My lands are:
1 Seat of the Synod
5 Island
2 Plains
4 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
4 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Academy Ruins
1 Wasteland
2 Tolaria West
I suppose I could drop an island and a Misty. O ring is great suggestion, I'll definitely add it. Isn't bridge a bit redundant with moat? I could drop Moat, though I'll have to find something to replace it... Maybe a 4th JTMS, so I have 4 CMC spells.
I would strongly reccomend Seat, I LOVE that card. I have seen a lot of Choke, so it let's me produce U without worry.
My sb is:
3 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Leyline of the Void
3 Dark Confidant
1 Energy Flux
1 Seal of Clensing
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 O Ring
2 Perish
My lands are:
1 Seat of the Synod
5 Island
2 Plains
4 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
4 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Academy Ruins
1 Wasteland
2 Tolaria West
I suppose I could drop an island and a Misty. O ring is great suggestion, I'll definitely add it. Isn't bridge a bit redundant with moat? I could drop Moat, though I'll have to find something to replace it... Maybe a 4th JTMS, so I have 4 CMC spells.
I would strongly reccomend Seat, I LOVE that card. I have seen a lot of Choke, so it let's me produce U without worry.
My sb is:
3 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Leyline of the Void
3 Dark Confidant
1 Energy Flux
1 Seal of Clensing
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 O Ring
2 Perish
I'm sorry, I didn't think about Moat and Ensnaring, I was thinking of only one.
I've been toying with Tolaria as a way to get EE, Wasteland, and Ruins.
I really wish we had more playable 3 CMC cards, KotR, GSZ (for goyf, Teeg, or Pridemage) , Choke. Maverick is our worst MU IMO, as most builds have 3-4 of all those cards
I have 6 leylines in my sb... Thoughts? They usually come in over Jace, as he is too slow vs Combo and burn, only meh vs Gate-esque decks, and dead vs dredge.
EDIT: I splash B for Bob and Leyline... What about a green splash for goyf maybe and Kgrip?
Yes, I meant Void. I already splash B to have a 3rd color for EE and Bob. Can you post your sb? I have 4 Bullets, 2 Choke, 3 Bob, and 6 Leylines (3 of each, sanctity and void).
Maybe you should reread my statement about Maverick. It's the 3-4 Choke, and 4 GZS fetching Goyf, Teeg, or Pridemage, plus KotR.
Hello all, I'm new to Thopterbalance. I'm a former UW Stoneblade player but the banning of Mental Misstep (even if I welcomed it) has forced me to find a new deck, and Counterbalance/Top is something that I've always wanted to run. It did help that I already had majority of the cards.
Dismember is something that I've been testing. It's obviously better with a splash of black (wish I had Underground Seas), but it is a three casting cost spell that really just costs 1 and can act as STP #5. It's been decent so far.
Also, my sideboard is an absolute mess. I have no idea how to make a good one. Any help would be much appreciated.
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I think 4 SFM is far too many, it's an extra, not a needed part. You will also notice I have a huge toolbox... That's pretty common for this deak. EE is awesome, definitely play it. I also prefer Snare to Counterspell. Crucible is nice vs wasteland, good with our wasteland (if you run it) and has CMC 3. Moat is a boss... You need it ASAP. With EE, you will want a splash for a 3rd color... I like black for bob myself
Great to see so much life in the thread, welcome to everyone new to the deck/thread
@CursedOne
"i don't fear so much enemy equipment we have thopter , with humility or without it you can easily avoid attack sacrifacing token."
Two things here. First, if you have ThopterSword going, Humility is rather irrelevant anyways, only Bob and Lord of Atlantis comes to mind as things the Humility makes a difference against if you make 5 thopters a-turn. And the opponent drawing an extra card or two each turn isn't all that important since few cards stop the Foundry and the tokens it has already made. The equipment this deck actively struggle with is Sword of Fire and Ice, and not even a million thopters + Humility can stop that from connecting with you. That card really is a pain, though manageable.
You say you only run 20 lands, and as you say, that's dangerously close to too few. I'd actually go as far as saying that is too few, I'd even say 21 is too few. Consider 22 lands, and please at least run 21. If you're not already running it, I like the singleton Tolaria West. That is, if you have a singleton Wasteland to go with it.
You only run one Peacekeeper in your sideboard. If you're gonna run him, I'm not saying you have to, I think you should run at least two. That makes it an actual plan in game 2 and 3, not something you may randomly draw into against Maverick or Merfolk.
@Raggedjoe
-You run zero Swords to Plowshares? Is that a typo somewhere in there? I really can't understand that if that is the case, no wonder you have problems dealing with Knight of the Reliquary. Have you tested with any StPs?
-You only run three Tops, and as I've argued on before, you want to see this card every game, and multiplies isn't a problem. To say that you find 3 Tops to be enough puzzles me... Don't you want to see this card every game? Or do you have a problem with drawing too many? I know my answer to those questions, and since our lists are very similar, I'm curious to know why you seem to feel differently
-You run a singleton Seat of the Synod as one of your lands. I did so in my firsts lists of the deck, but ended up removing it when I at one point added Serenity to the sideboard. I hated how was vulnerable to Quasali Pridemage and Anchient Grudge, though I definitely appreciated it's natural resistance to Choke. Sometimes I sacrificed it to make a thopter, but I almost never tutored it up with Enlightened Tutor. I've found a couple of times in later date that I wanted to do that, but that was often with bad hands that probably would go nowhere even if I had the Seat in the deck. If I move up to three Foundries after Misstep gets banned on MODO, I might give it a spin. For the moment, I'd like to know if you too have a problem with Q-Mage and/or Grudge blowing it up?
-I'm struggling to understand why you want to play any of the Leylines, yet alone run 6. They're dead in multiplies, and there are very few matchups where they have an application. Leyline of the Void is great against Dredge and Reanimator if you have it in your opening hand, but since we run Enlightened Tutor, it's way better to run some singleton pieces that are cheap. The ones you list in your last post are the ones I'd suggest, and unless you have the space or you believe the meta demands it, I'd only run two pieces. I personally run Nihil Spellbomb and Tormod's Crypt, but I'm thinking of trying out the Wheel instead of Spellbomb. I advise you to test all three options, against both Reanimator and Dredge
-Regarding your manabase, I see you have gone down to 22 lands. I think that's better than 24, I personally run 23. I like your manabase, not all that surprising since the only difference is that I run 2 more fetches and no Seat. I think you should consider running another fetch, either cutting an Island, the Seat or just playing 23 lands. Tolaria West and Wasteland makes up for land-heavy draws, and Top should make sure you generally avoid those. I feel comfortable running such a high amount of lands, since most decks run Wasteland, don't allow you to stumble on your mana-development since they're so fast or are controlling so you want to assemble a manabase to be able to cast and protect your spells reliably
-I suggest running an Aura of Silence in the SB as an additional out to Choke and 3-drop. WW is kinda tough, but not intolerable.
-Lastly, you say you tested all day online. Since MM isn't banned on MTGO, I assume this was on Workstation or similar? If it's on MODO on the other hand, it had been great if you could say your username, since some live discussion on the deck is very helpful for all parties involved
@-v3n0m-
"So how is old ThopterTop performing in the new meta w/o MM?
Id like to run it again if its still viable, has anyone done testing/used it in a small/medium local? "
I can't say for sure how it will fare in the new meta, but since I'm of the opinion that it was good beforeMental Misstep got banned, I definitely believe it will do great now. I will continue to play it a lot online when the banning is in effect there, so I will get you some results when that happens (if you're still interested by then)
@Grand Superior
I like a lot of things about the list. What I don't like is:
-playing the full playset of Stoneforge Mystic. Drawing two can often be migitated since you have two equipments and Squire is kinda handy, but drawing three is just awful a lot of the time. You want to see this card, but it's not neccesarrily vital to your gameplan, and multiplies often suck. I'd say it's a classic 3-of
-playing no Moat. Most people who don't play Moat play Humility instead, but you seem to be content with just having Ensnaring Bridge. I can understand not being able to afford Moat, but if that isn't the case I urge you to play Moat, at least try it. The card is a gigantic roadblock and counters JTMS, GSZ for 3 and Natural Order with Enlightened Tutor
-playing just one Plains. You don't run any Karakas to compensate for this either. Considering that you don't run Moat/Humility, this is sort of understandable, but since you run no Seal of Cleansing in the sideboard I think you'll find Choke to be a giant pain in the a##. You do run Counterspell, so I see the need to have a lot of blue mana availebale, but if your manabase is built with little to no testing behind it, I would strongly consider starting out with a manabase consisting of two Plains
-Your sideboard is kinda loose, but you seem to already be aware of that
@Oatus
Seems good, a couple of questions/notes:
-I kinda like the split between Spell Snare and Counterspell. It's the classic thing where you show your opponent one counterspell and he plays around that for the rest of the game. Singleton counterspells have a lot of value in that sense
-You run Humility over Moat. Care to explain why?
-You play Volcanic Island, yet play no Blood Moon in the sideboard...If you're gonna play R, I strongly suggest that card, since Deedstill is this deck's worst matchup. As an aside, I find Maverick to be decent, if not good matchup. RaggedJoe, who suggested this was out worst, may think so because he runs no Swords to Plowshares (which still kinda baffles me)
-You list "aflux" in your sideboard. Is that Aura Flux? Or Energy Flux, like the traditional choice is?
