Could someone please explain how the Riku + Palinchron = Infinite mana, infinite Palinchrons works. I just don't get exactly how it happens.
To be a bit more specific, Palinchron costs 7 mana, and bounces for 4, riku copies for 2. That is a total cost of 13, and Palinchron untaps 7 lands, and the copy untaps 7 lands. That is 14 mana returned. 14-13 = net gain of 1 mana per iteration, while leaving the copy in play.
Steps to resolve with only 7 lands out (3 sources of blue, 1 green needed).
1) Pay 7 to play Palinchron. 2 triggers: stack in order of riku, palinchron (Palinchron resolves first).
2) Palinchron untaps 7 lands
3) Riku's copy resolves, pay UG to copy.
4) Copy enters, targets 7 lands to untap.
5) Bounce palinchron for 2UU
6) Tap last land for 1
7) Allow untap to resolve.
-) You have 7 untapped lands and palinchron in hand, returning you to position 1. you also have 1 and a Palinchron copy on the board. Repeat for infinite.
We have a new enemy that more playgroups are adopting..... Torpor Orb- let's discuss efficient ways to deal with this card. It stops, what has been traditionally been thought of as, the best creatures for EDH (those with ETB effects). If your deck is built heavily around 187, it can cripple you if you don't see an answer. This rings especially true when Torpor Orb is coupled with counter spell back up, disruption that attacks you at a different angle (Leyline of the Void, Aven Mindsensor, Elesh Norn, Ethersworn Canonist, etc). Let's discuss ways of dealing with Torpor Orb.
How about using Tradewind Rider with Riku, he's a cheap flyer, plus copying him means we have one less creature to worry about for the bounce cost requirement...
Primary and only casual rule: "any rule that is fine for the most part of the playgroup, is a fine rule". So any further thread with: "if somebody uses/does .... in a casual game, is it ethical/ok?", read the answer above.
- Being a "Johnny/Spike" means you like self-torture. You win often in casual, so everybody hates you; you loose often in competitive, so you hate yourself.
Seedborn Muse.
No one can deny that it is an excellent card but I think in our deck is totally awesome for many reason:
-Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker this little goblin is the reason why i leave Karador, Ghost Chieftain in favor of jund color(and if the colors of the general would not determine the identity of the deck i would play kiki-jiki as my general, and for me Riku is some kind of kiki-jiki on steroids), with the muse in play you can make even more copy of your etb creature, moreover, if you play Riku as a general it mean you will play 2 copy of your etb creature during each opponent turn, and if you are playng FFA as me it will be a lot of copy, also, if you have Minion Reflector on the board you will have 3 copy of that etb creature, if the game is really long and you will have Rings of Brighthearth on the board, you will have...well...many copy(I don't know if rings can copy even minion reflector token). Moreso you can also put in game multiple copy of the creature you imprinted on Mimic Vat.
- 2 more reason to put back the muse in your deck are Fauna Shaman and Birthing Pod with one of those and the muse you can tutor for a lot of creature if there isn't too much GY hate in your meta.
-If you think you'd like to have some more tutor for creatures I recommend you Impromptu Raid, this card is really good to me esplecially with muse, and don't forget to copy the creature you put in game, eventually, if you lose some important non-creature, you can aways take it back with E. Witness.
I've also tested Hibernation's End and i really like it, just, if you think you will use it, i recommend you to find a spot for some nice 1 cmc creature(s).
If you feel like you need another finisher I would suggest Wurmcoil Engine, it is really good because you can make a lot of mini-wurm with the kiki-jiki trick i explained before(i really like him and Minion R. say "Sacrifice it at the beginning of the next end step" that mean "go to the GY and make 2 little mini-wurm".
I envy you a lot Mystic Snake with kiki-jiki and muse is a free counterspell-with-body each turn and Mulldrifter will let you draw really a lot even without bounce them back, another trick i'd like to do would be make multiple copy of Gilded Drake to steal every scary creatures (and generals) to my opponent and let them with nothing because your copy of the drake will disappear eot(you can always take back your drake with the last copy), if you already "donate" the drake to your opponent you can use Sarkhan Vol or one of your clones to start(I'm not sure about this "drake donation" things, because if I have to donate the drake etb I don't know if I have "enough time" to put on the stack the Riku and kiki-jiki copy before i have to give him to my opponent, or i would play him, copy with riku while the first copy go to steal my fist victim and use the Riku's copy to take the drake back and start to copy it with kiki-jiki and begin my conquer of the world muahahaha ).
And if you think that it will make you more vulnerable to spot removal "exile from the game" I use Riftsweeper for that and for take back cards i need if opponent use GY hate on important card.
The more i think about this deck the more i like it but i really miss the generic tutor and the recursion that black offer(and tricks like Melira, Sylvok Outcast + Rendclaw Trow+Savra, Queen of the Golgari+Puppeteer Clique + Murderous Redcap or Eternal Witness + Diabolic Intent) and Garruk 3.0 from Innistrad is screaming "WAIT FOR ME".
Probably if the "dragon donate" trick is legal I'll give it a try because i think that this deck lack in the department of the board control but it has more and faster finisher.
