The only reason I'm hesitant about Barbarian Ring is that it forces me/us into 4 colors. I already run Cabal Pit, and while it doesn't take out Jace, it has been extremely helpful (thanks, Koopa) in dealing with things like Meddling Mage. I've even gotten rid of Batterskull that way: attack into Batterskull with Factory, Pit Batterskull, Loam both back.
Now you can do one of two options with Smokestack.
1. Just play Smokestack and use LftL+ Manabond/Exploration to outrace the smokestack and make your opponent lose 2-3 perms a turn.
2. Play Smokestack + Dial and just let it add up while you don't take a turn.
I would only play Smokestack if you are running Tabernacle/Ghostly Prison type effects.
Now you can do one of two options with Smokestack.
1. Just play Smokestack and use LftL+ Manabond/Exploration to outrace the smokestack and make your opponent lose 2-3 perms a turn.
2. Play Smokestack + Dial and just let it add up while you don't take a turn.
I would only play Smokestack if you are running Tabernacle/Ghostly Prison type effects.
I've played with it out of the board (it's a great leyline breaker) but I was curious as to the more subtle interactions, things to play around, etc. Do you typically set it at 1 and leave it there, or crank it up quicker to close out their whole board before recurring it and setting it at 1, etc.
I've been testing both with and without Misstep, and I'm having a really tough time deciding which is the right choice.
Pros of Misstep:
-stops Exploration/Manabond from getting countered T1
-can be cast for free
-can be an ok topdeck late game (I had one in hand to counter an StP targeted at my Tar Pit - would have lost had I not countered it)
-can stop threats early (ie, T1 Hierarch or Lackey if you don't have a Maze or something handy)
-improves Storm matchup
Cons of Misstep:
-completely reactive as opposed to proactive
-can be a dead card in many matchups
-100% useless in the graveyard
-if it's not in the opening hand, can be just awful
-forces a lower Intuition/Manabond count
The biggest reason not to run Misstep, imo, is that there are more important non-land cards we need to be playing (unless you completely change the deck's game plan, like the one posted by Raggedjoe a few posts up...). The fact of the matter is, we are more than capable of winning without Exploration/Manabond out early.
In the tourney I played last thursday, for instance, the matches I lost were Burn (due to bad draws and him lucksacking three Price of Progress in game two) and ANT (due to not caring enough about the storm matchup to even try a sideboard strategy against them). In the other three rounds, two decks had missteps T1 or 2 for my enchantments in at least one game; I won both of those rounds.
In other news, I'm thinking of trying out Batterskull as my artifact win-con tomorrow. The way I see it:
!. We can produce enough mana by turn 3 to cast it, off Exploration and Diamonds. I've seen the power of dropping a Batterskull into play turn three or four from across the table. It's difficult to deal with to say the least.
2. We can produce enough mana late game to use it as a strong closer. It costs much less than Mindslaver lock if you just play it and attack, even if you have to bounce it that turn. You need 8 mana to activate Tar-pit and equip it, and 2 more plus one from Tar-pit, if they try to kill Batterskull, to bounce it. That's one less mana than Mindslaver lock requires (with Ruins recursion).
3. It gives us some added leeway against the superfast aggro matchups and Burn, so we can afford to take a few more damage to the face and have a way to re-establish without having to sacrifice all our mana sources.
4. It's immune to Swords and Path, which are the only reason I'd personally consider playing Mindslaver or Smokestack as a win-con.
5. The most appealing thing to me is that it's a way to actually win the game against stubborn players, of which there are may in my meta. Mindslaver and Smokestack don't actually ~win~ you the game, they just put your opponent in a position where they should scoop. Some just sit there and dig for what they think is an answer. I've wanted such a tool especially in game two, when you need to close out early enough to have time to play game 3.
Seeing as there was so little conversation about it here before, I thought I'd bring it up again for consideration. I'll post my thoughts on it after the tourney tomorrow.
I wasn't able to come to any conclusions on Batterskull tonight. We had a really weak showing, and only half of the normal people showed up, so there was only three rounds. My matchups were pauper-storm/TES hybrid (or so he said), Infect Stompy, and Rock Depths; I won all three rounds, but Batterskull wasn't necessary or pivotal in any of them. Any win-con would have sufficed.
@Malacoda: My meta is usually just like yours, so let me know how Batterskull tests for you.
Here's my list for comparison.
MD Trinisphere actually could be interesting. Slows down removal, slows down Stoneblade, slows down Zoo/Goblins....
