It's not about what I believe, it's about what you may be. I don't believe you're mafia, but that's miles from knowing you're not mafia, and the risk of you being mafia outweighs the damage it causes if you're not in this case. But because I do believe it's more probable that you're telling the truth I'm not willing to lynch you, as in that case we're probably doing like the dumbest action ever.
And if you will be "Mason" then it does clear the other one by quite a bit, which does generate a nearly-confirmed townie in my mind.
This makes no sense to me. By your logic, as far as I’m concerned, we should vig every mason pair to confirm the other, they could be mafia after all. If you agree with that statement then fine, but I don't. If you disagree please explain to me what the diffrence in situation is.
I don't support the vigging right now. If they become suspicious through their voting and other discussion, or of course if one gets inspected and called out as a liar, we'll return to the issue.
If, as chamber suggests, we get "neutral: mason" from them, vigging still won't prove anything other than that aren't currently mafia. It won't prove their real win conditions since Az isn't giving those away for free. It's an unfortunately clever claim, but it could be true. Vigging is not required at this time.
As it stands, we have two potential townies who we know are linked. I don't like it that they claimed when neither was suspicious. If they do indeed win with the town they've just narrowed down the field for mafia looking for cop/doc roles, and they've drawn unnecessary discussion from the town to two townies. I have that against them, but it's not enough (I also don't like it that chamber intercepted my question to SG as to what SG thought of chamber's reasons for coming out, because it can be a sign of someone who doesn't trust their partner to say the right thing- which signals that someone's lying. Memo to chamber: I wanted his opinion on you, not your opinion on you.)
Oh, and unvote, vote Hawkeye. As previously discussed.
For cripes sake. No vigging! That's crazy. Why are people even talking about it.
I'm familiar with the game where the mafia claimed masons with each other early. The town won that game. If Chamber and SG are playing us, it will come out eventually. Let's not do the mafia work for them.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Okay, the way chamber came out with this was very pro-town. He mentioned the nuetral thing so we wouldn't assume that Puzzle didn't have the town win, even though he showed up as nuetral. So what, you guys think they're mafia that manipulated the town into drilling them about their roles? Why, as mafia, would chamber have come out with the nuetral thing in the first place? Their behaviour doesn't fit.
So to all you saying your "pro-vigging," let's get a bit more specific, eh? CF seems to believe them, yet still supports the vigging, and HR has avoided the issue of their behaviour completely. I mean seriously, what kind of sense does that make? So how about we have people actually stating whether they believe them or not rather then just saying their "pro-vigging?" I'm sure it will helpful for analysis later on.
I find it interesting that several people are simply stating "pro-vig" with no reason, yet everyone who says anti-vig actually gives some backing.
wait... whats the case against hawkeye? a lot of these attacks on people seem unfounded. azrael may be mixing truth and untruth, but we shouldn't simply rely on gut feelings for lynch targets.
I think pro-viggers are treating these masons as too much of a threat. realistically, what could they do to us? even if they are lying, how do they hurt us?
I'm familiar with the game where the mafia claimed masons with each other early. The town won that game. If Chamber and SG are playing us, it will come out eventually. Let's not do the mafia work for them.
If you and HR are referring to Super Mario RPG Mafia, the only reason the town caught the mason liars was because the structure of the game was such that there was no other possibility besides them being Mafia. HR was basically the only one who was skeptical of their claim throughout the game, and not until the endgame (where it became clear there was no other room for the Mafia) did the rest of the town also become skeptical. And it's pretty obvious this game doesn't have a structure which will make determining this pair's alignment so easily.
My primary concern, like C_F's, is that the masons will likely need to be verified at some time later in the game. Lynching is a poor way to verify them, as it carries high risk in the event that they're telling the truth. Investigating is also a possibility, but we can't guarantee it's perfect information (not to mention that an investigation could be better spent elsewhere). Thus, vigging is the safest and most reliable way to check them, and the longer we wait, the more likely we are to no longer have a vig.
That said, I don't believe we are at too much risk if we let them live on a little longer, but I don't advocate letting them go unchecked for too long. Remember that they are neutral, and as such, may have an anti-town win condition that we don't know about. We can't simply take their word without eventually having some kind of verification.
Remember that they are neutral, and as such, may have an anti-town win condition that we don't know about. We can't simply take their word without eventually having some kind of verification.
Quoted for truthery.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Albus Dumbledore, Harry Potter and the Sorceror's Stone
To the well organized mind, death is but the next great adventure.
Vote: JC. Not a cult recruit. btw, JC is the official shorthand for my name.
Sorryguy and chamber are more scummy than normal masons because:
1. They've claimed a deterrent to lynching them, which is a good thing for mafia to do.
2. chamber claimed without any provocation to prove... what? That Puzzle wasn't necessarily anti town? After he had lied to all of us?
So the worry is that sorryguy and chamber are mafia or otherwise allied anti-town.
But what's the need to vig one now? Yes, our vig could die, but remember that there's no drawback to lynching them if they actually are mafia. And if they are, we will probably catch on at some point. For now, let's keep our eye on them and just lynch whoever is scummiest.
Speaking of which...
Major FOS: Hawkeye. The "ability" being used on you makes absolutely no sense, and I'm starting to think it may be a ROLE restriction rather than the effect of an ability. There could be flavor reasons why your character must vote Raf at least once each day. Perhaps you thought you could gain more sympathy from the town by lying about it.
But a bigger tell is this:
Quote from Hawkeye7, #656 »
I’m also wondering if you are going to vote for yourself to prove you ain’t been recruited. You made a big show out of grillin Chamber and used it to justify voting for him instead of yourself.
This misses the point by so far that it looks like deliberate mudslinging. Obviously, a vote for chamber is as good as a vote for himself in proving he's not in the cult, if there is one.
Hawkeye has jumped to #1 scummy in my mind, with Aurorasparrow holding on at #2.
Can someone put together a comprehensive case on AS? It would help me weigh things to have all his scumminess laid out in a single post. I lack the time to do it myself right now, but I'll do it in a few days if it hasn't been done by then.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm a mathematics postdoc researching evolution and complex systems. Learn about these ideas here!
Unvote: Matjoeman that's been up there for a while.
I thought about this a lot, but whatever. If this is a bad play just remember I'm semi-new to mafia.
I am Hartigan, the cop. I did not write that message last night.