I really would like if Riku can make a real copy of my cards so i can have both decks at the same time.
A few things here:
1) Seedborn Muse is a great card. Being able to open mana on opponents turns should never be underestimated, moreso with a general that copies instants.
2)Kiki-Jiki is an awesome card, especially with all the backup creatures we'll be running. A small issue with your analysis though. Any creature you copy with Kiki-Jiki cannot be copied with Riku or Minion Reflector, the "nontoken" clause stops that.
Whenever a nontoken creature enters the battlefield under your control, you may pay {2}. If you do, put a token that's a copy of that creature onto the battlefield. That token has haste and "At the beginning of the end step, sacrifice this permanent."
You can get extra creatures off of champion tricks and Doubling Season though.
3)Even with the muse, Fauna Shaman is a lesser Survival of the Fittest. For people like me though, who do not have survival, she's a more than acceptable alternative. Use mainly creature mana ramp, or pair with Genesis and you can filter away less than useful mana rampers for powerful beaters. It's not something you need to do on each opponents turn though.
4)Birthing Pod is extremely powerful, many decks run it already, and you are correct in pointing out that Hibernation's End works well if you have already tailored your mana curve to fit the pod.
6)There are lots of great things that can be done with our mirror obsessed goblin, however Guilded Drake will not leave your opponents with nothing. Kiki tells you to sacrifice the creature, and you can't sacrifice a creature you don't control. Your opponents have nothing telling them to sacrifice the drake, so they'll keep it. Still, taking everything and leaving them with 3/3 flyers isn't a bad deal, just not the massive blowout you were hoping for. Combine it with Dual Nature though... and you can toast them all. This however all depends on you having the Drake on your side of the board, somehow. Kiki won't target Opponents' creatures.
7) You have enough time to copy the drake before donating it. The exchange is a triggered ability which you can respond to.
8) Riftsweeper is a card I hadn't used much before, but I am starting to think more about. It has a lot of power behind it, but would probably be better in a UWG blink deck to abuse it as a Tuck effect.
How about using Tradewind Rider with Riku, he's a cheap flyer, plus copying him means we have one less creature to worry about for the bounce cost requirement...
Thoughts?
Well, Tradewind Rider has always been a powerhouse, involved in a number of rather evil combos. You can definitely add him if you're going for a combo Riku Build, but even without that he's good removal tech and good to bounce your own guys.
While copying him would allow you to activate him alone (him + copy + riku) I wouldn't really put it as "one less creature to worry about the bounce cost." That's true for only one activation, but now you have 2 of him, so you have the capability of using both...
If you are building a cheaper ETB abusing deck and your creatures are smaller and might not hold up in combat, he might be a good way to get some use from them. Same if you're building a heavy token theme deck.
Emmara is like the worst parts of Legends and Homelands got pregnant, aborted the fetus, tossed it in the trashcan, set it on fire and wrapped the corpse in a Dragon's Maze pack wrapper.
Thanks for contributing. I'll start by saying that I agree with most of bob's evaulations but I'll add a bit to them:
Seedborn Muse is hot stuff, but I don't play it though because I don't have a lot to do on other players' turns. If I were to include flash enablers to support it (Vedalken Orrery, Leyline of Anticipation, Winding Canyons), tappers like Tradewind Rider and Nin the Pain Artist, or simply more instants, I would have to change the deck around considerably to make it more useful. Pretty much all I have now are a few instants and Kiki-Jiki. Which is pretty much why I have the first two "generic" strategies in the primer split between a deck with Seedborn Muse and a deck without Seedborn Muse. It also shares a mana cost with Riku, which hurts its playability. I think it's a great card for sure and it's weird to think that it's not in a UG deck but this particular one wants more than just Serra's Blessing and the odd extra removal spell for a 5cmc guy. By the way, no synergy with Birthing Pod- you can only activate its ability as a sorcery, tapped or not.
Impromptu raid is cute as a slightly cheaper Lurking Predators. I think I prefer the latter. Either way, I think it's much better in a deck with even more creatures that isn't trying to toolbox them in like mine. It also gains more with library manipulation, which I don't have outside of Top and Trinket Mage to fetch it.
Wurmcoil is cool with Kiki-Jiki, Birthing Pod, and all the other recursion options we've already brought up. I should add it to the primer if it's not there. I finally got web access at my new place so I could update the primer this evening perhaps with that and all the other stuff mentioned in the last couple pages, like Tradewind Rider (definitely worth a mention in the control deck w Seedborn Muse).
Riftsweeper is a card I hadn't used much before, but I am starting to think more about. It has a lot of power behind it, but would probably be better in a UWG blink deck to abuse it as a Tuck effect.
What are you tucking? Riftsweeper doesn't hit the command zone, which is actually a different place than "exile". Otherwise, it's cool to get exiled stuff back in your library but you still have to work to get it into your hand (or your yard if need be). Too much work for me. I'd understand if there's a critical combo piece involved.
Charmbreaker Devils is now the reason I want to build this deck.
I am having a hard time evaulating him for this deck. It's a really powerful ability but I have the following concerns:
1) You have to untap with him to start getting the benefit.
2) He costs 6. That's not cheap.
