Highroller> OK, so you mostly play on News. Well, the fact is that several of the things you've been doing in this game are widely viewed as scummy by Salvation players. Rather than going from first principles to work out why our playing style is better (:tongue3:) I suggest you just accept at face value that you have indeed made yourself look a lot like a scum. And move on. It's a particularly bad idea to attack CropCircles, who is only voicing the ideas we're all thinking.
Heh. So now you're going to teach me how to play mafia? That's pretty cute.
Three most suspicious people in the game? First off, I'm pretty darn suspicious of Puzzle. His voting restriction doesn't really make a whole lot of sense at all. However, he doesn't enter into my top three.
After arguing with CropCircles for a bit, while I completely disagree with almost everything he's said so far, I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt and accept that he actually believes that his method will get him anywhere over the course of this game, for the duration of today.
After reading the thread over again, person I'm most suspicious of is LJustus. LJustus spent most of the game never posting more than three lines of text per post. I almost thought that was his role restriction, except every so often he'll post a bit longer.
Not to mention this post:
Quote from LJustus »
And for scummiest appearance in a mafia game, the award goes to vote Highroller.
Seriously, you have to be prodded to post, but when you do, you come in with both barrels blazing trying to get information that would only benefit the mafia -- or perhaps your win condition as a SK is something different, like you have to kill all the female characters or all the characters from a specific episode/issue of Sin City.
Let me say this again. . . . Mass claims on Day 1 only benefit the mafia. Calling for a mass claim on Day 1 is scummy.
Total lies passed off as truth. He has yet to address the post in which I first pointed this out. Unvote, vote LJustus
Second most suspicious is to Fayul, who seems to really like jumping on the Highroller bandwagon. In fact, I think he did it three times over. Not to mention he has yet to explain this post:
Quote from Fayul »
Anyone who's not voting Highroller after that last post is crazy. If you think this information is so insignificant to the mafia, why do you want it in the first place?
Unvote, Vote: Highroller
Which makes no sense at all.
Third most suspicious probably goes to Matjoeman for basically parroting everything CropCircles said when it came down to the case against Highroller.
Because I want to know what it does. Because it tells us something about the game. Because lynching Az would actually be doing something, which is what we're not doing right now.
yeah, but its like voting no lynch for the town in terms of what it would accomplish.
I do think a lot of people are pushing highroller too hard. he didn't ask anything really wrong from my pov.
Second most suspicious is to Fayul, who seems to really like jumping on the Highroller bandwagon. In fact, I think she did it three times over. Not to mention she has yet to explain this post:
fixed
Anyway the following is being posted in all my games:
I'm going away for a couple of days starting tomorrow and won't be able to post until Tuesday evening.
You keep saying that the information you're pushing for, if aqucired, will be of little consequence to the mafia. If so, then it is also of little consequence to the town, no?
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Lord, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, the wisdom to know the difference, and a ****ing chainsaw.
You keep saying that the information you're pushing for, if aqucired, will be of little consequence to the mafia. If so, then it is also of little consequence to the town, no?
Because what is good for the mafia is also good for the town, and harmful for the mafia also harmful for the town? What kind of train of logic are you following Fayul?
I have to say that so far, I don't think HR is that scummy. He's a little more aggressive in his approach than most here, but it doesn't mean he's scum. He acted similarly in Super Mario RPG Mafia, and he was definitely pro-town there. I still don't understand his approach entirely, though.
Anyway, I'll go along with CC right now in saying that I would like to hear from WoLG again. It's been a while, and he's still on my list of more suspicious people. I'm also waiting to hear from Puzzle again. I don't feel comfortable with following an Az lynch or any of these other random accusations, at least not until I get more information from these two.
Because what is good for the mafia is also good for the town, and harmful for the mafia also harmful for the town? What kind of train of logic are you following Fayul?
Just answer me: What do you hope to accopmlish by gaining this information?
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Lord, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, the wisdom to know the difference, and a ****ing chainsaw.
Just answer me: What do you hope to accopmlish by gaining this information?
And once again you ask the same questions that have already been asked and answered ad nauseum. Are you capable of making any kind of argument that hasn't been borrowed?
Lord, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, the wisdom to know the difference, and a ****ing chainsaw.
i'm an analyst, and i feed on information. information benefits the town in that we can discover or infer things about the game that can lead to cornering mafia, clearing people and allowing for the greatest use of the towns abilities. it also can lead the mafia to power roles within the game and allow for better false roleclaims.
I believe in pretty open information giving in general during mafia games.
In a game like this where the power roles are not easily found and roleclaims are easy to falsify anyways, I see no danger in "fishing" for some general information that helps us get a general picture.
yeah, but its like voting no lynch for the town in terms of what it would accomplish.
Would it?
Hands up anyone who thinks Azrael is town. Anyone? No? Didn't think so. We've been over this.
In which case he has to die at some point.
The only reason it would be a waste is because we can perhaps get a scum of a killing kind instead. And learn a bit.
Who's to say, though, that if we got past 50% votes or something on Azrael he wouldn't claim? Or do something? We don't know. I still think Azrael is better as a target for a vig to prove themselves on at some point, but I see where Highroller is coming from as far as actually progressing the game.
Fayul fishing for HR's exact role name (and by continuance, fishing for the comic my role is linked to) is not welcome. There's no real point to it. I don't like it.
SG- do you have some particular reason to believe Azrael is Dark Horse? I'm not inclined to believe he's Dark Horse as if by magic. Perhaps tomorrow Mr Horse will enlighten us on this point.
I agree that's it time for WOLG to speak again.
I think it's cute how AS is now being all with the attacking what HR says while saying he doesn't find HR scummy. It looks a lot like someone distancing themselves from an eventual townie lynch.
I currently feel it is very likely that Az is Dark Horse.
Either way, he's a part of the game for a purpose, which means at some point he will make his presence in this game noticable. Unless JC has role based info about Az, then the fact that we know he is here is a fluke. He must have planned to make his presense known somehow, so until we see what his purpose is here, I really don't think we should go lynching(or vigging) him. Besides, even if he isn't town, that doesn't mean he can't be completely nuetral. I don't see any reason to believe that he will have to be dead for us to win.
Alright, back to HighRoller's questions. I'm still not sure about the question of who left the town hall, but I'm gonna do a complete turn around on the question of who isn't a character in the Sin City comics. So far, I believe we've had 4 come out, so I'm not sure there will be many more, but with DYH being a nameless role with a powerful ability, there's not much more arguement against revealing this info.
Furthermore, I think we should consider the idea of a mass soft claim. So far, we've had Sin City characters, "other" characters, and nameless roles. It may be a good idea to have everyone claim which group they're in. Thoughts?
Hands up anyone who thinks Azrael is town. Anyone? No? Didn't think so. We've been over this.
In which case he has to die at some point.
Thats a ridiculous assertion. The entire game could pass by with nobody ever even THINKING of voting azrael. And even if hes a character, nobody said he has to die for the town to win.