First of all I can get chamber's or SG's role info but it would cost me 2 of my night investigations so I'm not sure if it's worth it. Because every night I get a point, and I can at night spend a point to get someones alignment, or at day spend 2 points to get someones alignment/role name/abilities.
Second of all I know that 1. AS is town or godfather. 2. Az is scum. He was my better lynch target.
Basicaly we can either:
1. Vig now, possibly wasting a limited number of kills and killing a town. Gains one confirmed town or 2 dead mafias or a couple of neutrals who we have no idea about.
2. Vig later, possibly losing our vig beforehand. Same as one, but we have a chance to catch them in a scummy action and not have to waist resources.
3. I use my better investigation ability and we get a firm answer on scum vs. town for two people. I lose 2 of my investigations.
4. I use my normal investigation ability and them coming up neutral doesn't really tell us anything except the mafia may kill them for us.
And if I use my better investigation ability, we wouldn't know until day 4.
Uh...this probably wasn't the time, but I guess getting a scum is worth it. Kinda. I dunno, but Unvote, Vote Azreal
With the (presumably, for the moment) real cop in the open, the newspaper looks even less reliable. Matjoe might be insane, but that doesn't really fit with Hartigan, does it?
So, reading between the lines, you have two different investigative abilities, one of which gives you more details about their roles, but negates your investigation the next night?
Assuming so, Unvote AS.
Mason is normally a very strong claim, because of the threat of investigation. Under normal circumstances, a cop can investigate one of them and get a large return back, whether they're both scum or not.
Due to the nature of chamber's/SG's claim, that tactic can't really be relied on, because an investigation would presumably not show them up as town. (MJM's claim just now obviously may change things.)
Everyone who is against a vigging has said, at least implicitly, "If we assume they're telling the truth, we have no reason to want them dead." That's silly. Why is anyone assuming they're telling the truth? We have no way of providing any evidence regarding their benificence to the town, except by killing one of them. None. All we have to work with is their claim, which, as HR so succintly showed, suggests that they are a MUCH greater potential threat than a potential benefit to the town.
As for their behavior, chamber's coming out is a very weak point in his favor. It is very nearly as easy to pretend to come out with an unhelpful claim as to actually do so. SG's coming out, OTOH, does him no credit at all. As an anti-town neutral, or even as scum, his risk is not nearly as great as his potential gain, and he could already see that a lot of people would be on his side before he risked anything.
I'm about 50/50 on them telling the truth, but unless the vig actually has a good reason to believe them (i.e. at least 90/10 in their favor, for which, as a town, we have no evidence) he should do his duty and kill off one of them.
What?! Look at the initial post; he is dead. Deceased. Kaputt. Indefinitely horizontal. In mafia games, you see, people are occasionally "killed off," and when that sad event occurs, he or she is no longer allowed to post, on account of rigor mortis and what-have-you.
'Welcome to Mafia Salvation', it said, 'Population: 3,660.' And someone, they never figured out who, had painted on the sign in red letters: '1,831 to lynch.'
I'm familiar with the game where the mafia claimed masons with each other early. The town won that game. If Chamber and SG are playing us, it will come out eventually. Let's not do the mafia work for them.
The only reason the town won the game is because we were able to out the false masons with a mass roleclaim, and the fact that game worked on a very predictable pattern. This game's pattern is far more complex, and the town is FAR more reluctant to reveal information. Simple belief in a better tomorrow is not going to win us the game, Axelrod.
Quote from Matjoeman »
Second of all I know that 1. AS is town or godfather. 2. Az is scum. He was my better lynch target.
Basicaly we can either:
1. Vig now, possibly wasting a limited number of kills and killing a town. Gains one confirmed town or 2 dead mafias or a couple of neutrals who we have no idea about.
2. Vig later, possibly losing our vig beforehand. Same as one, but we have a chance to catch them in a scummy action and not have to waist resources.
3. I use my better investigation ability and we get a firm answer on scum vs. town for two people. I lose 2 of my investigations.
4. I use my normal investigation ability and them coming up neutral doesn't really tell us anything except the mafia may kill them for us.
And if I use my better investigation ability, we wouldn't know until day 4.
Discuss, and o yeah Vote:Azrael
Vote Azrael. I hope to crap he's not screwing with our minds here.
That was a very brave thing to do, Matjoeman. I hope to hell that our daykiller doesn't show up again to take you out. I'm also hoping we still have some kind of protection role left.
Hartigan would NOT be insane, for those who are curious.
In regards to the inspection vs. vig, I've posted my thoughts below.
Quote from SorryGuy »
Er....I may change this my morning because I may be dumb or misunderstanding something that I will get by then but for now:
Unvote, Vote: Matjoeman
So you used your investigation night 1 on AS and on night 2 Az? And if so, what exactly came up?
What the hell?
SorryGuy, WHY are you voting the claimed inspector? Can you tell me please WHY you would ever do that within ONE post of the guy's claiming?
Vote is still on the vig kill. I know people have argued against it, but to be really honest, I see arguing against this vig kill the same as arguing against the use of an Ancestral Recall.
Why use Ancestral Recall? Well, because for the price of one card you, in a worst case scenario, remove three additional cards that are NOT the card you want to draw from your deck, and at a best case scenario draw exactly the card you want. Why the vig kill? At worst, the vig will take out one of the masons, and confirm the other mason as a town, removing two people from the potential mafia list.
That is, in fact, better than the situation we have now because we do not know that chamber and SorryGuy are not mafia. Just because some might be willing to put them aside does not mean that we will not have to deal with the possibility of their being mafia at a later point in the game. I say deal with the situation while we have the means. This, in combination with the person who Matjoeman inspects tonight, if, God-willing, he survives that long, will get us a full three people closer to the mafia. Ancestral Recall.
I cannot believe a cop came out this early in a game with a daykiller. I hope he has protection he's not telling us about (and I hope he at least doesn't tell us how the protection works).
matjoe, before the daykiller gets you, you better tell us exactly what you found about Az, flavour and all (but don't out any flavour you have on AS, we don't need to know).
unvote Hawkeye, vote Azrael. I feel like I'm moving from one scum to another scum.
Er....I may change this my morning because I may be dumb or misunderstanding something that I will get by then but for now:
Unvote, Vote: Matjoeman
So you used your investigation night 1 on AS and on night 2 Az? And if so, what exactly came up?