3) Since we're in green, we'll probably just end up getting back a ramp spell most of the time.
4) An 8/4 or even a 12/4 is cool but do you really want to rumble with this guy if you want his draw effect? Sure you can cast Assault Strobe for lolz but if you lose him, there goes your CA engine.
"3)" is my biggest concern. My guess is that he would be much better in a build without ramp spells (read: one with mana rocks instead), which are often dead when recurred past this guy's CMC. And if I have to choose between Skyshroud Claim/Cultivate/etc. and this guy? I'll take the ramp. Izzet, Boros and mono-red will be all over this guy though.
What are you tucking? Riftsweeper doesn't hit the command zone, which is actually a different place than "exile". Otherwise, it's cool to get exiled stuff back in your library but you still have to work to get it into your hand (or your yard if need be). Too much work for me. I'd understand if there's a critical combo piece involved.
Riftsweeper was used with Astral Slide a bit. In a UWG blink deck you blink him out, and blink out an enemies creature, since you control both triggers, you return the sweeper first, he triggers, and you tuck their guy. Replace with any blink effect (mistmeadow witch) for edh use.
More on Seedborn Muse. I'm going to be rebuilding my Riku Deck more creature heavy with an emphasis on championing creatures.
You play a champion creature (Wormfang Drake) stack triggers riku, with champion on top. Champion your ETB creature (eternal witness). Pay the Riku copy. Have the copy drake Champion the real drake. Witness returns, copy. Use Crystal Shard. Bounce the drake Copy. real drake returns, eats witness. Copy with riku, copy eats drake. Witness returns, copy with riku (etc).
Seedborn muse works well with these tactics to allow your crystal shard to wreck havoc with champion creatures, allowing multiple ETB triggers each turn with Riku. Likewise, Cauldron of Souls + sac outlet + graft/oran-rief/Melira the outcast would work also for abusing seedborn every turn.
Kiki-Jiki can also use championing creatures to effect. Copy a champion to eat the champion, releasing the ETB creature, at EOT the token dies, releasing the champion. It seems counter-intuitive to just copying the creature with Kiki, but works because of Riku's copy ability. Using Kiki on a witness gives you a witness trigger, releasing a real witness from under a champion gives you the opportunity to copy with Riku. Other copy abilities are also insane (say, Doubling Season). With season out, copying a witness with Kiki-Jiki gives you two ETB triggers. Copying the drake gives you two champion effects, which cascades insanely with Riku.
(copy 1 eats drake, releases ETB, copy with riku for 2 tokens due to seasons gives 3 ETB) (copy 2 eats copy 1 releasing Drake, Drake eats witness, Riku copies drake for copies 3/4) (You have 2 new drake copies, a witness under a real drake, putting you back to step 1, minus mana. Repeat process for as much copy mana as you have.)
Yes, Riku + Doubling Season + Champion Creature is disgusting. I believe adding a Quirion Sentinel nets you infinite mana as you get 3 ETB triggers per iteration and only spend UG to copy per iteration. Fun stuff! Dual Nature would work as well, but then, you don't even need Riku. Dual Nature + champion = infinite ETB triggers.
For Tainted's post, I forgot to answer that sadly, no, rings of brighthearth cannot copy minion reflector's ability (or Riku's for that matter). Both the reflector and riku are triggered abilities (you can tell from the 'when' or 'whenever' that is used), and cannot be copied by rings. Still an awesome card though.
Bob that info is good enough to make the primer for sure. I haven't got to update it yet with Wormfang Drake and the championing stuff but if one can wrap their head around the rules it seems pretty damn abusive. Once I get my cards from the movers (note: will be busy unpacking!) I will try it in person just to make sure I understand it all.
For myself, I am going to rebuild this at some point with a heavy emphasis on instants and sorceries. Any excuse to play the new red Yawgwin. So between you and I, that's another two interations to the list. Whoa.
Also I can't believe I forgot to mention the new doubling season, Paralell Lives. It's almost all upside for Riku- it costs one less so it doesn't conflict with his mana cost, and the counter interaction doesn't really matter all that much since we're in the business of copying creatures. And playing two actually matters since it's so difficult to tutor for. What a boon for token decks, huh??
Once all of ISD is spoiled I will do a comprehensive walkthrough of playables. No card too small. At some point I'll provide in the primer a link to all such posts so players can check out easily what to grab from what set.
Obvious cards are obvious, for Riku:
-Cackling Counterpart - another riff of of Splinter Twin, without the ability to copy opponents' creatures
-Memory's Journey - alternative to Primal Command, Loaming Shaman, Reito Lantern -type cards, albeit on a much smaller scale. More playable if you play with Birthing Pod and Hibernation's End
-Snapcaster Mage - great in a deck with great instant / sorcery targets. more playable if you play in a 187 shell with Kiki-Jiki, Crystal Shard, Cloudstone Curio, Equilibrium, etc -type cards.
-Blasphemous Act - alternative to Starstorm and Chain Reaction. Most of the time, it's going to be better than either. You never play Chain Reaction if there's only a couple or few creatures that are big, and usually you cast Starstorm to wrath the board of tokens and/or a clogged up board of x/5, x/6's & etc. It's a bummer that it's a sorcery (versus Starstorm's instant speed), but this is 2011 and red is generally concerned with great sorcery speed spells, like black's share of the color pie.
