I think if we took the 10 "best" and most established (and 100% "finished") cubes on the forum, put it into a spreadsheet and made note of all cards that were seen 10/10 times (and even some that were 8 or 9/10) we'd have a good idea of what the "staple" cards are. We could vote on which 10 cubes make the cut for the project, and then go from there. Let the numbers do the talking.
Eidolon and Silent Edge are both good with numbers, and they could work on the project. Eidolon could probably come up with the list in like 20 minutes once the cubes are decided... he's a freakin' Wizard with his Java magic.
Yeah, if you wanted a true staple list I think you just have to take a variety of 'normal' cubes (not C/U, multiplayer, new/old border only) to see which cards truly are staples and should not be omitted/discussed at all. Any card that can be argued about its inclusion should not be on that list, so I would say 10/10 or 14/15 (might be a list missing cards because of cost, talk to owner to see if they would include it with extra funding?)
I think if a card can be reasonably argued against inclusion, it shouldn't be on a staple list (Lightning Bolt vs. Shock/Seal of Fire, e.g.)
I think if we took the 10 "best" and most established (and 100% "finished") cubes on the forum, put it into a spreadsheet and made note of all cards that were seen 10/10 times (and even some that were 8 or 9/10) we'd have a good idea of what the "staple" cards are. We could vote on which 10 cubes make the cut for the project, and then go from there. Let the numbers do the talking.
Eidolon and Silent Edge are both good with numbers, and they could work on the project. Eidolon could probably come up with the list in like 20 minutes once the cubes are decided... he's a freakin' Wizard with his Java magic.
Since I already intended my cube comparator to be used for more than 2 cubes, modifying it accordingly shouldn't be a problem.
The we only need to vote on a list of the best cubes here (probably in different categories like 360/450/720 (un)powered). I think we can skip the low budget cubes, since there is already an attempt to build the 200$ cube.
So, how do we get this started?
Criteria:
The cube has to be "finished" (or at least the list needs to be "optimum").
I'll volunteer my cube as one of the 10 for the project, and I'd like to see Usman's cube and Konfusius' cube as two of the other 9... but how do we vote for something like this?
We come up with a list of all the eligible cubes, and then people vote for the 3 "ideal" lists they'd like to see used in the exercise, and we take the 10 that get the most votes?
The cube has to be "finished" (or at least the list needs to be "optimum").
I'll volunteer my cube as one of the 10 for the project, and I'd like to see Usman's cube and Konfusius' cube as two of the other 9... but how do we vote for something like this?
We come up with a list of all the eligible cubes, and then people vote for the 3 "ideal" lists they'd like to see used in the exercise, and we take the 10 that get the most votes?
Which lists should be eligible to receive votes?
What about sizes? Should it be like 3 small (360-500), 3 medium (500-720), 3 large (720+), and a wild card?
Should it only be powered cubes, or also non-powered?
In what way do we vote? Maybe a poll?
And finally I think each person should have atleast 5 votes.
You realy like doing votings Don't you think the results of this Top10 cubes is reflected in the PRE data? From the PRE data you could generate a "cube staple list" without another round of votings. In every category voted, the values start to decrease significantly at a certain point and there you just cut off the lists and more or less the cube staples should remain. Just my thoughts...
What about sizes? Should it be like 3 small (360-500), 3 medium (500-720), 3 large (720+), and a wild card?
Should it only be powered cubes, or also non-powered?
In what way do we vote? Maybe a poll?
And finally I think each person should have atleast 5 votes.
Cool, so everybody will vote on their 5 favorite cubes, and we can tally the votes.
Size shouldn't matter, and neither should powered/unpowered. The "staple" cards (which is the point of this project) will be found in all of them. C/U cubes won't really work though, as lots of cube staples are rarity restrictive.
I think the only real criteria needs to be that the cube list is "finished" and the manager isn't still planning on replacing a bunch of stuff from the cube with better cards. That wouldn't do us any good to use an unfinished list to determine staples.
I like the idea of comparing 'finished/optimum' cubes, but I strongly dislike the idea of first selecting the perceived 'best' or most popular cubes and only using these for the comparison. You're just skewing the results before even starting to compare the cubes, the resulting data will be predictable and not very useful.
Is there a limit to the number of cubes processed by the comparison tool? If not really, just accept any cube list presented as 'optimum' by its owner(s). The data will speak for itself.
I like the idea of comparing 'finished/optimum' cubes, but I strongly dislike the idea of first selecting the perceived 'best' or most popular cubes and only using these for the comparison. You're just skewing the results before even starting to compare the cubes, the resulting data will be predictable and not very useful.
Is there a limit to the number of cubes processed by the comparison tool? If not really, just accept any cube list presented as 'optimum' by its owner(s). The data will speak for itself.
True. Every cube that is considered "done" should be up for consideration. But if the people vote on the cubes that get represented, the cube data should reflect what the folks consider to be the best cards in the end anyways. 10 cubes is a lot to compile common data. The best cards from the 10 best cubes WILL be the best cards.