EDIT: I had a couple more thoughts. I'm almost certainly dropping Misstep simply because it is almost 100% useless if it's not in the opening hand and rarely makes or breaks the game. In its stead, I'm going +1 Intuition and +1 Manabond, up to full sets, and then I think that my last slot is going to be a maindecked Zuran Orb simply because I might need the lifegain a bit when I'm using the shocklands, and I've felt the urge to tutor for it on occasion. That slot is still up for grabs though, and could be anything from a Burgeoning to a Smokestack to a Batterskull to a Trinisphere to whatever. Batterskull, however, has proved somewhat lackluster in testing: it's just another wincon that requires a combat step (thanks to whoever pointed that out last time I tried to put Worm Harvest in my list), albeit a faster one, but once we're beating down it's mostly time for them to scoop anyways. It's almost never a race.
I was also considering trying to work in Barbarian Ring (again) by going -1 Creeping Tar Pit, -1 Cabal Pit, +1 Stomping Ground, +1 Barbarian Ring. I'm aware that this impedes consistency, but since Stomping Ground produces green, it shouldn't be too bad. I'm a little hesitant about dropping 2 black sources thanks to the 4 Dark Confidant sideboard plan, but I currently have 12 ways to get black sources (4 fetches, 1 Bayou, 1 Bojuka Bog, 1 Tar Pit, 1 Cabal Pit, 4 Mox Diamond). Working in Barbarian Ring would only cut that back to 10, and would also help in Engineered Explosives flexibility.
But I'll just need to keep testing. My monthly tournament is on August 28th, the last day I'm home before I go to college. I want it to be a good one.
@Kevin:
How has the nearly-Highlander sideboard worked out for you? O-Stone seems painfully slow, even with the amount of mana we run, but I guess you really only need to put 0-2 fate counters on permanents before you pop it. Why Extraction over Extirpate? You run enough black, and if your meta is like mine, then having an uncounterable graveyard answer seems quite strong. And you've already got a lot of graveyard hate in the 2 Crypts and Bog, so I would hesitate adding 2 non-artifact, non-tutorable, and above all, nonland answers to something you already seem to be doing pretty well with. How often do you see Dark Confidant? I think for the matches he's good in (traditional Landstill, etc) he's amazing, and you really want to see him as soon as possible, and maybe even in multiples. I question having just 1 answer to artifacts (Null Rod) and no answers to enchantments, since you can't hit things like Leyline of the Void or Wheel of Sun and Moon very easily or maybe even at all. Null Rod does seem good vs. Storm, but not as only a 1-of. My sideboard is the same as the one two posts above, but I took out the Misstep for a second Trinisphere because I think it's that good in a fair amount of matchups (anything Affinity/Goblins/cheapy aggro based, anything combo, slows down things like Brainstorm and Stoneforge in control). If we can drop it Turn 1 or Turn 2 we've got a huge head start.
The biggest reason not to run Misstep, imo, is that there are more important non-land cards we need to be playing (unless you completely change the deck's game plan, like the one posted by Raggedjoe a few posts up...). The fact of the matter is, we are more than capable of winning without Exploration/Manabond out early.
In the tourney I played last thursday, for instance, the matches I lost were Burn (due to bad draws and him lucksacking three Price of Progress in game two) and ANT (due to not caring enough about the storm matchup to even try a sideboard strategy against them). In the other three rounds, two decks had missteps T1 or 2 for my enchantments in at least one game; I won both of those rounds.
In other news, I'm thinking of trying out Batterskull as my artifact win-con tomorrow. The way I see it:
!. We can produce enough mana by turn 3 to cast it, off Exploration and Diamonds. I've seen the power of dropping a Batterskull into play turn three or four from across the table. It's difficult to deal with to say the least.
2. We can produce enough mana late game to use it as a strong closer. It costs much less than Mindslaver lock if you just play it and attack, even if you have to bounce it that turn. You need 8 mana to activate Tar-pit and equip it, and 2 more plus one from Tar-pit, if they try to kill Batterskull, to bounce it. That's one less mana than Mindslaver lock requires (with Ruins recursion).
3. It gives us some added leeway against the superfast aggro matchups and Burn, so we can afford to take a few more damage to the face and have a way to re-establish without having to sacrifice all our mana sources.
4. It's immune to Swords and Path, which are the only reason I'd personally consider playing Mindslaver or Smokestack as a win-con.
5. The most appealing thing to me is that it's a way to actually win the game against stubborn players, of which there are may in my meta. Mindslaver and Smokestack don't actually ~win~ you the game, they just put your opponent in a position where they should scoop. Some just sit there and dig for what they think is an answer. I've wanted such a tool especially in game two, when you need to close out early enough to have time to play game 3.
Seeing as there was so little conversation about it here before, I thought I'd bring it up again for consideration. I'll post my thoughts on it after the tourney tomorrow.
They literally can't win through Mindslaver lock, and it doesn't take long to deck them with it. Additionally, you have Tarpit.
The point of mindslaver lock is that it doesn't require the combat step, which means you can ignore things like Moat, your own Ensnaring Bridge, etc.