-Balefire Dragon - GREAT with Sneak Attack, Through the Breach, Anger/Urabrask, the Hidden/Fervor, etc. Insane if copied with Riku and you untag with them.
-Parallel Lives - a viable alternative to Doubling Season that's better than Doubling Season in this deck. Why is that? Because you probably don't want to make a creature based on counters (G/W/B does that better), nor do you want to use many Planeswalkers in Riku to go broke with Doubling Season - Planeswalkers generally don't work that well in EDH, nor do they interact well with Riku's ability. There's better card draw available than Jace 1.0-3.0, ramp spells are better than Garruk 1.0, and Karn's not necessary in all metagames (i'm starting to use him for Torpor Orb and other problem permanents that are easily recurred over and over)
-Hinterland Harbor & Sulfur Falls - obvious is obvious. better than Shivan Oasis and Yavimaya Coast in this deck. probably better than the Karoo lands from Ravnica (unless you have a heavy landfall theme and/or turbo land based strategy - Exploration, Meloku, moon folk, Burgenoning, etc).
New cards that require a whole new take on Riku-
-Charmbreaker Devils
-Devil's Play
-Burning Vengeance
-Past in Flames
coupled with cards like...
-Recoup
-Galvanoth
Imagine a RUG deck that is based heavily on non creature spells, rather than creature spells, with Riku. Counterspells to protect riku, along with 3-5 equipment that give shroud/hexproof. Green for ramp and spicy recursion. Red for burn spells/random chance cards/etc. Subtheme of flashback and recurring spells over and over from the graveyard.
I'm not sure how good it would be, but I'm willing to try to brew this sort of take on Riku once Innistrad comes out. I'd probably stick with brewing this on Cockatrice, because I'm not sure how much I'd like playing with the paper version of it, since I don't have a lot of the cards that would go well with this strategy, but it's definitely interesting.
Here's to hoping for some great instant or sorcery or uncommon/common creatures that work well in Riku in the rest of the unspoiled Innistrad cards
P.S. I still want to play with Sneak Attack and Minion Reflector in this deck. I've changed my version dramatically as of late, just to mix it up a bit.
Imagine a RUG deck that is based heavily on non creature spells, rather than creature spells, with Riku. Counterspells to protect riku, along with 3-5 equipment that give shroud/hexproof. Green for ramp and spicy recursion. Red for burn spells/random chance cards/etc. Subtheme of flashback and recurring spells over and over from the graveyard.
I have said a couple times in this thread, and at least once in the last 15 replies, that I intend to do this. Who doesn't want to copy their Time Warp twice with Mirror Sheen and Riku? What about copying a Plow Under and telling that player to get you a snack while you play their lands for them? It's like a better Ashnod's Coupon. And with stuff like Mirari out there doubling the functionality, the deck might not even roll over and die if Riku gets dealt with. I may even start another thread for it and link it back here just to get more advice on the subject. My Johnny and Melvin really, really want to do this and once I finish my wife's deck (Rhys the Redeemed for Commander noobs, and don't forget I'm crazy busy lately- the movers are unloading my stuff to my new apartment as I type this), this is definitely my next project. If anyone else wants to get a head start, be my guest :).
And as for the thread size, remember folks, it's not the size of the thread but how you use it :cool2:. I'd like to send a very special thanks to everyone who has been involved in making this knowledge base as comprehensive as possible. I was waiting for an opportunity to make a primer on someone and Riku couldn't have showed up at a better time for me to tackle. I wish I had been able to finish it faster but when you take your wife and move 1000 miles from home, let's just say it cuts into your Magic time. Anyway, I'm sure it'll get better and better over time thanks to you guys. I don't know if it'll ever be as epic as Gaka's but maybe another thread down the road will have time for some Gaka-like gut-busting shenanigans.
If you go for a heavy them on one card type, Holistic Wisdom is a champion of turning early game ramp into late game awesomeness.
My Brother used it to great effect in a heavy sorcery Wort deck, to pitch ramp into X spells, and it will be going into my creature Riku deck to shift ramp creatures into ETB cool stuff.
An insane response to wrath effects, especially if Riku is up and you copy it (it copies the values of what you sacc'd of the original).
Imagine, you have the following board:
-2 Bogarden Hellkites
-Riku of Two Reflections
-Avenger of Zendikar out with like 13 1/2 tokens.
-2 Inferno Titans
(all fueled by ramp and Mana Reflection good times)
Some finally casts a board wipe on you. You have 3RRR+UR open. You Soulblast, copying it with Riku. That's 42 damage x 2. Pretty insane.
It's a fairly narrow card but fun to play here and there just for the massive blow out you potentially will get with it.
Imagine a RUG deck that is based heavily on non creature spells, rather than creature spells, with Riku. Counterspells to protect riku, along with 3-5 equipment that give shroud/hexproof. Green for ramp and spicy recursion. Red for burn spells/random chance cards/etc. Subtheme of flashback and recurring spells over and over from the graveyard.