The cube has to be "finished" (or at least the list needs to be "optimum").
I'll volunteer my cube as one of the 10 for the project, and I'd like to see Usman's cube and Konfusius' cube as two of the other 9... but how do we vote for something like this?
We come up with a list of all the eligible cubes, and then people vote for the 3 "ideal" lists they'd like to see used in the exercise, and we take the 10 that get the most votes?
Which lists should be eligible to receive votes?
I would probably use cube's of the most active members of the community.
I'm not totally happy with the list of names though. There are a few more names I would like to see, but I wouldn't be sad to see a list made up of those names.
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Why would we have to differentiate between cubes of different sizes? The staples should be even in the smallest cubes or they wouldn't be staples.
If a card only makes it into 500+, chances are that it isn't a staple.
Just hold every cube next to each other and see which cards make the most appearances. Oh, and i +1 Fredo here. The more cubes we use, the better. I suggest using every cube in the Sticky thread.
If your going to use every thread, I would suggest cutting out the cubes that at the very least don't have worldwake updated yet. No use including non up to date cubes.
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I don't know if my cube's to large for this excercise, but it's almost done (99% done). I think I need 5-10 cards before I consider it complete (which in my case means that my cube includes the top 900 cards in magics history).
I don't know what other people's "goal" is, as to when they say their cube's complete.
The fact that it is actually hard to cut the list down to ten made me realize how active this forum is. This exercise will be interesting to read. The true staples will show up no matter which ten lists are chosen, so the voting isn't too important, but I guess you can do that. It seems weird to include EE in there, as his cube is more famous than all of the cubes in this forum. If the goal is to provide the consensus among it's members and to show an alternative to other popular cube building disciplines then EE fits neither.
Come to think about it, I did something like this last November. I was using Google documents and I eventually got to the point where it told me I was using too many cells. So Iquit. But this is what I had then.
Interested in the results but my list obivously doesn't qualify. There are too many definite includes that I still need to snag (i.e. Kokusho) or haven't proxied yet (power, etc.).
i don't really know how much work would have to go into it but if it's possible i think the more cubes the better. if it's just a matter of cutting and pasting into a program that does the math for you, it should probably include as many finished cubes as can be fit.
When I see Healing Salve, I'm often like "Oh girl, I wish I could turn every card into this." Thanks they removed the gain life part, otherwise this would have been broken.
1. Take as many cubes as you want. These should each be "near-optimal". My cube would be a bad example to use, for instance.
2. Compare the data.
3. Make a list of the most-used cards.
4. Because there are bound to be slight variations, use something like 90% of the number of total cubes as a cut-off line. (Anything making it into less than 18 of 20 total cubes should not be considered a staple)
Small cubes are definitely going to make that cut-off line pretty harsh. I don't imagine you'd get more than 15-20 cards per color that make 90% of the lists if you include 360 cubes, though maybe more if there aren't more than 10 cubes compared. The more cubes you compare, the harsher that cut-off line gets, and the more data you'll have available if you wanted to look at different percentages (if say, you wanted to see what gets added when you go from 90% of cubes to 75% of cubes).
I agree with eidolon, we should use as much data as we can - that is, not only as many cubes as possible but also additional information about this cubes.
People exclude cards for various reasons and that should be taken into account. So there should be a difference between not running a card because one thinks it is not good enough vs. not running a card because of some restriction. I know kcolloran said he does not run Vindicate for monetary reasons, nevertheless he considers it a cube staple. I do not run Damnation because I do not run color-shifted cards, but I do not exclude it for power reasons. Vincentgold's group has voted Armageddon out etc.
One way to address this would be this:
1. Someone (eidolon :tongue:) specifies a simple format for cube lists.
2. All who are interested hand in a list in the specified format.
3. Someone (look, it's eidolon!) publishes a list of all the cards that were on one or more lists.
4. All who submitted a cube list now submit a list of all the cards from step 3 that they do not run due to some self-imposed restriction
5. Someone (who might that be, now?) calculates a score for every card from step 3 taking into account the restrictions from step 4 and extracts a list of cube staples by applying some threshold on this score. Voilà, the list of cube staples.
Why even bother doing this then? You will get ZERO surprises from this exercise.
The results aren't for me. They're for other folks that want to see what the "best" cube managers consider to be staples. I know what they are, and you might too... doesn't mean that the information wouldn't be helpful for someone else.
The results aren't for me. They're for other folks that want to see what the "best" cube managers consider to be staples.
No... the idea is to compare cubes and see what cards appear in most cubes. To that end, the more data, the better.
I will be submitting a medium-sized, 'finished' power cube with cards up to and including RoE. I just need to update my thread with this weekend's changes.
Eidolon and Silent Edge are both good with numbers, and they could work on the project. Eidolon could probably come up with the list in like 20 minutes once the cubes are decided... he's a freakin' Wizard with his Java magic.
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I think if a card can be reasonably argued against inclusion, it shouldn't be on a staple list (Lightning Bolt vs. Shock/Seal of Fire, e.g.)
Just my 2 cents.