Each night I get a point and I can spend one on a alignment only investigation, or two on an everything investigation. Which means I can bank up my points. I investigated them both last night.
I checked out AS's room, he was sleeping. I went out into the hall and checked on the guy in the red sneakers. He's AZ, and he reached into his pocket for his gun(without taking it out). I backed away slowly and remembered seeing his face on wanted posters.
Matjoeman, I don't think it was worth it for you to come forward now just to tell us that Az is scum. We can reasonably assume that Az isn't an active scum, nor would it be fair if he were part of the main mafia group, unless, of course, he set up this whole game and made himself the only scum... which is possible with Az, but I'm reluctant to believe that we've already won. And since he revealed himself to have a vote, I really doubt he would've made himself the only scum.
Well, at least that clears AS (outside of being godfather).
SG: The cop comes out and you immediately vote him? On the grounds that he investigated AS and Az?
I agree that it would be quite out of character to make Hartigan anything other than a normal cop. He's received both a town and mafia result, so he can't be naive or paranoid. Hartigan's character is surely not insane, nor would it make sense for him to be random. I think we can place faith in MJM's results.
I checked out AS's room, he was sleeping. I went out into the hall and checked on the guy in the red sneakers. He's AZ, and he reached into his pocket for his gun(without taking it out). I backed away slowly and remembered seeing his face on wanted posters.
That's really interesting. See, Dwight would be on wanted posters because because he's a criminal, even though he's a good guy. However, I don't think Azrael is Dwight, and only a character based around Dwight because of one really important fact: Dwight had his face changed to fool both the cops and the mob. If Matjoeman, a cop, recognized a guy in red sneakers (incidentally, there is no evidence to ever show that Hartigan knows who Dwight is. And Hartigan DEFINITELY doesn't know what Dwight's new face looks like because Hartigan commits suicide before Dwight's face changes) from wanted posters, that means it's not Dwight.
Uh, so what are you suggesting, HR? That Az is actually a townie? That our mod has made himself a Miller?
Heavens no. I'm saying to lynch Azrael, and that he is not Dwight, as previously thought. Sorry, I accidentally hit "submit reply" instead of "preview post", so I can see why the message isn't clear.
Vote:Azrael in hopes of lynching before mister day kill arrives.
I know what sorryguy is thinking but I don't agree with it.
Excellent point, chamber. If we can lynch someone we know to be scum before Kevin makes his move, we'll have (temporarily) saved our cop.
Unvote. Vote: Azrael
FOS: SorryGuy You vote for the only person who has the potential to clear you and chamber without killing one of you? Or are you afraid he'll find out the truth?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm a mathematics postdoc researching evolution and complex systems. Learn about these ideas here!
Reading the thread. I just want to point out that everyone - including our illustrious game mod - missed this. (I'm not voting at the moment.)
Sorry to double post, but after reading recent happenings, I think we can trust Matjoeman's claim. This role is certainly going to be in the game, so a false claim of Hartigan would almost 100% be counter-claimed in the case of a false claim.
I am willing to test the extent of our cop's powers of investigation. I would like to give everyone the opportunity to voice an opinion though. (Although, I think we may want to act quickly because we have someone with a demonstrated ability to daykill.)
I know what sorryguy is thinking but I don't agree with it.
Well that's great, because I don't think a single person here other than you has any idea why SorryGuy would vote an inspector. Can you tell us what he was thinking?
I can't believe we are going to lynch the Mod. This game is nuts.
Vote: Azrael
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Ok, I think this whole thing has gotten out of hand. I'm going to step in now before y'all do something really bad. We should NOT LYNCH THE MOD based on that assumption. I just watched the movie, so I understand this game a lot better now. It was already pointed out that Dwight changed his face after Hardigan kills himself, so it is possible that Hardigan would recognize his face from wanted posters. Dwight was a "bad guy" technically scum, but in Sin City, no one is completly innocent, and all of this happened before he redeemed himself. I still think that Az has a chance to be Dwight, as it fits flavor wise for Dwight to start this whole process (the locking of everyone in town hall) off. MJM probaly came out this early because he is a bit newer, or he forgot about the day killer. Hopefully the day kill was only a one-shot by the mafia, or we've lost our second inspector. SG worried me a lot with the vote on the inspector, and then Chamber coming out and defending him was rather suspicios because he didn't give any kind of reasoning behind it. (Sorry if this is out of wack, but I actually want more than one post in a game day and I'm running to leave for work) Unvote: WOLG
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
-[thread=14456]The [Untitled] Avatar and Sig shop![/thread] Avatar from:[thread=25376] [Epic Graphics][/thread]
The chant echoes throughout the town, as the crowd rushes to and fro, preparing the execution. In all the hustle and bustle, no one notices a figure slowly weaving his way through the crowd, towards Matjoeman.
No one except for Hawkeye7, Townie Bodyguard, who has been keeping watch over Matjoeman like, well, a hawk. And after he failed to protect Bateleur, the doctor's daughter, his resolve has been redoubled.
Their eyes meet, for an instant. Then Hawkeye takes off into a sprint, desperately trying to reach him first. The other figure flicks his wrist in Matjoeman's direction, and a flurry of deadly metal objects go hurtling towards his throat.
With a wild yell and a flying leap, Hawkeye jumps in front of Matjoeman, bearing him to the ground, and shielding him with his body. Then grunts, as the projectiles hit home. But a thin smile is on his face. He did his job. At least for a few more minutes, Matjoeman will live.
You rush to Hawkeye's side, trying desperately to save him, but it's no use. He's been pierced and sliced in half a dozen places by ninja stars, of all things. As the blood seeps into his lungs, and the rhythmn of his heart slowly fades away, he looks into your eyes, and clasps your arm with his blood-stained hand.
Dead: 1. DYH-Townie Lunatic/Roleblocker/Investigator. Slashed to ribbons on Day One.
2. Kenji-Townie Paranoid. Died of a sudden heart attack day one. (Modkill)
3. Puzzle- Neutral Pacifist. Lynched by the town day one.
4. Bateleur-Townie, the Doctor's Daugher. Throat slashed night two.
5. Hawkeye7-Townie Bodyguard. Sliced and diced by ninja stars day 2.
I do this despite the fact that someone trying to kill MatJoe gives his credibility a serious bump. It might be a daykilling SK, however, who wouldn't know if Mat was accurate about AS and AZ or not.