-Similar thing with "timely". Is that Timely Reinforcements? If so, why? I suggest you use 5 minutes more to type out the names in your decklist(s), so that you avoid the very unnecessary process of other people double-checking which cards you mean
-I like the idea of having a third Enlightened Tutor in the sideboard (not that I haven't though about it before), but I think it's a better idea to include it in the main, then side it out if need be. When I ran three ETs, I rarely did not side out the third copy
@RPrajzner
As for the whole idea of topics, I don't think that will work out. I know I am tired of it already
Regarding Dismember, I'd say it's not the worst idea out there. It's a lot worse than StP in most situations, it's a lot like Path to Exile in the degree of drop-off in power, except it costs "three" so you can counter more stuff with Counterbalance. If you feel the need to have more removal, I'd say Oblivion Ring is better, but feel free to prove me wrong.
If somebody is planning on running green for art/ench - removal: Krosan Grip is a better choice than Nature's Claim. More people will be running Counterbalance, probably a lot more judging by these forums and the data from SCG-events (I believe I saw no Counterbalance-decks listed in recent events)
For the record, I think it's better to just run Seal of Cleansing and/or Aura of Silence. There are better colors to splash (#cough# Bob! #cough#)
As for my report on the last two matches in the Daily, I'm not so sure I will put them down on paper in the immediate future. It sure is a lot of work, and I should probably put that work into studying instead
I've argued with people over the number of cards in a deck many times, and I feel that having a high number of "good cards" is better than having a small number of "really good" cards. I laugh at the people who argue that with a smaller deck you're more likely to draw what you need, because if you get in that situation you're gonna NOT end up drawing it many many more times than you would.
I really need to get my hands on Underground Seas to be able to splash for Perish and to be able to adequately support Engineered Explosives, which I really need to have in my list. Sideboard's still rather uninspired, I feel, but I don't know what to do with it.
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My landbase is currently in flux. I started at 25, I've been experimenting back and forth really. I think less than 22 is bad, but I am not set on how many to run. I think im going to go back up one or two though. The structure would be generally the same as what you are talking a out if I add more back in. Seat is there because it's won me games vs Choke.
I see a lot of Burn and TES, which is the reason for the Leyline of Sanctity. They generally come in over Jace. I just have trouble keeping up with those decks. I'm also thinking about trying a straight life gain card... Whitesun's Passadge or Rest for the Weary. Both of those cards are remarkable CA vs Burn/TES.
Aura of Silence is nice, I think I'll try it out.
Leyline of the Void is what I happen to have on hand.
My local store has an online league, which is what I was talking about
Sorry, but why you want to use Moat over Humility, when close to every deck with green in it runs GSZ? That's the question in my point of view.
CC of 3 is the most complicated slot for this deck and will always find Qasali Pridemage aka several copies of Disenchant even pre board?
Is it just of Goblins? I don't think Merfolk is going to be big without Mental Misstep .... but it's just my opinion .... also most decks searching equipments choose a sword with protection from green - in that case Sword of Fire and Ice isn't that main player, isn't it?
Well, I'm little bit confused cause of this thread
"CC of 3 is the most complicated slot for this deck and will always find Qasali Pridemage aka several copies of Disenchant even pre board?"
Is this a statement, or a question? Not that important really, I do agree that spells costing 3 are more problematic than the ones that cost 0, 1 or 2, but that's the case for most decks playing Counterbalance. 3, 4 and 5 are are all CCs that you need a little luck or set-up to counter, but it's not undoable. As for "always find Quasali Pridemage", I can agree to that too, somewhat at least. The thing is though, that GSZ and Pridemage exists isn't all that important. Sure, sometimes your Moat gets blown up, and you have to play the rest of the match fair. That's against some green decks though, and sometimes Force of Will shows up anyway. The rest of the time though, non-utility-creatures your opponent controls that don't fly, do nothing. You've dealt with everyTarmogoyf, Batterskull, Sword, Wild Nacatl, Goblin Piledriver and Lord of Atlantis out there, the list goes on and on. Creatures like Knight of the Reliquary and Mother of Runes matter little to nothing, because you just don't care what your opponent does unless he plays a Quasali Pridemage, a flyer or Vindicate. Post-board, Krosan Grip often shows up to spoil the party, but in game 1 Moat is golden against most G decks and sick against Merfolks and Goblins.
As for your other point on the decline Merfolk...This naturally depends on meta to meta, but Merfolk is the most popular deck in the SCG-tournaments, and as a matter-of-fact, they were on the decline before the banning of Mental Misstepbecause of Mental Misstep. That was almost certainly due to the up-spring of UW Stoneblade decks where Stoneforge Mystic presented a major problem for 'folk. Ironic, I know
You are indeed right that Swords with protection from green are the most common, but that includes Sword of Body and Mind. Also, "most common" just means that decks playing one Sword would usually play Sword of Feast and Famine. For the decks playing two, Sword of Fire and Ice is the most natural choice to supplement SoFaF.
Last, but not least, Humility is a really sad card. It doesn't deal with the creatures that are looking to kill you, and sucks against equipment. It just makes them into 1/1s so that they kill you a little slower. Cute, but not really what you look for in a 4-drop in Legacy.
@Grand Superior
List looks really good. As you say, Engineered Explosives should get in the as soon as possible, along with some Volcanic Islands or Underground Seas. The Tolaria West strikes me as odd since you run no Wasteland (and no EE yet), played enough to say how it has performed without these cards?
My feelings on Humility instead of Moat should be pretty clear, but each to his own. If it's not an economical issue, and if you haven't tried, I strongly suggest trying Moat instead.
@Raggedjoe
Sorry for the confusion on Swords to Plowshares, I got too caught up in post #254. There you are playing no Swords, and I'd really like to know why? As for your more recent decklist, it seems good, except for any critique I may have made in my last post (like 3 Tops).
Regarding struggling with Burn and TES, I really can't identify myself with that. Both those decks have huge issues dealing with Counterbalance. If you're going to add cards to deal with those matchups, I suggest Spell Pierce, and Warmth for Burn specifically. I never got as far as trying CoP: Red over Warmth in the sideboard, but you may want to try that instead. Testing will tell. The reason I don't run Ethersworn Canonist in the sideboard is the same as why I run no Warmth: I'm just that comfortable with the matchup, and a Counterbalance will do the same, if not better, a lot of the time.
In other news, the Legacy-Dailies on MTGO are sort of struggling to fire. I'm not sure why, since Modern seems to have been a big fluke online after the Pro-tour, but hopefully Legacy will regain some popularity when the MM-banning is put in effect. That will be 13.10, and then I will finally decide what my lists will look like post-MM
I've argued with people over the number of cards in a deck many times, and I feel that having a high number of "good cards" is better than having a small number of "really good" cards. I laugh at the people who argue that with a smaller deck you're more likely to draw what you need, because if you get in that situation you're gonna NOT end up drawing it many many more times than you would.
@randomdork
Again, I can agree on some of the things you say. Humilityis harder to remove. That doesn't mean either enchantment is easy to remove though, especially game 1.
But the reason this deck plays Humility and/or Moat isn't because they're hard to remove. It's the effect the enchantment provides. That effect is undoubtedly different between the two, and I am very much of the opinion that "Creatures without flying can't attack" is the best. Since you apparently have read at least some of the thread I am sure you know why, so I won't have to repeat myself yet again.
While different metas have different popular decks, I will again repeat the Merfolk is the biggest deck in the SCG-series, and Moat is a lot better than Humility in that matchup. Same goes for Zoo, and in my opinion even against decks that play Green Sun's Zenith. Your opinion may naturally differ, I'm sure you have a lot of games against GW Maverick under your belt to have forged your opinion.
"Vedalken Shackles" target="blank">Vedalken ShacklesI've had this card in the SB from time to time, but I rarely gotten to side it in. I think that's just one big coincidence though, it's not like I'm hating on the card when I'm playing it. The end-result it unfortunately that I don't have a ton of input on the card, other than I found it often a tad slow against Zoo, and a little too unreliable since Krosan Grip at the end of your turn can lead to a blowout."
I assume it's the above that you're referring to. As you can see, I'm not of the opinion that the card is bad, I'm just saying that my experience with the card has shown it too be a little slow, and vulnerable removal. I think, in retrospect, that "blowout" is too big a word for what happens when Shackles gets destroyed at the end of your turn, but it certainly isn't nice. Moat does indeed have the same vulnerability to Krosan Grip, but so does Humility and pretty much every other enchantment and artifact. This is why I play Peacekeeper in my sideboard instead, and Perish to deal specifically with the decks that play Green Sun's Zenith.
"I wouldn't stick to Moat"
I'm just curious, since this seems like a weird way to phrase it. Are you actually playing this deck? If so, have you tested both cards in question?
@CursedOne
I can't find your list anywhere in this thread, which would be helpful when looking at your manabase. I may just be bad at the internetz though, sorry if I have just done a sloppy job searching.
As for running just 20 lands, you can't let yourself be biased by one day of playtesting where everything went smoothly mana-wise. Finding the right amount of lands for a deck is a very delicate process, where people often do the wrong things for the wrong reasons, sometimes do the right thing for the wrong reasons and very rarely do the right thing for the right reasons. Variance will make sure every player has a different perspective on how good for example 22 lands are, and why. My point is that you are running at least one fewer land than pretty much every other list, based on 10 matches or something. That's just being the victim of results-based thinking. Please include another land.
For the record, I'm not claiming to have the right amount of lands for the right reason, since I'm not sitting with the fact-sheet on Magic. What I do claim is that I believe I'm playing the right amount of lands for the right reasons. The "reasons" pretty much just being having played a ton with the deck.