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This is a fantastic idea.
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So, how do we get this started?
Criteria:
The cube has to be "finished" (or at least the list needs to be "optimum").
I'll volunteer my cube as one of the 10 for the project, and I'd like to see Usman's cube and Konfusius' cube as two of the other 9... but how do we vote for something like this?
We come up with a list of all the eligible cubes, and then people vote for the 3 "ideal" lists they'd like to see used in the exercise, and we take the 10 that get the most votes?
Which lists should be eligible to receive votes?
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
What about sizes? Should it be like 3 small (360-500), 3 medium (500-720), 3 large (720+), and a wild card?
Should it only be powered cubes, or also non-powered?
In what way do we vote? Maybe a poll?
And finally I think each person should have atleast 5 votes.
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http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/deck-creation-modern/773885-sultai-deaths-shadow-bug-aggro]
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Cool, so everybody will vote on their 5 favorite cubes, and we can tally the votes.
Size shouldn't matter, and neither should powered/unpowered. The "staple" cards (which is the point of this project) will be found in all of them. C/U cubes won't really work though, as lots of cube staples are rarity restrictive.
I think the only real criteria needs to be that the cube list is "finished" and the manager isn't still planning on replacing a bunch of stuff from the cube with better cards. That wouldn't do us any good to use an unfinished list to determine staples.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
Is there a limit to the number of cubes processed by the comparison tool? If not really, just accept any cube list presented as 'optimum' by its owner(s). The data will speak for itself.
True. Every cube that is considered "done" should be up for consideration. But if the people vote on the cubes that get represented, the cube data should reflect what the folks consider to be the best cards in the end anyways. 10 cubes is a lot to compile common data. The best cards from the 10 best cubes WILL be the best cards.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
I would probably use cube's of the most active members of the community.
A first draft of a list of 10 would probably be.
SilentEdge
Calibretto
Wtwlf
Usman
Pringlesman
Konfusious
DerBk
Eidolon232
Magicmerl
Erwins cube?
I'm not totally happy with the list of names though. There are a few more names I would like to see, but I wouldn't be sad to see a list made up of those names.
Calvin and Hobbes
Cube Tutor
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I think this list should be fine.
Not sure if MisterOrange updates his cube with newest expansion RoE till lateR?
My cube is updated to RoE as well but no bigs if you use it or not.
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If your going to use every thread, I would suggest cutting out the cubes that at the very least don't have worldwake updated yet. No use including non up to date cubes.
Calvin and Hobbes
Cube Tutor
I thought the comparison was done by a tool? This tool shouldn't care about how much data it gets to digest.
Well, we already know what cards those are. Why even bother doing this then? You will get ZERO surprises from this exercise.
If it's done this way, I just don't see the point.
I don't know what other people's "goal" is, as to when they say their cube's complete.
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I think that list is fine as well. A good group of solid forum cubes as well as Evan's cube to add a bit of an outside influence to the results.
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Cube Tutor
1. Take as many cubes as you want. These should each be "near-optimal". My cube would be a bad example to use, for instance.
2. Compare the data.
3. Make a list of the most-used cards.
4. Because there are bound to be slight variations, use something like 90% of the number of total cubes as a cut-off line. (Anything making it into less than 18 of 20 total cubes should not be considered a staple)
Small cubes are definitely going to make that cut-off line pretty harsh. I don't imagine you'd get more than 15-20 cards per color that make 90% of the lists if you include 360 cubes, though maybe more if there aren't more than 10 cubes compared. The more cubes you compare, the harsher that cut-off line gets, and the more data you'll have available if you wanted to look at different percentages (if say, you wanted to see what gets added when you go from 90% of cubes to 75% of cubes).
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People exclude cards for various reasons and that should be taken into account. So there should be a difference between not running a card because one thinks it is not good enough vs. not running a card because of some restriction. I know kcolloran said he does not run Vindicate for monetary reasons, nevertheless he considers it a cube staple. I do not run Damnation because I do not run color-shifted cards, but I do not exclude it for power reasons. Vincentgold's group has voted Armageddon out etc.
One way to address this would be this:
1. Someone (eidolon :tongue:) specifies a simple format for cube lists.
2. All who are interested hand in a list in the specified format.
3. Someone (look, it's eidolon!) publishes a list of all the cards that were on one or more lists.
4. All who submitted a cube list now submit a list of all the cards from step 3 that they do not run due to some self-imposed restriction
5. Someone (who might that be, now?) calculates a score for every card from step 3 taking into account the restrictions from step 4 and extracts a list of cube staples by applying some threshold on this score. Voilà, the list of cube staples.
"What am I looking at? Ashes, dead man."
The results aren't for me. They're for other folks that want to see what the "best" cube managers consider to be staples. I know what they are, and you might too... doesn't mean that the information wouldn't be helpful for someone else.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
No... the idea is to compare cubes and see what cards appear in most cubes. To that end, the more data, the better.
I will be submitting a medium-sized, 'finished' power cube with cards up to and including RoE. I just need to update my thread with this weekend's changes.
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