I will have all mono-red multiplayer decks running Wild Ricochet by mid-2012! I demand it!
Now a little more seriously, if you're running Past in Flames I'd be thinking bigger. YawgWin always worked better when you had mana sources in your graveyard. For this reason, I'd be thinking of Rite of Flames, Seething Songs et al... they'll accelerate you in the short term, but they'll be bonkers when you resolve PiF. And if you don't need the acceleration at the time, they become four to the face in Chandra's hands.
Also, one out of left-field to consider... I like having something big, surprising and flying in these decks, just as an alternate finisher. I've always loved Volcanic Dragon, and he's back and easily available for this usage. Always results in at least four damage to somebody, and will live through just about all of your blanket damage spells.
This deck needs more global effects and protection. You have a lot of targeted burn, which is incredibly weak in multiplayer. It's barely reliable as removal and it's all but worthless when it comes to killing people. You might take a player, but then you're just out of gas and out of the game.
So yeah, in terms of defense, you have a few options. The 2 best, in my mind, are Ensnaring Bridge and Glacial Chasm. The Chasm is a monstrously absurd card in multiplayer burn decks. It's so easy to drop one into play while you're still at 8 or so life and kill everyone in the next 2 turns while being completely invulnerable while doing so. Ensnaring Bridge is very good too, especially when you deck has Bottled Cloister (or Grafted Skullcap) to draw you extra cards but also keep your handy empty to prevent creature-based assaults. I much prefer these draw spells over your Crown by the way. Aether Membrane is ok, but it's nowhere near as strong as the other options.
In terms of better burn to use, again, you have tons of options. Acidic Soil is awesome, Flame Rift is brutal, more Pyrohemias are good, Fault Line is stellar, Flame Break beats Slagstorm, Breath of Darigaaz, etc. More Earthquakes too, like 4 of them is fine! The idea here is that you should move away from targeted burn and rely on global burn if possible.
If you're going all out on Valakut, Shivan Gorge is a great land to consider using.
Past in Flames has massive potential with rituals and X spells. Mana Geyser can do absurd things with it, I can just imagine turns where you Earthquake for a billion while sitting behind a Glacial Chasm.
I will have all mono-red multiplayer decks running Wild Ricochet by mid-2012! I demand it!
Wild Ricochet looks awesome, I don't own any copies at the moment but I'll keep it in mind for trading.
Now a little more seriously, if you're running Past in Flames I'd be thinking bigger. YawgWin always worked better when you had mana sources in your graveyard. For this reason, I'd be thinking of Rite of Flames, Seething Songs et al... they'll accelerate you in the short term, but they'll be bonkers when you resolve PiF. And if you don't need the acceleration at the time, they become four to the face in Chandra's hands.
Also, one out of left-field to consider... I like having something big, surprising and flying in these decks, just as an alternate finisher. I've always loved Volcanic Dragon, and he's back and easily available for this usage. Always results in at least four damage to somebody, and will live through just about all of your blanket damage spells.
I'm sure I can dig through my collection to find a big flyer on the cheap.
Quote from tich »
The 2 best, in my mind, are Ensnaring Bridge and Glacial Chasm. The Chasm is a monstrously absurd card in multiplayer burn decks. It's so easy to drop one into play while you're still at 8 or so life and kill everyone in the next 2 turns while being completely invulnerable while doing so.
I just so happen to have a copy of Glacial Chasm in my binder, consider it added.
Everlasting Torment + Vulshok Refugee have bad synergy together. You might to consider cutting one of the cards.
The Refugee is mostly for defense anyway, since I can wipe the board without worrying about him, he can trade for nearly any creature that has been withered down. I like the two in the deck, probably won't change until it proves disastrous haha.
Past in Flames has massive potential with rituals and X spells. Mana Geyser can do absurd things with it, I can just imagine turns where you Earthquake for a billion while sitting behind a Glacial Chasm.
I guess my question is why not just run something like Sulfuric Vortex to hose lifegain, put a clock on people, and not kill your refugees (which makes your Pyrohemias and Chain Reactions stronger).
I'm not sure if Rite of Flame is the way to go. Your deck has no draw and thus has no real real way to make some big, explosive play. The Legacy decks that use Past in Flames usually use it for storm count and for playing a Burning Wish off of a Mox/Lotus Petal. It's never used used because it's the "go-to" ritual card or anything. I dunno, it just feels like it's much weaker than something like Mana Geyser that has the potential to just end games.
I guess my question is why not just run something like Sulfuric Vortex to hose lifegain, put a clock on people, and not kill your refugees (which makes your Pyrohemias and Chain Reactions stronger).
I don't currently own any, but I'll look into picking some up as they're 1-2$ rares.