@Raggedjoe
Meant to comment on this in my last post, but I forgot. You're running 61 cards in your last list, and I most certainly hope I don't have to derail the thread explaining why that's just plain stupid
I've argued with people over the number of cards in a deck many times, and I feel that having a high number of "good cards" is better than having a small number of "really good" cards. I laugh at the people who argue that with a smaller deck you're more likely to draw what you need, because if you get in that situation you're gonna NOT end up drawing it many many more times than you would.
You're siding in Peacekeeper when they keep their removal for Mystic/Batterskull .... uhmmm, okay.
Please just think over it .... Snapcaster Mage, Qasali Pridemage, Vendilion Clique, Dark Confidant, Goblin Welder, Tombstalker, Knight of the Reliquary (Wastelands), even Argothian Enchantress, Reanimator and Elves with Emrakul .... not that good news for Moat, but if your meta is just Merfolk, Goblins and Zoo please enjoy playing it .... it's your business =)
In my humble opinion it's just the question what the majority is playing =)
you beat me too it.
Yes free wins against some decks can be nice but i feel that humility give you real nice utility. plus the only real free win is merfolk cause siege gang, lavamancer and quasli laugh at your moat.
Also i think we should consider changing our 3 jace count to 2 jace and 1 elspeth. I have tested this and her interaction with humility is just oppressing. I also run 2 stoneforges and a batterskull in my list, and it is a house doping down a batterskull after humility, you can almost not lose that game against any strategy that turns guys sideways. Just because humility has some downsides that moat doesn't have doesn't mean that we cant sculpt our deck to capitalize on these.
I feel that this deck should error on the side of using humility and depending on the meta use moat if its appropriate. Since its better against a larger variety of decks where moat shines in a few match-ups and can be lackluster in others.
im sorry but the halo isn't really an answer to Progenitus, they still can attack you. It will prevent the damage but you will still have to sacrifice 6 things to bide his appetite. In both cases Ensnaring bridge and humility are your go to answers... also if your really scared of these monsters just put in a metamorph in your side. but i dont think you need it
@Oatus
Seems good, a couple of questions/notes:
-I kinda like the split between Spell Snare and Counterspell. It's the classic thing where you show your opponent one counterspell and he plays around that for the rest of the game. Singleton counterspells have a lot of value in that sense
-You run Humility over Moat. Care to explain why?
-You play Volcanic Island, yet play no Blood Moon in the sideboard...If you're gonna play R, I strongly suggest that card, since Deedstill is this deck's worst matchup. As an aside, I find Maverick to be decent, if not good matchup. RaggedJoe, who suggested this was out worst, may think so because he runs no Swords to Plowshares (which still kinda baffles me)
-You list "aflux" in your sideboard. Is that Aura Flux? Or Energy Flux, like the traditional choice is?
-Similar thing with "timely". Is that Timely Reinforcements? If so, why? I suggest you use 5 minutes more to type out the names in your decklist(s), so that you avoid the very unnecessary process of other people double-checking which cards you mean
-I like the idea of having a third Enlightened Tutor in the sideboard (not that I haven't though about it before), but I think it's a better idea to include it in the main, then side it out if need be. When I ran three ETs, I rarely did [I]not[/I] side out the third copy
counterspell/spell snare: variety is good, but i'll get to why i have the 1/1 split in a bit
Humility is just better than Moat right now [not close] because of the number of tombstalkers, vendilion cliques, spellstutter sprites and emrakuls floating around, as well as shutting off pridemage
There is literally zero lands/deedstill in my area, but i have had a B2B floating around in and out of my sideboard forever
It was supposed to be Energy Flux, and Timely Reinforcements [which is astually almost a double time walk against zoo]
E tutor in the sideboard: I wanted 15 1 CMC spells, but also wanted enough blue cards that I could safely double force, this is why I moved a tutor to the SB and ran a spell snare instead of 2x Counterspell [i always want access to 3 tutors]
Ah, the old Humility versus Moat debate. Gotta love it
To start of, I'd like to make it clear that you probably should, in most cases, play one, not both, in the maindeck. Four mana is a lot in Legacy, chances are you can't afford to clog up your hand with 4-drops. If you do, you're probably playing against control, and the enchantments mostly suck and Jace, the Mind Sculptor is your go-to 4-drop. You always have the option of playing the other one in the sideboard, if you want so badly to have access to both effects. "All creatures lose all abilities and are 1/1"
This makes every threat your opponent plays into a 1/1 for as long as you have Humility in play. They are still threats, they do not suddenly go away or become irrelevant. They will still destroy your JTMS, then kill you. Equipment that your opponent controls will not be affected, and take you down in short order if it's present. This is especially true for Sword of Fire and Ice, and almost as much for Sword of Body and Mind.
What you need to do then is naturally to make sure you have your own 1/1s in play, or dwarf their 1/1s by cheating trough equipment. Stoneforge Mystic brings Batterskull to the table, Thopter Foundry brings endless 1/1s and some lists even play Elspeth.
My problem with Humility is that it requires other cards to be truly effective. It's a 4-drop in Legacy that isn't good unless you can support it with either:
-a, an engine that should win you the game against creature-decks by itself
-b, another 4-drop
-c, a 2-drop that requires another two mana to work, and would probably win you the game single-handedly unless it got destroyed
You're relying on your win-conditions to make sure your threat-answer actually answers threats. Why not just play your win-conditions?
You list a bunch of creatures that see play play in Legacy, to a greater or lesser extent. Do you want to make this into a contest on listing what cards the other enchantment doesn't stop? Do you want me to link you to a list of every legal card in Legacy? Really?
Humility doesn't stop your opponent's threats, it makes them less threatening. Which is great when all your opponent can cough up is one big fatty like Emrakul or Jin-Gitaxias. Too bad you won't get to play it since your hand or board is reduced to nothing.
I sort of get the feeling you claim the meta is shifting to better suit Humility. If so, I'm curious to know why? You mention Spellstutter Sprite, and I believe there are 0 Spellstutter Sprites, and 0 Emrakuls too actually, in the most recent SCG-top16. There are also just 3 Tombstalkers, 6 Vendillion Cliques and 2 Pridemages (3 more in a Zoo-SB, don't ask me why it's not main). It bears mentioning that there also 0 Stoneforge Mystics in the top16, which I find peculiar.
As for Humility/Moat against Elves, Moat is far better. Making a ton of 1/1-dorks into 1/1s is a very bad way of stopping them from beating you to death.
I am not claiming Humility is a bad card. I don't believe you are claiming Moat is a bad card either. But you realistically have to choose either one, and I hope I've made it clear why I've chosen Moat, and why I think you should do it too. Metagames matter somewhat, but unless there are just stupid amounts of Reanimator and SneakShow, I can't agree on Humility being the right choice.
Lastly, I'd like to know how many of you have actually played Moat, in this deck, in a real tournament? If you haven't, I suggest you do before setting your mind on what card is "clearly better".
@randomdork
Peacekeeper against GW Maverick, Merfolk and Elves is fantastic. If people don't know about the SB-plan of creatures, and have artifact/enchantment-removal in the sideboard, they wouldn't be all that clever if they keep in their Swords to Plowshares. Granted, some people aren't all that clever, but they will still be reducing the amount of StPs. Also, you have something called Counterbalance, and it + Sensei's Divining Top kinda makes Swords to Plowshares bad. Mental Misstep made this plan even better, but that is leaving MODO very soon.
@CursedOne
Seems alright, though a couple of very weird things:
-You play Ensnaring Bridge, HumilityandMoat. I can't imagine that you can afford to play such a high number of lock-down enchantments, when you really should at max need two.
-You play three Plains and a Karakas, with the norm being two (strictly) white sources. Why do you feel your deck has such a great need of white mana? The consequence of this is that you run fewer blue sources, just two basic islands for instance, and I'm struggling to believe that you can reliably play Counterbalance on turn 2 which is the time it is at it's best.
-You are still just playing 20 land.
-You are playing three Tops, not four. Please see post #268 on why that I think that's self-sabotaging.
-There are some somewhat weird choices in the sideboard. I believe I've went over earlier which of those I thought was unnecessary.
@Oatus
Where do you get the desire to run at least 15 1-drops? Is there any math behind it, or just your gut-feeling?
I've argued with people over the number of cards in a deck many times, and I feel that having a high number of "good cards" is better than having a small number of "really good" cards. I laugh at the people who argue that with a smaller deck you're more likely to draw what you need, because if you get in that situation you're gonna NOT end up drawing it many many more times than you would.
@votan
Thank you Though I am not sure why you take the time to say this, I appreciate it. I'll try to keep this post short
@randomdork
Apparently, you didn't quite get my point, as you mention right under that there were 0 Stoneforge Mystics in the top16, as if that disproved my point. You still seem to think that Humility is the choice for a normal meta, while Moat is for extreme cases, while in reality it's the other way around. In a normal meta, Merfolk, Zoo, Elves, Goblins, Dredge and decks playing Stoneforge Mystic* are going to show up a lot, and Moat is a lot stronger against the first five, and clearly stronger against the last.