I don't think the day should end so quickly. Several people were trying to pressure Hawkeye7 with (it seems to me) less than compelling arguments. Perhaps we should go back and look at that now.
I am in serious need of a re-read, however.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Ok, I think this whole thing has gotten out of hand. I'm going to step in now before y'all do something really bad. We should NOT LYNCH THE MOD based on that assumption. I just watched the movie, so I understand this game a lot better now. It was already pointed out that Dwight changed his face after Hardigan kills himself, so it is possible that Hardigan would recognize his face from wanted posters. Dwight was a "bad guy" technically scum, but in Sin City, no one is completly innocent, and all of this happened before he redeemed himself. I still think that Az has a chance to be Dwight, as it fits flavor wise for Dwight to start this whole process (the locking of everyone in town hall) off. MJM probaly came out this early because he is a bit newer, or he forgot about the day killer. Hopefully the day kill was only a one-shot by the mafia, or we've lost our second inspector. SG worried me a lot with the vote on the inspector, and then Chamber coming out and defending him was rather suspicios because he didn't give any kind of reasoning behind it. (Sorry if this is out of wack, but I actually want more than one post in a game day and I'm running to leave for work) Unvote: WOLG
No, you missed the point of my post. He most likely is not Dwight. And even if he accept the possibility that he were Dwight, it'd be absolute stupidity not to lynch him when a person has just claimed inspector.
Edit while previewing: Especially when there's people trying to kill that inspector.
Crap! We just lost a protection role. And... Wait... Something's really strange here. Hawkeye was killed in a manner like Miho. DYH was killed like Kevin. Miho and Kevin are on VERY different sides. Moreover, Kevin never uses weapons. What this means, I do not know, but I wonder if Azrael isn't the one behind the killings. I guess we'll find out soon enough.
Vote stands. FOS those who made a case against Hawkeye.
Now, even if Matjoeman is nightkilled he may still be able to tell us what he found last night. Remember that DYH was able to both talk and vote. I just hope to crap whoever/whatever allowed DYH to talk allows Matjoeman to tomorrow.
I believe this means that there's no way Matjoeman can inspect either chamber or SorryGuy accurately, as he probably won't live long enough to accumulate two points. Once again, I'd recommend that Matjoeman inspect someone else and the vig kill SorryGuy tonight. Crossing my fingers here that we have a vig.
I do this despite the fact that someone trying to kill MatJoe gives his credibility a serious bump. It might be a daykilling SK, however, who wouldn't know if Mat was accurate about AS and AZ or not.
I don't think the day should end so quickly. Several people were trying to pressure Hawkeye7 with (it seems to me) less than compelling arguments. Perhaps we should go back and look at that now.
I am in serious need of a re-read, however.
Now that the day kill happened I agree, no need to rush the lynch. Unvote. Highroller, I'lll let sg explain himself because I could be wrong, I just have an idea.
I wonder if Az gave himself the ability to day-kill anyone who role-claimed....
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
I'm just going to say this now before I forget. If the vig does decide to fire, I would prefer you killed me, I drew the bullseye on our heads so it’s only fair.
I wonder if Az gave himself the ability to day-kill anyone who role-claimed....
You might be on to something. I'm going to reread the thread and get back to this.
Quote from chamber »
I'm just going to say this now before I forget. If the vig does decide to fire, I would prefer you killed me, I drew the bullseye on our heads so it’s only fair.
Yes, but SorryGuy acted much more suspiciously than you did, even before the voting of the inspector.
Yes, but SorryGuy acted much more suspiciously than you did, even before the voting of the inspector.
I don't see how that’s relevant, at this point we are either both anti-town, or both as claimed. Killing me will prove his innocence just fine. And I don't want to be responsible for getting him killed.
So wait - we've seen two different daykills so far. They can't possibly be more than one-time abilities, can they? Otherwise, that's a severe disadvantage we're at, even with more bodyguards.
In any case, let's not lynch Az yet so we can reassess where we're at. This may change things. At this rate, though, I do feel now that we may need to vig chamber/SG early, as it doesn't look like this is a game for taking things leisurely.
A couple things wrong with chamber's last few posts:
Highroller, I'lll let sg explain himself because I could be wrong, I just have an idea.
Except that day communication is allowed in this game, so him "explaining himself" doesn't really tell us anything. But we still want to hear it, of course.
I'm just going to say this now before I forget. If the vig does decide to fire, I would prefer you killed me, I drew the bullseye on our heads so it’s only fair.
I have to agree with LJustus here. This really feels more like an attempt to protect a stronger role, or otherwise manipulate the town.
I don't see how that’s relevant, at this point we are either both anti-town, or both as claimed. Killing me will prove his innocence just fine. And I don't want to be responsible for getting him killed.
And if you're both anti-town, we may be giving one of you an extra opportunity to do something harmful to us.
By the way, that last vote count made me realize I forgot to unvote aurorasparrow.
So wait - we've seen two different daykills so far. They can't possibly be more than one-time abilities, can they? Otherwise, that's a severe disadvantage we're at, even with more bodyguards.
In any case, let's not lynch Az yet so we can reassess where we're at. This may change things. At this rate, though, I do feel now that we may need to vig chamber/SG early, as it doesn't look like this is a game for taking things leisurely.
A couple things wrong with chamber's last few posts:
Except that day communication is allowed in this game, so him "explaining himself" doesn't really tell us anything. But we still want to hear it, of course.
I have to agree with LJustus here. This really feels more like an attempt to protect a stronger role, or otherwise manipulate the town.
And if you're both anti-town, we may be giving one of you an extra opportunity to do something harmful to us.
By the way, that last vote count made me realize I forgot to unvote aurorasparrow.
I see things differently from you, because I know I'm telling the truth. Furthermore this is wifom anyway, I actually thought you may react as you are, so perhaps I’m the evil Mafia with the better ability just trying to get you to kill sg?
I said I’d let him explain because I don’t know for sure what he’s thinking, I only have an idea. I can almost say for sure that it involves info that you don’t have. But imo the info is worthless when compared to a cop investigation, and doesn’t even suggest he’s not scum only that he isn't part of one group of scum.
If we have a real cop, then the newspaper cop is likely wrong. HR is a high-priority target.
The Az Lynch today seems like a fair choice.