This is more how my version of the deck plays out, though I left out a lot of the obvious combo stuff for meta reasons. It tends to ramp A LOT and go from an almost nonexistent board position to extremely threatening plays on a regular basis. Copying Nostalgic Dreams can be pretty backbreaking.
I do definitely want to try a more creature based plan at some point, because Sneak Attack looks like a ton of fun to play with.
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I also played a much more spell-based Riku and, interestingly enough, it turned out much stronger than my creature-based one. That's why I'm so excited to play the Devils from Innistrad. The red Yawgswin is great for this deck too.
I suggest you not only list the spell-version, SuperSonik, but play it as well. It's very powerful and also surprisingly fun to play.
Emmara is like the worst parts of Legends and Homelands got pregnant, aborted the fetus, tossed it in the trashcan, set it on fire and wrapped the corpse in a Dragon's Maze pack wrapper.
For the current incarnation of creature focused decks, has anyone thought about Flash? Get double etb effects at instant speed for a card and a discount. Seemed like a natural fit after I read the discussion in the main forum.
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Thanks Weebo, that's a good interaction. Shame Protean Hulk is banned, that'd be a lot of fun.
Somehow, I think it's OK that we're not dealing with turn 1/turn 2 kills in the format /ughHermitDruidsucks
Nice call on Flash. As a relative Magic noob compared to some of you guys, I hadn't even thought of it. You have to work a bit to make up for the card advantage but even flashing a Primeval Titan just to get two lands out is good enough on its own that it's probably worth a mention. Follow it up with a Body Double? Sweet.
So wait a minute- if I think I understand the rules right, let's say we got Riku out and some mana and we cast Flash. Flash resolves, we put FoF Sphinx onto the battlefield, its ETB triggers. Riku triggers as well and we can choose the order somewhat arbitrarily. Flash now demands payment. We refuse to pay, then the sphinx goes to the yard. We not have a FoF trigger and a Riku trigger, which will give us a token copy of our sphinx, which will trigger FoF again.
So Flash + Riku = Cast any creature you want for 1UUG at instant speed and double its ETB effect, then put the creature card in the yard for later reuse? That is some serious blowout potential right threre. Wow.
Shenanigans get laughable if you copy Flash for :symu::symr:.
You just cast Palinchron and copy it, then bounce original in to your hand and keep repeating.
but the thing is how am I bouncing it with what? because Riku only puts tokens of the card into play..
Palinchron has an activated ability to bounce itself.
To be a bit more specific, Palinchron costs 7 mana, and bounces for 4, riku copies for 2. That is a total cost of 13, and Palinchron untaps 7 lands, and the copy untaps 7 lands. That is 14 mana returned. 14-13 = net gain of 1 mana per iteration, while leaving the copy in play.
Steps to resolve with only 7 lands out (3 sources of blue, 1 green needed).
1) Pay 7 to play Palinchron. 2 triggers: stack in order of riku, palinchron (Palinchron resolves first).
2) Palinchron untaps 7 lands
3) Riku's copy resolves, pay UG to copy.
4) Copy enters, targets 7 lands to untap.
5) Bounce palinchron for 2UU
6) Tap last land for 1
7) Allow untap to resolve.
-) You have 7 untapped lands and palinchron in hand, returning you to position 1. you also have 1 and a Palinchron copy on the board. Repeat for infinite.
Retired EDH - Tibor and Lumia | [PR]Nemata |Ramirez dePietro | [C]Edric | Riku | Jenara | Lazav | Heliod | Daxos | Roon | Kozilek
Other ways of fighting graveyard shenanigans (that are often over looked) -
Desert Twister
Naturalize
etc...
Retired EDH - Tibor and Lumia | [PR]Nemata |Ramirez dePietro | [C]Edric | Riku | Jenara | Lazav | Heliod | Daxos | Roon | Kozilek
Thoughts?
A few things here:
1) Seedborn Muse is a great card. Being able to open mana on opponents turns should never be underestimated, moreso with a general that copies instants.
2)Kiki-Jiki is an awesome card, especially with all the backup creatures we'll be running. A small issue with your analysis though. Any creature you copy with Kiki-Jiki cannot be copied with Riku or Minion Reflector, the "nontoken" clause stops that.
You can get extra creatures off of champion tricks and Doubling Season though.
3)Even with the muse, Fauna Shaman is a lesser Survival of the Fittest. For people like me though, who do not have survival, she's a more than acceptable alternative. Use mainly creature mana ramp, or pair with Genesis and you can filter away less than useful mana rampers for powerful beaters. It's not something you need to do on each opponents turn though.
4)Birthing Pod is extremely powerful, many decks run it already, and you are correct in pointing out that Hibernation's End works well if you have already tailored your mana curve to fit the pod.
5)Ipromptu Rain, I'm sorry, but this just looks like the unwanted stepchild of Call of the Wild and/or Sneak Attack; both of which are far more powerful.