Yes, Moat is indeed better against Elves than Humility, by a wide margin too. Let's imagine, that you're packing Humility, and your opponent has for some reason not Combo-killed before turn 4 (most likely reason is Counterbalance and maybe a FoW). He has 4 elves in play, and you play your Humility. All the 1/1s with random abilities become 1/1s with no abilities. You have spent a lot of resources getting where you are now, and your opponent has beaten you down quite a bit (+ fetches and FoW). You even Enlightened Tutored for Humility, since it's so awesome. You have 0 cards in hand and are at 9, but have a Top in play. How are you possibly going to win this? Topdeck Thopter Foundry into Sword? Fat chance. Topdeck Elspeth? She won't be enough to save you, and she's even a singleton to booth so it's very unlikely she will even arrive. Get an Engineered Explosives? Good thing all those 1/1s don't have any abilities, otherwise I might miss one due to Wirewood Symbiote. It's not like EE would kill them without the super-important Humility in play.
What I'm trying to say is that if you get to turn 4 against Elves, you either have a Counterbalance in play so they don't go off, or they are just trying to beat you down since you hit some vital piece with a counterspell. Humility is near worthless here, and I don't understand how you have not reached that conclusion trough playing the matchup. Granted, it gets a little better in games two and three since Counterbalance isn't near untouchable then, but you get Perish and Peacekeeper to more than make up for that.
"Thus in my point of view Humility is just a lot more flexible, stronger in the actual metagame and harder to destroy - but i don't believe it makes any sense to continue discussing."
I can agree on one point here, as I've done before, it is harder to destroy. There is no denying that. As for being more flexible, even "a lot more", I'm not seeing where you're coming from. Humility screws over your own creatures, forcing you to sculpt your deck around it to make it effective, like for example by including Elspeth instead of Jace, or not playing Peacekeeper and Phyrexian Revoker. Bob also prefers the Moat. And the "actual metagame"-point I hope I've explained above. The first taste of the new meta that we've seen included two merfolk decks, an Elves-deck and a zoo-deck (with no Pridemages main, to booth) in the top16. I've earlier went over the lack of utility-creatures there, see post #284.
As for continuing discussing this, I don't see why we should stop as long as we all keep is serious and provide solid arguments for our opinions. If we end up saying the same things over and over again, I agree there is little point, but so far that doesn't seem to be much of an issue.
Last thing: I'm still curious to know if you have played Moat, in this deck, in a real tournament? As I said in my last post, that's a good place to start if you want to discuss a card
I've argued with people over the number of cards in a deck many times, and I feel that having a high number of "good cards" is better than having a small number of "really good" cards. I laugh at the people who argue that with a smaller deck you're more likely to draw what you need, because if you get in that situation you're gonna NOT end up drawing it many many more times than you would.
Moat has long been a clutch answer in legacy, however, its day in the sun has passed. Zoo runs pridemage, merfolk runs commander, V Clique is the best blue creature. It is still a great card, but it the current metagame, you can't honestly put any weight to the argument that it is better than humility.
also, you mention elves as an example where moat is better... I literally can not think of a worse example... humility stops them from chaining elf into elf, as well as shutting off emrakul. Moat just lets them cast emrakul and then you die.
@Oatus
I started playing this deck slightly over a year ago, early autumn last year. That was also when I started playing Legacy. I've never know a meta where Pridemage isn't in every Zoo deck, Coralhelm Commander wasn't a staple in Merfolk and the best U creature was something else than Vendillion Clique. I ran Humility in the sideboard of my first list, courtesy of an article on PureMTGO.com, and I believe I also tried it a little in the maindeck. I disliked it then, cutting it from the deck entirely for almost a year. Then, a couple of months ago, I added Stoneforge Mystic to the deck, and again tried out Humility. I still disliked it, maybe even more, since Stoneforge Mystic was making it's existence known due to the printing of Batterskull. Green Sun's Zenith had also been printed, but since Stoneforge Mystic was played in almost all the lists running GSZ and white (which equals at least one Quasali Pridemage), I found Humility to be an ineffective answer to this kind of deck. I found Moat to be great a year ago, and I still do. I hope this, along with all the other arguments I've presented in my most recent posts, "put some weight" behind my argument.
I sure do mention Elves as an example where Moat is a lot better than Humility. I thought I explained it well in my last post, but apparently not: Humility costs four mana. Since this deck plays no sort of mana-acceleration, you can't play Humility before turn four. If you haven't been eaten by an Emrakul from Elves before turn four, it is highly likely that you have a Counterbalance in play, and most likely a Sensei's Divining Top to go with it. Other options include a well-timed Engineered Explosives along with some counter-spells and Swords to Plowshares'. As long as you have Counterbalance in play, the Elves-player can't realistically go off. He can, however, beat you to death with the elves he already has in play, and any 2+CC-elves he manages to sneak into play. This is were Moat is really good, since it stops plan B for the Elves-deck. Humility on the other hand, it's too slow to do anything with their plan A (Combo-kill you) and does very little, almost nothing, with their plan B.
If you can't think of a worse example, it most definitely suggests you haven't tested either card enough against Elves. I will, again, ask if you have even played with Moat, in this deck, in a real tournament. Have you?
@randomdork
Judging by the PM I received from you, I interpret the "goodbye .... "as if though you won't be joining the discussion any longer. As for ignoring other people's opinions, I'm not sure I follow. I try to address every opinion in other people's posts (in this thread, that is). If I disagree with it, I tell them why I do. And the 1/1s from Humility I do indeed get back to a lot, since that's the major downside with the card. If it had read "All creatures lose all abilities and are 0/0" it would change my opinion on the card drastically
I've argued with people over the number of cards in a deck many times, and I feel that having a high number of "good cards" is better than having a small number of "really good" cards. I laugh at the people who argue that with a smaller deck you're more likely to draw what you need, because if you get in that situation you're gonna NOT end up drawing it many many more times than you would.
Is there a reason to play stoneforge mystic in this deck, when snapcaster mage is insane with swords to plowshare and enlightened tutor? Having the ability to cast enlightened tutor 3 times before the game is over seems extremely strong.
Stoneforge Mystic into Batterskull is one of the most crippling plays against most aggro decks and it has the added bonus of being able to search up Sword of the Meek if needed. Snapcaster Mage does seem quite interesting (and it'd certainly help up the blue spell count for Force of Will, which I currently consider to be a bit too low) but I don't think our deck can abuse Tiago Chan nearly as much as other decks can because we're more permanent-based.
Anyway, I did a little shopping and some testing today. Here's my updated list which did quite well when I tested it tonight:
Engineered Explosives with the black splash was an absolute bomb, and I can see why everyone uses it. I personally prefer Humility over Moat because I prefer to shut all creatures off rather than prevent an admittedly large group of creatures from attacking me. Plus, Qasali Pridemage is everywhere in my meta. I do see the merits of using Moat, but for now I think Humility does the job just fine.
A few concerns I have with my list:
- Does Daze fit in the deck at all? I'm torn on including it over other counterspells like Spell Snare and Counterspell.
- Running 2 Stoneforge Mystic and 4 Counterbalance. Should that be 3 Stoneforge Mystic and 3 Counterbalance?
- How is my sideboard? I think it's a lot better than it was before, but I'm not 100% sure of some of the cards in it (like Vendilion Clique, even if I love the card, and the extra Stoneforge Mystic and Jace, the Mind Sculptor).
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Special thanks to Hakai Studios and SushiOtter for the sig!
Legacy:UR Sneak and Show IUBG Team America IX Metalworker MUD Modern:UBR Blue Jund IWBX Eldrazi Processors IX Affinity IWRG Nacatl Burn IGR Tron IUBR Grishoalbrand
Wow! We certainly got some action these past two weeks while I was focusing on Modern (plus school and work).
I haven't gotten to play Legacy so I still have the Moat and the humility. I think that if you are playing Moat, it's a good idea to have humility in the board still. Moat's inability to shut down Emrakul is the only thing that scares me at this point- though Thopter Sword is good against those tentacles. Humility also gets worse with more creatures you play. I play none other than sideboard Cannonists. I disagree on why humility is good though. I think half of it's utility is that it's difficult to remove and half of it's utility is shutting down abilities. Humility is much less effective on the board but there are some times wherein it is much more powerful. Moat without Pithing Needle is less effective but either with Thopter Sword is very good- humility is the better of the two with Thopter Sword.
The fact that Dismember costs three is very cute. Hadn't thought of that!
Against BUG, Moon is so much better than B2B. B2B gives them outs. Moon and their dead.
I don't think Stoneforge is bad at all- but with the way I've constructed my deck, I'd rather not include both and I think Moat is better verse fish, especially with the inclusion of Dismember in Fish lists.
I think 4 Tops are necessary. I can understand cutting one for the 3rd or 4th Enlightened Tutor as I think that card is also extremely powerful. I've had times where I've got a Top in play and two Tops floating on top with a Top in hand, with myself just waiting for a way to shuffle but the times where I can keep a hand because it has the Top and it alone spins the game in my favor far outnumbers that. When I ran 3 Top 4 Tutor, the Tutor was just getting the Top more than half the time.
@Grand Superior
Daze is really only potentially warranted against Storm which this deck is alright against that and Stifle is probably better there and elsewhere. The tempo loss from Daze is just horrible against aggro unless it's backing up a Stoneforge.
I'd love to make room for Tiago (and Stoneforge) but I just don't see it happening, unfortunately.
@Goliat
I think the text provided in discussions is fine. I think the amount of text provided with your Daily report was too much. Consider breaking up that text in the future as well as not needing to be quite as thorough. Having access to a playback feature on the games means that you can be more thorough but it doesn't mean you should because it's hard to pinpoint exactly what is relevant.