The "vig either chamber or SG" thing is most definitely a WIFOM sort of situation. I suggest the vig flip a coin, if they plan on killing at all.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Lord, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, the wisdom to know the difference, and a ****ing chainsaw.
Responding to your theory, Axelrod, it's possible. However, the problem is I don't think DYH ever outright claimed. I personally think that Azrael is behind it, but I'm not sure that it's triggered by the claims. Moreover, if it's not Azrael and is in the hands of an SK, then there definitely will be correlation between who reveals information about their role and who gets killed.
Personally, I'm wanting the day to end as soon as possible because if Azrael is indeed an evil mod, I'm not sure what exactly he's going to pull. Not to mention that Kenji died yesterday and I'd rather not have another mod kill.
And what the HELL is WIFOM?
Quote from chamber »
I said I’d let him explain because I don’t know for sure what he’s thinking, I only have an idea. I can almost say for sure that it involves info that you don’t have. But imo the info is worthless when compared to a cop investigation, and doesn’t even suggest he’s not scum only that he isn't part of one group of scum.
I see things differently from you, because I know I'm telling the truth.
Of course you're telling the truth. No one lies in Mafia.
By the way, arguing that everyone else should see things your way is hardly convincing.
Furthermore this is wifom anyway, I actually thought you may react as you are, so perhaps I’m the evil Mafia with the better ability just trying to get you to kill sg?
Indeed it's WIFOM, but the more important thing is that we have a mason pair under suspicion, and one of them is trying to tell us which one of them to check! We can only guess at whether you or SG has a stronger role, but if a suspect is trying to tell us what to do without providing an argument behind it (other than trying to draw sympathy), that hardly makes that person less suspicious.
I said I’d let him explain because I don’t know for sure what he’s thinking, I only have an idea. I can almost say for sure that it involves info that you don’t have. But imo the info is worthless when compared to a cop investigation, and doesn’t even suggest he’s not scum only that he isn't part of one group of scum.
Azrael didn't willing vote for highroller, he was forced to vote by someone else. For some reason that person had to go through us (yeah its weird) He is one of our old prison mates and asked us to rough up azrael so that he’d vote for highroller. Now the fact that it’s one of our prison mates suggests that they are not town aligned. Also the fact that they chose azrael leads me to believe azrael isn't part of their group. Again this is weak evidence in his favor and only suggests he’s not part of one group. If you want evidence of this you can look at the end of yesterday where suddenly, both sorryguy and me were like "oh wait never mind azrael is cool don’t worry about him". That happened because at first the pm to us didn’t tell us it was azrael we were forcing to vote, later right before those comments it was revised to include that it was him we were roughing up.
Quote from fadeblue »
Of course you're telling the truth. No one lies in Mafia.
By the way, arguing that everyone else should see things your way is hardly convincing.
I'm not arguing everyone else should see things my way, simply saying that I have a different perspective.
Quote from fadeblue »
Uh, then why even bring it up?
Its simply the only reason I see SorryGuy could think mat was lying, as I said, I still think it's a bad reason.
This makes no sense to me. By your logic, as far as I’m concerned, we should vig every mason pair to confirm the other, they could be mafia after all. If you agree with that statement then fine, but I don't. If you disagree please explain to me what the diffrence in situation is.
Town/Mafia/Other - 14/6/3
Win/Lose/Tie - 11/12/0
Nk/lynched/Survived - 16/4/3
Both? I'm labeled as neutral by az, but unless sorryguy is lynched I have the town win condition.
Town/Mafia/Other - 14/6/3
Win/Lose/Tie - 11/12/0
Nk/lynched/Survived - 16/4/3
If, as chamber suggests, we get "neutral: mason" from them, vigging still won't prove anything other than that aren't currently mafia. It won't prove their real win conditions since Az isn't giving those away for free. It's an unfortunately clever claim, but it could be true. Vigging is not required at this time.
As it stands, we have two potential townies who we know are linked. I don't like it that they claimed when neither was suspicious. If they do indeed win with the town they've just narrowed down the field for mafia looking for cop/doc roles, and they've drawn unnecessary discussion from the town to two townies. I have that against them, but it's not enough (I also don't like it that chamber intercepted my question to SG as to what SG thought of chamber's reasons for coming out, because it can be a sign of someone who doesn't trust their partner to say the right thing- which signals that someone's lying. Memo to chamber: I wanted his opinion on you, not your opinion on you.)
Oh, and unvote, vote Hawkeye. As previously discussed.
I'm familiar with the game where the mafia claimed masons with each other early. The town won that game. If Chamber and SG are playing us, it will come out eventually. Let's not do the mafia work for them.
So to all you saying your "pro-vigging," let's get a bit more specific, eh? CF seems to believe them, yet still supports the vigging, and HR has avoided the issue of their behaviour completely. I mean seriously, what kind of sense does that make? So how about we have people actually stating whether they believe them or not rather then just saying their "pro-vigging?" I'm sure it will helpful for analysis later on.
I find it interesting that several people are simply stating "pro-vig" with no reason, yet everyone who says anti-vig actually gives some backing.
[The Family]
I think pro-viggers are treating these masons as too much of a threat. realistically, what could they do to us? even if they are lying, how do they hurt us?
4th place at CCC&G Pro Tour
Chances of bad hands (<2 or >4 land):
21: 28.9%
22: 27.5%
23: 26.3%
24: 25.5%
25: 25.1%
26: 25.3%
If you and HR are referring to Super Mario RPG Mafia, the only reason the town caught the mason liars was because the structure of the game was such that there was no other possibility besides them being Mafia. HR was basically the only one who was skeptical of their claim throughout the game, and not until the endgame (where it became clear there was no other room for the Mafia) did the rest of the town also become skeptical. And it's pretty obvious this game doesn't have a structure which will make determining this pair's alignment so easily.
My primary concern, like C_F's, is that the masons will likely need to be verified at some time later in the game. Lynching is a poor way to verify them, as it carries high risk in the event that they're telling the truth. Investigating is also a possibility, but we can't guarantee it's perfect information (not to mention that an investigation could be better spent elsewhere). Thus, vigging is the safest and most reliable way to check them, and the longer we wait, the more likely we are to no longer have a vig.
That said, I don't believe we are at too much risk if we let them live on a little longer, but I don't advocate letting them go unchecked for too long. Remember that they are neutral, and as such, may have an anti-town win condition that we don't know about. We can't simply take their word without eventually having some kind of verification.