I played Lands during both prelims and a Win a Box, got the box but did terrible in the prelims so I audibled to Team America and despite having never played the deck before or ever cast a force of will prior, Went 4-2 losing both my matches 1-2 so I'm done with Lands for a while.
I was running some Jaces in the main and they were definitely interesting, also Cabal Pit is clutch in Lands right now, I used it all the time.
My spells were:
4x Loam
4x Exploration
3x Manabond
2x Intuition
3x Jace (was 3 Int, 2 Jace, swapped it to no real improvement)
1x EB
1x Mindslaver
1x Crucible
1x Engineered Explosives
4x Mox Diamond
Lands will return some day but right now Aggro loam is the place to be if you want to be playing a Loam deck, and the current Lands lists need to be scorched to the ground and rebuilt conceptually, tweaking existing lists doesn't seem like it's going to get anywhere.
I think a creature-centric build ala Adam Cai's KotR list could be useful, with an Azusa and E. Witness and possibly an Oracle of Mul Daya, but for now I'm hanging up the deck.
Sorry to see you go, Sigma. I still think Lands is viable.
What do you guys think of Trinisphere main? It really affects the deck very little and destroys a ton of other decks, but if I run it maindeck, I kind of have to run more than one because I would really want to see it earlier rather than later, unlike Mindslaver/Smokestack which are the higher-cost artifacts that act as finishers rather than deterrents. And, unlike Chalice of the Void and Engineered Explosives, it costs 3 rather than 0 so it's not tutorable by Tolaria West. I am currently running 2 copies sideboard, and in order to run more than one copy maindeck I'd kind of have to rearrange the whole thing. My deck right now has 2 slots that I'm kind of being flexible with, so I'm just kind of considering a lot of things. On the "idea block" right now for those two slots:
Burgeoning - Manabond/Exploration #9 Mindslaver - It's a finisher that doesn't require a combat step, but it's mana-intensive. Smokestack - It's another combat-less finisher, but it can be played around a little more than the Mindslaver lock Batterskull - weird, yes, but it resists all exile spells and can just be recurred with Academy Ruins. I probably won't run it since I already have 1 Creeping Tar Pit and 4 Mishra's Factory, but it could be ok against aggro. Trinisphere - mentioned above. Ensnaring Bridge - It's currently sideboarded. I like having it, but I really don't like how it isn't tutorable and is unprofitable when run as anything more than a 1-of because multiples are redundant. I should be ok against aggro with Tabernacle, 3 Maze, 4 Factory, and Chalice/Sphere from the side, so I might drop Bridge entirely. Zuran Orb - This is going to be maindecked if I'm still using shocks. I like the idea of having a tutorable form of repeatable lifegain, so it could be good even without shocks against aggro. Regardless, it's somewhere in my 75. Crucible of Worlds - It's currently sideboarded, but it's kind of good against everything and nothing. It's obviously somewhere in the 75, but having it main would be pretty self-explanatory anyways.
Thanks so much for your guys' input. I just realized that making sideboarding plans for Lands is also a really hard part about playing the deck. >.<
What I really want to use as a win-con is Seismic Assault. We can definitely make the mana for it later in the game, and we can definitely fuel it with plenty of lands.
Problem is, there's no efficient way to get it back if it's dredged or countered. Running two isn't gonna be consistent enough when you can't Intuition for it (except something like 2x Noxious Revival +1x Seismic, but that requires too many slots), and three or four seems like wasting slots...
Anyway, Batterskull has turned out to be very similar to Mindslaver as a win-con in many respects, as pointed out in above posts. I've also found that if I have it in my hand early, I tend to want to play it right away, which is bad, since we need to be spending the early turns establishing control, not playing a lone creature.
I'm sticking with this deck for the forseeable future. I'm not that competitive a player anyway, and I love piloting the deck, even when I'm losing. There may even be some useful goodies in Innistrad...
What I really want to use as a win-con is Seismic Assault. We can definitely make the mana for it later in the game, and we can definitely fuel it with plenty of lands.
Problem is, there's no efficient way to get it back if it's dredged or countered. Running two isn't gonna be consistent enough when you can't Intuition for it (except something like 2x Noxious Revival +1x Seismic, but that requires too many slots), and three or four seems like wasting slots...
Anyway, Batterskull has turned out to be very similar to Mindslaver as a win-con in many respects, as pointed out in above posts. I've also found that if I have it in my hand early, I tend to want to play it right away, which is bad, since we need to be spending the early turns establishing control, not playing a lone creature.
I'm sticking with this deck for the forseeable future. I'm not that competitive a player anyway, and I love piloting the deck, even when I'm losing. There may even be some useful goodies in Innistrad...