6)There are lots of great things that can be done with our mirror obsessed goblin, however Guilded Drake will not leave your opponents with nothing. Kiki tells you to sacrifice the creature, and you can't sacrifice a creature you don't control. Your opponents have nothing telling them to sacrifice the drake, so they'll keep it. Still, taking everything and leaving them with 3/3 flyers isn't a bad deal, just not the massive blowout you were hoping for. Combine it with Dual Nature though... and you can toast them all. This however all depends on you having the Drake on your side of the board, somehow. Kiki won't target Opponents' creatures.
7) You have enough time to copy the drake before donating it. The exchange is a triggered ability which you can respond to.
8) Riftsweeper is a card I hadn't used much before, but I am starting to think more about. It has a lot of power behind it, but would probably be better in a UWG blink deck to abuse it as a Tuck effect.
Well, Tradewind Rider has always been a powerhouse, involved in a number of rather evil combos. You can definitely add him if you're going for a combo Riku Build, but even without that he's good removal tech and good to bounce your own guys.
While copying him would allow you to activate him alone (him + copy + riku) I wouldn't really put it as "one less creature to worry about the bounce cost." That's true for only one activation, but now you have 2 of him, so you have the capability of using both...
If you are building a cheaper ETB abusing deck and your creatures are smaller and might not hold up in combat, he might be a good way to get some use from them. Same if you're building a heavy token theme deck.
EDIT:
New card, looks slightly useful.
Retired EDH - Tibor and Lumia | [PR]Nemata |Ramirez dePietro | [C]Edric | Riku | Jenara | Lazav | Heliod | Daxos | Roon | Kozilek
Thanks for contributing. I'll start by saying that I agree with most of bob's evaulations but I'll add a bit to them:
Seedborn Muse is hot stuff, but I don't play it though because I don't have a lot to do on other players' turns. If I were to include flash enablers to support it (Vedalken Orrery, Leyline of Anticipation, Winding Canyons), tappers like Tradewind Rider and Nin the Pain Artist, or simply more instants, I would have to change the deck around considerably to make it more useful. Pretty much all I have now are a few instants and Kiki-Jiki. Which is pretty much why I have the first two "generic" strategies in the primer split between a deck with Seedborn Muse and a deck without Seedborn Muse. It also shares a mana cost with Riku, which hurts its playability. I think it's a great card for sure and it's weird to think that it's not in a UG deck but this particular one wants more than just Serra's Blessing and the odd extra removal spell for a 5cmc guy. By the way, no synergy with Birthing Pod- you can only activate its ability as a sorcery, tapped or not.
Impromptu raid is cute as a slightly cheaper Lurking Predators. I think I prefer the latter. Either way, I think it's much better in a deck with even more creatures that isn't trying to toolbox them in like mine. It also gains more with library manipulation, which I don't have outside of Top and Trinket Mage to fetch it.
Wurmcoil is cool with Kiki-Jiki, Birthing Pod, and all the other recursion options we've already brought up. I should add it to the primer if it's not there. I finally got web access at my new place so I could update the primer this evening perhaps with that and all the other stuff mentioned in the last couple pages, like Tradewind Rider (definitely worth a mention in the control deck w Seedborn Muse).
What are you tucking? Riftsweeper doesn't hit the command zone, which is actually a different place than "exile". Otherwise, it's cool to get exiled stuff back in your library but you still have to work to get it into your hand (or your yard if need be). Too much work for me. I'd understand if there's a critical combo piece involved.
I am having a hard time evaulating him for this deck. It's a really powerful ability but I have the following concerns:
1) You have to untap with him to start getting the benefit.
2) He costs 6. That's not cheap.
3) Since we're in green, we'll probably just end up getting back a ramp spell most of the time.
4) An 8/4 or even a 12/4 is cool but do you really want to rumble with this guy if you want his draw effect? Sure you can cast Assault Strobe for lolz but if you lose him, there goes your CA engine.
"3)" is my biggest concern. My guess is that he would be much better in a build without ramp spells (read: one with mana rocks instead), which are often dead when recurred past this guy's CMC. And if I have to choose between Skyshroud Claim/Cultivate/etc. and this guy? I'll take the ramp. Izzet, Boros and mono-red will be all over this guy though.
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Riftsweeper was used with Astral Slide a bit. In a UWG blink deck you blink him out, and blink out an enemies creature, since you control both triggers, you return the sweeper first, he triggers, and you tuck their guy. Replace with any blink effect (mistmeadow witch) for edh use.
More on Seedborn Muse. I'm going to be rebuilding my Riku Deck more creature heavy with an emphasis on championing creatures.
You play a champion creature (Wormfang Drake) stack triggers riku, with champion on top. Champion your ETB creature (eternal witness). Pay the Riku copy. Have the copy drake Champion the real drake. Witness returns, copy. Use Crystal Shard. Bounce the drake Copy. real drake returns, eats witness. Copy with riku, copy eats drake. Witness returns, copy with riku (etc).
Seedborn muse works well with these tactics to allow your crystal shard to wreck havoc with champion creatures, allowing multiple ETB triggers each turn with Riku. Likewise, Cauldron of Souls + sac outlet + graft/oran-rief/Melira the outcast would work also for abusing seedborn every turn.