Quoted for truthery.
4th place at CCC&G Pro Tour
Chances of bad hands (<2 or >4 land):
21: 28.9%
22: 27.5%
23: 26.3%
24: 25.5%
25: 25.1%
26: 25.3%
Vote: JC. Not a cult recruit. btw, JC is the official shorthand for my name.
Sorryguy and chamber are more scummy than normal masons because:
1. They've claimed a deterrent to lynching them, which is a good thing for mafia to do.
2. chamber claimed without any provocation to prove... what? That Puzzle wasn't necessarily anti town? After he had lied to all of us?
So the worry is that sorryguy and chamber are mafia or otherwise allied anti-town.
But what's the need to vig one now? Yes, our vig could die, but remember that there's no drawback to lynching them if they actually are mafia. And if they are, we will probably catch on at some point. For now, let's keep our eye on them and just lynch whoever is scummiest.
Speaking of which...
Major FOS: Hawkeye. The "ability" being used on you makes absolutely no sense, and I'm starting to think it may be a ROLE restriction rather than the effect of an ability. There could be flavor reasons why your character must vote Raf at least once each day. Perhaps you thought you could gain more sympathy from the town by lying about it.
But a bigger tell is this:
This misses the point by so far that it looks like deliberate mudslinging. Obviously, a vote for chamber is as good as a vote for himself in proving he's not in the cult, if there is one.
Hawkeye has jumped to #1 scummy in my mind, with Aurorasparrow holding on at #2.
Can someone put together a comprehensive case on AS? It would help me weigh things to have all his scumminess laid out in a single post. I lack the time to do it myself right now, but I'll do it in a few days if it hasn't been done by then.
1) To be in the last X people alive
2) To be the only non-mafia people left alive (at which point they join the mafia and win with them)
I'm sure there are other possibilities, but those are two that I have seen in a number of games.
I thought about this a lot, but whatever. If this is a bad play just remember I'm semi-new to mafia.
I am Hartigan, the cop. I did not write that message last night.
First of all I can get chamber's or SG's role info but it would cost me 2 of my night investigations so I'm not sure if it's worth it. Because every night I get a point, and I can at night spend a point to get someones alignment, or at day spend 2 points to get someones alignment/role name/abilities.
Second of all I know that 1. AS is town or godfather. 2. Az is scum. He was my better lynch target.
Basicaly we can either:
1. Vig now, possibly wasting a limited number of kills and killing a town. Gains one confirmed town or 2 dead mafias or a couple of neutrals who we have no idea about.
2. Vig later, possibly losing our vig beforehand. Same as one, but we have a chance to catch them in a scummy action and not have to waist resources.
3. I use my better investigation ability and we get a firm answer on scum vs. town for two people. I lose 2 of my investigations.
4. I use my normal investigation ability and them coming up neutral doesn't really tell us anything except the mafia may kill them for us.
And if I use my better investigation ability, we wouldn't know until day 4.
Discuss, and o yeah Vote:Azrael
<XylBot> ||| MAFIABOT || sk: LookingforReality (Copycat) |||
<XylBot> ||| MAFIABOT || survivor: matjoeman (Anarchist) |||
<XylBot> ||| MAFIABOT || town: kops (Anarchist) |||
Mafia stats
Unvote, Vote: Matjoeman
So you used your investigation night 1 on AS and on night 2 Az? And if so, what exactly came up?
With the (presumably, for the moment) real cop in the open, the newspaper looks even less reliable. Matjoe might be insane, but that doesn't really fit with Hartigan, does it?
[The Family]
So, reading between the lines, you have two different investigative abilities, one of which gives you more details about their roles, but negates your investigation the next night?
Assuming so, Unvote AS.
Mason is normally a very strong claim, because of the threat of investigation. Under normal circumstances, a cop can investigate one of them and get a large return back, whether they're both scum or not.
Due to the nature of chamber's/SG's claim, that tactic can't really be relied on, because an investigation would presumably not show them up as town. (MJM's claim just now obviously may change things.)
Everyone who is against a vigging has said, at least implicitly, "If we assume they're telling the truth, we have no reason to want them dead." That's silly. Why is anyone assuming they're telling the truth? We have no way of providing any evidence regarding their benificence to the town, except by killing one of them. None. All we have to work with is their claim, which, as HR so succintly showed, suggests that they are a MUCH greater potential threat than a potential benefit to the town.
As for their behavior, chamber's coming out is a very weak point in his favor. It is very nearly as easy to pretend to come out with an unhelpful claim as to actually do so. SG's coming out, OTOH, does him no credit at all. As an anti-town neutral, or even as scum, his risk is not nearly as great as his potential gain, and he could already see that a lot of people would be on his side before he risked anything.
I'm about 50/50 on them telling the truth, but unless the vig actually has a good reason to believe them (i.e. at least 90/10 in their favor, for which, as a town, we have no evidence) he should do his duty and kill off one of them.
Mafia MVP BM Mafia
Mafia MVP Matrix Mafia
The only reason the town won the game is because we were able to out the false masons with a mass roleclaim, and the fact that game worked on a very predictable pattern. This game's pattern is far more complex, and the town is FAR more reluctant to reveal information. Simple belief in a better tomorrow is not going to win us the game, Axelrod.
Vote Azrael. I hope to crap he's not screwing with our minds here.
That was a very brave thing to do, Matjoeman. I hope to hell that our daykiller doesn't show up again to take you out. I'm also hoping we still have some kind of protection role left.
Hartigan would NOT be insane, for those who are curious.
In regards to the inspection vs. vig, I've posted my thoughts below.
What the hell?
SorryGuy, WHY are you voting the claimed inspector? Can you tell me please WHY you would ever do that within ONE post of the guy's claiming?
Vote is still on the vig kill. I know people have argued against it, but to be really honest, I see arguing against this vig kill the same as arguing against the use of an Ancestral Recall.
Why use Ancestral Recall? Well, because for the price of one card you, in a worst case scenario, remove three additional cards that are NOT the card you want to draw from your deck, and at a best case scenario draw exactly the card you want. Why the vig kill? At worst, the vig will take out one of the masons, and confirm the other mason as a town, removing two people from the potential mafia list.