Apparently there's a land that has a "Counter target spell" ability. That seems like something that would DEFINITELY shore up the deck, though I might be a little hasty in assuming that it will be playable.
Yeah, Batterskull's done. It's pretty much as mana intensive as Mindslaver and it's a more easily disrupted wincon.
Honestly, if you want to play Seismic Assault, go with Aggro Loam. A triple red enchantment has no place in this deck right now. I guess I could see a RUG build instead of a BUG build (Barbarian Ring, no Confidants from the side, etc), but I don't know.
Apparently there's a land that has a "Counter target spell" ability. That seems like something that would DEFINITELY shore up the deck, though I might be a little hasty in assuming that it will be playable.
Yeah, Batterskull's done. It's pretty much as mana intensive as Mindslaver and it's a more easily disrupted wincon.
Honestly, if you want to play Seismic Assault, go with Aggro Loam. A triple red enchantment has no place in this deck right now. I guess I could see a RUG build instead of a BUG build (Barbarian Ring, no Confidants from the side, etc), but I don't know.
I did play Aggro Loam for most of this summer, but I just don't enjoy playing that deck as much as this one. And Seismic is most definitely the MVP of that deck. If it hits the table and you have Loam, the game is won.
It's sort of my fantasy Lands deck right now, but when and if they print an Academy Ruins for enchantments I'm definitely going to be playing RUG (or RUGw as the case may be, depending of the cost of the land's ability) with Seismic and Sylvan Library as one-ofs.
It really has no basis in reality at the moment, so I won't dwell on it much more here; I'm just hoping they get around to printing it soon...
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What I really want to use as a win-con is Seismic Assault. We can definitely make the mana for it later in the game, and we can definitely fuel it with plenty of lands.
Problem is, there's no efficient way to get it back if it's dredged or countered.
Intuition for Assault, Eternal Witness, Volrath's Stronghold. It still won't be good enough though.
Intuition for Assault, Eternal Witness, Volrath's Stronghold. It still won't be good enough though.
Yeah, I considered and quickly rejected that idea... It doesn't quite qualify as efficient, and certainly not enough so to be competitive. Plus it opens you up to Swords.
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Yeah, I considered and quickly rejected that idea... It doesn't quite qualify as efficient, and certainly not enough so to be competitive. Plus it opens you up to Swords.
As in play Witness, sac to Tower, put on top with Stronghold? Interesting, but still doesn't fix the efficiency issue, since you've got to play three cards and pay 1GG in order to achieve for the enchantment what Academy Ruins does for artifacts for 1U...
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I swear by my life and my love of it that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine.
As in play Witness, sac to Tower, put on top with Stronghold? Interesting, but still doesn't fix the efficiency issue, since you've got to play three cards and pay 1GG in order to achieve for the enchantment what Academy Ruins does for artifacts for 1U...
Pretty sure this isn't the thread for masturbatory create-a-card Sanctum Ruins, however, so mchainmail's plan actually lets you accomplish your (admittedly inefficient) plan.
Does anyone have any creature-based lists other than Adam Cai's SCGOpen list with Crops from pre-mental misstep era Legacy?
I think I saw a RUG one that ran the Gamble/Burning Wish/Devastating Dreams package with a few Terravores a while back, but I don't recall what the context was (i.e., if the deck had done well in the slightest).
Pretty sure this isn't the thread for masturbatory create-a-card Sanctum Ruins, however, so mchainmail's plan actually lets you accomplish your (admittedly inefficient) plan.
I am fully aware of that, and as I said in my post above, I was gonna leave it alone. So please don't chastise me for responding to his responses.
I'm still pretty new to some legacy decks. Like this one. I'm testing a Deadguy Ale deck (which I love to play), and had two matchups against 'Lands'. I'm not really sure how to beat this deck. It keeps recurring the lands that are most hateful against my deck obviously. What can I do against it, other than graveyard hate? If someone plays a turn 1 tropical island, explore and The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, I'm pretty much done for. My discard is not that usefull since the deck discards its lands or life from the lome, dredges it and gets the lands back in their hand etc. Then I got a turn two rashaden port, which shuts me pretty much all the way down. And myeh you can understand it goes pretty much downhill from there. How can I handle that first game in a match against this deck? Or is my only chance to win games 2 and 3 by using graveyard hate?
One of the land decks was even pretty resistant vs graveyard hate, since it just kept filling its graveyard in a couple of turns (cycling/dredge). I'm aware that my deadguy Ale build is not 100% well build yet, but especially The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale is really killing. And if that card hits the board on turn one, I have to wait about 4 turns (rashaden port) before I can vindicate it, and myeh, then I'm already dragged in too much.