The only reason it would be a waste is because we can perhaps get a scum of a killing kind instead.
Someone voting for no-lynch can make the exact same argument.
Who's to say, though, that if we got past 50% votes or something on Azrael he wouldn't claim? Or do something?
who's to say that it will be beneficial to the town? Also, if Az is dark horse (i see no evidence for this but w/e), he's at least leaning towards he town.
I think it's cute how AS is now being all with the attacking what HR says while saying he doesn't find HR scummy. It looks a lot like someone distancing themselves from an eventual townie lynch.
uh..
1. when did i attack HR?
2. So if HR gets lynched and he's a townie, I'm suspicious? How is that remotely fair?
3. HR isn't really in danger of being lynched; a lot of people say he doesn't look scummy. Me or Puzzle are a LOT more likely lynch targets today.
Thats a ridiculous assertion. The entire game could pass by with nobody ever even THINKING of voting azrael.
Yup, totally agree.
To say nothing of the fact that we only know we can vote for him, we don't know he can be lynched. It might be similar to voting "No Lynch" except that Azrael writes up a gruesome scene in which we lynch some totally innocent NPC.
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To say nothing of the fact that we only know we can vote for him, we don't know he can be lynched. It might be similar to voting "No Lynch" except that Azrael writes up a gruesome scene in which we lynch some totally innocent NPC.
This conclusion brought to you based upon rampant speculation.
Why should we presume that voting for him would equal no-lynch? If he's in the game, he's not there as a distraction. As has been pointed out, if not for JCS' random vote and someone picking up on it appearing in the vote count, we could quite easily go through the entire game without realising Az is playing (except for his hint not to trust him, anyway). If Azrael is indeed a non-town, I'm sure he's find it very amusing if we eliminated all the rest of the scum and then killed all of each other trying to find the last person while it was him all along. That strikes me as a moderately likely thing for him to do. MUCH more than putting himself in just to be an auto no-lynch.
Well, let's see if Az is actually just letting us "vote" for anyone at all, regardless of whether they can be lynched at all in this game.
unvote, vote Pooky the Magical Bear
If that gets counted, we can probably assume he's just being cute and is listing any old vote in the vote count. If not, I'm afraid to say you're going to have to justify Azrael as a town or I'm going to continue advocate him as a target for the vig at some point. I can't see how he's a possible townie, and in mafia anyone who isn't town is scum to be slain.
Quote from aurorasparrow »
Thats a ridiculous assertion. The entire game could pass by with nobody ever even THINKING of voting azrael. And even if hes a character, nobody said he has to die for the town to win.
As said above, correct, the entire game could have passed without anyone thinking of it, in which case Azrael would win. You think he wouldn't do it? And if he's not a townie (and do you believe there's a townie who know who all the mafia are? I don't...), he's scum. Neutrals never count as townies. Writing my statement off as ridiculous is poor analysis. You might be able to weasel an argument that we can win with Az alive, but logically on the balance of probabilities he is killable and will not win with the town. Anyway, we'll see the result of my voting experiment shortly.
Also:
Quote from aurorasparrow »
uh..
1. when did i attack HR?
2. So if HR gets lynched and he's a townie, I'm suspicious? How is that remotely fair?
3. HR isn't really in danger of being lynched; a lot of people say he doesn't look scummy. Me or Puzzle are a LOT more likely lynch targets today.
1. My POINT was you attacked what he said without attacking him. Way to try and misrepresent the argument.
2. You're suspicious anyway, as you acknowledge in the next line. I would think you're LESS suspicious if HR turns out to be scum, though, because you've been trying to discredit his tactics which is more important than just FOSing him or anything. I think that it's fair enough in that case that you'd be more suspicious if he turns up town and you've been discrediting the tactics of a townie.
3. Noted, although I'm not sure what your actual point is.
The more I think about it, the more this is standard AS behavior. See LotR mafia (he was still town before the end game) and Shaman mafia (he was doc..)
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To the well organized mind, death is but the next great adventure.
As has been pointed out, if not for JCS' random vote and someone picking up on it appearing in the vote count, we could quite easily go through the entire game without realising Az is playing (except for his hint not to trust him, anyway). If Azrael is indeed a non-town, I'm sure he's find it very amusing if we eliminated all the rest of the scum and then killed all of each other trying to find the last person while it was him all along.
1. If this is the case, then we can deal with it when we've killed loads of scum and haven't won.
2. I highly doubt that Az put himself in here without the intention of making himself known at some point or other. Why don't we wait a couple nights and see why exactly he's here for before making any rash decisions?
To say nothing of the fact that we only know we can vote for him, we don't know he can be lynched. It might be similar to voting "No Lynch" except that Azrael writes up a gruesome scene in which we lynch some totally innocent NPC.
Yes, it would be very similar to voting no lynch, except for two very obvious facts:
1. Azrael, when creating this game, specifically made it so the town could lynch Azrael. I don't know if you've ever created a game, but you don't make that sort of feature if it doesn't have a purpose.
2. Azrael told us to "don't trust anyone, including me". At the time, that didn't make much sense. I think it does now.
Although, I'll wait to see if we should trust Pooky the Magical Bear or not.
Quote from Crippled_Fist »
2. Highroller - I really don't see the gain from the claims worth the risk. I know Az has probably scattered the power roles so they can't be easily checked but one would assume people like Marv or det. Hartigan could easily have powerful abilities. Sure, they might not even be in the game, but I don't know if we can count on the scum counting on that. And with the possible repeative day killer around (btw, I never gained an answer to whether scum day-killers are usually mafia one-shots/SK's/SK one-shots (?)/others) any hint towards a power role may prove fatal.
FOS: Crippled_Fist. I see nothing in my questions that would ever point to Marv or Hartigan. One of my questions has been, in fact, answered. So to continue to say my line of questioning poses some great risk to the town is a nonargument.
@CF: I think it's actually rather likely that the power roles are split between Sin City characters, non-SC characters, and nameless characters. Yes, Marv, Hartigan, Miho, etc. will be easier to find if we keep spouting role info, but those probably aren't the only power roles, and there's nothing saying that those roles will all be more powerful then everyone else's. See LotR, where Gandalf was non-existent, and some named characters had no abilities.
This conclusion brought to you based upon rampant speculation.
Why should we presume that voting for him would equal no-lynch? If he's in the game, he's not there as a distraction. As has been pointed out, if not for JCS' random vote and someone picking up on it appearing in the vote count, we could quite easily go through the entire game without realising Az is playing (except for his hint not to trust him, anyway). If Azrael is indeed a non-town, I'm sure he's find it very amusing if we eliminated all the rest of the scum and then killed all of each other trying to find the last person while it was him all along. That strikes me as a moderately likely thing for him to do. MUCH more than putting himself in just to be an auto no-lynch.
Well, let's see if Az is actually just letting us "vote" for anyone at all, regardless of whether they can be lynched at all in this game.
unvote, vote Pooky the Magical Bear
If that gets counted, we can probably assume he's just being cute and is listing any old vote in the vote count. If not, I'm afraid to say you're going to have to justify Azrael as a town or I'm going to continue advocate him as a target for the vig at some point. I can't see how he's a possible townie, and in mafia anyone who isn't town is scum to be slain.