That is, in fact, better than the situation we have now because we do not know that chamber and SorryGuy are not mafia. Just because some might be willing to put them aside does not mean that we will not have to deal with the possibility of their being mafia at a later point in the game. I say deal with the situation while we have the means. This, in combination with the person who Matjoeman inspects tonight, if, God-willing, he survives that long, will get us a full three people closer to the mafia. Ancestral Recall.
matjoe, before the daykiller gets you, you better tell us exactly what you found about Az, flavour and all (but don't out any flavour you have on AS, we don't need to know).
unvote Hawkeye, vote Azrael. I feel like I'm moving from one scum to another scum.
Each night I get a point and I can spend one on a alignment only investigation, or two on an everything investigation. Which means I can bank up my points. I investigated them both last night.
I checked out AS's room, he was sleeping. I went out into the hall and checked on the guy in the red sneakers. He's AZ, and he reached into his pocket for his gun(without taking it out). I backed away slowly and remembered seeing his face on wanted posters.
<XylBot> ||| MAFIABOT || sk: LookingforReality (Copycat) |||
<XylBot> ||| MAFIABOT || survivor: matjoeman (Anarchist) |||
<XylBot> ||| MAFIABOT || town: kops (Anarchist) |||
Mafia stats
Matjoeman, I don't think it was worth it for you to come forward now just to tell us that Az is scum. We can reasonably assume that Az isn't an active scum, nor would it be fair if he were part of the main mafia group, unless, of course, he set up this whole game and made himself the only scum... which is possible with Az, but I'm reluctant to believe that we've already won. And since he revealed himself to have a vote, I really doubt he would've made himself the only scum.
Well, at least that clears AS (outside of being godfather).
SG: The cop comes out and you immediately vote him? On the grounds that he investigated AS and Az?
I agree that it would be quite out of character to make Hartigan anything other than a normal cop. He's received both a town and mafia result, so he can't be naive or paranoid. Hartigan's character is surely not insane, nor would it make sense for him to be random. I think we can place faith in MJM's results.
[The Family]
That's really interesting. See, Dwight would be on wanted posters because because he's a criminal, even though he's a good guy. However, I don't think Azrael is Dwight, and only a character based around Dwight because of one really important fact: Dwight had his face changed to fool both the cops and the mob. If Matjoeman, a cop, recognized a guy in red sneakers (incidentally, there is no evidence to ever show that Hartigan knows who Dwight is. And Hartigan DEFINITELY doesn't know what Dwight's new face looks like because Hartigan commits suicide before Dwight's face changes) from wanted posters, that means it's not Dwight.
Heavens no. I'm saying to lynch Azrael, and that he is not Dwight, as previously thought. Sorry, I accidentally hit "submit reply" instead of "preview post", so I can see why the message isn't clear.
I know what sorryguy is thinking but I don't agree with it.
Town/Mafia/Other - 14/6/3
Win/Lose/Tie - 11/12/0
Nk/lynched/Survived - 16/4/3
Excellent point, chamber. If we can lynch someone we know to be scum before Kevin makes his move, we'll have (temporarily) saved our cop.
Unvote. Vote: Azrael
FOS: SorryGuy You vote for the only person who has the potential to clear you and chamber without killing one of you? Or are you afraid he'll find out the truth?
Sorry to double post, but after reading recent happenings, I think we can trust Matjoeman's claim. This role is certainly going to be in the game, so a false claim of Hartigan would almost 100% be counter-claimed in the case of a false claim.
I am willing to test the extent of our cop's powers of investigation. I would like to give everyone the opportunity to voice an opinion though. (Although, I think we may want to act quickly because we have someone with a demonstrated ability to daykill.)
vote: Azrael
Well that's great, because I don't think a single person here other than you has any idea why SorryGuy would vote an inspector. Can you tell us what he was thinking?
Vote: Azrael
Official Vote Count:
8 Azrael-Matjoeman, Cropcircles, Highroller, Rafaelk, Chamber, JC, LJustus, Axelrod
2 Aurorasparrow-Fadeblue, Aurorasparrow
2 Hawkeye7-Hawkeye7, Armlx
1 Crippled Fist-Crippled Fist
1 Draygn_Mage-Draygn_Mage
1 Matjoeman- SG
1 WoLG- WoLG
3 Not Voting: Carrion Pigeons, Rhinocero, Fayul
10 to Lynch.
Einsteinmonkey has been replaced by Rhinocero, effective immediately.
-[thread=14456]The [Untitled] Avatar and Sig shop![/thread] Avatar from:[thread=25376] [Epic Graphics][/thread]
Awards:
Elegant Mafia: The Joker, Mafia MVP
The chant echoes throughout the town, as the crowd rushes to and fro, preparing the execution. In all the hustle and bustle, no one notices a figure slowly weaving his way through the crowd, towards Matjoeman.
No one except for Hawkeye7, Townie Bodyguard, who has been keeping watch over Matjoeman like, well, a hawk. And after he failed to protect Bateleur, the doctor's daughter, his resolve has been redoubled.
Their eyes meet, for an instant. Then Hawkeye takes off into a sprint, desperately trying to reach him first. The other figure flicks his wrist in Matjoeman's direction, and a flurry of deadly metal objects go hurtling towards his throat.
With a wild yell and a flying leap, Hawkeye jumps in front of Matjoeman, bearing him to the ground, and shielding him with his body. Then grunts, as the projectiles hit home. But a thin smile is on his face. He did his job. At least for a few more minutes, Matjoeman will live.
You rush to Hawkeye's side, trying desperately to save him, but it's no use. He's been pierced and sliced in half a dozen places by ninja stars, of all things. As the blood seeps into his lungs, and the rhythmn of his heart slowly fades away, he looks into your eyes, and clasps your arm with his blood-stained hand.
"Don't let those bastards win."
Then, Hawkeye7, Townie Bodyguard, is dead.
Living 18/23:
1. Fadeblue
2. JCSuperstar
3. RafaelK
4. Ljustus
5. Cropcircles
6. Carrion Pigeons
7. Aurorasparrow
8. Highroller
9. Axelrod
10. Draygn Mage
11. WellofLost Gnomes
12. Crippled_Fist
13. Armlx
14. Sorryguy
15. Matjoeman
16. Chamber
17. Fayul
18. Einsteinmonkey
Dead:
1. DYH-Townie Lunatic/Roleblocker/Investigator. Slashed to ribbons on Day One.
2. Kenji-Townie Paranoid. Died of a sudden heart attack day one. (Modkill)
3. Puzzle- Neutral Pacifist. Lynched by the town day one.
4. Bateleur-Townie, the Doctor's Daugher. Throat slashed night two.
5. Hawkeye7-Townie Bodyguard. Sliced and diced by ninja stars day 2.
With 18 alive, it's still 10 to lynch.