I'm still pretty new to some legacy decks. Like this one. I'm testing a Deadguy Ale deck (which I love to play), and had two matchups against 'Lands'. I'm not really sure how to beat this deck. It keeps recurring the lands that are most hateful against my deck obviously. What can I do against it, other than graveyard hate? If someone plays a turn 1 tropical island, explore and The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, I'm pretty much done for. My discard is not that usefull since the deck discards its lands or life from the lome, dredges it and gets the lands back in their hand etc. Then I got a turn two rashaden port, which shuts me pretty much all the way down. And myeh you can understand it goes pretty much downhill from there. How can I handle that first game in a match against this deck? Or is my only chance to win games 2 and 3 by using graveyard hate?
One of the land decks was even pretty resistant vs graveyard hate, since it just kept filling its graveyard in a couple of turns (cycling/dredge). I'm aware that my deadguy Ale build is not 100% well build yet, but especially The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale is really killing. And if that card hits the board on turn one, I have to wait about 4 turns (rashaden port) before I can vindicate it, and myeh, then I'm already dragged in too much.
If you're running stoneforge, you could try a lightning grieves to get around maze of ith, As far as tabernacle goes, the best way to get rid of it is to sandbag a wasteland until you have a piece of yardhate, then you waste the tabernacle and get rid of it before they have a chance to loam/crucible it back. However, if I were you, I wouldn't expect to win this matchup too often. Lands's mana denial package is very good against you. If you play chrome mox/dark ritual, you can make mana in undisruptable spurts, but engineered explosives takes care of chrome. All in all, you need to have some sort of shroud and a quick clock to consistently get there against lands with a midrangey deck.
Extirpate their Loams. That's really a big problem for them. Leyline also works but sometimes they have Ray of Revelation or Krosan Grip to destroy it. Extirpate pretty much never fails in getting rid of the Loam. Their graveyard is not relevant when they don't have Loam. They can maybe get EE recursion going with Academy Ruins but that's pretty much it. Some Lands players have a Crucible of worlds in their sideboard to recover from Extirpate. If you manage to remove their Loams then you don't need to worry about Tabernacle. The deck still has Mazes, Ports and Wastelands so you need to be a bit careful.
But as a Lands player, I can tell you that it really hurts when your Loams get removed. Most of the time you don't get enough time to play Intuition for something like Academy Ruins, Crucible of Worlds and that new M12 land that returns artifacts. It takes too much time and isn't nearly as efficient as Life from the Loam.
Lands doesn't see a lot of play but if you want to beat it, Extirpate is one of those cards that's really a kick in the teeth.
But as a Lands player, I can tell you that it really hurts when your Loams get removed. Most of the time you don't get enough time to play Intuition for something like Academy Ruins, Crucible of Worlds and that new M12 land that returns artifacts.
the m12 land is terrible, in this case you would just intuition for tolaria west, tolaria west, crucible, and they either give you crucible or a card that finds academy ruins.
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Reinvos, it's making more sense. Thanks for that.
Lands WUBG
EDH:
Doran WBG
1. Just play Smokestack and use LftL+ Manabond/Exploration to outrace the smokestack and make your opponent lose 2-3 perms a turn.
2. Play Smokestack + Dial and just let it add up while you don't take a turn.
I would only play Smokestack if you are running Tabernacle/Ghostly Prison type effects.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=519290
I've played with it out of the board (it's a great leyline breaker) but I was curious as to the more subtle interactions, things to play around, etc. Do you typically set it at 1 and leave it there, or crank it up quicker to close out their whole board before recurring it and setting it at 1, etc.
Pros of Misstep:
-stops Exploration/Manabond from getting countered T1
-can be cast for free
-can be an ok topdeck late game (I had one in hand to counter an StP targeted at my Tar Pit - would have lost had I not countered it)
-can stop threats early (ie, T1 Hierarch or Lackey if you don't have a Maze or something handy)
-improves Storm matchup
Cons of Misstep:
-completely reactive as opposed to proactive
-can be a dead card in many matchups
-100% useless in the graveyard
-if it's not in the opening hand, can be just awful
-forces a lower Intuition/Manabond count
I just am not sure yet. What do you guys think?
Lands WUBG
EDH:
Doran WBG
In the tourney I played last thursday, for instance, the matches I lost were Burn (due to bad draws and him lucksacking three Price of Progress in game two) and ANT (due to not caring enough about the storm matchup to even try a sideboard strategy against them). In the other three rounds, two decks had missteps T1 or 2 for my enchantments in at least one game; I won both of those rounds.
In other news, I'm thinking of trying out Batterskull as my artifact win-con tomorrow. The way I see it:
!. We can produce enough mana by turn 3 to cast it, off Exploration and Diamonds. I've seen the power of dropping a Batterskull into play turn three or four from across the table. It's difficult to deal with to say the least.