That's not true. There have been neutrals in mafia games that win simply for surviving, and do not prevent eitehr side from winning.
Distance Azrael the player from Azrael the mod, because thats the only way this makes sense (obv. we can't ACTUALLY lynch the mod). Azrael, assuming a player, doesn't have to reveal things his mod persona knows. Ie, if hes Dark Horse, he wouldn't say:
You could call me a friend. So attached is a list of the mafia in this game..
Conversely, player Az does not say:
MAFIA! _______ is Hartigan. Kill him first, then kill ______ who is Marv, then dyh who is Lunatic/Inspector/roleblocker. The game should be yours after that.
In fact, player Az hasn't said anything yet if he's not Dark Horse. Even if he takes a side, why should we assume he can say anything? Why should we assume he can do ANYTHING?
We don't even know if Azrael saw the vote for him, said, "eh, lets **** with them a little," and let it pass just to play mind games. He might not register your nothing vote just to make it worse.
As of right now, Azrael is as much a potential threat to the town as he is to the mafia. We'll lynch him when we have the luxury of killing a speechless, voteless person about whom we have no information.
1. My POINT was you attacked what he said without attacking him. Way to try and misrepresent the argument.
can you show these attacks to me? I don't really recall attacking HR's statements.
also, you don't have to be absolutely be for or against somebody. Even with logical arguments, there are gut feelings and such.
3. Noted, although I'm not sure what your actual point is.
it would be a rather bad idea for me to try to come out looking good of an unlikely situation than to focus on my immediate danger. If my train of thought was the one you detailed, it would make more sense for me to either full-flegedly defend HR or to subtly attack him to try to get the vote off me.
I wish it hadn't come to this, but a rule is a rule.
If anyone has questions about whether a post can be legimately posted in the thread, they should PM me first. I'm perfectly willing to help you review your posts for problems.
Suddenly, Kenji falls out of his chair, clutching his chest. It seems the strain of the days events proved too much for him. Rolling on the floor and gasping in obvious pain, you crowd around him, and try to make him as comfortable as you can. Someone suggests unlocking the doors so you can get a doctor, but the man in red sneakers firmly objects. No one goes in or out until it's over, he'd said, and he was going to stick to that rule.
Helplessly, you watch as his breathing becomes more and more spasmodic, until finally, he dies.
Dead: 1. DYH-Townie Lunatic/Roleblocker/Investigator. Slashed to ribbons on Day One.
2. Kenji-Townie Paranoid. Died of a sudden heart attack day one. (Modkill)
So he was modkilled for saying soemthing about his restriction he was not supposed to. Is it his lists that he was making? Or was it him clarifying that he could only vote each once or get modkilled? I think it was probably that...
I agree with your smiley there Einsteinmonkey. Quite a special setup we have here.
After reading through the last couple of pages, I feel no need to unvote or to change my vote. Sorry you don't like it Highroller, but my initial feelings about the way you came into the game haven't changed. I have reread the pertinent pages, and I still feel you are probing for too much information too early. If you are a townie, you have to realize that too much information at this stage of the game can only hurt the town and help the baddies.
The only way I can see a mass claim helping the town on day 1 is if there is an inherent flaw in the game setup. I have enough faith in Az to know for almost certain that this is not the case.
So. Azrael can vote for people and can be voted for. Azrael is voting for Highroller. Azrael also knows exactly who is mafia and who isn't.
If Azrael were town, this would create a somewhat unballanced situation, yes? Even assuming he put restrictions on himself such that he couldn't simply blab exactly who the bad guys were.
That pretty much leaves Neutral and Non-town. It's entirely possible he gave himself a secret win condition in this game--possibly revolving around who gets lynched/night-killed. He could also be straight-up evil. Highroller has referenced a game where he did that one himself. Doesn't matter that he knows who the bad guys are, since he's one of them. The trick is, which of his votes are to help the bad guys vs. trick the town.
I don't see how he's straight-up townie helper under those circumstances.
I wonder about JCSuperstar and that initial vote. I think he knows more about this situation.
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Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
I would assume that it would have to be some kind of "trigger" to get Azrael to vote for someone; otherwise, there's way too much possibility for mod bias creeping into the game.
Axel may have a point about jcsuperstar, though. I'd like to hear more from him.
LJustus: I don't think anyone's been pushing for a mass claim. HR has only asked some questions, which isn't the same as a mass claim. In a lot of cases, asking the right questions early can help the town out a lot in the long run without helping the Mafia at all.
In other news, where the heck are Puzzle and WoLG?
Puzzle went to GP Lille. He's not lurking, just absent.
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While I still think HR is the number 1 suspect at this point, I'd like to Unvote, Vote: WolG until he posts adressing the stuff against him.
(For the sake of clarity, FoS: Highroller)
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Lord, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, the wisdom to know the difference, and a ****ing chainsaw.
The mod knows all, so the right play here is to Vote Highroller. This could lead to knowing Az's alignment.
I am caustious of blindly following you down this but Highroller is one of the scummier players today and I am also interested in finding out what Az is doing.
Sorry for my absence, folks. It's been a busy weekend.
Quote from Axelrod »
I wonder about JCSuperstar and that initial vote. I think he knows more about this situation.
Quote from carrion pigeons, Sin City Mafia Signup Thread »
Knowing Az, there just might be a way to lynch the mod. He'd probably be scum, too.
I remembered this and thought I would test it out. That's all.
Going back and reviewing the thread in chrological order from when I left...
-DYH's post:
I would guess there's a townie that can summon the spirit of a dead townie once per day. Either that or it's part of DYH's role that he turns into a ghost when he dies.
Originally I had thought DYH was Lola, but clearly that's not the case. He refers to "my little Lola," implying that he's Lola's parent. But that makes his little girl persona and his babble about "mommy" and "daddy" even stranger.
DYH confirms that, at least as far as he knows, it was Kevin who killed him.
-Highroller vs. Cropcircles
Quote from CropCircles »
Furthermore, I think we should consider the idea of a mass soft claim. So far, we've had Sin City characters, "other" characters, and nameless roles. It may be a good idea to have everyone claim which group they're in. Thoughts?
ummmm.... Hmmmm...... so how is this not EXACTLY what you were earlier saying we shouldn't do?
For the record, I think mass claims can be useful in certain situations, but not generally on day 1. The mafia start off with more information, so they may be in a better position to take advantage of information that is shared.
I think CC's suggestion would be especially unhelpful to the town. Any scum who doesn't want to take a risk can always claim to have a nameless role. I can't see what the town would gain from that claim, at this point.
Slight FOS: CropCircles
-Az votes
I think the fact that Az has a vote proves that he's neither mafia nor town. If he were either, he knows who the other team is and could vote for them.
It might be something similar as "Az wins if he is the last 'player' left alive," or it could be much more complicated. FOS: Azrael. Care to explain yourself a little bit?