I'm not sure if Rite of Flame is the way to go. Your deck has no draw and thus has no real real way to make some big, explosive play. The Legacy decks that use Past in Flames usually use it for storm count and for playing a Burning Wish off of a Mox/Lotus Petal. It's never used used because it's the "go-to" ritual card or anything. I dunno, it just feels like it's much weaker than something like Mana Geyser that has the potential to just end games.
Would you recommend Seething Song or Mana Geyser, and how many of each? I usually play 4 player, so Mana Geyser might be risky, especially in the later stages when there are fewer players.
All of the options are pretty bad atm since your deck isn't built to support them. Like I said, I like them in big Red decks filled with X spells and Glacial Chasms, not small Red decks filled with Lightning Bolts. Your deck would need a fairly serious makeover before it could truly capitalize on these kinds of cards. Swapping out Bursts for 4 Rituals isn't going to cut it.
All of the options are pretty bad atm since your deck isn't built to support them. Like I said, I like them in big Red decks filled with X spells and Glacial Chasms, not small Red decks filled with Lightning Bolts. Your deck would need a fairly serious makeover before it could truly capitalize on these kinds of cards. Swapping out Bursts for 4 Rituals isn't going to cut it.
Alrighty, the deck will remain as-is for the time being. I should be playing this week sometime so I'll be able to get some testing in.
I've put together a pretty casual multi red deck to plat around with in the last few weeks and i've got to say that Sulfuric Vortex is a just too good. Screws up all kinds of long term plans.
I've also used Aether Flash. Great cards as a single but 2 or more on the field just turns some creature decks off leaving them dead in the water.
Finally I've got to put Jokulaups up for a deck slot. I've been running it as a singleton and it's always good. Especially if you have some enchantment based defense / offense on the board.
Made a couple changes before playing with this list the other night. I added 2 more Earthquakes cutting two Burst Lightning for them.
Gotta say that Glacial Chasm is so worth it, if you're playing red, and have huge damage all players spells, run it.
Played a 5 player game with it and killed 3 opponents while at 1 life behind a Glacial Chasm. My last opponent couldn't actually kill me that turn but I died in my next upkeep to Mindstorm Crown. Chandra Ablaze was great with her -2, and her +1 gets rid of pesky lands when you need an empty hand for Crown.
4x Vulshok Refugee
1x Obsidian Fireheart
Instants: 7
4x Lightning Bolt
1x Burst Lightning
1x Volcanic Fallout
1x Comet Storm
Sorceries: 10
2x Sizzle
2x Slagstorm
1x Chain Reaction
3x Earthquake
1x Rekindled Flames
1x Past in Flames
3x Sulfuric Vortex
2x Quest for Pure Flame
2x Pyrohemia
Artifacts: 6
2x Mindstorm Crown
2x Expedition Map
2x Wanderer's Twig
Planeswalkers: 1
1x Chandra Ablaze
1x Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
1x Glacial Chasm
22x Mountain
Changelog:
13-11-11:
-2 Shrine of Burning Rage
-1 Pyroclasm
-1 Fire Servant
+2 Slagstorm
+1 Everlasting Torment
+1 Pyrohemia
14-11-11:
-1 Mountain
+1 Glacial Chasm
07-12-11:
-2 Burst Lightning
+2 Earthquake
03-01-12:
-2 Everlasting Torment
-1 Burst Lightning
+3 Sulfuric Vortex
Multiplayer:
MonoBlack
Mono-Red
Cycling
Crush of Wurms
Zoo
Immortal Coil
Control
Reanimator
Mono-G
Cruel Ascension
Landfall
Esper Spirits/Tokens
Phantom Vigor
Not Explicitly Multiplayer:
Allies
Bant
Artifacts
Now a little more seriously, if you're running Past in Flames I'd be thinking bigger. YawgWin always worked better when you had mana sources in your graveyard. For this reason, I'd be thinking of Rite of Flames, Seething Songs et al... they'll accelerate you in the short term, but they'll be bonkers when you resolve PiF. And if you don't need the acceleration at the time, they become four to the face in Chandra's hands.
Also, one out of left-field to consider... I like having something big, surprising and flying in these decks, just as an alternate finisher. I've always loved Volcanic Dragon, and he's back and easily available for this usage. Always results in at least four damage to somebody, and will live through just about all of your blanket damage spells.
My Stupidly Large Number of Current Decks
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The Multiplayer Power Rankings
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So yeah, in terms of defense, you have a few options. The 2 best, in my mind, are Ensnaring Bridge and Glacial Chasm. The Chasm is a monstrously absurd card in multiplayer burn decks. It's so easy to drop one into play while you're still at 8 or so life and kill everyone in the next 2 turns while being completely invulnerable while doing so. Ensnaring Bridge is very good too, especially when you deck has Bottled Cloister (or Grafted Skullcap) to draw you extra cards but also keep your handy empty to prevent creature-based assaults. I much prefer these draw spells over your Crown by the way. Aether Membrane is ok, but it's nowhere near as strong as the other options.