2. We can produce enough mana late game to use it as a strong closer. It costs much less than Mindslaver lock if you just play it and attack, even if you have to bounce it that turn. You need 8 mana to activate Tar-pit and equip it, and 2 more plus one from Tar-pit, if they try to kill Batterskull, to bounce it. That's one less mana than Mindslaver lock requires (with Ruins recursion).
3. It gives us some added leeway against the superfast aggro matchups and Burn, so we can afford to take a few more damage to the face and have a way to re-establish without having to sacrifice all our mana sources.
4. It's immune to Swords and Path, which are the only reason I'd personally consider playing Mindslaver or Smokestack as a win-con.
5. The most appealing thing to me is that it's a way to actually win the game against stubborn players, of which there are may in my meta. Mindslaver and Smokestack don't actually ~win~ you the game, they just put your opponent in a position where they should scoop. Some just sit there and dig for what they think is an answer. I've wanted such a tool especially in game two, when you need to close out early enough to have time to play game 3.
Seeing as there was so little conversation about it here before, I thought I'd bring it up again for consideration. I'll post my thoughts on it after the tourney tomorrow.
I am John Galt.
4x Exploration
4x Life from the Loam
4x Mox Diamond
3x Enlightened Tutor
2x Manabond
1x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Ensnaring Bridge
1x Smokestack
1x Crucible of Worlds
1x Zuran Orb
1x Cursed Totem
Lands (37)
4x Rishadan Port
4x Wasteland
3x Tropical Island
3x Maze of Ith
3x Tolaria West
2x Tranquil Thicket
2x Mishra's Factory
2x Verdant Catacombs
1x Misty Rainforest
1x Windswept Heath
1x Wooded Foothills
1x Horizon Canopy
1x Academy Ruins
1x Bayou
1x Creeping Tar Pit
1x Savannah
1x Forest
1x Ghost Quarter
1x Glacial Chasm
1x Karakas
1x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4x Dark Confidant
1x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Enlightened Tutor
1x Oblivion Stone
1x Tormod's Crypt
1x Chalice of the Void
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Circle of Protection: Red
1x Phyrexian Revoker
1x Pithing Needle
1x Sylvok Replica
Lands WUBG
EDH:
Doran WBG
I wasn't able to come to any conclusions on Batterskull tonight. We had a really weak showing, and only half of the normal people showed up, so there was only three rounds. My matchups were pauper-storm/TES hybrid (or so he said), Infect Stompy, and Rock Depths; I won all three rounds, but Batterskull wasn't necessary or pivotal in any of them. Any win-con would have sufficed.
@Malacoda: My meta is usually just like yours, so let me know how Batterskull tests for you.
Here's my list for comparison.
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Batterskull
1x Ensnaring Bridge
4x Mox Diamond
1x Sylvan Library (the in-testing 61st card)
4x Exploration
3x Manabond
3x Intuition
2x Entomb
4x Life from the Loam
Lands:
1x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1x Glacial Chasm
3x Maze of Ith
1x Creeping Tar-pit
3x Tropical Island
2x Bayou
2x Misty Rainforest
1x Verdant Catacombs
1x Wooded Foothills
1x Windswept Heath
3x Tolaria West
1x Cabal Pit
1x Bojuka Bog
3x Tranquil Thicket
1x Forest
4x Wasteland
2x Ghost Quarter
4x Rishadan Port
1x Academy Ruins
1x Riftstone Portal
2x Dark Confidant
1x Chalice of the Void
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Smokestack
1x Oblivion Stone
1x Crucible of Worlds
1x Null Rod
1x Zuran Orb
2x Tormod's Crypt
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Maze of Ith
1x Karakas
I am John Galt.
EDIT: I had a couple more thoughts. I'm almost certainly dropping Misstep simply because it is almost 100% useless if it's not in the opening hand and rarely makes or breaks the game. In its stead, I'm going +1 Intuition and +1 Manabond, up to full sets, and then I think that my last slot is going to be a maindecked Zuran Orb simply because I might need the lifegain a bit when I'm using the shocklands, and I've felt the urge to tutor for it on occasion. That slot is still up for grabs though, and could be anything from a Burgeoning to a Smokestack to a Batterskull to a Trinisphere to whatever. Batterskull, however, has proved somewhat lackluster in testing: it's just another wincon that requires a combat step (thanks to whoever pointed that out last time I tried to put Worm Harvest in my list), albeit a faster one, but once we're beating down it's mostly time for them to scoop anyways. It's almost never a race.
I was also considering trying to work in Barbarian Ring (again) by going -1 Creeping Tar Pit, -1 Cabal Pit, +1 Stomping Ground, +1 Barbarian Ring. I'm aware that this impedes consistency, but since Stomping Ground produces green, it shouldn't be too bad. I'm a little hesitant about dropping 2 black sources thanks to the 4 Dark Confidant sideboard plan, but I currently have 12 ways to get black sources (4 fetches, 1 Bayou, 1 Bojuka Bog, 1 Tar Pit, 1 Cabal Pit, 4 Mox Diamond). Working in Barbarian Ring would only cut that back to 10, and would also help in Engineered Explosives flexibility.