Hmmm... That's some quality bandwaggoning by SorryGuy and armlx.
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I think the fact that Az has a vote proves that he's neither mafia nor town. If he were either, he knows who the other team is and could vote for them.
It might be something similar as "Az wins if he is the last 'player' left alive," or it could be much more complicated. FOS: Azrael. Care to explain yourself a little bit?
Hmmm... That's some quality bandwaggoning by SorryGuy and armlx.
He will not explain himself. He has never actully commented on the game, nor should he, he is a host. As for him having a win condition, it seems strange for him to have one at all, as he decided them. I think the most likely thing is that he votes whoever is acting most scummy, not who is scummy. Acting scummy can be lieing about things he knows are not true, etc. I don't know, just throwing out ideas. Maybe he just votes along LALs lines?
...
Who knows. But it is strange and I want to ge tto the bottum of it. But he is obviously not scum so he is not the right lynch. But HR might be and it would also lead us to finding out about Az so that is my vote for now.
Well, between Az voting for HR and my vote on Pooky not being counted, we've learned something. No idea what, though.
I think blindly following the mod's vote is not the smartest idea. He can't possibly be town. If I were mafia and I had the MOD pointing me out day 1, I would be incredibly cheesed off. Az won't be doing that. If anything, he's mucking this up a bit by probably signalling that HR must be non-mafia.
Someone guessed that maybe he votes based on LAL. Well, that would be interesting and would say something about HR, so let's test that too.
Hey, Az, my role is triple cop and double doctor and my character is Ziggy Stardust & the Spiders from Mars! What do you think of that claim?
This is so wierd. What is Azrael's motivation? <_<
I think that like in pirate mafia regarding the SK, we just ignore Azrael. All our analyzing of him does is confuse us from our search of scum.. the only way we can truly learn anything about his character is by killing him, and its about as simple as that.
If a vig feels like killing him, I'm not sure if its a good idea or not. I would just suggest we pretend he has no influence on the game (but recognize his vote, of course).
Dang, I'm just not having good luck with posting on this thread. Third try.
Long post short: suspicion or clearance of either Az or HR based on Az's vote is inherently WIFOM. Az being able to vote at his own whim is unfair, even if he's neutral, thus he probably can't, and fade is right about his vote being triggered somehow.
Therefore, if you're voting for HR based on Az, you probably ought to reconsider your motivation.
I am personally more suspicious of AS than HR. I disagree with HR's play style, and am unwilling to play along, but that's because I am a regular player here who knows that mods regularly put roles that punish revealing much info into the games on this site. Presumably on News, the mods don't do that as much, so he can feel safer in suggesting something like that. On Salvation, of the first four games played on the site, I think three of them were broken by mass claims, so a lot of the game designers who were present at the time (Az included) can be expected to make a special effort to avoid that. Since then, the majority of the games the mafia have won on this site have been due to badly-planned schemes to soft claim or otherwise give away seemingly valueless information.
Aside from fishing, which is potentially excusable from both AS and HR (but more from HR, who, AFAIK, hasn't ever actually played a game on this site), AS is also guilty of several other scummy tells that are hareder to explain away, such as implying knowledge that hasn't been proven (such as about the voteblock), and blindly agreeing with other players without sufficiently giving reasoning.
What?! Look at the initial post; he is dead. Deceased. Kaputt. Indefinitely horizontal. In mafia games, you see, people are occasionally "killed off," and when that sad event occurs, he or she is no longer allowed to post, on account of rigor mortis and what-have-you.
'Welcome to Mafia Salvation', it said, 'Population: 3,660.' And someone, they never figured out who, had painted on the sign in red letters: '1,831 to lynch.'
@JC: Yes, I have done a complete 180 on my original stance. This is primarily based on DYH being a nameless character with a rather powerful ability.
The point of a soft claim in which each of us claims Sin City Character vs. Non-Sin City vs. nameless would be to lock scum into whatever they're going to claim right now. Obviously, most would probably claim nameless character or Non-Sin City. But at least they're locked into that before they start finding out what names are in the game. Meanwhile, they can't come to any definite conclusions as to what our roles are.
Yes, mods have made sure that a mass claim wouldn't break the game, but they've taken precautions in the other direction as well. In LotR, there was a nameless character who was the back-up cop, whereas there were named roles with no abilities at all. Since we have a nameless role with a powerful ability, I think it is pretty safe to say that there will be named roles with much less power. Otherwise, the majority of us would have power roles.
My biggest problem with the Sin City/Non-Sin City claim, is that these freaking characters are so morally ambiguous as it is that we don't really learn much. I strongly suspect the mafia will not simply be composed of obviously evil Sin City Characters (how many of those are there anyway?). In which case a claim like that doesn't do much at all.
Actually, from what we have seen so far, the number on non Sin City "Characters" appears quite high. Neither of our dead fellows, not Highroller, not Raf (I'm actually not sure about that one without re-checking), not Hawkeye7 either, I don't think.
I'm still actually happy with the Puzzle vote. No one has claimed responsibility for it, so it seems like it's either a mafia pacifist (bizarre, but possible), a cult (less likely in my opinion), or he's lying.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
carrion pigeons, Sin City Mafia Signup Thread Knowing Az, there just might be a way to lynch the mod. He'd probably be scum, too.
I remembered this and thought I would test it out. That's all.
This is just too freaky of a coincidence. You are actually saying you saw that post in the sign-up thread and thought it might work?. Why on earth would you think this?
It's not actually scummy for you to have special knowledge, nor is voting for Az having said knowledge. It's just unbelievable. So your explanation is the thing that's somewhat scummy now.
Of course, now I'm worried about some other kind of posting/role restriction which means you get mod-killed if you say too much. Can you say if you don't have such a restriction, just to clear that up.
Aurorasparrow: what do you mean, don't say because it might help the mafia? Isn't that the reason we don't do mass roll claims in every game day one?
I haven't been exactly on the ball this game yet, but you need to explain again why you think it would be helpful, not just why you think it wouldn't actually hurt much. Would it restrict mafia claiming? Well, maybe? We don't really know. But as I said, I'd be surprised if the mafia was just "Evil" people from Sin City. A Mod. as devious as Az. would never do something so basic.
In fact, I fear the depths to which he has probably gone to ensure that we will have no clue what's going on in this game for quite a while.
That said, I would participate in a full and complete mass role-claim right now, just because I am curious to know what the devil's going on. Though, as I said, I suspect it won't help us, and might put the town in quite a hole day one.
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Claiming whether you are from Sin City comics or not does divide the town into people who could be Marv etc. and those who can't, no?
No. We don't know Marv or Hartigan are in the game. Even if we did, we don't know what percentage of the towns are not from Sin City. Even if it were a substantial amount, we don't know what percentage of the towns from Sin City are characters versus generic roles. The Sin City/Not from Sin City claim in itself doesn't point to it.
I just think this is notable because the mod OMGUS voted me. I find that funny.