Lastly, one of the best uses for Seat of the Synod that I've found is it's ability to play around Crypt, Spellbomb, and Relic that all aim to exile your Sword of the Meek in response to its trigger. If you have Bridge, Needle, or something else then sometimes you're okay but I like that a land has the added versatility of avoiding those gravehates by saccing to Thopter Foundry. Worse case scenario you can sac the Foundry but that kind of hurts (unless you have Academy Ruins, another great versatility land).
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L1 Judge
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1 Seat of the Synod
5 Island
2 Plains
4 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
4 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Academy Ruins
1 Wasteland
2 Tolaria West
I suppose I could drop an island and a Misty. O ring is great suggestion, I'll definitely add it. Isn't bridge a bit redundant with moat? I could drop Moat, though I'll have to find something to replace it... Maybe a 4th JTMS, so I have 4 CMC spells.
I would strongly reccomend Seat, I LOVE that card. I have seen a lot of Choke, so it let's me produce U without worry.
My sb is:
3 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Leyline of the Void
3 Dark Confidant
1 Energy Flux
1 Seal of Clensing
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 O Ring
2 Perish
Level 1 Judge
Currently Playing:
W Death and Taxes
BGR ScapeWish Nic Fit
BGR Punishing Nic Fit
Id like to run it again if its still viable, has anyone done testing/used it in a small/medium local?
Big Thanks to DNC and all the guys at Heroes of the Plane Studios for the sig and avvie.
Currently Playing:
Legacy:
BUGBUG DelverGUB
UWRUWR MiraclesRWU
RUGRUG DelverGUR
UUHigh TideUU
Modern:
UWRUWR ControlRWU
UBUB FaeriesBU
BGRJundRGB
URUR StormRU
Standard:
UWUW ControlWU
I've been toying with Tolaria as a way to get EE, Wasteland, and Ruins.
I really wish we had more playable 3 CMC cards, KotR, GSZ (for goyf, Teeg, or Pridemage) , Choke. Maverick is our worst MU IMO, as most builds have 3-4 of all those cards
I have 6 leylines in my sb... Thoughts? They usually come in over Jace, as he is too slow vs Combo and burn, only meh vs Gate-esque decks, and dead vs dredge.
EDIT: I splash B for Bob and Leyline... What about a green splash for goyf maybe and Kgrip?
Level 1 Judge
Currently Playing:
W Death and Taxes
BGR ScapeWish Nic Fit
BGR Punishing Nic Fit
Maybe you should reread my statement about Maverick. It's the 3-4 Choke, and 4 GZS fetching Goyf, Teeg, or Pridemage, plus KotR.
Level 1 Judge
Currently Playing:
W Death and Taxes
BGR ScapeWish Nic Fit
BGR Punishing Nic Fit
4 Flooded Strand
5 Island
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Plains
4 Polluted Delta
1 Seat of the Synod
1 Tolaria West
4 Tundra
4 Brainstorm
3 Enlightened Tutor
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Counterspell
4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Sword of the Meek
2 Thopter Foundry
1 Dismember
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Oblivion Ring
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Batterskull
4 Force of Will
1 Aura of Silence
1 Misdirection
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
2 Pithing Needle
1 Relic of Progenitus
3 Spell Pierce
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Vedalken Shackles
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
Dismember is something that I've been testing. It's obviously better with a splash of black (wish I had Underground Seas), but it is a three casting cost spell that really just costs 1 and can act as STP #5. It's been decent so far.
Also, my sideboard is an absolute mess. I have no idea how to make a good one. Any help would be much appreciated.
Special thanks to Hakai Studios and SushiOtter for the sig!
Legacy: UR Sneak and Show I UBG Team America I X Metalworker MUD
Modern: UBR Blue Jund I WBX Eldrazi Processors I X Affinity I WRG Nacatl Burn I GR Tron I UBR Grishoalbrand
3 Enlightened Tutor
2 Stoneforge Mystic
Tutorables:
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Counterballence
2 Thopter Foundry
1 Sword of the Meek
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Moat
1 Batterskull
Jaces:
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Spells:
3 Spell Snare
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Dismember
4 Force of Will
1 Seat of the Synod
5 Island
2 Plains
3 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
4 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Academy Ruins
1 Wasteland
1 Tolaria West
3 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Leyline of the Void
3 Dark Confidant
1 Energy Flux
1 Seal of Clensing
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Pithing Needle
2 Perish
I think 4 SFM is far too many, it's an extra, not a needed part. You will also notice I have a huge toolbox... That's pretty common for this deak. EE is awesome, definitely play it. I also prefer Snare to Counterspell. Crucible is nice vs wasteland, good with our wasteland (if you run it) and has CMC 3. Moat is a boss... You need it ASAP. With EE, you will want a splash for a 3rd color... I like black for bob myself
Level 1 Judge
Currently Playing:
W Death and Taxes
BGR ScapeWish Nic Fit
BGR Punishing Nic Fit
2 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Snapcaster Mage
Insant 17
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Enlightened Tutor
2 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
Artifact 10
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Thopter Foundry
1 Sword of the Meek
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Batterskull
3 Counterbalance
1 Humility
Planeswalker 2
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Land 22
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Scalding Tarn
4 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
3 Island
1 Plains
1 Tolaria West
1 Wasteland
1 Academy Ruins
1 Seat of the Synod
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Counterbalance
2 Spell Pierce
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Path to Exile
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Energy Flux
1 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Firespout
1 Wrath of God
Level 1 Judge
Currently Playing:
W Death and Taxes
BGR ScapeWish Nic Fit
BGR Punishing Nic Fit
@CursedOne
"i don't fear so much enemy equipment we have thopter , with humility or without it you can easily avoid attack sacrifacing token."
Two things here. First, if you have ThopterSword going, Humility is rather irrelevant anyways, only Bob and Lord of Atlantis comes to mind as things the Humility makes a difference against if you make 5 thopters a-turn. And the opponent drawing an extra card or two each turn isn't all that important since few cards stop the Foundry and the tokens it has already made. The equipment this deck actively struggle with is Sword of Fire and Ice, and not even a million thopters + Humility can stop that from connecting with you. That card really is a pain, though manageable.
You say you only run 20 lands, and as you say, that's dangerously close to too few. I'd actually go as far as saying that is too few, I'd even say 21 is too few. Consider 22 lands, and please at least run 21. If you're not already running it, I like the singleton Tolaria West. That is, if you have a singleton Wasteland to go with it.
You only run one Peacekeeper in your sideboard. If you're gonna run him, I'm not saying you have to, I think you should run at least two. That makes it an actual plan in game 2 and 3, not something you may randomly draw into against Maverick or Merfolk.
@Raggedjoe
-You run zero Swords to Plowshares? Is that a typo somewhere in there? I really can't understand that if that is the case, no wonder you have problems dealing with Knight of the Reliquary. Have you tested with any StPs?
-You only run three Tops, and as I've argued on before, you want to see this card every game, and multiplies isn't a problem. To say that you find 3 Tops to be enough puzzles me... Don't you want to see this card every game? Or do you have a problem with drawing too many? I know my answer to those questions, and since our lists are very similar, I'm curious to know why you seem to feel differently
-You run a singleton Seat of the Synod as one of your lands. I did so in my firsts lists of the deck, but ended up removing it when I at one point added Serenity to the sideboard. I hated how was vulnerable to Quasali Pridemage and Anchient Grudge, though I definitely appreciated it's natural resistance to Choke. Sometimes I sacrificed it to make a thopter, but I almost never tutored it up with Enlightened Tutor. I've found a couple of times in later date that I wanted to do that, but that was often with bad hands that probably would go nowhere even if I had the Seat in the deck. If I move up to three Foundries after Misstep gets banned on MODO, I might give it a spin. For the moment, I'd like to know if you too have a problem with Q-Mage and/or Grudge blowing it up?
-I'm struggling to understand why you want to play any of the Leylines, yet alone run 6. They're dead in multiplies, and there are very few matchups where they have an application. Leyline of the Void is great against Dredge and Reanimator if you have it in your opening hand, but since we run Enlightened Tutor, it's way better to run some singleton pieces that are cheap. The ones you list in your last post are the ones I'd suggest, and unless you have the space or you believe the meta demands it, I'd only run two pieces. I personally run Nihil Spellbomb and Tormod's Crypt, but I'm thinking of trying out the Wheel instead of Spellbomb. I advise you to test all three options, against both Reanimator and Dredge
-Regarding your manabase, I see you have gone down to 22 lands. I think that's better than 24, I personally run 23. I like your manabase, not all that surprising since the only difference is that I run 2 more fetches and no Seat. I think you should consider running another fetch, either cutting an Island, the Seat or just playing 23 lands. Tolaria West and Wasteland makes up for land-heavy draws, and Top should make sure you generally avoid those. I feel comfortable running such a high amount of lands, since most decks run Wasteland, don't allow you to stumble on your mana-development since they're so fast or are controlling so you want to assemble a manabase to be able to cast and protect your spells reliably
-I suggest running an Aura of Silence in the SB as an additional out to Choke and 3-drop. WW is kinda tough, but not intolerable.
-Lastly, you say you tested all day online. Since MM isn't banned on MTGO, I assume this was on Workstation or similar? If it's on MODO on the other hand, it had been great if you could say your username, since some live discussion on the deck is very helpful for all parties involved
@-v3n0m-
"So how is old ThopterTop performing in the new meta w/o MM?