Kiki-Jiki can also use championing creatures to effect. Copy a champion to eat the champion, releasing the ETB creature, at EOT the token dies, releasing the champion. It seems counter-intuitive to just copying the creature with Kiki, but works because of Riku's copy ability. Using Kiki on a witness gives you a witness trigger, releasing a real witness from under a champion gives you the opportunity to copy with Riku. Other copy abilities are also insane (say, Doubling Season). With season out, copying a witness with Kiki-Jiki gives you two ETB triggers. Copying the drake gives you two champion effects, which cascades insanely with Riku.
(copy 1 eats drake, releases ETB, copy with riku for 2 tokens due to seasons gives 3 ETB) (copy 2 eats copy 1 releasing Drake, Drake eats witness, Riku copies drake for copies 3/4) (You have 2 new drake copies, a witness under a real drake, putting you back to step 1, minus mana. Repeat process for as much copy mana as you have.)
Yes, Riku + Doubling Season + Champion Creature is disgusting. I believe adding a Quirion Sentinel nets you infinite mana as you get 3 ETB triggers per iteration and only spend UG to copy per iteration. Fun stuff!
Dual Nature would work as well, but then, you don't even need Riku. Dual Nature + champion = infinite ETB triggers.
For Tainted's post, I forgot to answer that sadly, no, rings of brighthearth cannot copy minion reflector's ability (or Riku's for that matter). Both the reflector and riku are triggered abilities (you can tell from the 'when' or 'whenever' that is used), and cannot be copied by rings. Still an awesome card though.
Retired EDH - Tibor and Lumia | [PR]Nemata |Ramirez dePietro | [C]Edric | Riku | Jenara | Lazav | Heliod | Daxos | Roon | Kozilek
For myself, I am going to rebuild this at some point with a heavy emphasis on instants and sorceries. Any excuse to play the new red Yawgwin. So between you and I, that's another two interations to the list. Whoa.
Also I can't believe I forgot to mention the new doubling season, Paralell Lives. It's almost all upside for Riku- it costs one less so it doesn't conflict with his mana cost, and the counter interaction doesn't really matter all that much since we're in the business of copying creatures. And playing two actually matters since it's so difficult to tutor for. What a boon for token decks, huh??
Once all of ISD is spoiled I will do a comprehensive walkthrough of playables. No card too small. At some point I'll provide in the primer a link to all such posts so players can check out easily what to grab from what set.
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:symu::symr::symg:Riku of Two Reflections (ETB toolbox)
:symw::symb::symr:Kaalia of the Vast Reanimator
:symw::symu::symb::symr::symg:Karona's Proliferating Allies
Teferi, mage of Zhalfir
And every other thread in the multiplayer forum. Looks like Sonik is providing a vital public service.
-Cackling Counterpart - another riff of of Splinter Twin, without the ability to copy opponents' creatures
-Memory's Journey - alternative to Primal Command, Loaming Shaman, Reito Lantern -type cards, albeit on a much smaller scale. More playable if you play with Birthing Pod and Hibernation's End
-Snapcaster Mage - great in a deck with great instant / sorcery targets. more playable if you play in a 187 shell with Kiki-Jiki, Crystal Shard, Cloudstone Curio, Equilibrium, etc -type cards.
-Blasphemous Act - alternative to Starstorm and Chain Reaction. Most of the time, it's going to be better than either. You never play Chain Reaction if there's only a couple or few creatures that are big, and usually you cast Starstorm to wrath the board of tokens and/or a clogged up board of x/5, x/6's & etc. It's a bummer that it's a sorcery (versus Starstorm's instant speed), but this is 2011 and red is generally concerned with great sorcery speed spells, like black's share of the color pie.
-Balefire Dragon - GREAT with Sneak Attack, Through the Breach, Anger/Urabrask, the Hidden/Fervor, etc. Insane if copied with Riku and you untag with them.
-Parallel Lives - a viable alternative to Doubling Season that's better than Doubling Season in this deck. Why is that? Because you probably don't want to make a creature based on counters (G/W/B does that better), nor do you want to use many Planeswalkers in Riku to go broke with Doubling Season - Planeswalkers generally don't work that well in EDH, nor do they interact well with Riku's ability. There's better card draw available than Jace 1.0-3.0, ramp spells are better than Garruk 1.0, and Karn's not necessary in all metagames (i'm starting to use him for Torpor Orb and other problem permanents that are easily recurred over and over)
-Hinterland Harbor & Sulfur Falls - obvious is obvious. better than Shivan Oasis and Yavimaya Coast in this deck. probably better than the Karoo lands from Ravnica (unless you have a heavy landfall theme and/or turbo land based strategy - Exploration, Meloku, moon folk, Burgenoning, etc).
New cards that require a whole new take on Riku-
-Charmbreaker Devils
-Devil's Play
-Burning Vengeance
-Past in Flames
coupled with cards like...
-Recoup
-Galvanoth
Imagine a RUG deck that is based heavily on non creature spells, rather than creature spells, with Riku. Counterspells to protect riku, along with 3-5 equipment that give shroud/hexproof. Green for ramp and spicy recursion. Red for burn spells/random chance cards/etc. Subtheme of flashback and recurring spells over and over from the graveyard.