Oh, someone I think mentioned something that I should take seriously. No, Azrael is not voting me because of a restriction with my role. As I stated before, I have no role restrictions.
Quote from LJustus »
After reading through the last couple of pages, I feel no need to unvote or to change my vote. Sorry you don't like it Highroller, but my initial feelings about the way you came into the game haven't changed. I have reread the pertinent pages, and I still feel you are probing for too much information too early. If you are a townie, you have to realize that too much information at this stage of the game can only hurt the town and help the baddies.
Which necessitates lying to the town? LJustus, don't act like it's a matter of opinion. You said I advocated a mass claim. I didn't. That means that you lied specifically to get other people to vote for me.
If you honestly think I'm asking too much, fine. But acknowledge that this is NOT what you said. You specifically said "mass claim", which the information I asked for could not, except for the most remote stretches of imagination, be. Thus, YOU LIED TO THE TOWN. Vote stands.
Regarding Azrael:
Azrael is not town. He knows every malevolent role. Because of this, power would be about as unbalanced as it ever could be if Azrael were town. Therefore, armlx and SorryGuy are acting at a level of stupidity far beyond normal mental retardation for thinking this is the case. FOS: SorryGuy and armlx, to the point of voting for either of you.
Azrael cannot be mafia. He knows every information role. Because of this, power would be about as unbalanced as it ever could be if Azrael were mafia.
Azrael MUST be a member of a third party whose win condition is not in line with either.
The problem with this is twofold:
1. How does Azrael win the game?
2. What would have happened if no one had voted Azrael?
Now, we have no way of knowing this for sure, except if we lynch Azrael, which I don't think we should do today.
However, I believe this means that we should ignore Azrael. I remember when I was an evil mod for Odyssey block Mafia, if anyone ever played on News and might remember this, I actively tried to screw with people's minds by voting and switching votes. To overanalyze what Azrael does is, I think, exactly what we should not do, and probably what he wants.
I am holding my vote for Puzzle's return. I won't vote him while he's away, but I feel we need to hit the sk ASAP. His non-vote is the closest thing we have to Kevin's silence, with WOLG coming in a close second. I want to hear more from both of them before we decide on a lynch.
This is just too freaky of a coincidence. You are actually saying you saw that post in the sign-up thread and thought it might work?. Why on earth would you think this?
Axel, I want you to re-read this quote of yours and realize how silly it is. There is nothing the least bit freaky about what I said, and your italics (changed to bold by me) don't make it any freakier.
I'm not really comfortable with the Highroller bandwagon. Really, the only point against him is that he's advocating a partial mass claim, which I disagree with but I can understand his point of view.
I don't think learning HR's alignment would tell us that much about Az either. The two most likely explanations for is vote are:
a) he's playing a neutral role, and/or
b) his vote is automatically triggered by something that happened in the game.
In either case, lynching HR is not likely to give us much info.
I also don't like the way armlx and Sorryguy are kind of tag-teaming on this issue. They put two votes on him within 10 minutes of each other, and then both advocated his lynch in subsequent posts. FOS: armlxand SorryGuy.
Quote from SorryGuy »
He will not explain himself. He has never actully commented on the game, nor should he, he is a host.
You sure about that? Bet you didn't think he could vote, either, until he did it.
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Axel, I want you to re-read this quote of yours and realize how silly it is. There is nothing the least bit freaky about what I said, and your italics (changed to bold by me) don't make it any freakier.
Total agreement. Even before the game started, I figured we could vote the mod
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Heh. So now you're going to teach me how to play mafia? That's pretty cute.
Three most suspicious people in the game? First off, I'm pretty darn suspicious of Puzzle. His voting restriction doesn't really make a whole lot of sense at all. However, he doesn't enter into my top three.
After arguing with CropCircles for a bit, while I completely disagree with almost everything he's said so far, I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt and accept that he actually believes that his method will get him anywhere over the course of this game, for the duration of today.
After reading the thread over again, person I'm most suspicious of is LJustus. LJustus spent most of the game never posting more than three lines of text per post. I almost thought that was his role restriction, except every so often he'll post a bit longer.
Not to mention this post:
Total lies passed off as truth. He has yet to address the post in which I first pointed this out. Unvote, vote LJustus
Second most suspicious is to Fayul, who seems to really like jumping on the Highroller bandwagon. In fact, I think he did it three times over. Not to mention he has yet to explain this post:
Which makes no sense at all.
Third most suspicious probably goes to Matjoeman for basically parroting everything CropCircles said when it came down to the case against Highroller.
yeah, but its like voting no lynch for the town in terms of what it would accomplish.
I do think a lot of people are pushing highroller too hard. he didn't ask anything really wrong from my pov.
4th place at CCC&G Pro Tour
Chances of bad hands (<2 or >4 land):
21: 28.9%
22: 27.5%
23: 26.3%
24: 25.5%
25: 25.1%
26: 25.3%
fixed
Anyway the following is being posted in all my games:
I'm going away for a couple of days starting tomorrow and won't be able to post until Tuesday evening.
Town/Mafia/Other - 14/6/3
Win/Lose/Tie - 11/12/0
Nk/lynched/Survived - 16/4/3
You keep saying that the information you're pushing for, if aqucired, will be of little consequence to the mafia. If so, then it is also of little consequence to the town, no?
Because what is good for the mafia is also good for the town, and harmful for the mafia also harmful for the town? What kind of train of logic are you following Fayul?
Anyway, I'll go along with CC right now in saying that I would like to hear from WoLG again. It's been a while, and he's still on my list of more suspicious people. I'm also waiting to hear from Puzzle again. I don't feel comfortable with following an Az lynch or any of these other random accusations, at least not until I get more information from these two.
Just answer me: What do you hope to accopmlish by gaining this information?
And once again you ask the same questions that have already been asked and answered ad nauseum. Are you capable of making any kind of argument that hasn't been borrowed?
I believe in pretty open information giving in general during mafia games.
In a game like this where the power roles are not easily found and roleclaims are easy to falsify anyways, I see no danger in "fishing" for some general information that helps us get a general picture.
4th place at CCC&G Pro Tour
Chances of bad hands (<2 or >4 land):
21: 28.9%
22: 27.5%
23: 26.3%
24: 25.5%
25: 25.1%
26: 25.3%
Would it?
Hands up anyone who thinks Azrael is town. Anyone? No? Didn't think so. We've been over this.
In which case he has to die at some point.
The only reason it would be a waste is because we can perhaps get a scum of a killing kind instead. And learn a bit.
Who's to say, though, that if we got past 50% votes or something on Azrael he wouldn't claim? Or do something? We don't know. I still think Azrael is better as a target for a vig to prove themselves on at some point, but I see where Highroller is coming from as far as actually progressing the game.
Fayul fishing for HR's exact role name (and by continuance, fishing for the comic my role is linked to) is not welcome. There's no real point to it. I don't like it.
SG- do you have some particular reason to believe Azrael is Dark Horse? I'm not inclined to believe he's Dark Horse as if by magic. Perhaps tomorrow Mr Horse will enlighten us on this point.