Id like to run it again if its still viable, has anyone done testing/used it in a small/medium local? "
I can't say for sure how it will fare in the new meta, but since I'm of the opinion that it was good before Mental Misstep got banned, I definitely believe it will do great now. I will continue to play it a lot online when the banning is in effect there, so I will get you some results when that happens (if you're still interested by then)
@Grand Superior
I like a lot of things about the list. What I don't like is:
-playing the full playset of Stoneforge Mystic. Drawing two can often be migitated since you have two equipments and Squire is kinda handy, but drawing three is just awful a lot of the time. You want to see this card, but it's not neccesarrily vital to your gameplan, and multiplies often suck. I'd say it's a classic 3-of
-playing no Moat. Most people who don't play Moat play Humility instead, but you seem to be content with just having Ensnaring Bridge. I can understand not being able to afford Moat, but if that isn't the case I urge you to play Moat, at least try it. The card is a gigantic roadblock and counters JTMS, GSZ for 3 and Natural Order with Enlightened Tutor
-playing just one Plains. You don't run any Karakas to compensate for this either. Considering that you don't run Moat/Humility, this is sort of understandable, but since you run no Seal of Cleansing in the sideboard I think you'll find Choke to be a giant pain in the a##. You do run Counterspell, so I see the need to have a lot of blue mana availebale, but if your manabase is built with little to no testing behind it, I would strongly consider starting out with a manabase consisting of two Plains
-Your sideboard is kinda loose, but you seem to already be aware of that
@Oatus
Seems good, a couple of questions/notes:
-I kinda like the split between Spell Snare and Counterspell. It's the classic thing where you show your opponent one counterspell and he plays around that for the rest of the game. Singleton counterspells have a lot of value in that sense
-You run Humility over Moat. Care to explain why?
-You play Volcanic Island, yet play no Blood Moon in the sideboard...If you're gonna play R, I strongly suggest that card, since Deedstill is this deck's worst matchup. As an aside, I find Maverick to be decent, if not good matchup. RaggedJoe, who suggested this was out worst, may think so because he runs no Swords to Plowshares (which still kinda baffles me)
-You list "aflux" in your sideboard. Is that Aura Flux? Or Energy Flux, like the traditional choice is?
-Similar thing with "timely". Is that Timely Reinforcements? If so, why? I suggest you use 5 minutes more to type out the names in your decklist(s), so that you avoid the very unnecessary process of other people double-checking which cards you mean
-I like the idea of having a third Enlightened Tutor in the sideboard (not that I haven't though about it before), but I think it's a better idea to include it in the main, then side it out if need be. When I ran three ETs, I rarely did not side out the third copy
@RPrajzner
As for the whole idea of topics, I don't think that will work out. I know I am tired of it already
Regarding Dismember, I'd say it's not the worst idea out there. It's a lot worse than StP in most situations, it's a lot like Path to Exile in the degree of drop-off in power, except it costs "three" so you can counter more stuff with Counterbalance. If you feel the need to have more removal, I'd say Oblivion Ring is better, but feel free to prove me wrong.
If somebody is planning on running green for art/ench - removal: Krosan Grip is a better choice than Nature's Claim. More people will be running Counterbalance, probably a lot more judging by these forums and the data from SCG-events (I believe I saw no Counterbalance-decks listed in recent events)
For the record, I think it's better to just run Seal of Cleansing and/or Aura of Silence. There are better colors to splash (#cough# Bob! #cough#)
As for my report on the last two matches in the Daily, I'm not so sure I will put them down on paper in the immediate future. It sure is a lot of work, and I should probably put that work into studying instead
4 Flooded Strand
4 Island
1 Marsh Flats
2 Plains
4 Polluted Delta
1 Seat of the Synod
1 Tolaria West
4 Tundra
4 Brainstorm
2 Enlightened Tutor
4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Spell Snare
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Sword of the Meek
2 Thopter Foundry
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Humility
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Batterskull
4 Force of Will
1 Aura of Silence
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Pithing Needle
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Seal of Cleansing
2 Spell Pierce
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Vedalken Shackles
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
I really need to get my hands on Underground Seas to be able to splash for Perish and to be able to adequately support Engineered Explosives, which I really need to have in my list. Sideboard's still rather uninspired, I feel, but I don't know what to do with it.
Special thanks to Hakai Studios and SushiOtter for the sig!
Legacy: UR Sneak and Show I UBG Team America I X Metalworker MUD
Modern: UBR Blue Jund I WBX Eldrazi Processors I X Affinity I WRG Nacatl Burn I GR Tron I UBR Grishoalbrand
My landbase is currently in flux. I started at 25, I've been experimenting back and forth really. I think less than 22 is bad, but I am not set on how many to run. I think im going to go back up one or two though. The structure would be generally the same as what you are talking a out if I add more back in. Seat is there because it's won me games vs Choke.
I see a lot of Burn and TES, which is the reason for the Leyline of Sanctity. They generally come in over Jace. I just have trouble keeping up with those decks. I'm also thinking about trying a straight life gain card... Whitesun's Passadge or Rest for the Weary. Both of those cards are remarkable CA vs Burn/TES.
Aura of Silence is nice, I think I'll try it out.
Leyline of the Void is what I happen to have on hand.
My local store has an online league, which is what I was talking about
Level 1 Judge
Currently Playing:
W Death and Taxes
BGR ScapeWish Nic Fit
BGR Punishing Nic Fit
"CC of 3 is the most complicated slot for this deck and will always find Qasali Pridemage aka several copies of Disenchant even pre board?"
Is this a statement, or a question? Not that important really, I do agree that spells costing 3 are more problematic than the ones that cost 0, 1 or 2, but that's the case for most decks playing Counterbalance. 3, 4 and 5 are are all CCs that you need a little luck or set-up to counter, but it's not undoable. As for "always find Quasali Pridemage", I can agree to that too, somewhat at least. The thing is though, that GSZ and Pridemage exists isn't all that important. Sure, sometimes your Moat gets blown up, and you have to play the rest of the match fair. That's against some green decks though, and sometimes Force of Will shows up anyway. The rest of the time though, non-utility-creatures your opponent controls that don't fly, do nothing. You've dealt with every Tarmogoyf, Batterskull, Sword, Wild Nacatl, Goblin Piledriver and Lord of Atlantis out there, the list goes on and on. Creatures like Knight of the Reliquary and Mother of Runes matter little to nothing, because you just don't care what your opponent does unless he plays a Quasali Pridemage, a flyer or Vindicate. Post-board, Krosan Grip often shows up to spoil the party, but in game 1 Moat is golden against most G decks and sick against Merfolks and Goblins.
As for your other point on the decline Merfolk...This naturally depends on meta to meta, but Merfolk is the most popular deck in the SCG-tournaments, and as a matter-of-fact, they were on the decline before the banning of Mental Misstep because of Mental Misstep. That was almost certainly due to the up-spring of UW Stoneblade decks where Stoneforge Mystic presented a major problem for 'folk. Ironic, I know
You are indeed right that Swords with protection from green are the most common, but that includes Sword of Body and Mind. Also, "most common" just means that decks playing one Sword would usually play Sword of Feast and Famine. For the decks playing two, Sword of Fire and Ice is the most natural choice to supplement SoFaF.
Last, but not least, Humility is a really sad card. It doesn't deal with the creatures that are looking to kill you, and sucks against equipment. It just makes them into 1/1s so that they kill you a little slower. Cute, but not really what you look for in a 4-drop in Legacy.
@Grand Superior
List looks really good. As you say, Engineered Explosives should get in the as soon as possible, along with some Volcanic Islands or Underground Seas. The Tolaria West strikes me as odd since you run no Wasteland (and no EE yet), played enough to say how it has performed without these cards?
My feelings on Humility instead of Moat should be pretty clear, but each to his own. If it's not an economical issue, and if you haven't tried, I strongly suggest trying Moat instead.
@Raggedjoe
Sorry for the confusion on Swords to Plowshares, I got too caught up in post #254. There you are playing no Swords, and I'd really like to know why? As for your more recent decklist, it seems good, except for any critique I may have made in my last post (like 3 Tops).
Regarding struggling with Burn and TES, I really can't identify myself with that. Both those decks have huge issues dealing with Counterbalance. If you're going to add cards to deal with those matchups, I suggest Spell Pierce, and Warmth for Burn specifically. I never got as far as trying CoP: Red over Warmth in the sideboard, but you may want to try that instead. Testing will tell. The reason I don't run Ethersworn Canonist in the sideboard is the same as why I run no Warmth: I'm just that comfortable with the matchup, and a Counterbalance will do the same, if not better, a lot of the time.
In other news, the Legacy-Dailies on MTGO are sort of struggling to fire. I'm not sure why, since Modern seems to have been a big fluke online after the Pro-tour, but hopefully Legacy will regain some popularity when the MM-banning is put in effect. That will be 13.10, and then I will finally decide what my lists will look like post-MM
Again, I can agree on some of the things you say. Humility is harder to remove. That doesn't mean either enchantment is easy to remove though, especially game 1.
But the reason this deck plays Humility and/or Moat isn't because they're hard to remove. It's the effect the enchantment provides. That effect is undoubtedly different between the two, and I am very much of the opinion that "Creatures without flying can't attack" is the best. Since you apparently have read at least some of the thread I am sure you know why, so I won't have to repeat myself yet again.
While different metas have different popular decks, I will again repeat the Merfolk is the biggest deck in the SCG-series, and Moat is a lot better than Humility in that matchup. Same goes for Zoo, and in my opinion even against decks that play Green Sun's Zenith. Your opinion may naturally differ, I'm sure you have a lot of games against GW Maverick under your belt to have forged your opinion.