But I'll just need to keep testing. My monthly tournament is on August 28th, the last day I'm home before I go to college. I want it to be a good one.
@Kevin:
How has the nearly-Highlander sideboard worked out for you? O-Stone seems painfully slow, even with the amount of mana we run, but I guess you really only need to put 0-2 fate counters on permanents before you pop it. Why Extraction over Extirpate? You run enough black, and if your meta is like mine, then having an uncounterable graveyard answer seems quite strong. And you've already got a lot of graveyard hate in the 2 Crypts and Bog, so I would hesitate adding 2 non-artifact, non-tutorable, and above all, nonland answers to something you already seem to be doing pretty well with. How often do you see Dark Confidant? I think for the matches he's good in (traditional Landstill, etc) he's amazing, and you really want to see him as soon as possible, and maybe even in multiples. I question having just 1 answer to artifacts (Null Rod) and no answers to enchantments, since you can't hit things like Leyline of the Void or Wheel of Sun and Moon very easily or maybe even at all. Null Rod does seem good vs. Storm, but not as only a 1-of. My sideboard is the same as the one two posts above, but I took out the Misstep for a second Trinisphere because I think it's that good in a fair amount of matchups (anything Affinity/Goblins/cheapy aggro based, anything combo, slows down things like Brainstorm and Stoneforge in control). If we can drop it Turn 1 or Turn 2 we've got a huge head start.
Lands WUBG
EDH:
Doran WBG
They literally can't win through Mindslaver lock, and it doesn't take long to deck them with it. Additionally, you have Tarpit.
The point of mindslaver lock is that it doesn't require the combat step, which means you can ignore things like Moat, your own Ensnaring Bridge, etc.
I played Lands during both prelims and a Win a Box, got the box but did terrible in the prelims so I audibled to Team America and despite having never played the deck before or ever cast a force of will prior, Went 4-2 losing both my matches 1-2 so I'm done with Lands for a while.
I was running some Jaces in the main and they were definitely interesting, also Cabal Pit is clutch in Lands right now, I used it all the time.
My spells were:
4x Loam
4x Exploration
3x Manabond
2x Intuition
3x Jace (was 3 Int, 2 Jace, swapped it to no real improvement)
1x EB
1x Mindslaver
1x Crucible
1x Engineered Explosives
4x Mox Diamond
Lands will return some day but right now Aggro loam is the place to be if you want to be playing a Loam deck, and the current Lands lists need to be scorched to the ground and rebuilt conceptually, tweaking existing lists doesn't seem like it's going to get anywhere.
I think a creature-centric build ala Adam Cai's KotR list could be useful, with an Azusa and E. Witness and possibly an Oracle of Mul Daya, but for now I'm hanging up the deck.
What do you guys think of Trinisphere main? It really affects the deck very little and destroys a ton of other decks, but if I run it maindeck, I kind of have to run more than one because I would really want to see it earlier rather than later, unlike Mindslaver/Smokestack which are the higher-cost artifacts that act as finishers rather than deterrents. And, unlike Chalice of the Void and Engineered Explosives, it costs 3 rather than 0 so it's not tutorable by Tolaria West. I am currently running 2 copies sideboard, and in order to run more than one copy maindeck I'd kind of have to rearrange the whole thing. My deck right now has 2 slots that I'm kind of being flexible with, so I'm just kind of considering a lot of things. On the "idea block" right now for those two slots:
Burgeoning - Manabond/Exploration #9
Mindslaver - It's a finisher that doesn't require a combat step, but it's mana-intensive.
Smokestack - It's another combat-less finisher, but it can be played around a little more than the Mindslaver lock
Batterskull - weird, yes, but it resists all exile spells and can just be recurred with Academy Ruins. I probably won't run it since I already have 1 Creeping Tar Pit and 4 Mishra's Factory, but it could be ok against aggro.
Trinisphere - mentioned above.
Ensnaring Bridge - It's currently sideboarded. I like having it, but I really don't like how it isn't tutorable and is unprofitable when run as anything more than a 1-of because multiples are redundant. I should be ok against aggro with Tabernacle, 3 Maze, 4 Factory, and Chalice/Sphere from the side, so I might drop Bridge entirely.
Zuran Orb - This is going to be maindecked if I'm still using shocks. I like the idea of having a tutorable form of repeatable lifegain, so it could be good even without shocks against aggro. Regardless, it's somewhere in my 75.
Crucible of Worlds - It's currently sideboarded, but it's kind of good against everything and nothing. It's obviously somewhere in the 75, but having it main would be pretty self-explanatory anyways.