I do this despite the fact that someone trying to kill MatJoe gives his credibility a serious bump. It might be a daykilling SK, however, who wouldn't know if Mat was accurate about AS and AZ or not.
I don't think the day should end so quickly. Several people were trying to pressure Hawkeye7 with (it seems to me) less than compelling arguments. Perhaps we should go back and look at that now.
I am in serious need of a re-read, however.
No, you missed the point of my post. He most likely is not Dwight. And even if he accept the possibility that he were Dwight, it'd be absolute stupidity not to lynch him when a person has just claimed inspector.
Edit while previewing: Especially when there's people trying to kill that inspector.
Crap! We just lost a protection role. And... Wait... Something's really strange here. Hawkeye was killed in a manner like Miho. DYH was killed like Kevin. Miho and Kevin are on VERY different sides. Moreover, Kevin never uses weapons. What this means, I do not know, but I wonder if Azrael isn't the one behind the killings. I guess we'll find out soon enough.
Vote stands. FOS those who made a case against Hawkeye.
Now, even if Matjoeman is nightkilled he may still be able to tell us what he found last night. Remember that DYH was able to both talk and vote. I just hope to crap whoever/whatever allowed DYH to talk allows Matjoeman to tomorrow.
I believe this means that there's no way Matjoeman can inspect either chamber or SorryGuy accurately, as he probably won't live long enough to accumulate two points. Once again, I'd recommend that Matjoeman inspect someone else and the vig kill SorryGuy tonight. Crossing my fingers here that we have a vig.
Now that the day kill happened I agree, no need to rush the lynch. Unvote. Highroller, I'lll let sg explain himself because I could be wrong, I just have an idea.
Town/Mafia/Other - 14/6/3
Win/Lose/Tie - 11/12/0
Nk/lynched/Survived - 16/4/3
Town/Mafia/Other - 14/6/3
Win/Lose/Tie - 11/12/0
Nk/lynched/Survived - 16/4/3
You might be on to something. I'm going to reread the thread and get back to this.
Yes, but SorryGuy acted much more suspiciously than you did, even before the voting of the inspector.
I don't see how that’s relevant, at this point we are either both anti-town, or both as claimed. Killing me will prove his innocence just fine. And I don't want to be responsible for getting him killed.
Town/Mafia/Other - 14/6/3
Win/Lose/Tie - 11/12/0
Nk/lynched/Survived - 16/4/3
For some reason, that's the message I am getting.
In any case, let's not lynch Az yet so we can reassess where we're at. This may change things. At this rate, though, I do feel now that we may need to vig chamber/SG early, as it doesn't look like this is a game for taking things leisurely.
A couple things wrong with chamber's last few posts:
Except that day communication is allowed in this game, so him "explaining himself" doesn't really tell us anything. But we still want to hear it, of course.
I have to agree with LJustus here. This really feels more like an attempt to protect a stronger role, or otherwise manipulate the town.
And if you're both anti-town, we may be giving one of you an extra opportunity to do something harmful to us.
By the way, that last vote count made me realize I forgot to unvote aurorasparrow.
I see things differently from you, because I know I'm telling the truth. Furthermore this is wifom anyway, I actually thought you may react as you are, so perhaps I’m the evil Mafia with the better ability just trying to get you to kill sg?
I said I’d let him explain because I don’t know for sure what he’s thinking, I only have an idea. I can almost say for sure that it involves info that you don’t have. But imo the info is worthless when compared to a cop investigation, and doesn’t even suggest he’s not scum only that he isn't part of one group of scum.
Town/Mafia/Other - 14/6/3
Win/Lose/Tie - 11/12/0
Nk/lynched/Survived - 16/4/3
The Az Lynch today seems like a fair choice.
The "vig either chamber or SG" thing is most definitely a WIFOM sort of situation. I suggest the vig flip a coin, if they plan on killing at all.
I'm getting the same message.
WellofLostGnomes: Why is it you vote in bold red?
Responding to your theory, Axelrod, it's possible. However, the problem is I don't think DYH ever outright claimed. I personally think that Azrael is behind it, but I'm not sure that it's triggered by the claims. Moreover, if it's not Azrael and is in the hands of an SK, then there definitely will be correlation between who reveals information about their role and who gets killed.
Personally, I'm wanting the day to end as soon as possible because if Azrael is indeed an evil mod, I'm not sure what exactly he's going to pull. Not to mention that Kenji died yesterday and I'd rather not have another mod kill.
And what the HELL is WIFOM?
Wait, what do you mean info we don't have?
Of course you're telling the truth. No one lies in Mafia.
By the way, arguing that everyone else should see things your way is hardly convincing.
Indeed it's WIFOM, but the more important thing is that we have a mason pair under suspicion, and one of them is trying to tell us which one of them to check! We can only guess at whether you or SG has a stronger role, but if a suspect is trying to tell us what to do without providing an argument behind it (other than trying to draw sympathy), that hardly makes that person less suspicious.
Uh, then why even bring it up?
LAS (lynch all scum)...
Azrael didn't willing vote for highroller, he was forced to vote by someone else. For some reason that person had to go through us (yeah its weird) He is one of our old prison mates and asked us to rough up azrael so that he’d vote for highroller. Now the fact that it’s one of our prison mates suggests that they are not town aligned. Also the fact that they chose azrael leads me to believe azrael isn't part of their group. Again this is weak evidence in his favor and only suggests he’s not part of one group. If you want evidence of this you can look at the end of yesterday where suddenly, both sorryguy and me were like "oh wait never mind azrael is cool don’t worry about him". That happened because at first the pm to us didn’t tell us it was azrael we were forcing to vote, later right before those comments it was revised to include that it was him we were roughing up.
I'm not arguing everyone else should see things my way, simply saying that I have a different perspective.
Its simply the only reason I see SorryGuy could think mat was lying, as I said, I still think it's a bad reason.
Town/Mafia/Other - 14/6/3
Win/Lose/Tie - 11/12/0
Nk/lynched/Survived - 16/4/3