I agree that's it time for WOLG to speak again.
I think it's cute how AS is now being all with the attacking what HR says while saying he doesn't find HR scummy. It looks a lot like someone distancing themselves from an eventual townie lynch.
Either way, he's a part of the game for a purpose, which means at some point he will make his presence in this game noticable. Unless JC has role based info about Az, then the fact that we know he is here is a fluke. He must have planned to make his presense known somehow, so until we see what his purpose is here, I really don't think we should go lynching(or vigging) him. Besides, even if he isn't town, that doesn't mean he can't be completely nuetral. I don't see any reason to believe that he will have to be dead for us to win.
Alright, back to HighRoller's questions. I'm still not sure about the question of who left the town hall, but I'm gonna do a complete turn around on the question of who isn't a character in the Sin City comics. So far, I believe we've had 4 come out, so I'm not sure there will be many more, but with DYH being a nameless role with a powerful ability, there's not much more arguement against revealing this info.
Furthermore, I think we should consider the idea of a mass soft claim. So far, we've had Sin City characters, "other" characters, and nameless roles. It may be a good idea to have everyone claim which group they're in. Thoughts?
[The Family]
Thats a ridiculous assertion. The entire game could pass by with nobody ever even THINKING of voting azrael. And even if hes a character, nobody said he has to die for the town to win.
Someone voting for no-lynch can make the exact same argument.
who's to say that it will be beneficial to the town? Also, if Az is dark horse (i see no evidence for this but w/e), he's at least leaning towards he town.
uh..
1. when did i attack HR?
2. So if HR gets lynched and he's a townie, I'm suspicious? How is that remotely fair?
3. HR isn't really in danger of being lynched; a lot of people say he doesn't look scummy. Me or Puzzle are a LOT more likely lynch targets today.
4th place at CCC&G Pro Tour
Chances of bad hands (<2 or >4 land):
21: 28.9%
22: 27.5%
23: 26.3%
24: 25.5%
25: 25.1%
26: 25.3%
Yup, totally agree.
To say nothing of the fact that we only know we can vote for him, we don't know he can be lynched. It might be similar to voting "No Lynch" except that Azrael writes up a gruesome scene in which we lynch some totally innocent NPC.
(I'm on on this site much anymore. If you want to get in touch it's probably best to email me: dom@heffalumps.org)
Forum Awards: Best Writer 2005, Best Limited Strategist 2005-2012
5CB PotM - June 2005, November 2005, February 2006, April 2008, May 2008, Feb 2009
MTGSalvation Articles: 1-20, plus guest appearance on MTGCast #86!
<Limited Clan>
This conclusion brought to you based upon rampant speculation.
Why should we presume that voting for him would equal no-lynch? If he's in the game, he's not there as a distraction. As has been pointed out, if not for JCS' random vote and someone picking up on it appearing in the vote count, we could quite easily go through the entire game without realising Az is playing (except for his hint not to trust him, anyway). If Azrael is indeed a non-town, I'm sure he's find it very amusing if we eliminated all the rest of the scum and then killed all of each other trying to find the last person while it was him all along. That strikes me as a moderately likely thing for him to do. MUCH more than putting himself in just to be an auto no-lynch.
Well, let's see if Az is actually just letting us "vote" for anyone at all, regardless of whether they can be lynched at all in this game.
unvote, vote Pooky the Magical Bear
If that gets counted, we can probably assume he's just being cute and is listing any old vote in the vote count. If not, I'm afraid to say you're going to have to justify Azrael as a town or I'm going to continue advocate him as a target for the vig at some point. I can't see how he's a possible townie, and in mafia anyone who isn't town is scum to be slain.
As said above, correct, the entire game could have passed without anyone thinking of it, in which case Azrael would win. You think he wouldn't do it? And if he's not a townie (and do you believe there's a townie who know who all the mafia are? I don't...), he's scum. Neutrals never count as townies. Writing my statement off as ridiculous is poor analysis. You might be able to weasel an argument that we can win with Az alive, but logically on the balance of probabilities he is killable and will not win with the town. Anyway, we'll see the result of my voting experiment shortly.
Also:
1. My POINT was you attacked what he said without attacking him. Way to try and misrepresent the argument.
2. You're suspicious anyway, as you acknowledge in the next line. I would think you're LESS suspicious if HR turns out to be scum, though, because you've been trying to discredit his tactics which is more important than just FOSing him or anything. I think that it's fair enough in that case that you'd be more suspicious if he turns up town and you've been discrediting the tactics of a townie.
3. Noted, although I'm not sure what your actual point is.
2. I highly doubt that Az put himself in here without the intention of making himself known at some point or other. Why don't we wait a couple nights and see why exactly he's here for before making any rash decisions?
[The Family]
Yes, it would be very similar to voting no lynch, except for two very obvious facts:
1. Azrael, when creating this game, specifically made it so the town could lynch Azrael. I don't know if you've ever created a game, but you don't make that sort of feature if it doesn't have a purpose.
2. Azrael told us to "don't trust anyone, including me". At the time, that didn't make much sense. I think it does now.
Although, I'll wait to see if we should trust Pooky the Magical Bear or not.
FOS: Crippled_Fist. I see nothing in my questions that would ever point to Marv or Hartigan. One of my questions has been, in fact, answered. So to continue to say my line of questioning poses some great risk to the town is a nonargument.
[The Family]
Official Vote Count:
4 Highroller- Fayul, LJustus, DYH, Azrael
4 Puzzle-Fadeblue, Axelrod, Hawkeye7, Armlx
3 Aurorasparrow-JCSuperstar, Chamber, Carrion Pigeons
1 Azrael- WoLG
1 Fadeblue-Kenji
1 LJustus-Highroller
1 Sorryguy-Sorryguy
1 WoLG-Cropcircles
8 Not Voting: Aurorasparrow, Bateleur, Crippled Fist, Draygn_Mage, Einsteinmonkey, Matjoeman, Puzzle, Rafaelk
12 to lynch.
That's not true. There have been neutrals in mafia games that win simply for surviving, and do not prevent eitehr side from winning.
Distance Azrael the player from Azrael the mod, because thats the only way this makes sense (obv. we can't ACTUALLY lynch the mod). Azrael, assuming a player, doesn't have to reveal things his mod persona knows. Ie, if hes Dark Horse, he wouldn't say:
Conversely, player Az does not say:
In fact, player Az hasn't said anything yet if he's not Dark Horse. Even if he takes a side, why should we assume he can say anything? Why should we assume he can do ANYTHING?
We don't even know if Azrael saw the vote for him, said, "eh, lets **** with them a little," and let it pass just to play mind games. He might not register your nothing vote just to make it worse.