Thanks so much for your guys' input. I just realized that making sideboarding plans for Lands is also a really hard part about playing the deck. >.<
Lands WUBG
EDH:
Doran WBG
Problem is, there's no efficient way to get it back if it's dredged or countered. Running two isn't gonna be consistent enough when you can't Intuition for it (except something like 2x Noxious Revival +1x Seismic, but that requires too many slots), and three or four seems like wasting slots...
Anyway, Batterskull has turned out to be very similar to Mindslaver as a win-con in many respects, as pointed out in above posts. I've also found that if I have it in my hand early, I tend to want to play it right away, which is bad, since we need to be spending the early turns establishing control, not playing a lone creature.
I'm sticking with this deck for the forseeable future. I'm not that competitive a player anyway, and I love piloting the deck, even when I'm losing. There may even be some useful goodies in Innistrad...
I am John Galt.
Apparently there's a land that has a "Counter target spell" ability. That seems like something that would DEFINITELY shore up the deck, though I might be a little hasty in assuming that it will be playable.
Yeah, Batterskull's done. It's pretty much as mana intensive as Mindslaver and it's a more easily disrupted wincon.
Honestly, if you want to play Seismic Assault, go with Aggro Loam. A triple red enchantment has no place in this deck right now. I guess I could see a RUG build instead of a BUG build (Barbarian Ring, no Confidants from the side, etc), but I don't know.
Lands WUBG
EDH:
Doran WBG
I did play Aggro Loam for most of this summer, but I just don't enjoy playing that deck as much as this one. And Seismic is most definitely the MVP of that deck. If it hits the table and you have Loam, the game is won.
It's sort of my fantasy Lands deck right now, but when and if they print an Academy Ruins for enchantments I'm definitely going to be playing RUG (or RUGw as the case may be, depending of the cost of the land's ability) with Seismic and Sylvan Library as one-ofs.
It really has no basis in reality at the moment, so I won't dwell on it much more here; I'm just hoping they get around to printing it soon...
I am John Galt.
Intuition for Assault, Eternal Witness, Volrath's Stronghold. It still won't be good enough though.
Yeah, I considered and quickly rejected that idea... It doesn't quite qualify as efficient, and certainly not enough so to be competitive. Plus it opens you up to Swords.
I am John Galt.
Phyrexian Tower?
As in play Witness, sac to Tower, put on top with Stronghold? Interesting, but still doesn't fix the efficiency issue, since you've got to play three cards and pay 1GG in order to achieve for the enchantment what Academy Ruins does for artifacts for 1U...
I am John Galt.
Pretty sure this isn't the thread for masturbatory create-a-card Sanctum Ruins, however, so mchainmail's plan actually lets you accomplish your (admittedly inefficient) plan.
Does anyone have any creature-based lists other than Adam Cai's SCGOpen list with Crops from pre-mental misstep era Legacy?
Lands WUBG
EDH:
Doran WBG
I am fully aware of that, and as I said in my post above, I was gonna leave it alone. So please don't chastise me for responding to his responses.
Here's a couple of lists from deckDB.com (not sure how similar they are):
http://www.deckdb.com/deck/3424/
http://www.deckdb.com/deck/5605/
And many others here:
http://www.deckdb.com/archetype/243/
I am John Galt.
One of the land decks was even pretty resistant vs graveyard hate, since it just kept filling its graveyard in a couple of turns (cycling/dredge). I'm aware that my deadguy Ale build is not 100% well build yet, but especially The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale is really killing. And if that card hits the board on turn one, I have to wait about 4 turns (rashaden port) before I can vindicate it, and myeh, then I'm already dragged in too much.
If you're running stoneforge, you could try a lightning grieves to get around maze of ith, As far as tabernacle goes, the best way to get rid of it is to sandbag a wasteland until you have a piece of yardhate, then you waste the tabernacle and get rid of it before they have a chance to loam/crucible it back. However, if I were you, I wouldn't expect to win this matchup too often. Lands's mana denial package is very good against you. If you play chrome mox/dark ritual, you can make mana in undisruptable spurts, but engineered explosives takes care of chrome. All in all, you need to have some sort of shroud and a quick clock to consistently get there against lands with a midrangey deck.
But as a Lands player, I can tell you that it really hurts when your Loams get removed. Most of the time you don't get enough time to play Intuition for something like Academy Ruins, Crucible of Worlds and that new M12 land that returns artifacts. It takes too much time and isn't nearly as efficient as Life from the Loam.
Lands doesn't see a lot of play but if you want to beat it, Extirpate is one of those cards that's really a kick in the teeth.
the m12 land is terrible, in this case you would just intuition for tolaria west, tolaria west, crucible, and they either give you crucible or a card that finds academy ruins.