"Vedalken Shackles" target="blank">Vedalken ShacklesI've had this card in the SB from time to time, but I rarely gotten to side it in. I think that's just one big coincidence though, it's not like I'm hating on the card when I'm playing it. The end-result it unfortunately that I don't have a ton of input on the card, other than I found it often a tad slow against Zoo, and a little too unreliable since Krosan Grip at the end of your turn can lead to a blowout."
I assume it's the above that you're referring to. As you can see, I'm not of the opinion that the card is bad, I'm just saying that my experience with the card has shown it too be a little slow, and vulnerable removal. I think, in retrospect, that "blowout" is too big a word for what happens when Shackles gets destroyed at the end of your turn, but it certainly isn't nice. Moat does indeed have the same vulnerability to Krosan Grip, but so does Humility and pretty much every other enchantment and artifact. This is why I play Peacekeeper in my sideboard instead, and Perish to deal specifically with the decks that play Green Sun's Zenith.
"I wouldn't stick to Moat"
I'm just curious, since this seems like a weird way to phrase it. Are you actually playing this deck? If so, have you tested both cards in question?
@CursedOne
I can't find your list anywhere in this thread, which would be helpful when looking at your manabase. I may just be bad at the internetz though, sorry if I have just done a sloppy job searching.
As for running just 20 lands, you can't let yourself be biased by one day of playtesting where everything went smoothly mana-wise. Finding the right amount of lands for a deck is a very delicate process, where people often do the wrong things for the wrong reasons, sometimes do the right thing for the wrong reasons and very rarely do the right thing for the right reasons. Variance will make sure every player has a different perspective on how good for example 22 lands are, and why. My point is that you are running at least one fewer land than pretty much every other list, based on 10 matches or something. That's just being the victim of results-based thinking. Please include another land.
For the record, I'm not claiming to have the right amount of lands for the right reason, since I'm not sitting with the fact-sheet on Magic. What I do claim is that I believe I'm playing the right amount of lands for the right reasons. The "reasons" pretty much just being having played a ton with the deck.
@Raggedjoe
Meant to comment on this in my last post, but I forgot. You're running 61 cards in your last list, and I most certainly hope I don't have to derail the thread explaining why that's just plain stupid
you beat me too it.
Yes free wins against some decks can be nice but i feel that humility give you real nice utility. plus the only real free win is merfolk cause siege gang, lavamancer and quasli laugh at your moat.
Also i think we should consider changing our 3 jace count to 2 jace and 1 elspeth. I have tested this and her interaction with humility is just oppressing. I also run 2 stoneforges and a batterskull in my list, and it is a house doping down a batterskull after humility, you can almost not lose that game against any strategy that turns guys sideways. Just because humility has some downsides that moat doesn't have doesn't mean that we cant sculpt our deck to capitalize on these.
I feel that this deck should error on the side of using humility and depending on the meta use moat if its appropriate. Since its better against a larger variety of decks where moat shines in a few match-ups and can be lackluster in others.
counterspell/spell snare: variety is good, but i'll get to why i have the 1/1 split in a bit
Humility is just better than Moat right now [not close] because of the number of tombstalkers, vendilion cliques, spellstutter sprites and emrakuls floating around, as well as shutting off pridemage
There is literally zero lands/deedstill in my area, but i have had a B2B floating around in and out of my sideboard forever
It was supposed to be Energy Flux, and Timely Reinforcements [which is astually almost a double time walk against zoo]
E tutor in the sideboard: I wanted 15 1 CMC spells, but also wanted enough blue cards that I could safely double force, this is why I moved a tutor to the SB and ran a spell snare instead of 2x Counterspell [i always want access to 3 tutors]
[edit: the two dude above me mean Emrakul]
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=270974
To start of, I'd like to make it clear that you probably should, in most cases, play one, not both, in the maindeck. Four mana is a lot in Legacy, chances are you can't afford to clog up your hand with 4-drops. If you do, you're probably playing against control, and the enchantments mostly suck and Jace, the Mind Sculptor is your go-to 4-drop. You always have the option of playing the other one in the sideboard, if you want so badly to have access to both effects.
"All creatures lose all abilities and are 1/1"
This makes every threat your opponent plays into a 1/1 for as long as you have Humility in play. They are still threats, they do not suddenly go away or become irrelevant. They will still destroy your JTMS, then kill you. Equipment that your opponent controls will not be affected, and take you down in short order if it's present. This is especially true for Sword of Fire and Ice, and almost as much for Sword of Body and Mind.
What you need to do then is naturally to make sure you have your own 1/1s in play, or dwarf their 1/1s by cheating trough equipment. Stoneforge Mystic brings Batterskull to the table, Thopter Foundry brings endless 1/1s and some lists even play Elspeth.
My problem with Humility is that it requires other cards to be truly effective. It's a 4-drop in Legacy that isn't good unless you can support it with either:
-a, an engine that should win you the game against creature-decks by itself
-b, another 4-drop
-c, a 2-drop that requires another two mana to work, and would probably win you the game single-handedly unless it got destroyed
You're relying on your win-conditions to make sure your threat-answer actually answers threats. Why not just play your win-conditions?
Let me answer that... Because you are dead, that's why. You lack a good tutor-able answer to your opponent's army of beaters. His Sword-equipped Noble Hierarch, Stoneforge Mystic and Knight of the Reliquary. His Wild Nacatl, Kird Ape and Tarmogoyf. His Silvergill Adept, Lord of Atlantis and Merrow Reejerey. His Goblin Piledriver, Goblin Matron and Goblin Ringleader. His Stoneforge Mystic and Batterskull. His Dark Confidant, Tarmogoyf and Knight of the Reliquary.
Enter Moat. This card will buy you that time to set up your win-condition. It will blank every creature except fliers and utility creatures. As for the flyers, they are fairly rare in Legacy. As for the utility creatures, most of their effects become near irrelevant since none of your opponents other creatures matter (Bob, Mother of Runes, Knight of the Reliquary).
I'm not claiming Moat will win you the game on it's own. Sometimes it does, and that's great. Sometimes your opponent will go Green Sun's Zenith for 2 into Quasali Pridemage, and that sucks. Most of the time, you will reduce or completely stop your opponent offense until you land a JTMS with FoW-backup, or assemble Thopter-Sword.
You list a bunch of creatures that see play play in Legacy, to a greater or lesser extent. Do you want to make this into a contest on listing what cards the other enchantment doesn't stop? Do you want me to link you to a list of every legal card in Legacy? Really?
Humility doesn't stop your opponent's threats, it makes them less threatening. Which is great when all your opponent can cough up is one big fatty like Emrakul or Jin-Gitaxias. Too bad you won't get to play it since your hand or board is reduced to nothing.
I sort of get the feeling you claim the meta is shifting to better suit Humility. If so, I'm curious to know why? You mention Spellstutter Sprite, and I believe there are 0 Spellstutter Sprites, and 0 Emrakuls too actually, in the most recent SCG-top16. There are also just 3 Tombstalkers, 6 Vendillion Cliques and 2 Pridemages (3 more in a Zoo-SB, don't ask me why it's not main). It bears mentioning that there also 0 Stoneforge Mystics in the top16, which I find peculiar.
As for Humility/Moat against Elves, Moat is far better. Making a ton of 1/1-dorks into 1/1s is a very bad way of stopping them from beating you to death.
I am not claiming Humility is a bad card. I don't believe you are claiming Moat is a bad card either. But you realistically have to choose either one, and I hope I've made it clear why I've chosen Moat, and why I think you should do it too. Metagames matter somewhat, but unless there are just stupid amounts of Reanimator and SneakShow, I can't agree on Humility being the right choice.
Lastly, I'd like to know how many of you have actually played Moat, in this deck, in a real tournament? If you haven't, I suggest you do before setting your mind on what card is "clearly better".
@randomdork
Peacekeeper against GW Maverick, Merfolk and Elves is fantastic. If people don't know about the SB-plan of creatures, and have artifact/enchantment-removal in the sideboard, they wouldn't be all that clever if they keep in their Swords to Plowshares. Granted, some people aren't all that clever, but they will still be reducing the amount of StPs. Also, you have something called Counterbalance, and it + Sensei's Divining Top kinda makes Swords to Plowshares bad. Mental Misstep made this plan even better, but that is leaving MODO very soon.
@CursedOne
Seems alright, though a couple of very weird things:
-You play Ensnaring Bridge, Humility and Moat. I can't imagine that you can afford to play such a high number of lock-down enchantments, when you really should at max need two.
-You play three Plains and a Karakas, with the norm being two (strictly) white sources. Why do you feel your deck has such a great need of white mana? The consequence of this is that you run fewer blue sources, just two basic islands for instance, and I'm struggling to believe that you can reliably play Counterbalance on turn 2 which is the time it is at it's best.
-You are still just playing 20 land.
-You are playing three Tops, not four. Please see post #268 on why that I think that's self-sabotaging.
-There are some somewhat weird choices in the sideboard. I believe I've went over earlier which of those I thought was unnecessary.
@Oatus
Where do you get the desire to run at least 15 1-drops? Is there any math behind it, or just your gut-feeling?
Thank you Though I am not sure why you take the time to say this, I appreciate it. I'll try to keep this post short
@randomdork
Apparently, you didn't quite get my point, as you mention right under that there were 0 Stoneforge Mystics in the top16, as if that disproved my point. You still seem to think that Humility is the choice for a normal meta, while Moat is for extreme cases, while in reality it's the other way around. In a normal meta, Merfolk, Zoo, Elves, Goblins, Dredge and decks playing Stoneforge Mystic* are going to show up a lot, and Moat is a lot stronger against the first five, and clearly stronger against the last.