I'm not sure how good it would be, but I'm willing to try to brew this sort of take on Riku once Innistrad comes out. I'd probably stick with brewing this on Cockatrice, because I'm not sure how much I'd like playing with the paper version of it, since I don't have a lot of the cards that would go well with this strategy, but it's definitely interesting.
Here's to hoping for some great instant or sorcery or uncommon/common creatures that work well in Riku in the rest of the unspoiled Innistrad cards
P.S. I still want to play with Sneak Attack and Minion Reflector in this deck. I've changed my version dramatically as of late, just to mix it up a bit.
I suppose I cant complain that my Jenara is up to 380 replies at 3rd thanks to several recent followers of her.
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[Modern] Allies
I have said a couple times in this thread, and at least once in the last 15 replies, that I intend to do this. Who doesn't want to copy their Time Warp twice with Mirror Sheen and Riku? What about copying a Plow Under and telling that player to get you a snack while you play their lands for them? It's like a better Ashnod's Coupon. And with stuff like Mirari out there doubling the functionality, the deck might not even roll over and die if Riku gets dealt with. I may even start another thread for it and link it back here just to get more advice on the subject. My Johnny and Melvin really, really want to do this and once I finish my wife's deck (Rhys the Redeemed for Commander noobs, and don't forget I'm crazy busy lately- the movers are unloading my stuff to my new apartment as I type this), this is definitely my next project. If anyone else wants to get a head start, be my guest :).
And as for the thread size, remember folks, it's not the size of the thread but how you use it :cool2:. I'd like to send a very special thanks to everyone who has been involved in making this knowledge base as comprehensive as possible. I was waiting for an opportunity to make a primer on someone and Riku couldn't have showed up at a better time for me to tackle. I wish I had been able to finish it faster but when you take your wife and move 1000 miles from home, let's just say it cuts into your Magic time. Anyway, I'm sure it'll get better and better over time thanks to you guys. I don't know if it'll ever be as epic as Gaka's but maybe another thread down the road will have time for some Gaka-like gut-busting shenanigans.
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My Brother used it to great effect in a heavy sorcery Wort deck, to pitch ramp into X spells, and it will be going into my creature Riku deck to shift ramp creatures into ETB cool stuff.
Retired EDH - Tibor and Lumia | [PR]Nemata |Ramirez dePietro | [C]Edric | Riku | Jenara | Lazav | Heliod | Daxos | Roon | Kozilek
:symu::symr: Melek WheelStorm
:symw::symg: Trostani Enchantress (updated 6/5)
:symg::symr::symu: Unexpected Results.dec
Thada Adel Stax WIP
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[Modern] Allies
Soulblast
An insane response to wrath effects, especially if Riku is up and you copy it (it copies the values of what you sacc'd of the original).
Imagine, you have the following board:
-2 Bogarden Hellkites
-Riku of Two Reflections
-Avenger of Zendikar out with like 13 1/2 tokens.
-2 Inferno Titans
(all fueled by ramp and Mana Reflection good times)
Some finally casts a board wipe on you. You have 3RRR+UR open. You Soulblast, copying it with Riku. That's 42 damage x 2. Pretty insane.
It's a fairly narrow card but fun to play here and there just for the massive blow out you potentially will get with it.
This is more how my version of the deck plays out, though I left out a lot of the obvious combo stuff for meta reasons. It tends to ramp A LOT and go from an almost nonexistent board position to extremely threatening plays on a regular basis. Copying Nostalgic Dreams can be pretty backbreaking.
I do definitely want to try a more creature based plan at some point, because Sneak Attack looks like a ton of fun to play with.
I suggest you not only list the spell-version, SuperSonik, but play it as well. It's very powerful and also surprisingly fun to play.
Retired EDH - Tibor and Lumia | [PR]Nemata |Ramirez dePietro | [C]Edric | Riku | Jenara | Lazav | Heliod | Daxos | Roon | Kozilek
Somehow, I think it's OK that we're not dealing with turn 1/turn 2 kills in the format /ughHermitDruidsucks
Nice call on Flash. As a relative Magic noob compared to some of you guys, I hadn't even thought of it. You have to work a bit to make up for the card advantage but even flashing a Primeval Titan just to get two lands out is good enough on its own that it's probably worth a mention. Follow it up with a Body Double? Sweet.
So wait a minute- if I think I understand the rules right, let's say we got Riku out and some mana and we cast Flash. Flash resolves, we put FoF Sphinx onto the battlefield, its ETB triggers. Riku triggers as well and we can choose the order somewhat arbitrarily. Flash now demands payment. We refuse to pay, then the sphinx goes to the yard. We not have a FoF trigger and a Riku trigger, which will give us a token copy of our sphinx, which will trigger FoF again.
So Flash + Riku = Cast any creature you want for 1UUG at instant speed and double its ETB effect, then put the creature card in the yard for later reuse? That is some serious blowout potential right threre. Wow.
Shenanigans get laughable if you copy Flash for :symu::symr:.
:symu::symr: Melek WheelStorm
:symw::symg: Trostani Enchantress (updated 6/5)
:symg::symr::symu: Unexpected Results.dec
Thada Adel Stax WIP