As of right now, Azrael is as much a potential threat to the town as he is to the mafia. We'll lynch him when we have the luxury of killing a speechless, voteless person about whom we have no information.
can you show these attacks to me? I don't really recall attacking HR's statements.
also, you don't have to be absolutely be for or against somebody. Even with logical arguments, there are gut feelings and such.
it would be a rather bad idea for me to try to come out looking good of an unlikely situation than to focus on my immediate danger. If my train of thought was the one you detailed, it would make more sense for me to either full-flegedly defend HR or to subtly attack him to try to get the vote off me.
4th place at CCC&G Pro Tour
Chances of bad hands (<2 or >4 land):
21: 28.9%
22: 27.5%
23: 26.3%
24: 25.5%
25: 25.1%
26: 25.3%
I wish it hadn't come to this, but a rule is a rule.
If anyone has questions about whether a post can be legimately posted in the thread, they should PM me first. I'm perfectly willing to help you review your posts for problems.
Suddenly, Kenji falls out of his chair, clutching his chest. It seems the strain of the days events proved too much for him. Rolling on the floor and gasping in obvious pain, you crowd around him, and try to make him as comfortable as you can. Someone suggests unlocking the doors so you can get a doctor, but the man in red sneakers firmly objects. No one goes in or out until it's over, he'd said, and he was going to stick to that rule.
Helplessly, you watch as his breathing becomes more and more spasmodic, until finally, he dies.
Living 21/23:
1. Fadeblue
2. Hawkeye7
3. JCSuperstar
4. RafaelK
5. Ljustus
6. Cropcircles
7. Carrion Pigeons
8. Aurorasparrow
9. Highroller
10. Bateleur
11. Puzzle
12. Axelrod
13. Draygn Mage
14. WellofLost Gnomes
15. Crippled_Fist
16. Armlx
17. Sorryguy
18. Matjoeman
19. Chamber
20. Fayul
21. Einsteinmonkey
Dead:
1. DYH-Townie Lunatic/Roleblocker/Investigator. Slashed to ribbons on Day One.
2. Kenji-Townie Paranoid. Died of a sudden heart attack day one. (Modkill)
11 to lynch.
This is not good. Two townies down.
After reading through the last couple of pages, I feel no need to unvote or to change my vote. Sorry you don't like it Highroller, but my initial feelings about the way you came into the game haven't changed. I have reread the pertinent pages, and I still feel you are probing for too much information too early. If you are a townie, you have to realize that too much information at this stage of the game can only hurt the town and help the baddies.
4th place at CCC&G Pro Tour
Chances of bad hands (<2 or >4 land):
21: 28.9%
22: 27.5%
23: 26.3%
24: 25.5%
25: 25.1%
26: 25.3%
If Azrael were town, this would create a somewhat unballanced situation, yes? Even assuming he put restrictions on himself such that he couldn't simply blab exactly who the bad guys were.
That pretty much leaves Neutral and Non-town. It's entirely possible he gave himself a secret win condition in this game--possibly revolving around who gets lynched/night-killed. He could also be straight-up evil. Highroller has referenced a game where he did that one himself. Doesn't matter that he knows who the bad guys are, since he's one of them. The trick is, which of his votes are to help the bad guys vs. trick the town.
I don't see how he's straight-up townie helper under those circumstances.
I wonder about JCSuperstar and that initial vote. I think he knows more about this situation.
Also the vote count reminds me to Unvote.
Axel may have a point about jcsuperstar, though. I'd like to hear more from him.
LJustus: I don't think anyone's been pushing for a mass claim. HR has only asked some questions, which isn't the same as a mass claim. In a lot of cases, asking the right questions early can help the town out a lot in the long run without helping the Mafia at all.
In other news, where the heck are Puzzle and WoLG?
(I'm on on this site much anymore. If you want to get in touch it's probably best to email me: dom@heffalumps.org)
Forum Awards: Best Writer 2005, Best Limited Strategist 2005-2012
5CB PotM - June 2005, November 2005, February 2006, April 2008, May 2008, Feb 2009
MTGSalvation Articles: 1-20, plus guest appearance on MTGCast #86!
<Limited Clan>
(For the sake of clarity, FoS: Highroller)
Sorry, sometimes I lose track of time.
The mod knows all, so the right play here is to Vote Highroller. This could lead to knowing Az's alignment.
I am caustious of blindly following you down this but Highroller is one of the scummier players today and I am also interested in finding out what Az is doing.
I will therefore follow you and Vote: Highroller
I remembered this and thought I would test it out. That's all.
Going back and reviewing the thread in chrological order from when I left...
-DYH's post:
I would guess there's a townie that can summon the spirit of a dead townie once per day. Either that or it's part of DYH's role that he turns into a ghost when he dies.
Originally I had thought DYH was Lola, but clearly that's not the case. He refers to "my little Lola," implying that he's Lola's parent. But that makes his little girl persona and his babble about "mommy" and "daddy" even stranger.
DYH confirms that, at least as far as he knows, it was Kevin who killed him.
-Highroller vs. Cropcircles
ummmm.... Hmmmm...... so how is this not EXACTLY what you were earlier saying we shouldn't do?
For the record, I think mass claims can be useful in certain situations, but not generally on day 1. The mafia start off with more information, so they may be in a better position to take advantage of information that is shared.
I think CC's suggestion would be especially unhelpful to the town. Any scum who doesn't want to take a risk can always claim to have a nameless role. I can't see what the town would gain from that claim, at this point.
Slight FOS: CropCircles
-Az votes
I think the fact that Az has a vote proves that he's neither mafia nor town. If he were either, he knows who the other team is and could vote for them.
It might be something similar as "Az wins if he is the last 'player' left alive," or it could be much more complicated.
FOS: Azrael. Care to explain yourself a little bit?
Hmmm... That's some quality bandwaggoning by SorryGuy and armlx.
He will not explain himself. He has never actully commented on the game, nor should he, he is a host. As for him having a win condition, it seems strange for him to have one at all, as he decided them. I think the most likely thing is that he votes whoever is acting most scummy, not who is scummy. Acting scummy can be lieing about things he knows are not true, etc. I don't know, just throwing out ideas. Maybe he just votes along LALs lines?
...
Who knows. But it is strange and I want to ge tto the bottum of it. But he is obviously not scum so he is not the right lynch. But HR might be and it would also lead us to finding out about Az so that is my vote for now.
I think blindly following the mod's vote is not the smartest idea. He can't possibly be town. If I were mafia and I had the MOD pointing me out day 1, I would be incredibly cheesed off. Az won't be doing that. If anything, he's mucking this up a bit by probably signalling that HR must be non-mafia.
Someone guessed that maybe he votes based on LAL. Well, that would be interesting and would say something about HR, so let's test that too.
Hey, Az, my role is triple cop and double doctor and my character is Ziggy Stardust & the Spiders from Mars! What do you think of that claim?
I think that like in pirate mafia regarding the SK, we just ignore Azrael. All our analyzing of him does is confuse us from our search of scum.. the only way we can truly learn anything about his character is by killing him, and its about as simple as that.
If a vig feels like killing him, I'm not sure if its a good idea or not. I would just suggest we pretend he has no influence on the game (but recognize his vote, of course).