Yes, Moat is indeed better against Elves than Humility, by a wide margin too. Let's imagine, that you're packing Humility, and your opponent has for some reason not Combo-killed before turn 4 (most likely reason is Counterbalance and maybe a FoW). He has 4 elves in play, and you play your Humility. All the 1/1s with random abilities become 1/1s with no abilities. You have spent a lot of resources getting where you are now, and your opponent has beaten you down quite a bit (+ fetches and FoW). You even Enlightened Tutored for Humility, since it's so awesome. You have 0 cards in hand and are at 9, but have a Top in play. How are you possibly going to win this? Topdeck Thopter Foundry into Sword? Fat chance. Topdeck Elspeth? She won't be enough to save you, and she's even a singleton to booth so it's very unlikely she will even arrive. Get an Engineered Explosives? Good thing all those 1/1s don't have any abilities, otherwise I might miss one due to Wirewood Symbiote. It's not like EE would kill them without the super-important Humility in play.
What I'm trying to say is that if you get to turn 4 against Elves, you either have a Counterbalance in play so they don't go off, or they are just trying to beat you down since you hit some vital piece with a counterspell. Humility is near worthless here, and I don't understand how you have not reached that conclusion trough playing the matchup. Granted, it gets a little better in games two and three since Counterbalance isn't near untouchable then, but you get Perish and Peacekeeper to more than make up for that.
"Thus in my point of view Humility is just a lot more flexible, stronger in the actual metagame and harder to destroy - but i don't believe it makes any sense to continue discussing."
I can agree on one point here, as I've done before, it is harder to destroy. There is no denying that. As for being more flexible, even "a lot more", I'm not seeing where you're coming from. Humility screws over your own creatures, forcing you to sculpt your deck around it to make it effective, like for example by including Elspeth instead of Jace, or not playing Peacekeeper and Phyrexian Revoker. Bob also prefers the Moat. And the "actual metagame"-point I hope I've explained above. The first taste of the new meta that we've seen included two merfolk decks, an Elves-deck and a zoo-deck (with no Pridemages main, to booth) in the top16. I've earlier went over the lack of utility-creatures there, see post #284.
As for continuing discussing this, I don't see why we should stop as long as we all keep is serious and provide solid arguments for our opinions. If we end up saying the same things over and over again, I agree there is little point, but so far that doesn't seem to be much of an issue.
Last thing: I'm still curious to know if you have played Moat, in this deck, in a real tournament? As I said in my last post, that's a good place to start if you want to discuss a card
*A lot of the decks playing Green Sun's Zenith are also playing Stoneforge Mystic
also, you mention elves as an example where moat is better... I literally can not think of a worse example... humility stops them from chaining elf into elf, as well as shutting off emrakul. Moat just lets them cast emrakul and then you die.
I started playing this deck slightly over a year ago, early autumn last year. That was also when I started playing Legacy. I've never know a meta where Pridemage isn't in every Zoo deck, Coralhelm Commander wasn't a staple in Merfolk and the best U creature was something else than Vendillion Clique. I ran Humility in the sideboard of my first list, courtesy of an article on PureMTGO.com, and I believe I also tried it a little in the maindeck. I disliked it then, cutting it from the deck entirely for almost a year. Then, a couple of months ago, I added Stoneforge Mystic to the deck, and again tried out Humility. I still disliked it, maybe even more, since Stoneforge Mystic was making it's existence known due to the printing of Batterskull. Green Sun's Zenith had also been printed, but since Stoneforge Mystic was played in almost all the lists running GSZ and white (which equals at least one Quasali Pridemage), I found Humility to be an ineffective answer to this kind of deck. I found Moat to be great a year ago, and I still do. I hope this, along with all the other arguments I've presented in my most recent posts, "put some weight" behind my argument.
I sure do mention Elves as an example where Moat is a lot better than Humility. I thought I explained it well in my last post, but apparently not:
Humility costs four mana. Since this deck plays no sort of mana-acceleration, you can't play Humility before turn four. If you haven't been eaten by an Emrakul from Elves before turn four, it is highly likely that you have a Counterbalance in play, and most likely a Sensei's Divining Top to go with it. Other options include a well-timed Engineered Explosives along with some counter-spells and Swords to Plowshares'. As long as you have Counterbalance in play, the Elves-player can't realistically go off. He can, however, beat you to death with the elves he already has in play, and any 2+CC-elves he manages to sneak into play. This is were Moat is really good, since it stops plan B for the Elves-deck. Humility on the other hand, it's too slow to do anything with their plan A (Combo-kill you) and does very little, almost nothing, with their plan B.
If you can't think of a worse example, it most definitely suggests you haven't tested either card enough against Elves. I will, again, ask if you have even played with Moat, in this deck, in a real tournament. Have you?
@randomdork
Judging by the PM I received from you, I interpret the "goodbye .... "as if though you won't be joining the discussion any longer. As for ignoring other people's opinions, I'm not sure I follow. I try to address every opinion in other people's posts (in this thread, that is). If I disagree with it, I tell them why I do. And the 1/1s from Humility I do indeed get back to a lot, since that's the major downside with the card. If it had read "All creatures lose all abilities and are 0/0" it would change my opinion on the card drastically
Anyway, I did a little shopping and some testing today. Here's my updated list which did quite well when I tested it tonight:
4 Flooded Strand
3 Island
2 Plains
4 Polluted Delta
1 Seat of the Synod
1 Tolaria West
4 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Brainstorm
3 Enlightened Tutor
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Daze
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Sword of the Meek
2 Thopter Foundry
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Humility
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Batterskull
4 Force of Will
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Pithing Needle
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Aura of Silence
1 Seal of Cleansing
1 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Spell Pierce
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Perish
Engineered Explosives with the black splash was an absolute bomb, and I can see why everyone uses it. I personally prefer Humility over Moat because I prefer to shut all creatures off rather than prevent an admittedly large group of creatures from attacking me. Plus, Qasali Pridemage is everywhere in my meta. I do see the merits of using Moat, but for now I think Humility does the job just fine.
A few concerns I have with my list:
- Does Daze fit in the deck at all? I'm torn on including it over other counterspells like Spell Snare and Counterspell.
- Running 2 Stoneforge Mystic and 4 Counterbalance. Should that be 3 Stoneforge Mystic and 3 Counterbalance?
- How is my sideboard? I think it's a lot better than it was before, but I'm not 100% sure of some of the cards in it (like Vendilion Clique, even if I love the card, and the extra Stoneforge Mystic and Jace, the Mind Sculptor).
Special thanks to Hakai Studios and SushiOtter for the sig!
Legacy: UR Sneak and Show I UBG Team America I X Metalworker MUD
Modern: UBR Blue Jund I WBX Eldrazi Processors I X Affinity I WRG Nacatl Burn I GR Tron I UBR Grishoalbrand
I haven't gotten to play Legacy so I still have the Moat and the humility. I think that if you are playing Moat, it's a good idea to have humility in the board still. Moat's inability to shut down Emrakul is the only thing that scares me at this point- though Thopter Sword is good against those tentacles. Humility also gets worse with more creatures you play. I play none other than sideboard Cannonists. I disagree on why humility is good though. I think half of it's utility is that it's difficult to remove and half of it's utility is shutting down abilities. Humility is much less effective on the board but there are some times wherein it is much more powerful. Moat without Pithing Needle is less effective but either with Thopter Sword is very good- humility is the better of the two with Thopter Sword.
The fact that Dismember costs three is very cute. Hadn't thought of that!
Against BUG, Moon is so much better than B2B. B2B gives them outs. Moon and their dead.
I don't think Stoneforge is bad at all- but with the way I've constructed my deck, I'd rather not include both and I think Moat is better verse fish, especially with the inclusion of Dismember in Fish lists.
I think 4 Tops are necessary. I can understand cutting one for the 3rd or 4th Enlightened Tutor as I think that card is also extremely powerful. I've had times where I've got a Top in play and two Tops floating on top with a Top in hand, with myself just waiting for a way to shuffle but the times where I can keep a hand because it has the Top and it alone spins the game in my favor far outnumbers that. When I ran 3 Top 4 Tutor, the Tutor was just getting the Top more than half the time.
@Grand Superior
Daze is really only potentially warranted against Storm which this deck is alright against that and Stifle is probably better there and elsewhere. The tempo loss from Daze is just horrible against aggro unless it's backing up a Stoneforge.
I'd love to make room for Tiago (and Stoneforge) but I just don't see it happening, unfortunately.
@Goliat
I think the text provided in discussions is fine. I think the amount of text provided with your Daily report was too much. Consider breaking up that text in the future as well as not needing to be quite as thorough. Having access to a playback feature on the games means that you can be more thorough but it doesn't mean you should because it's hard to pinpoint exactly what is relevant.
Lastly, one of the best uses for Seat of the Synod that I've found is it's ability to play around Crypt, Spellbomb, and Relic that all aim to exile your Sword of the Meek in response to its trigger. If you have Bridge, Needle, or something else then sometimes you're okay but I like that a land has the added versatility of avoiding those gravehates by saccing to Thopter Foundry. Worse case scenario you can sac the Foundry but that kind of hurts (unless you have Academy Ruins, another great versatility land).
L1 Judge