In terms of better burn to use, again, you have tons of options. Acidic Soil is awesome, Flame Rift is brutal, more Pyrohemias are good, Fault Line is stellar, Flame Break beats Slagstorm, Breath of Darigaaz, etc. More Earthquakes too, like 4 of them is fine! The idea here is that you should move away from targeted burn and rely on global burn if possible.
Misc. thoughts:
Everlasting Torment + Vulshok Refugee have bad synergy together. You might to consider cutting one of the cards.
If you're going all out on Valakut, Shivan Gorge is a great land to consider using.
Past in Flames has massive potential with rituals and X spells. Mana Geyser can do absurd things with it, I can just imagine turns where you Earthquake for a billion while sitting behind a Glacial Chasm.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
Wild Ricochet looks awesome, I don't own any copies at the moment but I'll keep it in mind for trading.
I have 4 Rite of Flames sitting around, I'll toss them in over the Burst Lightning?
I'm sure I can dig through my collection to find a big flyer on the cheap.
I just so happen to have a copy of Glacial Chasm in my binder, consider it added.
The Refugee is mostly for defense anyway, since I can wipe the board without worrying about him, he can trade for nearly any creature that has been withered down. I like the two in the deck, probably won't change until it proves disastrous haha.
Adding 4x Rite of Flame over 4x Burst Lightning
Multiplayer:
MonoBlack
Mono-Red
Cycling
Crush of Wurms
Zoo
Immortal Coil
Control
Reanimator
Mono-G
Cruel Ascension
Landfall
Esper Spirits/Tokens
Phantom Vigor
Not Explicitly Multiplayer:
Allies
Bant
Artifacts
I'm not sure if Rite of Flame is the way to go. Your deck has no draw and thus has no real real way to make some big, explosive play. The Legacy decks that use Past in Flames usually use it for storm count and for playing a Burning Wish off of a Mox/Lotus Petal. It's never used used because it's the "go-to" ritual card or anything. I dunno, it just feels like it's much weaker than something like Mana Geyser that has the potential to just end games.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
I don't currently own any, but I'll look into picking some up as they're 1-2$ rares.
Would you recommend Seething Song or Mana Geyser, and how many of each? I usually play 4 player, so Mana Geyser might be risky, especially in the later stages when there are fewer players.
Multiplayer:
MonoBlack
Mono-Red
Cycling
Crush of Wurms
Zoo
Immortal Coil
Control
Reanimator
Mono-G
Cruel Ascension
Landfall
Esper Spirits/Tokens
Phantom Vigor
Not Explicitly Multiplayer:
Allies
Bant
Artifacts
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
Alrighty, the deck will remain as-is for the time being. I should be playing this week sometime so I'll be able to get some testing in.
Multiplayer:
MonoBlack
Mono-Red
Cycling
Crush of Wurms
Zoo
Immortal Coil
Control
Reanimator
Mono-G
Cruel Ascension
Landfall
Esper Spirits/Tokens
Phantom Vigor
Not Explicitly Multiplayer:
Allies
Bant
Artifacts
We'll be right here to yell at you when you come back and tell us how poorly you fared.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
Multiplayer:
MonoBlack
Mono-Red
Cycling
Crush of Wurms
Zoo
Immortal Coil
Control
Reanimator
Mono-G
Cruel Ascension
Landfall
Esper Spirits/Tokens
Phantom Vigor
Not Explicitly Multiplayer:
Allies
Bant
Artifacts
I've also used Aether Flash. Great cards as a single but 2 or more on the field just turns some creature decks off leaving them dead in the water.
Finally I've got to put Jokulaups up for a deck slot. I've been running it as a singleton and it's always good. Especially if you have some enchantment based defense / offense on the board.
Gotta say that Glacial Chasm is so worth it, if you're playing red, and have huge damage all players spells, run it.
Played a 5 player game with it and killed 3 opponents while at 1 life behind a Glacial Chasm. My last opponent couldn't actually kill me that turn but I died in my next upkeep to Mindstorm Crown. Chandra Ablaze was great with her -2, and her +1 gets rid of pesky lands when you need an empty hand for Crown.
Multiplayer:
MonoBlack
Mono-Red
Cycling
Crush of Wurms
Zoo
Immortal Coil
Control
Reanimator
Mono-G
Cruel Ascension
Landfall
Esper Spirits/Tokens
Phantom Vigor
Not Explicitly Multiplayer:
Allies
Bant
Artifacts