4th place at CCC&G Pro Tour
Chances of bad hands (<2 or >4 land):
21: 28.9%
22: 27.5%
23: 26.3%
24: 25.5%
25: 25.1%
26: 25.3%
Long post short: suspicion or clearance of either Az or HR based on Az's vote is inherently WIFOM. Az being able to vote at his own whim is unfair, even if he's neutral, thus he probably can't, and fade is right about his vote being triggered somehow.
Therefore, if you're voting for HR based on Az, you probably ought to reconsider your motivation.
I am personally more suspicious of AS than HR. I disagree with HR's play style, and am unwilling to play along, but that's because I am a regular player here who knows that mods regularly put roles that punish revealing much info into the games on this site. Presumably on News, the mods don't do that as much, so he can feel safer in suggesting something like that. On Salvation, of the first four games played on the site, I think three of them were broken by mass claims, so a lot of the game designers who were present at the time (Az included) can be expected to make a special effort to avoid that. Since then, the majority of the games the mafia have won on this site have been due to badly-planned schemes to soft claim or otherwise give away seemingly valueless information.
Aside from fishing, which is potentially excusable from both AS and HR (but more from HR, who, AFAIK, hasn't ever actually played a game on this site), AS is also guilty of several other scummy tells that are hareder to explain away, such as implying knowledge that hasn't been proven (such as about the voteblock), and blindly agreeing with other players without sufficiently giving reasoning.
Mafia MVP BM Mafia
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The point of a soft claim in which each of us claims Sin City Character vs. Non-Sin City vs. nameless would be to lock scum into whatever they're going to claim right now. Obviously, most would probably claim nameless character or Non-Sin City. But at least they're locked into that before they start finding out what names are in the game. Meanwhile, they can't come to any definite conclusions as to what our roles are.
Yes, mods have made sure that a mass claim wouldn't break the game, but they've taken precautions in the other direction as well. In LotR, there was a nameless character who was the back-up cop, whereas there were named roles with no abilities at all. Since we have a nameless role with a powerful ability, I think it is pretty safe to say that there will be named roles with much less power. Otherwise, the majority of us would have power roles.
[The Family]
4th place at CCC&G Pro Tour
Chances of bad hands (<2 or >4 land):
21: 28.9%
22: 27.5%
23: 26.3%
24: 25.5%
25: 25.1%
26: 25.3%
Actually, from what we have seen so far, the number on non Sin City "Characters" appears quite high. Neither of our dead fellows, not Highroller, not Raf (I'm actually not sure about that one without re-checking), not Hawkeye7 either, I don't think.
I'm still actually happy with the Puzzle vote. No one has claimed responsibility for it, so it seems like it's either a mafia pacifist (bizarre, but possible), a cult (less likely in my opinion), or he's lying.
So, I guess my question is why not? And don't say because it could help the mafia -_-.
4th place at CCC&G Pro Tour
Chances of bad hands (<2 or >4 land):
21: 28.9%
22: 27.5%
23: 26.3%
24: 25.5%
25: 25.1%
26: 25.3%
This is just too freaky of a coincidence. You are actually saying you saw that post in the sign-up thread and thought it might work?. Why on earth would you think this?
It's not actually scummy for you to have special knowledge, nor is voting for Az having said knowledge. It's just unbelievable. So your explanation is the thing that's somewhat scummy now.
Of course, now I'm worried about some other kind of posting/role restriction which means you get mod-killed if you say too much. Can you say if you don't have such a restriction, just to clear that up.
Aurorasparrow: what do you mean, don't say because it might help the mafia? Isn't that the reason we don't do mass roll claims in every game day one?
I haven't been exactly on the ball this game yet, but you need to explain again why you think it would be helpful, not just why you think it wouldn't actually hurt much. Would it restrict mafia claiming? Well, maybe? We don't really know. But as I said, I'd be surprised if the mafia was just "Evil" people from Sin City. A Mod. as devious as Az. would never do something so basic.
In fact, I fear the depths to which he has probably gone to ensure that we will have no clue what's going on in this game for quite a while.
That said, I would participate in a full and complete mass role-claim right now, just because I am curious to know what the devil's going on. Though, as I said, I suspect it won't help us, and might put the town in quite a hole day one.
No. We don't know Marv or Hartigan are in the game. Even if we did, we don't know what percentage of the towns are not from Sin City. Even if it were a substantial amount, we don't know what percentage of the towns from Sin City are characters versus generic roles. The Sin City/Not from Sin City claim in itself doesn't point to it.
I just think this is notable because the mod OMGUS voted me. I find that funny.
Oh, someone I think mentioned something that I should take seriously. No, Azrael is not voting me because of a restriction with my role. As I stated before, I have no role restrictions.
Which necessitates lying to the town? LJustus, don't act like it's a matter of opinion. You said I advocated a mass claim. I didn't. That means that you lied specifically to get other people to vote for me.
If you honestly think I'm asking too much, fine. But acknowledge that this is NOT what you said. You specifically said "mass claim", which the information I asked for could not, except for the most remote stretches of imagination, be. Thus, YOU LIED TO THE TOWN. Vote stands.
Regarding Azrael:
Azrael is not town. He knows every malevolent role. Because of this, power would be about as unbalanced as it ever could be if Azrael were town. Therefore, armlx and SorryGuy are acting at a level of stupidity far beyond normal mental retardation for thinking this is the case. FOS: SorryGuy and armlx, to the point of voting for either of you.
Azrael cannot be mafia. He knows every information role. Because of this, power would be about as unbalanced as it ever could be if Azrael were mafia.
Azrael MUST be a member of a third party whose win condition is not in line with either.
The problem with this is twofold:
1. How does Azrael win the game?
2. What would have happened if no one had voted Azrael?
Now, we have no way of knowing this for sure, except if we lynch Azrael, which I don't think we should do today.
However, I believe this means that we should ignore Azrael. I remember when I was an evil mod for Odyssey block Mafia, if anyone ever played on News and might remember this, I actively tried to screw with people's minds by voting and switching votes. To overanalyze what Azrael does is, I think, exactly what we should not do, and probably what he wants.
Axel, I want you to re-read this quote of yours and realize how silly it is. There is nothing the least bit freaky about what I said, and your italics (changed to bold by me) don't make it any freakier.
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I'm not really comfortable with the Highroller bandwagon. Really, the only point against him is that he's advocating a partial mass claim, which I disagree with but I can understand his point of view.
I don't think learning HR's alignment would tell us that much about Az either. The two most likely explanations for is vote are:
a) he's playing a neutral role, and/or
b) his vote is automatically triggered by something that happened in the game.
In either case, lynching HR is not likely to give us much info.
I also don't like the way armlx and Sorryguy are kind of tag-teaming on this issue. They put two votes on him within 10 minutes of each other, and then both advocated his lynch in subsequent posts. FOS: armlx and SorryGuy.
You sure about that? Bet you didn't think he could vote, either, until he did it.
Total agreement. Even before the game started, I figured we could vote the mod