly the same as half the keywords in the game of Magic. It's like arguing that you can't cast a flashback card from your graveyard because you can technically only cast spells from your hand.
No rules need to be changed to accommodate it. Nor do I have to write out entire sections of the comp rules to include in the universe's longest proposed reminder text.
Honestly, I'm starting to think that adding the mirror image costs only creates more problems. I will probably change it back to the original wording, which made more sense.
Sorry to yell. This is just an utterly silly discussion.
@person3412: Thank you. Sincerely.
Symmetry (When you cast this, you may cast its other half.)
Not using "without paying its mana cost" means you still have to play it for its cost.
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The only ways that i can possibly think of to implement this without changing existing rules is Solmancer's X and/or Y mana costs combined with "if you paid X..." and "if you paid Y..." but that's godawful ugly. Or as an ability word that just copies the other spell's effects to the first like "Mirror Image -- When you cast ~, you may pay 1R. If you do, up to one target creature gets +4/+0 until end of turn." which has entirely too much text for a split card.
Seriously. Completely unworkable.
That's a trigger. When it resolves (and when it triggers, for that matter), the other half is being treated as though it didn't exist.
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1. Mirror image allows you to pay an alternate cost while the spell is being cast. This is exactly like replicate, kicker, etc.
2. Mirror image grants a spell the memory of its other half's characteristics, including mana cost, color, type, text, etc. so that it remembers those characteristics after that other half ceases to exist. If it helps your understanding, you can treat each mirror image spell as though it contained the DNA of its other half, which is then grown into a full spell if you paid the mirror image cost. This is not changing the rules, this is me defining what the keyword does.
3. When the spell is cast, if you paid the alternate cost, then the mirror image ability creates a copy of the remembered spell. This is exactly like replicate, except that only one copy is created, and because it is a copy of a spell that had no targets in the first place (like Isochron Scepter) you get to choose the target(s) for it.
I would say that people are suggesting that there are problems with point #2, but that's not true, people are just pretending that I haven't said it. Anyway, I've reached the limits of my endurance shouting into the dark like this. So, continue the argument if you like, but I probably will be stepping away from it at this point. Best wishes.
[sarcasm]The same way that a face down permanent has no abilities and thus has no morph cost that can be paid to turn it face up. ... Oh wait the rules allow exceptions for weird stuff like that to happen.[/sarcasm]
I tracked down where this keyword came up before: Entwine on a Split Card.
I think my novel idea of splitting the reminder text is still good, but I change it slightly to fit with other abilities like storm and conspire that trigger when cast and create a copy so that it is easier to understand what would happen with something like Remand.
Instant (U)
Synchronize (When you cast this card, you may copy the other half…)
Target creature gets -4/-0 until end of turn.
Instant (U)
Synchronize (…and you may cast the copy by paying its costs.)
Target creature gets +4/+0 until end of turn.
This ability "When you cast this card" would only trigger when you cast the actual card but not a copy of the spell. A side effect of this is that it would not trigger with Isochron Scepter.
You are aware that keywords are limited by existing rules? That's why among other things flash on a land doesn't let you play the land on your opponents' turns.
There is a CCR section where you can have the rules checked. I personally think it will be possible for reasons stated once all possibilities have been explored; though not everything said in favor of the keyword in this thread appears to be kosher. Too much flinging around of opinions and not enough doing unbiased research.
for the sake of your set you can pretend it works and let the CCR do its magic while checking back later.
You should add "in addition" though to clear up the confusion mentioned previously.
Whatever the rules are going to be - the reminder text doesn't seem to need to be tuched from it (maybe changed from triggered to static, but that can be exchanging one word).
But according to the current rules manager the morph keyword sees only its own morph cost (despite a lack of evidence by the comp. rules as far as I am concerned). Clearly either he is wrong or their is more to the problem than you cover here.
also "When you cast this from your hand" or "if this isn't a copy" are the ways to go, if even necessary in the end if I understand correctly what you are aiming for.
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My favourite version of this kind of card created a new template that allowed to circumvent all mentioned problems neatly, but then again it had aims beyond making this mechanic work.
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Part 2 - THE DESIGN
I like the idea of the mirrors in general, but I also have to wonder how prevalent this mechanic is going to be. A "square cycle" of nine cards probably is going to be fine for a custom set (if you can come up with enough intriguing designs that is ^^).
Finally a good white villain quote: "So, do I ever re-evaluate my life choices? Never, because I know what I'm doing is a righteous cause."
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First, a slight modification to 708.2a. Note that the half you choose gains hidden mirror image before it goes onto the stack. In essence, the ordering is
a) Announce you are casting a spell
b) Announce which half you are casting
c) The half that you choose gains hidden mirror image.
d) The spell, with hidden mirror image, moves to the stack. At this point, the other half is treated like it doesn't exist, but a copy of it is still 'saved' inside hidden mirror image.
708.2a If a player casts a split card, that player chooses which half of that split card he or she is casting before putting it onto the stack.
If the split card has “Mirror Image [cost]”, the half that you choose gains “Hidden Mirror Image [cost] [other half]”, where [other half] is a copy of the half of the split card that was not chosen. Only the half that is being cast is considered to be put onto the stack.
The rest is almost word-for-word off of Conspire. You get the choice to pay the additional cost. If you do, instead of copying itself, you copy [other half], where [other half] is conveniently the part of the spell you didn't choose.
702.99a Mirror Image is an ability that appears on split cards. “Mirror Image [cost]” means “When you choose which half of this split card you are casting, the half you choose gains ‘Hidden Mirror Image [cost] [other half], where [other half] is a copy of the half of this split card that you did not choose.”
702.99b Hidden Mirror Image is a keyword that represents two abilities. The first is a static ability that functions while the spell with hidden mirror image is on the stack. The second is a triggered ability that functions while the spell with conspire is on the stack. "Hidden Mirror Image [cost] [other half]" means "As an additional cost to cast this spell, you may pay [cost]" and "When you cast this spell, if its hidden mirror image cost was paid, copy [other half]. If the spell has any targets, you may choose new targets for the copy." Paying a spell's hidden mirror image cost follows the rules for paying additional costs in rules 601.2b and 601.2e-g.
Like we've all said, it's ugly but entirely doable. If you wanted, you could with minimal adjustment have it automatically have [cost] be the cost of the other half
You literally - and I mean this in a nice and non-attacking way - need to go back to Comp Rules 101. I'm not kidding. Section 101.1, aka "The Golden Rule" of Magic: You might think I'm being flippant by bringing this up, but I'm really not. The Golden Rule allows Doran to assign combat damage equal to his toughness, when the rules say power. The Golden Rule keeps you from casting Haakon from your hand even though the rules say that you can. And, in this case, The Golden Rule says that one half of the split card with mirror image remembers the copiable values of its other half, even after that other half ceases to exist, even though spells don't normally do this.
Again, this is not a divide-by-zero or null-value issue. I want to give Jenesis credit for steering it away from that. This ability does not go onto the stack completely ignorant, and then ask "What was my other half, again?" The mirror image ability means that it always knows the copiable values of its other half, even after the other half goes *poof*. That. Is. What. It. Does.
I was actually only planning on doing one common cycle per set. Across a 10-set block, that's a lot of cards. Do you feel cheated by only getting three cards with mirror image in each set? I was thinking about doing a "color-pair // color-pair" rare cycle like Odds//Ends and friends. That would mean six mirror image cards per set and 60 in the block.
What say you?
Also, SecretInfiltrator, THANK YOU for the constructive response. I appreciate that you're reading both sides of the issue and trying to work out a solution.